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dozu
10-28-2011, 05:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIF-UaRUd6k&feature=related

I can see this has the advantage of better coiling.... but I have no idea how to control the arm motion and the release point...

any good tips on what the arm motion should feel like, and where you let go the ball?

currently I use a straight up toss, which feels like a basketball lay up.... it's reliable, but feels awkward if I try to coil more.

pyrokid
10-28-2011, 08:39 PM
Hey, that's what I do! My coaches have always told me it was dumb though. Might just be one of those things that's great if you practice full time like a pro, but not-so-great for the rest of us...

spacediver
10-28-2011, 09:27 PM
not a big fan of that video: the claim that the tossing arm is parallel to baseline is not backed up by the footage all the time. First of all, a lot of the serves were from the ad court, which has different geometrical considerations relative to serving from the deuce court.

Secondly, we don't know if these were kick serves or flat serves. With kick serves, a parallel tossing arm can easily bring the ball into a good position, but for a flat serve where you want the toss ahead more, perhaps these players would have not used a parallel tossing arm.

Finally, and most notoriously, this guy describes angles that don't even match up to the footage - sometimes it's impossible to tell what the actual angle is because of the camera angle, and sometimes it seems as if the angle is NOT parallel yet he claims it is.

spacediver
10-28-2011, 10:45 PM
also see this thread here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=390016

charliefedererer
10-29-2011, 06:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIF-UaRUd6k&feature=related

I can see this has the advantage of better coiling.... but I have no idea how to control the arm motion and the release point...

any good tips on what the arm motion should feel like, and where you let go the ball?

currently I use a straight up toss, which feels like a basketball lay up.... it's reliable, but feels awkward if I try to coil more.

The ball is released quite high, and the tossing arm has a "follow through" continuing to move up at the same rate as before release, continuing to let the tossing arm go straight up:

http://www.optimumtennis.net/images/pete-sampras-serves.jpg

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00506/AVN_EYEONTHEBALL_506606f.jpg


The arm is not kept "perfectly" parallel to the baseline, only nearly so. For the first serve the arm has to be brought forward slightly to toss the ball into the court:

http://i48.tinypic.com/2mpa7if.jpg

http://www.mftenniscoaching.co.uk/Motion%20Expert/federer.jpg

dozu
10-29-2011, 07:06 PM
thanks charlie!

tennis_balla
10-30-2011, 12:47 AM
This has been posted before but a great video and the guy is correct. I know this caused a bit of a sh*tstorm here last time but that just shows lack of understanding from those posters.

dozu
10-30-2011, 04:39 AM
I think I get it..

the release is still at the 'basketball lay up' position, but at the beginning, don't stick the tossing hand out into the court, so the body can stay closed.

tennis_balla
10-30-2011, 05:07 AM
Its rather simple, if you want shoulder/core rotation in your serve you have to toss parallel with the baseline. Otherwise, if you toss the old way thats taught, out in front you'll have to toss, then turn. Tossing parallel with the baseline you're coiling and tossing at the same time, which is what the pros in the video are doing. Just try it in your living room and it'll make perfect sense.

Photoshop
10-30-2011, 05:29 AM
my toss is better than federer's. His is flawed and his technique is inferior.

5263
10-30-2011, 08:20 AM
not a big fan of that video: the claim that the tossing arm is parallel to baseline is not backed up by the footage all the time. First of all, a lot of the serves were from the ad court, which has different geometrical considerations relative to serving from the deuce court.

Secondly, we don't know if these were kick serves or flat serves. With kick serves, a parallel tossing arm can easily bring the ball into a good position, but for a flat serve where you want the toss ahead more, perhaps these players would have not used a parallel tossing arm.

Finally, and most notoriously, this guy describes angles that don't even match up to the footage - sometimes it's impossible to tell what the actual angle is because of the camera angle, and sometimes it seems as if the angle is NOT parallel yet he claims it is.

Like many cases here, we are creating controversy where none exist.

You are entirely correct that trying to always toss perfectly aligned with the baseline is not exactly accurate.
The guy in the vid is reasonably on target with what he is trying to describe thought, as he throws in modifiers several times, that make it clear that he is only using the baseline as a rough guideline.
So just like his vid, your post is not entirely accurate, as you have misrepresented him to an extent.

On an Up note, I think the comments you make are excellent and important points to add to what is taught in that vid! and controversy seems to drive things, and it has brought attention to these important details.
It might have been better to post something like: good vid, but remember for the deuce court, the body will be at a slightly different angle and the tossing arm will stay the same relative to the body, taking a path that is more inside the baseline. Maybe you can state it much better than I did.

It may be also worth noting that the toss is 3 dimensional and the arm is also moving from starting at the inner thigh to move at a slant into the court that is about the angle of the body launch upwards into the court, but since the angles match pretty well, this also stays much the same relative to the body.
I think the intent of tossing the proper J path will take care of 90% of things for dozo.
Do you have a clear idea of the J path of the ball?

dozu
10-30-2011, 09:00 AM
Do you have a clear idea of the J path of the ball?

no I don't.

usually my tossing arm goes straight into the court, but I am gonna try from the 'parallel to baseline' position into the court.

dozu
10-30-2011, 04:00 PM
my toss is better than federer's. His is flawed and his technique is inferior.

ps - you are not on the '3.0 hack until proven innocent' list !

LeeD
10-31-2011, 09:17 AM
Rather than focusing and trying to figure out a figure of speech, consider this. The most important thing about a toss is YOU placing the ball in the desired hitting area while the rest of the body is in position to swing out at the ball.
Don't need to analyse all the different terminology, just toss the ball into a spot that allows your body to fully coil unto the ball depending on your desired KIND of serve and it's location.

arche3
10-31-2011, 10:33 AM
ps - you are not on the '3.0 hack until proven innocent' list !

yeah... lol at photoshop imitating some of the posters on here. :)

speaking of which. It's kinda quiet today. no arguments and no posts like "I am a rec players but I am better than Djoko" posts. But of course I AM really better than Wozniaki but that is for another thread.

arche3
10-31-2011, 10:34 AM
Rather than focusing and trying to figure out a figure of speech, consider this. The most important thing about a toss is YOU placing the ball in the desired hitting area while the rest of the body is in position to swing out at the ball.
Don't need to analyse all the different terminology, just toss the ball into a spot that allows your body to fully coil unto the ball depending on your desired KIND of serve and it's location.

like our big serving friend on TT magicicanoffprecision said... "I just toss the ball up and smack it" or something like that...:)

LeeD
10-31-2011, 11:22 AM
Kinda, but isn't that also what TennisBalla and LawMan said all along?
Get the ball off your toss to your exact best hitting location for the serve you want to make, no matter how.

tennis_balla
10-31-2011, 02:07 PM
I don't think I said that, however once you get your swing grooved all it requires is either swing away or like MagicPrecision says toss and hit the sh*t out of it. The trick is though, to be doing certain things correctly. The toss is a big one!

spacediver
10-31-2011, 11:58 PM
Its rather simple, if you want shoulder/core rotation in your serve you have to toss parallel with the baseline. Otherwise, if you toss the old way thats taught, out in front you'll have to toss, then turn. Tossing parallel with the baseline you're coiling and tossing at the same time, which is what the pros in the video are doing. Just try it in your living room and it'll make perfect sense.

Your shoulder joint can rotate with a large amount of independence from the rest of your body. There is nothing to prevent you from coiling your torso and hips without a parallel tossing arm (within limitations, of course!).

That said, I agree that it is MUCH more natural and comfortable to do so with a more parallel tossing arm (though, as has been pointed out in this thread, a perfectly parallel tossing arm makes it very hard to reliably toss the ball into the court).

spacediver
11-01-2011, 12:03 AM
Like many cases here, we are creating controversy where none exist.

You are entirely correct that trying to always toss perfectly aligned with the baseline is not exactly accurate.
The guy in the vid is reasonably on target with what he is trying to describe thought, as he throws in modifiers several times, that make it clear that he is only using the baseline as a rough guideline.
So just like his vid, your post is not entirely accurate, as you have misrepresented him to an extent.

On an Up note, I think the comments you make are excellent and important points to add to what is taught in that vid! and controversy seems to drive things, and it has brought attention to these important details.
It might have been better to post something like: good vid, but remember for the deuce court, the body will be at a slightly different angle and the tossing arm will stay the same relative to the body, taking a path that is more inside the baseline. Maybe you can state it much better than I did.

It may be also worth noting that the toss is 3 dimensional and the arm is also moving from starting at the inner thigh to move at a slant into the court that is about the angle of the body launch upwards into the court, but since the angles match pretty well, this also stays much the same relative to the body.
I think the intent of tossing the proper J path will take care of 90% of things for dozo.
Do you have a clear idea of the J path of the ball?

Thanks for the comments 5263.

Just to be clear, my post wasn't intended to argue for or against tossing in a certain way..

I'm still confused about what the J toss means. I understand that it involves a trajectory that is not simply up and down, but not sure what exactly the path is.

charliefedererer
11-03-2011, 06:40 AM
Thanks for the comments 5263.

Just to be clear, my post wasn't intended to argue for or against tossing in a certain way..

I'm still confused about what the J toss means. I understand that it involves a trajectory that is not simply up and down, but not sure what exactly the path is.

Check out the following clip of the Sampras J toss:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071023184108/www.operationdoubles.com/sampras_serve3.gif

[You probably see it immediately, but a hint in case you don't is that path the ball takes from moment it leaves the hand until it is struck is an upside down J.]




The great thing, is you don't have to know anything about projectile motion physics. You just toss the ball up and gravity will bring it down. (With a little practice, you'll toss it to the right spot.)

https://sites.google.com/site/anakamilledianamario/ProjectileMotion01-large.gif

spacediver
11-03-2011, 11:39 AM
thanks charlie... watching that gif I notice that the contact point of the ball is above his head (or at least where his head was before going into trophy), although when he makes contact, his shoulder isn't impinging because his torso is tilted laterally.

Is it possible to hit a really powerful flat serve by tossing so that the contact point is above your pretrophy head position (so long as you tilt your torso like in the above gif)?

TennisCJC
11-03-2011, 11:39 AM
Doesn't revolutionarytennis.com say to not use the J toss. Vic Braden advocated a J type toss in the 70s, but he said arm should to back and then into court and not exactly parallel to baseline - at least on 1st serves.

Revolutionary tennis goes with straight down and straight up approach on toss arm while racket arm loops back.

Brad Gilbert taught down, stick it in your pocket (figuratively), and then straight up.

Currently using the Revolutionary tech - pretty much straight down and not back behind front leg, then straight up and place it where you want it. Arm goes a bit (still mostly parallel) into court for 1st serve and more parallel to baseline for 2nd serve.

Toss is not my strong suit. I catch an errant toss about every other game I serve.

5263
11-03-2011, 01:12 PM
https://sites.google.com/site/anakamilledianamario/ProjectileMotion01-large.gif

I like the pic here of the upsidedown j path.

and maybe the Pete vid is even better.
Nice work

charliefedererer
11-04-2011, 08:08 AM
thanks charlie... watching that gif I notice that the contact point of the ball is above his head (or at least where his head was before going into trophy), although when he makes contact, his shoulder isn't impinging because his torso is tilted laterally.

Is it possible to hit a really powerful flat serve by tossing so that the contact point is above your pretrophy head position (so long as you tilt your torso like in the above gif)?

Conventional teaching has been that the most powerful "flat" first serve [which should still have plenty of side and top spin] comes from tossing the ball slightly into the court:

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/815/tennistoss.jpg

A topspin second serve is usually almost straight overhead.

But I would encourage you to keep experimenting, not only when practicing your serves, but also by observing the effect of your serve during a match.

For instance it might turn out for YOU that a straight overhead toss on a first serve may increase your first serve percentage significantly, and that could lead to more wins. (Also, some opponents just have more problems with a higher kick and "heavier" ball with more spin.)

And always realize that over time you may want to vary your first serve toss somewhat. For instance down 5-6 30-40 you may decide to toss less out into the court to be sure and get a first serve in against an opponent who has been teeing off on your second serve.

(And eventually you may want to deceive your opponent by keeping a more constant serve toss position, and varying the angle of your body tilt.)


As Julian recently posted, even the pros are constantly working on their serves, as Djoker famously did last year, and Rafa the year before:

Rafa Nadal, Uncle Toni and Oscar Borras. The Anatomy of a Service Change. How Rafa increased his serve by 19MPH in 2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GljqJv84tTI#