Is the "Roddick" motion really more stressful than the traditional motion?

[JennyS]

A lot of commentators, especially former players who used the traditional service motion have claimed Roddick's motion is harder on the shoulder than the regular serve. However, there are plenty of players with the "traditional" motion who have had serious shoulder injuries in recent years.

Is it possible that the longer windup, which requires much more use of the shoulder is actually the more stressful of the two. The Roddick motion is very similar to throwing a football. The other motion requires a long rotation and with all the repetitions, probably requires 50% more shoulder work that the other motion.

A lot of the current players are using the shorter motion now, so it will be interesting to see down the road if the players using the "Roddick motion" all wind up with bad shoulders.

[TwistServe]

You use your shoulders more by how much you turn your body, not how you take your racquet back. If Andy's serve is more stressful, which I doubt, it's not because of his takeback. Check out Dent's serve if you want to see a huge shoulder turn.. I don't think Andy's serve has very much shoulder turn as is.

[TheRed]

No, Roddick's motion is not harder on the shoulder. It's probably easier on the shoulder. A lot of stress on a shoulder comes from starting your swing before your arm is in correct position (one being most efficient and least stressful on the shoulder). The fact is the traditional motion takes a little more timing than Roddick's to get in that "correct" arm slot so if you're off, you can stress your shoulder more. Roddick's motion uses his legs more, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Critics of Roddick's serve may be able to play tennis, but that doesn't mean they know anything about biomechanics. All these people see is how explosive Roddick's motion and ball speed are and assume it's gotta be hard on the body.

[joe sch]

Roddicks motion is less stressful than the classic serving motions. Its simplified with the more straitup windup, less shoulder torqing and back twisting. You just need more explosive racket head speed with this shorter windup. Andy actually gets alot a flexiblity and back reach in his quicker windup so if done incorrectly, it could be more stressful on the arm, elbow and shoulder. Getting a good windup is still the key.

[Bungalo Bill]

A lot of commentators, especially former players who used the traditional service motion have claimed Roddick's motion is harder on the shoulder than the regular serve. However, there are plenty of players with the "traditional" motion who have had serious shoulder injuries in recent years.

Is it possible that the longer windup, which requires much more use of the shoulder is actually the more stressful of the two. The Roddick motion is very similar to throwing a football. The other motion requires a long rotation and with all the repetitions, probably requires 50% more shoulder work that the other motion.

A lot of the current players are using the shorter motion now, so it will be interesting to see down the road if the players using the "Roddick motion" all wind up with bad shoulders.

Well ROddick meets the ball very forward in the court. So the shoulder is in a strong position at impact. If Roddick was late and the toss was further back, I could see some shock from impact hurting his shoulder.

The other thing about Roddicks shoulder motion is how loose his shoulder is as the arm extends towards impact. He has "amazing" looseness in the shoulder area coupled with meeting the ball in front creates a huge power source to draw from through the ball.

What most people have trouble with on the serve is totally and completely relaxing the shoulder and arm area THROUGH impact. Most people tighten up just before impact - and dont know it.

If you get your tossing height and distance down, the rest is just learning to completely relax and letting the racquet be flung by your bodies motion into the ball.

I highly suggest you find the WAVE analogy for the serve I wrote, then get some slow motion clips on Roddicks serve. It will open your eyes.

[Gaines Hillix]

BBill, do you have a link to some clips of Roddick's server? Would love to have a look. :-)

[Bungalo Bill]

BBill, do you have a link to some clips of Roddick's server? Would love to have a look. :-)

I do have them, but I am not allowed to give them out my friend. They are the property of John Yandell. I also have no way of uploading them.

How is the world of racquets and strings doing? Glad to someone as knowledgable as you are here.

[efice32]

Andy Roddick: Serve
By Rick Macci

All the tennis experts and commentators say that the way Andy Roddick serves, he is going to hurt his shoulder. And I say they're all missing the point.

I think that all the people who analyze, and all the people that commentate on TV, and all the people that write, and the general public all say, "It looks like he's going to tear up his shoulder," because they're seeing this explosive, electrifying, accelerated motion, and all of a sudden there's an atomic bomb going off.

You know what? They said the same thing about Bjorn Borg when he first came in the game, that he's going to have elbow surgery because of how he whips that racket. And to my knowledge, 25 years later, he's never had elbow surgery. So the John Newcombes and Tony Traberts of the world, and all these other people, were a little off base in their analysis.

It's the same with Roddick. The perception is, boy, there's a lot of smoke there. There's a lot of electricity. They're seeing something they've never seen before. They don't really understand it and so the conclusion is, he's going to hurt his shoulder.

I don't see it. I don't see it whatsoever. When it comes to injuries, I'll tell you that sometimes the luck of the draw plays into it. You can have the best looking strokes in the world and hurt a shoulder or an elbow. It's not a beauty contest. It's not about cosmetics.

The fact that he has an abbreviated back swing is insignificant. In you look at the top players you can find many things in their serves that are far more idiosyncratic than Andy's.

When I see Andy get his racket up, it's perfect in my mind. He's very relaxed, he's going to go straight up with the racket, he's going to bend his knees, load it, get the racket in and out of the back, and Boom. Very simple. There's not a lot to go wrong.

The fact that everyone is missing is that Andy has tremendous, natural racket head speed. He gets his racket in and out of the back quicker than anybody on the pro tour. That's his serve. He had the same serve when he was 4'10". And nothing has really changed.

The textbook says that the arms should go down first and then up. And, there's nothing the matter with that and that's what I teach to most kids.

Andy on the other hand brings the arms straight up. That works for him, but it doesn't mean it's the right way or the wrong way. It's just a better way for him.

It's different, it's better for him. But actually, I don't think that his windup is the key to the success of his serve.

It's not the wind up or his turn, or the bending and the jumping that make his serve great. Sure those elements are all there and they are important. Check out John Yandell's article on Roddick's motion to see all those elements in detail. Click Here to Read John's analysis.

But in my mind, that's not what sets Roddick apart. What sets him apart is the fact that he gets in and out of the back faster than anyone else.

Andy has a very flexible shoulder. He has fast hands. They work together to create a whipping effect. There's just a lot of whip in his arm, similar to his forehand. The end result is this tremendous racket head speed. He has a fairly low toss, and the whole thing happened so fast, it just gets on top of you.

He does the same thing on his second serve. His racket head gets in and out of the back so fast. That's why his second serve has so much action on it. He can make the ball dance. It has tremendous heaviness because of that racket speed. There's so much energy. It's deadly.

So you start with a player that is 6'2", has a lot of racket head speed, fast hands, great timing-those are the things that makes his serve so huge. It's just very, very explosive.

But it's not just Andy's serve. It's his mindset. His mindset is that he wants to just knock you out. It's the same for the serve and the forehand.

Again, a lot of so-called experts say both of those shots are unorthodox. I think it's ironic that he has one of the best forehands on the tour and one of the best serves on the tour and neither one is "classic." So what does that say about the credibility of the "experts"?

I don't think it's about the "right way" or the "wrong way" when you are developing young players. If you think a player is on a path that can lead to world-class, you shouldn't jump off the bandwagon, you should let it play out. And I'll tell you that Andy had his racket speed at a young age. He always had a very quick motion and the fast hands.

So what if anything does all that mean for the average player? If you want to imitate something from Roddick to get more power on the serve, change your timing. A lot of players throw the ball too high. They pause too much, they wait too much, they don't really have the timing to maximize their power. Your motion needs to uncoil in the right sequence to be explosive. You don't want to be waiting for the ball.

Another point: you can see Roddick's knee bend and how he catapults into the court. This is another issue for club players because they have a tendency to come straight down, or actually go backwards when they hit the serve. Their hips are locked and they jackknife themselves.

It's the same when it comes to the right grip to hit with spin. So many club players complain about their serves. But they don't even start with the right grip.

Sure it's more difficult to learn with a true serving grip. That's one of the problems you have with coaching kids when they are younger.

But I show young players the right grip, day one. And then, if necessary, I just let them suffer for a month. That's much better in the long run, instead of having them hold the racket like a frying pan for a couple of years, playing tournaments with the wrong grip and then trying change over. I don't even go there.

It's scary, you know, but to be honest, the average club player doesn't want go through that. The reason why people don't improve is they don't experiment. They are afraid of what will happen in the short run if they experiment.

But if they would take more time to experiment they would eventually learn to execute. And once they learned to execute, they'd get confidence. Once you get confidence, then you improve.

That's another thing you can see about Andy's serve. He has a tremendous amount of confidence. He knows he can execute. He can hit his first serve 150mph, and he still serves 60% in most of his matches. So I don't care what everyone is saying about it. When I watch Andy serve, to me it's a beautiful thing to see.

[Phil Daddario]

People stated that Roddick doesn't have much shoulder rotation.

The point is, he CAN'T. Mostly because of his stance. It limits it. Roddick as as much as possible with it, though.

What causes shoulder injury is hitting the ball late and putting your shoulder in awkward positions.

I'll quote myself on a post a long time ago:

You should not necessarily arch your back for flat serves. Topspin, yes. But otherwise, I think it limits pace a bit. Not too much, though.

I think it's because you're not meeting it out way in front. At least for me, after I moved to continental as a junior I remember shoulder pain because I was meeting it back beside my head. Also, you might be trying to hit the ball at 12'o'clock frequently.

Both (or a combination of the both) put your shoulder in a strange position. Not the most stable. Meeting the ball out in front takes care of some injuries AND adds on some pace.

Normally, when people hit at 12'o'clock or further for topspin, they have to arch their back in order to save their shoulder the position as well as give them a view of the ball. For those serves, you will have to meet the ball further back and to the side, which is why arching your back is necessary.

But for flatter and slice serves, you'll want to meet it in front.