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NoBadMojo
07-14-2005, 01:09 PM
Had a couple hits with a trainer/coach to a fairly well known ATP Pro. He seems to think there is lots of juicin' going on out there on tour, and that it is far more prevalent amonst the claycourters. Also suggested that a US player could be the American king of the juicers, but they dont bother with him because of his drawing power. He was saying how hard it is for his guy <who he made a point to say is 100% clean> to compete against some of these guys who can run forever and never seem to get tired and then they can come back as strong the next day...he says lots of guys train just as hard. Evidently being able to hit balls all day on clay is not only about being fit, and seems to be more a matter of chemically induced endurance than talent. I'm not intersted in starting a fight or flame war or argument with this thread..i'm just passing on info from a good source who i will not reveal.

Fee
07-14-2005, 01:57 PM
I had a very similar conversation (2 of them actually) earlier this week at the Aptos Challenger. There is a belief (or perhaps 'an argument to be made') that a significant number of the Top 100 are getting supplemental help and getting away with it because the testing hasn't caught up yet (short of back acne and testicle inspections, I guess). We did joke that if any of the Americans (other than the obvious 2) are using 'performance enhancing' drugs they should get their money back because its NOT WORKING!!!!

On the other hand, I saw quite a few examples of lockerroom gossip being just that, and that the men's tour can be almost as bad as opposing cliques of high school mean girls at times. There are two (or more) sides to every story, and the truth is out there somewhere. But, it gives us something to discuss on this board at least. :D

Kevin Patrick
07-14-2005, 02:40 PM
It's hard not to notice that Puerta, Coria, Chela & Canas all have been busted & all have extremely physical styles of play. It doesn't seem possible to play 5 setters on clay back-to-back & be fresh as a daisy. No matter how fit you are, you've got to be fatigued.

spinbalz
07-14-2005, 02:53 PM
i'm just passing on info from a good source who iI will not reveal.

From a journalistic point of view, it is not really an information, or at best just an unverified one.

I don't critic the fact that you relate on this board some parts of a conversation that you had with someone, I even find it interesting. Simply calling it an information is not exactly correct, it was just the transcription a conversation.

By the way I tend to firmly believe that some performances are highly doubtable, like it has been already pointed out about so many players from Argentina...

NoBadMojo
07-14-2005, 03:18 PM
ya man spinbalz, but i ain't a journalist, and it wouldnt be right to say who told me. i believe what he told me to be true, and you all can decide if what i posted is good info or not. i think it comes from someone in the know who as trained and coached a number of pro players. i agree with Kevin..when things become unnatural out there...good chance they are.

pound cat
07-14-2005, 03:47 PM
Has Nastase's new book been published yet? His first book "Break Point" although fiction talked a lot about drugs on the tour, and it was published 15 years ago. Maybe Kitty Kellly shoulld be told that there's money to be made from a tennis gossip book.

Aykhan Mammadov
07-14-2005, 04:17 PM
I'm interested in the following. If there is a lot of drugs on the tour, then probably their all kinds ( of drugs) are accessible for every player at least from the first 100. It is also normal to assume that if many players use them then all players use them because for the rest it may become impossible to compete otherwise with users of drugs. Finally we come to the decision that having used drugs or whatever players are on the same equal ground from the scratch as they should be without drugs what means that they differ from each other only by natural gifts. So what is the benefit of drugs ?

thejackal
07-14-2005, 04:25 PM
. Also suggested that a US player could be the American king of the juicers, but they dont bother with him because of his drawing power. He was saying how hard it is for his guy <who he made a point to say is 100% clean> to compete against some of these guys who can run forever and never seem to get tired and then they can come back as strong the next day..

I suspect #1 is Agassi, and #2 Roddick

NoBadMojo
07-14-2005, 04:26 PM
pound cat i think nastase's book was probably referencing recreational drugs on the tour..not this kind of 'doping' enhanced performance stuff..this kind of stuff wasnt available back in the day i dont believe.

spinbalz
07-14-2005, 04:39 PM
Aykhan, so what is the benefit of drug? You can't assume that just because the drugs are easy to access, everybody will use some!!! Can't you understand that it is possible for gifted players who don't take drugs to be successful enough to have a descent pro career even if they have to compete against a field of some less talented players who take drugs? Simply the players who don't take drug won't have as much success than what they could if the entire field would avoid to use drugs.

So to answer to your question, the benefit of the drugs is to obtain an unfair advantage against the many other players as talented or more talented but who refuse to take drugs for whatever reasons (respect of the ethic, refusing to take risks with their health, the fear to get caught).

spinbalz
07-14-2005, 04:43 PM
Well, even back in the days of Connors, and Nastase, performance enhancement products did exist and were used in many sports, the produxts were not as sophisticated as nowadays, but things like adrenaline, cafeine, amphetamines (widely used during the 60" by the bicycle racers) and some other products...

Of course, I ignore if some tennis players from the past used these products.

pound cat
07-14-2005, 05:44 PM
noBadMojo. Nastase wasn't just talking about soft drugs Steroids have been around for a long time, just ask Arnie. & the Eastern European users who were among the first. to use steroids..in the 50's & it took a long time for the US to ban them (1991)

From wikopedia...Anabolic steroids are believed to have been inadvertently discovered by German scientists in the early 1930s, but at the time the discovery was not considered significant enough to warrant further study. The first known reference to an anabolic steroid in a US weightlifting/bodybuilding magazine is testosterone propinate in a letter to the editor in Strength and Health magazine in 1938. In the 1950s, scientific interest was rekindled, and methandrostenolone (Dianabol) was approved for use in the United States by the federal Food and Drug Administration in 1958 after promising trials had been conducted in other countries.

Concerns over the growing illicit market and the prevalence of abuse, combined with the possibility of harmful longterm effects of steroid, use led the U.S. Congress in 1991 to place anabolic steroids into Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act

Boy Wonder
07-14-2005, 06:56 PM
Is this what tennis is coming to? I heard that Argentina juiced not only in tennis, but in their other sports also, and now the ATP has to crackdown on that country sooner or later. I don't think it is with all claycourters, as an example- Nadal, in particular, and as a fan, I am 100% believing in that Nadal's physique is all natural. Compared to someone like Puerta and any other pro for that matter, he is not bulky muscled, but extremely slim, which I don't think can be reached by performance-enhancing drugs, forgive me if I'm wrong. He also gets tired in five-setters evidently.

I thought that these performance enhancing drugs were only a nuisance to sports like baseball, but to come to our sport of tennis? The sport of tennis has long been seen as the "gentlemen's" sport. The popularity of tennis is already tarnished, and now with performance enhancing drugs being more focused on, how will tennis continue to thrive? This should be put to an end, and those head tennis guys better crack down on this. All who juice should be extremely ashamed of themselves, and GREAT, be happy that it's giving you results, but please realize that is called cheating and unfair, but I guess they will do whatever it takes to win those guys... This is me and millions of other fans of the sport reaching out to you juicers; you feel like you play so badly you need a drug to enhance your performance :confused: I pity all you pros improving your performance thru chemistry.

NoBadMojo
07-14-2005, 10:37 PM
pound cat i realize steroids have been around forever..think olympic games and russians and such from many years ago...it is far far far more sophisticated than that now i think, and i do think nasty was probably referencing recreational drugs in his book more than anything..hell, alot of the pros smoked back then..if they were after every advantage back then, do you think they would smoke cigs and doobies, drink, and do coke?

newnuse
07-15-2005, 12:03 AM
What type of drugs are we talking about here?

I thought anabolic roids help build muscles and are actually bad for endurance. You don't see body builders run marathons. All the pros generate enough power, they need more endurance to last 5 sets on clay. I don't think they would take anabolic steriods.

They might do some blood doping or take other drugs to give them energy/stamina.

FiveO
07-15-2005, 08:16 AM
What type of drugs are we talking about here?

I thought anabolic roids help build muscles and are actually bad for endurance. You don't see body builders run marathons. All the pros generate enough power, they need more endurance to last 5 sets on clay. I don't think they would take anabolic steriods.

They might do some blood doping or take other drugs to give them energy/stamina.


Its my understanding that using a.s. w/o enough protein intake and w/o a body building (heavy) weight lifting regimen will not produce muscle bulk.

The other performance enhancing effects they seem to provide are, as I understand them are:

1- Increased strength (w/o bulk necessarily)
2- Increased speed
3- Enhancement of visual acuity/reaction time, which I've only heard of recently in the ongoing "debate" of MLB's Barry Bonds use of a.s. as it relates to his hitting ability.
4- Most importantly Recovery, which I believe is one of NBM's points.

I didn't think a.s. use was detrimental to endurance, but I'm not sure.

Peter Korda received one of the first suspensions for testing positive of a.s. and no one would describe his physique as Schwazeneger-esque.

NoBadMojo
07-15-2005, 09:10 AM
yes, it's the recovery which is very unnaturally complete after expending big time energy on every hit for a 5 set match the day before. some of the claycourters just seem to be like machines out there..they never seem to get tired and the next day they can play a long match at the same crazy rate of running side to side and swinging all out. it's turned into more of a marathon than a tennis match and less about fine stroke production (with a couple of exceptions). i understand some steroids help in recovery tremendously.. Woodstock (Petr Korda) was about 6'1 and 165lbs and he got busted for steroids as Five-O stated.

crosscourt
07-15-2005, 09:34 AM
I agree about recovery. I used to train with some (ice) hockey players at a gym in the UK. Big men taking all sorts of stuff, and the point they always made was that increased recovery -- from games and from training itself- was what they were aiming for. Better recovery meant they could play more and train more.

arosen
07-15-2005, 11:18 AM
I always thought Canas was taking someting. Whenever I saw him at tourneys I wondered how he could sustain that immense level of intensity set after set after set and day in and day out. The guy was grinding every point (20 shot rallies a norm) on every surface as if it was nothing special. Well, turns out he was usin' after all. Sad.

Kobble
07-15-2005, 11:32 AM
Its my understanding that using a.s. w/o enough protein intake and w/o a body building (heavy) weight lifting regimen will not produce muscle bulk.

I have an article of a test which showed that just doing steroids alone will increase muscle mass by a few pounds, as well as strength. They broke the test down into the steroid plus weight training group, weight training only group, and steroid only group. The steroid plus weight training group gained the most mass and strength, obviously. Now, if I remember correctly, the steroid only group gained more mass than the weight training only group, and nearly as much strength. Pretty interesting. As for ATP use, I think they likely take doses much lower than the one prescribed in the article. They are obviously not looking to bulk up, just to prevent the long term breakdown of what they have.

Tennis312
07-15-2005, 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoBadMojo
. Also suggested that a US player could be the American king of the juicers, but they dont bother with him because of his drawing power. He was saying how hard it is for his guy <who he made a point to say is 100% clean> to compete against some of these guys who can run forever and never seem to get tired and then they can come back as strong the next day..

I suspect #1 is Agassi, and #2 Roddick



Really? Do folks think Agassi dopes/uses steroids? He is pretty petite for a steroid user. NBMJ, why so coy on stating the name of the player your source named as the the "king"?

jackson vile
07-15-2005, 02:16 PM
Had a couple hits with a trainer/coach to a fairly well known ATP Pro. He seems to think there is lots of juicin' going on out there on tour, and that it is far more prevalent amonst the claycourters. Also suggested that a US player could be the American king of the juicers, but they dont bother with him because of his drawing power. He was saying how hard it is for his guy <who he made a point to say is 100% clean> to compete against some of these guys who can run forever and never seem to get tired and then they can come back as strong the next day...he says lots of guys train just as hard. Evidently being able to hit balls all day on clay is not only about being fit, and seems to be more a matter of chemically induced endurance than talent. I'm not intersted in starting a fight or flame war or argument with this thread..i'm just passing on info from a good source who i will not reveal.


I wanted to chim in on this as this particular subject is something that I have 6 years of knowledge of.

Here are the facts
1) Steroids do not increase endurance rather they kill ones endurance, causing the body to be less able to use oxygen properly, and can cause very sever pumps, this is why bodybuilders enjoy steroids so much.

2)Next is that these people he is talking about have been playing since they were children and have a long history of success, now if they just one day started beating people because their serve increased 25mph then you might have a case.

3)with out the facts you know nothing and this is no more than a wich hunt, and a lot of "hating" going around.

4) Genetics and talent are why they are where they are not to mention years upon years of hard work.


5)Most of these men and women alike are very very small and skinny and as we know steroids cause muscle gain wanted or not.

6)The WTA are serving right up there Venus used to average a 120mph server and this is where Roger's serve is at right now and he is #1. Last time I check Venus did not have a mustache and a sqeaky voice.

With all of the facts considerd we can come to the conclusion that these people on nothing but whinny losers ;)

NoBadMojo
07-15-2005, 02:53 PM
if you would go back and read my original post which you quote it makes no mention of steroids. but a proven proven fact is that petr korda who is rail thin was busted for steroids. you might agree there are other chemicals you can use that do enhance stamina and recovery..there are also different forms of steroids that accomplish a variety of different things and diferent doses you can take..there is also blood doping and a number of things. i suggest it is you who is on your version of a witch hunt. so we'll just assume this guy knows nothing and you know more than he does about what happens on the pro tour.

jackson vile
07-15-2005, 03:16 PM
if you would go back and read my original post which you quote it makes no mention of steroids. but a proven proven fact is that petr korda who is rail thin was busted for steroids. you might agree there are other chemicals you can use that do enhance stamina and recovery..there are also different forms of steroids that accomplish a variety of different things and diferent doses you can take..there is also blood doping and a number of things. i suggest it is you who is on your version of a witch hunt. so we'll just assume this guy knows nothing and you know more than he does about what happens on the pro tour.

Easy there little guy, you need to simmer down j/k

Listen if you want to properly debate me you need to address all those numbers up their one by one.

And yes with out facts he knows nothing end of story.

"Man that guy is doing way better than I am, I bet he is on steroids!"-Ignorance/Incompetance

iscottius
07-15-2005, 03:44 PM
Justine Henin-hardenne looks a little "juiced"

Kaptain Karl
07-15-2005, 03:47 PM
Listen if you want to properly debate me you need to address all those numbers up their [sic] one by one.Holy cow!!! I whole-heartedly disagree.

Your "point-by-point" section is off point as Ed already indicated. He doesn't have to address your "rabbit trail" post item-by-item. He did just fine with his post up ^ there.

"Man that guy is doing way better than I am, I bet he is on steroids!" - Ignorance/IncompetanceI comprehend your sentiment, here. I just think you are over-stating the OP's position.

- KK

newnuse
07-15-2005, 03:54 PM
Justine Henin-hardenne looks a little "juiced"

I don't know if she is juiced, but she definitely looks more masculine than Fed

Maybe this explains the rash of injuries to rather young players. I thought it was strictly due to today's so call modern techniques, but maybe not.

NoBadMojo
07-15-2005, 04:30 PM
thanks KK....i am capable of defending myself but appreciate your interjection. you're right, those points werent cogent enough to 'debate' one by one. all i did was parse info from someone who is more in the know than any of the other 'expert authorities' on this board and this dude summarlily dismissed them managing to be insultory in the process, and offers nothing up of value to dispute the initial post... pretty bad.

tricky nicky
07-15-2005, 04:42 PM
I think all this speculation can be dealt with quite easily.........

let "nobads" source accuse in public the people he believes are juicing up.

the accused would have to sue for libel/defamation........

in Libel cases you have to prove on the balance of probabilities that you were not or did not etc.

lets get it out in the open.

for me though it isn't important who is cheating just as long as the tennis is entertaining.

spinbalz
07-15-2005, 04:46 PM
jackson vile lists some facts about doping, it's ok, but he shouldn't forget an other very important one, and he would better to add it on his list : SOME ATHLETES DO USE DRUGS TO ENHANCE THEIR PERFORMANCES.

jackson vile
07-16-2005, 10:53 AM
thanks KK....i am capable of defending myself but appreciate your interjection. you're right, those points werent cogent enough to 'debate' one by one. all i did was parse info from someone who is more in the know than any of the other 'expert authorities' on this board and this dude summarlily dismissed them managing to be insultory in the process, and offers nothing up of value to dispute the initial post... pretty bad.


This is so silly and embaracing for you, what you have stated is nothing more than speculation, no facts in any shape or form.

I am not refering to you in my post but what the fool you quoted said.

All of my points are valid, these players have been the best since they were kids, so you are telling me the have been using steroids since then? What a joke.

Feder is the best #1 in the world and his serve is only a little faster on average than what Venus's serve was. These pro's at the top train smart, eat right, and have all types of professional support.

It does not take steroids or any other drugs that you or him have no knowledge of to be a top pro. These people were born with it, his player wasn't so he need to quit being a loser and whiney no more!


As for drug abuse, yep you will find it every where, did you know that some even use PED (performance enhancment drugs) in Chess?

However one thing stays consistent the pros are and always will be the pros drugs or not.

Always some one will have an advantag/s in some way or another.

Do you think that it is fair for poor people in 3rd world countries to compete against pros in the USA that have state of the art trainning equipment, best nutritionist money can by, and stacks of "legal" supplements?

So yes there is always something to whine about, but steroids or special equipment don't make they player and certainly don't make the player great.

Pete Sampras would have been great even if he was using a stick from the late 50's

Kaptain Karl
07-16-2005, 11:59 AM
This is so silly and embaracing [sic] for you...It is YOU who is embarrassing himself/herself.

All of my points are valid...It is "valid" to post "2+2=4" also ... it simply doesn't contribute to the conversation. (As your "points" did not.) You focused on "a portion" of performance enhancing drugs from the OP ... and pretended you were refuting the source's whole position. Nice try....

Then ... you actually dig yourself deeper with claims that the Pros are "natural"...These pro's at the top train smart, eat right, and have all types of professional support.... followed by (emphasis mine) ...As for drug abuse, yep you will find it everywhere, did you know that some even use PED (performance enhancment drugs) in Chess?I wish you'd decide which side of this argument you are "on"....

- KK

tricky nicky
07-16-2005, 12:32 PM
here is a link to an authorititive paper on the physiological demands of 5 set tennis at elite level..........

entitled: Enduring a Five-Set Singles Match (& the Next Match): Physiology of Preparation, Competition & Recovery

http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/tennis/204/

tricky.

jackson vile
07-16-2005, 01:48 PM
It is YOU who is embarrassing himself/herself.

It is "valid" to post "2+2=4" also ... it simply doesn't contribute to the conversation. (As your "points" did not.) You focused on "a portion" of performance enhancing drugs from the OP ... and pretended you were refuting the source's whole position. Nice try....

Then ... you actually dig yourself deeper with claims that the Pros are "natural"...... followed by (emphasis mine) ...I wish you'd decide which side of this argument you are "on"....

- KK


You need to calm down down, you are way too highstrung.

Take a deep breath, breath... breath... and relax... ahhh.... doesn't that feel better? ;)


You need to take a class in debate as you have not properly debated any of my points all of which are valid and directly relate to the coaches whine/complaint.

equinox
07-16-2005, 02:02 PM
I don't see any problems with a professional tennis player taking substances to improve his performances. If this action doesn't violate wada's prohibited list then all is fine.

Doesn't everyone pop a few pills before matches!

I know i do!

FiveO
07-16-2005, 03:12 PM
I wanted to chim in on this as this particular subject is something that I have 6 years of knowledge of.

Here are the facts
1) Steroids do not increase endurance rather they kill ones endurance, causing the body to be less able to use oxygen properly, and can cause very sever pumps, this is why bodybuilders enjoy steroids so much.

No here are the FACTS.

Corticosteroids increase the performance of endurance athletes significantly, by enabling them to keep their blood glucose elevated for longer periods, and by masking the pain of the physical overload on joints and muscles. Specifically speaking, the gluconeogenic activity and lipolytic actions provide the athlete's working muscles with a rich blood supply of energy substrates for going that "extra mile". Additionally, the anti-inflammatory and analgesic activity covers up the discomfort of the massive physical overload. Furthermore, the corticosteroids can have a mild stimulant and euphoric effect on the athlete, charging him up for the event and keeping him or her focused throughout the performance of the grueling task.



2)Next is that these people he is talking about have been playing since they were children and have a long history of success, now if they just one day started beating people because their serve increased 25mph then you might have a case.

Moot. In other professional sports, baseball, football, track & field the athletes have also participated from very young ages. Yet, to get even the slightest edge to reach world class level or edge out the other world class competitors at that level (who have also excelled since they were very young) a percentage of those athletes have been caught and/or admitted using/abusing steroids as well as other P.E. pharmacueticals. Ben Johnson of track and field, Jason Giambi and others from MLB, and NFL athletes to numerous to mention have abused steroids for an athletic edge. I would suspect that others here will be able to provide examples from other sports. It is also documented that a significant percentage of High School athletes are abusing steroids on the chance it will improve performance enough to possibly win college scholarships. To assume that tennis is immune from those same pressures to win and succeed is a bit myopic, let alone that the emaciated Petr Korda was in fact CAUGHT with steroids in his system. Not maybe. CAUGHT by the ITF.

3)with out the facts you know nothing and this is no more than a wich hunt, and a lot of "hating" going around.

See FACTS above.


4) Genetics and talent are why they are where they are not to mention years upon years of hard work.

Yes, as in all other sports those factors have much, if not all, to do with them reaching the most elite levels. But just as it has been documented in other major sports, from junior to most elite levels, steroids and other P.E. drugs ARE being abused by athletes seeking an edge. Petr Korda WAS a great player. Yet he used steroids.


5)Most of these men and women alike are very very small and skinny and as we know steroids cause muscle gain wanted or not.

Petr Korda.

6)The WTA are serving right up there Venus used to average a 120mph server and this is where Roger's serve is at right now and he is #1. Last time I check Venus did not have a mustache and a sqeaky voice.

Female athletes in other sports, track and field in particular i.e. Marion Jones (who I never saw sporting a mustache), have been CAUGHT using anabolic steroids and other P.E. drugs. YOUR assumption that a percentage of WTA players are NOT abusing, IMO, seems naive.

With all of the facts considerd we can come to the conclusion that these people on nothing but whinny losers ;)

Most of your post was opinion with which I disagree. The "facts" you cited are incorrect.

Also, FYI, I was very calm in writing this.

NoBadMojo
07-16-2005, 03:25 PM
KK thanks for taking the time where i didnt want to in this thread and Five-0..props to you for taking the time to explain things to Jacksonvile <and others>..i was having lots of trouble debating someone whose proof that someone doesnt take roids is that they dont have a moustache and squeeky voice ;O. Bary Bonds doesnt either....but his head grew as large as your haloween pumpkin. did you guys hear about the Balco verdict this week?

FiveO
07-16-2005, 03:34 PM
NBM,

The facts are the facts. But I pray I debated properly.

Balco, yeah I heard. The result? Bonds, et al, are spared testifying and will be able to stick to the claim that this was a "witch hunt". Justice, huh?

Good Luck.

Kaptain Karl
07-16-2005, 05:36 PM
You need to take a class in debate as you have not properly debated any of my points all of which are valid and directly relate to the coaches whine/complaint.I'm so sorry. I bow to your vastly superior intellect and forensic experience. (I suppose I should take my college degree in Rhetoric and go sit in the corner, huh?)

Geez!!!

FiveO - Nice (unemotional) post, there....

- KK

Yours!05
07-16-2005, 05:48 PM
FiveO -No here are the FACTS.

Corticosteroids increase the performance of endurance athletes significantly, by enabling them to keep their blood glucose elevated for longer periods, and by masking the pain of the physical overload on joints and muscles. Specifically speaking, the gluconeogenic activity and lipolytic actions provide the athlete's working muscles with a rich blood supply of energy substrates for going that "extra mile". Additionally, the anti-inflammatory and analgesic activity covers up the discomfort of the massive physical overload. Furthermore, the corticosteroids can have a mild stimulant and euphoric effect on the athlete, charging him up for the event and keeping him or her focused throughout the performance of the grueling task....


The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.:rolleyes:

jackson vile
07-16-2005, 07:03 PM
No here are the FACTS.

Corticosteroids increase the performance of endurance athletes significantly, by enabling them to keep their blood glucose elevated for longer periods, and by masking the pain of the physical overload on joints and muscles. Specifically speaking, the gluconeogenic activity and lipolytic actions provide the athlete's working muscles with a rich blood supply of energy substrates for going that "extra mile". Additionally, the anti-inflammatory and analgesic activity covers up the discomfort of the massive physical overload. Furthermore, the corticosteroids can have a mild stimulant and euphoric effect on the athlete, charging him up for the event and keeping him or her focused throughout the performance of the grueling task.

**Show me the study that say it causes these benifits here are the side effects of a very poor choice of PED. Further more corticosteroids are a class of many different drugs with varrying effects, which one are you talking about?

**The potent effect of corticosteroids can result in serious side effects which mimic Cushing's disease, a malfunction of the adrenal glands resulting in an overproduction of cortisol. The list of potential side effects is long and includes:
**
increased appetite and weight gain
deposits of fat in chest, face, upper back, and stomach
water and salt retention leading to swelling and edema
high blood pressure
diabetes
black and blue marks
slowed healing of wounds
osteoporosis
cataracts
acne
muscle weakness
thinning of the skin
increased susceptibility to infection
stomach ulcers
increased sweating
mood swings
psychological problems such as depression
adrenal suppression and crisis

All of this information leads one to believe that it would help for short term only, but with continued use would be detramental.

However many of the side effects are immediate and decrease ones performance.





Moot. In other professional sports, baseball, football, track & field the athletes have also participated from very young ages. Yet, to get even the slightest edge to reach world class level or edge out the other world class competitors at that level (who have also excelled since they were very young) a percentage of those athletes have been caught and/or admitted using/abusing steroids as well as other P.E. pharmacueticals. Ben Johnson of track and field, Jason Giambi and others from MLB, and NFL athletes to numerous to mention have abused steroids for an athletic edge. I would suspect that others here will be able to provide examples from other sports. It is also documented that a significant percentage of High School athletes are abusing steroids on the chance it will improve performance enough to possibly win college scholarships. To assume that tennis is immune from those same pressures to win and succeed is a bit myopic, let alone that the emaciated Petr Korda was in fact CAUGHT with steroids in his system. Not maybe. CAUGHT by the ITF.[/QUOTE]

**Nothing is moot here at all, the drugs do not make the athlete as proven by their history of winning.

No one is making any assumption except for that moron coach


[/QUOTE]
See FACTS above.




Yes, as in all other sports those factors have much, if not all, to do with them reaching the most elite levels. But just as it has been documented in other major sports, from junior to most elite levels, steroids and other P.E. drugs ARE being abused by athletes seeking an edge. Petr Korda WAS a great player. Yet he used steroids.




Petr Korda.



Female athletes in other sports, track and field in particular i.e. Marion Jones (who I never saw sporting a mustache), have been CAUGHT using anabolic steroids and other P.E. drugs. YOUR assumption that a percentage of WTA players are NOT abusing, IMO, seems naive.[/QUOTE]

**Nothing niave about wanting the facts, you are the one making the assumption not me.

Further more Marion was not caught using any steroid, as she would not be racing as she is now


[/QUOTE]
Most of your post was opinion with which I disagree. The "facts" you cited are incorrect.

Also, FYI, I was very calm in writing this.[/QUOTE]

Well done gold star for you :mrgreen: j/k

jackson vile
07-16-2005, 07:10 PM
KK thanks for taking the time where i didnt want to in this thread and Five-0..props to you for taking the time to explain things to Jacksonvile <and others>..i was having lots of trouble debating someone whose proof that someone doesnt take roids is that they dont have a moustache and squeeky voice ;O. Bary Bonds doesnt either....but his head grew as large as your haloween pumpkin. did you guys hear about the Balco verdict this week?



You konw nothing of facts or argumentation as show here in your post.

When you make a claim it is you who must show proof that it is indeed as you state it.

You have shown no proof the moron coach has yet again no proof, there for no argument at all. You have no evidence of any kind, what a joke :mrgreen:

I never said no one uses anything, but it is nothing more than pure speculation and that is indeed a fact! ;)

spinbalz
07-16-2005, 07:26 PM
I never said no one uses anything, but it is nothing more than pure speculation and that is indeed a fact! ;)

Can you clarify what you mean by "it is nothing more than pure speculation", do you mean that it is pure speculation that any pro tennis players may use forbidden products to enhance their performance, or do you mean that it is pure speculations only about some specific players that have been already named in this post(USA players)? I ask that because if you mean that it is pure speculation that any pro tennis players may use forbidden products, then you make a big mistake, because the fact is that some tennis players have already been tested positive and suspended, for exemple : Skoff, Korda, Coria, Canas, Puerta... and the entire list is way longer. THAT IS INDEED A FACT!

NoBadMojo
07-16-2005, 11:21 PM
this is just incredibly absurd by jackson vile not that i could force myself to read it all..i'm not responding...his info seems to be from the 70's....i'm out..

x Southpaw x
07-17-2005, 01:40 AM
lol I came into this thread thinking it was chemistry as in... good chemistry between doubles partners. But it turned out to be drugs... which I have no clue which pro uses what drug. But I believe drug checks have been stricter over the years.

Justine Fanatic
07-17-2005, 03:25 AM
I don't know if she is juiced, but she definitely looks more masculine than Fed

Maybe this explains the rash of injuries to rather young players. I thought it was strictly due to today's so call modern techniques, but maybe not.

No way is she juiced!!

She knew she needed to get stronger because of Serena & Venus's power play, if she wanted to win against them. She started a very rigorous training regime with Pat Etcheberry and ended up with burn-out plus the virus because of her over-working and over-training. It was pure ambition and competitiveness that made her want to get stronger and fitter.

If the WTA thought that she was juicing, wouldn't they have taken action?

You say she looks more masculine than Fed, but that is on the court. Have you not seen pictures of her off court? Her boobs are a little bit bigger than Sharapova's and Justine is more interested in playing tennis rather than looking like a model on court. If it wasn't for Sharapova's pretty face, long hair, long legs and girly dresses then I'm sure she would also look similar because she hasn't any boobs! There are a load of female tennis players who don't have boobs and look masculine. Especially the very small ones!

Have a look on here on page 2 towards the middle and see how a lot of them look when they are not on the court. JHH is a complete transformation :shock:

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=177400&page=2&pp=40

Noelle
07-17-2005, 05:23 AM
You know, the whole debate in this thread could be resolved if NBM just clued us in on who the coach told him is on the juice. Get it out there. If we want tennis to retain/regain its image as a gentleman's sport, it would only be right for substance abusers to be brought out into the open.

Of course this brings into the equation the whole debate about due process and "innocent before proven guilty." A whole new can of worms.

jackson vile
07-17-2005, 10:13 AM
Can you clarify what you mean by "it is nothing more than pure speculation", do you mean that it is pure speculation that any pro tennis players may use forbidden products to enhance their performance, or do you mean that it is pure speculations only about some specific players that have been already named in this post(USA players)? I ask that because if you mean that it is pure speculation that any pro tennis players may use forbidden products, then you make a big mistake, because the fact is that some tennis players have already been tested positive and suspended, for exemple : Skoff, Korda, Coria, Canas, Puerta... and the entire list is way longer. THAT IS INDEED A FACT!

It is pure speculation to say that players that are using illegal PEDs when one has no factual proof.

As for the other players I would like to know what they used, if they have failed a test than they that is that.

However for someone to believe "locker room gossip" and some coach that thinks this or that is indeed moronic.

I never once stated that no tennis player ever have or ever will use any illegal PEDs.

spinbalz
07-17-2005, 10:53 AM
Sysop please delete my current post.

spinbalz
07-17-2005, 10:54 AM
if they have failed a test than they that is that.


Sorry, but English is not my native language, and I couldn't really understand your sentence quoted above, can you please explain differently what you meant, it would help me to understand.

And of course, I agree that "locker room gossip", and words from coaches and trainers about players that they don't even train (or about players they used to train but don't train anymore) prove nothing.

newnuse
07-17-2005, 02:20 PM
No way is she juiced!!

She knew she needed to get stronger because of Serena & Venus's power play, if she wanted to win against them. She started a very rigorous training regime with Pat Etcheberry and ended up with burn-out plus the virus because of her over-working and over-training. It was pure ambition and competitiveness that made her want to get stronger and fitter.

If the WTA thought that she was juicing, wouldn't they have taken action?

You say she looks more masculine than Fed, but that is on the court. Have you not seen pictures of her off court? Her boobs are a little bit bigger than Sharapova's and Justine is more interested in playing tennis rather than looking like a model on court. If it wasn't for Sharapova's pretty face, long hair, long legs and girly dresses then I'm sure she would also look similar because she hasn't any boobs! There are a load of female tennis players who don't have boobs and look masculine. Especially the very small ones!

Have a look on here on page 2 towards the middle and see how a lot of them look when they are not on the court. JHH is a complete transformation :shock:

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=177400&page=2&pp=40

:lol: LOL .... Good link. I went through it kind of quickly so I didn't notice any pictures of JHH.

I see you are a man (I'm assuming) with a good eye for boobs :mrgreen: . I respect that.

I think she looks masculine for several reasons, not just the boob size. Her face is rather masculine if you look closely. Don't let the long hair impair you vision. Her bone structure is masculine. How body shape is masculine as well. The shoulders are very broad. She just isn't curvey in the right places. She also has a very masculine walk.

Don't take it too hard. Many women look masculine compared to Fed.

I have no idea if she is juicing. I do think she is rather masculine.