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sureshs
12-05-2011, 08:29 AM
Yesterday I played with a meetup group and enjoyed it a lot. Good competition. We played singles and doubles. It was through the meetup site and I had joined the group because they had advertised tennis meetups and they play really close to where I am.

But the group name actually says it is a meetup for Asian professionals and they do a lot of other things apart from tennis which doesn't interest me.

And on Saturday I read about Herman Cain saying he was afraid of getting treated by Muslim doctors.

Now I am wondering if I am also as bad as him (in principle).

What if the group was a meetup for "European-origin" players?

Are these harmless things? Should I continue playing tennis but not attend their other events? Or should I not attend any event? Does it really matter if the people are "nice" or not? Isn't it about the principle? Isn't this how jobs were filled and business deals signed by word of mouth and other people excluded?

Or is it OK because historically minorities needed separate organizations? But are Asians a minority in CA any more?

Mods, delete the thread if it gets ugly.

Kevin T
12-05-2011, 08:46 AM
Yesterday I played with a meetup group and enjoyed it a lot. Good competition. We played singles and doubles. It was through the meetup site and I had joined the group because they had advertised tennis meetups and they play really close to where I am.

But the group name actually says it is a meetup for Asian professionals and they do a lot of other things apart from tennis which doesn't interest me.

And on Saturday I read about Herman Cain saying he was afraid of getting treated by Muslim doctors.

Now I am wondering if I am also as bad as him (in principle).

What if the group was a meetup for "European-origin" players?

Are these harmless things? Should I continue playing tennis but not attend their other events? Or should I not attend any event? Does it really matter if the people are "nice" or not? Isn't it about the principle? Isn't this how jobs were filled and business deals signed by word of mouth and other people excluded?

Or is it OK because historically minorities needed separate organizations? But are Asians a minority in CA any more?

Mods, delete the thread if it gets ugly.

As long as you don't do this in every area of life, I don't see an issue. I think it's natural/comfortable to be attracted to similar people, be it cultural/geographical/etc. I live 2500 miles away from my alma mater(s) but meet up with alumni groups at bars to watch sporting events. Doesn't mean I'll never watch sports with Californians. :)

sureshs
12-05-2011, 08:52 AM
I don't support alumni groups any more because I have witnessed first hand how one of them enters a company, then tries to bring his buddies then his juniors and so on, and they end up forming a cartel and keeping out students from other schools. Sometimes it has required a VP to take charge and break this cycle which was proving unhealthy to the company.

r2473
12-05-2011, 08:52 AM
You have the same problem as Woody Allen in "Love and Death":

Boris: My problem is that I see both sides of every issue. I'm too logical.

You know, the world is not logical. If it was logical, how would Old Nehamkin be younger than Young Nehamkin? I knew there was something crazy about that when I was a kid, but every time I said something, they'd smack me. So, you know...

I'm just racked with guilt and I'm consumed with remorse and stricken with suffering for the human race......

And not only that, but I'm developing a herpes on my lip here that is really killing me.

What to do?

Kevin T
12-05-2011, 09:01 AM
I don't support alumni groups any more because I have witnessed first hand how one of them enters a company, then tries to bring his buddies then his juniors and so on, and they end up forming a cartel and keeping out students from other schools. Sometimes it has required a VP to take charge and break this cycle which was proving unhealthy to the company.

That can happen with fraternities, hometowns, ethnicity, you name it. No avoiding that unless you want to go the hermit route...and even hermits play favorites.

Sentinel
12-05-2011, 09:03 AM
Suresh,

One can look at it this way.

Some groups are formed to exclude others, and some so people with similar cultures/interests can meet.

This group does not seem like the one that wishes to exclude others. How would they react if you brought a non-Asian friend along ? Also, its not like they are plotting against people outside the group. It sounds positive.

I've attended Linux Users Groups and JUG's too. Seems okay to me.

Kevin T
12-05-2011, 09:04 AM
San Diego has a basketball league for people under 6 ft tall...what the F is up with that!!??

sureshs
12-05-2011, 09:10 AM
Both the above examples (Linux group, basketball for short people) do not seem to match what I am talking about. I don't think they were ever discriminated against.

Also, one country is OK - people of Australian origin getting together and drinking beer and shouting Might is OK. But Asia is not a single country.

Bartelby
12-05-2011, 09:12 AM
A Muslim doctor can be as good a doctor as anyone else so Cain is quite clearly a racist.

Wanting to play tennis with people you like/or who are alike is a different story, although thinking of such groups as European or Asian could lead toward unfortunate racialist stereotyping.

Kevin T
12-05-2011, 09:14 AM
Both the above examples (Linux group, basketball for short people) do not seem to match what I am talking about. I don't think they were ever discriminated against.

Also, one country is OK - people of Australian origin getting together and drinking beer and shouting Might is OK. But Asia is not a single country.

What about a gay softball league? Apparently, there's a court battle going on right now in the Bay Area because the champs were accused of having too many players not 'gay' enough.

ollinger
12-05-2011, 09:17 AM
Bart
I don't belief antipathy towards another religion is racism, and Islam is not a race. My next door neighbor is a (Croatian) Muslim and I'm as certain as one can reasonably be that he and I are of the same race.

sureshs
12-05-2011, 09:18 AM
What about a gay softball league?

Very much OK, considering that they are truly in small numbers and violently hated.

r2473
12-05-2011, 09:20 AM
I like the way Augusta National / The Masters handled (and continues to handle) their situation along these lines.

sureshs
12-05-2011, 09:21 AM
Bart
I don't belief antipathy towards another religion is racism, and Islam is not a race. My next door neighbor is a (Croatian) Muslim and I'm as certain as one can reasonably be that he and I are of the same race.

Yes, but religion is the new race. A new dimension of discrimination since the older ones are not fashionable or becoming irrelevant. And it has the advantage of appearing to be moral.

Also, religion and race were actively combined at one time.

Kevin T
12-05-2011, 09:26 AM
Very much OK, considering that they are truly in small numbers and violently hated.

So you have to be a small group and be violently hated to form one of these exclusive groups?

r2473
12-05-2011, 09:39 AM
So you have to be a small group and be violently hated to form one of these exclusive groups?

Don't be so logical Kevin.

We all "know the rules". They are impossible to write down, but everybody knows what is and isn't acceptable as far as forming groups.

It's not logical by any means. Gee, what a surprise.

sureshs
12-05-2011, 09:40 AM
So you have to be a small group and be violently hated to form one of these exclusive groups?

You can do whatever you want, but you should think about how you would feel if others did it.

And these things usually go beyond the particular purpose, and serve as business and job networking contacts. That is where my objection is. I don't care if people get together for tennis.

This group is not for "professionals interested in Asian culture." It is a group for "Asian professionals." That is a big difference, isn't it?

r2473
12-05-2011, 10:11 AM
This group is not for "professionals interested in Asian culture." It is a group for "Asian professionals." That is a big difference, isn't it?

Then stop going. You can even picket their meetings / events if you want.

Pretty much all of us in america are fine belonging to various groups "interested in white american culture". Probably because we are white americans. We just have brains enough to call the groups something else.

Kevin T
12-05-2011, 10:17 AM
You can do whatever you want, but you should think about how you would feel if others did it.

And these things usually go beyond the particular purpose, and serve as business and job networking contacts. That is where my objection is. I don't care if people get together for tennis.

This group is not for "professionals interested in Asian culture." It is a group for "Asian professionals." That is a big difference, isn't it?

Honestly, I could care less. I could extrapolate things and determine that my racquet club is an exclusive group of mostly white and Asian individuals belonging to higher socioeconomic/better educated groups. But I choose to see it as my racquet club.

VaththalKuzhambu
12-05-2011, 10:30 AM
Suresh, was this an Amway or Quixtar recruiting group?


But the group name actually says it is a meetup for Asian professionals and they do a lot of other things apart from tennis which doesn't interest me.

sureshs
12-05-2011, 10:33 AM
Suresh, was this an Amway or Quixtar recruiting group?

No. And I have been approached by many of them over the years. Seems to have died out now with all the government investigations.

I have many stories about my encounters with them, but that is for another day.

VaththalKuzhambu
12-05-2011, 10:45 AM
In that case, you should play tennis with them, excuse yourself for other activities and not analyze this for more than what it is.

p.s.: I would love to hear about your Amway encounters.

No. And I have been approached by many of them over the years. Seems to have died out now with all the government investigations.

I have many stories about my encounters with them, but that is for another day.

Andreas1965
12-05-2011, 10:57 AM
This world is full of people I seem to like, and those I seem to... well dislike or, sometimes, hate.

I never cared about race or religion when it comes to deciding whom I like or not. There are fellow Germans I deeply hate, as well as some human beings from any other place in the world.

I can't stand being surrounded by people that do not respect other people being different. We live in a free world - well, most of us 7 billion people - so anyone should have the right to develop their own life-plan.

If some German guy is a racist, or simply a dumbass, then I'll leave. If I happen to meet a Turk who doesn't respect women as equal to men, I'll do the same: leave. If I find it safe enough, I'll tell these peaople why I don't want to be with them (I'm no danger-seeker, I won't argue with people that might hit me in the face).

If the OP feels comfortable with playing tennis with this certain group of people but doesn't want to share their extra-court activities... well, why not? As long as "extra-court activities" doesn't mean planning something illegal or ethical doubtful... if so, I would suggest: RUN!!

r2473
12-05-2011, 11:32 AM
One of your own kind, Stick to your own kind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oxfOncYiag

sureshs
12-05-2011, 12:04 PM
p.s.: I would love to hear about your Amway encounters.

Where do I start?

My own cousin tried to hook me up under the pretext of finding a car loan through them.

Family friend of ours was too polite to refuse and ended up buying a closetful of toilet paper.

Couple met me at an event and mentioned a mutual friend, then started trying to pitch.

A colleague at work showed up at home and was ****ed off when I did not want to join. He also gave me a brochure and then demanded after a week that I should return it (I had thrown it away).

A random guy I met at a restaurant turned out to be the brother of a famous academician I had heard about and we started chatting and somehow must have told him where I lived. He vaguely mentioned about the thing. The following Saturday, he showed up with another person and started banging on the door. I did not open it.

It was once so bad that a friend of mine used to hand out his employer's fax number as his phone number when someone contacted him. He did it readily with a big smile and friendly face and the guys were sure they had found a sucker.

A former boss of mine was into it, but luckily I was not approached. Would have been very awkward.

LeeD
12-05-2011, 12:20 PM
But back to your original post....
Stay if you enjoy the tennis, nobody picks on your especially, and the comraderie is fun and acceptable.
Leave the group if one or some players always give you the stinkeye, you hear rumblings of discontent when you show up, or when their conversations steer well away from anything you're remotely interested in.
BTW, I'm Asian, know of at least 3 groups at different playgrounds who appear similar to your group, is welcome at all of them, but choose not to play with that group.

sureshs
12-05-2011, 01:45 PM
But back to your original post....
Stay if you enjoy the tennis, nobody picks on your especially, and the comraderie is fun and acceptable.
Leave the group if one or some players always give you the stinkeye, you hear rumblings of discontent when you show up, or when their conversations steer well away from anything you're remotely interested in.
BTW, I'm Asian, know of at least 3 groups at different playgrounds who appear similar to your group, is welcome at all of them, but choose not to play with that group.

Why would they pick on me?

Fifth Set
12-05-2011, 01:46 PM
Or is it OK because historically minorities needed separate organizations? But are Asians a minority in CA any more?


Groups like this may not be as "necessary" any longer, but that doesn't make them wrong.

Where groups that are made up of predominantly one race or religion veer into the inappropriate is in their charters or behaviors.

For example, if the group is basically made up of people who hate other races (and, yes, an Asian or black person can be racist), then I wouldn't have anything to do with them, even if they play a good game of tennis. You will see this if the group is unnecessarily exclusionary, in the comments the folks make and in their "jokes."

If there is bad behavior, don't be indifferent to it.

BTW, the Borat actor has a really good analysis of the impact of indifference in his wiki (key passage pasted below), which explains the "point" of much of his humor.

Baron Cohen, the grandson of a Holocaust survivor, says he also wishes in particular to expose the role of indifference in that genocide. "When I was in university, there was this major historian of the Third Reich, Ian Kershaw, who said, 'The path to Auschwitz was paved with indifference.' I know it's not very funny being a comedian talking about the Holocaust, but it's an interesting idea that not everyone in Germany had to be a raving anti-Semite. They just had to be apathetic."[9] Regarding the enthusiastic response to his song, "Throw The Jew Down The Well", he says, "Did it reveal that they were anti-Semitic? Perhaps. But maybe it just revealed that they were indifferent to anti-Semitism."[9]

r2473
12-05-2011, 02:30 PM
I went to my lodge the other day and enjoyed a little music. Some people didn't like it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8442222719771220551#

sureshs
12-05-2011, 03:11 PM
Where groups that are made up of predominantly one race or religion veer into the inappropriate is in their charters or behaviors.


To me, even the appearance of impropriety is to be avoided.

Cindysphinx
12-05-2011, 03:20 PM
Yesterday I played with a meetup group and enjoyed it a lot. Good competition. We played singles and doubles. It was through the meetup site and I had joined the group because they had advertised tennis meetups and they play really close to where I am.

But the group name actually says it is a meetup for Asian professionals and they do a lot of other things apart from tennis which doesn't interest me.

And on Saturday I read about Herman Cain saying he was afraid of getting treated by Muslim doctors.

Now I am wondering if I am also as bad as him (in principle).

What if the group was a meetup for "European-origin" players?

Are these harmless things? Should I continue playing tennis but not attend their other events? Or should I not attend any event? Does it really matter if the people are "nice" or not? Isn't it about the principle? Isn't this how jobs were filled and business deals signed by word of mouth and other people excluded?

Or is it OK because historically minorities needed separate organizations? But are Asians a minority in CA any more?

Mods, delete the thread if it gets ugly.

I'm confused.

Are you Asian but worried about appearing to exclude others who are not? Or are you not Asian and feeling like perhaps you are not welcome?

My take on these groups ("Asian Tennis Association" or "African American Ski Club" or "Jewish Paddle Tennis Enthusiasts") is that everyone is welcome, so long as they are interested in the activity and neutral/supportive of the demographic group.

LeeD
12-05-2011, 03:22 PM
"pick on you" NOT meaning they gang up on you and pummell you to death.
Meaning snide remarks, stinkeyes, stuff you have to LOOK FOR to see. People are masters at subtlety, so look for signs. If none, you're accepted for what you are, so enjoy the tennis.

r2473
12-05-2011, 03:32 PM
What about a gay softball league? Apparently, there's a court battle going on right now in the Bay Area because the champs were accused of having too many players not 'gay' enough.

"pick on you" NOT meaning they gang up on you and pummell you to death.
Meaning snide remarks, stinkeyes, stuff you have to LOOK FOR to see. People are masters at subtlety, so look for signs. If none, you're accepted for what you are, so enjoy the tennis.

My take on these groups ("Asian Tennis Association" or "African American Ski Club" or "Jewish Paddle Tennis Enthusiasts") is that everyone is welcome, so long as they are interested in the activity and neutral/supportive of the demographic group.

Exactly. I mean, all I wanted to do is play a little softball. Is that so wrong?

Kevin T
12-05-2011, 03:37 PM
Exactly. I mean, all I wanted to do is play a little softball. Is that so wrong?

And how do you prove your 'gayness'? Is it a lab value?

Myself, I ONLY go to the Man Hole twice weekly for the hot wings special. And Karaoke.

r2473
12-05-2011, 03:54 PM
And how do you prove your 'gayness'? Is it a lab value?

Myself, I ONLY go to the Man Hole twice weekly for the hot wings special. And Karaoke.

It's sort of like saying you are a 4.0 or whatever in Utah and then playing in California. I mean, I'm pretty gay for Utah, but I have to agree. By SF standards, I really shouldn't have been on that team.

And don't worry Kevin, your secret is safe with me. "Hot wings special" huh? Is that the new code phrase?

Kevin T
12-05-2011, 04:00 PM
It's sort of like saying you are a 4.0 or whatever in Utah and then playing in California. I mean, I'm pretty gay for Utah, but I have to agree. By SF standards, I really shouldn't have been on that team.

And don't worry Kevin, your secret is safe with me. "Hot wings special" huh? Is that the new code phrase?

Bingo.

I've never seen a hitter go deep as many times as you, r2. And hey, it wasn't a pitcher's park you were doing that in. You're a San Fran softball legend.

Always ask for extra ranch with your hot wings. :)

sureshs
12-05-2011, 04:40 PM
"pick on you" NOT meaning they gang up on you and pummell you to death.
Meaning snide remarks, stinkeyes, stuff you have to LOOK FOR to see. People are masters at subtlety, so look for signs. If none, you're accepted for what you are, so enjoy the tennis.

Why would I not be accepted?

LeeD
12-05-2011, 04:47 PM
Since you feel like you're "accepted", why are you doubting yourself and thinking of negative things which aren't there?

sureshs
12-05-2011, 04:48 PM
I'm confused.

Are you Asian but worried about appearing to exclude others who are not? Or are you not Asian and feeling like perhaps you are not welcome?

My take on these groups ("Asian Tennis Association" or "African American Ski Club" or "Jewish Paddle Tennis Enthusiasts") is that everyone is welcome, so long as they are interested in the activity and neutral/supportive of the demographic group.

Take a wild guess. Obviously I am worried about the long-term effects of social segregation. Wherever I go, I am always welcome due to my charm and tennis skills.

I am not OK with your examples, though. A case can be made for them if they historically existed as a necessity of the times, like the HBCs. New ones I am not OK with (except gay ones). I don't see a reason why Asians cannot play tennis with others, and what in tennis is specific to an Asian.

sureshs
12-05-2011, 04:49 PM
Since you feel like you're "accepted", why are you doubting yourself and thinking of negative things which aren't there?

Because someone's got to think of others

LeeD
12-05-2011, 04:54 PM
Is it YOUR obligation to take care of everyone, or should they make the choices for themselves?
If they accept you, they play with you, they provide decent enough tennis, but they also do other social things, are you obligated to hang with them all the time?
Do you hang onto every aspect of everyone you like? Does your tennis stringer need to go to movies with you?
Obviously, I'm being sarcastic here. Live and let live.

r2473
12-05-2011, 05:08 PM
Bingo.

I've never seen a hitter go deep as many times as you, r2. And hey, it wasn't a pitcher's park you were doing that in. You're a San Fran softball legend.

Always ask for extra ranch with your hot wings. :)

You know, I thought something weird was going on. My turn at bat came up about every inning. I had 7-8 at bats in some of those games. Man, you talk about feeling sore the next day..........

Looking forward to eating more of those SF wings. Better than New York pizza, skinny jeans, and playing the skin flute..........

LeeD
12-05-2011, 05:18 PM
Wow, another SF nightime softball player on this forum?
I sucked, but could hit it out of most parks. Marina, I'd hit the foul lightbulbs over and over again, but hardly ever hit one that far fair. Turk and Buchanan, I'd hit it over the right field fence either side, for a double.
Army and 26th, I'd hit it over the left field fence pretty regularly, but popped out more than 3/4 the time. WestSunset was home court, right field an easy reach for a double, no chance left field.
Unfortunately, I could throw farther than I could bat.

r2473
12-05-2011, 05:29 PM
Did you guys ever get together for wings and karoke after the games Lee? Maybe we were on a team together or in the same league. Maybe I'd recognize you.

After a while, I just can't keep all the boys "straight".

LeeD
12-05-2011, 05:35 PM
Sorry, I played in the early '70's, while still trying to recover from a 6 pin full surgery tib/fib from '71. Some bar in the Oceanside District. Got contacted because I should have made the junior high baseball team, but coach invited a total of 9 guys back for the next day, and the track coach was bugging me to run for him. I could hit the ball over APGianini's left field fence by the high 7th, when I was maybe 70 lbs.
Of course, I also sucked at intramurals, where I"d hit one a mile, then pop up to short left field.