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View Full Version : Federer's WTF 2011 best points shows a decline in shotmaking ability...


Nathaniel_Near
12-13-2011, 11:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bSbZaXtlGc&feature=youtu.be

This is a compilation of the 30 best points from roger during the 2011 World Tour Finals, but compared to his efforts at the 06 07 and 09 Finals, his 2010 and 11 finals have been almost drab by comparison (though still very pleasing to watch).:twisted: If you watch the video, this can be clearly seen, what do you guys think?

WHY IS THIS??

OddJack
12-14-2011, 12:01 AM
Because he is getting younger day by day, year in and year out.

joeri888
12-14-2011, 12:27 AM
The guy is 30 years old. Name me a better shotmaker aged 30. It's not easy to find.

wangs78
12-14-2011, 03:38 AM
I think he's starting to take a more practical approach towards tennis. Whereas before when he was at the height of his abilities he would often play in such a way as to increase the difficulty (and therefore awesomeness) of his winners now he realizes that it may be more effective play a more utilitarian game. In my view since '07-'08 he has had trouble letting go that his abilities had declined and he had kept going for shots that had a very high level of difficulty but now, in 2011, it looks like he's finally hunkered down and decided that wins matter more than style, and he can't have both as much as he did in his prime.

Nathaniel_Near
12-14-2011, 03:50 AM
I think he's starting to take a more practical approach towards tennis. Whereas before when he was at the height of his abilities he would often play in such a way as to increase the difficulty (and therefore awesomeness) of his winners now he realizes that it may be more effective play a more utilitarian game. In my view since '07-'08 he has had trouble letting go that his abilities had declined and he had kept going for shots that had a very high level of difficulty but now, in 2011, it looks like he's finally hunkered down and decided that wins matter more than style, and he can't have both as much as he did in his prime.

This is more the sort of educated answer I was hoping to see.:)

BeHappy
12-14-2011, 03:50 AM
Because the court is much slower?

TheMusicLover
12-14-2011, 04:23 AM
Is this a LOLville baiting thread? :D

Sentinel
12-14-2011, 04:47 AM
This video clearly shows that Nadal has lost his mental strength.

TJfederer16
12-14-2011, 04:54 AM
what are you on about, the shotmaking in those vids are incredible, did you not watch the match against Nadal where it was winner after winner, the thing that has changed over the last few years, is in his prime years 2004,05,06,07 he was willing to go longer in the rallies thinking he could just outlast anyone and not feeling he had to pull the trigger too early and not go for winner way to early in the rally, we have seen this a lot more over recent years, especially in 2008, where he just seemed to get frustrated and pull the trigger at every opportunity and make a lot of UE's, matches like against Simon in Toronto and so on come to mind, over these past few months i think he is more willing to go deeper into rallies again it seems, he seems a lot more comfortable just rallying and pulling the trigger at the right times and not going for a winner too early in the rally, he executed those tactics perfectly in Basel, Paris and WTF's, he just looked so comfortable if the rallies went longer, in the past that perhaps hasn't been the case, its all about getting that balance between controlled aggression and not being too aggressive with Roger, when he gets that right like he has this fall he is pretty much unstoppable.

sixone90
12-14-2011, 05:05 AM
Because the court is much slower?

Yeah, I think the court at the ATP WTF in London is a lot slower compared to the court back in Shanghai

Nathaniel_Near
12-14-2011, 05:40 AM
Because the court is much slower?

what are you on about, the shotmaking in those vids are incredible, did you not watch the match against Nadal where it was winner after winner, the thing that has changed over the last few years, is in his prime years 2004,05,06,07 he was willing to go longer in the rallies thinking he could just outlast anyone and not feeling he had to pull the trigger too early and not go for winner way to early in the rally, we have seen this a lot more over recent years, especially in 2008, where he just seemed to get frustrated and pull the trigger at every opportunity and make a lot of UE's, matches like against Simon in Toronto and so on come to mind, over these past few months i think he is more willing to go deeper into rallies again it seems, he seems a lot more comfortable just rallying and pulling the trigger at the right times and not going for a winner too early in the rally, he executed those tactics perfectly in Basel, Paris and WTF's, he just looked so comfortable if the rallies went longer, in the past that perhaps hasn't been the case, its all about getting that balance between controlled aggression and not being too aggressive with Roger, when he gets that right like he has this fall he is pretty much unstoppable.

Again, more excellent answers.

It's a mix of changing strategies which is a necessary adaptation according to surface change. I don't agree with everything said here but your answers are well reasoned and hold arguably logical premise.



The factors involved are complicated, for example such a scenario can exist where one is producing more brilliance because they have to 'just to survive' rather than being totally in control of a situation. This could explain the devastatingly brilliant points observed in the 2009 World Tour Finals, especially in the matches where he was struggling for parity and the victory. I will upload a video of the points from 2009 in due course.

Certainly the play from 2010 and 2011 was often controlled, excellent and clinical. Roger's tendencies have changed slightly over the years, which is the least that should be expected of an evolving player, and by evolving I mean changing necessarily with the times due to having different arch-nemeses or the change of non-sentient conditions.

This is just one element of many which can be picked out, some of which have already been stated very clearly; conditions, ethos, age.

Cheers.

Nathaniel_Near
12-14-2011, 05:42 AM
Is this a LOLville baiting thread? :D

I enjoy playing devil's advocate.

joeri888
12-14-2011, 05:50 AM
Again, more excellent answers.

It's a mix of changing strategies which is a necessary adaptation according to surface change. I don't agree with everything said here but your answers are well reasoned and hold arguably logical premise.



The factors involved are complicated, for example such a scenario can exist where one is producing more brilliance because they have to 'just to survive' rather than being totally in control of a situation. This could explain the devastatingly brilliant points observed in the 2009 World Tour Finals, especially in the matches where he was struggling for parity and the victory. I will upload a video of the points from 2009 in due course.

Certainly the play from 2010 and 2011 was often controlled, excellent and clinical. Roger's tendencies have changed slightly over the years, which is the least that should be expected of an evolving player, and by evolving I mean changing necessarily with the times due to having different arch-nemeses or the change of non-sentient conditions.

This is just one element of many which can be picked out, some of which have already been stated very clearly; conditions, ethos, age.

Cheers.I'm not sure, but doesn't evolve mean get better? Fed is not in any way getting better. He's adapting to his decreased abilities, particularly physical.

TheMusicLover
12-14-2011, 05:53 AM
I enjoy playing devil's advocate.

I suspected that. :p

Nathaniel_Near
12-14-2011, 06:15 AM
I'm not sure, but doesn't evolve mean get better? Fed is not in any way getting better. He's adapting to his decreased abilities, particularly physical.

I've explained already what I meant by it as being necessary change due to surrounding conditions and circumstances, whether or not that is an accurate use of the world evolve or not, somebody else can be the authority on that.

And yes, his changing body needs to be adapted to, just like various other things; another one of the elements that makes answering this question not as straightforward as perhaps a lot of people first thought.

TennisLovaLova
12-14-2011, 07:51 AM
This video clearly shows that Nadal has lost his mental strength.

Indeed.

To answer the OP, I think the difference comes from the fact that now Federer is allowing himself a substantial margin of error when he hits a winner. It is obvious on his backhands and sometimes on his forehand too.
Another way to look at it is to try to be himself for a minute. Even myself, when I play matches, I try to hit the most awesome winner of my life, even if I can easily finish the point, I try to put some style in it.
Our amigo Roger has filled half of youtube with his winner shots. Mayve he doesnt mind anymore to pull 10/15 awesome winners per match. 2 or 3 are enough for him now maybe.

Bobby Jr
12-14-2011, 12:57 PM
Because the court is much slower?
This ^

Shanghai's court was like ice compared to London the past two years. You only have to look at the #1 rally in the video where it takes Federer a minute to win a point where on a quicker court it would have been over 4 or more times already. (plus you could tell he was just intent on punishing Nadal because of the knock-on effect on future points in the match)

pvaudio
12-14-2011, 01:00 PM
And yet, he still managed to win the tournament rather easily on a slower surface than usual. I'm failing to see how there is an issue here? A 30 year old man still winning a tournament comprised of only the best of the best?

Bobby Jr
12-14-2011, 01:03 PM
And yet, he still managed to win the tournament rather easily on a slower surface than usual. I'm failing to see how there is an issue here? A 30 year old man still winning a tournament comprised of only the best of the best?
Yep, indeed. A slow court is a double edged sword. When Federer is fresh a slow court isn't much obstacle to him as it might mean rallys are longer on average but it also means he can get in position far more often for his shots. When hitting from a balanced base Federer is still a match for anyone.

SStrikerR
12-14-2011, 05:59 PM
I think he's playing points more clinically, more intelligently now than he has in the past. In the past, he could blast people off the courts and rely on genius shotmaking ability. Now, he just completely dismantles people.

Sentinel
12-14-2011, 08:37 PM
Even after such a decline in shotmaking ability Roger was still able to "wipe the floors with Nadal"[1] who has had a magnificent season capped with a majestic DC win.

[1] JV.

swordtennis
12-14-2011, 08:43 PM
This video clearly shows that Nadal has lost his mental strength.

The body becomes immune to confidence.
More and more confidence is needed to attain the results one has had.
:shock:

swordtennis
12-14-2011, 08:45 PM
Even after such a decline in shotmaking ability Roger was still able to "wipe the floors with Nadal"[1] who has had a magnificent season capped with a majestic DC win.

[1] JV.

Nadal had no Confidence @ the WTF.
Mucho Confidence @ the DC.

GOAT BAAH!!!
12-14-2011, 08:56 PM
Is Fred still sexyclass if he starts to win ugly?

Sentinel
12-15-2011, 01:30 AM
Is Fred still sexyclass if he starts to win ugly?
SexiMasterClassSwissSorceror :)

(TM) - StringerTom