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View Full Version : Did Rafa's consistency make Novak's season even more special?


Hitman
12-22-2011, 03:29 AM
Without having to go too much into what Novak accomplished in 2011, especially when he was been written off prematurely as a one slam wonder etc. Did Nadal's own high consistency make Djokovic's run that much more special, than if Nadal wasn't there competing in those finals?

Novak beat Rafael six times, on three surfaces, all finals, took four of his titles, including W and USO, without a single loss. Did beating the man, who was the undisputed world number one at the start of the year, who himself had his most consistent year in getting to finals elevate Novak's season even more than if he hadn't played him?

Would Novak's season have looked as impressive if Nadal was injured, absent, or taken out early in those big wins? Sure, you can only play who is in front of you, and he had to go through the world number one. Thoughts?

aldeayeah
12-22-2011, 03:37 AM
Of course it did, although it became a bit tragicomic as the year went on.

The two Slam victories against Fed did a lot too.

The only way the new alpha male can solidify his place, in the eyes of many, is to beat the old alpha males...

Hitman
12-22-2011, 03:43 AM
Of course it did, although it became a bit tragicomic as the year went on.

The two Slam victories against Fed did a lot too.

The only way the new alpha male can solidify his place, in the eyes of many, is to beat the old alpha males...

That certainly helped. He has beaten Roger in the last three hard court slams.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 03:48 AM
Yes absolutely. The consistency is the best indicator of a player still playing his best. This means Djoker had to take out a completely healthy Nadal playing to his best level. This is very impressive indeed. And I'm not really sure you can even say Djoker is a matchup problem for Nadal since Nadal was certainly beating Djoker quite well before 2011. In fact I never even heard anyone say Djoker was a matchup problem for Nadal before 2011. I think it's just another excuse Nadal fans adopted just because it's the case with Fedal.

Hitman
12-22-2011, 03:54 AM
Yes absolutely. The consistency is the best indicator of a player still playing his best. This means Djoker had to take out a completely healthy Nadal playing to his best level. This is very impressive indeed. And I'm not really sure you can even say Djoker is a matchup problem for Nadal since Nadal was certainly beating Djoker quite well before 2011. In fact I never even heard anyone say Djoker was a matchup problem for Nadal before 2011. I think it's just another excuse Nadal fans adopted just because it's the case with Fedal.

Do you think Nadal has what it takes to bounce back? And if so, how would he tactically go about changing the winds that are against him? I am sure he is still in his prime.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 03:57 AM
Do you think Nadal has what it takes to bounce back? And if so, how would he tactically go about changing the winds that are against him? I am sure he is still in his prime.

Yes Nadal can definitely bounce back, but it all really depends on Djoker's level and presence as proven by copious data in 2011. Whenever Djoker was around Nadal lost. If Djoker was not around Nadal won, see Barcelona and FO. Data never lie.

Hitman
12-22-2011, 04:05 AM
Yes Nadal can definitely bounce back, but it all really depends on Djoker's level and presence as proven by copious data in 2011. Whenever Djoker was around Nadal lost. If Djoker was not around Nadal won, see Barcelona and FO. Data never lie.

I agree, the data does not lie, and Nadal is still very much in his prime. I guess it depends on the chasm that exist between him and Novak, but, I also think the chasm that exists between him and the players behind him. I do think his worst scenario would be losing the number two rank to Roger for various reasons.

I am really looking forward to seeing how the top guns come out. Novak and Rafa are normally at the their best earlier in the year, but if Roger catches fire, and displaces Rafa, things could get interesting.

I certainly wouldn't rule any of them out in the new season.

MariaRafael
12-22-2011, 04:45 AM
Djokovic was very consistent at the year end: retire, retire, lose, lose.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 04:47 AM
Djokovic was very consistent at the year end: retire, retire, lose, lose.

Just like Nadal. Except Nadal was lose lose lose lose

DRII
12-22-2011, 04:47 AM
NO, NO, and Yes...

Nadal's, relatively lower form, this year certainly did not elevate Nole's results for the season. However, to those unwilling to be discerning and observant, it may seem that defeating Nadal six straight times and never losing to him bolsters Nole's season. Of course most people now admit that Nadal did not play as well in 2011 as he did in 2010 (Nadal has even said so himself).

Even watching the re-run of this year’s Aussie Open final, its clear that Nole played better during the 2010 USO final which he lost to Nadal. As a matter of fact; Nole’s performance of USO 2010 was better than Nole of 2011 Aussie or 2011 USO (comparing hardcourt to hardcourt slams). Maybe its because the USO was faster last year, IDK…

Either way it matters little. Nole had a great year, on par with Nadal's 2010, 2008 + Australian 2009; or Federer’s 2005 - 2007 seasons.

SLD76
12-22-2011, 04:53 AM
NO, NO, and Yes...

Nadal's, relatively lower form, this year certainly did not elevate Nole's results for the season. However, to those unwilling to be discerning and observant, it may seem that defeating Nadal six straight times and never losing to him bolsters Nole's season. Of course most people now admit that Nadal did not play as well in 2011 as he did in 2010 (Nadal has even said so himself).

Even watching the re-run of this year’s Aussie Open final, its clear that Nole played better during the 2010 USO final which he lost to Nadal. As a matter of fact; Nole’s performance of USO 2010 was better than Nole of 2011 Aussie or 2011 USO (comparing hardcourt to hardcourt slams). Maybe its because the USO was faster last year, IDK…

Either way it matters little. Nole had a great year, on par with Nadal's 2010, 2008 + Australian 2009; or Federer’s 2005 - 2007 seasons.

its easy to feel you were not playing as well when you didnt win as many titles.

take away Djoker, and Nadal's 2011 would have been a career best as well as a legendary season.

Nadal played as good if not better then he was in 2010, Djoker was just better.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 04:56 AM
its easy to feel you were not playing as well when you didnt win as many titles.

take away Djoker, and Nadal's 2011 would have been a career best as well as a legendary season.

Nadal played as good if not better then he was in 2010, Djoker was just better.

Quoted for truth. This is actually what most sane people realize who understand that truth depends on data. People who like to feel the truth depending on their mood generally believe the converse.

Sentinel
12-22-2011, 04:57 AM
Do you think Nadal has what it takes to bounce back? And if so, how would he tactically go about changing the winds that are against him? I am sure he is still in his prime.
IIRC, Rafa himself said he had no answer. He and Toni had enough time to think of strategies to counter Nole but (it seems) they could not come up with any. Its doubtful that they'll be able to come up with one now, but one can't tell.

It may come down more to whether Nole can keep up (or return to) his 2011 form. If he can't, Nadal could dominate 2012.

DRII
12-22-2011, 05:05 AM
Yes Nadal can definitely bounce back, but it all really depends on Djoker's level and presence as proven by copious data in 2011. Whenever Djoker was around Nadal lost. If Djoker was not around Nadal won, see Barcelona and FO. Data never lie.

So in your twisted mind; the current year's data completely wipes out all preceding years data??? How ridiculous!

So if Nadal plays great next year after a relatively disappointing 2011 (as he did in 2010 after a relatively low 2009) and starts to own Nole again it will only be because of Nole's decreased level of play :confused:

However, you and your delusional cohorts absolutely claim that the reverse could not have been true for Nole this year (i.e. Nole defeating Nadal at least in part because Nadal was playing worse). I guess it must be nice to live in your world - ignorance is bliss!

Of course, we rational individuals will wait and see what actually happens next year. If Nadal improves to the level that he was in 2010 and still loses to Nole - then that will be the case and corresponding credit will be given or vice versa. I suggest you wait and see...

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 05:12 AM
So in your twisted mind; the current year's data completely wipes out all preceding years data??? How ridiculous!

So if Nadal plays great next year after a relatively disappointing 2011 (as he did in 2010 after a relatively low 2009) and starts to own Nole again it will only be because of Nole's decreased level of play :confused:

However, you and your delusional cohorts absolutely claim that the reverse could not have been true for Nole this year (i.e. Nole defeating Nadal at least in part because Nadal was playing worse). I guess it must be nice to live in your world - ignorance is bliss!

Of course, we rational individuals will wait and see what actually happens next year. If Nadal improves to the level that he was in 2010 and still loses to Nole - then that will be the case and corresponding credit will be given or vice versa. I suggest you wait and see...

In your little mind, if Nadal doesn't win then his level is low. If Nadal wins, his level is back to where it was. Yes, we all get it you know, i.e. get how stupid you are.

Hitman
12-22-2011, 05:16 AM
IIRC, Rafa himself said he had no answer. He and Toni had enough time to think of strategies to counter Nole but (it seems) they could not come up with any. Its doubtful that they'll be able to come up with one now, but one can't tell.

It may come down more to whether Nole can keep up (or return to) his 2011 form. If he can't, Nadal could dominate 2012.

Would say that he had no answer for Nole THIS year? He certainly seemed to have the answer pre-2011. Why would you think those same strategies that worked so well for him before, giving a him a very solid 16-7 H2H led to him being completely shut out in 2011 with six straight high profile losses?

Do you think that Nole has improved to the point that Rafa's tried and tested tactics against him in the past, are not able to hurt this Novak? Surely you can't forget how to beat someone if you have beaten them 16 times before, unless that player has improved to the point that your tactics are now outdated, and you have been left behind.

DRII
12-22-2011, 05:17 AM
its easy to feel you were not playing as well when you didnt win as many titles.

take away Djoker, and Nadal's 2011 would have been a career best as well as a legendary season.

Nadal played as good if not better then he was in 2010, Djoker was just better.

How can you say that? This is a complete hypothetical! And for you newly minted Nole lovers, when really you all are Nadal haters, claim to only base your assessments on data but then you produce your opinion on complete conjecture... What hypocrisy!!!

DRII
12-22-2011, 05:22 AM
In your little mind, if Nadal doesn't win then his level is low. If Nadal wins, his level is back to where it was. Yes, we all get it you know, i.e. get how stupid you are.

Wrong again! I thought Nadal's level has been low since fairly early in the year, at least as compared to 2010. And i said so, way before we knew Nole would have the excellent year he did...

And i thought Nadal was not playing well at the French, even though he Won it! And i said so...

DRII
12-22-2011, 05:26 AM
Would say that he had no answer for Nole THIS year? He certainly seemed to have the answer pre-2011. Why would you think those same strategies that worked so well for him before, giving a him a very solid 16-7 H2H led to him being completely shut out in 2011 with six straight high profile losses?

Do you think that Nole has improved to the point that Rafa's tried and tested tactics against him in the past, are not able to hurt this Novak? Surely you can't forget how to beat someone if you have beaten them 16 times before, unless that player has improved to the point that your tactics are now outdated, and you have been left behind.


Or, Nadal was just not playing as well as before. You purposely avoiding this possible reason is telling. You, and others, are clearly insecure and defensive as a result!

Totai
12-22-2011, 05:34 AM
Wrong again! I thought Nadal's level has been low since fairly early in the year, at least as compared to 2010. And i said so, way before we knew Nole would have the excellent year he did...

And i thought Nadal was not playing well at the French, even though he on it! And i said so...

Nadal's level wasn't low. He made the finals of 3 slams, and the finals of a lot of masters tournaments. The only difference between Nadal of 2010 and Nadal of 2011 is that 2010 Nadal had a nasty serve for 2 weeks.

If Nadal was able to take either Miami or IW from Djokovic, then this year would have been completely different. Djok managed to get into Nadal's head.

Hitman
12-22-2011, 05:37 AM
Or, Nadal was just not playing as well as before. You purposely avoiding this possible reason is telling. You, and others, are clearly insecure and defensive as a result!

Insecure about what? Go watch the Miami final this year, that was about as intense a match you can get, and that was type of match that Rafa would always win against Nole. When he outlasted him mentally, and physically, that was when the tied changed. Rafa didn't lie down for Nole, Nole had to fight to take it from Rafa. Rafa's level was low in that? Yeah, right....

Regarding insecurity, you are saying that Novak played better in the USO '10 final, despite the performance he put on at AO 11, especially against Roger? I won't even go to the USO 11, because in that match he showed immense courage to withstand Rafa's warrior like fight back.

USO '10 Novak was happy to be there, having scrapped past Roger, after having a terrible year. USO '11, he stepped onto court to win, against a player who was not going to lie down for him.

DRII
12-22-2011, 05:49 AM
Nadal's level wasn't low. He made the finals of 3 slams, and the finals of a lot of masters tournaments. The only difference between Nadal of 2010 and Nadal of 2011 is that 2010 Nadal had a nasty serve for 2 weeks.

If Nadal was able to take either Miami or IW from Djokovic, then this year would have been completely different. Djok managed to get into Nadal's head.

I didn't say low, but lower than 2010...

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 05:53 AM
Nadal's level in 2011 was much higher than 2010. Look who he had to beat in slam finals in 2010. LOL. Compare that to 2011

SLD76
12-22-2011, 05:57 AM
How can you say that? This is a complete hypothetical! And for you newly minted Nole lovers, when really you all are Nadal haters, claim to only base your assessments on data but then you produce your opinion on complete conjecture... What hypocrisy!!!

The only thing hypothetical is your assumption of any knowledge of tennis.

FACT: Nadal made what was it....7 finals in a row

Indian Wells, Miami, Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Rome, Madrid, FO

I believe he won 3 of those finals( monte carlo, barcelona, FO)- incidentally in all three wins he faced no Djoker.

He made the finals of Wimbledon, USO and Tokyo.

Thus he made 10 finals across all surfaces in one year, a career best I think.

He made the finals of 3 slams, for the second time
He made back to back finals in a HC tourny an unprecedented I believe what, 3 times? ( IW or was it Miami, USO, Tokyo)

In other words he was consistent this year in a way he had never been in his career before. He was *better* than he was in 2010.

The problem was, instead of Federer or the non-big 4 opponents he faced in finals last year(Berdych, Soderling etc), he had to play a physically and mentally improved Djoker.


Thus if not for Djoker, and let me say this slowly, if not for Djoker Rafa would have had the best year of his career, thus by implication in 2011 his play was as good if not better than 2010

sonicare
12-22-2011, 05:59 AM
Nadal is playing better than ever as displayed clearly by the number of finals he made.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 06:01 AM
For idiots thinking it is hypothetical that Nadal would have won all those finals with no Djoker around please tell me who else was close to the level of these two that could have taken out Nadal?!?

SLD76
12-22-2011, 06:04 AM
For idiots thinking it is hypothetical that Nadal would have won all those finals with no Djoker around please tell me who else was close to the level of these two that could have taken out Nadal?!?

ya know....Id have given Tsonga a fair shot at wimbledon, seeing as he had already beaten Nadal at Queens.

And old or not, Id give Fed a fighting chance at USO. But, stamina for sure would have been an issue for Fed so, eh.


Id have given rafa maybe one of those titles but not neccesarily both.

All the other finals tho? probably give them all to Rafa.

DRII
12-22-2011, 06:08 AM
The only thing hypothetical is your assumption of any knowledge of tennis.

FACT: Nadal made what was it....7 finals in a row

Indian Wells, Miami, Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Rome, Madrid, FO

I believe he won 3 of those finals( monte carlo, barcelona, FO)- incidentally in all three wins he faced no Djoker.

He made the finals of Wimbledon, USO and Tokyo.

Thus he made 10 finals across all surfaces in one year, a career best I think.

He made the finals of 3 slams, for the second time
He made back to back finals in a HC tourny an unprecedented I believe what, 3 times? ( IW or was it Miami, USO, Tokyo)

In other words he was consistent this year in a way he had never been in his career before. He was *better* than he was in 2010.

The problem was, instead of Federer or the non-big 4 opponents he faced in finals last year(Berdych, Soderling etc), he had to play a physically and mentally improved Djoker.


Thus if not for Djoker, and let me say this slowly, if not for Djoker Rafa would have had the best year of his career, thus by implication in 2011 his play was as good if not better than 2010

No matter how slowly you repeat fluff, it is still that -- fluff!

Again, your entire premise is based on nothing but conjecture. There is nothing wrong with conjecture, but do not try and bolster, yours and others, ridiculous 'data' theme with a hypothetical! You're a complete hypocrite if you choose to do so...

SLD76
12-22-2011, 06:10 AM
No matter how slowly you repeat fluff, it is still that -- fluff!

Again, your entire premise is based on nothing but conjecture. There is nothing wrong with conjecture, but do not try and bolster, yours and others, ridiculous 'data' theme with a hypothetical! You're a complete hypocrite if you choose to do so...
You are divorced from reality.

Where facts are fluff and rantings and wishful thinking are set in stone.

Spot on trolling by you sir, well done.

zagor
12-22-2011, 06:11 AM
Of course most people now admit that Nadal did not play as well in 2011 as he did in 2010 (Nadal has even said so himself). .

Most people? You mean Nadal fans?

Even watching the re-run of this year’s Aussie Open final, its clear that Nole played better during the 2010 USO final which he lost to Nadal.

Watching the re-run of 2010 USO final it is clear that Novak played nowhere near as good as he did at both AO and USO this year(especially AO).

As a matter of fact; Nole’s performance of USO 2010 was better than Nole of 2011 Aussie or 2011 USO (comparing hardcourt to hardcourt slams). Maybe its because the USO was faster last year, IDK…

You mean the performance in which he was on the brink of losing to his pigeon Troicki? You aren't serious are you?

Either way it matters little. Nole had a great year, on par with Nadal's 2010, 2008 + Australian 2009; or Federer’s 2005 - 2007 seasons.

Oh it's definitely better (not just on par) than any year Nadal had so far and I'd personally put it over Fed's 2004, 2005 and 2007.

BTW. 2008 + Australin 2009 does not constitute for a year/season.

SLD76
12-22-2011, 06:13 AM
Most people? You mean Nadal fans?



Watching the re-run of 2010 USO final it is clear that Novak played nowhere near as good as he did at both AO and USO this year(especially AO).



You mean the performance in which he was on the brink of losing to his pigeon Troicki? You aren't serious are you?



Oh it's definitely better (not just on par) than any year Nadal had so far and I'd personally put it over Fed's 2004, 2005 and 2007.

BTW. 2008 + Australin 2009 does not constitute for a year/season.

even with his total collapse after USO??

zagor
12-22-2011, 06:16 AM
even with his total collapse after USO??

Yes, even with that. It comes down to a personal opinion, obviously it's debatable but I'd take Novak's 2011, the main reason being the winning streak (going half of the year undefeated) and a big title on every surface(AO+IW+Miami on slow HC, Rome and Madrid on clay, Wimbledon on grass, Canada and USO on medium-fast HC). It's a very balanced performance across all surfaces in a given year which is something I value a lot, even if today's homogenization makes it easier to adapt than before.

SLD76
12-22-2011, 06:17 AM
Yes, even with that. It comes down to a personal opinion, obviously it's debatable but I'd take Novak's 2011, the main reason being the winning streak (going half of the year undefeated) and a big title on every surface(AO+IW+Miami on slow HC, Rome and Madrid on clay, Wimbledon on grass, Canada and USO on medium-fast HC).

I dunno, I'll take someone dominating from start to finish, but the streak was impressive.

DRII
12-22-2011, 06:23 AM
You are divorced from reality.

Where facts are fluff and rantings and wishful thinking are set in stone.

Spot on trolling by you sir, well done.

Horrible reasoning here on your part...

How you can say 'what would have happened without Nole in 2011' is fact is completely devoid of logic!

SLD76
12-22-2011, 06:26 AM
Horrible reasoning here on your part...

How you can say 'what would have happened without Nole in 2011' is fact is completely devoid of logic!

Dont you have xmas presents to wrap, or tinker toys to play with?

run along now, let the grown ups continue the discussion.

DRII
12-22-2011, 06:31 AM
Most people? You mean Nadal fans?



Watching the re-run of 2010 USO final it is clear that Novak played nowhere near as good as he did at both AO and USO this year(especially AO).



You mean the performance in which he was on the brink of losing to his pigeon Troicki? You aren't serious are you?



Oh it's definitely better (not just on par) than any year Nadal had so far and I'd personally put it over Fed's 2004, 2005 and 2007.

BTW. 2008 + Australin 2009 does not constitute for a year/season.

Perhaps you should try and comprehend before responding, clearly this is too much to ask of the 'data' posse!

First; I was comparing finals performances only, not the entire tournaments!

Second; winning 3 out of 4 consecutive slams is winning 3 out of 4 consecutive slams regardless of when it takes place on the calendar. So Nadals 2008 season + 09 Aussie is certainly comparable...

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 06:32 AM
I dunno, I'll take someone dominating from start to finish, but the streak was impressive.

I'd have to agree with this. The terrible performance at the WTF by Djoker sealed the deal. For me djokers 2011 is behind Fec 2006 2004 but about on par with 2007 when all things are considered

celoft
12-22-2011, 06:32 AM
Claydal has never defended a title off clay. You all know that? As soon as he won Wimbledon and USO in 2010, it was a foregone conclusion he wouldn't defend any of those 2 slams in 2011 since he has never been able to defend off clay. Not even a mm title. :lol:

Federer has defended a title on clay, btw.

Federer >>>>>> Nadal

DRII
12-22-2011, 06:33 AM
Dont you have xmas presents to wrap, or tinker toys to play with?

run along now, let the grown ups continue the discussion.

Your attempt at humor is about as effective as your attempt at logic...

DRII
12-22-2011, 06:36 AM
Claydal has never defended a title off clay. You all know that? As soon as he won Wimbledon and USO in 2010, it was a foregone conclusion he wouldn't defend any of those 2 slams in 2011 since he has never been able to defend off clay. Not even a mm title. :lol:

Federer has defended a title on clay, btw.

Federer >>>>>> Nadal

Nadal has won 2 consecutive Wimbledons in which he competed.

Thanks...

zagor
12-22-2011, 06:38 AM
Perhaps you should try and comprehend before responding, clearly this is too much to ask of the 'data' posse!

I very rarely use the word "Data" but whatever.

First; I was comparing finals performances only, not the entire tournaments!

Then you should say 2010 USO Finals performance.

Second; winning 3 out of 4 consecutive slams is winning 3 out of 4 consecutive slams regardless of when it takes place on the calendar.

I don't give special value to 3 consecutive slams, it's still merely winning 3 out of 4 slams in a given year to me.

So Nadals 2008 season + 09 Aussie is certainly comparable...

Again Nadal's 2008+ 09 AO is not a season so you can't compare it to other season, you can compare it to other combinations such as say Fed's 2006 + 2009 FO or something.

Now Nadal's 2008 and 2010 alone can be compared to Novak's 2011 and personally I rate Novak's 2011 above both of them.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 06:44 AM
Oh I didn't realize there was no Wimbledon played in 2009

SLD76
12-22-2011, 06:49 AM
Oh I didn't realize there was no Wimbledon played in 2009

In DRII-Land which is just south of Fantasia, there wasnt one.

DRII
12-22-2011, 06:53 AM
The point is: Nadal won 2 consecutive Wimbledons in which he competed.

Now that is a fact. I'm surprised you 'data' hounds don't understand this...

Talker
12-22-2011, 06:56 AM
Nadal coming off such a great year and continuing to make finals in 2011 had everything in his favor.

He was confident and also had the huge mental advantage over Djokovic.
To turn this around not only mentally and with great play is a tremendous achievement beyond just winning.

I can't think off hand of anyone who has made this kind of change against a confident #1.

It was one of the most dramatic turn arounds in the history of tennis.

All-rounder
12-22-2011, 06:57 AM
As many have stated, Nadal would have had his best season ever in 2011 had it not have been for Djokovic. Just think, Nadal would have won IW and Miami then swept the clay season and on top probably in Wimbledon and US open.

Compare that to Nadal of 2010 where he didn't even make a final till Monte Carlo in which he was in title drought for a year.

All-rounder
12-22-2011, 06:58 AM
The point is: Nadal won 2 consecutive Wimbledons in which he competed.

Now that is a fact. I'm surprised you 'data' hounds don't understand this...
Consecutive?? Federer won Wimbledon in 2009 what are you on buddy?

Hitman
12-22-2011, 07:00 AM
The point is: Nadal won 2 consecutive Wimbledons in which he competed.

Now that is a fact. I'm surprised you 'data' hounds don't understand this...

That is a fact. Nadal won 2 consecutive Wimbledons that he chose to compete in. 08 and 10 were title wins for Rafa.

Another fact is, Nadal's first Wimbledon title defense was 09, and he withdrew. Failed to defend the title. Nadal's second attempt at defending Wimbledon was 11, and he lost in the final. Failed to defend the title. So Nadal has actually not defended the Wimbledon title.

Both the above are facts.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 07:28 AM
The point is: Nadal won 2 consecutive Wimbledons in which he competed.

Now that is a fact. I'm surprised you 'data' hounds don't understand this...

The fact is 2 consecutive W in which he competed in is not the same as 2 consecutive W. Can't you comprehend that???????

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 07:29 AM
I guess that means Federer won 6 consecutive Wimbledons, since 2003-2007, 2009. In 2008 he had mono.

Semi-Pro
12-22-2011, 07:31 AM
This DRII fellow is a real piece of work from what I've been reading thus far

TheMusicLover
12-22-2011, 07:37 AM
Funny thread. Keep it going follks! :D

Mike Sams
12-22-2011, 07:43 AM
I agree, the data does not lie, and Nadal is still very much in his prime. I guess it depends on the chasm that exist between him and Novak, but, I also think the chasm that exists between him and the players behind him. I do think his worst scenario would be losing the number two rank to Roger for various reasons.

I am really looking forward to seeing how the top guns come out. Novak and Rafa are normally at the their best earlier in the year, but if Roger catches fire, and displaces Rafa, things could get interesting.

I certainly wouldn't rule any of them out in the new season.

Would be hilarious seeing prime 25 year old Nadal lose his #2 ranking to past-prime 30 year old retiree Roger Federer. :lol: As if Nadal's confidence couldn't take more of a hit than it already has...to lose his ranking to an old man. :lol:
What's interesting is that it's entirely possible for Federer to take the #2 ranking despite being at the end of his career.

Mike Sams
12-22-2011, 07:45 AM
As many have stated, Nadal would have had his best season ever in 2011 had it not have been for Djokovic. Just think, Nadal would have won IW and Miami then swept the clay season and on top probably in Wimbledon and US open.

Compare that to Nadal of 2010 where he didn't even make a final till Monte Carlo in which he was in title drought for a year.

If not for Nadal, Federer would have had 3-4 insane seasons of winning just about everything. All 4 Slams consistently.
But there always has to be a main rival to stop you. Nadal stopped Federer, now Djokovic has stopped Nadal. Always a younger guy who comes around.

All-rounder
12-22-2011, 07:55 AM
If not for Nadal, Federer would have had 3-4 insane seasons of winning just about everything. All 4 Slams consistently.
But there always has to be a main rival to stop you. Nadal stopped Federer, now Djokovic has stopped Nadal. Always a younger guy who comes around.
Nadal stopped federer on 1 surface in his prime compared to Djokovic who has stopped Nadal on every surface in a year.

Sentinel
12-22-2011, 08:34 AM
This DRII fellow is a real piece of work from what I've been reading thus far
QFT. As Mike Sams was saying, there's always a piece of work who comes around. (I might have misquoted Mike a bit).

Nadal stopped federer on 1 surface in his prime compared to Djokovic who has stopped Nadal on every surface in a year.
Just you fellers wait till Nadal recovers his mental strength and humour. Didn't you read kiki's post that Nadal was "almost injured" throughout the year when he was not completely injured.

DRII
12-22-2011, 08:48 AM
This DRII fellow is a real piece of work from what I've been reading thus far

If by real piece of work you mean logical and rationale, then thanks for the compliment.

Otherwise, i would put you into the 'data' dogs group which consist of either non-discerning hypocrites and/or Nadal-haters devoid of any lucid concept of reality...

Sentinel
12-22-2011, 08:50 AM
If by real piece of work you mean logical and rationale, then thanks for the compliment.

Otherwise, i would put you into the 'data' dogs group which are either non-discerning hypocrites and/or Nadal-haters devoid of any lucid concept of reality...
... and full of lucidy and stupidy !

DRII
12-22-2011, 08:57 AM
... and full of lucidy and stupidy !

Your words, not mine...

FlashFlare11
12-22-2011, 08:59 AM
Yes, I think it should definitely be taken into account. Nadal was coming off of the best year in his career. He was basically the favorite for every tournament this year, the established No. 1. For Novak to come into this year the way he did, establishing himself as a real threat to Federer's No. 2 ranking, taking it, and then defeating Nadal 6 consecutive times to take the top ranking is truly an achievement. Novak, for what he did this past year, totally deserves his ranking.

With his performance this year, I cannot say Nadal's level was lower. Without Djokovic, Nadal quite possibly could have had his greatest season ever. Nadal, for most of his career since winning his first slam, has won one slam a year. This is what is normal for him. He did well to reach the Wimbledon final and it was extremely impressive for him to have reached the US Open final. This is the type of consistency we haven't seen from Nadal before this year. To say his level was lower because he basically lost to only one guy this year is absurd, especially considering all the finals he made this year.

celoft
12-22-2011, 09:00 AM
Since Nadal has never defended off clay, had Federer reached the final of the USO, perhaps he would have beaten Nadal this year, no?

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 09:16 AM
... and full of lucidy and stupidy !

Your words, not mine...

Not surprising at all.

Only a moron like yourself would use a oxymoronic phrase like 'highest level of stupidy' and actually think your saying anything of note.

TMF
12-22-2011, 09:32 AM
Of course, we rational individuals will wait and see what actually happens next year. If Nadal improves to the level that he was in 2010 and still loses to Nole - then that will be the case and corresponding credit will be given or vice versa. I suggest you wait and see...

It will never happen. If Nadal consistently making to the finals next year and still loses to Nole, you and his fans will continue to say that Nadal's level is below 2010. And Nole have never beaten peak Rafa.


Stop being so angry(and emotional) when posters disagree with you.

DRII
12-22-2011, 09:47 AM
Not surprising at all.

You're actually silly enough to quote my mis-spelling of your moronic phrase! Yet, i bet you think you proven something :confused:

DRII
12-22-2011, 09:50 AM
It will never happen. If Nadal consistently making to the finals next year and still loses to Nole, you and his fans will continue to say that Nadal's level is below 2010. And Nole have never beaten peak Rafa.


Stop being so angry(and emotional) when posters disagree with you.

What exactly is angry or emotional in my quote? My retorts are rational, not based on emotion.

I will admit I have little patience for hypocrisy!

Semi-Pro
12-22-2011, 10:02 AM
If by real piece of work you mean logical and rationale, then thanks for the compliment.

Otherwise, i would put you into the 'data' dogs group which consist of either non-discerning hypocrites and/or Nadal-haters devoid of any lucid concept of reality...

So lets just ignore the data and base everything on our subjective thoughts and feelings. Is this what you are proposing?:lol:

TMF
12-22-2011, 10:13 AM
What exactly is angry or emotional in my quote? My retorts are rational, not based on emotion.

I will admit I have little patience for hypocrisy!

There's no need for you to verbally attack other posters simply they disagree with you. Your reaction tells me that your blood is boiling.

Your opinion doesn't have anymore merit than the other members opinion. Yet, you call yourself being rational but not them? And it's you against them. Being outnumbered is a losing battle .

Calm down. Stressing out is not good for your health.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 10:31 AM
There's no need for you to verbally attack other posters simply they disagree with you. Your reaction tells me that your blood is boiling.

Your opinion doesn't have anymore merit than the other members opinion. Yet, you call yourself being rational but not them? And it's you against them. Being outnumbered is a losing battle .

Calm down. Stressing out is not good for your health.

You can definitely see he's really upset. Wouldn't want to be in the same room with him now.

TMF
12-22-2011, 10:44 AM
You can definitely see he's really upset. Wouldn't want to be in the same room with him now.

Yeah, notice that in his own thread("More proof...") he get riled up just because other members disagree with him about Venus's best is the best. He makes it sound like he's the only one who's watching tennis.

It's a good thing this is the internet...I wouldn't feel safe to be with him in public. Scary !

aphex
12-22-2011, 11:08 AM
You're actually silly enough to quote my mis-spelling of your moronic phrase! Yet, i bet you think you proven something :confused:

What exactly is angry or emotional in my quote? My retorts are rational, not based on emotion.

I will admit I have little patience for hypocrisy!

http://troll.me/images/xzibit-yo-dawg/lol-but-y-u-mad-tho.jpg

single_handed_champion
12-22-2011, 11:08 AM
It will never happen. If Nadal consistently making to the finals next year and still loses to Nole, you and his fans will continue to say that Nadal's level is below 2010. And Nole have never beaten peak Rafa.

This is so true. Of course, Djokovic fans would generously claim that Nadal owned a peak Djokovic until this year....

Oh wait...

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 11:19 AM
This is so true. Of course, Djokovic fans would generously claim that Nadal owned a peak Djokovic until this year....

Oh wait...

The data don't support that Djoker was at his peak until 2011. Check the data. Compare Djoker 2010 vs 2011 and Nadal 2010 vs 2011.

single_handed_champion
12-22-2011, 11:29 AM
The data don't support that Djoker was at his peak until 2011. Check the data. Compare Djoker 2010 vs 2011 and Nadal 2010 vs 2011.

You cannot define one person's best average level as his peak just because another's peak coincided with his best average level.

Since this board values Slams so much, Nadal 2010 = 3 Slams, Nadal 2011 = 1. Do the math.

aphex
12-22-2011, 11:29 AM
This is so true. Of course, Djokovic fans would generously claim that Nadal owned a peak Djokovic until this year....

Oh wait...

How many finals did Djokovic make in 2010?
How many did he make in 2011?

How many finals did the nadal make in 2010?
How many did he make in 2011?

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 11:36 AM
You cannot define one person's best average level as his peak just because another's peak coincided with his best average level.

Since this board values Slams so much, Nadal 2010 = 3 Slams, Nadal 2011 = 1. Do the math.

Slams cannot be used as the argument since they are the final prize. Otherwise you end up saying Nadal never loses when he's peak. Which is impossible right? So slams cannot be used since Nadal got to the final and lost precisely to the guy he's being compared to. If Nadal lost the slams in earlier rounds then yes you can use slams as an argument.

Therefore you have to use the next best things, like slam finals, winning %, etc. And you will see a much bigger difference in Djoker 2011 vs. 2010 than Nadal's. Check it!

FlashFlare11
12-22-2011, 11:44 AM
Slams cannot be used as the argument since they are the final prize. Otherwise you end up saying Nadal never loses when he's peak. Which is impossible right? So slams cannot be used since Nadal got to the final and lost precisely to the guy he's being compared to. If Nadal lost the slams in earlier rounds then yes you can use slams as an argument.

Therefore you have to use the next best things, like slam finals, winning %, etc. And you will see a much bigger difference in Djoker 2011 vs. 2010 than Nadal's. Check it!

You know, I'm starting to think that some of these people (not fans like MichaelNadal and Mustard) just want to throw an asterisk around every tournament Nadal doesn't win.

First Federer should basically have an asterisk next to 14 of his 16 slam wins, plus any other tournament he wins without facing Nadal or beating Nadal when he's "fatigued." Now, all of Djokovic's wins over Nadal in the past year should be denoted because Nadal was supposedly not in his prime.

What will it take for some people to realize Nadal can lose at his best?

TMF
12-22-2011, 11:54 AM
^^
Nadal doesn't loses unless he's injured, fatigue, and/or burned-out. Federer and Nole were lucky to beat a fully 100% Nadal.

DRII
12-22-2011, 01:06 PM
Yeah, notice that in his own thread("More proof...") he get riled up just because other members disagree with him about Venus's best is the best. He makes it sound like he's the only one who's watching tennis.

It's a good thing this is the internet...I wouldn't feel safe to be with him in public. Scary !

Your naivete might be come across as cute if it weren't for your ignorance.

If you have DFTW supporting you, then you know something is wrong!

DRII
12-22-2011, 01:16 PM
You cannot define one person's best average level as his peak just because another's peak coincided with his best average level.

Since this board values Slams so much, Nadal 2010 = 3 Slams, Nadal 2011 = 1. Do the math.

Your post is simply too logical for the 'data' gang!

Expect irrational responses...

FlashFlare11
12-22-2011, 01:24 PM
Your naivete might be come across as cute if it weren't for your ignorance.

If you have DFTW supporting you, then you know something is wrong!

Actually, DjokovicForTheWin is a very reasonable poster. He brings up a lot of reasonable points and, although is a fan of Djokovic, can admit when he loses or Federer or Nadal have better credentials. Far from a "troll" or a "****."

OddJack
12-22-2011, 01:26 PM
Yeah,

Just like Federer's consistency on clay made the friggin H2H so special for you.

DRII
12-22-2011, 01:32 PM
Actually, DjokovicForTheWin is a very reasonable poster. He brings up a lot of reasonable points and, although is a fan of Djokovic, can admit when he loses or Federer or Nadal have better credentials. Far from a "troll" or a "****."

Actually, you're in the minority if you feel that way.

However there's no accounting for taste, so to each his own...

FlashFlare11
12-22-2011, 01:53 PM
Actually, you're in the minority if you feel that way.

However there's no accounting for taste, so to each his own...

He makes a lot of jovial posts, but he doesn't make any ridiculous statements and almost everything he posts can be backed-up through available data. That's why I think he's a reasonable poster.

jackson vile
12-22-2011, 05:16 PM
Nadal's level wasn't low. He made the finals of 3 slams, and the finals of a lot of masters tournaments. The only difference between Nadal of 2010 and Nadal of 2011 is that 2010 Nadal had a nasty serve for 2 weeks.

If Nadal was able to take either Miami or IW from Djokovic, then this year would have been completely different. Djok managed to get into Nadal's head.

So then we can agree that Federer was still at his best far past age 27, still making finals along with slams until 2011.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 05:29 PM
So then we can agree that Federer was still at his best far past age 27, still making finals along with slams until 2011.

Federer only made one slam final in 2010 and one in 2011. Nadal made 6 of them in that time

Crazy man
12-22-2011, 05:33 PM
He makes a lot of jovial posts, but he doesn't make any ridiculous statements and almost everything he posts can be backed-up through available data. That's why I think he's a reasonable poster.

He called Agassi more talented than Sampras. I hit that dude on the ignore list since that post.

bullfan
12-22-2011, 06:15 PM
Just like Nadal. Except Nadal was lose lose lose lose

I think that you are ignoring Nadal's Win, Win, Win, Win during DC after USO, when all folks saw his as beaten up.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 06:22 PM
I think that you are ignoring Nadal's Win, Win, Win, Win during DC after USO, when all folks saw his as beaten up.

I don't ignore it. Congrats to Rafa for the DC win. Well deserved. His form is as good as ever.

bullfan
12-22-2011, 06:22 PM
So then we can agree that Federer was still at his best far past age 27, still making finals along with slams until 2011.

Well, time will tell how those younger than 27 do, but I'd be surprised if any of them do as well as Fed.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 06:23 PM
He called Agassi more talented than Sampras. I hit that dude on the ignore list since that post.

That was my subjective opinion. Pretty meaningless. Of course I acknowledge Sampras achieved more overall. But never underestimate the value of the career slam in that era. The only guy to do it.

SLD76
12-22-2011, 06:28 PM
Agassi= lenny kravitz

sure lenny is a very very talented musician.

best songwriter? no, but he has had his share of hits

best singer? no, but he carries a tune

Best instrumentalist? no, but he plays a variety of instruments extremely well.


sampras=jeff buckley

incredible songwriter, incredible singer. very good guitarist.

is buckley as varied as lenny? no, but buckley at his strengths, blows lenny out of the water.


at least, thats how I see it.

bullfan
12-22-2011, 06:34 PM
I don't ignore it. Congrats to Rafa for the DC win. Well deserved. His form is as good as ever.

Then you shouldn't have just said lose, lose, lose, lose for him.... He did much better than Novak post USO after losing again in a GS to Novak. Sure, his far east wing sucked, but he was as beat down as Novak, playing as much as Novak did, and he finished it out much better than Novak....

Trust me, I'm not dismissing the fact that Novak owned Nadal in 2011. Quite frankly, I think it was good for Novak to lose in DC to Delpo, rather than face Nadal possibly twice to lose. There's no way he'd have won even on HC, Novak was just beaten down after his year. Novak took his body to the limits this year, and had an awesome year...... We'll just have to see how long it takes for Novak to get back to form, and how impressive he'll be.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 07:04 PM
Then you shouldn't have just said lose, lose, lose, lose for him.... He did much better than Novak post USO after losing again in a GS to Novak. Sure, his far east wing sucked, but he was as beat down as Novak, playing as much as Novak did, and he finished it out much better than Novak....

Trust me, I'm not dismissing the fact that Novak owned Nadal in 2011. Quite frankly, I think it was good for Novak to lose in DC to Delpo, rather than face Nadal possibly twice to lose. There's no way he'd have won even on HC, Novak was just beaten down after his year. Novak took his body to the limits this year, and had an awesome year...... We'll just have to see how long it takes for Novak to get back to form, and how impressive he'll be.

Davis cup doesn't count in your W/L record for the year does it?????

bullfan
12-22-2011, 07:12 PM
Davis cup doesn't count in your W/L record for the year does it?????

Well, considering that Novak's 2011 was sparked by his 2010 DC Win makes one wonder...

It seems that DC 2010 was awesome for Novak's 2011 until it came around to 2011 DC, when it was a huge who cares, think about other things. I find that pretty hypocritical. The spark was considered zero compared to what it started, and how it pitifully ended with the horrible pathetic hollywood drama queen Delpo tearful match. It's why I have issues with Novak. he seems to be such a drama queen that he makes Nadal's drama queen stuff look tame.

Mike Sams
12-22-2011, 07:14 PM
Then you shouldn't have just said lose, lose, lose, lose for him.... He did much better than Novak post USO after losing again in a GS to Novak. Sure, his far east wing sucked, but he was as beat down as Novak, playing as much as Novak did, and he finished it out much better than Novak....

Trust me, I'm not dismissing the fact that Novak owned Nadal in 2011. Quite frankly, I think it was good for Novak to lose in DC to Delpo, rather than face Nadal possibly twice to lose. There's no way he'd have won even on HC, Novak was just beaten down after his year. Novak took his body to the limits this year, and had an awesome year...... We'll just have to see how long it takes for Novak to get back to form, and how impressive he'll be.

I'm sure Djokovic would've won more than 3 games against Federer at the WTF, bullfan.
And David Ferrer basically beat Del Potro up at Davis Cup. Nadal just took out the scraps. Del Potro isn't even close to his best. 60+ UEs shows that.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-22-2011, 07:17 PM
Well, considering that Novak's 2011 was sparked by his 2010 DC Win makes one wonder...

It seems that DC 2010 was awesome for Novak's 2011 until it came around to 2011 DC, when it was a huge who cares, think about other things. I find that pretty hypocritical. The spark was considered zero compared to what it started, and how it pitifully ended with the horrible pathetic hollywood drama queen Delpo tearful match. It's why I have issues with Novak. he seems to be such a drama queen that he makes Nadal's drama queen stuff look tame.

You didn't answer the question. Davis cup wins don't count in the official W/L record of the year do they???????

bullfan
12-22-2011, 07:22 PM
I'm sure Djokovic would've won more than 3 games against Federer at the WTF, bullfan.
And David Ferrer basically beat Del Potro up at Davis Cup. Nadal just took out the scraps. Del Potro isn't even close to his best. 60+ UEs shows that.

Well, Are you saying that Delpo beat a Serb and wasn't beat up for Novak? Shoot, Nadal played 2 matches to the portion of 1 that Novak played in the SF of DC, where he kicked proverbial azz. As opposed to the pathetic drama queen style that Novak collapsed in post USO with Delpo.

It's laughable to see that Novak was in any way better shape after USO than Nadal. We're all seeing how well Novak starts out the year, and I have my doubts. I'm not going to debate how well Novak would have done v. Fed during WTF since they didn't play. Novak didn't look good at all. Neither did Nadal.

sbengte
12-22-2011, 08:15 PM
The only thing hypothetical is your assumption of any knowledge of tennis.

FACT: Nadal made what was it....7 finals in a row

Indian Wells, Miami, Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Rome, Madrid, FO

I believe he won 3 of those finals( monte carlo, barcelona, FO)- incidentally in all three wins he faced no Djoker.

He made the finals of Wimbledon, USO and Tokyo.

Thus he made 10 finals across all surfaces in one year, a career best I think.

He made the finals of 3 slams, for the second time
He made back to back finals in a HC tourny an unprecedented I believe what, 3 times? ( IW or was it Miami, USO, Tokyo)

In other words he was consistent this year in a way he had never been in his career before. He was *better* than he was in 2010.

The problem was, instead of Federer or the non-big 4 opponents he faced in finals last year(Berdych, Soderling etc), he had to play a physically and mentally improved Djoker.


Thus if not for Djoker, and let me say this slowly, if not for Djoker Rafa would have had the best year of his career, thus by implication in 2011 his play was as good if not better than 2010

One additional piece of information :

Ralph faced and won a lot more matches against the top 10 in 2011 compared to 2010 which clearly indicates that his level was better in 2011 and he made it deep into more tournaments.

2010 : 11-5 W/L against top 10
2011: 16-11 W/L against top 10

Why do the Ralph haters still believe Ralph's level went down in 2011 ? He improved if anything , just like he does every year. Unless you want to interpret the above data differently , i.e he was just lucky he didn't have to face as many top 10 players in 2010 which was his most amazing 3 slam year.

TMF
12-22-2011, 08:41 PM
One additional piece of information :

Ralph faced and won a lot more matches against the top 10 in 2011 compared to 2010 which clearly indicates that his level was better in 2011 and he made it deep into more tournaments.

2010 : 11-5 W/L against top 10
2011: 16-11 W/L against top 10

Why do the Ralph haters still believe Ralph's level went down in 2011 ? He improved if anything , just like he does every year. Unless you want to interpret the above data differently , i.e he was just lucky he didn't have to face as many top 10 players in 2010 which was his most amazing 3 slam year.

Actually a lot of die hard rafa fans claim Nadal has declined massively this year.

sbengte
12-22-2011, 09:14 PM
^^^ Then they are haters posing as die hard fans. True Ralph fans would never say that and insult him because like it or not, Ralph improves every year.

zagor
12-23-2011, 12:49 AM
So then we can agree that Federer was still at his best far past age 27, still making finals along with slams until 2011.

Nice try LOLville but not quite there yet.

You see the year Fed made his personal record # of slam + masters finals was 2006, you don't see anyone claiming Fed has declined in 2006 now, do you?

On the other hand the year Nadal made his personal highest # of slam + masters finals was 2011.

Got it now ?

zagor
12-23-2011, 12:53 AM
^^^ Then they are haters posing as die hard fans. True Ralph fans would never say that and insult him because like it or not, Ralph improves every year.

Agree, some people on this forum are really hard on Nadal. Calling him old and washed up at the mere age of 24, calling his BH is a moonball, saying that his balls are short, he's playing crappy tennis etc.

They should really give Nadal a break, as you said he improved in 2011 compared to the year before like he always does, his humble attitude always drives him to work hard to perfect his game and improve it further, he never rests on his laurels.

Hitman
12-23-2011, 12:57 AM
Agree, some people on this forum are really hard on Nadal. Calling him old and washed up at the mere age of 24, calling his BH is a moonball, saying that his balls are short, he's playing crappy tennis etc.

They should really give Nadal a break, as you said he improved in 2011 compared to the year before like he always does, his humble attitude always drives him to work hard to perfect his game and improve it further, he never rests on his laurels.

Nadal was incredible this year, a complete all court beast. We saw the best of him this year, and he shut up all the haters that said he can't play at his peak on all surfaces at the same time. He certainly did it here. Five straight Masters finals, and three straight slam finals..insane! :shock:

Sentinel
12-23-2011, 04:29 AM
How many finals did Djokovic make in 2010?
How many did he make in 2011?

How many finals did the nadal make in 2010?
How many did he make in 2011?
I so hate it when facts get in the way of the truth. Nadal had an awful year no matter what the facts and data imply.
He was either almost injured, tired, actually injured, almost tired, depleted in humour, and a couple of other things we might mention next year.

Noel was lucky to face an old, geriatric Fred, and a sub-par Nadal. If Nadal's lack of form continues into next year we might declare his entire career a slump (barring the short period he sneaked in a handful of slams facing a pediatric Nole and a geriatric Fred).

DRII
12-23-2011, 06:44 AM
One additional piece of information :

Ralph faced and won a lot more matches against the top 10 in 2011 compared to 2010 which clearly indicates that his level was better in 2011 and he made it deep into more tournaments.

2010 : 11-5 W/L against top 10
2011: 16-11 W/L against top 10

Why do the Ralph haters still believe Ralph's level went down in 2011 ? He improved if anything , just like he does every year. Unless you want to interpret the above data differently , i.e he was just lucky he didn't have to face as many top 10 players in 2010 which was his most amazing 3 slam year.

More proof that these 'data' dogs are absolutely horrible at mathematics and therefore should stay away from their so called data arguments!

All-rounder
12-23-2011, 06:58 AM
More proof that these 'data' dogs are absolutely horrible at mathematics and therefore should stay away from their so called data arguments!
So what exactly are you basing your argument off then?? If data is so unreliable to you??

DRII
12-23-2011, 07:08 AM
So what exactly are you basing your argument off then?? If data is so unreliable to you??

What my eyes have seen this past year!

If you don't trust yours, then that's your problem!

All-rounder
12-23-2011, 07:33 AM
What my eyes have seen this past year!

If you don't trust yours, then that's your problem!
Oh I do. My eyes have seen Nadal lose 6 finals in a row to one player in a year. That player stopped him from having an even better 2010 season, it's that simple really.

TMF
12-23-2011, 10:14 AM
What my eyes have seen this past year!

If you don't trust yours, then that's your problem!

Of course we trust our eyes, but we all share the same opinion(except you).

cc0509
12-23-2011, 10:27 AM
Djokovic was very consistent at the year end: retire, retire, lose, lose.

It does not matter. Djokovic won the important titles (aside from the FO and WTF.)
His post USO mode though totally annoying and unprofessional, was just an opportunity to reserve some fuel for him to be fresh for 2012.

DRII
12-23-2011, 06:21 PM
Oh I do. My eyes have seen Nadal lose 6 finals in a row to one player in a year. That player stopped him from having an even better 2010 season, it's that simple really.

And your point is???

I wouldn't care if Nadal had won all of those finals! If he had done so playing the way he has the majority of this year he still would have played worse than 2010!

If you cannot discern between paper stats and actual play, then that's your problem!

DRII
12-23-2011, 06:25 PM
Of course we trust our eyes, but we all share the same opinion(except you).

If by we all, you mean the non-discernable 'data' dogs; then I agree with you!

All-rounder
12-23-2011, 06:47 PM
And your point is???

I wouldn't care if Nadal had won all of those finals! If he had done so playing the way he has the majority of this year he still would have played worse than 2010!

If you cannot discern between paper stats and actual play, then that's your problem!
If you can't distinguish between 'facts' and some made up bias opinion formed in your mind. Then it's actually you has the problem. Saying ''My point is valid because my eyes see what is considered correct'' is just fallacy.

DRII
12-23-2011, 07:26 PM
If you can't distinguish between 'facts' and some made up bias opinion formed in your mind. Then it's actually you has the problem. Saying ''My point is valid because my eyes see what is considered correct'' is just fallacy.

First off, horrible syntax and sentence construction on your part!

However, regardless; what exactly are you calling facts. How a player plays is a qualitative judgement not a factual one! So get your 'facts' straight!

Results are not always indicative of level of play... Try and comprehend that!

TMF
12-23-2011, 07:31 PM
If by we all, you mean the non-discernable 'data' dogs; then I agree with you!

No, we are simply talking about observation, which you have little or no one in here agree with you. You need more support.

sbengte
12-23-2011, 09:45 PM
And your point is???

I wouldn't care if Nadal had won all of those finals! If he had done so playing the way he has the majority of this year he still would have played worse than 2010!


Of course it will seem that he played worse than 2010 because this year he didn't have Verdasco , Youzhny, Berdych and Nole 1.0 as opponents to make him look "better" like in 2010.

Tennis is not golf where your level can be measured or compared absolutely. It is a 1-1 battle and your level is relative to your opponent on the other side of the net, who also has a say in how better or worse your game looks.

Nole 2.0 just made Nadal look worse this year and it had nothing to do with Nadal's game deteriorating. If anything, he looked better than 2010 for parts of the Wimbledon and USO finals. Of course as the year progressed and Nadal started losing all those finals, it may have resulted in some loss of confidence for Nadal leading to a poor post USO season. But then he has traditionally never done well post USO.

All-rounder
12-23-2011, 10:05 PM
First off, horrible syntax and sentence construction on your part!

However, regardless; what exactly are you calling facts. How a player plays is a qualitative judgement not a factual one! So get your 'facts' straight!

Results are not always indicative of level of play... Try and comprehend that!
So using this logic, Nadal played worse in 2011 yet got deeper in tournaments compared to 2010. How can you play worse and do better at the same time??????????

DRII
12-23-2011, 10:47 PM
So using this logic, Nadal played worse in 2011 yet got deeper in tournaments compared to 2010. How can you play worse and do better at the same time??????????

Again, results are not always indicative of level of play! Why do you find it so hard to understand that???

You are assuming a level and constant playing field from year to year, which is usually not the case! You also seem to assume that all wins are of the same quality, which is also not true.

An example of another player who experienced a similar situation like that of Nadal 2010 to Nadal 2011; is Venus Williams 2001 to 2002. In 2001 Venus was at her peak, particularly in the summer of 2001, absolutely crushing opponents with ease and winning like 5 straight tournaments including Wimbledon and the USO. Then in 2002 her level dropped off but was still high enough to get pass most opponents except for her sister Serena (Nole for Nadal) who had reached her peak that year. Although Venus was more consistent in 2002 reaching the finals of every grand slam she was not as dangerous a player. She was slower, didn't have as an effective serve, and lacked some penetration on her ground strokes but was a little more consistent.

So qualitatively a player can have more consistent results while playing worse. It all depends on the level of overall competition and aggregate degree of domination of total victories.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-24-2011, 06:00 AM
LOLLL. One player still playing his best but getting owned by another simply better player orrrr the entire field of tennis players magically and simultaneously dropping their level in 2011????

Occam anyone? LOL. It seems utter stupidity has no bounds

aphex
12-24-2011, 06:19 AM
Again, results are not always indicative of level of play! Why do you find it so hard to understand that???

You are assuming a level and constant playing field from year to year, which is usually not the case! You also seem to assume that all wins are of the same quality, which is also not true.

An example of another player who experienced a similar situation like that of Nadal 2010 to Nadal 2011; is Venus Williams 2001 to 2002. In 2001 Venus was at her peak, particularly in the summer of 2001, absolutely crushing opponents with ease and winning like 5 straight tournaments including Wimbledon and the USO. Then in 2002 her level dropped off but was still high enough to get pass most opponents except for her sister Serena (Nole for Nadal) who had reached her peak that year. Although Venus was more consistent in 2002 reaching the finals of every grand slam she was not as dangerous a player. She was slower, didn't have as an effective serve, and lacked some penetration on her ground strokes but was a little more consistent.

So qualitatively a player can have more consistent results while playing worse. It all depends on the level of overall competition and aggregate degree of domination of total victories.

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/2/23668/1884407-y_u_mad.jpg

Mike Sams
12-24-2011, 06:32 AM
Nadal 2010 is the most overrated player in history. He was losing to the likes of Roddick and Ljubicic. Heck even USO 2010 he was having a hell of a time against Gabashvilli. Thank goodness he got a **** easy draw to help him bag the title.
Even his Wimbledon performance was nothing special. Basically fighting for his life against Petschener and Haase and beating up on that clown Berdych in the final who'd never made a Slam final in his life.

aphex
12-24-2011, 06:34 AM
Nadal 2010 is the most overrated player in history. He was losing to the likes of Roddick and Ljubicic. Heck even USO 2010 he was having a hell of a time against Gabashvilli. Thank goodness he got a **** easy draw to help him bag the title.
Even his Wimbledon performance was nothing special. Basically fighting for his life against Petschener and Haase and beating up on that clown Berdych in the final who'd never made a Slam final in his life.

Everyone bar hardcore nadfools knows this.

2011 Ralph would never lose against grandpa Lube and journeymuppet GGLopez.

Mike Sams
12-24-2011, 06:35 AM
Again, results are not always indicative of level of play! Why do you find it so hard to understand that???

You are assuming a level and constant playing field from year to year, which is usually not the case! You also seem to assume that all wins are of the same quality, which is also not true.

An example of another player who experienced a similar situation like that of Nadal 2010 to Nadal 2011; is Venus Williams 2001 to 2002. In 2001 Venus was at her peak, particularly in the summer of 2001, absolutely crushing opponents with ease and winning like 5 straight tournaments including Wimbledon and the USO. Then in 2002 her level dropped off but was still high enough to get pass most opponents except for her sister Serena (Nole for Nadal) who had reached her peak that year. Although Venus was more consistent in 2002 reaching the finals of every grand slam she was not as dangerous a player. She was slower, didn't have as an effective serve, and lacked some penetration on her ground strokes but was a little more consistent.

So qualitatively a player can have more consistent results while playing worse. It all depends on the level of overall competition and aggregate degree of domination of total victories.

Nadal's 2010 has gone to your head. It had much much more to do with the pathetic level of his surrounding competition more than anything. NOBODY was in form for much of that year. Federer was losing finals to his pigeons Hewitt and guys like Montanes and barely made it out of the first round of Wimbledon against Falla.
Djokovic was losing to everybody in the top 10 and hitting more double faults than anybody on the tour. Murray was Murray...disappearing after the AO. Del Potro was in and out of hospital throughout.
There was NO competition for Nadal. His path was completely cleared. His 2010 is highly overrated!

Sentinel
12-24-2011, 07:35 AM
Agree, some people on this forum are really hard on Nadal. Calling him old and washed up at the mere age of 24, calling his BH is a moonball, saying that his balls are short, he's playing crappy tennis etc.

They should really give Nadal a break, as you said he improved in 2011 compared to the year before like he always does, his humble attitude always drives him to work hard to perfect his game and improve it further, he never rests on his laurels.
Did someone really say that ? Oh wait, that could only be Babbette.

Sentinel
12-24-2011, 07:37 AM
Nadal 2010 is the most overrated player in history. He was losing to the likes of Roddick and Ljubicic. Heck even USO 2010 he was having a hell of a time against Gabashvilli. Thank goodness he got a **** easy draw to help him bag the title.
Even his Wimbledon performance was nothing special. Basically fighting for his life against Petschener and Haase and beating up on that clown Berdych in the final who'd never made a Slam final in his life.
"Fight for his life" !!???

Well that;s being very generous if you know what I mean (i suppose it's the XMAS spirit !)

Mike Sams
12-24-2011, 07:40 AM
"Fight for his life" !!???

Well that;s being very generous if you know what I mean (i suppose it's the XMAS spirit !)

It took him a convenient MTO to help get through Petsch. :lol:

DRII
12-24-2011, 08:24 AM
Nadal's 2010 has gone to your head. It had much much more to do with the pathetic level of his surrounding competition more than anything. NOBODY was in form for much of that year. Federer was losing finals to his pigeons Hewitt and guys like Montanes and barely made it out of the first round of Wimbledon against Falla.
Djokovic was losing to everybody in the top 10 and hitting more double faults than anybody on the tour. Murray was Murray...disappearing after the AO. Del Potro was in and out of hospital throughout.
There was NO competition for Nadal. His path was completely cleared. His 2010 is highly overrated!

So now you finally admit that there is a qualitative basis for the assessment of a player's results in any given year! Hypocrisy much? You 'data' dogs know no shame!

So Nadal's 2010 was just because of weak competition, but Noles 2011 was only due to his awakening of superiority??? OK sure whatever you say.

The point is you've admitted that results on paper are not 100% correlated to a player's level or form! Which is what I've been saying the whole time, so just because Nadal had a more consistent year in 2011 doesn't mean he played better. If he played better is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that Nadal certainly played worse this year vs last year without question! Perhaps if you weren't so blinded by Nadal hate, like the other data dogs, you would admit it as well!

Hitman
12-24-2011, 08:58 AM
So now you finally admit that there is a qualitative basis for the assessment of a player's results in any given year! Hypocrisy much? You 'data' dogs know no shame!

So Nadal's 2010 was just because of weak competition, but Noles 2011 was only due to his awakening of superiority??? OK sure whatever you say.

The point is you've admitted that results on paper are not 100% correlated to a player's level or form! Which is what I've been saying the whole time, so just because Nadal had a more consistent year in 2011 doesn't mean he played better. If he played better is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that Nadal certainly played worse this year vs last year without question! Perhaps if you weren't so blinded by Nadal hate, like the other data dogs, you would admit it as well!

http://bighugelabs.com/output/motivator86c68d56ab877cbaaec17c6e4df9faf053b200da. jpg

DRII
12-24-2011, 09:04 AM
Lol...

Pretty good.

Thanks for caring so much.

Hitman
12-24-2011, 09:08 AM
Lol...

Pretty good.

Thanks for caring so much.

I think things get a little too serious around here sometimes, and even though we all have different opinions...After all, different opinions, when expressed properly lead to very good discussions..sometimes things get a little too stand-offish, which kind of derails the point of the discussion.

TMF
12-24-2011, 09:10 AM
So now you finally admit that there is a qualitative basis for the assessment of a player's results in any given year! Hypocrisy much? You 'data' dogs know no shame!

So Nadal's 2010 was just because of weak competition, but Noles 2011 was only due to his awakening of superiority??? OK sure whatever you say.

The point is you've admitted that results on paper are not 100% correlated to a player's level or form! Which is what I've been saying the whole time, so just because Nadal had a more consistent year in 2011 doesn't mean he played better. If he played better is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that Nadal certainly played worse this year vs last year without question! Perhaps if you weren't so blinded by Nadal hate, like the other data dogs, you would admit it as well!

DRII need a long vacation to clear his mind.

http://croatia.hr/Images/t900x600-1509/Croatia_vacation_natural_stress_relief_0011.jpg

Sentinel
12-24-2011, 09:16 AM
It took him a convenient MTO to help get through Petsch. :lol:
Thanks for not using the C-word. Its XMAS here in 14 minutes (my place).

DjokovicForTheWin
12-24-2011, 10:00 AM
No such thing as weak year or weak playing field. But if you were go so far as to want to analyze that, just analyze the players Nadal beat in 2010 vs. 2011. Big difference. However, playing field changing is utter stupidity, or stupidy as you prefer. The truth of the matter is Djoker is simply better than Nadal now. The data prove it. Data is the only objectivity we have.

nikdom
12-24-2011, 10:06 AM
Djoko was always the better player technically. Just took him a little while to start dominating Nadal.

vernonbc
12-25-2011, 07:50 AM
Djoko was always the better player technically. Just took him a little while to start dominating Nadal.

Yeah, Djoko was always terrific. Everyone that beat him in 2010 and 2009 and earlier was just a bump in the road until he figured out how great he was. Yeesh, Fedfans have long been delusional but Djoker fans are outdoing them by a long shot now. :roll:

Sentinel
12-25-2011, 08:18 AM
Djoko was always the better player technically. Just took him a little while to start dominating Nadal.
I think the gluten issue really can explain how he was before and after he got off gluten. I suffered severe breathing problems as a distance runner till I got off wheat accidentally. The change in both training and comp was dramatic in the space of a few months.

Now that he's found what was holding him back, he may keep playing at the same level for a few more years. Provided he doesn't get injured.

Mike Sams
12-25-2011, 09:33 AM
I think the gluten issue really can explain how he was before and after he got off gluten. I suffered severe breathing problems as a distance runner till I got off wheat accidentally. The change in both training and comp was dramatic in the space of a few months.

Now that he's found what was holding him back, he may keep playing at the same level for a few more years. Provided he doesn't get injured.

If Djokovic's style is completely the same as it was and it's only his diet that changed, then it means Djokovic always had the talent but never the fitness. Nothing in his game other than his serve has improved in the past couple of years. Djokovic deserves to be regarded as by and far the best player in the world today as his ranking proves.

kishnabe
12-25-2011, 09:38 AM
If Novak played Federer or Murray in all the finals Nadal reached and won. It wouldn't be as special....since Murray is a flake sometimes....which would demerit Djokovic achievements. Federer may be playing well but he is a declined version of his prime self.....still better than playing Murray.

At least with Nadal....he came off with his best year....and could have had a better year. He is in his prime, playing every point as hard as he can with passion. Playing Nadal I bet is annoying more than Federer and the others since he gets all these balls back. You need mental patience.....so For Djokovic too pull that off at 6 grand stages is a huge testament to his ability.

Hitman
12-25-2011, 09:41 AM
If Novak played Federer or Murray in all the finals Nadal reached and won. It wouldn't be as special....since Murray is a flake sometimes....which would demerit Djokovic achievements. Federer may be playing well but he is a declined version of his prime self.....still better than playing Murray.

At least with Nadal....he came off with his best year....and could have had a better year. He is in his prime, playing every point as hard as he can with passion. Playing Nadal I bet is annoying more than Federer and the others since he gets all these balls back. You need mental patience.....so For Djokovic too pull that off at 6 grand stages is a huge testament to his ability.

Very good post! :)

Rjtennis
12-25-2011, 09:46 AM
Djoko was always the better player technically. Just took him a little while to start dominating Nadal.

Agree. You cant take anything away for Rafa's 2010 season though. He played his defensive style of tennis extremely well and no one could hit through him or play that good of defense until nole came around. Now Nole can hit through Rafa and defend just as well.

Rjtennis
12-25-2011, 09:49 AM
If Djokovic's style is completely the same as it was and it's only his diet that changed, then it means Djokovic always had the talent but never the fitness. Nothing in his game other than his serve has improved in the past couple of years. Djokovic deserves to be regarded as by and far the best player in the world today as his ranking proves.

I think his fh has gotten a bit more consistent and lethal. He is also finishing at the net better than he has is the past. That stuff prob goes back to his fitness and speed though.

TMF
12-25-2011, 09:50 AM
If Novak played Federer or Murray in all the finals Nadal reached and won. It wouldn't be as special....since Murray is a flake sometimes....which would demerit Djokovic achievements. Federer may be playing well but he is a declined version of his prime self.....still better than playing Murray.

At least with Nadal....he came off with his best year....and could have had a better year. He is in his prime, playing every point as hard as he can with passion. Playing Nadal I bet is annoying more than Federer and the others since he gets all these balls back. You need mental patience.....so For Djokovic too pull that off at 6 grand stages is a huge testament to his ability.

Exactly. If it wasn't for Nole, he could have a better year and no one doubt that he was playing better than in 2010. Watch DRII will try to tear you post down with no substance except for ranting.

Hitman
12-25-2011, 10:15 AM
Exactly. If it wasn't for Nole, he could have a better year and no one doubt that he was playing better than in 2010. Watch DRII will try to tear you post down with no substance except for ranting.

This is for sure. Look at how he got through those IW and Miami draws, and that battle in the Miami final. His run on grass to the final was incredible also, as was his run to the US Open final. 2011 was going to be his greatest ever year, and would have if Novak didn't show up to spoil the party.

Semi-Pro
12-25-2011, 11:17 AM
This is for sure. Look at how he got through those IW and Miami draws, and that battle in the Miami final. His run on grass to the final was incredible also, as was his run to the US Open final. 2011 was going to be his greatest ever year, and would have if Novak didn't show up to spoil the party.

No point of even arguing with DRII. All he will result to is his subjective interpretation bantering sessions and completely ignore the data, which is Rafa made 7 finals in a row across 3 different surfaces beating numerous top10 opponents and made 3/4 GS finals, winning 1 of them. Had it not been for Novak it would have been Rafa's greatest season ever

zagor
12-25-2011, 11:24 AM
No point of even arguing with DRII. All he will result to is his subjective interpretation bantering sessions and completely ignore the data, which is Rafa made 7 finals in a row across 3 different surfaces beating numerous top10 opponents and made 3/4 GS finals, winning 1 of them. Had it not been for Novak it would have been Rafa's greatest season ever

Never really looked at it this way, you make a really good point.

Semi-Pro
12-25-2011, 11:28 AM
Never really looked at it this way, you make a really good point.

Me thinks there is a small tint of LOLville within your post:)

Hitman
12-25-2011, 12:48 PM
No point of even arguing with DRII. All he will result to is his subjective interpretation bantering sessions and completely ignore the data, which is Rafa made 7 finals in a row across 3 different surfaces beating numerous top10 opponents and made 3/4 GS finals, winning 1 of them. Had it not been for Novak it would have been Rafa's greatest season ever

Why argue? If the information is there to be used as reference, such as stats, it can be presented in a clear and concise manner. And I think mostly that is what has been shown. The top two played each other in six finals this past season, over all surfaces, with none of them being less than Masters 1000.

DjokovicForTheWin
12-25-2011, 02:26 PM
I feel, therefore I know the facts.

DRII
12-25-2011, 05:11 PM
Agree. You cant take anything away for Rafa's 2010 season though. He played his defensive style of tennis extremely well and no one could hit through him or play that good of defense until nole came around. Now Nole can hit through Rafa and defend just as well.

Nadal's defense this year is nearly as good as last year, except for shorter cross court shots on the run and less accurate passing shots.

It's Nadal's offense that is markedly worse than last year: from a less dangerous serve to a far less effective return, and less penetration off his ground strokes overall!

DRII
12-25-2011, 05:31 PM
Yeah, Djoko was always terrific. Everyone that beat him in 2010 and 2009 and earlier was just a bump in the road until he figured out how great he was. Yeesh, Fedfans have long been delusional but Djoker fans are outdoing them by a long shot now. :roll:

The thing is, we really don't know what species these delusional 'data' dogs are...

Are they really Nole fans? Many were Federer fanatics before 2011. What we do know is that they're all Nadal haters! Most likely they're just using Nole as the current muse if or until he stops winning against Nadal. Federer never fulfilled this fantasy for them!

DRII
12-25-2011, 05:37 PM
No point of even arguing with DRII. All he will result to is his subjective interpretation bantering sessions and completely ignore the data, which is Rafa made 7 finals in a row across 3 different surfaces beating numerous top10 opponents and made 3/4 GS finals, winning 1 of them. Had it not been for Novak it would have been Rafa's greatest season ever

Nothing but Hypocrisy at its worst here...

Sentinel
12-26-2011, 01:13 AM
I feel, therefore I know the facts.
Lawl !
Never really looked at it this way, you make a really good point.
You should read nameless and clarky's posts. They've been trying to point out for several years that Nadal's 2011 was his most magnificent one.

tusharlovesrafa
12-26-2011, 01:49 AM
Lawl !

You should read nameless and clarky's posts. They've been trying to point out for several years that Nadal's 2011 was his most magnificent one.
Namelessone and clarky are long lost brother and sister which share same genetic make up.Few of their charecterstics are as follows:-
1.Very Pessimestic about rafa's chances in any tournament.
2.Secret fed admirers.
3.Wants rafa to be retired as quickly as possible so that they can live their normal life.
3.Namelessone suffers from "LONG MESSAGING SYNDROME" and clarky suffers from "SINGING LIKE MALE"syndrome.
Apparently research is underway to find out more about them.AMEN!

DRII
12-26-2011, 07:06 AM
I definitely find it hard to figure Clarky21 out. At one point I thought she was a Nadal fan who was jaded by his relatively poor 2011 and therefore began to be very hard on Nadal. But given some of her recent posts, I have become completely bewildered of where she stands...

She still provides some good rhetorical whips, however...

DjokovicForTheWin
12-26-2011, 07:49 AM
I definitely find it hard to figure Clarky21 out. At one point I thought she was a Nadal fan who was jaded by his relatively poor 2011 and therefore began to be very hard on Nadal. But given some of her recent posts, I have become completely bewildered of where she stands...

She still provides some good rhetorical whips, however...

You're a rhetorical whip

Sentinel
12-26-2011, 07:56 AM
I think beating an in-form Roger makes Joker's season very special. Who is this Nadal guys anyway to be spoken of in the same sentence as Nole ? It's sad that this era has no one better in the mid-twenties to give Nole any competition.

You're a rhetorical whip
Haha.

Lsmkenpo
12-26-2011, 07:12 PM
Did Nadal's consistency in hitting short to Djokovic's backhand make Novak's season special? Yep.



http://i40.tinypic.com/33kvdqd.jpg




http://i41.tinypic.com/25u4bv9.jpg




http://i40.tinypic.com/2nuhysy.jpg




http://i43.tinypic.com/3354dx2.jpg

Lsmkenpo
12-26-2011, 07:13 PM
http://i40.tinypic.com/igkyo0.jpg



http://i41.tinypic.com/ay69lt.jpg



http://i42.tinypic.com/2cqb503.jpg

This is just a sample from one match.

How many matches does it take for him to realize hitting to Djokovic's back hand may not work like it does against Federer.

It became rather obvious to most after a few 2011 matches, but apparently not to Nadal.

Mike Sams
12-26-2011, 09:28 PM
http://i40.tinypic.com/igkyo0.jpg



http://i41.tinypic.com/ay69lt.jpg



http://i42.tinypic.com/2cqb503.jpg

This is just a sample from one match.

How many matches does it take for him to realize hitting to Djokovic's back hand may not work like it does against Federer.

It became rather obvious to most after a few 2011 matches, but apparently not to Nadal.

I refuse to believe that alone is the problem. Djokovic has perhaps the best court coverage in tennis. If you're saying that Nadal shouldn't hit to Djokovic's backhand then where else should Nadal hit to? Djokovic's forehand? That's not smart either because Djokovic has no problem hitting lasers cross court to Nadal's own backhand repeatedly. And Nadal doesn't love being in that position from what I know.

Lsmkenpo
12-26-2011, 10:10 PM
Have you ever study the Wardlaw Directionals, Nadal makes silly fundamental errors trying to change the direction of the ball with a defensive shot to the BH side for no good reason.

if you are going to change the direction of a rally you better hit an offensive shot or you will find yourself suddenly losing control of the rally and doing nothing but defensive retrieving back and forth across the court as we see in most of these clips. Djokovic doesn't even need to use his retrieving skill when he is allowed to control the rally given a short ball.


A ball dropping a foot inside the service line to Djokovic's backhand is point over. A better play is hitting it deep down the middle or deep back cross court it doesn't matter if it is his forehand, that is the high percentage play.
Nadal wants to play high percentage tennis but hits a lot of shots that go against this fundamental strategy against Djokovic.

Depth of shot is the key to beating Djokovic, if you can't hit consistently deep to force him back he will take control of the rally.

DRII
12-27-2011, 04:20 AM
Yes, you are absolutely right!

As I stated earlier, one difference between this year vs last year for Nadal are his short cross court shots, especially when he's on the run. Nole took supreme advantage of this, using his great backhand down the line.