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West Coast Ace
12-23-2011, 12:15 PM
Did anyone see this on the BBC site?:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jonathanoverend/2011/12/tennis_knock-up.html

Worst idea ever?

And why does everyone think tennis is broken and needs all these 'fixes'? True offseason, two yr rating system, etc. Just because it's not as popular as futbol, American football, NBA basketball? Never was, never will be.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 12:25 PM
I actually agree with this and always have. Even though it's been apart of the game since day dot, well since I've been watching it which isn't really a long time since the early 90's. I've always wondered why they do it apart from the obvious reasons of preventing injury etc or probably more likely to get your hand-eye coordination in sync, but u would think as a professional athelete a private warm up in the gym which is what they do I'm sure pre-match would do the same. Imagine if boxers had a sparring match before they start, I'm sure it doesn't even happen in other racquet sports like table tennis/squash etc. So I also actually agree with this that it shouldn't be apart of the game, I mean they are there to compete and in a way it demeans the competitve aspect of the game. - My two cents.

Devilito
12-23-2011, 12:32 PM
lol how the hell are you guys comparing boxing with tennis. With boxing or any fight sport you can warm up the exact same moves in the locker room before your fight. In tennis you can't practice your serve and forehand and backhand in a locker room. So unless before every single tennis match both players are giving a practice court (which would be impossible) it's a totally stupid and irrelevant analogy

Tony48
12-23-2011, 12:36 PM
Stupid idea is stupid

Devilito
12-23-2011, 12:41 PM
And why does everyone think tennis is broken and needs all these 'fixes'? True offseason, two yr rating system, etc. Just because it's not as popular as futbol, American football, NBA basketball? Never was, never will be.

Because people canít grasp the concept that with individual sports itís not the sport thatís popular, itís the players. Look at boxing. When Tyson was wrecking face everyone was talking about it. Now, nobody cares a lick about the HW belt. Tennis is the same. If tennis isnít as big as it was in the 70s and 80s itís not the sport, itís the players playing it. Which are no longer regular humans with emotions and a personality, but Formula 1 drivers with robotic mannerisms and a sheltered ivory tower lifestyle out of the public eye. How can anybody get attached and interested in people like that?

West Coast Ace
12-23-2011, 12:43 PM
lol how the hell are you guys comparing boxing with tennis. +1. You made me think of this: can you imagine if they brought guys into the ring and let the boxers knock them out? That would be so sick.

@LameTennisPlayer, it's 8 minutes. Are you really that busy? I want the best tennis. And I think the pre-match warmup gives us a better shot of getting it.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 12:50 PM
lol how the hell are you guys comparing boxing with tennis. With boxing or any fight sport you can warm up the exact same moves in the locker room before your fight. In tennis you can't practice your serve and forehand and backhand in a locker room. So unless before every single tennis match both players are giving a practice court (which would be impossible) it's a totally stupid and irrelevant analogy

Do marathon runners run a marathon before a marathon? My point was more along the lines of it demeaning the competitive aspect of the sport by warming up pre match with your opponent, because in my opinion, and it's my opinion a professional athlete should be 100% prepared for a match vs an opponent(s) if there are any.

woodrow1029
12-23-2011, 12:59 PM
The WTA and ATP have actually been talking about this for at least 5 years ago. The reason for it is simple. TV coverage. Back in (I think) 2007, the average time from when the players walked on court, got ready for the warm-up, did the coin toss, had the warm-up, then got ready for the match was over 9 minutes, and the TV networks (not only in USA) complained about it. One of the suggestions was that the umpire would do the coin toss off court while the players were waiting to come on court, and then they come on court, get their racket, and play.

The main argument with that was that it wouldn't be great to do the coin toss off court, because the players should have a chance to see where the sun is and what the wind is like before making their choices.

Another idea was to have a shortened (3 minute warmup).

Another idea was to come on court, do the coin toss, and start the match with no warm-up.

None of them went through though. Instead, we are now instructed to be strict on the 5 minute warm-up time. I don't know if the TV networks have complained lately though.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 01:01 PM
+1. You made me think of this: can you imagine if they brought guys into the ring and let the boxers knock them out? That would be so sick.

@LameTennisPlayer, it's 8 minutes. Are you really that busy? I want the best tennis. And I think the pre-match warmup gives us a better shot of getting it.

Based on what? A warm up? Then how long must it last to optimise both players so that they play at their peak? 5 mins/10 mins? 30 mins? Too many factors here.- Rhetorical question. You have nothing to compare it to because your used to the current situation as it stands. If they came out of the blocks and played after the coin toss, the momentum from the start will be different, which could alter the result of the match. I'm not saying things should change, I like the way things are, but if you look at this point from a different perspective like what hawk-eye has done to the result of matches it'll give you a different point of view.

West Coast Ace
12-23-2011, 01:04 PM
@Woodrow, thanks for the Knowledge. Interesting - you'd think TV would love the opportunity to go to a few commercials. Unless they think people channel surf for 5 minutes knowing they won't miss anything...

Devilito
12-23-2011, 01:05 PM
Based on what? A warm up? Then how long must it last to optimise both players so that they play at their peak? 5 mins/10 mins? 30 mins? Too many factors here.- Rhetorical question. You have nothing to compare it to because your used to the current situation as it stands. If they came out of the blocks and played after the coin toss, the momentum from the start will be different, which could alter the result of the match. I'm not saying things should change, I like the way things are, but if you look at this point from a different perspective like what hawk-eye has done to the result of matches it'll give you a different point of view.

so should the NBA and NHL stop with warm ups before the games as well?

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 01:05 PM
your name must suit your game very well

how original, haven't heard that one before *sigh*

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 01:06 PM
so should the NBA and NHL stop with warm ups before the games as well?

I don't follow them, so it doesn't bother me the slightest.

woodrow1029
12-23-2011, 01:08 PM
@Woodrow, thanks for the Knowledge. Interesting - you'd think TV would love the opportunity to go to a few commercials. Unless they think people channel surf for 5 minutes knowing they won't miss anything...

Well, I agree that they would like the opportunity to go to a few commercials. But I think what they were complaining about is that the average tennis match goes about 2 hours or so, and if they block off 2 or 2 1/2 hours of programming time, and then they lose 10 minutes for the warmup and for players like Nadal taking 3 minutes to turn his water bottles the right way, they either have to cut their TV coverage off early, or run into the next time slot.

Devilito
12-23-2011, 01:23 PM
I don't follow them, so it doesn't bother me the slightest.

but you follow marathon running?

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 01:26 PM
but you follow marathon running?

yeah why my flatmate runs in marathons, does that bother u?
I don't follow the NBA or NHL, because we don't get alot of coverage of it here in Oz, other sports like Cricket/AFL and league/union take priority.

Mike Sams
12-23-2011, 01:30 PM
Did anyone see this on the BBC site?:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jonathanoverend/2011/12/tennis_knock-up.html

Worst idea ever?

And why does everyone think tennis is broken and needs all these 'fixes'? True offseason, two yr rating system, etc. Just because it's not as popular as futbol, American football, NBA basketball? Never was, never will be.

Team sports usually are more player than one to one sports. Would NFL, NBA, football be as popular if it was one guy vs another guy?

TennisMaverick
12-23-2011, 02:27 PM
At pro events, most players either warm-up a couple of hours before, or just before playing, and sometimes both/twice. Also, most tour events have fitness centers in the main stadium, and the players get on the bikes, tredmills, etc. Players do footwork drills in the hallways as well just before being led out to the court.

The real issue with the 5 minute warm-up is rhythm, and anyone who has played knows that you always try to stretch the 5 minute warm-up time to get the best rhythm before play on that particular court. Most of the time, readiness is really dependent upon the player's POV, and mostly due to their own individual psychological/emotion pacing, which is difficult to adjust.

Sometimes, you can send a Lendl type player on-court and have him play easier until he gets his grove to rev it up, and it works well. But if he plays an Agassi/Roddick type personality, he'll feel rushed from jump. Conversely, for strategic reasons, you can send the same player out to play high energy just to take advantage of a slower Lendl type player, and it backfires because it isn't his real rhythm and visa-versa, as it is tough to take an Agassi/Roddick type player and have him pace his in-between time and stroke rhythm to be more methodical.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 02:39 PM
At pro events, most players either warm-up a couple of hours before, or just before playing, and sometimes both/twice. Also, most tour events have fitness centers in the main stadium, and the players get on the bikes, tredmills, etc. Players do footwork drills in the hallways as well just before being led out to the court.

The real issue with the 5 minute warm-up is rhythm, and anyone who has played knows that you always try to stretch the 5 minute warm-up time to get the best rhythm before play on that particular court. Most of the time, readiness is really dependent upon the player's POV, and mostly due to their own individual psychological/emotion pacing, which is difficult to adjust.

Sometimes, you can send a Lendl type player on-court and have him play easier until he gets his grove to rev it up, and it works well. But if he plays an Agassi/Roddick type personality, he'll feel rushed from jump. Conversely, for strategic reasons, you can send the same player out to play high energy just to take advantage of a slower Lendl type player, and it backfires because it isn't his real rhythm and visa-versa, as it is tough to take an Agassi/Roddick type player and have him pace his in-between time and stroke rhythm to be more methodical.

Nice explanation, but where do you stand on whether it's required or not required. Sure it allows players to get a groove or feel etc, but it penalises those who are able to get out of the starting blocks quicker than others. I'm not against hitting the treadmill or lightweights session, to get the blood flowing etc etc it's mandatory to prevent injury. But a pre-match warm up in a sense it's a replica of the actual event itself with the actual opponent you are facing without actual scoring still doesn't sit well with me, never has never will.

And as I mentioned before, how can you optimise both players to play at their peak with if you want to stretch the 5-minutre warm-up time to get the best rhythm, every player is different and 5 mins maybe enough for one person 10 mins for another, 0 mins for someone else.

TennisMaverick
12-23-2011, 02:47 PM
Nice explanation, but where do you stand on whether it's required or not required. Sure it allows players to get a groove or feel etc, but it penalises those who are able to get out of the starting blocks quicker than others. I'm not against hitting the treadmill or lightweights session, to get the blood flowing etc etc it's mandatory to prevent injury. But a pre-match warm up in a sense it's a replica of the actual event itself with the actual opponent you are facing without actual scoring still doesn't sit well with me, never has never will.

I stated my preference in my second paragraph. I actually believe that it should be ten minutes. Every player feels rushed in that 5 minutes. I don't care who you are, unless you are the exception. I've played hundreds of matches and sent players out to play thousands of matches, and no one has ever stated or intimated that they felt that they wanted to play right away, and that the 5 min warm-up was too long. I've even deliberately sent a player on-court, refusing the 5 minute warm-up, and the opponent always flips-out.

Hood_Man
12-23-2011, 03:03 PM
I hope it doesn't go, I just like that it's an extra few minutes of build up before a match, and it adds some time for the commentary team to bring any relevant stats, stories, information etc. Anything that wouldn't seem relevant if the cameras were looking at crowd shots or the empty court.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 03:04 PM
I stated my preference in my second paragraph. I actually believe that it should be ten minutes. Every player feels rushed in that 5 minutes. I don't care who you are, unless you are the exception. I've played hundreds of matches and sent players out to play thousands of matches, and no one has ever stated or intimated that they felt that they wanted to play right away, and that the 5 min warm-up was too long. I've even deliberately sent a player on-court, refusing the 5 minute warm-up, and the opponent always flips-out.

That's fine, if your preference is 10 mins. My preference is 0 mins. I don't see that happening any time soon. It doesn't bother me if it changes or if it doesn't. In my opinion an athlete should be ready to play when the match begins without a pre-match warm up including an opponent they are about to face. It's how it's always been since I've watched it. It'll be interesting to know if this has always been the case.

TennisLovaLova
12-23-2011, 03:13 PM
Nothing in the article says its official. Only murray and macenroe arr pushing for it. And I think it's total stupidity. The players need at least to feel the ball 5/10 minutes to be ready to play. Physically they are ready, but this is tennis, a sport with a lot of complex parameters so the body has to get used to the ball, the court, the crowd, the light, etc.
The feel is important in tennis.

TennisMaverick
12-23-2011, 03:14 PM
That's fine, if your preference is 10 mins. My preference is 0 mins. I don't see that happening any time soon. It doesn't bother me if it changes or if it doesn't. In my opinion an athlete should be ready to play when the match begins without a pre-match warm up including an opponent they are about to face. It's how it's always been since I've watched it. It'll be interesting to know if this has always been the case.

Then you are the exception. Do your opponents get bent when you want to start playing a match before they are ready to play, may I ask?

Poll a 1,000 players and ask them this question, and I will guarantee you, that except for a few juniors, 99 out of 100 players would say that 10 minutes is more reasonable for both who warm-up fast and slow, so dumping the 5 minutes would be welcome buy almost no one.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 03:20 PM
Nothing in the article says its official. Only murray and macenroe arr pushing for it. And I think it's total stupidity. The players need at least to feel the ball 5/10 minutes to be ready to play. Physically they are ready, but this is tennis, a sport with a lot of complex parameters so the body has to get used to the ball, the court, the crowd, the light, etc.
The feel is important in tennis.

OK so in a 2-3hr match you don't think either player would get a feel for the match at some point, without the current pre-match warm up? Of course both will, and at different times or sometimes at the same time, making the pre-match warm up irrelevant.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 03:22 PM
Then you are the exception. Do your opponents get bent when you want to start playing a match before they are ready to play, may I ask?

Poll a 1,000 players and ask them this question, and I will guarantee you, that except for a few juniors, 99 out of 100 players would say that 10 minutes is more reasonable for both who warm-up fast and slow, so dumping the 5 minutes would be welcome buy almost no one.

This isn't personal. I just don't agree with the current format, and I've explained my reasons. I'm entitled to an opinion, I don't expect everyone to follow suit.

ALL IN
12-23-2011, 03:28 PM
Did anyone see this on the BBC site?:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jonathanoverend/2011/12/tennis_knock-up.html

Worst idea ever?

And why does everyone think tennis is broken and needs all these 'fixes'? True offseason, two yr rating system, etc. Just because it's not as popular as futbol, American football, NBA basketball? Never was, never will be.

Tennis is not the same as other sports. The lighting, court surface and conditions vary throughout the day and are most likely very different on a stadium court than the practice court you just warmed up on. This is a very stupid idea. The important first few games of the match would be impacted negatively.

TennisMaverick
12-23-2011, 03:39 PM
This isn't personal. I just don't agree with the current format, and I've explained my reasons. I'm entitled to an opinion, I don't expect everyone to follow suit.

I am not begrudging your opinion, I am just asking why you as a player would not want those 5 minutes or more?

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 03:45 PM
Tennis is not the same as other sports. The lighting, court surface and conditions vary throughout the day and are most likely very different on a stadium court than the practice court you just warmed up on. This is a very stupid idea. The important first few games of the match would be impacted negatively.

Negatively? How so? A champion can win in any conditions. With or without a pre-match warm up. Pancho Gonazales 1 serve/point match is a good example. The business end of the set for me is more important than the first game or two. And which is also why the 7th game of a set is of high importance to win statistically.

ALL IN
12-23-2011, 03:46 PM
I am not begrudging your opinion, I am just asking why you as a player would not want those 5 minutes or more?

Because he has probably not been the (competitive) player as often as he was the spectator.

InspectorRacquet
12-23-2011, 03:50 PM
Tennis is not the same as other sports. The lighting, court surface and conditions vary throughout the day and are most likely very different on a stadium court than the practice court you just warmed up on. This is a very stupid idea. The important first few games of the match would be impacted negatively.

Very true. Even when I warm up with my hitting partner on a different court, I still like even 5 minutes of warm up to adjust to the court I'd be playing on for the next hour or so.

I'm not even that sensitive to many changes in the court or my equipment, but if the professionals notice a slight drop in string tension, it ought to be an enormous difference when they play on a completely different court than the one they warmed up on. In all fairness, tennis should be more tailored to the players, not the viewers.

TennisMaverick
12-23-2011, 03:51 PM
Negatively? How so? A champion can win in any conditions. With or without a pre-match warm up. Pancho Gonazales 1 serve/point match is a good example. The business end of the set for me is more important than the first game or two. And which is also why the 7th game of a set is of high importance to win statistically.

I can recall a match on TV where Agassi had opportunities in his first service game, but got broken, and subsequently lost the match in straights, and in the post-match interview stated, "If I held my first service game, it would have been a different match." That is certainly not an isolated example, as many a match has been won or loss in the first game, and for many reasons.

Russeljones
12-23-2011, 03:52 PM
The only thing they need to look at is enforcing the time allowed between points.

ttbrowne
12-23-2011, 03:55 PM
Love the knock-up.
Consider this:
Boxing: Why not put the boxers in the middle of the ring, arms length away from each other with their fists cocked.
Running: Don't allow the runners to stretch or warm up before a match.
Baseball: No batting practice...nor can pitchers warm up in bullpen
Basketball: No shoot-a-rounds
Football: No practicing before game
See how stupid all of the above sounds. Just as stupid as not having a knock-up.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 03:55 PM
I am not begrudging your opinion, I am just asking why you as a player would not want those 5 minutes or more?

I like to compete quicker. It's just how I am. I don't mind warming up etc, but as soon as the other person is ready to play, then I'll start. With table tennis/pool/squash, whatever it is.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 03:57 PM
Because he has probably not been the (competitive) player as often as he was the spectator.

This assumption is based on what- your style in poker?

TennisMaverick
12-23-2011, 03:57 PM
The only thing they need to look at is enforcing the time allowed between points.

I think that you would find that at least 80-85% of the players find 20 seconds too short. The 30 second rule is more appropriate, but they reduced it for the same reason as lowering the speed limit; there are those who will always drive 10 mph over the limit. So the 20-second rule turns into 30, and the 30-second rule becomes 40 seconds. It's up to the ref, just like the traffic cop, to decide to nail the player/driver for 5-10 sec/mph over the limit.

TennisMaverick
12-23-2011, 04:00 PM
I like to compete quicker. It's just how I am. I don't mind warming up etc, but as soon as the other person is ready to play, then I'll start. With table tennis/pool/squash, whatever it is.

That's cool. So 99% of the time in any sanctioned event, unless the ref is on-court, than all of your tennis matches are going to have a minimum of 5 minutes to warm-up or more, if your opponent pushes the ref and keeps hitting serves.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 04:06 PM
I can recall a match on TV where Agassi had opportunities in his first service game, but got broken, and subsequently lost the match in straights, and in the post-match interview stated, "If I held my first service game, it would have been a different match." That is certainly not an isolated example, as many a match has been won or loss in the first game, and for many reasons.

No doubt. Matches are won or lost by a single point not just a game. 2011 USO Fed vs Djoko semi is a prime example. Are you saying had Agassi had a longer pre-match warm up he would have been more prepared? If that was the case doesn't it prove that pre-match warm ups favour those who take longer to get feel for the game and penalises those who don't?

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 04:13 PM
That's cool. So 99% of the time in any sanctioned event, unless the ref is on-court, than all of your tennis matches are going to have a minimum of 5 minutes to warm-up or more, if your opponent pushes the ref and keeps hitting serves.

and your point is? ....it's then btw

Homeboy Hotel
12-23-2011, 04:20 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--YVyuRwvrso/TX1REDLcxYI/AAAAAAAABFA/QL9VvfQ9L8A/s1600/blogging-demotivational-poster-nothing-to-say.jpg

TennisMaverick
12-23-2011, 04:22 PM
No doubt. Matches are won or lost by a single point not just a game. 2011 USO Fed vs Djoko semi is a prime example. Are you saying had Agassi had a longer pre-match warm up he would have been more prepared? If that was the case doesn't it prove that pre-match warm ups favour those who take longer to get feel for the game and penalises those who don't?

Yep, for sure.

As I mentioned in my first post, if you can get/gotten a guy like Agassi or Roddick to be more thoughtful from jump, many of their results would have been different. Both have lost many a match as they moved quickly from one point to another without assessing and adjusting their tactics. A longer, more methodical warm-up would have allowed him to see what he didn't see in the first game, where he was already racing, which caused him to play from behind the rest of the match, to press, and to rush. If he recognizes what happens while it happens, as he did once he became older and more thoughtful, he most likely would have been correct, having won the first game, he would have changed the complexion of the match, and possibly even its outcome.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 04:27 PM
Love the knock-up.
Consider this:
Boxing: Why not put the boxers in the middle of the ring, arms length away from each other with their fists cocked.
Running: Don't allow the runners to stretch or warm up before a match.
Baseball: No batting practice...nor can pitchers warm up in bullpen
Basketball: No shoot-a-rounds
Football: No practicing before game
See how stupid all of the above sounds. Just as stupid as not having a knock-up.

a knock up is a simulation of the actual event or parts of without actual scoring your comparisons are incorrect so in

boxing-actual boxing without taking score
running-actual running the with all the contenders without noting who came first/second...etc
baseball- simulation of a game without taking score
basketball- same as above
football-same as above

TennisMaverick
12-23-2011, 04:28 PM
and your point is? ....it's then btw

My point is that no matter what you prefer, 99 out of 100 matches that you play, your opponent will force you to hit for a minimum of 5 minutes. Thus, if you do not adjust your mindset, then your emotional arousal levels in the beginning of the match will not be optimal if you become impatient during the warm-up. Any good opponent would recognize any uncomfortableness and use it against you in the match. You certainly have had opponents in sanctioned events mess with your head, I'm sure, as that comes with the territory.

Pwned
12-23-2011, 04:38 PM
LameTennisPlayer: you don't play tennis do you?

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 04:41 PM
Yep, for sure.

As I mentioned in my first post, if you can get/gotten a guy like Agassi or Roddick to be more thoughtful from jump, many of their results would have been different. Both have lost many a match as they moved quickly from one point to another without assessing and adjusting their tactics. A longer, more methodical warm-up would have allowed him to see what he didn't see in the first game, where he was already racing, which caused him to play from behind the rest of the match, to press, and to rush. If he recognizes what happens while it happens, as he did once he became older and more thoughtful, he most likely would have been correct, having won the first game, he would have changed the complexion of the match, and possibly even its outcome.

I don't see how one example can or should apply to everyone.

My point is that no matter what you prefer, 99 out of 100 matches that you play, your opponent will force you to hit for a minimum of 5 minutes. Thus, if you do not adjust your mindset, then your emotional arousal levels in the beginning of the match will not be optimal if you become impatient during the warm-up. Any good opponent would recognize any uncomfortableness and use it against you in the match. You certainly have had opponents in sanctioned events mess with your head, I'm sure, as that comes with the territory.

Well, your right on this. It doesn't bother me prior to play that the pre-match warm up exists it's because I expect it, and play it through. It's more the time in between points that vary, and I don't think I'll be alone on this one.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 04:45 PM
LameTennisPlayer: you don't play tennis do you?

Do you always do what you are told, and never challenge anything? Doesn't sound like you win much.

Mustard
12-23-2011, 04:48 PM
The warm-ups must remain.

TennisMaverick
12-23-2011, 04:52 PM
I don't see how one example can or should apply to everyone.

That's just one example. as I previously mentioned, it happens frequently for many reasons.

Are you actually saying that you have never been in a match where what happened in the first three games did not totally affect the outcome of the match? IMPO, that is impossible unless you got waxed every sanctioned match.

Well, your right on this. It doesn't bother me prior to play that the pre-match warm up exists it's because I expect it, and play it through. It's more the time in between points that vary, and I don't think I'll be alone on this one.

And then, I am sure that you've experienced irritation many-a-time from opponents who will then make you wait on every point until they emotionally get the upper hand, whether you speak-up or counter-act. When that happens, do you go to an umpire, ref, or do you go to the hookfest?

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 05:03 PM
That's just one example. as I previously mentioned, it happens frequently for many reasons.

Are you actually saying that you have never been in a match where what happened in the first three games did not totally affect the outcome of the match? IMPO, that is impossible unless you got waxed every sanctioned match.



And then, I am sure that you've experienced irritation many-a-time from opponents who will then make you wait on every point until they emotionally get the upper hand, whether you speak-up or counter-act. When that happens, do you go to an umpire, ref, or do you go to the hookfest?

Par 1- That's not what I meant. Of course I have. Your emphasis was more on analysis, taking a step back and re-thinking what didn't work and what will etc. I was saying that this doesn't apply to everyone in all cases. Even that method is prone to analysis paralysis.

Par 2- Yes I have, I've learnt to play through it. And forget that I have to wait, works better for me, but not always.

West Coast Ace
12-23-2011, 05:08 PM
The only thing they need to look at is enforcing the time allowed between points.And tell a certain left hander to eat his energy bar before he comes out - don't make the opponent and ump wait at the net for 2 minutes.

TennisMaverick
12-23-2011, 05:10 PM
I was saying that this doesn't apply to everyone in all cases. Even that method is prone to analysis paralysis.

Not at the competitive level.

Yes I have, I've learnt to play through it. And forget that I have to wait, works better for me, but not always.

Rising above it? Cool. I would be forced to react, and I would force any of my players to do so as well. More power to ya!

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 05:19 PM
Not at the competitive level.



Really??!
So you've never seen a match where a professional athlete choked?

TennisMaverick
12-23-2011, 05:22 PM
Really??!
So you've never seen a match where a professional athlete choked?

Paralysis through analysis is obviously very different from choking....and this is where the conversation ends.

Have a Happy Holiday!

Bobby Jr
12-23-2011, 05:23 PM
Do marathon runners run a marathon before a marathon?
No, but they sure as hell do a comprehensive warm-up.

The whole tennis warm-up thing takes 5 mins basically - usually not even long enough for spectators to get to their seats. They alternative, no warm-up, would see players stopping again and again even more than now while people walk around looking for their seats.

The warm-up builds heightens the anticipation and tension of the match from my experiences watching hundreds of live tennis matches over the years. Without it it'd seem weirdly abrupt imp.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 05:24 PM
Paralysis through analysis is obviously very different from choking....and this is where the conversation ends.

Have a Happy Holiday!





It's one and the same.

SportsSee also: Choke (sports) and Nervous nineties
Analysis paralysis is a critical problem in athletics. It can be explained in simple terms as "failure to react in response to over-thought." A victim of sporting analysis paralysis will frequently think in complicated terms of "what to do next" while contemplating the variety of possibilities, and in doing so exhausts the available time in which to act.

Happy Holidays dude!

Ronaldo
12-23-2011, 05:30 PM
Shirley the pre-match warm-up can be changed. Have the players come out and warm-up before the match. Send them back, prepare the pyrotechnic display, get the crowd fired up before the cameras roll and unleash Hell. Only for televised matches though.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 05:32 PM
No, but they sure as hell do a comprehensive warm-up.

The whole tennis warm-up thing takes 5 mins basically - usually not even long enough for spectators to get to their seats. They alternative, no warm-up, would see players stopping again and again even more than now while people walk around looking for their seats.

The warm-up builds heightens the anticipation and tension of the match from my experiences watching hundreds of live tennis matches over the years. Without it it'd seem weirdly abrupt imp.

They sure do leading up to the event, but on the actual day probably a light jog 10-15 mins.

I'd like to know from a tennis historian if the pre-match warmup ritual was always apart of the game, pre-tv of course.

MichaelNadal
12-23-2011, 05:39 PM
The warm-ups must remain.

Tennis would feel so weird if they immediately got on court and just started playing.

Bobby Jr
12-23-2011, 05:41 PM
They sure do leading up to the event, but on the actual day probably a light jog 10-15 mins.

I'd like to know from a tennis historian if the pre-match warmup ritual was always apart of the game, pre-tv of course.
So, what you're saying now is your post querying whether marathon runners do a marathon to warm up before a marathon was a pointless comparison?

A 15 minute job as a ratio of say a 2.5 hr marathon is 1/10th of the event length.

Now, show me how many professional tennis matches are over in less than 50 minutes, which is 10 times the warm-up length.

I imagine a few of the big the reasons the on-court warm-up remains in tennis are as I said in my previous post above.

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 05:57 PM
So, what you're saying now is your post querying whether marathon runners do a marathon to warm up before a marathon was a pointless comparison?

A 15 minute job as a ratio of say a 2.5 hr marathon is 1/10th of the event length.

Now, show me how many professional tennis matches are over in less than 50 minutes, which is 10 times the warm-up length.

I imagine a few of the big the reasons the on-court warm-up remains in tennis are as I said in my previous post above.

No, because look at my statement properly. I said 'Do marathon runners run a marathon before a marathon'. Not running itself, as running could be classified as short(sprint) or long distance, both requiring different warm-up procedures.

The tennis knock up is different, every aspect of the game is utilised or part of, eg serving, returning, groundstrokes, volleying, lob etc; which is a simulation of the actual event without point scoring. You cannot simulate a marathon, without actually running a marathon was my point.

Pwned
12-23-2011, 05:58 PM
So, what you're saying now is your post querying whether marathon runners do a marathon to warm up before a marathon was a pointless comparison?

A 15 minute job as a ratio of say a 2.5 hr marathon is 1/10th of the event length.

Now, show me how many professional tennis matches are over in less than 50 minutes, which is 10 times the warm-up length.

I imagine a few of the big the reasons the on-court warm-up remains in tennis are as I said in my previous post above.
Exactly. End thread.

If TV stations are so against it then have the match 'start' 10 minutes prior to when TV coverage begins. That way once coverage starts the warmup is over. Not that it matters as those who are watching tennis aren't going to care about a 5 minute warm up.

Pwned
12-23-2011, 05:59 PM
No, because look at my statement properly. I said 'Do marathon runners run a marathon before a marathon'. Not running itself, as running could be classified as short(sprint) or long distance, both requiring different warm-up procedures.

The tennis knock up is different, every aspect of the game is utilised or part of, eg serving, returning, groundstrokes, volleying, lob etc; which is a simulation of the actual event without point scoring. You cannot simulate a marathon, without actually running a marathon was my point.

Same with a tennis match, the knock up is a simulation of the actual event.O_o wow.....

LameTennisPlayer
12-23-2011, 06:04 PM
Exactly. End thread.

If TV stations are so against it then have the match 'start' 10 minutes prior to when TV coverage begins. That way once coverage starts the warmup is over. Not that it matters as those who are watching tennis aren't going to care about a 5 minute warm up.

tennis was around a long time before tv was invented....true strory bro

adamX012
12-23-2011, 06:07 PM
warm-up exercises is extremely important to all sports..... Sport injuries have a lot of the complications in the future.......

Pwned
12-23-2011, 06:10 PM
tennis was around a long time before tv was invented....true strory bro

You've given no good reason as to why there should be no warmup. You clearly do not play tennis.

Ronaldo
12-23-2011, 06:16 PM
Exactly. End thread.

If TV stations are so against it then have the match 'start' 10 minutes prior to when TV coverage begins. That way once coverage starts the warmup is over. Not that it matters as those who are watching tennis aren't going to care about a 5 minute warm up.

That is it. The players warmed up earlier in the day anyway. How many players here only warm up for five minutes?

West Coast Ace
12-23-2011, 06:39 PM
If TV stations are so against it then have the match 'start' 10 minutes prior to when TV coverage begins.Good solution. And sports need to stop rolling over for every TV suggestion. Sure, I know 'they pay the bills' (well, a good chunk) but they need Content. Enough's enough. They already have too much say in when certain players' matches are.

You've given no good reason as to why there should be no warmup. You clearly do not play tennis.I believe you are right. Someone who plays would know this is a terrible idea.

kishnabe
12-23-2011, 06:46 PM
Warm up sort gives of this atmosphere of building up to something special or interesting.

It also allows the Audience to have some time to get seated for the match.

Some matches are over in an hour.....extra 7 min of watching their favourite player his rally strokes wouldn't be so bad.

Ronaldo
12-23-2011, 07:02 PM
Great to watch the warm-up online, no commercials.