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View Full Version : Does Federer have weak mental strength in the slams?


Homeboy Hotel
12-25-2011, 08:41 AM
It depends how you interpret it, whether the opponent just simply played better or whether it was on Federer's side why he has lost so many slam matches as of late.

For instance, (earlier examples) Wimbledon 2008/Australian Open 2009/US Open 2009 -
Was it simply Nadal/Del Potro played MUCH better in the final set?
Or did weak mental strength in 5 set finals for Federer just cause more errors/poor serving etc...?
Another blatant example would be the match points USO 2010 vs Djokovic.


Every slam in 2011 for example highlights his fragility:
Australian Open 2011 =
- R2 Simon: Federer 2 sets up but pushed to five. Federer had 3 match points at 0-40 2-5 on Simon's serve but could only covert at deuce on his own serve at 5-3.
-SF Djokovic: Federer was ahead in sets so many times but silly drop shots at the wrong time make him loose in straight.

Roland Garros 2011 =
- SF Djokovic: Federer 2 sets up but silly gifts gave Djokovic chance to serve for 4th set for 2 sets all. Could not convert any match points on **** serve in the TB at 6-3, only an ace got it at 6-5. If it pushed to five, his luck, he'd probably loose that too and Djokovic would've won every slam in 2011.

Wimbledon 2011 =
- QF Tsonga: No explanation necessary. Shock loss, complete loss of concentration from two sets up.

US Open 2011 =
- SF Djokovic: Again deja vu, no need to even say. Two sets up, and if thats not enough, two match points in fifth set.


Will this underlying mentality problem continue? Will be be, eventually, the mental aspect that makes him give up the game more than the physical?

kishnabe
12-25-2011, 08:48 AM
16 slams equal weak mental strength for sure.

Sentinel
12-25-2011, 08:58 AM
Can't disagree with the OP. Just imagine if Roger had some mental strength, how many slams he would have !

OTOH, someone else I know gets bageled by a 30+ yr old when he runs out of "mental strength". :D

tennis_pro
12-25-2011, 08:59 AM
It depends how you interpret it, whether the opponent just simply played better or whether it was on Federer's side why he has lost so many slam matches as of late.

For instance, (earlier examples) Wimbledon 2008/Australian Open 2009/US Open 2009 -
Was it simply Nadal/Del Potro played MUCH better in the final set?
Or did weak mental strength in 5 set finals for Federer just cause more errors/poor serving etc...?
Another blatant example would be the match points USO 2010 vs Djokovic.


Every slam in 2011 for example highlights his fragility:
Australian Open 2011 =
- R2 Simon: Federer 2 sets up but pushed to five. Federer had 3 match points at 0-40 2-5 on Simon's serve but could only covert at deuce on his own serve at 5-3.
-SF Djokovic: Federer was ahead in sets so many times but silly drop shots at the wrong time make him loose in straight.

Roland Garros 2011 =
- SF Djokovic: Federer 2 sets up but silly gifts gave Djokovic chance to serve for 4th set for 2 sets all. Could not convert any match points on **** serve in the TB at 6-3, only an ace got it at 6-5. If it pushed to five, his luck, he'd probably loose that too and Djokovic would've won every slam in 2011.

Wimbledon 2011 =
- QF Tsonga: No explanation necessary. Shock loss, complete loss of concentration from two sets up.

US Open 2011 =
- SF Djokovic: Again deja vu, no need to even say. Two sets up, and if thats not enough, two match points in fifth set.


Will this underlying mentality problem continue? Will be be, eventually, the mental aspect that makes him give up the game more than the physical?

My eyes!!!!!

RyKnocks
12-25-2011, 09:04 AM
Where do people come up with this stuff? You're questioning whether the guy who's arguably the greatest tennis player of all time has weak mental strength.

16 slams should be more than enough proof that he has the mental capacity and strength to get through them. If you compete in as many championship matches as he has, you're bound to get a few losses in every variety.

Homeboy Hotel
12-25-2011, 09:08 AM
Does no one read?

AS OF LATE

Homeboy Hotel
12-25-2011, 09:12 AM
16 slams should be more than enough proof that he has the mental capacity and strength to get through them. If you compete in as many championship matches as he has, you're bound to get a few losses in every variety.

I know RF is the greatest player of all time.

But maybe we'd be sitting here and instead of talking about the number 16, we could possibly be talking about 19, 20, 22 even.

And to that, obviously you'll get a few losses, but it becomes more than 'just a loss' when it becomes obvious in 4-5 back to back slams in that specific fashion.

ttbrowne
12-25-2011, 09:19 AM
I would say that;
A) Fed has a lot more things on his mind other than tennis.
B) He's lost a step or two due to age.
C) Players are feeling more comfortable playing him.

I'd say for his age, he's doing alright.

GOAT BAAH!!!
12-25-2011, 09:28 AM
All trolling aside, I don't feel like he is physically prepared for the long haul and this affects his mentality down the stretch.

He almost HAS TO finish it in straights or 4 sets at most these days.

Sentinel
12-25-2011, 10:25 AM
My eyes!!!!!
I was beginning to think they spell "lose" as "loose" in America, just like "there" for "their", "of" for "have" etc.:)

cjj14u
12-25-2011, 10:26 AM
Have always felt that in tight matches he can tend to get mentally "down"....

and I am a big RF supporter....

kishnabe
12-25-2011, 10:34 AM
Does no one read?

AS OF LATE

Yes we call all see that.... but his mental strength is awesome. He got through some matches where he shouldn't have won....and some them when he could have won....he mentally flaked. His 16 slams had many mental tolls on his brain and body....so you can't trully say he is weak.

However the matches you put out says he is mentally weak....maybe he is but who is mentally strong all the time. Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Federer, every great and good player has some days that they are pathetic.

Though Federer sucess at slams and the numerous times he has come on top would deny him of being mentally weak.....even at his old age.

There are times he is mentally weak.....but he goes through them....it would be stupid to call Federer, Djokovic and Nadal mentally weak. Since they all went through tought mental pressure to win a slam even if they are mentally weak maybe once in those two weeks.


Murray is superbly mentally weak in the high end of the slams. No one would have dissagreed with you there.

Rjtennis
12-25-2011, 10:35 AM
16 slams equal weak mental strength for sure.

Exactly. He has more gs titles than anyone, but he is weak mentally. Just because Fed doesnt grind every point like Nadal doesnt mean he is mentally week. It takes a lot of mental strength and confidence to go for your shot. Fed is very tough mentally. And "as of late" he is 30 years old and near the end of his carreer. It is amazing that he is still able to sustain his level of play and motivation to win after all these years.

helloworld
12-25-2011, 10:47 AM
Federer losing while being 2 sets up twice this year really made people question his mental strength. It is extremely rare to lose a match when up 2-0 sets, but Federer did it twice in a row. I don't recall any past great champion losing a match when up 2 sets. This incident really put a question mark on Federer's mental strength in big matches.

Logan71
12-25-2011, 10:53 AM
I would only generally say Wim08 & Ao09 because of their significance to the rivalry with Nadal and he was still at his best then more or less.

They got close and he got tight.Wimbledon because he came out totally tight he could have won that match in 4 still IMO.

Aussie the 5 th set meltdown with his serving and the total emotional breakdown.The latest stream of losses are more to do with miles on the clock.

Mental chinks yes , but lack of strength no way.

Here is a question is Nadal mentally weak after losing 6 times to Novak?

Is Novak now mentally stronger than anyone after being Federer & Nadal's pony?

TMF
12-25-2011, 10:56 AM
Federer losing while being 2 sets up twice this year really made people question his mental strength. It is extremely rare to lose a match when up 2-0 sets, but Federer did it twice in a row. I don't recall any past great champion losing a match when up 2 sets. This incident really put a question mark on Federer's mental strength in big matches.

Lendl beat Mac in 1984 FO final. Mac mental strength must be very low that year. (roll eyes)

Since you don't watch tennis, it's best for you not to post but read/learn from the rest of us.

helloworld
12-25-2011, 11:00 AM
Lendl beat Mac in 1984 FO final. Mac mental strength must be very low that year. (roll eyes)

Since you don't watch tennis, it's best for you not to post but read/learn from the rest of us.

McEnroe losing to Lendl on clay is not a surprise. Losing to nobodies like Tsonga or Berdych on your favourite surface though, IS an embarrassment. :oops:

helloworld
12-25-2011, 11:05 AM
Only Federer can be up 2 sets to love, and still managed to lose twice in a row in a MAJOR. That's quite an accomplishment... :lol:

urban
12-25-2011, 11:05 AM
I think, in the last year ,it was more a stamina than mental question. One could notice, that he weakened in the later rounds of major tournaments over best of five sets. Federer has to close out his matches fast, otherwise it can get tough. Even against Tsonga in London, he looked pretty tired at the end of the 3rd set. That said, his five set record and crunch ability to bite on his teeth is certainly below other greats like Borg, Sampras, Gonzalez, Laver or Nadal.

sportsfan1
12-25-2011, 11:23 AM
OP, good points and facts in the details, I will submit though that 'as of late' should have been worked into the title - most folks around here are in too much of a hurry, perhaps justifiably :neutral:. I really wish they would let us edit titles (even if only just to add text, but not remove).
Yeah, Fed's funks in slams of late have been mind boggling. Whether it's age/tiredness lack of focus/disinterest, an argument in the morning with the missus Mirka :-), or whatever, he's been unable to close out games as well as in the past when at 4-4 you knew a break followed by a solid hold was coming up.
Since the reasons are not entirely clear, IMPO, from watching the recent USO SF, it's just that his BH was good to start a 5 set match, but lacked pace and depth at the other end, allowing the Djoker to really tee off on it. Perhaps serve has had similar woes, but I don't have the stats.

tennis_pro
12-25-2011, 11:37 AM
McEnroe losing to Lendl on clay is not a surprise. Losing to nobodies like Tsonga or Berdych on your favourite surface though, IS an embarrassment. :oops:

A 30-year old Federer who has declined a lot (mostly on grass) in the last 5 years losing to a top 10 player at Wimbledon in 5 sets ISN'T an "embarrassment"

tennis_pro
12-25-2011, 11:42 AM
Only Federer can be up 2 sets to love, and still managed to lose twice in a row in a MAJOR. That's quite an accomplishment... :lol:

So you critisize Federer for squandering 2 match points against Djokovic but at the same time you praise Nadal for "toughing out" a set against the very same player

which pretty much means winning 1 set > winning 2 sets

Rattler
12-25-2011, 11:48 AM
Yeah, the all-time slam holder is mentally weak at the majors. (comment dripping with sarcasim)

kishnabe
12-25-2011, 12:06 PM
McEnroe losing to Lendl on clay is not a surprise. Losing to nobodies like Tsonga or Berdych on your favourite surface though, IS an embarrassment. :oops:

Tsonga is a nobody...lol...you are a nobody. I would consider Mayer a nobody....and Nadal losing to him....is an embaressment. Though it was indoor courts so Nadal can get away with that,.

Tsonga was coming in to great form by reaching the Queens final and almost beating Murray up. He also played real well in RG....just choked against Wawa.

Tsonga serving well...is problem for everyone....like Nadal in AO08, and Djokovic AO10, and likewise Federer WB11. Tsonga played his second best match of his life to take it away from Federer. Still Tsonga is a top tenner, and has been in 08 too. He also has Paris Indoors title....he is a great player and he can trouble all of the top 4 but not consitently. It just so happened he was in the mood to toppled Federer. Even Federer said he couldn't do anthing set 3,4,5....just all the vicious power and placement of the serve was impossible to return.

Berdych is a great player too....twice in a row top tenner....Berdych playing the tournament of his life....and Federer almost made him go to a 5th.


It not like Federer lost to some chumps....at least it wasn't Falla in the first round. The top players...the difference is marginal! Federer losing to top quality players like Tsonga, Berdych, Soderling, Monfils, Nadal, DJokovic and etc isn't suprising.


What is suprising is that Federer survived some bouts in his prime that he most likely could have lost.

gregor.b
12-25-2011, 12:18 PM
Only Federer can be up 2 sets to love, and still managed to lose twice in a row in a MAJOR. That's quite an accomplishment... :lol:

Maybe even what,22 semi's in Majors and 24 or so quarters. Yeah,real weak.

zagor
12-25-2011, 12:18 PM
Federer losing while being 2 sets up twice this year really made people question his mental strength. It is extremely rare to lose a match when up 2-0 sets, but Federer did it twice in a row. I don't recall any past great champion losing a match when up 2 sets. This incident really put a question mark on Federer's mental strength in big matches.

McEnroe losing to Lendl on clay is not a surprise. Losing to nobodies like Tsonga or Berdych on your favourite surface though, IS an embarrassment. :oops:

Like for example when Sampras lost to Corretja when he was two sets up on grass, yes?

TennisLovaLova
12-25-2011, 12:23 PM
Federer is still writing his legend.
I'm conviced last year's losses will help him regain mental freshness and toughness for next season, especially in slams.
We've all witnessed what happened this year at ao, uso and wimbledon. Maybe it was almost the same thing that happened in rg final against rafa: federer had all those matches in his racquet, but he threw them away because he choked or made bad tactical choices at the wrong moment.
He learned his lesson as we saw how he crushed his opponents in wtf.
This has also to be linked with anacone's input into federer's game plans: shorten the exchanges, be more agressive, low risk fh shot selection, consistant topspin bh, etc.
The whole mental/tactical package for the 2012 federer is gonna make the difference and he WILL win all slams and the olympics next year.

stringertom
12-25-2011, 01:52 PM
Don't blame five-set losses solely on age/stamina...'03DC vs Hewitt, '05AO SF, '05YEC vs Nalby. I love Fed's game as much as any but he just doesn't close as well as he could. His BP conversion %age is often mediocre. I'm hoping the more he gels with P'Cone, the more this Achilles' heel will be addressed. There's no denying he is an awesome frontrunner...in his 9 HC major final wins he is a ridiculous 27-3 victor in sets. '09's two finals losses in five were a bit counter-balanced by the Wimby win vs Roddick and his FO SF five-setter vs JMDP. So, he can win the close ones but needs it to happen more often and more consistently. That's if he can be pushed that far.

DeShaun
12-25-2011, 04:00 PM
When I began watching tennis again in 2005, I noticed that this guy Federer, whom everybody was touting, possessed a very special game technically, but he also harbored a type of mental quirk, it seemed. Again, the technical side of his game, then, was clearly much further developed than anyone else's, but (or, "and so," however you look at it) he seemed to play some (if indeed "not many") of his matches by stepping on the accelerator until he was fairly pummeling his opponent, and then easing up to see if/how the opponent would respond.

Only in the past year have I noticed Federer no longer playing cat and mouse with anyone any longer, since guys like Berdych and Tsonga for example have enough game to withstand long stretches of being on the receiving end of Roger's very best; but they are able to pick themselves up off of the canvas, dust themselves off, and start hurting Roger right back with match-ending consequences.

Bobby Jr
12-25-2011, 04:22 PM
I don't recall any past great champion losing a match when up 2 sets. This incident really put a question mark on Federer's mental strength in big matches.
Federer has lost two matches in his entire career when being up 2 sets to love...

Before his loss to Tsonga he was 178 - 0 when up two sets to love in a best of five match.

If you think these losses put a question mark on his mental strength then you obviously haven't watched (or remembered watching) much tennis.

stringertom
12-25-2011, 04:54 PM
Federer has lost two matches in his entire career when being up 2 sets to love...

Before his loss to Tsonga he was 178 - 0 when up two sets to love in a best of five match.

If you think these losses put a question mark on his mental strength then you obviously haven't watched (or remembered watching) much tennis.

Your statement is correct concerning major 5-set matches but he did lose two-set leads to both Hewitt in DC'03 and Nalby in YEC'05.

pame
12-25-2011, 08:51 PM
Only Federer can be up 2 sets to love, and still managed to lose twice in a row in a MAJOR. That's quite an accomplishment... :lol:

This of course, following a lame streak of over 100 matches I believe, where he had gone without ever losing when he was 2 sets up.

adamX012
12-25-2011, 08:53 PM
NO, OP. Federer is aging.. That's the answer. Nothing to do with his mental strength. The fact is his mental strength is pretty strong. He is my hero, oh yes.

pame
12-25-2011, 08:53 PM
Your statement is correct concerning major 5-set matches but he did lose two-set leads to both Hewitt in DC'03 and Nalby in YEC'05.

Fed has openly admitted that in 03 he simply didn't have the physical strength to stay with Hewitt, that he ran out of gas Though I still think he should have won the 05 YEC, bad ankle notwithstanding

SoBad
12-25-2011, 09:01 PM
I can see the weak mental strength as one of the potential problematic issues of concern, but the talentless lacking absence of talent probably plays a greater overall role when it comes to the big picture in the greater scheme of things.

dudeski
12-25-2011, 10:18 PM
I can see the weak mental strength as one of the potential problematic issues of concern, but the talentless lacking absence of talent probably plays a greater overall role when it comes to the big picture in the greater scheme of things.

The thread is about Federer and not about Nadal. You seemed to be confused.

merlinpinpin
12-26-2011, 12:11 AM
Delete, double post

merlinpinpin
12-26-2011, 12:13 AM
Like for example when Sampras lost to Corretja when he was two sets up on grass, yes?

Zagor, please. helloworld was talking about past *greats*, why do you have to bring Sampras into the discussion? :roll:

And it's not like Sampras was worth anything on grass to begin with, anyway, so him losing to Corretja on this surface and in front of an American crowd isn't an embarrassment, obviously. Or is it? :lol:

sbengte
12-26-2011, 12:31 AM
OP, you also need to consider the fact that some of Fed's inexplicable losses at slams in the past 2 years or so may have had to do with a physical injury or fitness issue of some form. The popular myth goes that Federer does not get injured ever, but in reality I am sure he does get injuries and fitness issues like any other player on tour. Just that he does not disclose his injuries to the media with the regularity that some of the other players do. Or even if he does mention it once in a while, the media does not play it up like it does all the time for some of his rivals. So everyone tries to find alternate reasons for his losses like age , natural decline , lack of mental strength etc.

Federer has a chronic back problem and some of his losses like AO 2009 and USO 2009 where he served very poorly, it is said he had some back issues that affected his serve. Similarly, at Wimbledon 2010 against Berdych, he clearly had a thigh injury which he carried from the Halle final against Hewitt.
He played with a bandage in some of his earlier matches and was almost knocked out by Falla in the first round. He spoke about the injury in his post match presser too after the loss to Berdych.

He withdrew from Halle this year citing a groin injury he sustained at the French open (during the semifinal against Nole or before, I don't remember). While there is no denying that Tsonga was too good at Wimbledon this year, it is quite possible that Federer was still carrying that groin injury which might have resulted in his defensive play and letting Tsonga completely dictate play while he did nothing about it.

As Federer has spent over a decade now on tour and is past 30, all that mileage must be showing on his body in some form. I think he does have more physical issues now (for the past 2-3 years) and takes longer to recover from them than when he was younger and in his prime.

While I am not saying that Fed lost all of these matches because of the various injuries, I think it is a fair possibility that when you are playing with an injury and not 100%, it affects your confidence and mindset going into the match knowing that you are going in with a disadvantage. This can put extra pressure and make you tight at crucial moments. And because Fed is not very open and even has a tendency to downplay his health and fitness issues while talking to the media, fans never really know what is really going on.

Prime Fed was good enough to win with amazing consistency at slams, irrespective of anything. But obviously things are not so anymore. After losing some close matches and having a relatively poor slam showing in 2010 losing to Soderling and Berdych breaking his semifinal streak, I think his confidence did get hit and he now doubts himself more at big moments. For eg . I would agree that his losses to Nole at the AO and USO had to do with his confidence (as also with Nole outplaying him).

msc886
12-26-2011, 01:08 AM
It looks more like physical fitness. He just simply looks flat in the latter stages in recent years and it's getting worse. Maybe taking a leaf out of Agassi's book would benefit him as Agassi in his early 30's had great emphasis on his fitness.

Wangtang1
12-26-2011, 01:25 AM
I think for AO, even with the second set, you just have to say Djokovic was a lot better. I wasn't annoyed by Federer choking, he was just outplayed.

Also, I think FO2011 against Djokovic was a sign of mental strength since he broke back when Djokovic was serving for the 4th. IMO, winning the match in 3 or 4 sets makes him immune to any mental criticisms to do with that match.

vernonbc
12-26-2011, 04:50 AM
It's a good thing Fed fans don't make excuses for his losses like they always accuse others of doing. :roll:

C'mon, he's playing against some very very good tennis players. The matches aren't always on his racquet. Give his opponents some credit for playing winning tennis against him.

pame
12-26-2011, 05:27 AM
It's a good thing Fed fans don't make excuses for his losses like they always accuse others of doing. [/B] :roll:

C'mon, he's playing against some very very good tennis players. The matches aren't always on his racquet. Give his opponents some credit for playing winning tennis against him.

We've had fine exemplars from which to learn, esp since around 2005 :roll:

Sentinel
12-26-2011, 05:40 AM
It's a good thing Fed fans don't make excuses for his losses like they always accuse others of doing. :roll:

C'mon, he's playing against some very very good tennis players. The matches aren't always on his racquet. Give his opponents some credit for playing winning tennis against him.
Complete credit to Nole for straight setting him at AO. However, when Fred has matchpoints, it's hard to say it was on the other chaps racquet. Still, credit to Nole for hanging in there and snatching victory.

Don't think any reasonable fan has discredited Nole. It's the Nadal fans who seem to hate Nole -- at least that's the impression i get.

Here's a current example:
He'll reture from AO and the Grand SLam due to sore throat and a broken nail.Link (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=6191825&postcount=226). (post 226). I know that's hardly a Rafa fan :), but there are plenty of others.

kiki
12-26-2011, 05:54 AM
Federer has forgotten what it is like beating a real champion in a gran slam final.He hasn´t done that since 2007

aphex
12-26-2011, 06:04 AM
Federer losing while being 2 sets up twice this year really made people question his mental strength. It is extremely rare to lose a match when up 2-0 sets, but Federer did it twice in a row. I don't recall any past great champion losing a match when up 2 sets. This incident really put a question mark on Federer's mental strength in big matches.

Really? How embarrassing:oops::oops::oops:

TennisLovaLova
12-26-2011, 06:38 AM
Federer has forgotten what it is like beating a real champion in a gran slam final.He hasn´t done that since 2007

What is a real champion then?
Unleash your troll flow please! :-)

Povl Carstensen
12-26-2011, 06:39 AM
McEnroe losing to Lendl on clay is not a surprise. Losing to nobodies like Tsonga or Berdych on your favourite surface though, IS an embarrassment. :oops: Yes, nobodies like Tsonga and Berdych, he he... Federer has an ongoing streak of is it 30 consecutive GS quarterfinals, that is quite good mental strength in my book...
(btw does anyone have the stats on the second longest quarter final or better streak?)

kiki
12-26-2011, 06:40 AM
What is a real champion then?
Unleash your troll flow please! :-)

You should know by now.Tell me the results of his finals against Nadal and Djokovic.I will recognize my mistake if you can prove that, from 2008 on, he has beaten any of those 2 in a major final (Slam final)

mandy01
12-26-2011, 07:43 AM
You should know by now.Tell me the results of his finals against Nadal and Djokovic.I will recognize my mistake if you can prove that, from 2008 on, he has beaten any of those 2 in a major final (Slam final)He hasn't played Djokovic in a major final since 2007 of course he couldn't have beaten him there. Go get a clue.

heftylefty
12-26-2011, 10:03 AM
What I've Learn This Thread:

Any Mental Weakling can win 16 Slams.

kiki
12-26-2011, 11:11 AM
Fed wins at the YEC when Nadal and Djoko are so tired because they, yes, they play all the major finals, or almost all of them

FlashFlare11
12-26-2011, 12:54 PM
It's a good thing Fed fans don't make excuses for his losses like they always accuse others of doing. :roll:

C'mon, he's playing against some very very good tennis players. The matches aren't always on his racquet. Give his opponents some credit for playing winning tennis against him.

The excuses for Federer are few and far between. And, when there is one, it's usually well-documented and known to everyone. Most reasonable fans don't really use them anyway. Many of the Nadal fans here each have their own excuse as to why Rafa lost and they have to collectively agree on one excuse that explains the loss. It also doesn't help when it seems like there's an excuse for every loss.

As for talking about giving credit to opponents, there were six different reasons from many Nadal fans over the past year attempting to explain the losses to Djokovic, none of them including an acceptance that Nole actually played well.

pame
12-26-2011, 01:06 PM
Fed wins at the YEC when Nadal and Djoko are so tired because they, yes, they play all the major finals, or almost all of them

Yikes - and there I was all these years imagining that Fed had won 5 previous YEC"s when he had been playing finals of all the slams most years (and winning them). Guess he racked up those 16 slam titles while not playing the major finals - lol

TennisFan3
12-26-2011, 01:19 PM
What a useless thread.

Fed's one of the most mentally strong players EVER to play the game. You don't win 16 slams and make a gazillion SF/Finals without being mentally strong.

Ask someone who hasn't traditionally rooted for Federer. Right from the time when he beat Pete at Wimbledon in 01, I cannot count the no of matches where I've seen Fed pull off a houdini and win. As much as I hate to admit it, his serve and forehand are every bit as clutch as Sampras even. It's unbelievable how many times he pulled of victories from the brink of defeat just by a big serve and a forehand winner.

The fact that at 30, he's not winning slams indicates nothing at all, because's declining physically which is a large reason for his dips in long matches.
Even so, he is still the only one to beat Djokovic in slams this year. Almost twice. That should tell us something..

TennisLovaLova
12-26-2011, 01:34 PM
We need data on federer's comebacks in matches he was 2 sets down. Is Mustard around?

DeShaun
12-26-2011, 01:55 PM
We need data on federer's comebacks in matches he was 2 sets down. Is Mustard around?
I assume there exists maybe a half-dozen or so instances of Roger falling behind by two sets, which would not make for a very representative sample from which to generalize about his mental strength in my opinion.
Roger does not tend to lose two sets in a row at the start of a match, has typically been a fast starter.

PrinceMoron
12-26-2011, 03:10 PM
Just never learnt to count higher than 17. Murray skipped school and never got past 0.

Fedchamp
12-27-2011, 01:43 AM
What a useless thread.

Fed's one of the most mentally strong players EVER to play the game. You don't win 16 slams and make a gazillion SF/Finals without being mentally strong.

Ask someone who hasn't traditionally rooted for Federer. Right from the time when he beat Pete at Wimbledon in 01, I cannot count the no of matches where I've seen Fed pull off a houdini and win. As much as I hate to admit it, his serve and forehand are every bit as clutch as Sampras even. It's unbelievable how many times he pulled of victories from the brink of defeat just by a big serve and a forehand winner.

The fact that at 30, he's not winning slams indicates nothing at all, because's declining physically which is a large reason for his dips in long matches.
Even so, he is still the only one to beat Djokovic in slams this year. Almost twice. That should tell us something..

I agree, except for season 2011. He's had quite a few matches in his keeping only to lose them. The loss to Djokovic at the US was quite telling. I feel he would've got his slam for 2011 if he won that one.

jackson vile
12-27-2011, 10:46 AM
Maybe he can work as hard as Nadal and Novak on this and get it together for 2012?

kiki
12-28-2011, 02:23 PM
What a useless thread.

Fed's one of the most mentally strong players EVER to play the game. You don't win 16 slams and make a gazillion SF/Finals without being mentally strong.

Ask someone who hasn't traditionally rooted for Federer. Right from the time when he beat Pete at Wimbledon in 01, I cannot count the no of matches where I've seen Fed pull off a houdini and win. As much as I hate to admit it, his serve and forehand are every bit as clutch as Sampras even. It's unbelievable how many times he pulled of victories from the brink of defeat just by a big serve and a forehand winner.

The fact that at 30, he's not winning slams indicates nothing at all, because's declining physically which is a large reason for his dips in long matches.
Even so, he is still the only one to beat Djokovic in slams this year. Almost twice. That should tell us something..

Fed made his record playing menthal midgets.You see, Nadal is not a menthal midget..nor seems to be 2011 Djokovic...so, what can Fed do???

kiki
12-28-2011, 02:24 PM
He hasn't played Djokovic in a major final since 2007 of course he couldn't have beaten him there. Go get a clue.

But Djokovic was there..who missed it, Federer?

fed_rulz
12-28-2011, 02:45 PM
But Djokovic was there..who missed it, Federer?
no, Djokovic

celoft
12-28-2011, 02:48 PM
It depends how you interpret it, whether the opponent just simply played better or whether it was on Federer's side why he has lost so many slam matches as of late.

For instance, (earlier examples) Wimbledon 2008/Australian Open 2009/US Open 2009 -
Was it simply Nadal/Del Potro played MUCH better in the final set?
Or did weak mental strength in 5 set finals for Federer just cause more errors/poor serving etc...?
Another blatant example would be the match points USO 2010 vs Djokovic.


Every slam in 2011 for example highlights his fragility:
Australian Open 2011 =
- R2 Simon: Federer 2 sets up but pushed to five. Federer had 3 match points at 0-40 2-5 on Simon's serve but could only covert at deuce on his own serve at 5-3.
-SF Djokovic: Federer was ahead in sets so many times but silly drop shots at the wrong time make him loose in straight.

Roland Garros 2011 =
- SF Djokovic: Federer 2 sets up but silly gifts gave Djokovic chance to serve for 4th set for 2 sets all. Could not convert any match points on **** serve in the TB at 6-3, only an ace got it at 6-5. If it pushed to five, his luck, he'd probably loose that too and Djokovic would've won every slam in 2011.

Wimbledon 2011 =
- QF Tsonga: No explanation necessary. Shock loss, complete loss of concentration from two sets up.

US Open 2011 =
- SF Djokovic: Again deja vu, no need to even say. Two sets up, and if thats not enough, two match points in fifth set.


Will this underlying mentality problem continue? Will be be, eventually, the mental aspect that makes him give up the game more than the physical?

He is 30.


.................................................. ............................

kiki
12-28-2011, 02:58 PM
no, Djokovic

Truth is top Fed seldom beat topm Nadal, and that nver happen for a nº 1, much less A SELF PROCLAIMED GOAT.

TMF
12-28-2011, 03:04 PM
Truth is top Fed seldom beat topm Nadal, and that nver happen for a nº 1, much less A SELF PROCLAIMED GOAT.

Top Fed owned the tour, not like Laver only owned the amateur.

kiki
12-28-2011, 03:10 PM
Top Fed owned the tour, not like Laver only owned the amateur.

Oh¡ but you didn´t certainly look at Laver´s pro results between 63 and 67.Look closely at his 1967 record.It might be correct to assume 1967 Laver would beat 1969 Laver?

TMF
12-28-2011, 03:13 PM
Oh¡ but you didn´t certainly look at Laver´s pro results between 63 and 67.Look closely at his 1967 record.It might be correct to assume 1967 Laver would beat 1969 Laver?

Competition was weaker in 1969 since some of pro players have declined? At least that's what been said from some of the old-timers.

kiki
12-28-2011, 03:22 PM
Competition was weaker in 1969 since some of pro players have declined? At least that's what been said from some of the old-timers.

I am shitting my pants off laughing...

1969

Roche, playing his best tennis, almost beats Laver at AO and makes him play a 4 th set at FH

Gimeno loses to Laver the AOF... 3 years before winning the FO title

Emerson, I think, is beaten by Laver 2 times in GS action...Emmo just comes out fresh of his 12 GS win...so he was easy to beat?

Rosewall, arguably on of the all time greats on cc has just beaten Laver in 4 sets in 1968 final... just one year later, Laver beats Rosewall in straight sets.Ken had destroyed Okker, 10 years younger, in the Sf

Laver beats in 4 sets top form John Newcombe at the Wimbledon Final.Newc will win 3 W titles, but just gets one set off Laver in 1969...Laver beats Ashe in a 4 set battle in the semis, prior to playing Newcombe.That Laver vs Ashe match is considered a top 5 match in W story

in 1971-72, 34 years old Laver still makes it to the msot prestigious pro event: the WCT finals.In 1971 Rosewall beats him in 4 sets at the finals, one year later, Rosewall wins his last big title beating Laver in the WCT finals final match over 5 sets, in what many will argue is the best match ever played.EVER PLAYED

SLD76
12-28-2011, 03:23 PM
I am shitting my pants off laughing...

1969

Roche, playing his best tennis, almost beats Laver at AO and makes him play a 4 th set at FH

Gimeno loses to Laver the AOF... 3 years before winning the FO title

Emerson, I think, is beaten by Laver 2 times in GS action...Emmo just comes out fresh of his 12 GS win...so he was easy to beat?

Rosewall, arguably on of the all time greats on cc has just beaten Laver in 4 sets in 1968 final... just one year later, Laver beats Rosewall in straight sets.Ken had destroyed Okker, 10 years younger, in the Sf

Laver beats in 4 sets top form John Newcombe at the Wimbledon Final.Newc will win 3 W titles, but just gets one set off Laver in 1969...Laver beats Ashe in a 4 set battle in the semis, prior to playing Newcombe.That Laver vs Ashe match is considered a top 5 match in W story

in 1971-72, 34 years old Laver still makes it to the msot prestigious pro event: the WCT finals.In 1971 Rosewall beats him in 4 sets at the finals, one year later, Rosewall wins his last big title beating Laver in the WCT finals final match over 5 sets, in what many will argue is the best match ever played.EVER PLAYED



16 is mentally tougher than 10.

kiki
12-28-2011, 03:28 PM
16 is mentally tougher than 10.

what 10? can you expalain?

ultradr
12-28-2011, 03:35 PM
One of the factor is his serve, IMHO. I think he has great serve but his
1st serve % sometimes can go down for an extended period, as long as a set
or two. Then he is in trouble.

Another factor is his strategy: he likes to take early lead and kill his opponent's
will to win early. And then finish off his opponent in straight set. It worked 99%
of time during his prime. When something goes wrong, he loses in 5 sets. This
makes his 5 set winning % quite low.

kiki
12-28-2011, 03:38 PM
Truth is that Laver had to beat quite more of big champs than Federer probably never have to...He certainly defeated Nadal in 2 Wimbly finals, which may have been his greatest, along his Wimbledon finals against ARod

FlashFlare11
12-28-2011, 05:51 PM
I'm not going to say Federer is mentally weak in the slams, because he's not.

However, has he lost some mental toughness? Absolutely.

The matches he lost last year where he held match points, along with the USO SF against Djokovic this year, are evidence of this. l just feel like Roger Federer in his prime would have found a way to win those matches. Look, we can argue if Djokovic hit a "lucky shot" or whatever, but Roger should have never been in that position at all. He led 2-0 sets and let it go. He should have shaken off the lost opportunities, and gone for more. At least, that's what I feel Roger in his prime would have done.

The same can be said about the Roland Garros final. After losing set point, Roger basically gave up on the set. He should have been fighting for it, knowing that once you give Nadal a chance to come back, he's going to take it.

These reasons are why I believe Roger's lost some mental toughness. He's still extremely mentally strong, but he can't be counted upon to always come back from the brink or take the chances he's presented with. And, as a Federer fan, it pains me to say that.

Crazy man
12-28-2011, 05:59 PM
Give most top players Federer's mental ability (mental strength, return, which is mental, anticipation and his ability to read the game) and they would be able to win many slams, IMO.


Give somebody like Henman Federer's game and they would still struggle to win slams because he posseses truly laughable mental capabilities, worse than Goran's.



I've stated this to pin point how strong Federer is mentally. I can't think of a player who can play an average match against an on-fire opponent who is ranked very highly yet still come out on top. Federer's mental capablities are 75% of the reason for his slam success. Yeah, he gets days where he throws in the towel mentally and doesn't think, but can we get real just for a minute?

jackson vile
12-30-2011, 08:30 AM
I am shitting my pants off laughing...

1969

Roche, playing his best tennis, almost beats Laver at AO and makes him play a 4 th set at FH

Gimeno loses to Laver the AOF... 3 years before winning the FO title

Emerson, I think, is beaten by Laver 2 times in GS action...Emmo just comes out fresh of his 12 GS win...so he was easy to beat?

Rosewall, arguably on of the all time greats on cc has just beaten Laver in 4 sets in 1968 final... just one year later, Laver beats Rosewall in straight sets.Ken had destroyed Okker, 10 years younger, in the Sf

Laver beats in 4 sets top form John Newcombe at the Wimbledon Final.Newc will win 3 W titles, but just gets one set off Laver in 1969...Laver beats Ashe in a 4 set battle in the semis, prior to playing Newcombe.That Laver vs Ashe match is considered a top 5 match in W story

in 1971-72, 34 years old Laver still makes it to the msot prestigious pro event: the WCT finals.In 1971 Rosewall beats him in 4 sets at the finals, one year later, Rosewall wins his last big title beating Laver in the WCT finals final match over 5 sets, in what many will argue is the best match ever played.EVER PLAYED

That puts somethings into perspective, where was Pancho this whole time?

kiki
01-01-2012, 09:46 AM
That puts somethings into perspective, where was Pancho this whole time?

Past 40.Still won a memorable 5 setter against 18 years old younger Charlie Pasarell, a US Davis Cup man, at Wimbledon the same year klaver took his second GS

jackson vile
01-03-2012, 08:55 AM
Past 40.Still won a memorable 5 setter against 18 years old younger Charlie Pasarell, a US Davis Cup man, at Wimbledon the same year klaver took his second GS

At the age of 40 that is really good, however if you know Pancho's history you can understand how he was able to do it. This guy had super power or something LOL

Sentinel
01-03-2012, 09:19 AM
At the age of 40 that is really good, however if you know Pancho's history you can understand how he was able to do it. This guy had super power or something LOL
So are you saying you understand or not. I am confused !

Don't leave your readers in suspense.

Povl Carstensen
01-03-2012, 01:24 PM
A SELF PROCLAIMED GOAT.Where is the source for that?

cork_screw
01-03-2012, 01:50 PM
The way I see it, when you play and get into as many slams as he does as as far and deep as he gets, you are bound to have a few kinks. He's ususually not down 2 sets to start off, so it's hard to say if he could come back from two sets down. But as many times as he's been up by 2 sets (and it's been a lot) you are bound to have a percentage of them where you actually lose them. Say I stand 20 ft away from a dart board (me not being a dart board expert by any means) if I threw the dart enough I could probably hit the bullsye not only once, but probably be able to tag it a few times in a row if I threw enough based on the greater sum of attempts tried. If you do anything a lot, you will see a wider spread of irregularities that you might not see if you don't have a spread of attempted tries at something.

Federer is very mentally strong, he's pretty battle tested. I don't think losing a few times being up 2 sets is anything to critique him about. I think a bigger argument is someone who hasn't won a slam but has had the chances to do so, ahem Murray, Nalbandian, Roddick (roddick is mentally strong, but just doesn't execute, just wanted to throw him in there too because for me he's a bit of a disappointment when it comes to how many he could have won, I digress).

devila
01-04-2012, 06:30 AM
if fedcarbunkle had lost in the 4th rounds to roddick, fed would choke less often.
then, when everyone gets injured, fed will win 40 slams. fed's loser friends would feel better about their own poor results in the weak 2004-6 years.

helloworld
01-04-2012, 06:53 AM
I still can't get over the fact that he lost when being up 2 sets in a slam twice in a row... Federer's mental capability is certainly being questioned right now.

BeHappy
01-04-2012, 07:27 AM
Ridiculous thread.

I have never ever ever seen Federer choke in any match ever.

devila
01-04-2012, 07:30 AM
yes, but fed would have 5 slams if tsonga, djoker, nadal and
del potro had tanked.

jackson vile
01-07-2012, 09:23 AM
That is a serious list. It just seems that if things do not go 100% to plan of if the other player does not give up he mentally caves?

It depends how you interpret it, whether the opponent just simply played better or whether it was on Federer's side why he has lost so many slam matches as of late.

For instance, (earlier examples) Wimbledon 2008/Australian Open 2009/US Open 2009 -
Was it simply Nadal/Del Potro played MUCH better in the final set?
Or did weak mental strength in 5 set finals for Federer just cause more errors/poor serving etc...?
Another blatant example would be the match points USO 2010 vs Djokovic.


Every slam in 2011 for example highlights his fragility:
Australian Open 2011 =
- R2 Simon: Federer 2 sets up but pushed to five. Federer had 3 match points at 0-40 2-5 on Simon's serve but could only covert at deuce on his own serve at 5-3.
-SF Djokovic: Federer was ahead in sets so many times but silly drop shots at the wrong time make him loose in straight.

Roland Garros 2011 =
- SF Djokovic: Federer 2 sets up but silly gifts gave Djokovic chance to serve for 4th set for 2 sets all. Could not convert any match points on **** serve in the TB at 6-3, only an ace got it at 6-5. If it pushed to five, his luck, he'd probably loose that too and Djokovic would've won every slam in 2011.

Wimbledon 2011 =
- QF Tsonga: No explanation necessary. Shock loss, complete loss of concentration from two sets up.

US Open 2011 =
- SF Djokovic: Again deja vu, no need to even say. Two sets up, and if thats not enough, two match points in fifth set.


Will this underlying mentality problem continue? Will be be, eventually, the mental aspect that makes him give up the game more than the physical?

abmk
01-07-2012, 10:28 AM
Funny thing is how the OP cluelessly mentions FO 2011 SF as an example ..... How pathetically dumb is that ?

federer broke back at 5-6 in the 4th set with Djoker serving for it.

Could not convert any point on Novak's serve in the TB ? well, one was an ace and the other was a point well set up by Djoker's serve ....

Federer closed it out with an ace. That is being clutch, not mentally weak !

secondly, the simon match in AO .... That was more about Simon's fight rather than federer losing it mentally. Even without playing anywhere near his best, federer somehow managed to win the final set ...... That is a testament to his mental strength ...

3 MPs lost on simon's serve ??? Does anyone remember how well Simon played to save them ????

........

He's been mentally weaker recently in slams off late of course, but those 2 examples are dumb ones to give !

MichaelNadal
01-07-2012, 12:36 PM
Stupid thread, guy has more slams than anyone in history. No one should be questioning anything when it comes to Roger Federer.

Clarky21
01-07-2012, 01:15 PM
Stupid thread, guy has more slams than anyone in history. No one should be questioning anything when it comes to Roger Federer.


Word. Dude has 16 slams and yet people question his mental strength. Ridiculous. :roll:

devila
01-08-2012, 01:20 AM
it's a gloating congrat thread for federer. like asking why paris hilton and tiger woods couldn't be best friends to federer and roddick. ddick gave his phone number to hilton. they couldn't get the chance to be the most publicized spoiled prostitutes and buddies.

kiki
01-08-2012, 02:07 AM
Federer didn´t need to be so tough since he was playing in the WTA tour with pussies like nalbandian,Roddick,Davidenkha,Murray,Tsonga and so on.When he met a real man, Nadal, see what happened...Federer the best WTA PLAYER EVER¡¡¡¡¡

jackson vile
01-08-2012, 09:10 AM
But he played against greats like Safin and Hewitt, not like they were injured and/or inconsistent or something.

Federer didn´t need to be so tough since he was playing in the WTA tour with pussies like nalbandian,Roddick,Davidenkha,Murray,Tsonga and so on.When he met a real man, Nadal, see what happened...Federer the best WTA PLAYER EVER¡¡¡¡¡

kiki
01-08-2012, 10:16 AM
But he played against greats like Safin and Hewitt, not like they were injured and/or inconsistent or something.

Yeah, but, you know, men vs women is a lost cause.Women prevail in the long term...