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Fedchamp
12-27-2011, 02:50 AM
This must've been brought up quite frequently in the past, but, how do you think champions of yesteryear would have competed with those of today? Is there a fair (and accurate) way to make this comparison?
My take on it is this- Borg could compete with Mcenroe, who could compete with Lendl, who could compete with Becker, who could compete with Hewitt/Sampras, who could compete with federer. How does this answer my question? I don't really know, except to say that champions of yesteryear could ,at least, be competative with champions of today.
I think in making the comparison you'd have to discount any hypothetical considerations in regard to their technique and equipment used. That is , compare the players as they were and are with the techniques and equipment that they used. I'd be interested in hearing other takes on this.
I think it would be interesting to have a "tournament of champions of champions" , where these players could play each other at their respective peaks. Maybe someone could to a computer sim. They can simulate anything these days, can't they?

purge
12-27-2011, 02:52 AM
Is there a fair (and accurate) way to make this comparison?


in one word.. no.

MariaRafael
12-27-2011, 06:37 AM
Maybe as far as Borg is concerned. By reputation he had immense physical strength and stamina. He once beat a hurdle race European champion in ... hurdle race. The champ's distance was 100m, Borg beat him on 400m because that champ lacked stamina.

Everybody else - no. Current players are much stronger and faster than their predecessors. THey are even bigger in size. They have the advantage of more refined training technique and medical means to improve their bodies.

slice bh compliment
12-27-2011, 06:46 AM
Not a new concept. But I like where you are going with the computer simulation. Even cooler if the programming team is comprised of 50 and 60 year-olds from Australia. That's really the only way an old-schooler would beat a modern athletic player on anything but the old grass.

Looking ahead to post-apolcalyptic 2012, I am working with my Illuminati friends on some robot-human hybrids. We've got bigger fish to fry right now, but once we're done with the geopolitical stuff, we're going to use our free time to stage a Robo-Laver vs Robo-Nadal exo. Mostly because their first names lend themselves easily to the 'Robo' prefix, but also because they would make a great matchup with contrasting styles.

Maybe we do a righty version or two, too. Robo-Federer vs Ken Robo-Wall. Then have the winners play the winners. Maybe a set of dubs, too.

urban
12-27-2011, 07:00 AM
There was acually such a computer tournament in 1986, made by Inside Tennis and the ATP computer. Based on the expertise of 36 leading tennis experts, they put all data into the ATP computer. The final had Laver winning in 5 against McEnroe, the semis had Laver-Budge and Mac-Kramer, if i remember it right.
The model was a radio transmitted computer tournament of heavyweight champs in the 70s, when Rocky Marciano beat Jack Dempsey for the title. They even made a film of a computer bout between Muhammad Ali and Rocky Marciano, where an overweight Rocky with a toupet beat Ali in the 13th round. Maybe these boxing computers preferred the white men.

Fedchamp
12-27-2011, 07:40 AM
Not a new concept. But I like where you are going with the computer simulation. Even cooler if the programming team is comprised of 50 and 60 year-olds from Australia. That's really the only way an old-schooler would beat a modern athletic player on anything but the old grass.

Looking ahead to post-apolcalyptic 2012, I am working with my Illuminati friends on some robot-human hybrids. We've got bigger fish to fry right now, but once we're done with the geopolitical stuff, we're going to use our free time to stage a Robo-Laver vs Robo-Nadal exo. Mostly because their first names lend themselves easily to the 'Robo' prefix, but also because they would make a great matchup with contrasting styles.

Maybe we do a righty version or two, too. Robo-Federer vs Ken Robo-Wall. Then have the winners play the winners. Maybe a set of dubs, too.

Oh now you're all just being silly ! :roll:

LameTennisPlayer
12-27-2011, 07:49 AM
Maybe as far as Borg is concerned. By reputation he had immense physical strength and stamina. He once beat a hurdle race European champion in ... hurdle race. The champ's distance was 100m, Borg beat him on 400m because that champ lacked stamina.



Borg beating a 110m hurdler over 400m is like comparing apples with oranges.
Sure Borg had the stamina to outlast over a longer distance, it's like a saying a marathon runner would outlast a sprinter in a long distance race. Hence the disparity between athletes who have more fast twitch fibers vs those who have more slow twitch muscle fibres.

slice bh compliment
12-27-2011, 08:22 AM
Oh now you're all just being silly ! :roll:

That's exactly the response The Man (my employer) wants to hear. Thank you! I will relay the message.

Oh, you meant about the tennis thing. Yeah, I was being silly.

Fedchamp
12-27-2011, 08:38 AM
Aww cmon guys! Isn't there a scientific way we can crunch some numbers to come up with a result? Aren't you all interested? What about personal opinions then?
I think Fed at his peak (2004-2005) is the GOAT and a level above everyone else. Although I never saw Laver play either in person or recorded on TV, I hear he was awesome too (2 calendar slams ). Borg was possibly the prototype for the modern player. ....bah I'm just bored and can't sleep.

slice bh compliment
12-27-2011, 11:42 AM
Aww cmon guys! Isn't there a scientific way we can crunch some numbers to come up with a result? Aren't you all interested? What about personal opinions then?....

Yeah, it's so hokey...the art of the inter-era comparison. It's like arguing and trying to quantify how hot this model was compared to the current ones...or how handsome Cary Grant was compared to Tony Curtis or whatever.

But with tennis, it is fun...and all we have to go on are dubious head-to-head chains, 6 degrees of Johnny Mac and like you said, personal opinions.

There is a website with this stuff already on it. I don't remember it. I rpefer just talking tennis with my dad or reading one of urban's posts on this site. Hit the search feature. You'll enjoy some old threads on this stuff.

Oh, and urban, I remember that thing back in the 80s. Laver/Mac final, yeah. I remember how it chapped my Lendl-loving teammates. My dubs partner was a Mac freak. Lefty, freckled, serve-volley touch guy. He taped the fake drawsheet to his wall.

Okay, back to robot-human hybrid research.

BeHappy
12-27-2011, 11:45 AM
Yeah, it's so hokey...the art of the inter-era comparison. It's like arguing and trying to quantify how hot this model was compared to the current ones...or how handsome Cary Grant was compared to Tony Curtis or whatever.

But with tennis, it is fun...and all we have to go on are dubious head-to-head chains, 6 degrees of Johnny Mac and like you said, personal opinions.

There is a website with this stuff already on it. I don't remember it. I rpefer just talking tennis with my dad or reading one of urban's posts on this site. Hit the search feature. You'll enjoy some old threads on this stuff.

Oh, and urban, I remember that thing back in the 80s. Laver/Mac final, yeah. I remember how it chapped my Lendl-loving teammates. My dubs partner was a Mac freak. Lefty, freckled, serve-volley touch guy. He taped the fake drawsheet to his wall.

Okay, back to robot-human hybrid research.

You know you're much calmer these days, I remember you posting a few years ago and you were much more confrontational.

slice bh compliment
12-28-2011, 03:42 AM
You know you're much calmer these days, I remember you posting a few years ago and you were much more confrontational.

Screw you. You are thinking of someone else.
LOL! I don't know, man...moment to moment I guess, learning and growing.

Okay, back to robot/human hybridization.

Cavaleer
12-28-2011, 10:17 AM
The problem with comparisons like this is the players of each generation are reflective products of that ENTIRE generation, meaning they began playing with certain sticks and developed their strokes and overall technique around those sticks and overall styles of play. If Rod Laver began playing in the mid-90s who knows what sort of BH he would have. With Borg using one of these newer frames it's to tell what his strokes would even look like. The easiest examples are players like Nadal and Connors, who were complete reflections of the equipment of their eras. Only a few have the physical and technical strengths that could be transferred from era to era- Federer, Sampras, probably Borg, probably Lendl, probably Djoker.

Fedchamp
12-29-2011, 12:54 AM
The problem with comparisons like this is the players of each generation are reflective products of that ENTIRE generation, meaning they began playing with certain sticks and developed their strokes and overall technique around those sticks and overall styles of play. If Rod Laver began playing in the mid-90s who knows what sort of BH he would have. With Borg using one of these newer frames it's to tell what his strokes would even look like. The easiest examples are players like Nadal and Connors, who were complete reflections of the equipment of their eras. Only a few have the physical and technical strengths that could be transferred from era to era- Federer, Sampras, probably Borg, probably Lendl, probably Djoker.

Yeah exactly. Technology/techniques improve over time in all sports. It's hard enough saying who has been the best player in the last 5 years, let alone the last 50.No harm in speculating though.