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View Full Version : What's your average first serve speed? How is your most used one spinning?


DeShaun
01-12-2012, 08:44 PM
I average in the low to mid eighties. Slice-topspin that either stays low and seems to penetrate quite well, or kicks pretty fast with mild gyrating effect to navel height (rarely any higher) and jumps up and crawl on people. So, I guess it's a body serve or a hot slider that tends to be my most common first serve.
. . .now, first serve percentage is a different story.

zapvor
01-12-2012, 09:36 PM
you got video proof?

my first serves are at about 130mph. maybe 140 on a good day

DeShaun
01-12-2012, 09:46 PM
you got video proof?

my first serves are at about 130mph. maybe 140 on a good day

Aw, no. I'm going to try to get some this week though. I didn't think claiming an 82.5mph top-slice would set off anyone's alarm, that it was anything worth bragging about. Was just saying it as cold fact.

zapvor
01-12-2012, 09:54 PM
Aw, no. I'm going to try to get some this week though. I didn't think claiming an 82.5mph top-slice would set off anyone's alarm, that it was anything worth bragging about. Was just saying it as cold fact.

now you are saying 82.5?? you must have a radar gun or something. post the video!

DeShaun
01-12-2012, 10:21 PM
now you are saying 82.5?? you must have a radar gun or something. post the video!


My friend said he owns a radar gun. I know that he owns an Ipad, because he's made videos already of me. I'm going to see about him bringing that stuff to the court. He has said that this was his intent.

zapvor
01-12-2012, 10:30 PM
haha i am just teasing you. 82 is pretty good though. i doubt i can hit that high consistently.

TennisCJC
01-13-2012, 11:42 AM
I know guys that were clocked - one in the mid-90s and the other around 120. Using them as a reference, I would say my harder first serves are the the 80s with occasionally one in the 90s. Maybe very rare one breaks 100 - such as the serve at 5-2 40-love where you just go for it and it happens to go in.

J011yroger
01-13-2012, 01:57 PM
I'll try to grab some fresh batteries for the radar. It seems quite a bit slower since I hurt my back, and one of my main goals for spring is to get it back up to speed.

J

r2473
01-13-2012, 02:08 PM
I'll try to grab some fresh batteries for the radar. It seems quite a bit slower since I hurt my back, and one of my main goals for spring is to get it back up to speed.

J

Where do you point the gun? Watch from 2:00 (yes, I know you know this stuff, but I always wonder how an average guy would set up a speed gun to test for serve speed).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV8vtO-uzfY

WildVolley
01-13-2012, 02:57 PM
Where do you point the gun? Watch from 2:00 (yes, I know you know this stuff, but I always wonder how an average guy would set up a speed gun to test for serve speed).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV8vtO-uzfY

Depends on your radar. I have a gun style radar and it is safest to mount it slightly above and behind the person serving. Ideally, it would be mounted at around 9 feet for me, but I don't have a tripod that tall. Instead, I normally have someone just hold it and measure it by holding down the trigger when I serve. The only downside is sometimes it locks onto the racket or my arm before the ball is hit and I register readings of 14mph, when I'm serving closer to 100mph.

I've also shot radar on the far side of the court, and it registers about the same as if behind the person. So if I'm in range it still works well, but I don't want to risk breaking it by serving at the gun.

HunterST
01-13-2012, 03:28 PM
I use a speedtrac and usually put it just behind the net. I always got around 85-88 MPH. I haven't tested it in about 8 months or so, though.

If it's true that putting it around the net makes for a slightly lower number, I guess that would put them around 90-95 or so?

Up&comer
01-13-2012, 03:34 PM
I max out around 110-115. That's IF I hit it flat and hard. I can't be that consistent with it. Average is probably around 100. Slice with a little kick.

RoddickAce
01-13-2012, 04:08 PM
I averaged 165.25kph at Rogers cup with flat serves, so like 102.68mph.

I don't really have a most used type of first serve. I tend to vary my first serve a lot, depending on my opponent's return strengths/weaknesses.

I haven't clocked my slices and kicks, but they are most likely at least 10-15 mph slower. So realistically, my first serve average speed is probably lower, in the low to mid 90's mph.

dizzlmcwizzl
01-13-2012, 04:11 PM
I once had my serve gunned at the Cincinnati masters event and they clocked it at 129 mph to win the serve competition for the day. But I did not really trust that equipment

I have used a personal radar gun but have always been dissatisfied with the number ... I have a cheap one that has read as high as 110 but usually I get results between 15 and 100... Unfortunately no one is willing to stand in front of me and standing behind me is a challenge to get a good angle.

I recently have begun taping my play and using the frame rate speed calculator on talk tennis has given me what I think is a more accurate number for serve speed ..... but who really knows.

On the most recent match I measured 10 hard flat 1st serves with the numbers ranged from 105 - 115. But about half the time on my first serve I hit a kicker and those serves typically run about 85-90 mph. According to the TT serve speed calculator.

pvaudio
01-13-2012, 07:14 PM
I once had my serve gunned at the Cincinnati masters event and they clocked it at 129 mph to win the serve competition for the day. But I did not really trust that equipment

I have used a personal radar gun but have always been dissatisfied with the number ... I have a cheap one that has read as high as 110 but usually I get results between 15 and 100... Unfortunately no one is willing to stand in front of me and standing behind me is a challenge to get a good angle.

I recently have begun taping my play and using the frame rate speed calculator on talk tennis has given me what I think is a more accurate number for serve speed ..... but who really knows.

On the most recent match I measured 10 hard flat 1st serves with the numbers ranged from 105 - 115. But about half the time on my first serve I hit a kicker and those serves typically run about 85-90 mph. According to the TT serve speed calculator.
That's because you can cheat. You are not serving on a court, you're serving in a 7ft square (I know this because I've been there) and can easily get ridiculous numbers that wouldn't be anywhere near the box.

pvaudio
01-13-2012, 07:16 PM
The maximum that I ever hit was a few years ago (Indianapolis) at 122. Flat serves now are in the 1-teens, with my normal first serve being in the low 100s.

WildVolley
01-13-2012, 09:48 PM
The fastest I've hit on radar is 115mph, but I'm certain that I've hit faster in actual matches. However, my serve changes from day-to-day. Sometimes, I can hit in the 110mph range without difficulty, and then the next day I can struggle to get 100mph.

I've never had anyone actually take statistics on a whole match or even a set of my serves. I'd bet that I average in the 90s on 1st serves and probably average in the 70s on my 2nd serves (might be even slower on the 2nd).

The 3.0 to 5.0 crowd I play with do not tend to hit fast serves. The 5.0 ranked player I sometimes hit with does not hit a big flat serve. His serves mostly have topspin, and I'd estimate his first serve averages in the 80mph range.

dr325i
01-14-2012, 12:03 AM
That's because you can cheat. You are not serving on a court, you're serving in a 7ft square (I know this because I've been there) and can easily get ridiculous numbers that wouldn't be anywhere near the box.

how do you cheat the speed?
100 mph on an open court and in a 5 ft box is 100 mph. Unless you measure your speed at a different point (net vs point of contact)...which changes everything

maggmaster
01-14-2012, 02:35 AM
Because the serve would never go in on a court...

dr325i
01-14-2012, 02:39 AM
Because the serve would never go in on a court...

Ah, so we only count the "good" serves?
Why do they clock faulted serves at the real matches?

dizzlmcwizzl
01-14-2012, 02:43 AM
how do you cheat the speed?
100 mph on an open court and in a 5 ft box is 100 mph. Unless you measure your speed at a different point (net vs point of contact)...which changes everything

I will say that on this day I was trying to use my normal serving motion and not attempting to do anything but hit it hard.

After I took the lead for the day the guy that was running the machine had to point out to the girls he was chatting up that he could beat my score ... when he served he walked up and hit the ball while he was moving forward in a manner you would never hit an actual serve ... he was able to get into the 130's pretty easily since he had had probably never tried to put one in the service box.

zapvor
01-14-2012, 10:39 PM
wow.......all you guys claim to hit 100mph as average first serve?????? ok lets start putting up some video guys

Passion4Tennis
01-14-2012, 11:01 PM
wow.......all you guys claim to hit 100mph as average first serve?????? ok lets start putting up some video guys

Yeah, I was about to say the same thing earlier today. I know there are some high level players on this site that are capable of it, but I think they are in the minority. I've never used a radar gun before, but I seriously doubt mine are close to 100. I would say that my first serve avg. is probably between 70-85mph, and I feel that is a more realistic number for the 4.0 and under crowd. Although I have faced a few 4.0's that probably can hit 100 or close to it.

zapvor
01-14-2012, 11:11 PM
Yeah, I was about to say the same thing earlier today. I know there are some high level players on this site that are capable of it, but I think they are in the minority.

yea.....i want to see how many of these guys actually put up proof...i say maybe 1

Passion4Tennis
01-14-2012, 11:39 PM
I think Drak used his radar gun on some high level players he knew, and most of them were surprised that their serves weren't as big as they thought.

zapvor
01-15-2012, 12:02 AM
I think Drak used his radar gun on some high level players he knew, and most of them were surprised that their serves weren't as big as they thought.

exactly....these guys are stating they were clocked by radar guns too. so they dont have that excuse!!!

dizzlmcwizzl
01-15-2012, 03:50 AM
1st ... let me state up front that I know this is a fools errand. No matter what evidence I present I am aware that I will trashed and any reputation I have will be sullied ... However these are two honest attempts to show that I am not full of shiz ...


The first is a video I prepared for another thread where I am attempting to improve both my fitness and my skill level. I did not do the clever editing and I deleted the original footage so counting frames for me is a lot harder. However, I think it is clear that the ball was struck well. 1st Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edzHRRI1UUk&t=52s).

The second video is the only original footage I have left on my computer. I had not edited it before because the angle is screwy ... however I did the frame rate calculator on the original footage and to the best of my knowledge this is an accurate snapshot of a flat 1st serve. I tried to be very particular by taking off 2 feet but I dont think it was that much. I also think I added 0.25 frames when I did not need to ... but again trying to reduce the carnage. 2nd Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B1VuqshqTE).

J011yroger
01-15-2012, 06:19 AM
http://vimeo.com/6043100

Serving with a stiff back, and a random old ball from my bag using a $2.99 Pancho Gonzales woodie that I found at 'The Salvation Army'.

109mph at the net should translate to around 121mph off the racquet face on pro radar.

J

WildVolley
01-15-2012, 07:04 AM
wow.......all you guys claim to hit 100mph as average first serve?????? ok lets start putting up some video guys

One person said he averages 100mph, so I'm not sure how that translates into "all you guys"?:confused:

WildVolley
01-15-2012, 07:25 AM
Ah, so we only count the "good" serves?
Why do they clock faulted serves at the real matches?

Most tournaments have a radar system that is mounted behind the players and measures peak speed off the racket. Spectators can see the speed if it registers correctly. The radar gun doesn't know if the ball was good or out, which is why it is displayed.

It isn't nearly as difficult to repeatedly strike a ball hard, as to hit it hard and into the court. I had a player who was about 5'4" tall and he could serve near 100mph with a semi-western grip. However, that serve only went into the box about once in every twenty attempts.

sureshs
01-15-2012, 07:38 AM
The reality is that very few club players can reach 100 mph

RoddickAce
01-15-2012, 07:55 AM
I wouldn't consider myself a high level player. High 4.0-low 4.5 max.

The serves I got clocked at Rogers Cup, the radar was behind the net, near the back of the service box, and as I posted earlier, averaged around 102-103mph.

I know at least 3-4 guys at around my level that can hit faster serves than me.

edit:
105mph Serve at Rogers Cup:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqSi1zgBfy8 - My friends didn't record all my serves, and this was the only one I could dig up for now. I missed this one wide, but it is at 169kph or 105 mph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxE6HuFow0Y&feature=related - These are my normal serves now. I don't feel I spent extra effort to hit the 100mph serves at the Rogers Cup.

HunterST
01-15-2012, 07:56 AM
Yeeah, I gotta question these claims too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afIY9QeYnWM That's my serve, and it's probably around 85 mph.

these serves are more like 120 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmHeDYQ89zY

The videos I've seen of people's serves look a lot more like mine than like the 120 serves.

newton296
01-15-2012, 08:02 AM
I once had my serve gunned at the Cincinnati masters event and they clocked it at 129 mph to win the serve competition for the day. But I did not really trust that equipment

I have used a personal radar gun but have always been dissatisfied with the number ... I have a cheap one that has read as high as 110 but usually I get results between 15 and 100... Unfortunately no one is willing to stand in front of me and standing behind me is a challenge to get a good angle.

I recently have begun taping my play and using the frame rate speed calculator on talk tennis has given me what I think is a more accurate number for serve speed ..... but who really knows.

On the most recent match I measured 10 hard flat 1st serves with the numbers ranged from 105 - 115. But about half the time on my first serve I hit a kicker and those serves typically run about 85-90 mph. According to the TT serve speed calculator.


was at same tournament and the best I could hit out of 3 tries was 103 mph. but I would say I was losing about 10-15 mph due the fact that I had no warm up, a borrowed racquet, and some pretty beat up balls. I would love to try again with my volkl pb815 and some fresh balls.

RoddickAce
01-15-2012, 08:17 AM
http://vimeo.com/6043100

Serving with a stiff back, and a random old ball from my bag using a $2.99 Pancho Gonzales woodie that I found at 'The Salvation Army'.

109mph at the net should translate to around 121mph off the racquet face on pro radar.

J

Hey Jolly, just curious about my serve speed then. What about 105mph at the back of the opponent's service box?

dizzlmcwizzl
01-15-2012, 08:18 AM
was at same tournament and the best I could hit out of 3 tries was 103 mph. but I would say I was losing about 10-15 mph due the fact that I had no warm up, a borrowed racquet, and some pretty beat up balls. I would love to try again with my volkl pb815 and some fresh balls.

The cage they had presented a problem for me. They positioned it so that you had to face the sun and if I stood in the middle of the cage I would be staring right into the sun and have to deal with a drooping net. So I had to stand right in front of the gun and angled slightly so I could take my normal swing. Combine that with the oversized prince racket they had to for me to borrow and the balls that had already been used by a 1000 people I figure I could have done a little better than I did ...

dr325i
01-15-2012, 09:40 AM
Yeeah, I gotta question these claims too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afIY9QeYnWM That's my serve, and it's probably around 85 mph.

these serves are more like 120 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmHeDYQ89zY

The videos I've seen of people's serves look a lot more like mine than like the 120 serves.

Verdasco's kickers are not 120 mph.
Yours is about 80-85.

NLBwell
01-15-2012, 09:47 AM
Yeeah, I gotta question these claims too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afIY9QeYnWM That's my serve, and it's probably around 85 mph.

these serves are more like 120 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmHeDYQ89zY

The videos I've seen of people's serves look a lot more like mine than like the 120 serves.

Looking at the videos I don't think there is that much difference between them. Your serve looks to be in the 90s and the others are probably more like 110. They are practicing, not going full-throttle.

Dadof10s
01-15-2012, 09:51 AM
Looking at the videos I don't think there is that much difference between them. Your serve looks to be in the 90s and the others are probably more like 110. They are practicing, not going full-throttle.

To me Hunter's serves look maybe 80ish. Sorry but no way the serve he posted is in the 90s. I would agree the practice pros were hitting 110 or so.

HunterST
01-15-2012, 10:00 AM
Verdasco's kickers are not 120 mph.
Yours is about 80-85.

Yeah, the kicks aren't going 120 and look how much faster they look than the serves of any rec players who say they hit close to 120. For a more fair comparison, we can look at his partner who is hitting much flatter and probably around 115-120. I've clocked my serve many times, and it's usually about 85-88 for first serves.

At any rate, I wasn't comparing mine to Verdasco's. I was showing what serves that do go 110+ look like. No one online who claims to hit 120 have serves that look like either of those pros (keep in mind they are warming up/practicing). Posters on here have serves that look much more comparable in speed to mine.

dr325i
01-15-2012, 10:44 AM
Yeah, the kicks aren't going 120 and look how much faster they look than the serves of any rec players who say they hit close to 120. For a more fair comparison, we can look at his partner who is hitting much flatter and probably around 115-120. I've clocked my serve many times, and it's usually about 85-88 for first serves.

At any rate, I wasn't comparing mine to Verdasco's. I was showing what serves that do go 110+ look like. No one online who claims to hit 120 have serves that look like either of those pros (keep in mind they are warming up/practicing). Posters on here have serves that look much more comparable in speed to mine.

I would not say no one...
I have hit against the posters that CAN hit 120 -- not consistently and not accurately.
The point we all miss is that the pros do it consistently (Fed for example hits 80% of his first serves in the range 120-125); and they aim for the specific point in the box while hitting this. The best/fastest server on this board may hit 120 mph, but rarely very close to the target he aimed for...

WildVolley
01-15-2012, 11:36 AM
A 100mph flat serve is not some incredible feat for someone with decent form. Jolly posted a 100mph + serve. Does that look freaky fast?

Also, don't base the serve speed on how it looks. Use a radar gun to measure your speed. The reason Verdasco's serve looks impressive in that video is due to the amount of spin, not the speed. Take away some spin and it is not hard to bring 100mph.

I have a radar gun and found that it is not unusual for young athletic high school players (most could probably compete at 3.5) to be able to hit 100mph serves if they go for it. One of my players (I'd rate 3.5 but athletic and wild) hit a 115mph serve when he was seeing how fast he could serve. He had a good throwing arm.

rkelley
01-15-2012, 12:25 PM
Yeeah, I gotta question these claims too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afIY9QeYnWM That's my serve, and it's probably around 85 mph.

these serves are more like 120 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmHeDYQ89zY

The videos I've seen of people's serves look a lot more like mine than like the 120 serves.

Put me into the group that would call Verdasco's serve in the video well below 120. I'd guess is mid 90's. There's a ton of spin and action on that ball though, and it's kicking up high. It's a good serve. It's harder to return than a flat serve with little spin going the same speed. I don't think he was trying to bomb it in.

RoddickAce
01-15-2012, 12:43 PM
Put me into the group that would call Verdasco's serve in the video well below 120. I'd guess is mid 90's. There's a ton of spin and action on that ball though, and it's kicking up high. It's a good serve. It's harder to return than a flat serve with little spin going the same speed. I don't think he was trying to bomb it in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmHeDYQ89zY&t=2m3s

He gradually hit harder and harder, so there were some flatter, harder serves near the end.

Larrysümmers
01-15-2012, 01:01 PM
i usually hit around 120-135mph on average. sometimes i like to gun some around 140-150mph when im really on and feel like pounding the serve. a handful of years ago i hit a 155mph serve. heck once i served so hard it got stuck in the red clay ;D

NLBwell
01-15-2012, 01:47 PM
Nice to see you posting here Andy!

spacediver
01-15-2012, 01:54 PM
http://vimeo.com/6043100

Serving with a stiff back, and a random old ball from my bag using a $2.99 Pancho Gonzales woodie that I found at 'The Salvation Army'.

109mph at the net should translate to around 121mph off the racquet face on pro radar.

J

what makes you think that the radar gun was measuring the speed of the ball as it passes the net? Just because the gun is at the net doesn't mean it measures the ball as it crosses the net.

NLBwell
01-15-2012, 02:10 PM
This isn't about where the radar is placed, but about how quickly the radar picks up the ball in flight. Expensive radar guns will pick up the ball right off the racket, the boxes at the net later in flight.
The general consensus among those knowledgable in a thread several years ago came to about 5 to 10 mph. Based on that I'd say Jolly's serve was about 114 to 119 mph.

Rock Strongo
01-15-2012, 02:33 PM
My serve speed is actually something I get praise for by coaches and younger players at my club (note, I said speed, not percentage because my first serve% is horrible) and I've been timed at 162 km/h while wearing everyday clothing and no shoes with an old Prince Powerflex with VERY old strings though most serves were around the 125-130 mark. Given I've warmed up properly and is dressed and equipped for the occasion I could average 130-135 and max out at around 165-170. However I miss most every time I try to go flat out.

My most used one can spin up to around just under shoulder height on someone who's 5'10 though I have kicked over people on clay (it's the back-killer). I'll try to record a video of me hitting with my friend once he's able, which isn't that often because we live too far apart and generally once see eachother during school breaks but we might play together some day and I'll bring my camera for that occasion.

Speaking of said friend, he's 2½ years younger than me (he's 15 if you may wonder) and he's in posession of a massive serve. He says he thinks he can reach 200 km/h and having been on the receiving end of it I don't see any reason why it wouldn't.

But then he trains like 6 billion hours a week and is one of the best in his age group here in Sweden (compared to me who was talented at 8-11 but then stopped for a few years due to lack of money and now only plays an hour a week) but overall I think he could hit bigger serves than most here.

We've talked about getting a radar but they're too expensive and we haven't looked at our respective clubs yet, but I'll get a camera and a court during spring break and hopefully borrow a radar on that so that I can provide the mighty proof.

J011yroger
01-15-2012, 06:38 PM
Hey Jolly, just curious about my serve speed then. What about 105mph at the back of the opponent's service box?

That is pro radar, it should pick the ball up fairly soon after it leaves your racquet.

I would guess your 105, would be comprable to 105 on TV, it is just with the cheapo units that there is more angle error, and it picks the ball up later.

Radar has gotten much more accurate in the last 20 years, I remember when Sampras would serve big,in the early 90s it would be around 125, and now he is clocking in the 130s, same with Mac, now serving 125s on the seniors tour, and rarely over 110-115 in his prime.

J

WildVolley
01-15-2012, 07:10 PM
Have you tested the range on your SpeedTrac X? I believe it claims to have a 30 foot range or so. I'm very suspicious about the extent of the correction you suggested when it is placed near the net.

I have a Sports Radar Tracer gun and it has a longer range. I very roughly tested it by clocking a player who was consistently hitting in the mid 90s. Whether I was behind him or even on the opposite baseline, I was getting the same reading, which I assume was shortly after the ball left the racket.

Shouldn't your SpeedTrac X start to pick up the ball once it is about 10 feet into the court?

J011yroger
01-15-2012, 07:20 PM
Have you tested the range on your SpeedTrac X? I believe it claims to have a 30 foot range or so. I'm very suspicious about the extent of the correction you suggested when it is placed near the net.

I have a Sports Radar Tracer gun and it has a longer range. I very roughly tested it by clocking a player who was consistently hitting in the mid 90s. Whether I was behind him or even on the opposite baseline, I was getting the same reading, which I assume was shortly after the ball left the racket.

Shouldn't your SpeedTrac X start to pick up the ball once it is about 10 feet into the court?

The readings are very dubious in my opinion, and I consider it mostly a novelty.

If I recall when I would walk towards it, it would pick me up about 5+ feet away.

I suppose I could set it up at the net and then start taking steps towards it swishing my racquet and see how far away it picks me up.

Also there is angle error to consider.

J

WildVolley
01-15-2012, 07:36 PM
The readings are very dubious in my opinion, and I consider it mostly a novelty.

If I recall when I would walk towards it, it would pick me up about 5+ feet away.

I suppose I could set it up at the net and then start taking steps towards it swishing my racquet and see how far away it picks me up.

Also there is angle error to consider.

J

It would be interesting to set up a test of the various consumer level radars to see how consistent they are with each other. I know one guy supposedly tested the radar I use versus a much more expensive Juggs radar and claimed that it was essentially reading the same.

On most serves, especially those down the center, I assume that the cosine error is trivial and should cause the gun to read slow.

I've only had my gun grossly malfunction once. I was measuring a player serving from the opposing baseline and he was hitting in the mid 80s. He hit another serve, basically looked the same as all the others, and I caught it in my hand. For some reason the gun read 130!:shock: I still have no idea what it was reading, and I assume it was just a glitch. All the other times what I was seeing seemed to match up with what the gun was showing.

J011yroger
01-15-2012, 07:41 PM
It would be interesting to set up a test of the various consumer level radars to see how consistent they are with each other. I know one guy supposedly tested the radar I use versus a much more expensive Juggs radar and claimed that it was essentially reading the same.

On most serves, especially those down the center, I assume that the cosine error is trivial and should cause the gun to read slow.

I've only had my gun grossly malfunction once. I was measuring a player serving from the opposing baseline and he was hitting in the mid 80s. He hit another serve, basically looked the same as all the others, and I caught it in my hand. For some reason the gun read 130!:shock: I still have no idea what it was reading, and I assume it was just a glitch. All the other times what I was seeing seemed to match up with what the gun was showing.

Sometimes I will paste one, and the gun will read like 45, or 60, on what is obviously much faster. And it gets really wacky if the battery is low.

I would be willing to bet on a substantial difference between similar units aswell. I would be quite surprised if the speed tracks all read the same.

But like I said, it is mostly a novelty. I know what my serve is, and I know when it is fast enough, and when it isn't. I have faced borderline world class serves, and know I don't have one. :)

J

5263
01-15-2012, 07:58 PM
The readings are very dubious in my opinion, and I consider it mostly a novelty.

If I recall when I would walk towards it, it would pick me up about 5+ feet away.

I suppose I could set it up at the net and then start taking steps towards it swishing my racquet and see how far away it picks me up.

Also there is angle error to consider.

J

Few have an appreciation for how good the pick up is on the pro events till you get to serve on one. Our experience was that our serve was much faster than anything we were able to clock on the various handheld and box versions. I also used to hit with the second fastest lady server in the country back in the 90's. They had to make 2 good serves for an avg and she won the event with a 120 or 121 avg for her 2 counting serves at a pro event radar set up and missed on a couple around 125. (I think Venus had served 124 at the time)

Anyway, this woman could only get about 109 at the club with our hand held radar, with most of them around 105. Nearly everything every one she hit on the pro radar was over 115 though. She said that she found the difference of about 10-15 mph was pretty much the norm. We saw similar results with others as well like one of my teammates who hit in the high 130s on the pro radar set up and won the opportunity to play Sampras in a tiebreaker.

yes the pros serve incredibly, but it's more due to spin and placement than raw speed. I've played with quite a few guys who can serve harder than 80% of the tour pros normally do, but they lack the spin, consistency, and placement the pros usually have.

HunterST
01-16-2012, 01:39 PM
Sometimes I will paste one, and the gun will read like 45, or 60, on what is obviously much faster. And it gets really wacky if the battery is low.

I would be willing to bet on a substantial difference between similar units aswell. I would be quite surprised if the speed tracks all read the same.

But like I said, it is mostly a novelty. I know what my serve is, and I know when it is fast enough, and when it isn't. I have faced borderline world class serves, and know I don't have one. :)

J

Few have an appreciation for how good the pick up is on the pro events till you get to serve on one. Our experience was that our serve was much faster than anything we were able to clock on the various handheld and box versions. I also used to hit with the second fastest lady server in the country back in the 90's. They had to make 2 good serves for an avg and she won the event with a 120 or 121 avg for her 2 counting serves at a pro event radar set up and missed on a couple around 125. (I think Venus had served 124 at the time)

Anyway, this woman could only get about 109 at the club with our hand held radar, with most of them around 105. Nearly everything every one she hit on the pro radar was over 115 though. She said that she found the difference of about 10-15 mph was pretty much the norm. We saw similar results with others as well like one of my teammates who hit in the high 130s on the pro radar set up and won the opportunity to play Sampras in a tiebreaker.

yes the pros serve incredibly, but it's more due to spin and placement than raw speed. I've played with quite a few guys who can serve harder than 80% of the tour pros normally do, but they lack the spin, consistency, and placement the pros usually have.

So you guys would say my serves that clock 85 or 90 are more like 95 or 100?

WildVolley
01-16-2012, 06:18 PM
So you guys would say my serves that clock 85 or 90 are more like 95 or 100?

I wouldn't, but 5263 seems to have experience with the professional radar so his opinion is probably worth more.

In my opinion, the radar reading is less reliable if it is being read with a gun with limited range and the ball is having to travel a distance before it is registered, or if the ball is angling across the radar a bit more creating a larger cosine error which will cause the gun to underestimate the speed.

The professional system I saw at Indian Wells had multiple guns mounted above and behind the server and seemed to triangulate on the speed, so it probably corrects for the cosine error.

What sort of radar are you using to measure your serve speed?

HunterST
01-16-2012, 06:39 PM
I wouldn't, but 5263 seems to have experience with the professional radar so his opinion is probably worth more.

In my opinion, the radar reading is less reliable if it is being read with a gun with limited range and the ball is having to travel a distance before it is registered, or if the ball is angling across the radar a bit more creating a larger cosine error which will cause the gun to underestimate the speed.

The professional system I saw at Indian Wells had multiple guns mounted above and behind the server and seemed to triangulate on the speed, so it probably corrects for the cosine error.

What sort of radar are you using to measure your serve speed?

Exact same as Jo11y. I'm not sure about these corrections either. I feel like serves close to 120 mph will look more like the serves in the video I posted of Verdasco and his partner (everyone seems to ignore his partner's serves for some reason). No offense to Jo11y, but his serves just don't look like that, and they seem like 109 would be more accurate. I know the pros have more spin and such, but even the very flat serves look quite different. Heck, Verdasco's kicks would probably be around 95 mph, so, if these corrections are right, that would mean my serves are traveling about the same speed has his, and that doesn't seem accurate. Not even considering his huge kick and spin, the ball just seems to be traveling through the air faster than mine.

Timbo's hopeless slice
01-16-2012, 06:55 PM
well, verdasco was serving 2nd serve kickers at 170 - 180 km/h yesterday at the AO,, tha is over 100 mph...

anyone know how accurate teh ATP booth thing is? I am gonn ahve a go at it, I averaged about 175km/h on a show court with a gun last year in a match, but I dunno how accurate that was, either.

mxmx
01-17-2012, 05:01 AM
Would you guys agree that taller players seem to have faster serves, when this is not always the case?

LeeD
01-17-2012, 12:43 PM
Taller players generally have the potential to serve faster than sub 5'8" players. Longer leverage, better angle, more chances of the ball going in promotes more tries at a faster serve. Besides, it'd look silly for a tall player to run around fetching and getting like a Rochus or Cibulklova.
And usually, taller players don't change directions as well as shorter players, so they like to start the point more aggressively.

Hollandtennis
01-17-2012, 04:46 PM
I once had my serve gunned at the Cincinnati masters event and they clocked it at 129 mph to win the serve competition for the day. But I did not really trust that equipment

I have used a personal radar gun but have always been dissatisfied with the number ... I have a cheap one that has read as high as 110 but usually I get results between 15 and 100... Unfortunately no one is willing to stand in front of me and standing behind me is a challenge to get a good angle.

I recently have begun taping my play and using the frame rate speed calculator on talk tennis has given me what I think is a more accurate number for serve speed ..... but who really knows.

On the most recent match I measured 10 hard flat 1st serves with the numbers ranged from 105 - 115. But about half the time on my first serve I hit a kicker and those serves typically run about 85-90 mph. According to the TT serve speed calculator.

Was that this year? I remember talking to you then haha, I had the under 18s record then lost it by 1 mph.

dennis10is
01-17-2012, 04:58 PM
My serve is around 40-50 mph. As a net rusher, I would waddle up to the net, take four steps on my ridiculously short legs and split step behind the service line, ready to do damage if the balls comes within 1.5 - 3 feet on either side of me.

NLBwell
01-17-2012, 10:13 PM
That's probably good enough to win a lot of matches - at least you have a strategy.

WildVolley
01-18-2012, 08:11 AM
My serve is around 40-50 mph. As a net rusher, I would waddle up to the net, take four steps on my ridiculously short legs and split step behind the service line, ready to do damage if the balls comes within 1.5 - 3 feet on either side of me.

You da man!!!!

How's the 2.0 league play going?

LeeD
01-18-2012, 09:22 AM
Actually.....
A well placed 50 mph serve can do well in solid competitive 3.5 level tennis, if the ball is moved away from the strong side, and the volley is good.
It's surprising how inconsistent returns can be if the reciever is inside the baseline (mental challenge to NOT go for a winner), the server can volley consistently, including low and half volleys, and no 4.5 is on the court.
Remember, not all 3.5 players are comfortable at the net!
I'd say this strategy almost works at solid 4.0 levels, IF the serve is well placed, the spin is varied, and the placement is in an unusual spot, like 5' inside the service line, but well off to one side or the other, with low skidding sidespin.
I know this in unconventional thought/strategy/tactic, but I've seen it work at a pretty high level. Well, lower than 4.5, for sure.

gavna
01-18-2012, 09:54 AM
My serve is around 40-50 mph. As a net rusher, I would waddle up to the net, take four steps on my ridiculously short legs and split step behind the service line, ready to do damage if the balls comes within 1.5 - 3 feet on either side of me.

How refreshing - HONESTY - with all these 120 mph++++ serves around here.....

double barrels
01-18-2012, 11:09 AM
I like to hit either a flat first serve, a slider or body kick first serve.
Flat ~105-115 mph
Slider ~90-100
Body kick anywhere from 90 to 110

Second Serve
Ill go somewhat kick/angle to the backhand
~75 on the duece side, and about 85 on the ad side
If i go flat on the second serve, try to keep it in the low 90s

Normally if I know my serve is feeling really good, I can get my second serve in around 80% @ 90mph, then Ill just go about 10% harder on my first serve.

Have been clocked at 132 mph for a serve thats gone in. (3 yrs ago and 1.5 inches shorter than I am now)
Normally the fastest serve Ill get in a match will be somewhere in the low 120s.

dr325i
01-18-2012, 12:36 PM
I like to hit either a flat first serve, a slider or body kick first serve.
Flat ~105-115 mph
Slider ~90-100
Body kick anywhere from 90 to 110

Second Serve
Ill go somewhat kick/angle to the backhand
~75 on the duece side, and about 85 on the ad side
If i go flat on the second serve, try to keep it in the low 90s

Normally if I know my serve is feeling really good, I can get my second serve in around 80% @ 90mph, then Ill just go about 10% harder on my first serve.

Have been clocked at 132 mph for a serve thats gone in. (3 yrs ago and 1.5 inches shorter than I am now)
Normally the fastest serve Ill get in a match will be somewhere in the low 120s.


Video of the 120's and you're good ;)

LeeD
01-18-2012, 01:22 PM
While I don't doubt DB's 125 first serve, I do doubt and seriously question the idea of a "90 mph flat SECOND serve". That just seem wrong. Why hit it flat if your SPIN serve goes 85? Why lower your percentage?
And who really gets IN 80% of their 90 mph serves? DB is not 5.5 or better, I'd assume.

SStrikerR
01-18-2012, 05:12 PM
If I had to guess, I'd say my first serve averages between 85-90 mph, with my max being just over 100 (one of those, "it's 40-0 so I'm just gonna whack the crap out of this" serves). I'm basing this off my friend's serve, which was clocked by club pros with different radar guns at 105-110. However, his rarely goes in.

As for my slider, when I really go for it I think I can hit 80, but the average speed is lower, obviously.

My kick serve is pretty slow right now because I'm still learning it (and I wouldn't guess the speed) but it has enough action that people have trouble returning it usually.

These are all guesses/estimates, but I can promise you I'm not exaggerating numbers to make myself seem better. A singles player in high school who trains often should serve better than your average club player anyway.

LeeD
01-18-2012, 05:23 PM
One factor than can indicate your serve prowess or speed is when you go onto a set of courts that have decent players all around, mostly better than you. If your serve POPS louder, everyone stops play to WATCH you serve, even thos your court is not inhabited by the best players, you KNOW your serve is something special.
Try going to a major college court, hit some serves, and see if the players all around, who are much better players than you, stop and watch you hit a few serves.

double barrels
01-19-2012, 05:06 AM
While I don't doubt DB's 125 first serve, I do doubt and seriously question the idea of a "90 mph flat SECOND serve". That just seem wrong. Why hit it flat if your SPIN serve goes 85? Why lower your percentage?
And who really gets IN 80% of their 90 mph serves? DB is not 5.5 or better, I'd assume.

hence the name double barrels.
--that's only when I know I have a good rhythm going.
unfortunately for me, I hit a higher % flat serve than a spin serve right now. The kick I generate is still relatively weak in my own opinion, I was never taught to serve so I have developed a good feel to just smack it down. (im 6' 5").
Id say my serve is at a 5.0 level, possibly a little higher than that because of the awkwardness in my patterns. I'm not afraid to go after the second serve, and a handful of doubles faults in a set has never bothered me a ton (even though I have been getting the percentage better in the past few years). With that mentality being said, I have just taught myself to hit a second serve around 90mph and expect it to go in.
As I don't have any video right now, I would doubt myself too. My second serve is nothing unbelievable at all, but if i can get it flat to their backhand or near body, I usually do okay and still get free points. My problem is my kick serve is about as good as Isner's backhand. I can't wait to post how bad my kick serve is, then hopefully see what Im doing wrong, and fix it.

dennis10is
01-19-2012, 09:07 AM
You da man!!!!

How's the 2.0 league play going?

I'm a strong, even dominant 1.0, truth be told. Sadly, I'm not at the 2.0 level, the power and precision of the 2.0 would overwhelm me.

Fuji
01-19-2012, 09:09 AM
My fastest serve that was clocked was 115MPH with a radar gun, how accurate, no idea.

My average is closer to the low-mid 90's for first serve. My 2nd serve is around 75-85 depending on what I'm hitting.

-Fuji

LeeD
01-19-2012, 11:11 AM
Just wondering, MrFuji.....
When you hit your 115, did it go IN?
Our day, we were given 7 serves. Only the IN serves counted, and the AVERAGE of the IN serves were used to identfy our service speed.
Almost every first serve attempt, flat of course, except for the wide duece (me lefty), is hit at my fastest possible speed.
Possibly I can only serve 95 flats. I would serve about that speed on EVERY first flat serve attempt. Don't know how it would go in if I tried a slower speed...I practice at full speed only.
Now my second serve no pressure topspins might hit 70, but with pressure and tentative play, possibly closer to 60 mph.
The reason for my second sentence is that I can almost always get IN, 4 out of 7 first flat serves. Swinging slightly slower or faster has no bearing on the speed of the serves. During match play, that percentage goes down because I"m aiming for center lines and sidelines, and some serves would miss by inches or foots.

Fuji
01-19-2012, 11:28 AM
Just wondering, MrFuji.....
When you hit your 115, did it go IN?
Our day, we were given 7 serves. Only the IN serves counted, and the AVERAGE of the IN serves were used to identfy our service speed.
Almost every first serve attempt, flat of course, except for the wide duece (me lefty), is hit at my fastest possible speed.
Possibly I can only serve 95 flats. I would serve about that speed on EVERY first flat serve attempt. Don't know how it would go in if I tried a slower speed...I practice at full speed only.
Now my second serve no pressure topspins might hit 70, but with pressure and tentative play, possibly closer to 60 mph.
The reason for my second sentence is that I can almost always get IN, 4 out of 7 first flat serves. Swinging slightly slower or faster has no bearing on the speed of the serves. During match play, that percentage goes down because I"m aiming for center lines and sidelines, and some serves would miss by inches or foots.

Yup! My 115MPH was in the lines! :) The real question is, could I ever do it consistently? Gosh no. The highest I go in matches is high 90's, and even that's pushing it for my upper limit of "consistency." Low 90's are my comfort zone for competitive serving. I'm just above 60% when going for bigger match serves I would say.

-Fuji

LeeD
01-19-2012, 11:44 AM
Possibly only in my case.
My practice flat first serves are exactly the speed of my match first flat serves, with variance more based on mishits and perfect contact, as the swing and the motion is mostly exactly the same. I can swing quite a bit slower, but maybe contact more solidly, still resulting in about the same speed of first flat serves. I've never thoiught of practicing a SLOWER moving flat first serve, as what's the purpose?
I guess we both have fast spin serves, used for first serves, and slow spin serves, used for pressure second serves.

HunterST
01-19-2012, 12:25 PM
Not to pull a dozu, but I request a video for anything much over 110.

LeeD
01-19-2012, 12:38 PM
I tend to believe Fuji.
Not only is he taller than 5'11", that he plays for his high school tennis team, and meaning he's young and strong, but he seems to know lots about tennis strategy and ideas. It's kinda hard for a full grown young man to hit less than 100mph, given a first flat serve intended to solicit a weak short return or a winner attempt.
As for me, my vid has been posted. Extrapolate I was 62 at the time, and add 30% more speed.

HunterST
01-19-2012, 03:17 PM
I tend to believe Fuji.
Not only is he taller than 5'11", that he plays for his high school tennis team, and meaning he's young and strong, but he seems to know lots about tennis strategy and ideas. It's kinda hard for a full grown young man to hit less than 100mph, given a first flat serve intended to solicit a weak short return or a winner attempt.
As for me, my vid has been posted. Extrapolate I was 62 at the time, and add 30% more speed.

No offense Lee, but these kind of statements are what make me question the accuracy of people's serve speed estimates. 100 mph serve requires very good mechanics, and not many players can do it, young males or otherwise.

I have good mechanics, and my serves hit about half way up the fence off the first bounce. It's a strong serve at the 4.0 level, and it's only around 85 mph.

Rock Strongo
01-19-2012, 03:21 PM
Not to pull a dozu, but I request a video for anything much over 110.

I'll break out the camera and look for a radar and I'll give you results from me and my friend in February then!

I promise you, for a 15-year old he brings heat on serves many people here can only claim they have.

LeeD
01-19-2012, 03:24 PM
I can applaud your modest estimates on service speed.
However, I find it awfully hard to believe your first flat serve is barely faster than your fastest forehand.
I might have one of the most erratic 4.0 level forehands, but I know when I hit it right, it goes waaay faster than say.....80 mph. Heck, I've been playing singles with several different 5.0+ players, and my forehand, when it goes IN, is very effective.
Now my serves, weak as they are nowadaze, is MUCH faster than any forehand I can ever hit.
And less than 4 months ago, I threw a tennis ball, after my 4th attempt, from my baseline, over the backboard, and OVER THE NEXT courts backfence, which is taller than 15'.
Not a direct correlation, but toss distance does have some affect on service speeds.

spacediver
01-19-2012, 10:12 PM
This isn't about where the radar is placed, but about how quickly the radar picks up the ball in flight. Expensive radar guns will pick up the ball right off the racket, the boxes at the net later in flight.
The general consensus among those knowledgable in a thread several years ago came to about 5 to 10 mph. Based on that I'd say Jolly's serve was about 114 to 119 mph.

why would expensive radar guns pick the ball up earlier? Are there any reliable sources that indicate this?

dr325i
01-20-2012, 01:07 AM
why would expensive radar guns pick the ball up earlier? Are there any reliable sources that indicate this?

Exactly...
Plus, Jolly's serve is nowhere near 119. I don't even think it was 109 as claimed by the radar, though, things look slower on camera/videos.

mxmx
01-20-2012, 01:31 AM
Taller players generally have the potential to serve faster than sub 5'8" players. Longer leverage, better angle, more chances of the ball going in promotes more tries at a faster serve. Besides, it'd look silly for a tall player to run around fetching and getting like a Rochus or Cibulklova.
And usually, taller players don't change directions as well as shorter players, so they like to start the point more aggressively.

Yes...and i agree...

But my question was more wether it "appears" faster?

Personally i think it does. A serve at 100mph would appear faster when a taller player serves at that speed, than a shorter player would....due to the angle the ball comes at. You see the ball more from the side due to the angle it comes in. For example, the ball leaves the ground at a higher angle on the bounce and hits the fence higher...you do not see the ball from behind...so it appears faster seeing it from the side....

Would you guys agree on this?

mxmx
01-20-2012, 01:46 AM
I can applaud your modest estimates on service speed.
However, I find it awfully hard to believe your first flat serve is barely faster than your fastest forehand.
I might have one of the most erratic 4.0 level forehands, but I know when I hit it right, it goes waaay faster than say.....80 mph. Heck, I've been playing singles with several different 5.0+ players, and my forehand, when it goes IN, is very effective.
Now my serves, weak as they are nowadaze, is MUCH faster than any forehand I can ever hit.
And less than 4 months ago, I threw a tennis ball, after my 4th attempt, from my baseline, over the backboard, and OVER THE NEXT courts backfence, which is taller than 15'.
Not a direct correlation, but toss distance does have some affect on service speeds.

I used to be able to throw a worn tennis ball (less drag) at a estimate 229 feet or more with a accuraccy of around 10ft ...is that far or not really? I suppose the baseball players would be able to say...

J011yroger
01-20-2012, 03:24 AM
why would expensive radar guns pick the ball up earlier? Are there any reliable sources that indicate this?

There was a great article about it, when the pro radar switched over to doppler I think, that explained how the newer pro radar generated much higher/more accurate readings, than the older pro radar. I think it was in NYTimes, but I can't find it. Will look harder when I am home from work.

Heck, just watching on TV you can see differences of around 10% from tournament to tournament using their high end units.

If one wishes to think that the $139 speed trac reads just as accurate or high of a number than the thousands of dollar pro units, then I am not one to argue with them.

J

5263
01-20-2012, 04:57 AM
Exactly...
Plus, Jolly's serve is nowhere near 119. I don't even think it was 109 as claimed by the radar, though, things look slower on camera/videos.

I will personally guarantee you Jolly can break 120mph on stadium court US Open radar setup that is what the pros use. I can't speculate what he will get on your home setup. I don't know why this is so hard for some to comprehend other than placing pros on god status and NO experience with the pro radar set ups.

LeeD
01-20-2012, 12:08 PM
229' tennis ball throw would qualify you as GOAT. But you did say it was a skin ball. I"m very happy with 180' with brand new balls.
Best thrower in the professional outfield usually toss it between 270-300', seldom farther (but farther is less efficient, so discouraged on the baseball field...the bounce keeps going fast and can be handled by infielder's).
As for Jonny's serve... I"m sure he can serve into the 120's IF he can flatten out his contact and actually TRY a few. If his thought process is as current, maybe 105 max. He hits heavy topspin serves.

spacediver
01-20-2012, 12:50 PM
There was a great article about it, when the pro radar switched over to doppler I think, that explained how the newer pro radar generated much higher/more accurate readings, than the older pro radar. I think it was in NYTimes, but I can't find it. Will look harder when I am home from work.

Heck, just watching on TV you can see differences of around 10% from tournament to tournament using their high end units.

If one wishes to think that the $139 speed trac reads just as accurate or high of a number than the thousands of dollar pro units, then I am not one to argue with them.



Thanks, I'd be interested to see the article. Note, I'm not claiming that speedtrac is as reliable, I'm just curious about why people claim it's less reliable.

btw as far as i can tell, speedtrac does use doppler.

http://www.radargunsales.com/Speedtrac%20-radar-unit.html

more on radar technology here:

http://www.radarguns.com/how-radar-guns-work.html

dennis10is
01-20-2012, 12:56 PM
I will personally guarantee you Jolly can break 120mph on stadium court US Open radar setup that is what the pros use. I can't speculate what he will get on your home setup. I don't know why this is so hard for some to comprehend other than placing pros on god status and NO experience with the pro radar set ups.

Sorry, your personal guarantees are worth nothing compared to the evidence gleaned from videos. It is impossible for a 3.5 TW MAC rated player like Jolly to serve that fast.

Jolly and I practice S&V drills, with him serving and volleying. As an NTRP 1.0 I can assure you that he doesn't serve is no more effective than your typical middle aged woman 3.5 from Mid Atlantic chapter. A 1.0 like me would have trouble handling the power of a Women 3.5 in much the same way that I have trouble handling Jolly's serve.

Supperimpose Jolly's video with a video of a 5'2" 40'ish 3.5 woman serving and you'll see that they are almost identical.

LeeD
01-20-2012, 01:06 PM
Yes, we know all 40 year old 5'2" 3.5 level women serve their spin serves at their maximum speeds around the high nineties.:shock:

PrinceMoron
01-20-2012, 01:28 PM
We had a speedgun competition, just for fun, but hey, nobody likes coming last.

There was a pro with us (He beat Mark Knowles 7-5, 6-0, 6-1 just to give you an idea of level, and was 105-92 ATP). The pro could increase his speed incrementally up to 114. We all peaked at less than 98, and that was attempting unrealistic, Goran break point down the middle, what the ...k serves.

So if you can hit 95mph consistently and place the ball, you will coast against most people.

LeeD
01-20-2012, 01:35 PM
NOT saying I can serve any faster than any of the slower servers in your group...
But there is no such thing as a "Goran, go for it, show boatl, max" first serve.
EVERY first flat serve should be right near maximum speed, because that is the speed you PRACTICE at. You hit slower thru miscontacts, and maybe hitches in your motion of you're not advanced. But the intent on EVERY flat first serve should be you maximum achievable speed. My speeds vary more, because I choose to play with a 10 oz racket, so mishits show a much bigger difference in ball speed.
98 is very good, but do you guys generally have the biggest serves at your tennis courts, when every other court is accounted for?
As for the pro. Possibly he never had a big serve. Possibly he wasn't in tune or warmed up. Possibly your radar gun just indicates a lower speed.

PrinceMoron
01-20-2012, 01:36 PM
I served so fast at the O2 finals that I broke the racket.

There was a speed competition, inside a little alley with netting and scaffolding. I am 194 with a long reach, the scaffolding was a little low, and hoops, sorry about your racket. I don't think they will be letting me have another go (£2 a shot) in 2012.

LeeD
01-20-2012, 01:41 PM
Cool. You should have your picture taken at the site holding your broken racket, to paste on your tennis bag when you go to big matches.
I can't break rackets by serving anymore, as 40 years have advanced since I could serve relatively fast. So I gotta look for fence posts and long hanging doorways..:):)

HunterST
01-20-2012, 02:25 PM
I will personally guarantee you Jolly can break 120mph on stadium court US Open radar setup that is what the pros use. I can't speculate what he will get on your home setup. I don't know why this is so hard for some to comprehend other than placing pros on god status and NO experience with the pro radar set ups.

It's hard for me to believe because it sounds a bit like if people on a baseball forum were saying they could pitch in the 90s. To be fair, like you said, I don't have any experience with pro radars, so I can't be sure.

LeeD
01-20-2012, 02:35 PM
I can see your point. Most of our ideas are based on our experience.
However, there are a few of us who have really faced 130+ serves. Jonny's motion is not too far off the mark. A little more linear swing, and body movement, flatter contact, same swingspeed, more movement into the court, easy to see it can go fast.
We all agree MofP would rate right into the mid 120's. He can add speed also, the same cures at Jonny's.
And once again, the AVERAGE speed of pros first serve has almost nothing to do with his actual fastest serve speeds. You gotta throw out the slices, the tops, the pure placements, and only data their attempts at first flats.

RoddickAce
01-22-2012, 08:23 PM
That is pro radar, it should pick the ball up fairly soon after it leaves your racquet.

I would guess your 105, would be comprable to 105 on TV, it is just with the cheapo units that there is more angle error, and it picks the ball up later.

Radar has gotten much more accurate in the last 20 years, I remember when Sampras would serve big,in the early 90s it would be around 125, and now he is clocking in the 130s, same with Mac, now serving 125s on the seniors tour, and rarely over 110-115 in his prime.

J

Dang, was hoping I could pick up a few more mph's lol, but thanks.

5263
01-22-2012, 08:58 PM
It is impossible for a 3.5 TW MAC rated player like Jolly to serve that fast.

Jolly and I practice S&V drills, with him serving and volleying. As an NTRP 1.0 I can assure you that he doesn't serve is no more effective than your typical middle aged woman 3.5 from Mid Atlantic chapter. A 1.0 like me would have trouble handling the power of a Women 3.5 in much the same way that I have trouble handling Jolly's serve.

Supperimpose Jolly's video with a video of a 5'2" 40'ish 3.5 woman serving and you'll see that they are almost identical.

I read this again and believe you are being sarcastic. Sorry I missed that at first, lol.

10sLifer
01-22-2012, 09:31 PM
I'm pretty confident I'm over hundred consistantly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zM5yRBjq1c

5263
01-22-2012, 09:41 PM
I'm pretty confident I'm over hundred consistantly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zM5yRBjq1c

I'm inclined to agree.

Fuji
01-22-2012, 09:42 PM
I'm pretty confident I'm over hundred consistantly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zM5yRBjq1c

I would say so! That's a solid serve! I was honestly a bit surprised when you made contact, your toss looks so low, but in the slow mo it really wasn't.

-Fuji

10sLifer
01-22-2012, 09:46 PM
I would say so! That's a solid serve! I was honestly a bit surprised when you made contact, your toss looks so low, but in the slow mo it really wasn't.

-Fuji


Well that's because the racquet is only 18 inches from your outstretched hand. And the ball sits in the hitting zone(racquet face) 15 times longer when not falling and picking up speed from gravity. I think you will see more players going to a Rosco Tanner/Dogoplov serve.

Fuji
01-22-2012, 09:49 PM
Well that's because the racquet is only 18 inches from your outstretched hand. And the ball sits in the hitting zone(racquet face) 15 times longer when not falling and picking up speed from gravity. I think you will see more players going to a Rosco Tanner/Dogoplov serve.

That's a very interesting train of thought. My biggest problem when developing my serve, was my toss was way too low, so I ended up adjusting my toss way too high to give myself more time, but now it's at a decent height.

Your timing has to be a lot more "dead on" with the lower toss however.

-Fuji

10sLifer
01-22-2012, 09:52 PM
That's a very interesting train of thought. My biggest problem when developing my serve, was my toss was way too low, so I ended up adjusting my toss way too high to give myself more time, but now it's at a decent height.

Your timing has to be a lot more "dead on" with the lower toss however.

-Fuji

Actually since the ball is sitting there I think the timing is easier. Your timing must be different and more in synch with the whole motion however. I wonder if your contact before wasn't just too low as a result of your swing???

RoddickAce
01-22-2012, 09:55 PM
I'm pretty confident I'm over hundred consistantly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zM5yRBjq1c

That would be an understatement lol.

Fuji
01-22-2012, 09:56 PM
Actually since the ball is sitting there I think the timing is easier. Your timing must be different and more in synch with the whole motion however. I wonder if your contact before wasn't just too low as a result of your swing???

It very well could have been too low before actually! I know I did hit into the new A LOT with my old serve. Now I'm a lot more consistent, but I do hit more long on most faults. Very rarely do I hit the net on my serve these days.

-Fuji

10sLifer
01-22-2012, 09:58 PM
It very well could have been too low before actually! I know I did hit into the new A LOT with my old serve. Now I'm a lot more consistent, but I do hit more long on most faults. Very rarely do I hit the net on my serve these days.

-Fuji

If you are happy and succesfull with it then your doing great!

10sLifer
01-22-2012, 09:58 PM
That would be an understatement lol.

haha love that signature! I think I hit that shot once!

Fuji
01-22-2012, 10:00 PM
If you are happy and succesfull with it then your doing great!

Haha thanks! :D

-Fuji

10sLifer
01-22-2012, 10:02 PM
Haha thanks! :D

-Fuji

ENFP By the way! We should get along great!

Fuji
01-22-2012, 10:03 PM
ENFP By the way! We should get along great!

Oh wow! That's awesome! I love seeing what other people are! We should get along perfectly! :D

-Fuji

LeeD
01-23-2012, 10:06 AM
10's, nice serve, man. Just like the book says, start slow, wind up to blinding acceleration.

michielD
01-23-2012, 10:52 AM
Average first serve 110mph and when I really try to hit my hardest probably around the 120-125mph mark

I'll film some serves next time I go out to play

pvaudio
01-23-2012, 11:14 AM
I wouldn't consider myself a high level player. High 4.0-low 4.5 max.

The serves I got clocked at Rogers Cup, the radar was behind the net, near the back of the service box, and as I posted earlier, averaged around 102-103mph.

I know at least 3-4 guys at around my level that can hit faster serves than me.

edit:
105mph Serve at Rogers Cup:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqSi1zgBfy8 - My friends didn't record all my serves, and this was the only one I could dig up for now. I missed this one wide, but it is at 169kph or 105 mph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxE6HuFow0Y&feature=related - These are my normal serves now. I don't feel I spent extra effort to hit the 100mph serves at the Rogers Cup.
There's a lot more to be gotten from that serve. in essence, tighten up your body positioning aka make your body compact (NOT tighten your body itself). You're all spread apart making it more difficult to transfer energy through your body. One simple fix, is keep that tossing arm to the sky. How do I know this? Because your serve looks like mine used to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol9rrVCPcG8
Someone even commented on it I've just seen. This is me serving flat.

I don't serve flat anymore outside of matches as a changeup, but I can get the same pace with my current topspin serve as my old flat (a bit better now than this vid from October, but nonetheless, much more compact and concise):

http://youtu.be/5VSAX_msZVc?t=1m

I started it at 1:00 because it's a typical first serve followed by my second serve. A lot more consistent serve, more accurate, still flawed (yeah, I know there's balance issues in the vid, but that's fixed now), but overall much better.

pvaudio
01-23-2012, 11:16 AM
Average first serve 110mph and when I really try to hit my hardest probably around the 120-125mph mark

I'll film some serves next time I go out to play
I'm sure you will.

Up&comer
01-23-2012, 11:23 AM
I'm sure you will.


What? People on the Internet always tell the truth.

BobFL
01-23-2012, 11:31 AM
We are talking average serve speed here. everyone who is claiming that is over 110mph is delusional to put it mildly.

http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq355/bobfl/123-4.jpg

I believe that my avg 1st serve is in mid 90s. I can crank it up to mid 120s when I practice but that is irrelevant...

michielD
01-23-2012, 11:33 AM
Haha it's an educated guess if I compare my serve to some high ranked players I played against

pvaudio
01-23-2012, 11:33 AM
What? People on the Internet always tell the truth.Yes, that they do :)

pvaudio
01-23-2012, 11:36 AM
We are talking average serve speed here. everyone who is claiming that is over 110mph is delusional to put it mildly.

http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq355/bobfl/123-4.jpg

I believe that my avg 1st serve is in mid 90s. I can crank it up to mid 120s when I practice but that is irrelevant...I agree entirely. Averaging mid 1-teens is extraordinary for a non-professional, and fairly average for even beyond that. As an example, if you look up match stats, Federer's first serve does not see the 120s very often.

michielD
01-23-2012, 11:48 AM
that's because a fast flat serve is often not the best option when you play against someone who has a pretty decent returngame, a slightly slower serve with more angle and placing is better in my opinion

Federer can hit a much harder serve than he usually does in matches because in matchplay you have to play intelligent and don't just bash a flat serve in the box

pvaudio
01-23-2012, 11:51 AM
that's because a fast flat serve is often not the best option when you play against someone who has a pretty decent returngame, a slightly slower serve with more angle and placing is better in my opinion

Federer can hit a much harder serve than he usually does in matches because in matchplay you have to play intelligent and don't just bash a flat serve in the box
You realize the fastest he's ever served is in the mid 130s, right? He does not have a huge serve. Mardy Fish routinely serves in the 130s and isn't known mainly for his serve. Federer is one of the best servers on the tour not due to speed. It's because he puts so much action on every ball, and places it so accurately. That's why I find these serve speed threads hilarious. When Federer blows huge serving Roddick off the court when his fastest serve of the night might be Roddick's average, it's clearly not about speed. See Sampras v. Ivanisevic or Sampras v. Krajicek.

michielD
01-23-2012, 12:15 PM
I can conclude from your post that you actually agree with me that Federer's serve isn't about raw power and as you mention Federer's fastest serves go into the mid 130's, that confirms what I said in my previous post that he can hit harder than 120 but he chooses not to because variation is more important so that the returner can't get a read on your serve

I'll correct myself and state that my average first serve is about 100 mph and when I go as big as I can around 125 mph

dr325i
01-23-2012, 12:47 PM
I can conclude from your post that you actually agree with me that Federer's serve isn't about raw power and as you mention Federer's fastest serves go into the mid 130's, that confirms what I said in my previous post that he can hit harder than 120 but he chooses not to because variation is more important so that the returner can't get a read on your serve

I'll correct myself and state that my average first serve is about 100 mph and when I go as big as I can around 125 mph

Can't wait to see the video...

michielD
01-23-2012, 12:50 PM
Can't wait to see the video...

I'll try to capture some serves on camera next time, here are some groundies and volleys for starters http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=410396

LeeD
01-23-2012, 12:55 PM
AVERAGE first serve speeds mean absolutely nothing as far as how fast you can serve.
Serve 2 at 100, then toss an underhand at 40, and your average is 80. That is nowwhere near what you CAN serve.
mid, we don't doubt you can serve into the mid 120's, given your strokes. Most fit, young (under 40) players can, at your level.

BobFL
01-23-2012, 01:10 PM
I can conclude from your post that you actually agree with me that Federer's serve isn't about raw power and as you mention Federer's fastest serves go into the mid 130's, that confirms what I said in my previous post that he can hit harder than 120 but he chooses not to because variation is more important so that the returner can't get a read on your serve

I'll correct myself and state that my average first serve is about 100 mph and when I go as big as I can around 125 mph

Nice, so if we talk a bit more I am sure we could get to 90 maybe 80?

michielD
01-23-2012, 01:17 PM
Maybe if your an excellent talker you could get me to serve underhand

LeeD
01-23-2012, 01:17 PM
Maybe we should introduce the notion of "average first flat serve".

dennis10is
01-23-2012, 01:24 PM
I read this again and believe you are being sarcastic. Sorry I missed that at first, lol.

I would help if I could write a proper sentence.

WildVolley
01-23-2012, 01:30 PM
I don't quite understand the concern. I think only two people in this thread have claimed to hit over 100mph average for 1st serves. Given the number of potential players who post here, that doesn't seem like a lot of people.

michielD
01-23-2012, 01:52 PM
Because there are a lot of trolls on here and people who just don't know anything about playing tennis, because of that the people who do play at a reasonable level don't get taken seriously

WildVolley
01-23-2012, 02:01 PM
Because there are a lot of trolls on here and people who just don't know anything about playing tennis, because of that the people who do play at a reasonable level don't get taken seriously

That could be part of it. On the other hand, some of it seems to be ego on the part of people who can't hit over 100mph.

I definitely don't average over 100mph, but I can easily hit a 100mph flat serve on a good day. Hitting a tennis ball hard is much easier than throwing a baseball hard, because the racket gives you so much more leverage.

LeeD
01-23-2012, 02:34 PM
Baseball "hard"...90+ mph.
Tennis "hard" ... 130 mph, due to the extra leverage of the racket.

dennis10is
01-23-2012, 02:37 PM
Because there are a lot of trolls on here and people who just don't know anything about playing tennis, because of that the people who do play at a reasonable level don't get taken seriously

So, do you think you play at a "reasonable level", a level higher than "people who just don't know anything about playing tennis"? And Do you feel that you are taken seriously here?

Timbo's hopeless slice
01-23-2012, 02:43 PM
well, verdasco was serving 2nd serve kickers at 170 - 180 km/h yesterday at the AO,, tha is over 100 mph...

anyone know how accurate teh ATP booth thing is? I am gonn ahve a go at it, I averaged about 175km/h on a show court with a gun last year in a match, but I dunno how accurate that was, either.

Well, that was interesting! I suspect the OPTUS serve radar at the AO is a little, ahem, 'unreliable'.

I served one at 178 km/h and one at 157 km/h, which was odd 'cos I thought I hit the second one better!

However, I watched the folks after me in the line and saw a big guy with a nice action record 85 km/h followed by a 9 year old who registered, errr, 450km/h!!!

I figured mine might have been close up to that point but pretty much dismissed it after that..

So I am no closer to knowing the answer!

WildVolley
01-23-2012, 02:51 PM
Baseball "hard"...90+ mph.
Tennis "hard" ... 130 mph, due to the extra leverage of the racket.

OK, given your definitions, I believe it is definitely easier to hit 130mph serving than it is to pitch a baseball at 90mph.

For instance, I've hit 115mph on radar, but the last time I recall throwing a baseball, I was only in the high 60s.

Looking again, perhaps you're correct LeeD, that's about a 45mph difference in my serve versus pitch too.

LeeD
01-23-2012, 03:26 PM
Almost no high school pitcher's can hit more than one or two out of 10 at speeds at the lowest 90's. The one's that can, have pro aspirations and college coaches offering scholarships.
Almost no high school tennis players can serve 130, about the same ratio.
Both seem to be restricted to college level players.
Which is easier? I know baseball pitcher's who can't serve hard.
I know plenty of tennis players who throw pretty bad.

J011yroger
01-23-2012, 03:26 PM
OK, given your definitions, I believe it is definitely easier to hit 130mph serving than it is to pitch a baseball at 90mph.

For instance, I've hit 115mph on radar, but the last time I recall throwing a baseball, I was only in the high 60s.

Looking again, perhaps you're correct LeeD, that's about a 45mph difference in my serve versus pitch too.

The commonly used ratio is 1:1.5 baseball to tennis.

90mph baseball=135 tennis
60mph baseball=90 tennis

If you are about as proficient at each sport.

J

LeeD
01-23-2012, 03:27 PM
Good stuff, Jonny.
BTW, I still believe you can hit the highest 120's, with your exact motion, IF you want, if you practice it.

J011yroger
01-23-2012, 03:34 PM
Good stuff, Jonny.
BTW, I still believe you can hit the highest 120's, with your exact motion, IF you want, if you practice it.

Fastest I have clocked was 127 I think a couple of years ago. I will take out the radar again when the weather warms up.

Working on my serve a good amount this winter. Still only serving 50-75% effort. At least until spring/summer. Just don't trust it quite yet.

J

LeeD
01-23-2012, 03:39 PM
Right where I thought.
Your skeptics see only the vids you post which show match play serves, heavy top and conservative. Would be nice to see you take couple can's of balls and let it rip, like MofP showed.
That would put you there with Lawman, Ton, and several other's here.

RoddickAce
01-23-2012, 03:53 PM
haha love that signature! I think I hit that shot once!

Nice! Must have been an intimidating shot to your opponent, especially if you just shrug it off like it was nothing XD. I, on the other hand, hit a shot with a longer name..."Jumping one-handed topspin backhand drive volley short angle cross court passing shot on the run....20 feet long and into the back wall"

PS: I remember you now, from the forehand drills video you posted up a while ago.

PrinceMoron
01-24-2012, 10:42 AM
Average first serve 110mph and when I really try to hit my hardest probably around the 120-125mph mark

I'll film some serves next time I go out to play

Not related to Mich Lied I guess?

NJ1
01-24-2012, 11:40 AM
First serve is low-mid 90s at approx 60%, flat as a pancake but placed fairly well. Can muster up to c.110, though if I used that regularly I'd be at <20% so it's not really too useable. I like my game but my serving technique needs more work than I have time.

As goes tossing a baseball, taking a wild guess I'd say I'd be lucky to hit 70mph. Would be a good FB for BP.

You guys topping 120, that's some impressive stuff. Keep up the good work and hopefully I'll keep gaining.

Roddick33
01-24-2012, 09:20 PM
I'm probably 80 to 90s

michielD
01-25-2012, 05:42 AM
some serves, I'm the first one serving. We were just trying out the gopro cam on a warm-up so we were not trying to hit our fastest serves ever more like average first serve for a match

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEYVwWwRNLY

LeeD
01-25-2012, 08:16 AM
Exactly as I expected...

PrinceMoron
01-25-2012, 08:30 AM
I played a middle-aged German lady near the Dead Sea and could hardly get the ball over the net. It took a few days to acclimatise to the super low altitude, but at first I thought maybe I was ill. Then I went off to Eilat to a "Sports Hotel", where there was nobody who could play tennis, so I hit against a wall every morning. Ended up with half a tan.

Anyway, I will have to get out to the Andes with a speed gun and hit 120. It is the only way I am ever going to do it.

Fuji
01-25-2012, 06:31 PM
With the pitching analogy, I've never been much of a base ball player, but I have pitched into the mid 70s with a radar gun a few years back. No idea if I could do it now, but I had a pretty live arm in my early teens.

-Fuji

michielD
01-26-2012, 04:20 AM
Can't wait to see the video...

Nice, so if we talk a bit more I am sure we could get to 90 maybe 80?

Not related to Mich Lied I guess?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEYVwWwRNLY

I'm the first one serving

dr325i
01-27-2012, 08:58 AM
I'm the first one serving

Honestly, from the angle recorded, I cannot tell if it is 200 mph or 30 mph...

dr325i
01-27-2012, 09:01 AM
I'll try to capture some serves on camera next time, here are some groundies and volleys for starters http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=410396

very nice hitting!

ace_pace
01-29-2012, 04:38 AM
Im assuming you are americans and are measuring in miles. In that case my first serve is usually a flat 90-100. I wish my first serve percentage was that high :D

Squall Leonheart
01-29-2012, 08:38 PM
This was a few years ago, but I once had my serve clocked at a free community tennis event. The fastest one I got in was 77mph, though I don't remember exactly where they measured the speed (it was definitely closer than where a receiver would be positioned). I think my fastest spin serve was something like 57mph. Yeah, I'm a pretty terrible server.

Davis937
01-02-2014, 09:08 PM
I'm curious … based on your experience, what kind of first serve (e.g., flat, slice, topspin, topspin/slice, etc.) do most players at the 4.0 level hit, and what is the estimated speed of their first serve? Do a lot of them hit first serves over 100 mph? How about for their second serves … what kind and what's the estimated speed? Finally, what's the big difference in serving between a 4.0 and a 4.5 player? Thanks for your thoughts / comments ...

HughJars
01-03-2014, 02:37 AM
now you are saying 82.5?? you must have a radar gun or something. post the video!

Post yours, heroboy

dominikk1985
01-03-2014, 03:10 AM
the last time I got clocked I hit around 110 but that was nearly 10 years ago. I stopped playing for like 2-3 years and recently started again.

so it is probably 100-110.

the fastest players serve I faced was a guy serving 125 (we had a gun, he was in my training group when we were like 18-19). however that guy was an elite handball player (like 6"3 and 210 pounds of solid muscle). I don't think many rec players serve in that range

Ballinbob
01-03-2014, 04:34 AM
I'm a 4.5 and serve around 100-110 on first serves. Second serve is almost always a kick serve. The top 4.5 in the state here is a servebot and can hit 120-125mph but has a pretty bad ground game. Also helps that he's like 6"5

For the guy who asked: Idk what the average 4.0 serve is, it varies a lot. I will say that many 4.0's don't have a reliable kick second serve though

mightyrick
01-03-2014, 04:51 AM
At 4.0, my first serve averages about 80mph. My second serve is a top-slice that averages about 65-75mph. I have to vary the pace and placement of both serves a lot.

When I made it to 4.0, I had to abandon my kick second serve. It is too slow and sits up too much. Lots of guys at 4.0 seem to easily tee off on it.

My serve is something I intend on re-tooling in 2014. It is self-taught and I have a very unorthodox serve motion. If I don't fix it, it will cost me dearly. It already a liability at 4.0. I have to play very hard and very smart to win matches because my serve instantly puts me on the defensive

LeeD
01-03-2014, 05:20 AM
Lots of criticism here.
I'd say, for flat first serves, about 105 average. For top/slice first serves, around 85. For twist first serves, easy 65 for a high hop, maybe 70 for something that just kicks opposite the flight.
More important than pure speed is the ability to place the serves within 2' of where you want it to go.

dominikk1985
01-03-2014, 05:21 AM
the last time I got clocked I hit around 110 but that was nearly 10 years ago. I stopped playing for like 2-3 years and recently started again.

so it is probably 100-110.

the fastest players serve I faced was a guy serving 125 (we had a gun, he was in my training group when we were like 18-19). however that guy was an elite handball player (like 6"3 and 210 pounds of solid muscle). I don't think many rec players serve in that range

this is for my flat serve of course.

I'm hitting at least 50% slice serves (with a little top) for my first since I'm a lefty. I also occasionally use a kicker from the deuce side if guys are trying to cheat on my serve towards their BH. second serve is mostly slice with and occasional kicker.

anubis
01-03-2014, 05:45 AM
I'm a 3.5 and have the weakest serve of all of my 3.5 contemporaries. Two of my 3.5 friends had their average speeds clocked (I missed out on that opportunity) and theirs were 90 for first serve and 80 for 2nd. My first serve is about 60 mph and my 2nd is 50, I would say.

I get more free points off my serve though, because I can put my serves in the corners of the box, or go down the line. They have 90 mph serves right to the opponent's forehand, so its easy to block back.

arche3
01-03-2014, 07:13 AM
First most likely 85 , 2nd probably 75.
Both some type of spin serve.