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mxmx
01-13-2012, 01:07 AM
Hi there

I have a relatively good quality serve on club level. It is hard to measure the level of quality it has...but generally no one attacks my serve. They normally defend it on both the first or second. My serve is consistent, except for attacking first serves, especially the flat one. I am better with spin type serves and my kick serve is far better than my flat serves. The flaws of my game is actually taking advantage of my "good" serve. (such as first volley, decision making, putting away short ball etc.)

Anyways, enough of that...just given some background....

I have my feet static when i serve...

I will try to discribe my motion:
1) feet shoulder width apart more or less.
2) knee bend on front foot with ball bounce, back foot almost lifted
3) weight from back foot to front foot whilst i toss up, knee bend and push upward forward with both legs, but arguably more with front leg
4) contact ball with pronation
5) land on front foot


I am considering this service motion:
1) feet shoulder width apart more or less.
2) knee bend on front foot with ball bounce, back foot almost lifted
3) weight from back foot to front foot whilst i toss up, move back foot toward front foot, knee bend and push upward forward with both legs
4) contact ball with pronation
5) land on front foot

The differences I'm expecting:
1) slightly more natural reach due to narrower stance at push up point
2) more natural hip rotation
3) less stress on legs at jump point due to both legs working more equally.
4) more natural forward moving motion

Expected requirements for this change:
1) need better balance to achieve than original stance
2) need good timing on jump > more technical serve?

The reason for this post is, that i want to achieve 3 things.

1) Create a higher contact point
2) have better flat serves
3) create less stress on the legs

Please help me with the differences between these two styles...with benifits or drawbacks of each style. Any tips/experience would be appreciated.

lwood
01-13-2012, 03:23 AM
Mx, You may find the following thread helpful: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=398870

mxmx
01-13-2012, 03:57 AM
Thanks man....i read through the whole thread (not very long) and one or two comments helped...but generally there isn't much detail into the techniques of either methods.

I am hoping for some feedback from potential coaches or experienced players.

Also...maybe there are other alternatives for me to achieve my objectives than through the stance alone.

ps. I am going to check out those Rafa links you've posted

Edit: That first video link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfA3RlAXpdg) is excellent referencing toward this discussion.

mxmx
01-13-2012, 05:10 AM
I have a question on the serve in general...

Is one supposed to jump upward, or upward forward when reaching to hit the ball?
Ie, is there equal leg push, or more push on the front leg, either upward or upward forward?

charliefedererer
01-14-2012, 07:28 PM
Push off equally from both feet. (In fact for a fraction of a second you will first be pushing off slightly more/earlier with the back foot, and then finally slighlty more/longer with the front foot, but if you just concentrate on getting a good leg push from pushing off both feet equally not only will you generate more force, but you are less likely to get a leg injury from trying to launch yourself from just one leg.)

Try to launch your self almost vertically "up the mountain".
"Up the Mountain" excerpt form Serve Doctor presents: M.P.H.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs .
Nick Bollettieri-Sonic Serve. wmv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs

(In fact because you should be tossing slightly into the court on your first serve, you will also be moving forward, although your main direction is up. For most in their second serve, it is straight up.)


The benefits of the pinpoint versus the platform stance have been debated so often the most feel it is just a matter of personal preference. In this video, Jeff Salzenstein makes his pitch as to why you should not change:
Tennis Serve Stance: Why I Think You Are Better Off With A Platform Stance
http://www.jeffsalzensteintennis.com/tennis-serve-stance/

5263
01-14-2012, 09:26 PM
Your launch upward should be into the court about 10-12 degrees off of straight up.

The problem I see with moving or sliding up to pinpoint is chasing the toss. A good toss is a very big key to strong and consistent serving. From platform it seems to be easier to recognize a poor toss, but when moving up, it seems more natural to continue to move after a bad toss in my experience.
Early and easy recognition is important not to throw off the serving rhythm.

mxmx
01-16-2012, 01:28 AM
Push off equally from both feet. (In fact for a fraction of a second you will first be pushing off slightly more/earlier with the back foot, and then finally slighlty more/longer with the front foot, but if you just concentrate on getting a good leg push from pushing off both feet equally not only will you generate more force, but you are less likely to get a leg injury from trying to launch yourself from just one leg.)

Try to launch your self almost vertically "up the mountain".
"Up the Mountain" excerpt form Serve Doctor presents: M.P.H.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs .
Nick Bollettieri-Sonic Serve. wmv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs

(In fact because you should be tossing slightly into the court on your first serve, you will also be moving forward, although your main direction is up. For most in their second serve, it is straight up.)


The benefits of the pinpoint versus the platform stance have been debated so often the most feel it is just a matter of personal preference. In this video, Jeff Salzenstein makes his pitch as to why you should not change:
Tennis Serve Stance: Why I Think You Are Better Off With A Platform Stance
http://www.jeffsalzensteintennis.com/tennis-serve-stance/

and

5263 Your launch upward should be into the court about 10-12 degrees off of straight up.

The problem I see with moving or sliding up to pinpoint is chasing the toss. A good toss is a very big key to strong and consistent serving. From platform it seems to be easier to recognize a poor toss, but when moving up, it seems more natural to continue to move after a bad toss in my experience.
Early and easy recognition is important not to throw off the serving rhythm.

Thank you....you guys explained it well...

I think the fact that one rocks from the backfoot to the frontfoot momentum wise, makes it appears as if one is jumping forward...but in fact, one is jumping upward. The rocking motion + upward = looks forward.

I think this will definately help my technique and you guys have confirmed something i was told previously. This will most certainly help to relieve pressure on my front leg. I may have been jumping or pushing way too much with it as well as the land, may have caused too much stress on that leg.

I think for now, i will discard the pinpoint serve technique. It may not be necc to do this anymore, as i should rather adjust my platform technique.

Unfortunately i cannot look at those videos now due to a bad internet connection.

LeeD
01-17-2012, 12:23 PM
Pin vs Platform?
Platform is easier to STOP your forward momentum to stay back and hit groundies after you serve.
Pin sometimes takes you well into your own court, landing you in NML after hard serves. Is that good or bad?
Plat usually is more consistent, less moving parts.
Pin usually gives slightly more swingspeed, since your body is moving forwards more.
In the end, what is your acceptable percentage and can you maintain it using either/both stances?
Most players choose one over the other, the one that is a COMPROMISE between power and precision.

mxmx
01-18-2012, 12:27 AM
Pin vs Platform?
Platform is easier to STOP your forward momentum to stay back and hit groundies after you serve.
Pin sometimes takes you well into your own court, landing you in NML after hard serves. Is that good or bad?
Plat usually is more consistent, less moving parts.
Pin usually gives slightly more swingspeed, since your body is moving forwards more.
In the end, what is your acceptable percentage and can you maintain it using either/both stances?
Most players choose one over the other, the one that is a COMPROMISE between power and precision.

Yes...thank you for making me aware on some things, especially the forward movement part. I also agree on the recovery after the serve would be easier on platform than pinpoint.

I really think the research i did on this will help my serve. I really learnt a lot from you guys and i misunderstood the upward part to the serve on the platform stance. I want to practice this today.

Ash_Smith
01-19-2012, 10:56 AM
Platform is easier to STOP your forward momentum to stay back and hit groundies after you serve.
Pin sometimes takes you well into your own court, landing you in NML after hard serves. Is that good or bad?
Plat usually is more consistent, less moving parts.
Pin usually gives slightly more swingspeed, since your body is moving forwards more.
In the end, what is your acceptable percentage and can you maintain it using either/both stances?
Most players choose one over the other, the one that is a COMPROMISE between power and precision.

Lee, think you got this backwards. Pinpoint stance results in greater vertical momentum. Platform results in more forward momentum, which would likely take you further into court, no the other way around. As for pinpoint giving more racquet speed because your body is moving forward more - the body doesn't move forward more, and I'm pretty sure there are not studies which conclusively prove that pinpoint generates more racquet head speed (and I'm a technique nerd, who reads such things!)

Cheers

LeeD
01-19-2012, 11:02 AM
I will admit I'm only average on platform serves.
Pinpoint, I'm committed to landing 4' inside my own baseline once I stop forward momentum. That would equate to NML, I think.
Platform, I don't scissor kick, but only take a slow step inside my baseline, pivoting off my lead foot, stopping less than 2' inside my own baseline, which allows me to recover behind my baseline if I need it.
Not sure about pinpoint launching me upwards. I have no vertical any more, and I still land inside 4' of my own baseline after serving pinpoint. I know this because if I"m too lazy to proceed to service line, I get a return right at my feet, needing a NML low volley to even out the progress of the point.
Possibly Fed has a different style of platform, as did BrianGodfried and RaulRameriz, who platformed their way to the service line.

5263
01-19-2012, 11:32 AM
I think the fact that one rocks from the backfoot to the frontfoot momentum wise, makes it appears as if one is jumping forward...but in fact, one is jumping upward. The rocking motion + upward = looks forward.


Are you saying that he server should go straight up??