PDA

View Full Version : How to Counter this?


Roddick33
01-24-2012, 09:06 PM
I play someone who puts extreme. I mean, EXTREME topspin on his forehands, and he lobs them half the time. So imagine extreme topspin lob. Deep into the baseline.

Advice on how to consistently return this/beat it?

Thanks all.

drkplayer122
01-24-2012, 10:02 PM
The thing i would do is try and hit the ball on the rise or you can just retrieve the lob and give him a piece of his own medicine with a topspin lob battle.

Chyeaah
01-24-2012, 10:06 PM
Go watch some Nadal vs Djokovic matches.

Ducker
01-24-2012, 10:13 PM
Just brush up and top spin lob it back, its fairly easy and consistant high percentage. Chances are he will get tired of hitting like he does when you keep doing that back to him.

When im playing and someone hits something like you described I proceed to do what I described to you. You have to be against a REALLY high level player to not get away with it when done right.

Dont listen to the peeps telling you to take the ball on the rise, unless you are anything short of a pro or at least 5.5 or higher he is going to consistantly beat you because what hes doing is really easy high percentage and yours is low.

Imagine it like this. His top spin lobs are like flipping a quarter 50/50 chances, Not bad right? Well your taking on the rise is more like rolling a dice 1/6. I like his odds alot better...

Bacterio
01-24-2012, 11:17 PM
If they really are lobs then chances are they're bouncing high. I'd start hitting overheads from the baseline, if you're a halfway decent server and actually practice overheads for more than 5min during a hit session, then you shouldn't have any issue hitting them.

If the guy is just hitting more Nadal like with really good net clearance and really heavy topspin, then he's just a lot better than you from the baseline and you need to figure out a way to get him away from there.

Try and catch a few on the rise and hit them short to bring him in, or concede the baseline and step back and hit slices or just stuff that will stay low so he can't get underneath the ball as easily.

There's no sure fire way to beat any given style of play or tactic, it always comes down to what YOU can or can't do. If you can hit overheads, do that, if you can hit on the rise, do that, if you're very quick around the court, then you can give up court, move back and rally until you have an opening.

tennis_balla
01-24-2012, 11:32 PM
Hit to their backhand instead

spaceman_spiff
01-25-2012, 01:45 AM
Slice!

Slice serve, slice backhand, flat forehand. Loopy Lou's usually don't like hitting low balls. It makes it hard for them to get under the ball and get the topspin they like.

Most of the time, it takes two or three shots for Loopy Lou to get the ball up as high as he likes when starting with a low ball. The first shot shouldn't be too high for you to either slice back low or maybe even attack, so don't give him anything to work with. Take that first ball and either slice it back low or attack it and move in to the net.

ATP100
01-25-2012, 02:47 AM
Hit to their backhand instead

LOL....logic doesn't work...you know that.

rkelley
01-25-2012, 03:57 AM
I play someone who puts extreme. I mean, EXTREME topspin on his forehands, and he lobs them half the time. So imagine extreme topspin lob. Deep into the baseline.

Advice on how to consistently return this/beat it?

Thanks all.

These are slow balls I'm assuming? Then rush that net and take those babies in the air. Keep your racquet face very open because the heavy topspin will tend to drive the ball into the net off your racquet.

As tennis_balla said, hitting the backhand is another strategy.

tennis_balla
01-25-2012, 05:11 AM
LOL....logic doesn't work...you know that.

On TT it sure doesn't seem like it. Just check out all the complex replies. I mean whats the simplest and most basic strategy in tennis? Keep it away from your opponents strength. Obviously in this case his forehand is his strength, so you got 2 options.
Either hit to and work his backhand, and initiate weak replies which you can then step in and hit to both his backhand or forehand corners (to keep him honest) or find a way to neutralize forehand but from what we've been told is just a guessing game and you might as well roll a dice and decide which strategy will work best. We don't know if the OP can slice, how well he moves, if he can hit on the rise consistently and so on. So knock yourself out guys.

Power Player
01-25-2012, 05:17 AM
I hit heavy looping top to my opponent's backhand all the time until I see if they can handle it. Most guys that can handle it attack it earlier. They don't have to take it like Agassi or anything, many just push/slice it back with placement. I don't try and hit winners off it, it just keeps my opponent back and lets me try and set something up with my forehand where I can drive it to the corners.

Placement is the key more than anything.

Limpinhitter
01-25-2012, 05:33 AM
These are slow balls I'm assuming? Then rush that net and take those babies in the air. Keep your racquet face very open because the heavy topspin will tend to drive the ball into the net off your racquet.

As tennis_balla said, hitting the backhand is another strategy.

I agree that taking the ball in the air is an option. Depending on the height of the ball, you may want to smash it. BTW, I don't think spin from the opponent has a significant effect on how the ball comes off of your racquet. But, heavy topspin from the opponent would tend to cause the ball to jump "up" off of your racquet face, not down.

spaceman_spiff
01-25-2012, 05:47 AM
On TT it sure doesn't seem like it. Just check out all the complex replies. I mean whats the simplest and most basic strategy in tennis? Keep it away from your opponents strength. Obviously in this case his forehand is his strength, so you got 2 options.
Either hit to and work his backhand, and initiate weak replies which you can then step in and hit to both his backhand or forehand corners (to keep him honest) or find a way to neutralize forehand but from what we've been told is just a guessing game and you might as well roll a dice and decide which strategy will work best. We don't know if the OP can slice, how well he moves, if he can hit on the rise consistently and so on. So knock yourself out guys.

Maybe some of us give the OP credit and assume that the problem is a bit more complicated than just hitting the other way (otherwise, he would have tried that already).

I have played guys who could use their backhands to set themselves up for the loopy forehand. So, "just hit it to the backhand" isn't really a valid solution to the problem. In those cases, slicing, hitting on the rise, or coming to the net are more effective strategies, depending on your strengths and weaknesses.

rkelley
01-25-2012, 06:02 AM
I agree that taking the ball in the air is an option. Depending on the height of the ball, you may want to smash it. BTW, I don't think spin from the opponent has a significant effect on how the ball comes off of your racquet. But, heavy topspin from the opponent would tend to cause the ball to jump "up" off of your racquet face, not down.

Oops. You're correct. Topspin makes the ball jump up, not down. You might need to close the face a bit more than normal.

On the overall concept of spin and volleys, it does have an effect in my experience. I think the effect is most pronounced when the shot doesn't have much pace and the volleyer doesn't punch the ball. I have intentionally heavily sliced a ball at a net player with the intent of making them dump an easy volley into the net.

chollyred
01-25-2012, 06:03 AM
I have a buddy that hits extreme topspin. He loves for his opponent to return with topspin. I'm a flat hitter. I find that low skipping flat shots, slices, and drop shots give him fits. If we get into a lobfest, then I return his lobs in kind until one of us makes an error.

86golf
01-25-2012, 06:37 AM
I play someone who puts extreme. I mean, EXTREME topspin on his forehands, and he lobs them half the time. So imagine extreme topspin lob. Deep into the baseline.

Advice on how to consistently return this/beat it?

Thanks all.

You need to play out the rest of the point for me...are the points ending in your errors or is he getting to the net off your short replies? Obviously he isn't hitting topspin lob winners, so how do your points typically play out? You have lots of options to reply back a heavy topspin loop:
-driving slice overhead
-topspin loop back
-volley
-normal topspin groundstroke
-lob

Are you committed to moving your feet to enable yourself to use all the options you have?

tennis_balla
01-25-2012, 07:23 AM
Maybe some of us give the OP credit and assume that the problem is a bit more complicated than just hitting the other way (otherwise, he would have tried that already).

I have played guys who could use their backhands to set themselves up for the loopy forehand. So, "just hit it to the backhand" isn't really a valid solution to the problem. In those cases, slicing, hitting on the rise, or coming to the net are more effective strategies, depending on your strengths and weaknesses.

If his opponent is using his forehand to control and dictate points and beating the OP with it, then the first thing (especially with the limited amount of info we're given) the OP should do is hit to the backhand. It doesn't matter what level, from 2.5 to ATP.
If his opponents backhand is solid then he can look for alternatives or look for alternatives as well as wearing down that backhand. Tennis isn't rocket science, K.I.S.S.

EDIT:

Here's a question for you spaceman_spiff, if your opponent is serving unreal and dominating you with his serve what tactics or things would you do in order to give yourself a chance to win the match?

user92626
01-25-2012, 01:26 PM
On TT it sure doesn't seem like it. Just check out all the complex replies. I mean whats the simplest and most basic strategy in tennis? Keep it away from your opponents strength. Obviously in this case his forehand is his strength, so you got 2 options.
Either hit to and work his backhand, and initiate weak replies which you can then step in and hit to both his backhand or forehand corners (to keep him honest) or find a way to neutralize forehand but from what we've been told is just a guessing game and you might as well roll a dice and decide which strategy will work best. We don't know if the OP can slice, how well he moves, if he can hit on the rise consistently and so on. So knock yourself out guys.


Isn't this a conundrum? If it's simplest and most basic to apply, then everyone is basically playing his/her weakest shot most of the time. Then, we're back to square one, ie playing from the most incompetent position. LOL. How valid is it to advise the OP or anyone to hit their desireable shot since that requires some sort of compentency or at least fall within their strength?


I guess most if not all threads in here carry the theme that advice seekers could do all the things that are adviced and are just going through some sort of logic or memory lapses. I dunno. To me logics and comprehension is easy to get. Sport is all about execution.

tennis_balla
01-25-2012, 01:43 PM
People fail to do even the most basic things on the tennis court, then wonder and complain why they cannot win matches. Humans have a tendency to complicate things when they don't need to.

How did Nadal beat Federer these past few years? With the most basic strategy, he hit to Federer's weakness at the time...his backhand. He was so predictable, everyone including their grandma knew he would hit his next serve to Fed's backhand, yet still won.

OP asked how to counter his opponent from hitting high topspin forehands, which from what was written looks to be his strength. Hit to his backhand. Are there other ways? Sure, but why not try the simplest way first and then see what happens. Its the same as, if my opponent has an amazing forehand return but an ok backhand return would I try and hit slice, topspin and move it around on his forehand or hit the majority of my serves to his backhand?

We don't know anything about the OP's opponents game, were given limited info so its impossible to give an accurate in depth answer. Its like throwing darts in the dark, though someones bound to hit the bullseye.

fuzz nation
01-25-2012, 02:05 PM
Slice!

Slice serve, slice backhand, flat forehand. Loopy Lou's usually don't like hitting low balls. It makes it hard for them to get under the ball and get the topspin they like.

Most of the time, it takes two or three shots for Loopy Lou to get the ball up as high as he likes when starting with a low ball. The first shot shouldn't be too high for you to either slice back low or maybe even attack, so don't give him anything to work with. Take that first ball and either slice it back low or attack it and move in to the net.

I'm an all-courter, so this idea would work great for me. If an incoming ball is a high-bounding topspinner, I can take it at chest or shoulder height by pulling the racquet down through the ball and "cut" with decent depth and direction. That makes for a low skidder that an opponent who's prone to big topspin strokes won't enjoy so much.

I can also hit those shots as I'm transferring my weight forward, so even if those "bounders" aren't especially short in the court, they can open the door for a strong approach shot. If you're more comfortable with hitting a slice than with taking the ball on the rise to hit your own topspin, that can be a reasonable alternative that will save your from having to back way up.

Not that this sort of hitter is a "pusher", but those loopy strokes will also test you by attacking your patience. Look to go too aggressive too soon against a "looper" and you might spray a lot of shots and donate too many points. When you recognize that style of hitting, try to stay aware enough to avoid those sucker shots. Instead of merely reacting to those bounding toppers, keep your own agenda handy and use it when you can.

Roddick33
01-25-2012, 07:58 PM
I suck at slicing. I'll just be honest with you guys.

But I can hit flat shots very well and I can return with topspin.

I'm somewhere inbetween 4.5-5.0 player so..

Roy125
01-25-2012, 07:59 PM
Step in and do a swinging volley?
A la Sharapova?

frunk
01-25-2012, 08:02 PM
I play with a guy like that on my team. He's about 5 ft 10 and really crouches down and uses that spring upwards to launch the ball high, in addition to using a 'windshield wiper' forehand which really launches the ball. It either pushes me back, which is a bit harder to maneuver out of, but you have to get back to the base line immediately after backing up and have good stamina, OR I just take the ball really early and squat and hit like there's no tomorrow.

Roddick33
01-25-2012, 08:12 PM
I play with a guy like that on my team. He's about 5 ft 10 and really crouches down and uses that spring upwards to launch the ball high, in addition to using a 'windshield wiper' forehand which really launches the ball. It either pushes me back, which is a bit harder to maneuver out of, but you have to get back to the base line immediately after backing up and have good stamina, OR I just take the ball really early and squat and hit like there's no tomorrow.

I'm Chinese I should have no problems squatting ;)

All jokes aside, I think I need to start taking it early.

spaceman_spiff
01-26-2012, 01:50 AM
If his opponent is using his forehand to control and dictate points and beating the OP with it, then the first thing (especially with the limited amount of info we're given) the OP should do is hit to the backhand. It doesn't matter what level, from 2.5 to ATP.
If his opponents backhand is solid then he can look for alternatives or look for alternatives as well as wearing down that backhand. Tennis isn't rocket science, K.I.S.S.

Ok, let's say Loopy Lou has a solid backhand and loopy forehand.

There are two reasons people struggle with the loopy ball. First, they stand too far back, so the loopy ball is up above their shoulders when they try to return it. Second, they return the loopy ball with another loopy or high-bouncing ball, which plays right into Lou's strength and allows him get under the ball or run around his backhand to hit another loopy forehand.

Assuming Loopy Lou has a solid backhand and is already cheating over to that side (looking to run around to hit a forehand), you're not going to do much damage if you hit loopy balls that direction. The only way you can attack the backhand off a loopy ball is to hit a ball that's too fast to run around. That means hitting flat and/or on the rise.

But, rather than letting Lou hit his loopy forehand and then trying to hit it on the rise (or flat from way back behind the baseline), why not prevent him from hitting the loopy ball in the first place? If you hit slice or flat serves and groundstrokes, you'll never give Lou the height he needs to get loopy. Any attempts to get loopy from the low ball will usually lead to mediocre shots (which you can attack if you like) and more mis-hits because he can't get under the ball well.

The nice thing about this strategy is that you can hit low to either side. That way, you can target the backhand (if that's working well) or use it to turn his strength into a weakness that can be attacked by coming in to the net.

So, in the spirit of K.I.S.S., just hit low. It's not rocket science. Why do you think so many of Nadal's losses have been to flat hitters?

Chyeaah
01-26-2012, 01:54 AM
I suck at slicing. I'll just be honest with you guys.

But I can hit flat shots very well and I can return with topspin.

I'm somewhere inbetween 4.5-5.0 player so..

Your call yourself a 4.5-5.0 and you cant slice properly. You automatically drop down to a 3.5.

Has dependable strokes, including directional control and depth on both forehand and backhand sides on moderate shots, plus the ability to use lobs, overheads, approach shots and volleys with some success. Occasionally forces errors when serving and teamwork in doubles is evident. Rallies may be lost due to impatience.

If you can't slice properly you automatically drop to a 4.0. Learn to slice, Its a skill that everyone needs. If you get caught out wide you have to slice it you cant hit it flat or topspin it. You have to have a decent, dependable slice to play in the 4.0 league. Sorry, if I'm being harsh, but you learn the slice at 3.0 level, the phase where you always slice the backhand.

jdubbs
01-26-2012, 10:25 AM
Your call yourself a 4.5-5.0 and you cant slice properly. You automatically drop down to a 3.5.

If you can't slice properly you automatically drop to a 4.0. Learn to slice, Its a skill that everyone needs. If you get caught out wide you have to slice it you cant hit it flat or topspin it. You have to have a decent, dependable slice to play in the 4.0 league. Sorry, if I'm being harsh, but you learn the slice at 3.0 level, the phase where you always slice the backhand.

Wait, do you drop down to a 3.5 or a 4.0? :)

I did very well at 4.0 with only a basic slice (when a ball is just out of reach and I need one hand to get to it).

A strong serve, return, and cagey (i.e. dropshots, lobs, misdirection) are really all it takes to play at the 4.0 level.

4.5 is when the softer hitters start to really struggle, so you have to be able to hit the ball with good pace as well.

Roddick33
01-28-2012, 05:18 PM
Hmm, I might have not been clear. I hit slice poorly, but decent enough to get it over many times.

Like, poor slices compared to a 4.5-5.0 players...ugh idk how to explain it, they are not BAD slices, just relative to 5.0 players, they aren't as consistent.

Frank Silbermann
01-28-2012, 07:32 PM
Your call yourself a 4.5-5.0 and you cant slice properly. You automatically drop down to a 3.5.

Has dependable strokes, including directional control and depth on both forehand and backhand sides on moderate shots, plus the ability to use lobs, overheads, approach shots and volleys with some success. Occasionally forces errors when serving and teamwork in doubles is evident. Rallies may be lost due to impatience.

If you can't slice properly you automatically drop to a 4.0. Learn to slice, Its a skill that everyone needs. If you get caught out wide you have to slice it you cant hit it flat or topspin it. You have to have a decent, dependable slice to play in the 4.0 league. Sorry, if I'm being harsh, but you learn the slice at 3.0 level, the phase where you always slice the backhand. Borg was well into the world top-20 (high 7.0) before he began hitting any slices in matches. Even then, it was only on his backhand.

Roddick33
01-28-2012, 07:35 PM
I can slice properly dude, I said I suck to:

1) be modest
2) I slice better than any 4.0 player, but worse than most 5.0 players. I make it up in sexy groundstrokes.

papa
01-29-2012, 05:42 PM
Hit to their backhand instead

Problem is that most/if not all better players have extremely effective backhand lobs.

papa
01-29-2012, 05:49 PM
Ok, let's say Loopy Lou has a solid backhand and loopy forehand.

There are two reasons people struggle with the loopy ball. First, they stand too far back, so the loopy ball is up above their shoulders when they try to return it. Second, they return the loopy ball with another loopy or high-bouncing ball, which plays right into Lou's strength and allows him get under the ball or run around his backhand to hit another loopy forehand.

Assuming Loopy Lou has a solid backhand and is already cheating over to that side (looking to run around to hit a forehand), you're not going to do much damage if you hit loopy balls that direction. The only way you can attack the backhand off a loopy ball is to hit a ball that's too fast to run around. That means hitting flat and/or on the rise.

But, rather than letting Lou hit his loopy forehand and then trying to hit it on the rise (or flat from way back behind the baseline), why not prevent him from hitting the loopy ball in the first place? If you hit slice or flat serves and groundstrokes, you'll never give Lou the height he needs to get loopy. Any attempts to get loopy from the low ball will usually lead to mediocre shots (which you can attack if you like) and more mis-hits because he can't get under the ball well.

The nice thing about this strategy is that you can hit low to either side. That way, you can target the backhand (if that's working well) or use it to turn his strength into a weakness that can be attacked by coming in to the net.

So, in the spirit of K.I.S.S., just hit low. It's not rocket science. Why do you think so many of Nadal's losses have been to flat hitters?

Well, I don't know how far your going to get with slice serves but the slice groundstroke works if you hit effectie slice drives as suggested. Of course another approach that I would favor is keeping the ball out of their green zone/wheel house. Hitting lobs on the run, although it can be done with practice, isn't the easiest ball to hit.