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NetNinja68
01-27-2012, 09:56 AM
I just need to call something out I've been consistently noticing over the last couple years about TW's eval scoring on virtually all Babolat racquets. It seems whatever Bab racquet they test, they score through the stratosphere in virtually every category compared to great frames from Head, Wilson, Prince etc...I own a few Bab frames as well as Wilson, Head and Prince and I can tell you there is one from Head and one from Wilson that simply do virtually everything a little better than either the PD or APD! I know $$ is the name of the game and that cool paint jobs, marketing and flashy players like Nadal tend to sell a lot of frames but where do you draw the line for integrity?? The real question is, how do these skewed test scores benefit TW customers?????

Cup8489
01-27-2012, 09:57 AM
You're assuming that the TW playtester's opinions are wrong, and yours are right. That's the issue..

Just because you feel that a particular frame is better than any babolat you've played doesn't mean everyone shares that same opinion with you.

ollinger
01-27-2012, 09:58 AM
No, the real question is how would skewed test scores benefit TW? A racquet sold is a racquet sold, be it Babolat, Prince, Head.......

NetNinja68
01-27-2012, 09:59 AM
True, but is every Babolat better than every other racquet manufactured??

TexasTennisbum
01-27-2012, 09:59 AM
I've played with the Babalots, only the control oriented/unpopular Pure Storm GT seemed to have any kind of control. How do higher level players 4.5 and above play with the other Babos? Is there a control/player's racquet from them I am missing out on?

The ones I have tried are out of control for me.

Mulach
01-27-2012, 10:09 AM
No, the real question is how would skewed test scores benefit TW? A racquet sold is a racquet sold, be it Babolat, Prince, Head.......

Not necessarily. One company may offer greater discounts and/or marketing dollars if certain volume is reached. Also, TW may make greater margins on one brand vs. the other irrespective of volume for multiple reasons.

I'm not saying they are biasing their reviews. I'm just saying it may not be true to assume a racquet sold is a racquet sold.

NetNinja68
01-27-2012, 10:10 AM
No, the real question is how would skewed test scores benefit TW? A racquet sold is a racquet sold, be it Babolat, Prince, Head.......

It's basic business. Promote your hottest/best selling item. TW is not a non-profit organization. They are in business to sell racquets, the more the better. I also don't know if you are aware but Babolat dicounts their older models very little so margin is less erroded compared to that of their competitors.

jgoud
01-27-2012, 10:27 AM
bab stick (apd,pd,as and ps) are for advanced player.
Try XS or Y line.

ryushen21
01-27-2012, 10:42 AM
You also have to look at this. Babolat builds frames for the modern game. The Aero line and PD line are by far their best sellers and are definitely geared towards players who have play that kind of game. You also have to consider the play style of the testers. A lot of them like a lot of spin and a lot of power and that is exactly what Babolat frames produce. You can't fault the maker for producing what the public wants.

I agree with you, Wilson, Head and the other makers produce some great frames but here's my perspective on this. Wilson makes too many frames. There are just too many options that they have because they are trying to make everyone happy. They could probably pare everything down to the 6.1 line, Blade line and a few select others and up their profits tremendously. However, they sell a ton of racquets so they probably don't really care that they take losses on some since they sell a ton of others. Head is what I think of when I think classic style player frames. Prestige and Radical are their money makers and they have a few other that try to suit the new game.

Honestly, what do you expect the playtesters to say. "This racquet sucks!" Not gonna happen. It's a business and they have to promote things in a way that is conducive to keeping that business alive. So they might embellish some details while omitting others or be very selective in their choice of words about the products they sell. You cannot hold that against them.

Viper
01-27-2012, 10:57 AM
Well you have to take account they only review 3-4 Bab sticks every 2-3 years. They're reviewing Head, Wilson's, Prince's all year, sometimes even throw away frames that NO ONE will play with.


Also, recently, ALL rackets have been reviewing out of the stratosphere. I remember when it was amazing that the Donnay Pro One OS got a 82-83...now rackets are consistently getting 85s.

Ashanti
01-27-2012, 10:59 AM
I just need to call something out I've been consistently noticing over the last couple years about TW's eval scoring on virtually all Babolat racquets. It seems whatever Bab racquet they test, they score through the stratosphere in virtually every category compared to great frames from Head, Wilson, Prince etc...I own a few Bab frames as well as Wilson, Head and Prince and I can tell you there is one from Head and one from Wilson that simply do virtually everything a little better than either the PD or APD! I know $$ is the name of the game and that cool paint jobs, marketing and flashy players like Nadal tend to sell a lot of frames but where do you draw the line for integrity?? The real question is, how do these skewed test scores benefit TW customers?????

Really cause i see a lot of head and wilson rackets with higher scores then majority of the babolat frames

Migelowsky
01-27-2012, 11:03 AM
I donīt think this review is biased.

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/reviews/BASGT/BASGTreview.html

I like their reviews because I think they are fair.
After watching most of them I kind of know what each
play tester likes and their kind of game, so I can get
a good idea of how the racket would feel like to me.

UCSF2012
01-27-2012, 11:08 AM
The observation won't get him banned, but let's ban him anyway!

NetNinja68
01-27-2012, 11:11 AM
I donīt think this review is biased.

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/reviews/BASGT/BASGTreview.html

I like their reviews because I think they are fair.
After watching most of them I kind of know what each
play tester likes and their kind of game, so I can get
a good idea of how the racket would feel like to me.

Go figure...The AS is the poorest seller of the APD, PD, PS, AS group...

CDestroyer
01-27-2012, 11:13 AM
The reviews on the PD and APD arent that great. **** look at the review of Federers racquet. It has the highest ratings I have read on there.

I feel they do try to hype some of the lesser brands for reasons that I don't know.

NetNinja68
01-27-2012, 11:18 AM
bab stick (apd,pd,as and ps) are for advanced player.
Try XS or Y line.

For the advanced player??? You're kidding right?

TW Staff
01-27-2012, 11:24 AM
I just need to call something out I've been consistently noticing over the last couple years about TW's eval scoring on virtually all Babolat racquets. It seems whatever Bab racquet they test, they score through the stratosphere in virtually every category compared to great frames from Head, Wilson, Prince etc...I own a few Bab frames as well as Wilson, Head and Prince and I can tell you there is one from Head and one from Wilson that simply do virtually everything a little better than either the PD or APD! I know $$ is the name of the game and that cool paint jobs, marketing and flashy players like Nadal tend to sell a lot of frames but where do you draw the line for integrity?? The real question is, how do these skewed test scores benefit TW customers?????

The whole purpose of our playtesting is to give opinions that are not vendor biased. We don't push one vendor or another, but simply supply our customers with our honest opinions and information as we feel that is what they want and deserve.

Spencer, TW.

TexasTennisbum
01-27-2012, 11:32 AM
For the advanced player??? You're kidding right?

So what Babo's are "player's" racquets? I might be missing out on testing something, I did play with the Storm Tour GT for a bit, but it was too muted on my serve.

I thought, perhaps naively, that the Roddick and Aero sticks were too gimmicky up with power to be player's sticks, way out of control or too light.

ryushen21
01-27-2012, 11:36 AM
So what Babo's are "player's" racquets? I might be missing out on testing something, I did play with the Storm Tour GT for a bit, but it was too muted on my serve.

I thought, perhaps naively, that the Roddick and Aero sticks were too gimmicky up with power to be player's sticks, way out of control or too light.

The Storm line is the closest to what most players would consider a "player's frame." The PSLtd is definitely what I would call a "player's frame." I think the first thing that you really have to define for yourself is what is a "player."

subz
01-27-2012, 11:41 AM
TW play testers are just telling their personal opinion about a certain racquet. You may agree or disagree with them and this is 100% acceptable since we all are different. You do not like Babolat racquets, neither do I except for the pure storm series. But you will see a lot of players around your club that love Pure Drive etc.
Read the TW review knowing well that what is written is based on the opinion of 5 people and not some universal law.Even in their reviews they among themselves don't agree on everything.
To choose a racquet: read the racquet specs and other customer reviews and if possible do a demo and make your own mind.

sureshs
01-27-2012, 11:42 AM
PD and APD are the sales leaders in the US.

Sreeram
01-27-2012, 01:00 PM
The whole purpose of our playtesting is to give opinions that are not vendor biased. We don't push one vendor or another, but simply supply our customers with our honest opinions and information as we feel that is what they want and deserve.

Spencer, TW.

I 100% agree with it. I find the reviews very useful. For example the opinion given on the feel of the racquet, control, spin and stability etc are decently honest. They cannot obviously say this racquet is crap in this area but they say enough to give you an Idea.

For example I was looking into Dunlop 200 lite review and was looking to buy one for doubles. The review clearly said that the stock form is not that stable at Net. Which gave me a great clue based on my need.

No racquet is total crap in all areas, if there is an advantage in one then there will be Disadvantage in another.
Babolat produces decent all round racquets, some of their technologies really work like AERO which aids spin. Pure drive and APD are clearly widely appealing one for 3 to 4.5 level players. PD will fit for any style of play.

Migelowsky
01-27-2012, 01:25 PM
Go figure...The AS is the poorest seller of the APD, PD, PS, AS group...

Exactly, if you have a store don't you want to promote the item that sells the less? They could have written marvels about this racket and sell more.

user92626
01-27-2012, 01:35 PM
Exactly, if you have a store don't you want to promote the item that sells the less? They could have written marvels about this racket and sell more.

Probably not. I would stock the item less in the first place and allow it to die a natural death. Promote what sells.

000KFACTOR90000
01-27-2012, 01:48 PM
None of the playtesters choose babolat as their personal racquet of choice so that certainly says something to me.

sruckauf
01-27-2012, 02:04 PM
One may want to look at the playtesters selected for the reviews that you're testing this theory about - in this case, Babolats - among the different lines.

Is there any consistency to the people they use, and more importantly don't use, for Babolats?

jgoud
01-27-2012, 02:44 PM
Probably not. I would stock the item less in the first place and allow it to die a natural death. Promote what sells.

haha you really need to open a store :)

Overeemforehand-YYR-23
01-28-2012, 07:37 AM
Not necessarily. One company may offer greater discounts and/or marketing dollars if certain volume is reached. Also, TW may make greater margins on one brand vs. the other irrespective of volume for multiple reasons.

I'm not saying they are biasing their reviews. I'm just saying it may not be true to assume a racquet sold is a racquet sold.

It's basic business. Promote your hottest/best selling item. TW is not a non-profit organization. They are in business to sell racquets, the more the better. I also don't know if you are aware but Babolat dicounts their older models very little so margin is less erroded compared to that of their competitors.

I think it is the case, they seem to review more some brands than others, many here are brainwashed and only buy what they review.

NetNinja68
01-28-2012, 08:26 AM
I think it is the case, they seem to review more some brands than others, many here are brainwashed and only buy what they review.

Ditto. Any 4.0 + player would laugh you off the court for insisting a PD has the same level of control as a Prestige or Six.One or that a Prestige or Six.One posess the same artificial power as a PD. If you are lacking in strength buy a Bab but if you are already blessed with good strength and athleticism buy a control-oriented players frame regardless of the paintjob or uber-marketing campaign. The reality is, no matter who (I could be an ATP Pro) the opinion spawns from, some defensive little nerd will attack it and take it personally.

chay337
01-28-2012, 08:35 AM
I just need to call something out I've been consistently noticing over the last couple years about TW's eval scoring on virtually all Babolat racquets. It seems whatever Bab racquet they test, they score through the stratosphere in virtually every category compared to great frames from Head, Wilson, Prince etc...I own a few Bab frames as well as Wilson, Head and Prince and I can tell you there is one from Head and one from Wilson that simply do virtually everything a little better than either the PD or APD! I know $$ is the name of the game and that cool paint jobs, marketing and flashy players like Nadal tend to sell a lot of frames but where do you draw the line for integrity?? The real question is, how do these skewed test scores benefit TW customers?????
Care to share the models of those sticks? I'd love to try them out.

dParis
01-28-2012, 09:11 AM
No, the real question is how would skewed test scores benefit TW? A racquet sold is a racquet sold, be it Babolat, Prince, Head.......
Poor business acumen.
It's basic business. Promote your hottest/best selling item. TW is not a non-profit organization. They are in business to sell racquets, the more the better.
This is more like it.

The real question is why would TW put the brakes on one of their biggest sellers with a poor review? Trust to luck that the potential sale will drift to one of the other brands - and hopefully not purchased from a competitor, or that the uninspired buyer puts off his/her purchase indefinitely ("That new racquet isn't so great. Do I really need to switch from my current racquet? Hmmm...")? Many will still buy something from TW, but it doesn't seem like a way to optimize sales.

Teski
01-28-2012, 09:17 AM
many here are brainwashed and only buy what they review.

I love these kinds of statements. You must have access to TW's sales figures to be able to make such an informed statement. Oi!

Teski
01-28-2012, 09:18 AM
Ditto. Any 4.0 + player would laugh you off the court for insisting a PD has the same level of control as a Prestige or Six.One or that a Prestige or Six.One posess the same artificial power as a PD. If you are lacking in strength buy a Bab but if you are already blessed with good strength and athleticism buy a control-oriented players frame regardless of the paintjob or uber-marketing campaign. The reality is, no matter who (I could be an ATP Pro) the opinion spawns from, some defensive little nerd will attack it and take it personally.

Yes because Na Li, Nadal, Roddick et al are not blessed with power and good strength so they must use Babolat. LOL The most ridiculous statements come out from people when they have an aversion to a particular product.

pug
01-28-2012, 09:31 AM
Yes because Na Li, Nadal, Roddick et al are not blessed with power and good strength so they must use Babolat. LOL The most ridiculous statements come out from people when they have an aversion to a particular product.


Agreed. Tsonga looks weak and powerless that is why he has to play Babolat. Maybe one day he will be strong enough to use a players frame!

Teski
01-28-2012, 09:33 AM
Agreed. Tsonga looks weak and powerless that is why he has to play Babolat. Maybe one day he will be strong enough to use a players frame!

Oh yes! I forgot about Tsonga...yes, very weak! ;-)

Fuji
01-28-2012, 10:22 AM
Meh, I'm a pretty decent level Rec player. (I play 5.0 tournaments and 4.5 league during the year,) and Babolat has consistently built some solid rackets that I've used. The Pure Storm LTD was an amazing racket for me, and it was one of the only rackets that let me play when my elbow was complaining. I'm still using Aero Storm Cortex's, and they are exactly what I need. (They are leaded up of course, but that IS what lead is made for.)

A lot of "High" level players are using them these days. It's just the way it is. I know a few 5.0+ guys that are just using stock Pure Drive's, and they are kicking my butt LOL!

-Fuji

Bud
01-28-2012, 11:07 AM
So what Babo's are "player's" racquets? I might be missing out on testing something, I did play with the Storm Tour GT for a bit, but it was too muted on my serve.

I thought, perhaps naively, that the Roddick and Aero sticks were too gimmicky up with power to be player's sticks, way out of control or too light.

How can you judge a frame having never tried it? How many majors have been collected in the past 10-15 years by players using the PS, PD or APD? (Nadal, Clijsters, Li Na, Moya, Schiavone, Stosur, etc.)

The PDR is nearly 12 oz. stock. Many people add 10-15g of lead to their standard PD or APD to boost them to right around 12 oz. They are light enough and head-light enough to customize nicely. I liked the weight and balance of the PDR but it's simply too stiff for me, even with full gut.

tlm
01-28-2012, 11:56 AM
I've played with the Babalots, only the control oriented/unpopular Pure Storm GT seemed to have any kind of control. How do higher level players 4.5 and above play with the other Babos? Is there a control/player's racquet from them I am missing out on?

The ones I have tried are out of control for me.

I agree 100%.

Overeemforehand-YYR-23
01-29-2012, 12:26 PM
It's basic business. Promote your hottest/best selling item. TW is not a non-profit organization. They are in business to sell racquets, the more the better. I also don't know if you are aware but Babolat dicounts their older models very little so margin is less erroded compared to that of their competitors.

I was browsing through their racquet pages today and I noticed something:

-They also update Babolat/Wilson/Head pages faster than the others, you can already see Julia Goerges on Babolat's page, Azarenka on Wilson's ... bu I don't see Wawrinka nor Bernard Tomic on Yonex racquet's page, Nalbandian isn't even on Yonex page.

-Yonex EZONE Xi racquets came out earlier than Wilson and Head's and they didn't review the ones that came out first but rather Wilson and Head first.

-Also I see TW promoting TFight 320 as Tipsarevic's racquet instead 325 which is his real racquet.


This leads me to think that they do promote some brands more than others.

TexasTennisbum
01-30-2012, 10:13 AM
How can you judge a frame having never tried it? How many majors have been collected in the past 10-15 years by players using the PS, PD or APD? (Nadal, Clijsters, Li Na, Moya, Schiavone, Stosur, etc.)

The PDR is nearly 12 oz. stock. Many people add 10-15g of lead to their standard PD or APD to boost them to right around 12 oz. They are light enough and head-light enough to customize nicely. I liked the weight and balance of the PDR but it's simply too stiff for me, even with full gut.

I gave the wrong impression, I have "tested" all the Babos, when I said I've "played" with the pure storm as a main stick.

You know the pro sticks aren't retail, but sure, if customized I guess a Babo could be tamed.

InfCross
01-30-2012, 11:32 AM
The OP fails

Prestiges and PS90 have the highest TW's ratings.

My stick(PSTGT) which I've chosen after a long demo, is not even reviewed by TW, nor is PSLGT (review on youtube by Spencer only).

I didnt like PDGT nor APDGT, but a lot of ppl in my club love it, its a matter of personal preference.

Hong
01-30-2012, 06:21 PM
I just need to call something out I've been consistently noticing over the last couple years about TW's eval scoring on virtually all Babolat racquets. It seems whatever Bab racquet they test, they score through the stratosphere in virtually every category compared to great frames from Head, Wilson, Prince etc...I own a few Bab frames as well as Wilson, Head and Prince and I can tell you there is one from Head and one from Wilson that simply do virtually everything a little better than either the PD or APD! I know $$ is the name of the game and that cool paint jobs, marketing and flashy players like Nadal tend to sell a lot of frames but where do you draw the line for integrity?? The real question is, how do these skewed test scores benefit TW customers?????

Are you really that bored to troll for your own amusement? Do you go on car forums and call out Car and Driver for rating Fords high and correlating that to the amount of advertising Ford has in their magazine and point out how much better imports are? Or maybe this is more personal than that. Maybe you had your precious little ego crushed by a nerd totting a bab stick at the club when you know that in every measurable way - you were the better man. Wow, maybe you have something here... it IS kinda fun to throw baseless accusations around the interwebs!

Can you offer anything other than your own opinion as to prove bias? What about the PDR getting a score of 85 and the Prestige mid getting 86? Surely the Head is way more than 1 point better than that bab stick! Who cares if one is considered a tweener and the other is meant for a more advanced player... numbers don't lie, amirite broski?

LOL I hope you are banned for the obvious troll that you are.

recreationalplayer
01-30-2012, 08:24 PM
After trying Wilson, Donnay, Wilson again and two back to back Volklís I tried Babolat. Best decision on tennis equipment I ever made. But it isnít just my opinion that counts. I live close to Winston-Salem NC, home of Wake Forest University, and I have seen some excellent college level tennis there. I have observed that at almost all matches, if not all, one will see more players using Babolatís than any other brand. Is that an accident, do college players who depend on scholarshipís use Babolat because of the paint job, as you seem to imply, or because of improved play?

It is no accident that Babolat is now one of the most popular racquets on the market, remember, 20 years ago Babolat was only a string. My personal opinion about Wilson is that they repackage essentially the same product every year with a different paint job and a few minor variants in materials, but marketing new materials and designs is what drives the sale of racquets, but who does that more egregiously than the other is a topic for another day. I just believe it is no accident that players of all skill levels have found Babolat to be the one for them.

Ramon
01-30-2012, 08:50 PM
The reason I buy from TW when I have comparable choices elsewhere is because of their useful reviews. Have you seen the reviews from their competitors? TW's reviews are about as candid as you will find from an internet retailer.

They described early PD's as having a hollow feel. They said the AST had hot spots. They APD didn't have many negative comments, but there's a reason why it's such a big seller, and it sitll didn't score as highly as some other racquets from other manufacturers.

It must be hard to be candid when your business depends on the sales of the products you review, but I think TW does it despite the pressure they probably have to do otherwise.

Bartelby
01-30-2012, 08:56 PM
I would submit that TW reviews are good, but that over time a slight hint of reverence creeps in when it comes to lines that garner considerable prestige from sales or otherwise.

The first reviews of the pd and the apd were very good, but now they're off the charts. It's hard to believe they have become that much better.

The reality is that the reviewers know what racquets they're reviewing and that has an effect on expectations and scores.

Teski
01-30-2012, 09:35 PM
After trying Wilson, Donnay, Wilson again and two back to back Volklís I tried Babolat. Best decision on tennis equipment I ever made. But it isnít just my opinion that counts. I live close to Winston-Salem NC, home of Wake Forest University, and I have seen some excellent college level tennis there. I have observed that at almost all matches, if not all, one will see more players using Babolatís than any other brand. Is that an accident, do college players who depend on scholarshipís use Babolat because of the paint job, as you seem to imply, or because of improved play?

It is no accident that Babolat is now one of the most popular racquets on the market, remember, 20 years ago Babolat was only a string. My personal opinion about Wilson is that they repackage essentially the same product every year with a different paint job and a few minor variants in materials, but marketing new materials and designs is what drives the sale of racquets, but who does that more egregiously than the other is a topic for another day. I just believe it is no accident that players of all skill levels have found Babolat to be the one for them.

Very good response with actual facts rather than so much of the bs supposition that spread throughout this thread.

nomie
01-30-2012, 10:50 PM
I would submit that TW reviews are good, but that over time a slight hint of reverence creeps in when it comes to lines that garner considerable prestige from sales or otherwise.

The first reviews of the pd and the apd were very good, but now they're off the charts. It's hard to believe they have become that much better.

The reality is that the reviewers know what racquets they're reviewing and that has an effect on expectations and scores.

Good observations. Would be great if TW did reviews with blacked-out frames.

Chyeaah
01-30-2012, 11:00 PM
bab stick (apd,pd,as and ps) are for advanced player.
Try XS or Y line.

Your Kidding Right.

All racquets now are getting 85+.

klementine
01-30-2012, 11:17 PM
It's rather easy to 'read between the lines' in any given review. Voice inflection, choice of words, body language, etc....

klementine
01-30-2012, 11:21 PM
Good observations. Would be great if TW did reviews with blacked-out frames.


Blacked out frames would be better than blind-fold tennis. :smile: Video reviews by forum members/customers, submitted, selected and attached to the official review would be ideal as well.

treblings
01-30-2012, 11:25 PM
Are you really that bored to troll for your own amusement? Do you go on car forums and call out Car and Driver for rating Fords high and correlating that to the amount of advertising Ford has in their magazine and point out how much better imports are? Or maybe this is more personal than that. Maybe you had your precious little ego crushed by a nerd totting a bab stick at the club when you know that in every measurable way - you were the better man. Wow, maybe you have something here... it IS kinda fun to throw baseless accusations around the interwebs!

Can you offer anything other than your own opinion as to prove bias? What about the PDR getting a score of 85 and the Prestige mid getting 86? Surely the Head is way more than 1 point better than that bab stick! Who cares if one is considered a tweener and the other is meant for a more advanced player... numbers don't lie, amirite broski?

LOL I hope you are banned for the obvious troll that you are.

thatīs quite an impressive first post. calling someone a troll and hoping he is banned.

Hong
01-30-2012, 11:45 PM
Your Kidding Right.

All racquets now are getting 85+.

You're Kidding Right?

From the TW front page for the 3 promoted new product lines in 2012:

Babolat
Pure Drive 2012: 83 overall
Pure Drive 2012 Plus: No score
Pure Drive Roddick: 85 overall
Pure Drive Roddick Plus: No score
Pure Drive 107: No score
Pure Drive Lite: No score

Wilson BLX
PS 6.1 90: 86 overall
PS 6.1 95: 81 overall
PS 6.1 100: No score
Juice Pro: 81 overall
Juice 100: 79 overall
Juice 108: No score
Steam 100: 76 overall

Head Youtek Innegra
Prestige Mid: 86 overall
Prestige Midplus: 79 overall
Prestige Pro: 84 overall
Prestige S: 79 overall
Radical Midplus: 79 overall
Radical Pro: 81 overall
Radical Oversize: 80 overall

3 / 14 == All?!?!

On a sidenote, do any of you have a problem with their apparel reviews, like shoes and stuff? You may agree or disagree and I would venture that the latter is more prevalent, yet you aren't as upset over those shoes reviews... why? Is it because most people understand that a person's opinion of that shoe is unique to that person? Even if you have 2 identical people with same shoes size and weight and height, etc, they still may give different opinions of the same shoe? Are racquets different somehow?

It's one thing to criticize a racquet or even an entire brand, it certainly makes for a healthy discussion. However, to criticize TW reviews as to their integrity is completely different. Without substantiation, it's nothing more than pointing your finger and shouting "WITCH!"

Bartelby
01-30-2012, 11:48 PM
There's also a tendency, shared by the rest of the world, to talk about racquets in terms of what I personally need or want in a racquet.

The radical pro seems to be attracting criticism for being both powerful and flexible, which most are not familiar with and react negatively toward.

Bartelby
01-30-2012, 11:52 PM
Would be interesting if someone could come up with a classificatory chart for feel.

There's a way of classifying perfumes and wines, so why not racquets?

Its basically from words to describe soft and flexible to words about stiffeness and harshness, with several way stations.

Say 6 or 8 classes?

klementine
01-30-2012, 11:56 PM
............... 4+......................

Chyeaah
01-31-2012, 12:06 AM
You're Kidding Right?

From the TW front page for the 3 promoted new product lines in 2012:

Babolat
Pure Drive 2012: 83 overall
Pure Drive 2012 Plus: No score
Pure Drive Roddick: 85 overall
Pure Drive Roddick Plus: No score
Pure Drive 107: No score
Pure Drive Lite: No score

Wilson BLX
PS 6.1 90: 86 overall
PS 6.1 95: 81 overall
PS 6.1 100: No score
Juice Pro: 81 overall
Juice 100: 79 overall
Juice 108: No score
Steam 100: 76 overall

Head Youtek Innegra
Prestige Mid: 86 overall
Prestige Midplus: 79 overall
Prestige Pro: 84 overall
Prestige S: 79 overall
Radical Midplus: 79 overall
Radical Pro: 81 overall
Radical Oversize: 80 overall

3 / 14 == All?!?!

On a sidenote, do any of you have a problem with their apparel reviews, like shoes and stuff? You may agree or disagree and I would venture that the latter is more prevalent, yet you aren't as upset over those shoes reviews... why? Is it because most people understand that a person's opinion of that shoe is unique to that person? Even if you have 2 identical people with same shoes size and weight and height, etc, they still may give different opinions of the same shoe? Are racquets different somehow?

It's one thing to criticize a racquet or even an entire brand, it certainly makes for a healthy discussion. However, to criticize TW reviews as to their integrity is completely different. Without substantiation, it's nothing more than pointing your finger and shouting "WITCH!"

I have a life and I don't check every test. Stop taking things so seriously. All the NOTEWORTHY racquets.

Although I also disagree with the APD lines score although i see what they mean i just didn't experience it, the PD/PS line is alright. Strings make a difference too, they use different strings on the different racquets, maybe they didnt find the "right" string thats why some have terrible reviews.

Hong
01-31-2012, 12:43 AM
thatīs quite an impressive first post. calling someone a troll and hoping he is banned.

I was going to post something two days ago in a different thread but I didn't know posting privileges had to be approved. Been reading the racquet thread for a few weeks now in hopes to narrow down my racquet search. I played in high school. Now, many years after high school, my friend wants to pick up tennis and wanted a playing partner, so I'm here looking for a racquet that will suit my needs.

I've been around the internet enough to spot a troll statement when I see one. It always starts with some "facts" or more commonly generalizations that are linked together to create an inflammatory conclusion. Then they grab popcorn and enjoy the drama that ensues.

Generalization #1
"It seems whatever Bab racquet they test, they score through the stratosphere in virtually every category compared to great frames from Head, Wilson, Prince etc..."

"fact" #2
I own a few Bab frames as well as Wilson, Head and Prince and I can tell you there is one from Head and one from Wilson that simply do virtually everything a little better than either the PD or APD!

Inflammatory Conclusion
I know $$ is the name of the game and that cool paint jobs, marketing and flashy players like Nadal tend to sell a lot of frames but where do you draw the line for integrity?? The real question is, how do these skewed test scores benefit TW customers?????

Sprinkle on top the title of this thread (passive aggressive much?) and you've got a drama sundae and people have been taking bites for 3 pages until I called him out on it. Not what I planned as my first post but oh well. Is there a "first post policy" I missed somewhere?

treblings
01-31-2012, 12:55 AM
Is there a "first post policy" I missed somewhere?

If there is, iīve missed it myself:) good luck on your racket search

Chyeaah
01-31-2012, 01:20 AM
I was going to post something two days ago in a different thread but I didn't know posting privileges had to be approved. Been reading the racquet thread for a few weeks now in hopes to narrow down my racquet search. I played in high school. Now, many years after high school, my friend wants to pick up tennis and wanted a playing partner, so I'm here looking for a racquet that will suit my needs.

I've been around the internet enough to spot a troll statement when I see one. It always starts with some "facts" or more commonly generalizations that are linked together to create an inflammatory conclusion. Then they grab popcorn and enjoy the drama that ensues.

Generalization #1
"It seems whatever Bab racquet they test, they score through the stratosphere in virtually every category compared to great frames from Head, Wilson, Prince etc..."

"fact" #2
I own a few Bab frames as well as Wilson, Head and Prince and I can tell you there is one from Head and one from Wilson that simply do virtually everything a little better than either the PD or APD!

Inflammatory Conclusion
I know $$ is the name of the game and that cool paint jobs, marketing and flashy players like Nadal tend to sell a lot of frames but where do you draw the line for integrity?? The real question is, how do these skewed test scores benefit TW customers?????

Sprinkle on top the title of this thread (passive aggressive much?) and you've got a drama sundae and people have been taking bites for 3 pages until I called him out on it. Not what I planned as my first post but oh well. Is there a "first post policy" I missed somewhere?


I personally don't like the APD and think that it should be rated in mid 70s. But some people do like them. This is just some guy who doesn't like bab sticks.

sunof tennis
01-31-2012, 03:17 PM
The OP fails

Prestiges and PS90 have the highest TW's ratings.

My stick(PSTGT) which I've chosen after a long demo, is not even reviewed by TW, nor is PSLGT (review on youtube by Spencer only).

I didnt like PDGT nor APDGT, but a lot of ppl in my club love it, its a matter of personal preference.

Great observation. Also, the Volkl PB10 had great TW ratings.

Limpinhitter
02-02-2012, 07:01 AM
Yes because Na Li, Nadal, Roddick et al are not blessed with power and good strength so they must use Babolat. LOL The most ridiculous statements come out from people when they have an aversion to a particular product.

Hahaha! Excellent observation!

Limpinhitter
02-02-2012, 07:07 AM
The OP fails

Prestiges and PS90 have the highest TW's ratings.

My stick(PSTGT) which I've chosen after a long demo, is not even reviewed by TW, nor is PSLGT (review on youtube by Spencer only).

I didnt like PDGT nor APDGT, but a lot of ppl in my club love it, its a matter of personal preference.

Higher than this?: http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Reviews/BPDR11/BPDR11Review.html

GS
02-02-2012, 07:09 AM
I'm a 4.5 player who's tried almost all of the Babs out there. The only one I really liked was one of the Pure Controls, but they've all been discontinued for years now. Too bad.

bharat
02-02-2012, 09:07 AM
how can there be a good or bad racket in general?

a racket is good for a person and his style of play, isnt it all relative?

i would think federer's racket is awesome because of the things he has accomplished with it, but if I tried to play with it, it would feel awful

I like TW reviews in general, and my observation is that they kind of give good reviews for most of the products (they have to sell them right?), but if you watch closer, you can always read the body language and make ur own decisions

I think the reviewers give their opinions and almost always, at the end they say you should "demo" this racket and not that u have to buy it

sansaephanh
02-03-2012, 12:52 AM
Did you guys know that when you peel a banana there is something inside?

Chyeaah
02-03-2012, 01:14 AM
Wow. PDR getting so high results. Its probably because it all suits their game perfectly. Babolats are you love or you hate and these guys all love.

Hi I'm Ray
02-03-2012, 01:16 AM
For the advanced player??? You're kidding right?

Ditto. Any 4.0 + player would laugh you off the court for insisting a PD has the same level of control as a Prestige or Six.One or that a Prestige or Six.One posess the same artificial power as a PD. If you are lacking in strength buy a Bab but if you are already blessed with good strength and athleticism buy a control-oriented players frame regardless of the paintjob or uber-marketing campaign. The reality is, no matter who (I could be an ATP Pro) the opinion spawns from, some defensive little nerd will attack it and take it personally.

Its easy to spot a Babs hater. Thats what this thread and all the OP's posts are about. I don't get why ppl are so motivated to hate on things or other ppl. There are a ton of pros, tour players, and advanced college players using Babs, especially PD's which one could argue has the least amount of control. All the other manufacturers including whatever brand you use makes their own versions of the PD's and APD's but some people insist on singling out Babs for whatever personal reasons.

FYI the Prestige, 6.1's, and Volkl PB 10 Mid all have got incredible review scores, probably better than the Babs so the original post is a fail.

I've got Volkl, Wilson, Babs, Dunlop, Yonex, ranging from 90sq in to 110sq in, 10.5oz to 12.8 oz, 19mm beams to 38mm beams. They're all great.

Chyeaah
02-03-2012, 01:20 AM
Its easy to spot a Babs hater. Thats what this thread and all the OP's posts are about. I don't get why ppl are so motivated to hate on things or other ppl. There are a ton of pros, tour players, and advanced college players using Babs, especially PD's which one could argue has the least amount of control. All the other manufacturers including whatever brand you use makes their own versions of the PD's and APD's but some people insist on singling out Babs for whatever personal reasons.

FYI the Prestige, 6.1's, and Volkl PB 10 Mid all have got incredible review scores, probably better than the Babs so the original post is a fail.

I've got Volkl, Wilson, Babs, Dunlop, Yonex, ranging from 90sq in to 110sq in, 10.5oz to 12.8 oz, 19mm beams to 38mm beams. They're all great.

because at least 60% of rec players use PureDrives APD. Although I'm planning to try the 2012 PD, the only reason i hated the old one was lack of control and hollow feeling. Although the APD is a no-no for me, Ill misstime every shot.

NetNinja68
02-06-2012, 06:12 AM
I would submit that TW reviews are good, but that over time a slight hint of reverence creeps in when it comes to lines that garner considerable prestige from sales or otherwise.

The first reviews of the pd and the apd were very good, but now they're off the charts. It's hard to believe they have become that much better.

The reality is that the reviewers know what racquets they're reviewing and that has an effect on expectations and scores.

Great comment and observation! All new test racquets they recieve should be painted black and although they may have a strong suspicion as to what they are hitting with, that would provide players like myself a higher level of comfort of non-bias.

Kevo
02-06-2012, 07:17 AM
Racquet preferences are personal. I have played with Prince, PK, Yonex, Babolat, and Wilson frames. I've liked all of them. I played with the PDR for a while and it was great. Over time I've started to gravitate more towards control frames. Now at this point in my tennis life I don't think I *would want* to play with anything other than a midsize 18x20 frame. That's just my preference. When I tried the Pure Control several years ago I thought it had noticeably more power than the PDR. Except for serving I didn't care for it. Some people really love that frame, and I don't think there is any reason they shouldn't if it works for them.

It's really pretty self centered to believe that there are no good qualities to any particular tennis frame. There is way too much of this type of thinking going on in the world right now.

Teski
02-06-2012, 07:18 AM
Great comment and observation! All new test racquets they recieve should be painted black and although they may have a strong suspicion as to what they are hitting with, that would provide players like myself a higher level of comfort of non-bias.

Yes, and CNET should black out all TVs and computers; DPReview should black out every camera, etc. You guys need to relax and realize that the review are merely guides to help you along. Forget about the numbers and read what they have to say. You'll hear criticisms even in these frames that you all claim they do nothing but praise. You want the best review? Demo the stick for yourself. Nothing will beat that.

Bartelby
02-06-2012, 07:57 AM
Its easy to see how TW finances its reviews, but on dpreview I need a little enlightenment.

Teski
02-06-2012, 08:13 AM
Its easy to see how TW finances its reviews, but on dpreview I need a little enlightenment.

Does it really matter? People are complaining that the reviews are biased which just seems ridiculous. But, if you wanted to be a conspiracy theorist, then here you go. DPReview is the premier place people go to for camera reviews. They usually get cameras pretty early because they are good but they could also have issues if they ticked off the camera companies. Also, how do they make money off their reviews? You know they were bought by Amazon.com years ago and they point people to Amazon to buy cameras at the end of their reviews. Well, just like TW in the minds of the conspiracy theorists here, why would DPR tell you to go to their own site to buy a camera they say is crap?

Again, I think all of this is ridiculous, but you asked. :-)

luishcorreia
02-06-2012, 01:34 PM
Babolat makes excelent racquets. So its not a surprise for me that they get nice reviews.

For some reason a lot of rec players use babolat. Is it just because of the cool paintjob? Dont think so.

Reviews are subjective. I think with 99% certainty that TW reviews are not biased.

Americans have a big issue with the french..and anything french related ;)

CDestroyer
02-06-2012, 01:37 PM
[QUOTE=Chyeaah;6302580]Babolats lack control and have hollow feeling. /QUOTE]

I totally agree 100% :smile:

Hong
02-06-2012, 02:33 PM
Great comment and observation! All new test racquets they recieve should be painted black and although they may have a strong suspicion as to what they are hitting with, that would provide players like myself a higher level of comfort of non-bias.

Well why didn't you say so in the first place! Here's some top rated items to make you more comfortable. They didn't black out the items before testing them so you'll have to figure out which one gives you the most relief. GL on your search!

http://hemorrhoidtreatmenttruth.com/

cknobman
02-07-2012, 07:33 AM
I think the reviewers are pretty non biased to brands but more biased to a racquets specs. Of course this is only natural that a person is going to enjoy a racquet that closely matches their preferred spec vs something completely different than what they prefer.

Ive watched about every single review TW has ever done in the last 3-4 years and its very consistent.

Example: Granville consistently prefers a players spec frame that is 12+ oz and head light. Racquets outside of that spec that he reviews get lower scores than racquets in that spec regardless of brand.

Jason however does not really prefer player spec frames as much and when he reviews a racquet that gets close to 12oz or high swing weight he usually gives it a lower score because its harder for him to play with.

Point is when watching these reviews its good to have some perspective on who is giving the review, their current level, and their preferred spec.

A good tip is to scroll all the way to the bottom of the review where you can see each reviewers NTRP level and play type.

Bartelby
02-07-2012, 07:40 AM
The first person to descry a conspiracy theory is usually a fool and you're a big one.

Its an expensive business to have a large number of people devoting themselves to reviews and it costs a lot of money, so they need to make money to do them.

I didn't suggest the reviews were biased. I have only said that certain already well recommended racquets had reached even greater heights.

I think their editorial process is independent, but that their choice of things to review is undeniably influenced by who advertises with them and what sells.



Does it really matter? People are complaining that the reviews are biased which just seems ridiculous. But, if you wanted to be a conspiracy theorist, then here you go. DPReview is the premier place people go to for camera reviews. They usually get cameras pretty early because they are good but they could also have issues if they ticked off the camera companies. Also, how do they make money off their reviews? You know they were bought by Amazon.com years ago and they point people to Amazon to buy cameras at the end of their reviews. Well, just like TW in the minds of the conspiracy theorists here, why would DPR tell you to go to their own site to buy a camera they say is crap?

Again, I think all of this is ridiculous, but you asked. :-)

Teski
02-07-2012, 07:49 AM
I think the reviewers are pretty non biased to brands but more biased to a racquets specs. Of course this is only natural that a person is going to enjoy a racquet that closely matches their preferred spec vs something completely different than what they prefer.

Ive watched about every single review TW has ever done in the last 3-4 years and its very consistent.

Example: Granville consistently prefers a players spec frame that is 12+ oz and head light. Racquets outside of that spec that he reviews get lower scores than racquets in that spec regardless of brand.

Jason however does not really prefer player spec frames as much and when he reviews a racquet that gets close to 12oz or high swing weight he usually gives it a lower score because its harder for him to play with.

Point is when watching these reviews its good to have some perspective on who is giving the review, their current level, and their preferred spec.

A good tip is to scroll all the way to the bottom of the review where you can see each reviewers NTRP level and play type.

This I totally agree with! Great points and much more logical than those who think the reviewers are so biased towards brand.

Teski
02-07-2012, 07:50 AM
The first person to descry a conspiracy theory is usually a fool and you're a big one.

Its an expensive business to have a large number of people devoting themselves to reviews and it costs a lot of money, so they need to make money to do them.

I didn't suggest the reviews were biased. I have only said that certain already well recommended racquets had reached even greater heights.

I think their editorial process is independent, but that their choice of things to review is undeniably influenced by who advertises with them and what sells.

LOL. I wasn't attacking you. You asked me to elaborate so I did. If you don't like my response, oh well. I've been poking at the folks who say that the TW reviewers are so biased as to give nothing but praise to Babolat and knock other brands.

Bartelby
02-07-2012, 08:01 AM
The thing about Babolat is that although they've given them good reviews in the past the recent changes in test personnel seems to have increased their scores quite a deal.

Fashionability seems to play quite a big role, so the storm line has only ever had one review in its entire existence although maybe the pure control zylon review should count as one.

rlau
02-07-2012, 08:30 AM
Fashionability seems to play quite a big role, so the storm line has only ever had one review in its entire existence although maybe the pure control zylon review should count as one.

I agree that every new version of the Pure Drive and AeroPro Drive seems to get reviewed, while the Pure Storm line is largely ignored (apart from the pre-GT Pure Storm Tour [http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Reviews/BPSTT/BPSTTReview.html] and the PSL GT [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-329d8SN84U]), which is a pity IMHO.

michael_1265
02-07-2012, 09:18 AM
I just need to call something out I've been consistently noticing over the last couple years about TW's eval scoring on virtually all Babolat racquets. It seems whatever Bab racquet they test, they score through the stratosphere in virtually every category compared to great frames from Head, Wilson, Prince etc...I own a few Bab frames as well as Wilson, Head and Prince and I can tell you there is one from Head and one from Wilson that simply do virtually everything a little better than either the PD or APD! I know $$ is the name of the game and that cool paint jobs, marketing and flashy players like Nadal tend to sell a lot of frames but where do you draw the line for integrity?? The real question is, how do these skewed test scores benefit TW customers?????

To the OP: I understand where you are going, but it's anecdotal until you crunch the numbers. Collect all of the playtest data available, and perform a statistical analysis. Unless you are willing to do the legwork, it's just an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

Hong
02-07-2012, 08:22 PM
It's easy to run your mouth on the forum!

It's ironic when YOU say it.