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View Full Version : How to hit the sweet spot every time?


RacketFever
02-03-2012, 05:50 AM
Hey guys. I'am a 5.0 level player and i have solid and powerful Backhands, Serves and volleys/overheads. My forehand used to be the strongest part of my game, but recently i tried to change my technique. I used to hit flat, penetrating forehands with a modified eastern grip. I wanted to add topspin to the ball, so i shifted to a semi western, and tried adapting the 'Windshield Wiper Forehand' technique. I eventually messed my forehand up, and now i can't hit the ball on the center of the racket, even though i tried my old grip and old technique. Backhand and serves are still solid, and i hit the center all the time. Any suggestions and tips?

zcarzach
02-03-2012, 06:43 AM
You probably just messed your rhythm and timing up, since you would have had to change your contact point to switch to a windshield wiper forehand. I'd guess you need to hit earlier out in front of you.

I, too, got caught up in hitting the windshield wiper forehand. I didn't like it and I had the same problem you are having. One thing that helped me was to imagine that I was hitting three balls, in a line, each a few inches apart. That stopped me from whipping my hand through the shot, which caused me to frame a lot when transitioning back to my old shot. So, hit through the ball and hit it earlier, I bet you'll be right back on target.

LeeD
02-03-2012, 08:48 AM
Still gotta watch ball.
Still gotta get shoulders turned.
Still gotta hit thru "3 balls", as said.
But now you gotta hit enough balls to get used to new grip, and new grip ANGLE you are now holding the racket. Try 2 weeks of 4 days a week hitting.

GoSurfBoy
02-03-2012, 09:22 AM
I hate to say this, but at 5.0, you're no longer looking for 'the sweetspot'.

The way we train now (high level) is below center, 'pulling' the ball, and contact down low allows the face to close for more top. It's something I had to re-learn, too.

Watch Fed's and Naddy's vids. Few understand what happens at upper levels of the game (Fed's is very dramatic, and many comments are 'it's a mishit'), and most would think this is a mishit, when in fact, it's precisely what he's trying to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmmKlOFKqvE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb3smnR6NSc

Yes, they hit centered at times, too, but every ATP coach I work with grinds on me if I'm hitting "on center".

10 minutes into my first session with a former tour player and coaches/coached several top ATP/WTA players, he was on me for 'hitting in the center of the racket'.

RacketFever
02-03-2012, 09:54 AM
Hey guys, thanks for your responses. My FH was much much better today. The problem was i was using my wrist completely to generate the spin. This time, i tried using my elbow and shoulder to brush the ball, keeping my wrist in a fixed position, until after ball contact. I also did not bend my arm while hitting. I could hit the sweet spot almost every time now. The 3 ball trick also helped. A little more practice, and i will be back on my feet again!

mucat
02-03-2012, 10:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmmKlOFKqvE


No knee bend, lazy footwork.

3.0 tops.

thug the bunny
02-03-2012, 12:28 PM
OP, if you're a 5.0 you should be giving us tips on how you successfully transitioned over to a SW WW forehand.

I'm not a 5.0 and it took me about 4 months to make exactly the same change you are trying. Don't give up, IMO acquiring good TS was well worth the wait.

ho
02-03-2012, 03:45 PM
Hey guys. I'am a 5.0 level player and i have solid and powerful Backhands, Serves and volleys/overheads. My forehand used to be the strongest part of my game, but recently i tried to change my technique. I used to hit flat, penetrating forehands with a modified eastern grip. I wanted to add topspin to the ball, so i shifted to a semi western, and tried adapting the 'Windshield Wiper Forehand' technique. I eventually messed my forehand up, and now i can't hit the ball on the center of the racket, even though i tried my old grip and old technique. Backhand and serves are still solid, and i hit the center all the time. Any suggestions and tips?
5.0 should know how to do ww. even 4.0 have to master this.
you should learn in no time.

Limpinhitter
02-03-2012, 08:52 PM
Hey guys. I'am a 5.0 level player and i have solid and powerful Backhands, Serves and volleys/overheads. My forehand used to be the strongest part of my game, but recently i tried to change my technique. I used to hit flat, penetrating forehands with a modified eastern grip. I wanted to add topspin to the ball, so i shifted to a semi western, and tried adapting the 'Windshield Wiper Forehand' technique. I eventually messed my forehand up, and now i can't hit the ball on the center of the racket, even though i tried my old grip and old technique. Backhand and serves are still solid, and i hit the center all the time. Any suggestions and tips?

I made the transition from old school Eastern drive to modern WW forehand. At first I mis-hit and shanked a lot of balls. The problem was that I was still using my old school "squeeze the grip at contact," method that I had been taught many years ago. When I learned that a modern forehand requires a loose grip all the way through the swing including contact, not only was I hitting the ball cleaner, I was hitting it harder. It seems that the slight squeeze of the grip diverts the natural path of the racquet head and impairs racquet head speed.

If I were you, I would go back to the SW WW forehand and work on keeping your grip loose throughout the swing, including at contact. A side benefit is that my TE disappeared.

Hope that helps!

treblings
02-04-2012, 05:49 AM
I hate to say this, but at 5.0, you're no longer looking for 'the sweetspot'.

The way we train now (high level) is below center, 'pulling' the ball, and contact down low allows the face to close for more top. It's something I had to re-learn, too.

Watch Fed's and Naddy's vids. Few understand what happens at upper levels of the game (Fed's is very dramatic, and many comments are 'it's a mishit'), and most would think this is a mishit, when in fact, it's precisely what he's trying to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmmKlOFKqvE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb3smnR6NSc

Yes, they hit centered at times, too, but every ATP coach I work with grinds on me if I'm hitting "on center".

10 minutes into my first session with a former tour player and coaches/coached several top ATP/WTA players, he was on me for 'hitting in the center of the racket'.

could you please explain in more detail what you mean.
where do your trainer wants you to hit the ball, whatīs the theory behind it, and how can you tell when you hit it correctly?

thanks:)

tennis_balla
02-04-2012, 06:27 AM
^ Its an Oscar Wegner thing and its very debatable although its a good discussion. The video posted above shows 1 forehand and that is hardly conclusive evidence. Show a full rally or game in slow motion of top a top player and if they hit 80% of their groundies with the racket twisting like that I'll start to believe it.

arche3
02-04-2012, 07:22 AM
I hate to say this, but at 5.0, you're no longer looking for 'the sweetspot'.

The way we train now (high level) is below center, 'pulling' the ball, and contact down low allows the face to close for more top. It's something I had to re-learn, too.

Watch Fed's and Naddy's vids. Few understand what happens at upper levels of the game (Fed's is very dramatic, and many comments are 'it's a mishit'), and most would think this is a mishit, when in fact, it's precisely what he's trying to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmmKlOFKqvE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb3smnR6NSc

Yes, they hit centered at times, too, but every ATP coach I work with grinds on me if I'm hitting "on center".

10 minutes into my first session with a former tour player and coaches/coached several top ATP/WTA players, he was on me for 'hitting in the center of the racket'.

the majorioty of ATP coaches teach this? really? I am not disagreeing but how do you make yourself hit lower?

Funbun
02-04-2012, 08:44 AM
To be honest, I think that most higher level players don't give a crap about where they hit on the racquet as long as it's clean.

Most shots should feel the same, because the technique should negate the feel of the sweet spot anyway. If anything, I think shots should feel stiff and powerful.

sureshs
02-04-2012, 10:45 AM
I really shouldn't be advising a 5.0, but usage of more extreme forehand grips automatically increases the chances of hitting on the upper or lower half of the frame (with the frame horizontal), due to the more closed face. But even then, it seems that pros hit above, on or below the center when a large number of videos are examined.

TTMR
02-04-2012, 01:49 PM
No knee bend, lazy footwork.

3.0 tops.

I think you're underestimating him a bit. He'd be an upper tier 3.5 in Winnipeg.

Limpinhitter
02-04-2012, 02:03 PM
I hate to say this, but at 5.0, you're no longer looking for 'the sweetspot'.

The way we train now (high level) is below center, 'pulling' the ball, and contact down low allows the face to close for more top. It's something I had to re-learn, too.

Watch Fed's and Naddy's vids. Few understand what happens at upper levels of the game (Fed's is very dramatic, and many comments are 'it's a mishit'), and most would think this is a mishit, when in fact, it's precisely what he's trying to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmmKlOFKqvE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb3smnR6NSc

Yes, they hit centered at times, too, but every ATP coach I work with grinds on me if I'm hitting "on center".

10 minutes into my first session with a former tour player and coaches/coached several top ATP/WTA players, he was on me for 'hitting in the center of the racket'.

Fed may hit below the centerline of the racquet face, but THAT video shows a mis-hit! If it's intentional, then why doesn't he do it every time? There are legions of videos showing Fed's forehand where his racquet doesn't twist.

Personally, I'm very happy to hit dead center. If I could do it every time I'd be even happier. When I do hit below the center line and my racquet twists in my hand like that, it's not as good a result for me as when I hit "the sweet spot." YMMV!

ski racer
02-04-2012, 05:05 PM
here's the video where that forehand came from and he hits five in a row and they all look just like that... fed five mishits in a row? not a chance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESFU2IR_Dj0

Limpinhitter
02-04-2012, 06:07 PM
here's the video where that forehand came from and he hits five in a row and they all look just like that... fed five mishits in a row? not a chance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESFU2IR_Dj0

I only counted 2 of 5 where the racquet twisted in his hand. There are plenty of videos, including the one above with examples where he doesn't hit the bottom of the racquet face. If it were intentional, and beneficial, then why wouldn't he do it every time. Perhaps Fed's hitting the bottom of the racquet face explains why he seems to shank his forehands more than Djokovic or Nadal.

By comparison, here are some videos of Djokovic and Nadal, both of whom seem to be hitting better forehands than Fed lately. If hitting the bottom of the racquet face is the new standard for players and coaches, then why aren't Djokovic and Nadal doing it, every time?

Here, Djokovic hitting the "sweet spot" with no twisting of the racquet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=MMiQ97Zrl_k&NR=1

Djokovic hitting the sweet spot again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq09yHPmKh0&NR=1&feature=endscreen

More Djokovic forehands, all sweet spot, no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk1eqm_vazU

Djokovic in super slo-mo, sweet spot no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2psgKKRzcgQ&feature=endscreen&NR=1

Nadal hitting mostly "sweet spot" with 2 slight mis-hits when he was slightly out of position:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQvbT8uEGk&feature=related

Here's a Nadal/Federer comparison where both hit center face and neither have any twisting of the racquet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rl0fwXTrr8

Fed hitting the sweet spot with no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvZ7prb43Lk&feature=related

Fed in super slo-mo hitting sweet spot again, no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_6hC2qKnKw&feature=related

Again, if it's beneficial, and intentional, why wouldn't Fed do it every time?

I CALL BS ON THIS ONE!

PS:
Soderling forehand, sweet spot, no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWW3J1EpR7g

Tsonga forehands, all sweet spot, no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=_CrWFui1jW4&feature=endscreen

JohnYandell
02-04-2012, 06:33 PM
For a Tennisplayer article, I did an analysis of 300 forehands, roughly 100 each for Fed, Djok, and Nadal all filmed in high speed video where you could go frame by frame and see the ball on the strings for 2 frames.

More than a third were hit on the center line. A little less than a third were above. A little less than a third were below.

To me it's obvious that they try for the center line and make it often and miss it the rest of time to a greater or a lesser degree a little above or a little below.

The one unexpected result was that there was a tendency, especially with Djok to hit on the center line but closer out to the tip of the racket. Very few balls were hit closer to the handle by any of the three.

Limpinhitter
02-04-2012, 06:40 PM
For a Tennisplayer article, I did an analysis of 300 forehands, roughly 100 each for Fed, Djok, and Nadal all filmed in high speed video where you could go frame by frame and see the ball on the strings for 2 frames.

More than a third were hit on the center line. A little less than a third were above. A little less than a third were below.

To me it's obvious that they try for the center line and make it often and miss it the rest of time to a greater or a lesser degree a little above or a little below.

The one unexpected result was that there was a tendency, especially with Djok to hit on the center line but closer out to the tip of the racket. Very few balls were hit closer to the handle by any of the three.

Thanks for settling this issue! The whole idea of purposely hitting the bottom of the racquet face seems silly to me.

Bartelby
02-04-2012, 06:50 PM
Well, that just put paid to the idea that the modern player hits in the top third of the racquet.



For a Tennisplayer article, I did an analysis of 300 forehands, roughly 100 each for Fed, Djok, and Nadal all filmed in high speed video where you could go frame by frame and see the ball on the strings for 2 frames.

More than a third were hit on the center line. A little less than a third were above. A little less than a third were below.

To me it's obvious that they try for the center line and make it often and miss it the rest of time to a greater or a lesser degree a little above or a little below.

The one unexpected result was that there was a tendency, especially with Djok to hit on the center line but closer out to the tip of the racket. Very few balls were hit closer to the handle by any of the three.

Off The Wall
02-04-2012, 07:09 PM
Well, that just put paid to the idea that the modern player hits in the top third of the racquet.

I don't know about modern players, but I will use the top/tip of the sweet spot (end of the racquet) when attacking or very balanced. IMO, it produces more zip. I assumed that was do to the contact point being further away from me. (A bit more racquet head speed at contact pt.)

rkelley
02-04-2012, 09:13 PM
Hey guys. I'am a 5.0 level player and i have solid and powerful Backhands, Serves and volleys/overheads. My forehand used to be the strongest part of my game, but recently i tried to change my technique. I used to hit flat, penetrating forehands with a modified eastern grip. I wanted to add topspin to the ball, so i shifted to a semi western, and tried adapting the 'Windshield Wiper Forehand' technique. I eventually messed my forehand up, and now i can't hit the ball on the center of the racket, even though i tried my old grip and old technique. Backhand and serves are still solid, and i hit the center all the time. Any suggestions and tips?

I made this transition a year ago. I kept the modified E grip (I call it strong E., half way between an E and a SW) and just implemented the modern swing path. I got the idea pretty quickly, but it's taken me a long time to really get comfortable with it. Some days were great, others a struggle. There were many, many wall hours to get the prep, stance, swing path, and follow through down. At this point however my forehand is infinitely better than it ever was.

Based on a later post it sounds like you're getting it, but based on my experience don't freak if you fall back a bit again. Just keep practicing.

ace_pace
02-05-2012, 12:23 AM
I hate to say this, but at 5.0, you're no longer looking for 'the sweetspot'.

The way we train now (high level) is below center, 'pulling' the ball, and contact down low allows the face to close for more top. It's something I had to re-learn, too.

Watch Fed's and Naddy's vids. Few understand what happens at upper levels of the game (Fed's is very dramatic, and many comments are 'it's a mishit'), and most would think this is a mishit, when in fact, it's precisely what he's trying to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmmKlOFKqvE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb3smnR6NSc

Yes, they hit centered at times, too, but every ATP coach I work with grinds on me if I'm hitting "on center".

10 minutes into my first session with a former tour player and coaches/coached several top ATP/WTA players, he was on me for 'hitting in the center of the racket'.

yes this is indeed true. i remember when I thought hitting in the centre was the right thing to do and I'd spend ages trying to get my racket perfectly vertical on contact. Then I saw this http://blog.tennisspeed.com/ and now I realised how stupid I was. But yeah, really the 'sweet spot' is actually in the lower half of your racket with the racket's top edge leading the bottom edge.

If in doubt why dont you try it?

RacketFever
02-05-2012, 12:50 AM
I made this transition a year ago. I kept the modified E grip (I call it strong E., half way between an E and a SW) and just implemented the modern swing path. I got the idea pretty quickly, but it's taken me a long time to really get comfortable with it. Some days were great, others a struggle. There were many, many wall hours to get the prep, stance, swing path, and follow through down. At this point however my forehand is infinitely better than it ever was.

Based on a later post it sounds like you're getting it, but based on my experience don't freak if you fall back a bit again. Just keep practicing.

I'am getting along great with the SW grip. I prefer using a SW, rather than a modified eastern FH grip. The SW helps getting more Topspin.

RacketFever
02-05-2012, 12:52 AM
BTW Guys, Check out this video. Novak doesn't even watch the ball while hitting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq09yHPmKh0

He changed now anyway, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koADJfIQBAQ&feature=related

Lsmkenpo
02-05-2012, 01:06 AM
Fed may hit below the centerline of the racquet face, but THAT video shows a mis-hit! If it's intentional, then why doesn't he do it every time? There are legions of videos showing Fed's forehand where his racquet doesn't twist.

Personally, I'm very happy to hit dead center. If I could do it every time I'd be even happier. When I do hit below the center line and my racquet twists in my hand like that, it's not as good a result for me as when I hit "the sweet spot." YMMV!

The whole idea of purposely hitting the bottom of the racquet face seems silly to me.


The TW professor ran an experiment that may suggest the reason a top pro payer would look to hit below the sweetspot. Shots hit lower on the sweetspot can increase spin significantly, if your racquet is tuned for it. It is particularly useful on high forehands to swing through the ball but still impart a lot of spin. The height of the incoming ball may be the reason it is not done every time.
It is an interesting topic and open to interpretation, perhaps it is done intuitively, or on purpose, or just mishits. I think a lot of pro players do things they don't even know they are doing intuitively, they just see the results and subconsciously repeat the stroke if the effect is good over a lifetime of hitting millions of balls.

Over 25% more spin hitting lower on the racquet, it may be worth the risk of a few mishits, shank you very much.

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/images/location/rac_himedlow3.jpg
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/images/location/w2vLocation.jpg

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/location.php

treblings
02-05-2012, 04:44 AM
yes this is indeed true. i remember when I thought hitting in the centre was the right thing to do and I'd spend ages trying to get my racket perfectly vertical on contact. Then I saw this http://blog.tennisspeed.com/ and now I realised how stupid I was. But yeah, really the 'sweet spot' is actually in the lower half of your racket with the racket's top edge leading the bottom edge.

If in doubt why dont you try it?

you donīt just try that. weīre talking about months maybe years of concentrated training to learn/unlearn. at least for someone like me with 35 years of playing trying to hit the sweetspot.
i would never do that without being totally convinced of this technique first

Limpinhitter
02-05-2012, 05:56 AM
you donīt just try that. weīre talking about months maybe years of concentrated training to learn/unlearn. at least for someone like me with 35 years of playing trying to hit the sweetspot.
i would never do that without being totally convinced of this technique first

But it's not true. You may find a minority of Federer's and Nadal's forehands cause the racquet to twist in their hands. But, they appear to be mis-hits, not intentional. I don't see any evidence of that from the other pros. Did you see these two prior posts:

#19

For a Tennisplayer article, I did an analysis of 300 forehands, roughly 100 each for Fed, Djok, and Nadal all filmed in high speed video where you could go frame by frame and see the ball on the strings for 2 frames.

More than a third were hit on the center line. A little less than a third were above. A little less than a third were below.

To me it's obvious that they try for the center line and make it often and miss it the rest of time to a greater or a lesser degree a little above or a little below.

The one unexpected result was that there was a tendency, especially with Djok to hit on the center line but closer out to the tip of the racket. Very few balls were hit closer to the handle by any of the three.

#18

I only counted 2 of 5 where the racquet twisted in his hand. There are plenty of videos, including the one above with examples where he doesn't hit the bottom of the racquet face. If it were intentional, and beneficial, then why wouldn't he do it every time. Perhaps Fed's hitting the bottom of the racquet face explains why he seems to shank his forehands more than Djokovic or Nadal.

By comparison, here are some videos of Djokovic and Nadal, both of whom seem to be hitting better forehands than Fed lately. If hitting the bottom of the racquet face is the new standard for players and coaches, then why aren't Djokovic and Nadal doing it, every time?

Here, Djokovic hitting the "sweet spot" with no twisting of the racquet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=MMiQ97Zrl_k&NR=1

Djokovic hitting the sweet spot again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq09yHPmKh0&NR=1&feature=endscreen

More Djokovic forehands, all sweet spot, no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk1eqm_vazU

Djokovic in super slo-mo, sweet spot no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2psgKKRzcgQ&feature=endscreen&NR=1

Nadal hitting mostly "sweet spot" with 2 slight mis-hits when he was slightly out of position:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQvbT8uEGk&feature=related

Here's a Nadal/Federer comparison where both hit center face and neither have any twisting of the racquet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rl0fwXTrr8

Fed hitting the sweet spot with no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvZ7prb43Lk&feature=related

Fed in super slo-mo hitting sweet spot again, no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_6hC2qKnKw&feature=related

Again, if it's beneficial, and intentional, why wouldn't Fed do it every time?

I CALL BS ON THIS ONE!

PS:
Soderling forehand, sweet spot, no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWW3J1EpR7g

Tsonga forehands, all sweet spot, no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=_CrWFui1jW4&feature=endscreen

Limpinhitter
02-05-2012, 06:06 AM
The TW professor ran an experiment that may suggest the reason a top pro payer would look to hit below the sweetspot. Shots hit lower on the sweetspot can increase spin significantly, if your racquet is tuned for it. It is particularly useful on high forehands to swing through the ball but still impart a lot of spin. The height of the incoming ball may be the reason it is not done every time.
It is an interesting topic and open to interpretation, perhaps it is done intuitively, or on purpose, or just mishits. I think a lot of pro players do things they don't even know they are doing intuitively, they just see the results and subconsciously repeat the stroke if the effect is good over a lifetime of hitting millions of balls.

Over 25% more spin hitting lower on the racquet, it may be worth the risk of a few mishits, shank you very much.

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/images/location/rac_himedlow3.jpg
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/images/location/w2vLocation.jpg

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/location.php

The point was asserted that top players hit below the center line, and that top coaches teach students to hit below the center line. But, as John Yandell pointed out in post #19, the top pros are hitting a majority of their shots on the center line, and an equal amount above and below the center line. That tells me they're trying to hit the center, not the bottom half. My post, #18 has numerous links showing several top pros all hitting dead center in slow motion, without twisting. I also thought it was informative that neither Tennis Balla nor Ash Smith were familiar with this concept.

Having said that, your post begs the question - is more spin than can be attained by hitting the sweet spot better?

Limpinhitter
02-05-2012, 06:27 AM
Borrowed from the Oscar at Fair thread. Thanks, Toly!

You are right. In picture below green spot is Center Of Percussion - COP.
http://i40.tinypic.com/ictvdx.jpg

Lsmkenpo
02-05-2012, 09:08 AM
The point was asserted that top players hit below the center line, and that top coaches teach students to hit below the center line. But, as John Yandell pointed out in post #19, the top pros are hitting a majority of their shots on the center line, and an equal amount above and below the center line. That tells me they're trying to hit the center, not the bottom half. My post, #18 has numerous links showing several top pros all hitting dead center in slow motion, without twisting. I also thought it was informative that neither Tennis Balla nor Ash Smith were familiar with this concept.

Having said that, your post begs the question - is more spin than can be attained by hitting the sweet spot better?

Pros do not hit the ball with the same intent every shot. Of course players that hit a flatter ball hit the sweetspot more, they don't want any additional spin on their shots that is why most of these flatter ball strikers use racquets with denser string patterns and higher tensions. Soderling has his racquet setup so he hits less spin. Players like Federer and Nadal hit with considerably more spin, spin is how they get their control, not so much from their racquet setup.

Looking at slo mo video doesn't tell the complete story, you need to see the complete shot and the situation. Like I said before, the height of the incoming ball changes the shot selection and dictates whether it is feasible or not to hit lower. Low balls require a steeper wiping motion to get lift ,of course a player wont try to hit low on the stringbed on these shots, higher balls above the waist it is a completely different story. This is where a player can hit lower on the string bed and use a flatter swing plane through contact.

I don't see how some coaches unaware of the fact that hitting below the sweetspot gives more spin makes the technique invalid. I have hit below the sweetspot on high forehands for years and know firsthand it increases spin while allowing you to hit a flatter trajectory.

Go out and try it yourself and you will see you get more spin, if it is useful to you or not doesn't mean it is not feasible for other players, everyone has their own style of play and varying levels of hand eye coordination.

Personally I don't think you are giving pro level players enough credit, their hand eye coordination is amongst the best in the world in pro sports.

treblings
02-05-2012, 09:49 AM
But it's not true. You may find a minority of Federer's and Nadal's forehands cause the racquet to twist in their hands. But, they appear to be mis-hits, not intentional. I don't see any evidence of that from the other pros. Did you see these two prior posts:

yes i did, and i found them quite convincing. no reason though not to keep the discussion going. there is always the chance to learn something even if you donīt agree:)

Limpinhitter
02-05-2012, 10:18 AM
Pros do not hit the ball with the same intent every shot. Of course players that hit a flatter ball hit the sweetspot more, they don't want any additional spin on their shots that is why most of these flatter ball strikers use racquets with denser string patterns and higher tensions. Soderling has his racquet setup so he hits less spin. Players like Federer and Nadal hit with considerably more spin, spin is how they get their control, not so much from their racquet setup.

Looking at slo mo video doesn't tell the complete story, you need to see the complete shot and the situation. Like I said before, the height of the incoming ball changes the shot selection and dictates whether it is feasible or not to hit lower. Low balls require a steeper wiping motion to get lift ,of course a player wont try to hit low on the stringbed on these shots, higher balls above the waist it is a completely different story. This is where a player can hit lower on the string bed and use a flatter swing plane through contact.

I don't see how some coaches unaware of the fact that hitting below the sweetspot gives more spin makes the technique invalid. I have hit below the sweetspot on high forehands for years and know firsthand it increases spin while allowing you to hit a flatter trajectory.

Go out and try it yourself and you will see you get more spin, if it is useful to you or not doesn't mean it is not feasible for other players, everyone has their own style of play and varying levels of hand eye coordination.

Personally I don't think you are giving pro level players enough credit, their hand eye coordination is amongst the best in the world in pro sports.

Your arguments, express and implied, do not withstand scrutiny. John Yandell has established that Federer and others hit above, below and dead on the centerline of their racquets almost equally. If Federer was hitting these different spots of his racquet purposely, then it would seem that he would have the ability to NEVER shank the ball, which we all know he does, even when he's not particularly stressed or out of position.

I think I am giving pro players the exact amount of credit that is due.

Limpinhitter
02-05-2012, 10:23 AM
yes i did, and i found them quite convincing. no reason though not to keep the discussion going. there is always the chance to learn something even if you donīt agree:)

I'm always looking to learn something new. But, I think the premise of intentionally mis-hitting a tennis ball to create, yet, more spin, in terms of both the ability to consistently mis-hit to the exact degree needed, and the benefit of doing so, is so obviously false that it doesn't warrant further consideration. JMHO! YMMV!

treblings
02-05-2012, 10:27 AM
I'm always looking to learn something new. But, I think the premise of intentionally mis-hitting a tennis ball to create, yet, more spin, in terms of both the ability to consistently mis-hit to the exact degree needed, and the benefit of doing so, is so obviously false that it doesn't warrant further consideration. JMHO! YMMV!

we agree on this, but i would like the poster gosurfboy to elaborate on how his coaches train him on this new method:)

ho
02-05-2012, 11:07 AM
Go out and try it yourself and you will see you get more spin,
Absolutely right, since you hit below center, racket face buckle on the top, you kind of roll racket a little. You can produce that kind of rolling by putting a lead tape at the lower part off the racket (3 o'clock) it will be naturally unbalance and produce spin. However, if you turn it around, you get in trouble.
Beside, Hitting below the center to produce spin is hard to do, compare with many other ways that we learn.

Lsmkenpo
02-05-2012, 07:36 PM
I'm always looking to learn something new. But, I think the premise of intentionally mis-hitting a tennis ball to create, yet, more spin, in terms of both the ability to consistently mis-hit to the exact degree needed, and the benefit of doing so, is so obviously false that it doesn't warrant further consideration. JMHO! YMMV!

Yes, kind of like 40 years ago when coaches thought any grip other than continental was useless, who would want to risk an extreme grip for more spin. :)

Just because you don't see a benefit doesn't make it obviously false, if it doesn't benefit your game that is fine, but it is a proven scientific fact and there are players who would like 25% more spin on shots.

Lsmkenpo
02-05-2012, 07:41 PM
Your arguments, express and implied, do not withstand scrutiny. John Yandell has established that Federer and others hit above, below and dead on the centerline of their racquets almost equally. If Federer was hitting these different spots of his racquet purposely, then it would seem that he would have the ability to NEVER shank the ball, which we all know he does, even when he's not particularly stressed or out of position.

I think I am giving pro players the exact amount of credit that is due.

I have actually discussed this exact topic with John on this forum before, quit implying things from John's work that he himself doesn't substantiate. John stated he does not know whether or not pros try to hit outside the sweet spot on purpose for certain shots.

Limpinhitter
02-05-2012, 08:30 PM
I have actually discussed this exact topic with John on this forum before, quit implying things from John's work that he himself doesn't substantiate. John stated he does not know whether or not pros try to hit outside the sweet spot on purpose for certain shots.

You have? Did you see post #19 in this thread? I didn't imply anything. I repeated John Yandell's express conclusion about his own work.

For a Tennisplayer article, I did an analysis of 300 forehands, roughly 100 each for Fed, Djok, and Nadal all filmed in high speed video where you could go frame by frame and see the ball on the strings for 2 frames.

More than a third were hit on the center line. A little less than a third were above. A little less than a third were below.

To me it's obvious that they try for the center line and make it often and miss it the rest of time to a greater or a lesser degree a little above or a little below.

The one unexpected result was that there was a tendency, especially with Djok to hit on the center line but closer out to the tip of the racket. Very few balls were hit closer to the handle by any of the three.

Limpinhitter
02-05-2012, 08:40 PM
Yes, kind of like 40 years ago when coaches thought any grip other than continental was useless, who would want to risk an extreme grip for more spin. :)

Just because you don't see a benefit doesn't make it obviously false, if it doesn't benefit your game that is fine, but it is a proven scientific fact and there are players who would like 25% more spin on shots.

Really? I have been playing tennis for more than 40 years. I never heard or read of a single coach who said that.

Stop misrepresenting my posts. That's not what I said.

Please site your source for your putative "proven scientific fact" that hitting with more spin than the pros are hitting now is beneficial. You might even be good enough to post a link to your source.

treblings
02-05-2012, 10:14 PM
Absolutely right, since you hit below center, racket face buckle on the top, you kind of roll racket a little. You can produce that kind of rolling by putting a lead tape at the lower part off the racket (3 o'clock) it will be naturally unbalance and produce spin. However, if you turn it around, you get in trouble.
Beside, Hitting below the center to produce spin is hard to do, compare with many other ways that we learn.

if i put extra lead at 3 oīclock what would be the effect on my serve?

Lsmkenpo
02-05-2012, 10:37 PM
Really? I have been playing tennis for more than 40 years. I never heard or read of a single coach who said that.

That's not what I said.

Please site your source for your putative "proven scientific fact" that hitting with more spin than the pros are hitting now is beneficial. You might even be good enough to post a link to your source.

Stop misrepresenting my posts. I showed the scientific fact that hitting lower on the stringbed resulted in an increase in spin. I will delve into your misinterpretation further below just out of humour, knowing it will not open your stubbornly closed eyes.

Here is what I think, I think you are an old player who is very cynical about something because you can not do it yourself, so in your mind there is no way any modern player could actually do something which you think is so extremely difficult as hitting a little below the sweet spot on purpose on certain shots given the circumstance. :) Christ, you must view baseball players as gods, they can hit a tennis sized ball with a bat smaller than the sweetspot of a tennis racquet traveling at higher speeds and can hit line drives, grounders or drive the ball up and deep at will if you gave them pitches traveling as slow as tennis shots do. Pitches traveling at 60-70 mph(tennis ball speeds) would be laughed at.


Now to answer your question it shouldn't require a link, how about some commonsense and knowledge of the modern game. If you haven't noticed hitting with more spin is kind of in nowadays, you see courts are slower and baseline play has become the dominant style on tour.

The two most dominant players of this decade happen to both hit with considerably more spin than the dominant players of the previous decade. Furthermore have you heard of this new-fangled stroke called the windshield wiper forehand? Most pros now use it almost exclusively.
It allows players to hit with more spin on their forehands while using the modern open stance footwork. Spin equals control in the modern game,
it allows a player to hit sharper angles into the court pretty much a prerequisite to hit winners by players on slower surfaces nowadays unless you are one of the handful of players in the entire world that can hit 90+ mph forehands consistently at will.

There was also this new advancement in string technology called poly, which allows a player to swing harder and produce more spin for control. Pretty much every player on tour uses it nowadays, why do you think that is?

So you see a skilled player may look to hit below the sweet spot on certain shots on purpose for more spin accordingly. The game evolves new techniques are put to use accordingly, adapt or fall behind.

JohnYandell
02-06-2012, 12:19 AM
Just to clarify, I wish I could say I could read the minds of top players to verify their intent. If the mood is right I might ask a couple of them at Indian Wells press conferences if they are aware of hitting different spots on the string bed and what they think the effects are, though, interestingly, this type of technical inquiry normally brings responses such as "I have no idea." and "Why are you asking me stupid questions?"

What our sample showed was where the ball hit the strings. Now if the players are mainly hitting on the center line, I am going to go with the conclusion that at some level that's what they are trying for--that's my opinion. Similarly, if they hit on the center line closer to the tip I am also going to assume they figured out something they like about that effect--whether what they do is actually conscious or not in either case...

Lindsey's experiment about increased spin is really interesting and I am going to write him about it.

But note the experimental conditions: the racket is not moving and the ball is coming in with heavy underspin.
It might be true that the topspin would increase in realistic conditions as well, but not sure this experiment shows that. What would be nice would be to see the racket moving at 60mph on a 30 degree incline, and also slightly right to left and throw in some wiper as well. Little harder to simulate in the lab I am pretty sure.

Finally about the "roll." If the lower contact is producing more spin, it's not due to "rolling the racket over the ball." Remember the impact is 4 milliseconds. It's clear in the 500 frame/sec footage that that tilt is a consequence of the hit, and actually it starts when the ball has left the strings. Again, not to say that the idea or the image of doing this--as with the closed face--isn't helpful for some players.

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 06:23 AM
Stop misrepresenting my posts. I showed the scientific fact that hitting lower on the stringbed resulted in an increase in spin. I will delve into your misinterpretation further below just out of humour, knowing it will not open your stubbornly closed eyes.

Here is what I think, I think you are an old player who is very cynical about something because you can not do it yourself, so in your mind there is no way any modern player could actually do something which you think is so extremely difficult as hitting a little below the sweet spot on purpose on certain shots given the circumstance. :) Christ, you must view baseball players as gods, they can hit a tennis sized ball with a bat smaller than the sweetspot of a tennis racquet traveling at higher speeds and can hit line drives, grounders or drive the ball up and deep at will if you gave them pitches traveling as slow as tennis shots do. Pitches traveling at 60-70 mph(tennis ball speeds) would be laughed at.


Now to answer your question it shouldn't require a link, how about some commonsense and knowledge of the modern game. If you haven't noticed hitting with more spin is kind of in nowadays, you see courts are slower and baseline play has become the dominant style on tour.

The two most dominant players of this decade happen to both hit with considerably more spin than the dominant players of the previous decade. Furthermore have you heard of this new-fangled stroke called the windshield wiper forehand? Most pros now use it almost exclusively.
It allows players to hit with more spin on their forehands while using the modern open stance footwork. Spin equals control in the modern game,
it allows a player to hit sharper angles into the court pretty much a prerequisite to hit winners by players on slower surfaces nowadays unless you are one of the handful of players in the entire world that can hit 90+ mph forehands consistently at will.

There was also this new advancement in string technology called poly, which allows a player to swing harder and produce more spin for control. Pretty much every player on tour uses it nowadays, why do you think that is?

So you see a skilled player may look to hit below the sweet spot on certain shots on purpose for more spin accordingly. The game evolves new techniques are put to use accordingly, adapt or fall behind.

There is no competent scientific evidence that mis-hitting a tennis ball adds spin or improves shot production. The fact that you have blindly bought into such a facially ridiculous premise is more a reflection of you than of the premise.

As is typical of the less informed, you know absolutely nothing about me, but, proceed upon inapposite, manufactured premises about me to support a ridiculous argument. I suppose I am an older player compared to the typical, pimple faced, mouth breathing know-it-all that inhabits the forums on TT. Funny how those with the least knowledge and experience seem have the strongest held opinions.

Conversely, being older, wiser, and having evolved from Continental, to Eastern to modern SW strokes over a time that I suspect predates your existence, I feel uniquely qualified to comment about the benefits and detriments of all three styles of play. And I am confident that intentionally mis-hitting the ball has nothing to do with modern tennis stroke production. Even if contact below the center-line of the racquet face did add spin, I dispute that it can intentionally be done consistently, and/or effectively. In any event, John Yandell's data establishes that there is no such intent.

mikeler
02-06-2012, 06:38 AM
There is no competent scientific evidence that mis-hitting a tennis ball adds spin or improves shot production. The fact that you have blindly bought into such a facially ridiculous premise is more a reflection of you than of the premise.

As is typical of the less informed, you know absolutely nothing about me, but, proceed upon inapposite, manufactured premises about me to support a ridiculous argument. I suppose I am an older player compared to the typical, pimple faced, mouth breathing know-it-all that inhabits the forums on TT. Funny how those with the least knowledge and experience seem have the strongest held opinions.

Conversely, being older, wiser, and having evolved from Continental, to Eastern to modern SW strokes over a time that I suspect predates your existence, I feel uniquely qualified to comment about the benefits and detriments of all three styles of play. And I am confident that intentionally mis-hitting the ball has nothing to do with modern tennis stroke production. Even if contact below the center-line of the racquet face did add spin, I dispute that it can intentionally be done consistently, and/or effectively. In any event, John Yandell's data establishes that there is no such intent.


Tell us how you really feel.

thug the bunny
02-06-2012, 06:44 AM
I also call BS on anyone being able consistently hit a certain spot on their racket to within +/- 0.5 inches.

arche3
02-06-2012, 06:50 AM
Funny how those with the least knowledge and experience seem have the strongest held opinions.



^^^^^^Am I the only one that thinks this is funny?

maggmaster
02-06-2012, 07:06 AM
http://xkcd.com/386/

tlm
02-06-2012, 07:11 AM
I don't know if the pro players are trying to hit off center, but i do know that after watching a lot of slow motion forehands that this happens very often and it is not a miss hit.

tlm
02-06-2012, 07:40 AM
I only counted 2 of 5 where the racquet twisted in his hand. There are plenty of videos, including the one above with examples where he doesn't hit the bottom of the racquet face. If it were intentional, and beneficial, then why wouldn't he do it every time. Perhaps Fed's hitting the bottom of the racquet face explains why he seems to shank his forehands more than Djokovic or Nadal.

By comparison, here are some videos of Djokovic and Nadal, both of whom seem to be hitting better forehands than Fed lately. If hitting the bottom of the racquet face is the new standard for players and coaches, then why aren't Djokovic and Nadal doing it, every time?

Here, Djokovic hitting the "sweet spot" with no twisting of the racquet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=MMiQ97Zrl_k&NR=1

Djokovic hitting the sweet spot again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq09yHPmKh0&NR=1&feature=endscreen

More Djokovic forehands, all sweet spot, no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk1eqm_vazU

Djokovic in super slo-mo, sweet spot no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2psgKKRzcgQ&feature=endscreen&NR=1

Nadal hitting mostly "sweet spot" with 2 slight mis-hits when he was slightly out of position:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQvbT8uEGk&feature=related

Here's a Nadal/Federer comparison where both hit center face and neither have any twisting of the racquet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rl0fwXTrr8

Fed hitting the sweet spot with no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvZ7prb43Lk&feature=related

Fed in super slo-mo hitting sweet spot again, no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_6hC2qKnKw&feature=related

Again, if it's beneficial, and intentional, why wouldn't Fed do it every time?

I CALL BS ON THIS ONE!

PS:
Soderling forehand, sweet spot, no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWW3J1EpR7g

Tsonga forehands, all sweet spot, no twisting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=_CrWFui1jW4&feature=endscreen



First off just because there is no twisting does not mean that they did not hit off center. The twisting looks like it occurs when the off center is exaggerated.

What is funny is a lot of example clips that you used do show them hitting off center, you have to pause it at contact to see the contact spot on the racket. To see this accurately you need the super slow motion clips that stay clear at contact.

I have seen this numerous times on super slow motion vids, the contact is slightly off center. By that i mean that the ball hits closer to side of the hoop of the racket that is closest to the ground. All you have to do is watch enough clips that show the contact clearly, there are hundreds of them out there.

I have a hard time believing that all of these are miss hits when it shows the best players in the world hitting like this a high % of the time.

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 08:12 AM
^^^^^^Am I the only one that thinks this is funny?

No! I think your self depricating humor is funny, too!

holytennis
02-06-2012, 08:14 AM
http://xkcd.com/386/

Funny!! ^^

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 08:14 AM
I don't know if the pro players are trying to hit off center, but i do know that after watching a lot of slow motion forehands that this happens very often and it is not a miss hit.

Sorry, John. But, it seems that I have to keep putting out the same fire.For a Tennisplayer article, I did an analysis of 300 forehands, roughly 100 each for Fed, Djok, and Nadal all filmed in high speed video where you could go frame by frame and see the ball on the strings for 2 frames.

More than a third were hit on the center line. A little less than a third were above. A little less than a third were below.

To me it's obvious that they try for the center line and make it often and miss it the rest of time to a greater or a lesser degree a little above or a little below.

The one unexpected result was that there was a tendency, especially with Djok to hit on the center line but closer out to the tip of the racket. Very few balls were hit closer to the handle by any of the three.

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 08:16 AM
Funny!! ^^

The misuse of the word sarcasm is epidemic!

sureshs
02-06-2012, 08:27 AM
Deliberately hitting on the lower half (with racquet horizontal) seems to be possible only in table tennis, where the hand is close to the rubber and wrist is very important, both contributing to fine control. I have seen several backhand and forehand flicks which seem to suggest voluntary choice of hitting area. I don't think this is possible in tennis, and what is more, John Yandell's studies have shown the hits to distributed on the center, above and below without much preference. On the WTA, I have seen many, many slow motion TV replays of Li Na and other players where they mostly hit smack on the center.

arche3
02-06-2012, 09:25 AM
No! I think your self depricating humor is funny, too!

Limphitter is the best.

tlm
02-06-2012, 09:55 AM
Sorry, John. But, it seems that I have to keep putting out the same fire.

Your not putting out any fire, you are just using what john says to try to back up your claims which are wrong. Why don't you watch a little more closely of your own examples? If you could open your eyes and really watch your own clips that you listed it proves that you did not watch closely or you can't see.

John says he watched 300 vids that showed contact point, well that is great lets see them. But being we have your examples right here where it is much easier to just watch them, which obviously you did not watch very closely. To see were the ball hits on the racket the super slow motion high definition clips are the only ones that show this clearly, even then you need to pause right at contact on many of them to really see were the contact is made.

Like john claimed some are hit in the middle, some are hit above center but these are rare, but many are hit just below center.The one thing i noticed is is seems like the shots were they have more time to set up on is when they hit below center more often. Were when they are rushed or stretched out this is when they seem to hit in more varied spots on the racket.

You are just one of the dinosaurs on this site that have this old school tennis instruction that is outdated and incorrect for the modern tennis game. But you can't stand to admit that so you keep trying to prove anything that does not go along with your 1970's thinking is incorrect. It is really time to wake up and open your mind up.

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 11:14 AM
Limphitter is the best.

self-dep·re·cat·ing (slfdpr-ktng) adj. Tending to undervalue oneself and one's abilities.

But, thanks for the love! Hahaha!

treblings
02-06-2012, 11:17 AM
Deliberately hitting on the lower half (with racquet horizontal) seems to be possible only in table tennis, where the hand is close to the rubber and wrist is very important, both contributing to fine control. I have seen several backhand and forehand flicks which seem to suggest voluntary choice of hitting area. I don't think this is possible in tennis, and what is more, John Yandell's studies have shown the hits to distributed on the center, above and below without much preference. On the WTA, I have seen many, many slow motion TV replays of Li Na and other players where they mostly hit smack on the center.

youīre correct, in tabletennis it is quite common for good players to hit the ball at the tip of the bat to get the most rotation for the serve.
the hand is closer to the rubber, also itīs easier to watch the ball at contact

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 11:17 AM
Your not putting out any fire, you are just using what john says to try to back up your claims which are wrong. Why don't you watch a little more closely of your own examples? If you could open your eyes and really watch your own clips that you listed it proves that you did not watch closely or you can't see.

John says he watched 300 vids that showed contact point, well that is great lets see them. But being we have your examples right here where it is much easier to just watch them, which obviously you did not watch very closely. To see were the ball hits on the racket the super slow motion high definition clips are the only ones that show this clearly, even then you need to pause right at contact on many of them to really see were the contact is made.

Like john claimed some are hit in the middle, some are hit above center but these are rare, but many are hit just below center.The one thing i noticed is is seems like the shots were they have more time to set up on is when they hit below center more often. Were when they are rushed or stretched out this is when they seem to hit in more varied spots on the racket.

You are just one of the dinosaurs on this site that have this old school tennis instruction that is outdated and incorrect for the modern tennis game. But you can't stand to admit that so you keep trying to prove anything that does not go along with your 1970's thinking is incorrect. It is really time to wake up and open your mind up.

So you're saying that your Youtube surfing is more pusuasive than John Yandell's research. Hahaha! OK! But, I'm not trying to prove anything, you are. And the weight of available evidence is heavily against you, Lsmkenpo, Ace Pace and GoSurfBoy who initially asserted that top coaches teach intentionally hitting the bottom of the racquet face and that to players actually do that.

As for me, like your youthful friend, Lsmkenpo, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

treblings
02-06-2012, 11:23 AM
i would really like to get an answer to my question how you train for hitting the ball off-center.
when do i know, that iīve been sucessful with my training?

Lsmkenpo
02-06-2012, 11:25 AM
There is no competent scientific evidence that mis-hitting a tennis ball adds spin or improves shot production. The fact that you have blindly bought into such a facially ridiculous premise is more a reflection of you than of the premise.



As is typical of the less informed, you know absolutely nothing about me, but, proceed upon inapposite, manufactured premises about me to support a ridiculous argument. I suppose I am an older player compared to the typical, pimple faced, mouth breathing know-it-all that inhabits the forums on TT. Funny how those with the least knowledge and experience seem have the strongest held opinions.

Conversely, being older, wiser, and having evolved from Continental, to Eastern to modern SW strokes over a time that I suspect predates your existence, I feel uniquely qualified to comment about the benefits and detriments of all three styles of play. And I am confident that intentionally mis-hitting the ball has nothing to do with modern tennis stroke production. Even if contact below the center-line of the racquet face did add spin, I dispute that it can intentionally be done consistently, and/or effectively. In any event, John Yandell's data establishes that there is no such intent.

It is a waste of my energy to argue with you, you are a close minded individual that thinks he knows it all and throws insults at anyone with a different idea, technique, or insight into tennis stroke production. You dismiss all evidence that doesn't conform to your own self indulgent view of the game. There are people who think outside the box and innovate with new ideas, you are not one of those individuals. How do you think the game evolves? A lot of innovation actually happens from what would commonly be viewed as mistakes that don't quite align with the established norm, but curiously when the results of these perceived errors are examined closer we find a surprising result. Next thing you know the established norm is no longer the only correct way.

The idea of hitting purposely lower on the sweetspot on certain shots is a legitimate technique it is not a mishit if you don't hit directly in the center.

If a player is looking to hit a shot with more spin and hitting the center of the sweetspot results in less spin than hitting the bottom of the sweetspot, the mishit is hitting the center.

I encourage players to try it themselves and see if it works as I say it does, go hit some high forehands, hit with a flatter swing plane into the ball but hit a little below center but still a perpendicular racquet face at contact.
I bet you will hit a flatter trajectory shot that has noticeably more topspin than the same shot hit in the sweetspot. Most shanks are from mistiming the vertical swing plane of the stroke not the horizontal. This technique allows a player to use a more horizontal swing path into the ball but gives the spin of a stroke hit with a steeper swing plane to contact.

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 11:35 AM
i would really like to get an answer to my question how you train for hitting the ball off-center.
when do i know, that iīve been sucessful with my training?

Really? Haha! I find it challenging enough to hit the sweet spot. Even if there is any merit to purposely hitting off center, I don't foresee spending any time trying to perfect that technique.

Lsmkenpo
02-06-2012, 11:45 AM
i would really like to get an answer to my question how you train for hitting the ball off-center.
when do i know, that iīve been sucessful with my training?

By improving your hand eye coordination, can you bounce a tennis ball up and down on your racquet hitting the center every time, now try bouncing it alternating the face of the racquet in your hand between bounces, now turn the racquet on edge and bounce the ball on the frame holding it perpendicular to the ground? finally try spinning it around to the other side of the frame after each bounce. This is an exercise used to improve hand eye coordination, start there. When your hand eye becomes good enough you will gain confidence to hit on the string bed in the area you wish to hit consistently.

treblings
02-06-2012, 11:46 AM
Really? Haha! I find it challenging enough to hit the sweet spot. Even if there is any merit to purposely hitting off center, I don't foresee spending any time trying to perfect that technique.

me neither, but thatīs my point.
if i try to hit the sweet spot i get an instant feedback from the racket.
if i try to hit off-center, how do i know if i hit the right spot.

if these posters say, thatīs the new technique than i would like to know how specifically they train for it.
i donīt think itīs unreasonable to ask that question

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 11:52 AM
It is a waste of my energy to argue with you, you are a close minded individual that thinks he knows it all and throws insults at anyone with a different idea, technique, or insight into tennis stroke production. You dismiss all evidence that doesn't conform to your own self indulgent view of the game. There are people who think outside the box and innovate with new ideas, you are not one of those individuals. How do you think the game evolves? A lot of innovation actually happens from what would commonly be viewed as mistakes that don't quite align with the established norm, but curiously when the results of these perceived errors are examined closer we find a surprising result. Next thing you know the established norm is no longer the only correct way.

The idea of hitting purposely lower on the sweetspot on certain shots is a legitimate technique it is not a mishit if you don't hit directly in the center.

If a player is looking to hit a shot with more spin and hitting the center of the sweetspot results in less spin than hitting the bottom of the sweetspot, the mishit is hitting the center.

I encourage players to try it themselves and see if it works as I say it does, go hit some high forehands, hit with a flatter swing plane into the ball but hit a little below center but still a perpendicular racquet face at contact.
I bet you will hit a flatter trajectory shot that has noticeably more topspin than the same shot hit in the sweetspot. Most shanks are from mistiming the vertical swing plane of the stroke not the horizontal. This technique allows a player to use a more horizontal swing path into the ball but gives the spin of a stroke hit with a steeper swing plane to contact.

Thank you for your insult free response, Lsmkenpo.

Yes, it is a waste of time trying to argue an implausible point with me. Until, and unless, you can produce some credible authority who supports intentionally hitting the bottom of the raquet face, for what ever reason, I don't buy it. And, in addition to some of the surprised responses by younger more modern players than me, I'm not alone in that resistance. What do you think of this from the Oscar at Fair thread:

Okay, I've now looked at the thread sureshs referenced! I thought that was a post by sureshs himself talking about hitting below centre - I assumed he had become a disciple of OW overnight!!!

As for the guy who posted that originally, what a crock of ****! I work with tour coaches everyday of the week and have never heard any of them berating a playing for hitting centre! I guess happy troll is happy today!!!

Cheers

Cheers!

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 11:56 AM
me neither, but thatīs my point.
if i try to hit the sweet spot i get an instant feedback from the racket.
if i try to hit off-center, how do i know if i hit the right spot.

if these posters say, thatīs the new technique than i would like to know how specifically they train for it.
i donīt think itīs unreasonable to ask that question

It's only unreasonable to the extent that it's moot. If there is merit to it, surely some high profile coach or player has commented on it, no?

PS: Treb, I have to say you're a much better diplomat than I am.

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 12:00 PM
By improving your hand eye coordination, can you bounce a tennis ball up and down on your racquet hitting the center every time, now try bouncing it alternating the face of the racquet in your hand between bounces, now turn the racquet on edge and bounce the ball on the frame holding it perpendicular to the ground? finally try spinning it around to the other side of the frame after each bounce. This is an exercise used to improve hand eye coordination, start there. When your hand eye becomes good enough you will gain confidence to hit on the string bed in the area you wish to hit consistently.

Nevertheless, I still think that that eye-hand coordination is best employed by seeking to hit the sweet spot.

Lsmkenpo
02-06-2012, 12:02 PM
me neither, but thatīs my point.
if i try to hit the sweet spot i get an instant feedback from the racket.
if i try to hit off-center, how do i know if i hit the right spot.

if these posters say, thatīs the new technique than i would like to know how specifically they train for it.
i donīt think itīs unreasonable to ask that question

You can't feel where you hit on the stringbed unless it is in the sweetspot?
Are you gripping the racquet too tight, if you hit a little above or below the sweetspot at contact the racquet will slightly twist. You should be able to feel that if you hit above or below unless you are clenching the racquet extremely tight at contact.

tlm
02-06-2012, 12:04 PM
So you're saying that your Youtube surfing is more pusuasive than John Yandell's research. Hahaha! OK! But, I'm not trying to prove anything, you are. And the weight of available evidence is heavily against you, Lsmkenpo, Ace Pace and GoSurfBoy who initially asserted that top coaches teach intentionally hitting the bottom of the racquet face and that to players actually do that.

As for me, like your youthful friend, Lsmkenpo, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.


Again more of your non stop BS, where did i say that you tube surfing was more persuasive than Johns research? I said that lets just use the same vids that you posted. Unlike you i would rather see the evidence instead of listening to someone's else's opinion.

Are the clips showing the top players strokes on you tube not accurate? What are these fake or not the real clips of the pro players? I never said that coaches teach to hit on the bottom half of the racket, that was other posters.

I do know that i have seen numerous examples of them hitting just below center this is fact, not fiction you know were you spend most of your time. There is no weight of evidence against me, just your BS. Your own clips showed many examples of just what i am talking about.

Like i already mentioned some of your clips are not clear or slow enough to even see were the ball was hit. But many are, like i said go back and watch them and pause them at contact. Some appear that the ball is going to hit center but that is right before contact, if you can see clearly many of them hit right below center.

But of course you won't do that because you are to stupid and don't even know that your own clips posted counter your claim. But it could slap you in the face and you still would not admit it because you are still living in the past and their is no changing that.

treblings
02-06-2012, 12:14 PM
It's only unreasonable to the extent that it's moot. If there is merit to it, surely some high profile coach or player has commented on it, no?

PS: Treb, I have to say you're a much better diplomat than I am.

iīve played four hours+ of tennis today and really enjoyed myself.
first big senior tourney is just 6 weeks away:)
btw, iīve tried to rotate my back more on my bh and to hit with a straight arm.
it works like a charm as long as i have enough time to prepare:)

iīm just trying to give these posters a little bit of rope

Lsmkenpo
02-06-2012, 12:16 PM
Thank you for your insult free response, Lsmkenpo.

Yes, it is a waste of time trying to argue an implausible point with me. Until, and unless, you can produce some credible authority who supports intentionally hitting the bottom of the raquet face, for what ever reason, I don't buy it. And, in addition to some of the surprised responses by younger more modern players than me, I'm not alone in that resistance. What do you think of this from the Oscar at Fair thread:



Cheers!



Scroll down to the bottom and read the article A Roadmap to a Hall-of-Fame Forehand - Part 2: Does the Impact Location on the Stringbed Matter? http://blog.tennisspeed.com/

Than scroll up and look at the about me citing the authors background and credentials, do you consider this credible?

Cheers!

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 12:22 PM
iīve played four hours+ of tennis today and really enjoyed myself.
first big senior tourney is just 6 weeks away:)
btw, iīve tried to rotate my back more on my bh and to hit with a straight arm.
it works like a charm as long as i have enough time to prepare:)

iīm just trying to give these posters a little bit of rope

Haha!

As for the bh, turn first, then run and/or adjustment steps as needed.

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 12:41 PM
Scroll down to the bottom and read the article A Roadmap to a Hall-of-Fame Forehand - Part 2: Does the Impact Location on the Stringbed Matter? http://blog.tennisspeed.com/

Than scroll up and look at the about me citing the authors background and credentials, do you consider this credible?

Cheers!

So, this guy is saying that pros are, in effect, able to pick which string they want to hit with, and that that choice varies with all of the different circumstances they might find themselves in, while returning 130 mph serves and running down 95 mph forehands? Because, I didn't see that part in the article you referred me to. He does indicate that pros are contacting the ball all over their racquet face. I didn't see the part where he says they do it intentionally. Could you please direct my attention to that specific point? Thank you. In the mean time, he doesn't identify himself or who he coaches, but he does characterize himself as a "high level coach."

I do, however, like his blog entry on "The Wisdom of Mr. Jack Kramer."

treblings
02-06-2012, 12:52 PM
Haha!

As for the bh, turn first, then run and/or adjustment steps as needed.

thereīs a saying from confucius(i think) that if you do something a thousand times it becomes difficult, do it a thousand x thousand times and it becomes easy, do it a thousand x thousand x thousand times and it becomes a part of yourself:) iīm into the first thousand backhands

Lsmkenpo
02-06-2012, 02:08 PM
So, this guy is saying that pros are, in effect, able to pick which string they want to hit with, and that that choice varies with all of the different circumstances they might find themselves in, while returning 130 mph serves and running down 95 mph forehands? Because, I didn't see that part in the article you referred me to. He does indicate that pros are contacting the ball all over their racquet face. I didn't see the part where he says they do it intentionally. Could you please direct my attention to that specific point? Thank you. In the mean time, he doesn't identify himself or who he coaches, but he does characterize himself as a "high level coach."

I do, however, like his blog entry on "The Wisdom of Mr. Jack Kramer."

You are now misconstruing the argument.

I never made the assertion that the technique should be used against 130mph serves or when running to track down 95mph forehands, did I ?

You stated earlier you struggle to hit the sweet spot of the racquet. The technique isn't for you, it is for advanced players that can hit the 6-8" sweet spot of a frame consistently during a rally.

"Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack" - George Patton

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking" -George Patton

tlm
02-06-2012, 02:13 PM
You are now misconstruing the argument.

I never made the assertion that the technique should be used against 130mph serves or when running to track down 95mph forehands, did I ?

You stated earlier you struggle to hit the sweet spot of the racquet. The technique isn't for you, it is for advanced players that can hit the 6-8" sweet spot of a frame consistently during a rally.

"Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack" - George Patton

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking" -George Patton



That is limpinhitter's speciality misconstruing the argument.

Lsmkenpo
02-06-2012, 02:42 PM
There was a Roger Federer interview I recall watching, where the interviewer asked Federer to talk a little about his forehand and his response was something along the lines of which one I hit about twenty different kinds. Anyone remember this interview?

ace_pace
02-06-2012, 04:35 PM
Did I miss anything? :D

Anyways, what I should have said earlier was that hitting the bottom half of the racket is only really used by pros in optimal situations. Several non optimal situations are when they are not into position e.g. running to get to the ball or do not have enough time to properly set up the racket e.g. returning serves. If they are in these positions, they will go for the safer option and hit in the center of the racket.

And to answer the OP's question, is to just practice some more. Watch the ball hit the strings of your racket. KEEP YOUR HEAD STILL! Failing to do so results in framing or even missing. In the end it doesn't really matter where the ball hits the strings more or less, as long as you have clean contact (and for learning curve's sake, preferably in the centre of the racket).

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 05:02 PM
You are now misconstruing the argument.

I never made the assertion that the technique should be used against 130mph serves or when running to track down 95mph forehands, did I ?

You stated earlier you struggle to hit the sweet spot of the racquet. The technique isn't for you, it is for advanced players that can hit the 6-8" sweet spot of a frame consistently during a rally.

"Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack" - George Patton

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking" -George Patton

So, this intentional mis-hit technique you're advocating is not appropriate for returning 130 mph serves and 95 mph forehands. But, for other situations, it is? Fascinating! No, I didn't say I struggle hitting the sweet spot. Read again.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out loud and remove all doubt." -- Abraham Lincoln

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 05:06 PM
Did I miss anything? :D

Anyways, what I should have said earlier was that hitting the bottom half of the racket is only really used by pros in optimal situations. Several non optimal situations are when they are not into position e.g. running to get to the ball or do not have enough time to properly set up the racket e.g. returning serves. If they are in these positions, they will go for the safer option and hit in the center of the racket.

* * *

What optimal situations would that be?

ace_pace
02-06-2012, 05:18 PM
What optimal situations would that be?

Usually it would be when going for winners off short balls or shoulder high balls. Sometimes striking a ball in a neutral rally in the hope of getting to a better offensive position.

Here's Roger Federer doing in semi-slow motion. I know hes not playing/practicing full on as this is just a show court practice but surely hes aiming for the lower half of the racket http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc&feature=related. Near the end though he does start striking the ball with the centre of the racket.

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 05:28 PM
Usually it would be when going for winners off short balls or shoulder high balls. Sometimes striking a ball in a neutral rally in the hope of getting to a better offensive position.

Here's Roger Federer doing in semi-slow motion. I know hes not playing/practicing full on as this is just a show court practice but surely hes aiming for the lower half of the racket http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc&feature=related. Near the end though he does start striking the ball with the centre of the racket.

So basically it works best when attacking short sitters? Fair enough! I'll try it the next chance I get and report back.

tlm
02-06-2012, 06:59 PM
Usually it would be when going for winners off short balls or shoulder high balls. Sometimes striking a ball in a neutral rally in the hope of getting to a better offensive position.

Here's Roger Federer doing in semi-slow motion. I know hes not playing/practicing full on as this is just a show court practice but surely hes aiming for the lower half of the racket http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc&feature=related. Near the end though he does start striking the ball with the centre of the racket.


Well now how many of these are hit below center there limpinhitter? Let me guess these don't count because they don't follow john yandels figures that he come up with. Or these are just from surfing youtube so they can't be right.

Pretty funny how a very high % of these hit below center even though fed has all day to set up. I guess he must have been off that day because those have to be all miss hits right limpinhitter?

Nothing funnier than proof right in front of your eyes there huh MR expert. Kinda like the other post that claimed that the pro players hit mostly deep. Again this was what the old school boys were claiming. But then comes along the shot chart from the AO and low and behold they are proved dead wrong yet again.

This is so hilarious, the same clowns that talk down to everyone else that does not believe their outdated thoughts and theory's are now proven dead wrong by real live evidence that everyone can see.

tlm
02-06-2012, 07:02 PM
So basically it works best when attacking short sitters? Fair enough! I'll try it the next chance I get and report back.


Wait a minute first you say this is all a bunch of BS, but now you are saying you are going to try it? This is just to good to be true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

arche3
02-06-2012, 08:35 PM
I don't really think the pros like Fed (or any pro really) hit towards the bottom on purpose. I think they get a feel for a shot in a certain situation and that feel is what they are going for. It could be a slightly closed face with a less severe low to high motion coupled with a lower than center ball stroke that produces the feel of the shot so they just keep replicating it. so yeah I do think they hit towards the bottom as I can pick through youtube vids and see it if I slow down the video. But I think pros and high level athletes in general are feel based rather than intellect based in regards to their tennis.

I think high sitters to my FH that land mid court that I try to crush DTL I definitly hit lower than center. It feels like my racket is closed more and my swing is through the ball down into the court and then across the finish instead of racking it low to high.

tlm
02-06-2012, 08:58 PM
I don't really think the pros like Fed (or any pro really) hit towards the bottom on purpose. I think they get a feel for a shot in a certain situation and that feel is what they are going for. It could be a slightly closed face with a less severe low to high motion coupled with a lower than center ball stroke that produces the feel of the shot so they just keep replicating it. so yeah I do think they hit towards the bottom as I can pick through youtube vids and see it if I slow down the video. But I think pros and high level athletes in general are feel based rather than intellect based in regards to their tennis.

I think high sitters to my FH that land mid court that I try to crush DTL I definitly hit lower than center. It feels like my racket is closed more and my swing is through the ball down into the court and then across the finish instead of racking it low to high.


Your probably right maybe they are not trying to do this on purpose, i never claimed that myself. But like you i have seen it so many times that it is apparent that these are not by accident or as some claim miss hits.

arche3
02-06-2012, 09:10 PM
Your probably right maybe they are not trying to do this on purpose, i never claimed that myself. But like you i have seen it so many times that it is apparent that these are not by accident or as some claim miss hits.

I do think that if Fed or any of the pros wanted to hit the ball say an inch lower than center on purpose they can easily do it consistently after a bit of practice. These guys play tennis like freakin samurai. they live and die by the racket. to say they can't hit lower if they wanted to is just not reasonable. Using the average 3.5 skill set of TT to justify what a Pro like fed can or can't do with a tennis balls based on the same experience of a 3.5 skill set is funny. It is like a kid arguing with another kid on how many cookies Santa eats every xmas. Duh... the adults know the truth. Zero. But the kids can go on all day about the kind and number of cookies Santa ingested.

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 09:21 PM
Your probably right maybe they are not trying to do this on purpose, i never claimed that myself. But like you i have seen it so many times that it is apparent that these are not by accident or as some claim miss hits.

Hahaha! UNBELIEVABLE!

Limpinhitter
02-06-2012, 09:23 PM
I do think that if Fed or any of the pros wanted to hit the ball say an inch lower than center on purpose they can easily do it consistently after a bit of practice. These guys play tennis like freakin samurai. they live and die by the racket. to say they can't hit lower if they wanted to is just not reasonable. Using the average 3.5 skill set of TT to justify what a Pro like fed can or can't do with a tennis balls based on the same experience of a 3.5 skill set is funny. It is like a kid arguing with another kid on how many cookies Santa eats every xmas. Duh... the adults know the truth. Zero. But the kids can go on all day about the kind and number of cookies Santa ingested.

I guess the shankfests are "on purpose" too!

arche3
02-06-2012, 09:26 PM
I guess the shankfests are "on purpose" too!

I think the shanks are errors duh. probably has something to do with the OTHER pro across the net from them trying to give them a ball they don't like. Isn't that obvious Limp? Do you always get a perfect ball to hit from your opponent when you play Limp? Oh yeah... you don't actually play tennis. you just talk about it.

Lsmkenpo
02-06-2012, 09:52 PM
So basically it works best when attacking short sitters? Fair enough! I'll try it the next chance I get and report back.

If you find it a challenge to just hit the 6-8" sweetspot of the racquet, it is safe to say you are not ready to try the technique. What racquet do you use? Is it an OS ?

I recommend you start practicing the hand eye coordination drill I posted earlier first.

Just work on bouncing the ball on your string bed hitting the sweet spot for a few months until it is no longer such a challenge for you, than you can try an advanced technique, you are not ready yet.

treblings
02-06-2012, 10:47 PM
You can't feel where you hit on the stringbed unless it is in the sweetspot?
Are you gripping the racquet too tight, if you hit a little above or below the sweetspot at contact the racquet will slightly twist. You should be able to feel that if you hit above or below unless you are clenching the racquet extremely tight at contact.

well first of all, thanks for your answers:)

i can tell, if i donīt hit the ball in the sweetspot, but does that automatically mean, i hit it in the right spot?
do you or did you work on that technique with a coach?
and do you use it in all situations or is it a conscious decision during a rally?

the hand-eye coordination exercises you mention are good, i use them
particularly when playing with kids. many of them need these exercises desperately before they can make real progress on the court.

tlm
02-07-2012, 04:23 AM
Hahaha! UNBELIEVABLE!

Nothing unbelievable about it i never made that claim. Others here have said that they are hitting below on purpose. I don't know if that is true or not, but i do know that i never said that.

I have always stated that i have seen a lot of videos that show top players hitting a lot of forehands below center line, which i have proof of that.

The unbelievable hahaha is you the clown that first said that this never happens unless it is a miss hit. But now claim after seeing fed hit forehands repeatedly below center are going to try it yourself.

Limpinhitter
02-07-2012, 06:50 AM
Nothing unbelievable about it i never made that claim. Others here have said that they are hitting below on purpose. I don't know if that is true or not, but i do know that i never said that.

I have always stated that i have seen a lot of videos that show top players hitting a lot of forehands below center line, which i have proof of that.

The unbelievable hahaha is you the clown that first said that this never happens unless it is a miss hit. But now claim after seeing fed hit forehands repeatedly below center are going to try it yourself.

More misprepresentations! You're a clown! My willingness to give it a try was based on Ace Pace's civil response to my inquiry and his clarification of the application of when to hit below the centerline. I don't expect good results because I have (unintentionally) hit below the centerline many times (a natural result of converting from an Eastern drive to a SW modern WW stroke), and it has not been as effective as hitting in the sweet spot. Further, I don't particularly care what Federer does. No one else hits the ball the way he does, and for good reason. His stroke production is not a good model for others who don't have his once in a decade rare talent.

arche3
02-07-2012, 06:55 AM
Further, I don't particularly care what Federer does. No one else hits the ball the way he does, and for good reason. His stroke production is not a good model for others.

Fed seems to be a great model to emulate for most players. His all court game is perhaps the best ever. His strokes have aspects of a lot of styles and is solid all around.
Whom do you think should be modeled?

Limpinhitter
02-07-2012, 07:07 AM
Fed seems to be a great model to emulate for most players. His all court game is perhaps the best ever. His strokes have aspects of a lot of styles and is solid all around.
Whom do you think should be modeled?

Most players? I haven't seen them! And, I don't know your definition of "all court game." I would be more specific and say that Fed's forehand is (or was) the best shot in the history of tennis, and he has/had the best footwork and overall movement in the history of tennis. To the extent that he had the uncanny ability to hit his forehand all over the court, then, I agree with you. He had a great serve, too. His backhand and net game/volleys were not the best, IMO.

Personally, I think Nadal's and Djokovic's forehands are much easier, more effective models for others to emulate and execute well. Nadal's forehand looks almost like a "paint by the numbers" stroke in which he assumes specific positions through his stroke. A local coach told me that that characteristic was due to his being a natural righty. I would also hold up Djokovic's and Agassi's backands as ideal models to emulate. There are plenty others, but, I can't think of any better of the top.

arche3
02-07-2012, 07:36 AM
Most players? I haven't seen them! And, I don't know your definition of "all court game." I would be more specific and say that Fed's forehand is (or was) the best shot in the history of tennis, and he has/had the best footwork and overall movement in the history of tennis. To the extent that he had the uncanny ability to hit his forehand all over the court, then, I agree with you. He had a great serve, too. His backhand and net game/volleys were not the best, IMO.

Personally, I think Nadal's and Djokovic's forehands are much easier, more effective models for others to emulate and execute well. Nadal's forehand looks almost like a "paint by the numbers" stroke in which he assumes specific positions through his stroke. A local coach told me that that characteristic was due to his being a natural righty. I would also hold up Djokovic's and Agassi's backands as ideal models to emulate. There are plenty others, but, I can't think of any better of the top.

personally I want Feds FH. Djokos BH. Volleys maybe Sampras. Service return Djoko. Serve probably Fed. (but add in a touch of roddick 1st serve too since I'm dreaming) I want Nadals running Fh that curves like crazy.

Limpinhitter
02-07-2012, 07:47 AM
personally I want Feds FH. Djokos BH. Volleys maybe Sampras. Service return Djoko. Serve probably Fed. (but add in a touch of roddick 1st serve too since I'm dreaming) I want Nadals running Fh that curves like crazy.

Sure, I WANT Fed's forehand too. But, that's another matter. Again, I haven't seen anyone with Fed's forehand technique because, IMO, it's not practical to learn how to execute it consistently. Even Fed shanks and mis-hits more than his main rivals. Now imagine Fed's technique with a Continental grip. That was Laver's and Okker's forehands. They were spectacular shots, but, no one else did it that way, before or since, nor should they.

As for net game/volleys I'll take Tony Roche, Serve Pancho or Pete, backhand and return Agassi.

sureshs
02-07-2012, 08:17 AM
youīre correct, in tabletennis it is quite common for good players to hit the ball at the tip of the bat to get the most rotation for the serve.
the hand is closer to the rubber, also itīs easier to watch the ball at contact

Be careful - I am not talking about the tip - the parst farthest away from the handle. That is also used in tennis serves. The discussion here is about the lower half with paddle horizontal.

sureshs
02-07-2012, 08:19 AM
John says he watched 300 vids that showed contact point, well that is great lets see them.

No, he cannot give them away for free. It is up to you to believe it or not, or produce 300 of your own. Even academicians do not just hand away the specimens of their research to whoever asks.

sureshs
02-07-2012, 08:22 AM
The times when pros hit below the center are due to other reasons than intention to do so. I don't think this is ever taught or can be taught. It will just happen if other things line up, like flicking up a very low ball. It is a good example when the action will likely be on the lower half.

treblings
02-07-2012, 11:57 AM
Be careful - I am not talking about the tip - the parst farthest away from the handle. That is also used in tennis serves. The discussion here is about the lower half with paddle horizontal.

thanks,iīm aware of that. i was just mentioning another example from tabletennis:)