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View Full Version : Trend towards less swingweight?


Veninga
02-06-2012, 09:11 AM
Guys,

New Wilson line, less swingweight.
New Pure Drives, less swingweight.
Biomimetic vs Aeregel, less swingweight.
V core, less swingweight.

Looks like lower swingweights is trending.

I dont mind, but is there a reason for this?

Ramon
02-06-2012, 09:42 AM
You can add the new Prince Rebel 95 and Prince Warrior 100 (compared to Black and White) to that list.

I think it's a disturbing trend. Heavy racquets have a lot of benefits for the people who can handle them.

parasailing
02-06-2012, 09:44 AM
I also don't like the trend of going with lower SW especially hitting against much more powerful hitters. The extra SW helps provide stability and probably is good for prevention of elbow and arm injuries provided the racquets you get have high SW and not too stiff.

movdqa
02-06-2012, 09:48 AM
Lower SW = more capability to modify which is good.

coolblue123
02-06-2012, 09:50 AM
but can't we easily resolve the issue with lead? personnally I don't mind it bcz it leaves me to do more customizing.

Racquet-Priority
02-06-2012, 09:51 AM
Lower SW = more capability to modify which is good.

You are right. People are caring more about their equipment and things they can do for game improvement. Racquet brands know about this movement in the market.

djnemo
02-06-2012, 10:10 AM
Customizing is a pain- I would much rather just get the specs I want in a stock racquet. I think the vast majority of players, especially 4.5 and below, don't customize either. Hundreds of models out there, but less than 10 in 98-100 head size with some weight to it.

bluetrain4
02-06-2012, 10:17 AM
but can't we easily resolve the issue with lead? personnally I don't mind it bcz it leaves me to do more customizing.

Sometimes, certainly, but not always.

As for the Wilsons 6.1s, I don't think it's part of a bigger trend. Since the 6.1s are basically always the same stock weight, they have to do something to make one version different from the next. So, with this line, they made them more headlight and lower SW. I completely expect them to increase the SW in future versions of the 6.1s.

Veninga
02-06-2012, 10:20 AM
Personally I dont mind a bit of customising, but I prefer to buy a racket which is already good for playing and only need some optimialisation. But with this trend it is even harder to find a stick that suits you in stock shape.

For me with these new lower swingweights, more frames come into my range, but it looks like last years a pure drive was a pure drive and a six one 95 a six one 95 etc. Now we have to find out every sticks way of playing again.

Main reason imo is that lower swingweights improve racket speed and therefore spin production.

What do you think?

BC1
02-06-2012, 10:33 AM
I dont believe the new 2012 pure drives (regular, non roddick) are lower swing weight either, like the tw specs state. I and a friend of mine got one, both racquets are 11.5 strung with poly and with an overgrip. Same as the old ones. The new ones actually feel heavier and seem.to have a higher SW. I havent measueed the swing weight but i know it is way over 308. More like 320.

movdqa
02-06-2012, 10:37 AM
> Customizing is a pain- I would much rather just get the
> specs I want in a stock racquet. I think the vast majority of
> players, especially 4.5 and below, don't customize either.
> Hundreds of models out there, but less than 10 in 98-100
> head size with some weight to it.

My general experience is that you have to do some customization if you buy multiple stock frames - just to get them matched unless you use a matching service and even there you may want to do a little additional tweaking.

It is a pain but you just setup your racquets once and then enjoy.

Deathsticks
02-06-2012, 11:02 AM
I think that lower swing weight its marketing ploys. Most new players don't like playing with heavy rackets but still want expensive rackets.

To add, Babolats are opposite. Aeros have been rising in swing weight.

Teski
02-06-2012, 11:11 AM
You are right. People are caring more about their equipment and things they can do for game improvement. Racquet brands know about this movement in the market.

You say that because of the forums we are on. I'm willing to bet that the massive majority of people buying tennis rackets out there don't know what lead tape is and have no interest in using it either.

Veninga
02-06-2012, 11:32 AM
I dont believe the new 2012 pure drives (regular, non roddick) are lower swing weight either, like the tw specs state. I and a friend of mine got one, both racquets are 11.5 strung with poly and with an overgrip. Same as the old ones. The new ones actually feel heavier and seem.to have a higher SW. I havent measueed the swing weight but i know it is way over 308. More like 320.

Why is this? Do TW got different frames? Or is just result of "industry standards"?

Veninga
02-06-2012, 11:33 AM
You say that because of the forums we are on. I'm willing to bet that the massive majority of people buying tennis rackets out there don't know what lead tape is and have no interest in using it either.

Quite sure this is right.

bluetrain4
02-06-2012, 11:40 AM
TW's SW for the regular Pure Drive Roddick (non-extended version) is a nice 328. But, other sites list it significantly lower. If TW's spec is correct, it hasn't been reduced at all.

TennisCJC
02-06-2012, 11:42 AM
I've noticed this trend too and don't think it is good. I think stock rackets targeted toward people who play at 3.5 level and above should have a minimum SW of 320 grams. This is plenty low enough to feel very light in stock form and leaves room for customization if you want to go up from there.

New wilson ps 95 with SW under 310 was a big mistake in my opinion. I demo-ed this racket an it feels underpowered and not as stable when comparing it to a blx 6.1 95 or a blx tour 90.

I demo-ed a load of 11 oz rackets and ended up customizing a volkl o295 to SW 335+.

I like to customize but agree with others above that most people don't customize and don't want too.

Stock rackets for intermediate and advance recreational players should have a SW 320+ in my opinion.

CDestroyer
02-06-2012, 11:53 AM
OP is right. Lower swingweight and stiffer racquets. Great for the elbow.:smile:

sargeinaz
02-06-2012, 01:08 PM
Customizing is a pain- I would much rather just get the specs I want in a stock racquet. I think the vast majority of players, especially 4.5 and below, don't customize either. Hundreds of models out there, but less than 10 in 98-100 head size with some weight to it.

I completely agree. A racket, in my opinion, should be playable to you in stock form. I hate messing with lead. Once you go down that road, it never stops. Also, a heavier racket from the factory always feels better to me than a lighter racket with weight added to it. Sticks like the c10 pro, all the old head midpluses, the Fischer pro 1, the 6.1 95s, the prestige mids, the Wilson mids, a bunch of older yonexes (current ones like the 95D and rds001 mid and rds002t) etc are all great in stock form. Just throw in your favorite string and play. To me, sticks should be good enough in stock form i.e. A Volkl tour 10 midplus, but can still be leaded up without getting to be super heavy. The current Wilson blx prostaff 95 I tried was a joke. The thing is a fly swatter and by the time you lead it up you might as well just buy the 90 or a 6.1 95.

movdqa
02-06-2012, 01:18 PM
> Also, a heavier racket from the factory always feels better
> to me than a lighter racket with weight added to it.

Djokovic, Federer, Murray, Nadal and probably most of the ATP use lead on their frames. A lot of players use light hairpins with silicone and lead added. Djokovic, Murray, Berdych, Soderling, etc. do this and they seem to hit fine with that approach.

tlm
02-06-2012, 01:19 PM
I can't believe there are that many who think adding a little lead is a big deal. Like mentioned the specs vary greatly anyway, which by the way is almost always on the heavy side.

So if you start out a little lighter you can customize to what you want plus be able to match your rackets. Good luck matching factory rackets with specs that are all over the place.

PED
02-06-2012, 01:44 PM
TW's SW for the regular Pure Drive Roddick (non-extended version) is a nice 328. But, other sites list it significantly lower. If TW's spec is correct, it hasn't been reduced at all.

The SW on the outgoing GT non XL model is 334 so it's been dropped a bit. 328 should be nice; I played with one for awhile and had no issues with SW but a little more stick speed is always welcome.

LeeD
02-06-2012, 04:07 PM
Trend is to faster RHSpeed right?
Trend is turnover at fore and b backhand followthru, right?
Trend is to cater to the newer Junior player's, right?
So what is the problem here.
Trend is like skirt lengths too, of course.

sargeinaz
02-06-2012, 04:09 PM
> Also, a heavier racket from the factory always feels better
> to me than a lighter racket with weight added to it.

Djokovic, Federer, Murray, Nadal and probably most of the ATP use lead on their frames. A lot of players use light hairpins with silicone and lead added. Djokovic, Murray, Berdych, Soderling, etc. do this and they seem to hit fine with that approach.

Ok Federer's racket before adding weight to it is already over 12oz and Nadal as well uses a middle weight racket and then adds weight to it which I said I prefer because that way they're fine to hit with stock and then if someone wants to add weight to it they can. I never said that someone who leads up a light racket cant play well with it or that lead will ruin how a racket plays.

Also, I said it feels better to me personally. That's from my personal experience trying to lead up a microgel radical, a wilson blx ps 95 and a yonex rds002. I thought their heavier counterparts (or similar rackets if they didnt have an exact version that's heavier) played better. Perhaps I just suck at leading up rackets, I dont know.

Finally I dont really care what pro's do as far as their rackets and me trying to be like them because 1) I'm not a pro and am nowhere near as good 2) their whole sticks are custom from the weight to the handle shape to where lead/silicone is put and 3) it's done professionally and I dont have access to their rackets or have the money to hire a professional to lead/silicone up my prostock racket.

It would be nice if companies could release a standard version and a light version specifically made for customizing. That way everyone is happy, but this trend of making the midplus rackets lighter and lighter is not good for people who don't like to customize which I'm sure is the majority of tennis players.

LeeD
02-06-2012, 04:34 PM
Are you sure?
Look under this section and see how many posters can comment on any customizing done for any racket.

sargeinaz
02-06-2012, 04:39 PM
Are you sure?
Look under this section and see how many posters can comment on any customizing done for any racket.

I assume you're speaking to me. This board does not represent the majority of people who play tennis. This board is just a fraction of the people who play tennis and not even everyone on this board customizes their rackets. You think people are going to make a thread about NOT customizing a racket? I mean if that's the case, why would TW review a stick in stock form? Everyone customizes them anyways right? This board doesnt reflect the majority of the tennis playing public and most people probably play their rackets stock.

Dennison
02-06-2012, 04:54 PM
I assume you're speaking to me. This board does not represent the majority of people who play tennis. This board is just a fraction of the people who play tennis and not even everyone on this board customizes their rackets. You think people are going to make a thread about NOT customizing a racket? I mean if that's the case, why would TW review a stick in stock form? Everyone customizes them anyways right? This board doesnt reflect the majority of the tennis playing public and most people probably play their rackets stock.

That's very true, and it is not that simple as slapping some tape at 12 o'clock.
Sure you can increase swing weight by simply adding some tape at 12. But then balance will be more head heavy. So you have to counter balance it by putting lead inside the handle and so on. That's something vast majority of people will never do.

movdqa
02-06-2012, 05:04 PM
> Ok Federer's racket before adding weight to it is already over 12oz
> and Nadal as well uses a middle weight racket and then adds weight
> to it which I said I prefer because that way they're fine to hit
> with stock and then if someone wants to add weight to it they can. I
> never said that someone who leads up a light racket cant play well
> with it or that lead will ruin how a racket plays.

Federer uses different amounts of lead on his frame to bring them
to his specs. It's normal to use lead tape to get sets of racquets
as close as possible to the same specs. Stock racquets typically
vary in balance, swingweight and static weight so even Federer
has to do his mods with differing amounts of lead per frame.

> Also, I said it feels better to me personally. That's from my
> personal experience trying to lead up a microgel radical, a wilson
> blx ps 95 and a yonex rds002. I thought their heavier counterparts
> (or similar rackets if they didnt have an exact version that's
> heavier) played better. Perhaps I just suck at leading up rackets, I
> dont know.

I used to think this too before playing around with Pro Stocks.

> Finally I dont really care what pro's do as far as their rackets and
> me trying to be like them because 1) I'm not a pro and am nowhere
> near as good 2) their whole sticks are custom from the weight to the
> handle shape to where lead/silicone is put and 3) it's done
> professionally and I dont have access to their rackets or have the
> money to hire a professional to lead/silicone up my prostock racket.

It's not that hard to pick up pro stocks but it's not cheap. I've done
lead and silicone work myself - it's not rocket science - more like
being handy at Home Depot.

> It would be nice if companies could release a standard version and a
> light version specifically made for customizing. That way everyone
> is happy, but this trend of making the midplus rackets lighter and
> lighter is not good for people who don't like to customize which I'm
> sure is the majority of tennis players.

That's what the old Team racquets variants were for.

> I assume you're speaking to me. This board does not represent the
> majority of people who play tennis. This board is just a fraction of
> the people who play tennis and not even everyone on this board
> customizes their rackets. You think people are going to make a
> thread about NOT customizing a racket? I mean if that's the case,
> why would TW review a stick in stock form? Everyone customizes them
> anyways right? This board doesnt reflect the majority of the tennis
> playing public and most people probably play their rackets stock.

TW reviews often include comments that the playtesters have done
modifications on the test frames.

Ducker
02-06-2012, 05:04 PM
People love to customize and make it their own. Or custimize and make it liek therre favorite pro. If i had the money Id start a company who only made a 1 or 2 frames that were essesntially prostock and add along a do it yourself kit to customize the racquet injecting silcone or soemthing.

bertrevert
02-06-2012, 05:09 PM
OP is right. Lower swingweight and stiffer racquets. Great for the elbow.:smile:

This exactly describes the Head IG Instinct.

Am atm trying to figure out if recent arm and shoulder issues are exactly from this concoction. This "trend" may be detrimental to older elbows/shoulders.

The 69 stiffness of the Instinct feels as if every little mis-hit is hard-wired into my soft tissues - ouch!

the low swingweight is also causing depth of court issues ...

SFrazeur
02-06-2012, 05:12 PM
Trends come and go. Right now the trend is towards more/increasing racquet head speed. The fastest way to do that is to lower the swing-weight. Which in turn leads to stiffer racquets. When the swingweight is lowered the power level is lowered as well. So they increase the stiffness to regain the power.

-SF

bertrevert
02-06-2012, 06:39 PM
SF - Well I certainly agree from observation at tennis matches (of a higher level than I play that's for sure) that bat speed is key.

We have long left the kind of steering game that comes from the earlier era of heavier small-headed racquets.

A lower SW just definitely means a faster swat - similar can also be achieved by altering balance.

I like and choose the more even-balance lighter racquets but the stiffness they come with is an ice-pick in the gaps of my joints!

Does adding lead affect stiffness in any way?

movdqa
02-06-2012, 06:52 PM
You can add lead at the tips to get a polarized effect which results in more dynamic flex of the racquet.

Hi I'm Ray
02-07-2012, 04:50 AM
Guys,

New Wilson line, less swingweight.
New Pure Drives, less swingweight.
Biomimetic vs Aeregel, less swingweight.
V core, less swingweight.

Looks like lower swingweights is trending.

I dont mind, but is there a reason for this?

This is just a guess (aren't we all guessing anyways?), but probably because the trend is towards racket head speed and spin, and lowering swingweight is an easy way to achieve this. Same direction as the trend towards spin with all the poly strings and shaped polys.

Personally I don't mind this trend towards lighter. It leaves me much more room for customization (I could care less if ppl aren't willing to spend the time to customize. That's their problem if they aren't willing to put in the time). The majority of my sticks are heavy but there is just very little room for customization before they start to swing too slowly for me and start to feel cumbersome, especially on serve or when caught out of position.

For example, I love my Volkl PB 10 Mid - Its heavy and swings much lighter and faster than its specs might suggest, which gives me lots of power and spin. However, there is VERY little room for adding weight before it loses that fast feel for me and starts becoming ineffective for the way I like to use it.
My Aeropro Drives on the other hand are quite light and give me lots of room to add weight where I want. I can add a leather grip, and have the freedom of adding weight to polarize or depolarize it. Currently its a combination of both, some lead at the tip and several layers in the handle, but I have also had the freedom to shift all the weight to the tips which also works well and changes the way the racket plays.

I do think however, the rackets that start off heftier do feel more solid, even after I add weight the lighter ones. But given the choice between a racket that feels more solid or a racket that is customized to play very close to the way I want, I'd choose the latter any day. A lot of ppl here put a huge emphasis on the way a racket feels on impact, well hitting great shots and winning feels better :)

Teski
02-07-2012, 05:59 AM
I assume you're speaking to me. This board does not represent the majority of people who play tennis. This board is just a fraction of the people who play tennis and not even everyone on this board customizes their rackets. You think people are going to make a thread about NOT customizing a racket? I mean if that's the case, why would TW review a stick in stock form? Everyone customizes them anyways right? This board doesnt reflect the majority of the tennis playing public and most people probably play their rackets stock.

Exactly! The people on this board represent a single digit percentage of the tennis players out there. I'm willing to bet that less than 10% of recreational tennis players across the world customize their sticks with lead.

SFrazeur
02-07-2012, 06:31 AM
I assume you're speaking to me. This board does not represent the majority of people who play tennis. This board is just a fraction of the people who play tennis and not even everyone on this board customizes their rackets. You think people are going to make a thread about NOT customizing a racket? I mean if that's the case, why would TW review a stick in stock form? Everyone customizes them anyways right? This board doesnt reflect the majority of the tennis playing public and most people probably play their rackets stock.

Uhh. . .Yeah. There are a couple threads like that.

-SF

SFrazeur
02-07-2012, 06:40 AM
Exactly! The people on this board represent a single digit percentage of the tennis players out there. I'm willing to bet that less than 10% of recreational tennis players across the world customize their sticks with lead.


The percentage is fairly small. The majority of those rec players who do customize with lead only add 1-2 grams or about 4 inches tops.

-SF

sargeinaz
02-07-2012, 08:13 AM
Uhh. . .Yeah. There are a couple threads like that.

-SF

Perhaps I was not clear. People dont make threads asking what is everyone's stock racket set up since there is nothing to set up if youre playing with a stock racket. I'm not talking about overgrips, dampeners or strings. The most you can talk about is spec tolerances by the manufacturers. That's what I was trying to say.

As far as "Hi I'm Ray" saying he could care less if people dont want to put in the time to customize their rackets, I agree you shouldnt care, but I'd rather actually be playing tennis than sitting there tinkering with various lead set-ups and silicone trying to get my amateur RPNY on.

A_Instead
02-07-2012, 08:20 AM
I guess Gamma didnt get the lower SW memo on their new racquet offers...

SFrazeur
02-07-2012, 08:28 AM
I guess Gamma didnt get the lower SW memo on their new racquet offers...

I give Gamma credit for having "Tour" racquets with specs actually near with what pros would play with.

-SF

Larrysümmers
02-07-2012, 08:36 AM
I agree with LeeD. I think also you have to somehow, other that "technology", you must distinguish your 2012 model from your 2010 model. just my opinion, though.

SFrazeur
02-07-2012, 08:48 AM
I agree with LeeD. I think also you have to somehow, other that "technology", you must distinguish your 2012 model from your 2010 model. just my opinion, though.

I've noticed in the past that brands tend to "tip" their racquets back and forth. Sometimes a little lighter a tad more head heavy. Then they "tip" in the other direction. making it a little heaver weight and little more head light.

They change the feel a bit too. They want to make a successful racuqet a bit different to differentiate from the previous model and call it improved but not alienate it's user base.

Wilson for instance; with the BLX series they went for "better"feel supposedly blocking bad vibrations. Now they are going for "more" feel with the "amplifeel technology."

-SF

LeeD
02-07-2012, 09:47 AM
It's called the changing skirt length technology.
One year, it's long. Next, it's short. In skirts, it's more a 3 year trend.

netguy
02-07-2012, 10:22 AM
Dunlop 100 is not into that trend
4D swingweight is 308
Biomimetic swingweight is 323

Anyway, I went from a 337 (PB 10 Mid) to a 308 (Dunlop 100) and love it.

LeeD
02-07-2012, 10:28 AM
I dropped the same SW's, and it works fine for ME. If I was younger, stronger, more fit, and more serious about tennis, I'd stick with the 337 SW Dunlop200's.
But I"m not.
308 hits a heavy ball if the incoming ball is not a forcing shot.

PrinceMoron
02-07-2012, 10:30 AM
For example, I love my Volkl PB 10 Mid - Its heavy and swings much lighter and faster than its specs might suggest, which gives me lots of power and spin. However, there is VERY little room for adding weight before it loses that fast feel for me and starts becoming ineffective for the way I like to use it.


That is where we are all different, as the pb mid 10s I am keeping are leaded up to 397g. For me it was the worst racket I have ever played with at standard spec. I have 38g on the handle and it feels really quick. Just the opposite of a K88 which felt like a bucket of concrete.

netguy
02-07-2012, 11:17 AM
It looks like we are in the same boat.

I dropped the same SW's, and it works fine for ME. If I was younger, stronger, more fit, and more serious about tennis, I'd stick with the 337 SW Dunlop200's.
But I"m not.
308 hits a heavy ball if the incoming ball is not a forcing shot.