PDA

View Full Version : My New 2 Handed Backhand (first Attempt)


gregor.b
02-10-2012, 04:57 PM
Hello to all TT ers. Here is a first time video of me using a 2 handed backhand after 20 plus years of a one hander. Does it look like it has a chance ? Please feel free to comment positively or negatively. It feels weird but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Cheers,

Greg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35wxMxbWflE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

BevelDevil
02-10-2012, 05:09 PM
I like the double straight-arms at contact. Unusual, but worked for Agassi and is a more front-arm dominant shot, so hopefully your 1hbh experience will help speed up the learning curve.

gregor.b
02-10-2012, 05:16 PM
I like the double straight-arms at contact. Unusual, but worked for Agassi and is a more front-arm dominant shot, so hopefully your 1hbh experience will help speed up the learning curve.

Thanks, I think.As I alluded to,I don't really have any idea what I am doing. The idea is to take most of the stress off the right elbow and hopefully end up with a stroke that is somewhere near my 1 hander. If I can at least get on court and stay on court I will be happy.

MrCLEAN
02-10-2012, 05:36 PM
The big thing right now is that you're not rotating your shoulders on the follow through, it's all elbows right now. Granted its hard to do full swings on the wall, but when you get on a court in real hitting situations, try to really open up your shoulders on the follow through.

gregor.b
02-10-2012, 06:09 PM
The big thing right now is that you're not rotating your shoulders on the follow through, it's all elbows right now. Granted its hard to do full swings on the wall, but when you get on a court in real hitting situations, try to really open up your shoulders on the follow through.

Thanks,I will bear that in mind when I get onto a court. Yeah,the ball comes back pretty fast up against a wall.

Xizel
02-10-2012, 06:14 PM
I like the double straight-arms at contact. Unusual, but worked for Agassi and is a more front-arm dominant shot, so hopefully your 1hbh experience will help speed up the learning curve.

What's the common way? I come from a straight arm forehand and one handed backhand, so I also do straight arms on 2HBH (not as a main backhand, just for jokes and giggles).

BevelDevil
02-11-2012, 12:38 AM
What's the common way? I come from a straight arm forehand and one handed backhand, so I also do straight arms on 2HBH (not as a main backhand, just for jokes and giggles).

Either both bent or back arm straight front arm bent.

rkelley
02-11-2012, 07:04 AM
It doesn't look bad for a start. Here are a couple of thoughts (some already mentioned above):

You're using your shoulders much and you're not using your hips at all in the stroke. There's tons of free, effortless power there. You want to rotate your hips into the shot, which then pulls around the shoulders, which then drives the arms and finally the racquet through the contact zone. You're doing it almost all with your arms a little shoulder right now.

Your set-up and swing into the ball look really nice. Just pausing the youtube video I'd say you look really good right until right before contact. You're getting the racquet back, shoulders turned, neutral stance with good weighting. Just at the point when your hips should start rotating into the ball instead your arms start to come forward.

Here's a couple of guys with decent-ish backhands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJpmtCm70Vc&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k40zmz1uvA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql5xVpACt1Y

Watch their hips and shoulders as they hit. And note that these are just warm ups. Neither guy is trying to murder the ball, they're just using good, efficient form.

For what it's worth, you get more hip rotation and hence free power with your forehand. I think you could get more, but the point is that on your forehand you probably have a feeling of your shoulders and arms being pulled around a bit as you rotate into the shot. You want that feeling on your backhand too.

peoplespeace
02-11-2012, 08:25 AM
Ur hitting the ball with the racket face too open, this will get the ball over the net but not keep it in as most of the time u wont be able to pronate ur left arm fast enough to keep it in and it wont have enough topspin to dip by itself. More closed racket face a impact (vertical or slightly closed) the then get ur spin from comming from low to high (remember to be active with ur left hand in this process).

Mountain Ghost
02-11-2012, 09:34 AM
You're not that far away:

- Change your grip to a continental right and semi-western left
- Take your racquet back to the same "racquet back" position on every ball ... elbow more into the stomach and more consious of your racquet face being vertical. Your racquet is currently going back to a different place, and your racquet face to a different angle, depending on how far out of position you are
- Keep your shoulders between your feet ... upper body more vertical and use feet to adjust positioning, not different amounts of bending over at the waist

Many little details, but main things are continental right grip, upper body more consistently vertical and elbow not so far away from the stomach at full racquet-back.

MG

BevelDevil
02-11-2012, 10:22 AM
You're not that far away:

- Change your grip to a continental right and semi-western left


semi-western? Don't most players use Eastern on the top hand?

I think Agassi used a weak eastern and Jimmy Connors used a continental. I mention those two because they both hit with mostly straight arms at contact, so there might be a reason the straight/straight setup correlates with a mild top-hand grip.

rdis10093
02-11-2012, 10:34 AM
nice club, may I ask where

Mountain Ghost
02-11-2012, 11:00 AM
Queensland Tennis Centre in Tennyson?

gregor.b
02-11-2012, 11:39 AM
It doesn't look bad for a start. Here are a couple of thoughts (some already mentioned above):

You're using your shoulders much and you're not using your hips at all in the stroke. There's tons of free, effortless power there. You want to rotate your hips into the shot, which then pulls around the shoulders, which then drives the arms and finally the racquet through the contact zone. You're doing it almost all with your arms a little shoulder right now.

Your set-up and swing into the ball look really nice. Just pausing the youtube video I'd say you look really good right until right before contact. You're getting the racquet back, shoulders turned, neutral stance with good weighting. Just at the point when your hips should start rotating into the ball instead your arms start to come forward.

Here's a couple of guys with decent-ish backhands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJpmtCm70Vc&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k40zmz1uvA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql5xVpACt1Y

Watch their hips and shoulders as they hit. And note that these are just warm ups. Neither guy is trying to murder the ball, they're just using good, efficient form.

For what it's worth, you get more hip rotation and hence free power with your forehand. I think you could get more, but the point is that on your forehand you probably have a feeling of your shoulders and arms being pulled around a bit as you rotate into the shot. You want that feeling on your backhand too.
Awesome. This is the stuff I was looking for. I wasn't aware but you are right. So basically it kind of IS a left handed forehand where you start the shot by loading on the back leg same as I do on the f/h?

gregor.b
02-11-2012, 11:43 AM
Ur hitting the ball with the racket face too open, this will get the ball over the net but not keep it in as most of the time u wont be able to pronate ur left arm fast enough to keep it in and it wont have enough topspin to dip by itself. More closed racket face a impact (vertical or slightly closed) the then get ur spin from comming from low to high (remember to be active with ur left hand in this process).

I found this one easy to overcome by going around on the grip a little. If I drive the ball lower and harder I don't have enough time to set up for the next shot. I did try it. Don't forget, with the exception of 1 or 2 really bad attempts, I have NEVER played this shot before.

gregor.b
02-11-2012, 11:45 AM
Queensland Tennis Centre in Tennyson?

Yep,that is the one. My son trains there on Saturday mornings. He is only 7 and his ( 2 hander) is way better than mine. Lol.

gregor.b
02-11-2012, 11:55 AM
semi-western? Don't most players use Eastern on the top hand?

I think Agassi used a weak eastern and Jimmy Connors used a continental. I mention those two because they both hit with mostly straight arms at contact, so there might be a reason the straight/straight setup correlates with a mild top-hand grip.

I think I am using eastern grip for both as I use a s/w for r/h f/h and come around a little. I tried western with my left and was consistently hitting the ball too low.

rkelley
02-11-2012, 11:57 AM
Awesome. This is the stuff I was looking for. I wasn't aware but you are right. So basically it kind of IS a left handed forehand where you start the shot by loading on the back leg same as I do on the f/h?

You're welcome. Yes, you need to load that back leg and then shift your weight into the shot to the forward leg. If you really get those hips and shoulders turned the back leg will naturally swing around during the follow through and you'll end the stroke in and open stance. I think either Agassi or Djokovic did that on some of the bhs they hit even though they were just warming up.

This footwork is similar to a modern forehand that's been hit in a neutral stance - the back leg will come around during the follow through and you'll end the stroke in an open stance.

rkelley
02-11-2012, 12:06 PM
You're not that far away:

- Change your grip to a continental right and semi-western left
- Take your racquet back to the same "racquet back" position on every ball ... elbow more into the stomach and more consious of your racquet face being vertical. Your racquet is currently going back to a different place, and your racquet face to a different angle, depending on how far out of position you are
- Keep your shoulders between your feet ... upper body more vertical and use feet to adjust positioning, not different amounts of bending over at the waist

Many little details, but main things are continental right grip, upper body more consistently vertical and elbow not so far away from the stomach at full racquet-back.

MG

semi-western? Don't most players use Eastern on the top hand?

I think Agassi used a weak eastern and Jimmy Connors used a continental. I mention those two because they both hit with mostly straight arms at contact, so there might be a reason the straight/straight setup correlates with a mild top-hand grip.

I think I am using eastern grip for both as I use a s/w for r/h f/h and come around a little. I tried western with my left and was consistently hitting the ball too low.

Mountain Ghost brings up a good point regarding the grip. I didn't look at your grips, but the most common combinations that I'm aware of is cont on the lower (right for a rightie) hand and either E fh or SW fh on the top (left for rightie) hand. With those grips you should be able hit with bent/bent, straight/straight, or straight left/bent right arm structures. Other grips have been used and the grips affect the arm structures and the balance in hand dominance.

All that said, a guy in another thread brought up a good point in that it's easy to over analyze all of this. At the end of the day generally keep both arms close the body, turn your shoulders into the shot, and extend your arm out through the contact zone. If it feels good you're probably doing something right.

BevelDevil
02-12-2012, 12:20 PM
I think I am using eastern grip for both as I use a s/w for r/h f/h and come around a little. I tried western with my left and was consistently hitting the ball too low.


Whoa, you should make your bottom hand continental. That's by far the most popular bottom-hand grip. That will help close your racket face naturally. It also has a huge advantage of letting you quickly hit a 1-handed slice/chip/dropshot, and with some disguise. On top of that, it will feel a little more like your old 1hbh, which should be a help if you're going to hit straight/straight.

So I highly recommend you try that with an pure eastern on the top hand. (Continental is where your base knuckle of your index finger is on bevel 2, the next bevel forward of the top bevel. Eastern is where your left base-index knuckle is on the back bevel). That set up should allow you to hit plenty of topspin but with good plow through. You shouldn't need to go more extreme on the top hand.

Limpinhitter
02-12-2012, 01:54 PM
Hello to all TT ers. Here is a first time video of me using a 2 handed backhand after 20 plus years of a one hander. Does it look like it has a chance ? Please feel free to comment positively or negatively. It feels weird but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Cheers,

Greg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35wxMxbWflE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

A 2 handed backhand is basically a left handed forehand:

- Take the racquet back with your right arm straight and the racquet head up. Keep your wrists and grip loose and relaxed.

- Turn far enough for your back to be visible to your opponent.

- Lead with the hip on the forward swing. Allow the hip to drag your upper body and arms through the shot.

- When the hip starts to turn, the loose and relaxed wrists and grip should allow the racquet head to drop.

- From there, hit up on the ball with a left handed WW forehand and finish over the shoulder with your chest facing the target.

To me, Djokovic's backhand is an ideal model to emulate.

Limpinhitter
02-12-2012, 02:02 PM
Awesome. This is the stuff I was looking for. I wasn't aware but you are right. So basically it kind of IS a left handed forehand where you start the shot by loading on the back leg same as I do on the f/h?

Yes! Add this to my list above. After your adjustment steps, load the weight on your back leg and lead with your hip as you step into the shot. Keep your stance wide and low.

BevelDevil
02-12-2012, 10:52 PM
Awesome. This is the stuff I was looking for. I wasn't aware but you are right. So basically it kind of IS a left handed forehand where you start the shot by loading on the back leg same as I do on the f/h?

No. Don't load up the same way as a forehand.

The 2hbh is much more like a 1hbh than it is a forehand. The power usually comes from the rhythm of: backswing, step, swing. Not from exploding off your back leg.

Compare videos of forehands to those of backhands. On forehands, you'll see players push off their back legs (and often jump up) as they forward swing. This is the typical load and release.

But on backhands (both 2-hander and 1-hander), usually the back leg stays fairly bent and drags behind the body, often times moving the opposite way of the swing. Also, players rarely jump up as they swing (unless the ball is high and they are reaching).

This suggests a relatively passive role of the back leg compared to the forehand swing. I think this is particularly true for a straight/straight setup.


You should still want to get rotation on your backhand, but it's generated in a different manner than the forehand. Get a deeper shoulder turn and focus on the step-swing rhythm, which should be familiar from your 1hbh.

Also, you can get more rackethead speed by pronating the bottom hand/supinating the top hand at the end of the backswing (pointing the buttcap more to the left).

TennisCJC
02-14-2012, 07:34 AM
I like the double straight-arms at contact. Unusual, but worked for Agassi and is a more front-arm dominant shot, so hopefully your 1hbh experience will help speed up the learning curve.

I think this is good advice. John Yandell has an article about 4 types of 2HBH. Dominant Arm/Off Arm: 1. straignt/straight, 2. straight/flex, 3. flex/flex, and 4. flex/Straigh.

Since you are a former 1 hbh player, try option 1 and 2. You look like you are trying the classic left handed forehand approach but I don't think this is true. A 2 hbh is kinda like a L handed forehand but still different. Sometimes I think both arms together or let L hand take over at contact, but a L handed forehand style does not work for me. Agassi was a great example of a straight right arm and he even talked about using the right arm more than most pros.

Try thinking of it as a right handed backhand with more shoulder and hip rotation. Right arm, hips and shoulders rotate into shot and let the left hand take over the follow thru and wrap both hands over opposite shoulder.

gregor.b
02-14-2012, 12:25 PM
Whoa, you should make your bottom hand continental. That's by far the most popular bottom-hand grip. That will help close your racket face naturally. It also has a huge advantage of letting you quickly hit a 1-handed slice/chip/dropshot, and with some disguise. On top of that, it will feel a little more like your old 1hbh, which should be a help if you're going to hit straight/straight.

So I highly recommend you try that with an pure eastern on the top hand. (Continental is where your base knuckle of your index finger is on bevel 2, the next bevel forward of the top bevel. Eastern is where your left base-index knuckle is on the back bevel). That set up should allow you to hit plenty of topspin but with good plow through. You shouldn't need to go more extreme on the top hand.

Sorry,guys,I am getting a little confused here. I apologise for my lack of technical speak,but let me see if I have this right. My left hand 1 bevel back from top ( continental), and my left hand 1 bevel forward from top( don't know the name for this one maybe l/h f/h continental?). I had been using my l/h to try and control the racquet face completely but it was a little difficult with a high swing speed,not so bad at a low speed. So I am supposed to control it with a combination of the grips,both left and right hand? Is this right? Sorry, but the more I hear, the more confused I get.

One thing I forgot to add,it seems that the 2 hander stance needs to be more open than the 1 hbh because other wise it is a little difficult to open the hips.ie the right leg needs to be more forward, not so much left. Fair comment?
Cheers,
Greg.

rkelley
02-14-2012, 01:01 PM
Sorry,guys,I am getting a little confused here. I apologise for my lack of technical speak,but let me see if I have this right. My left hand 1 bevel back from top ( continental), and my left hand 1 bevel forward from top( don't know the name for this one maybe l/h f/h continental?). I had been using my l/h to try and control the racquet face completely but it was a little difficult with a high swing speed,not so bad at a low speed. So I am supposed to control it with a combination of the grips,both left and right hand? Is this right? Sorry, but the more I hear, the more confused I get.

One thing I forgot to add,it seems that the 2 hander stance needs to be more open than the 1 hbh because other wise it is a little difficult to open the hips.ie the right leg needs to be more forward, not so much left. Fair comment?
Cheers,
Greg.

You have two left hands. That's really confusing.

Assuming you're right handed, then your right hand should generally be in continental. That means your index finger knuckle is on bevel #2, one bevel clockwise from the top. There are other grips, but continental is the most common by far.

Your left hand can be in a left handed continental (bevel #2 counter clockwise, not recommended, at least not super common today, but it's doable), left handed E. forehand (bevel #3 counter clockwise, common), or left handed SW forehand (bevel #4 counter clockwise, also common).

The grips you use will affect the arm structures that are comfortable, the best contact point relative to your body, arm dominance, and ease of producing topspin. Generally the more western your left hand grip, the more dominant the left arm will be, the more you will hit it out front, and the more you'll tend to hit with topspin.

On the stance, if you hit closed stance then you can swing your back leg around during the follow through and end in open stance. You don't want to go too open on the two hander or you'll have trouble getting your shoulders cocked. I only hit open stance when I'm force to by a wide ball.

user92626
02-14-2012, 02:57 PM
I am always amazed about how many people here are willing to write out lengthy technical details of a stroke. Seems like overkill. Sport is activity that needs to be seen and applied for it to be learned. Reading to learn it is far from effective. If you insist on reading, I usually prefer analogies which you are already familiar with.

Anyway, OP, instead of reading, go to youtube and look up several clips of Nadal and Djokovic's slow motion BHs, what part of their BHs don't you understand? If a picture worths a thousand words, no amount of words is enough for that many clips. :)

rkelley
02-14-2012, 03:41 PM
I am always amazed about how many people here are willing to write out lengthy technical details of a stroke. Seems like overkill. Sport is activity that needs to be seen and applied for it to be learned. Reading to learn it is far from effective. If you insist on reading, I usually prefer analogies which you are already familiar with.

Anyway, OP, instead of reading, go to youtube and look up several clips of Nadal and Djokovic's slow motion BHs, what part of their BHs don't you understand? If a picture worths a thousand words, no amount of words is enough for that many clips. :)

And post #8 has clips. How convenient!

However it's also good to understand what you're doing on an intellectual level too - at least I think it is.

BevelDevil
02-14-2012, 05:22 PM
I am always amazed about how many people here are willing to write out lengthy technical details of a stroke. Seems like overkill. Sport is activity that needs to be seen and applied for it to be learned. Reading to learn it is far from effective. If you insist on reading, I usually prefer analogies which you are already familiar with.

Anyway, OP, instead of reading, go to youtube and look up several clips of Nadal and Djokovic's slow motion BHs, what part of their BHs don't you understand? If a picture worths a thousand words, no amount of words is enough for that many clips. :)

The problem with just watching videos is that you may look at the wrong thing, misinterpret what is going on, or ignore some key detail.

For example, many people overlook the grip, which is easy to overlook but of great significance.

gregor.b
02-15-2012, 12:24 PM
I am always amazed about how many people here are willing to write out lengthy technical details of a stroke. Seems like overkill. Sport is activity that needs to be seen and applied for it to be learned. Reading to learn it is far from effective. If you insist on reading, I usually prefer analogies which you are already familiar with.

Anyway, OP, instead of reading, go to youtube and look up several clips of Nadal and Djokovic's slow motion BHs, what part of their BHs don't you understand? If a picture worths a thousand words, no amount of words is enough for that many clips. :)

You can 'see' a stroke but you can't 'feel' a stroke. Watching it is easy but understanding what you are seeing after 20 plus years of doing something else (1hbh) is not always that easy. Anyway,if I can get the grip right then I am reasonably confident I can get the actual swing right,thanks in no small part to advice I have received on these boards.

user92626
02-15-2012, 12:55 PM
The problem with just watching videos is that you may look at the wrong thing, misinterpret what is going on, or ignore some key detail.

For example, many people overlook the grip, which is easy to overlook but of great significance.

Martina Narav...something.. once commented that it doesn't matter what grip you use as long as you know what the racket face is doing.

When it comes to grips, whether fh or bh, I just pay attention to the factor of support and strength. I don't obsessively keep my grips fixed. I suppose they are loose in the millimeter degrees or so for adjustments that take place during swinging and the fact that your strength and biomechanics vary from time to time.

BevelDevil
02-15-2012, 01:51 PM
Martina Narav...something.. once commented that it doesn't matter what grip you use as long as you know what the racket face is doing.


And Rod Laver once said, "Grip is everything." And I like Rod's groundies way more than Martina's.

Besides, even if you are aware of what your racket face is doing, it is phyiscally more difficult to execute some shots with certain grips, and physically easier to execute others with other grips.

That's why the modern forehand has migrated over to SW. Why not choose an easier route?

user92626
02-15-2012, 02:31 PM
Rod Laver said that?

The top 3 guys in the last 5 years use 3 noticeably different grips. I doubt if anyone would agree that any other grip than his own is easier to use.

BevelDevil
02-16-2012, 12:37 PM
Rod Laver said that?

The top 3 guys in the last 5 years use 3 noticeably different grips. I doubt if anyone would agree that any other grip than his own is easier to use.


And they all have noticeably different swing production.

Laver said "Grip is everything."
He didn't say, "One grip is better than other grips."

What it does mean is that if you have a certain grip, it will affect the optimal swing path, contact point, stance, etc.

If Nadal hit with a continental grip he would have to drastically change his motion to prevent the ball from ending up in the stands. Similarly, if Stefan Edberg were to use a full western grip, he could no longer use his goofy chicken-wing swing.