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View Full Version : How good is Djokovic' forehand?


joeri888
02-29-2012, 04:36 AM
Is it on par with Federer's and Nadal's currently? Or is it below that. It's a steady shot, but is it really as special as Federer and Nadal. Of course the former declined a little, so.. would you take Djokovic's current forehand over Roger's or Rafa's?

nereis
02-29-2012, 04:52 AM
How good?

Very?

/British accent

monfed
02-29-2012, 05:03 AM
Nole's FH is marginally below Fed's but well below Nadal's imo. Nadal's got the best FH CURRENTLY imo.

kragster
02-29-2012, 06:39 AM
At peak

1)Fed
2) Rafa
3) Djoker

Currently,

Fed=Rafa=Djoker.

They all look to be equally effective and deadly shots.

I think Nole's FH while being excellent is amplified by his ability to draw a weak shot from the opponent because of his excellent backhand. This then allows Nole to step into the court and take a full swing with the FH.

If Fed/Rafa had as good a BH as Nole, their FH would look even deadlier.

Clarky21
02-29-2012, 07:43 AM
Nole's FH is marginally below Fed's but well below Nadal's imo. Nadal's got the best FH CURRENTLY imo.



No way.

10nopes

tennis_pro
02-29-2012, 07:44 AM
very good.

phnx90
02-29-2012, 07:47 AM
No way.

10nopes

He isn't hitting as short as he used to.

Granted, that extra little bit of lead tape's taken off a bit of spin, so a little bit of that banana-shotting magic, but it's a more offensive shot than it used to be, even when he's not feeling particularly confident, methinks.

Evan77
02-29-2012, 07:51 AM
Nole's FH is very good. maybe not the best in the world but very good. I still think that one shot doesn't make you a great player. you need to be good at everything,

monfed
02-29-2012, 07:56 AM
He isn't hitting as short as he used to.

Granted, that extra little bit of lead tape's taken off a bit of spin, so a little bit of that banana-shotting magic, but it's a more offensive shot than it used to be, even when he's not feeling particularly confident, methinks.

Exactly. Glad to see some reasonable Ralph fans.

dudeski
02-29-2012, 08:17 AM
Exactly. Glad to see some reasonable Ralph fans.

I agree. It's very refreshing to see a Nadal fan that's is not desperately trying to prove that Nadal is no longer at his peak or even prime just to protect his legacy.

Vamos the mythical unbeatable peak 2008 Nadal who never loses (except for those 10 times in 2008 including two slam beat downs when he lost)!!!!

zagor
02-29-2012, 08:20 AM
First of all, I doubt you can dominate today's game as it is to the extent Novak did without a great FH. However Fed and Nadal have some of the best FHs of all time.

Peak for peak I'd rank their FHs:

1)Fed
2)Nadal
3)Novak

Right now:

1)Nadal
2)Fed
3)Novak

Where Novak has them right now is BH (and FH+BH combo), ROS, stamina and mental toughness.

purge
02-29-2012, 08:28 AM
not as good as feds. but pretty darn good

monfed
02-29-2012, 08:29 AM
First of all, I doubt you can dominate today's game as it is to the extent Novak did without a great FH. However Fed and Nadal have some of the best FHs of all time.

Peak for peak I'd rank their FHs:

1)Fed
2)Nadal
3)Novak

Right now:

1)Nadal
2)Fed
3)Novak

Where Novak has them right now is BH (and FH+BH combo), ROS, stamina and mental toughness.

Agree with almost everything except; why do you rate Fed's FH better than
Novak's currently? I ask because Fed's lost a lot of pop on his FH(as you may have noticed too).

Sartorius
02-29-2012, 08:29 AM
I think the FH was one of the main improvements (perhaps overlooked even, cause of the emphasis on the mental side) in Djokovic in 2011 and got him to raise his level. His backhand was always great anyway, and he always he had a steady forehand with which he was able to move his opponent around the court. Now it's truly a weapon that can consistently pack big punches.

dudeski
02-29-2012, 08:34 AM
I think Nadal has the best CC FH but Djokovic and Federer have better DL FHs. Right now overall Novak and Roger are about equal as far as FH. Nadal is a bit better overall because CC FH is what you use most of the time in any match.

2004 or 2005 Fed's FH was better than anyone else, ever.

monfed
02-29-2012, 08:54 AM
I think Nadal has the best CC FH but Djokovic and Federer have better DL FHs. Right now overall Novak and Roger are about equal as far as FH. Nadal is a bit better overall because CC FH is what you use most of the time in any match.

2004 or 2005 Fed's FH was better than anyone else, ever.

That's a very crucial point indeed. Ralph's hitting that bread n butter CC FH better than anyone else atm.

monfed
02-29-2012, 08:59 AM
I agree. It's very refreshing to see a Nadal fan that's is not desperately trying to prove that Nadal is no longer at his peak or even prime just to protect his legacy.

Certainly is.


Vamos the mythical unbeatable peak 2008 Nadal who never loses (except for those 10 times in 2008 including two slam beat downs when he lost)!!!!

Keyword being mythical. People forget that Ralph came very close to losing that 2008 wimby final and if he did he'd have only 1 clay slam in his supposed peak year. It would be another repeat of his 1 slam years(05,06,07).

namelessone
02-29-2012, 09:07 AM
I agree. It's very refreshing to see a Nadal fan that's is not desperately trying to prove that Nadal is no longer at his peak or even prime just to protect his legacy.



LOL, anonymous people on the internet can't do anything to upgrade or downgrade Nadal's legacy, let alone "protect" it. Some of us are just giving out our honest opinions about the evolution of Nadal's game in the last year or so, regardless of what anyone else thinks about it.

NamRanger
02-29-2012, 10:25 AM
LOL, anonymous people on the internet can't do anything to upgrade or downgrade Nadal's legacy, let alone "protect" it. Some of us are just giving out our honest opinions about the evolution of Nadal's game in the last year or so, regardless of what anyone else thinks about it.



I'm sure that you were saying Nadal's game was degrading all of 2010 when he took the FO, Wimbledon, and the USO AMIRITE.

MichaelNadal
02-29-2012, 11:03 AM
Nole's FH is marginally below Fed's but well below Nadal's imo. Nadal's got the best FH CURRENTLY imo.

o_O Omg I agree with Monfed about something? Wow.

wimble10
02-29-2012, 11:08 AM
I think his fh is about as good as his bh.

TennisFan3
02-29-2012, 11:26 AM
Right now:

1)Nadal
2)Fed
3)Novak


A big LOL at this.

How the hell is Nadal's forehand better than Federer. I don't care how bad Fed is these days, his forehand is still streetlights better than Nadal's is and ever was.

I mean I'm not a Fed fan, but the kind of stuff you read here gets ridiculous sometime (not from you Zagor BTW).

Nadal's forehand off-clay is not in the same league as Federer's. Nadal's ONLY legitimate offensive shot off-clay is his OFF-forehand. However he doesn't (cannot) use the i/o forehand enough. His bread and butter cross court does NOTHING in terms of penetration and is basically a extremely mechanically inefficient shot.

Contrast this to Federer. When his forehand is on song, he can take time away like no-one's business. If the ball goes to that wing, he makes something happen, almost everytime. Despite the fact that he's a step slower than before...

3fees
02-29-2012, 11:31 AM
I disagree totally:

Novak J--He had problems with his forehand and took some time off to adjust it, when he came back he got the No 1 slot, He's the number 1 in everything and his record proves it.

3Fees :)

pmerk34
02-29-2012, 12:25 PM
Nole's FH is marginally below Fed's but well below Nadal's imo. Nadal's got the best FH CURRENTLY imo.

I would agree.

pmerk34
02-29-2012, 12:27 PM
A big LOL at this.

How the hell is Nadal's forehand better than Federer. I don't care how bad Fed is these days, his forehand is still streetlights better than Nadal's is and ever was.

I mean I'm not a Fed fan, but the kind of stuff you read here gets ridiculous sometime (not from you Zagor BTW).

Nadal's forehand off-clay is not in the same league as Federer's. Nadal's ONLY legitimate offensive shot off-clay is his OFF-forehand. However he doesn't (cannot) use the i/o forehand enough. His bread and butter cross court does NOTHING in terms of penetration and is basically a extremely mechanically inefficient shot.

Contrast this to Federer. When his forehand is on song, he can take time away like no-one's business. If the ball goes to that wing, he makes something happen, almost everytime. Despite the fact that he's a step slower than before...

Nadal is number 2 in the world. Club players have "extremely mechanically inefficient shots" not all time greats.

MaiDee
02-29-2012, 02:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCT91QgbLG4&feature=related

Evan77
02-29-2012, 08:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCT91QgbLG4&feature=related
good video man, I really enjoyed it. thanks. all I can say is that Nole's FH is just fine :)

norbac
02-29-2012, 08:25 PM
It's probably the most humble FH of all time.

above bored
02-29-2012, 08:32 PM
Is it on par with Federer's and Nadal's currently? Or is it below that. It's a steady shot, but is it really as special as Federer and Nadal. Of course the former declined a little, so.. would you take Djokovic's current forehand over Roger's or Rafa's?
Djokovic's forehand is not spectacular like Federer's or unique like Nadal's, but it is a solid shot with good versatility. He can spin and flatten it reasonably well and take the ball early fairly comfortably, especially on the serve. I think he has a better forehand than Nadal for this reason.

Nadal's forehand is more limited and lacks versatility. He also struggles to take the ball early. The fact he has not won a tournament since Monte Carlo last year emphasizes some of its limitations.

Federer's forehand has no competition. It's the best forehand in the history of the game. Even today it is still the best forehand out there.

Clarky21
02-29-2012, 08:36 PM
Djokovic's forehand is not spectacular like Federer's or unique like Nadal's, but it is a solid shot with good versatility. He can spin and flatten it reasonably well and take the ball early fairly comfortably, especially on the serve. I think he has a better forehand than Nadal for this reason.

Nadal's forehand is more limited and lacks versatility. He also struggles to take the ball early. The fact he has not won a tournament since Monte Carlo last year emphasizes some of its limitations.

Federer's forehand has no competition. It's the best forehand in the history of the game. Even today it is still the best forehand out there.


Nadal won Roland Garros last year,which is well after Monte Carlo.

above bored
02-29-2012, 08:37 PM
Nadal is number 2 in the world. Club players have "extremely mechanically inefficient shots" not all time greats.
It's all relative. Amongst pros Nadal's forehand is not very efficient. Does not matter whether he's an all time great or not.

above bored
02-29-2012, 08:40 PM
Nadal won Roland Garros last year,which is well after Monte Carlo.
Okay Roland Garros and I would not say it's well after Monte Carlo. It's only a few weeks after.

above bored
02-29-2012, 08:45 PM
Another good thing about Djokovic's forehand is that he can change direction with it very well.

monfed
02-29-2012, 09:08 PM
o_O Omg I agree with Monfed about something? Wow.

Maybe my comment was wrong then. :lol:

MichaelNadal
02-29-2012, 10:39 PM
Maybe my comment was wrong then. :lol:

I was checking outside for flying pigs when I read your post lol.

IvanisevicServe
03-01-2012, 01:01 AM
Federer's got easier FH power than Djokovic. When I watch Djokovic hit forehands, I always feel like the ball doesn't jump off his racket as much as it should given how hard he's swinging. Federer's FH isn't the monster shot it once was, but it still penetrates the court more from more angles than anyone else's.

Winners-wise, it's no contest...Federer's the most offensive player of the Top 4 by a land slide.

monfed
03-01-2012, 01:07 AM
I was checking outside for flying pigs when I read your post lol.

Whoaa nice comeback!! Very Ralphesque. :) (no pun intended)

DeShaun
03-01-2012, 01:08 AM
I would take Novak's forehand over anybody's. It doe not ooze confidence strangely, but it is the least prone of anybody's to breaking down under enormous pressure; and since his game is predicated on maintaining balance off of both wings, his forehand complements his rock solid backhand and overall good service nicely.

Paul Murphy
03-01-2012, 03:03 AM
Federer's is still number one but I rate Djokovic's highly.
Nadal is hitting it too short, too often these days.
Djokovic's FH often has more penetration.
The point someone made that his backhand sets it up beautifully is well observed.

joeri888
03-01-2012, 04:01 AM
But maybe also if you compare it to guys like Berdych, Soderling, Del Potro or Ferrer.. is it better than those and just behind Fed and Nad? Or are there more players with a better forehand.

To me, Djokovic has a great forehand, but it's not the shot that stands out. What stands out are his amazing court coverage, current selfbelief and that backhand of his.

phnx90
03-01-2012, 04:12 AM
Exactly. Glad to see some reasonable Ralph fans.
10characters
I agree. It's very refreshing to see a Nadal fan that's is not desperately trying to prove that Nadal is no longer at his peak or even prime just to protect his legacy.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lztdxvhxmf1qlwivf.png

NetNinja68
03-01-2012, 06:28 AM
ND's FH is very solid but a half a level below Nadal's and Federer's. His overall game is just a half a step better than their's right now making him the "top dog" in the ATP currently.

djokovic2008
03-01-2012, 02:07 PM
Djokers fh was more aggressive in 2008 but now it's more polished, he manipulates topspin and angle more now and is very smart with it especially against nadal. I think nadal fh is an awesome shot in both an attacking and defensive way. Fed fh is super aggressive with no compromise which is a strength but can also be his weakness these days.

Clarky21
03-01-2012, 02:35 PM
A big LOL at this.

How the hell is Nadal's forehand better than Federer. I don't care how bad Fed is these days, his forehand is still streetlights better than Nadal's is and ever was.

I mean I'm not a Fed fan, but the kind of stuff you read here gets ridiculous sometime (not from you Zagor BTW).

Nadal's forehand off-clay is not in the same league as Federer's. Nadal's ONLY legitimate offensive shot off-clay is his OFF-forehand. However he doesn't (cannot) use the i/o forehand enough. His bread and butter cross court does NOTHING in terms of penetration and is basically a extremely mechanically inefficient shot.

Contrast this to Federer. When his forehand is on song, he can take time away like no-one's business. If the ball goes to that wing, he makes something happen, almost everytime. Despite the fact that he's a step slower than before...


Completely agree. Nadal's fh is crap these days. He gets no depth off of it and does nothing but go crosscourt with it. Fed's fh is still a million times better. ****'s is too. I would also say that Delpo has a better fh than Nadal does,and maybe even Berdych too when he's on. This is just one more area in which Nadal is losing ground. His bh died and was buried a long time ago,and now his fh is on life support as well.

MaiDee
03-01-2012, 03:48 PM
good video man, I really enjoyed it. thanks. all I can say is that Nole's FH is just fine :)

You are welcome. Glad that you like it.

jackson vile
03-02-2012, 06:40 AM
Novak's forehand used to be a lot better. He could keep you completely back in the court.

MichaelNadal
03-02-2012, 08:28 AM
Completely agree. Nadal's fh is crap these days. He gets no depth off of it and does nothing but go crosscourt with it. Fed's fh is still a million times better. ****'s is too. I would also say that Delpo has a better fh than Nadal does,and maybe even Berdych too when he's on. This is just one more area in which Nadal is losing ground. His bh died and was buried a long time ago,and now his fh is on life support as well.

Out of your mind. Watch any match from the AO this year. Rafa's forehand is completely brutal still. He had Novak scrambling and literally looking afraid of it at times. Find a point in the match where Rafa looked scared of Novak's forehand.

Clarky21
03-02-2012, 09:00 AM
Out of your mind. Watch any match from the AO this year. Rafa's forehand is completely brutal still. He had Novak scrambling and literally looking afraid of it at times. Find a point in the match where Rafa looked scared of Novak's forehand.


No way in the world is Djesus afraid of Nadal's fh. Not even a little bit.

dudeski
03-02-2012, 09:18 AM
Novak's forehand used to be a lot better. He could keep you completely back in the court.

Wait a minute, I thought Djokovic is the GOAT?

TennisFan3
03-02-2012, 09:42 AM
Out of your mind. Watch any match from the AO this year. Rafa's forehand is completely brutal still. He had Novak scrambling and literally looking afraid of it at times. Find a point in the match where Rafa looked scared of Novak's forehand.

Nadal's forehand is still EASILY better than Djokvoic's. Djokovic's strengths are more due to his speed, flexibility, movement, GOAT ROS and near-GOAT backhand etc.

All that said, there is NO REASONABLE way to argue that Nadal's forehand is good as Federer's. It isn't and it NEVER was...

Fed's forehand is one of the best shots in tennis history (besides Sampras' serve =, slam dunk and half-volleys).

coloskier
03-02-2012, 12:58 PM
Against Murray today his forehand wasn't even in the top 20. It always has been the stroke that occasionally goes on walkabout for him, and it definitely did today.

MichaelNadal
03-02-2012, 02:22 PM
Nadal's forehand is still EASILY better than Djokvoic's. Djokovic's strengths are more due to his speed, flexibility, movement, GOAT ROS and near-GOAT backhand etc.

All that said, there is NO REASONABLE way to argue that Nadal's forehand is good as Federer's. It isn't and it NEVER was...

Fed's forehand is one of the best shots in tennis history (besides Sampras' serve =, slam dunk and half-volleys).

Definitely agree. But I think Nadal's FH is closer to Fed's than you think. But on the Djokovic aspect, agree.

Apun94
03-02-2012, 06:56 PM
Is it on par with Federer's and Nadal's currently? Or is it below that. It's a steady shot, but is it really as special as Federer and Nadal. Of course the former declined a little, so.. would you take Djokovic's current forehand over Roger's or Rafa's?

IMHO, Jokovic's crosscourt forehand is better than anyone's, especially when hitting CC angles (maybe becuz of his grip). But overall, Fed and Nadal have SLIGHTLY better Forehands

joeri888
03-03-2012, 01:39 AM
Thank you all for your input which was based on some serious consideration rather than tardwars.

1HBH Rocks
04-19-2012, 11:25 AM
IMHO, Jokovic's crosscourt forehand is better than anyone's, especially when hitting CC angles (maybe becuz of his grip). But overall, Fed and Nadal have SLIGHTLY better Forehands

What grip is Djokovic using exactly? It appears almost full western... and for the sake of clarity, a full western forehand is when your index knuckle and heel pad are aligned with the 5th bevel.

Limpinhitter
04-19-2012, 11:33 AM
At peak

1)Fed
2) Rafa
3) Djoker

Currently,

Fed=Rafa=Djoker.

They all look to be equally effective and deadly shots.

I think Nole's FH while being excellent is amplified by his ability to draw a weak shot from the opponent because of his excellent backhand. This then allows Nole to step into the court and take a full swing with the FH.

If Fed/Rafa had as good a BH as Nole, their FH would look even deadlier.

IMO, currently Djoko's forehand is the best in the game. But, Fed's and Ralph's forehands were better previously, with the edge to Fed.

Apun94
04-19-2012, 11:36 AM
Nole's FH is marginally below Fed's but well below Nadal's imo. Nadal's got the best FH CURRENTLY imo.

Wow, i cant believe "monfed" saying something positive about Nadal!

Limpinhitter
04-19-2012, 11:42 AM
What grip is Djokovic using exactly? It appears almost full western... and for the sake of clarity, a full western forehand is when your index knuckle and heel pad are aligned with the 5th bevel.

Agreed! Both Djoko and Ralph have nearly full Western forehand grips.

1HBH Rocks
04-19-2012, 11:56 AM
Agreed! Both Djoko and Ralph have nearly full Western forehand grips.

I came across a tip from Jeff Salzenstein the other day... I usually don't give this guy a ton of credence since he tends to make short clips that do not really explain WHY he's advocating something, but I do see videos relate to what he was saying on that day. Basically, the more extreme the grip, the further your hitting surface should be facing the back fence. Djokovic falls in that line quite well. Anyway, here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX6vrAk-GDc

And, just for the sake of our discussion, we could see how Djokovic does it himself:
http://www.optimumtennis.net/images/novak-djokovic-forehand-backswing.jpg
It's rare we find the perfect picture, but this one illustrates perfectly the point.

Marius_Hancu
04-19-2012, 12:02 PM
178 kph today, not bad

1HBH Rocks
04-19-2012, 12:06 PM
Agreed! Both Djoko and Ralph have nearly full Western forehand grips.

I just fell on a video with Oscar Wegner and he's telling a guy how top players hit (Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, etc.)... but he's not the first I hear saying what he explains in that video; the first place I found that was on tennisspeed where the blogger made a research and share with us results and statistics of how different things affect the shot -- apparently, Oscar is right on track!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxUPDHegz98&feature=related

pmerk34
04-19-2012, 12:12 PM
Wow, i cant believe "monfed" saying something positive about Nadal!

hahaha true. Nadal's FH passing shot is an especially vicious demoralizing shot

mattennis
04-19-2012, 12:42 PM
Djokovic FH looks very western for me, whereas Nadal's FH looks almost semi-western for me.

zcarzach
04-19-2012, 12:46 PM
Better than mine.

Nathaniel_Near
04-19-2012, 12:49 PM
Nole's forehand is very good but there are better forehands on tour. It does have good disguise and it is quite accurate, but only holds up averagely when he is forced to half volley the ball and his passing shots, while good, are not awesome like Nadal's.

Polvorin
04-19-2012, 01:44 PM
First of all, I doubt you can dominate today's game as it is to the extent Novak did without a great FH. However Fed and Nadal have some of the best FHs of all time.

Peak for peak I'd rank their FHs:

1)Fed
2)Nadal
3)Novak

Right now:

1)Nadal
2)Fed
3)Novak

Where Novak has them right now is BH

^ yeah that

10agreements

Polvorin
04-19-2012, 01:48 PM
Definitely agree. But I think Nadal's FH is closer to Fed's than you think. But on the Djokovic aspect, agree.

I disagree. In the history of their matches Rafa rarely wins points going forehand to forehand with the maestro. He gets his points going to the backhand again, and again, and again.

kragster
04-19-2012, 02:11 PM
I disagree. In the history of their matches Rafa rarely wins points going forehand to forehand with the maestro. He gets his points going to the backhand again, and again, and again.

Do you have stats to back this? I've seen stats that Rafa goes to Fed's BH a lot more than he goes to his FH, I haven't seen stats that Rafa does very poorly going to Fed's FH.

I personally think Fed has a better FH but I'm just arguing the validity of your specific statement.

Fate Archer
04-19-2012, 05:49 PM
It's the best forehand on tour right now on a day-to-day basis, outside of Federer's on a good day IMO.

He can flatten out at ridiculous speeds, but can also hit with immense spin if need be and huge net clearance to generate consistency. As far as spin production and effectiveness it's not much behind Nadal in that regard, but is quite ahead when it comes to flat point ender strokes.

As good as his backhand is, it's his forehand that is his usual and preferred point building tool. The only thing that Nadal does clearly better than Novak on his forehand that I can think of is the passing shot and perhaps the running forehand when he's far too stretched (which is part of his passing shot production too I guess).

Nadal's forehand was awesome in the AO this year, but ever since it's been crapola in comparison. Nadal's forehand was best on tour only during some stretches of 2010, when he had amazing acceleration and pace on his shots. 2008 Federer's was still head and shoulders better.

swordtennis
04-19-2012, 06:17 PM
It's the best forehand on tour right now on a day-to-day basis, outside of Federer's on a good day IMO.

He can flatten out at ridiculous speeds, but can also hit with immense spin if need be and huge net clearance to generate consistency. As far as spin production and effectiveness it's not much behind Nadal in that regard, but is quite ahead when it comes to flat point ender strokes.

As good as his backhand is, it's his forehand that is his usual and preferred point building tool. The only thing that Nadal does clearly better than Novak on his forehand that I can think of is the passing shot and perhaps the running forehand when he's far too stretched (which is part of his passing shot production too I guess).

Nadal's forehand was awesome in the AO this year, but ever since it's been crapola in comparison. Nadal's forehand was best on tour only during some stretches of 2010, when he had amazing acceleration and pace on his shots. 2008 Federer's was still head and shoulders better.

Thank You.

Apun94
04-20-2012, 05:52 AM
It's the best forehand on tour right now on a day-to-day basis, outside of Federer's on a good day IMO.

He can flatten out at ridiculous speeds, but can also hit with immense spin if need be and huge net clearance to generate consistency. As far as spin production and effectiveness it's not much behind Nadal in that regard, but is quite ahead when it comes to flat point ender strokes.

As good as his backhand is, it's his forehand that is his usual and preferred point building tool. The only thing that Nadal does clearly better than Novak on his forehand that I can think of is the passing shot and perhaps the running forehand when he's far too stretched (which is part of his passing shot production too I guess).

Nadal's forehand was awesome in the AO this year, but ever since it's been crapola in comparison. Nadal's forehand was best on tour only during some stretches of 2010, when he had amazing acceleration and pace on his shots. 2008 Federer's was still head and shoulders better.

Although i do agree with you for the most part about Nole using his FH as his biggest weapon, but tell me this. If Fed's FH was "head and shoulders" better than Nadal, then how come Nadal was the no2 player for so long and constantly troubled Fed? Nadal clearly does not have the best BH, and his serve is mediocre, so how do you think he became world no1 and won so much. Sure, he fights for every point but that alone does not win you a lot(eg Ferrer). Nadal has always had a BEAST of a forehand and that is why he has won so much

pmerk34
04-20-2012, 06:01 AM
Although i do agree with you for the most part about Nole using his FH as his biggest weapon, but tell me this. If Fed's FH was "head and shoulders" better than Nadal, then how come Nadal was the no2 player for so long and constantly troubled Fed? Nadal clearly does not have the best BH, and his serve is mediocre, so how do you think he became world no1 and won so much. Sure, he fights for every point but that alone does not win you a lot(eg Ferrer). Nadal has always had a BEAST of a forehand and that is why he has won so much

Nadal's FH sure looked better than Federer's in that '08 French Open final massacre. I wouldn't say Nadal's serve is mediocre like Djokovic's serve is. He can hit harder if he wants to but many times he spins it out wide with great precision and effectiveness. I think Nadal's return of his opponents second serve has been his biggest weakness lately

Limpinhitter
04-20-2012, 06:09 AM
Nadal's FH sure looked better than Federer's in that '08 French Open final massacre. I wouldn't say Nadal's serve is mediocre like Djokovic's serve is. He can hit harder if he wants to but many times he spins it out wide with great precision and effectiveness. I think Nadal's return of his opponents second serve has been his biggest weakness lately

No! Djokovic's improved serve, although still not great, is definitely better than Nadal's serve. Nadal's serve is the weakest part of his game and the main reason why he couldn't hold on to #1 longer than he did, IMO. Nadal served well for most of 2010. Even then, it was not a great serve, only good. Hitting hard doesn't make a great serve.

Rjtennis
04-20-2012, 06:16 AM
Nole's FH is marginally below Fed's but well below Nadal's imo. Nadal's got the best FH CURRENTLY imo.

As far as consistentcy and spin Nadal's is the best, but Fed can hit through the court better and can take the ball alot earlier. I think Fed's is just a little better, but not by much. Nole is just a step behind those two.

Nole has a better serve than Rafa, no question about it. Rafa just spins most of his serves in.

pmerk34
04-20-2012, 06:17 AM
No! Djokovic's improved serve, although still not great, is definitely better than Nadal's serve. Nadal's serve is the weakest part of his game and the main reason why he couldn't hold on to #1 longer than he did, IMO. Nadal served well for most of 2010. Even then, it was not a great serve, only good. Hitting hard doesn't make a great serve.

Stop arguing over nothing. They both have average serves. Djokovic does actually have matches where he actually aces people in double digits so yeah maybe his serve is a little less average than Nadal's.

Most great servers crush it btw why are are you going to argue that too?

Rjtennis
04-20-2012, 06:21 AM
Although i do agree with you for the most part about Nole using his FH as his biggest weapon, but tell me this. If Fed's FH was "head and shoulders" better than Nadal, then how come Nadal was the no2 player for so long and constantly troubled Fed? Nadal clearly does not have the best BH, and his serve is mediocre, so how do you think he became world no1 and won so much. Sure, he fights for every point but that alone does not win you a lot(eg Ferrer). Nadal has always had a BEAST of a forehand and that is why he has won so much

Nadal's defense is the basis of his game. His foot speed, quickness and consistentcy has been what has made him so good. He has a great FH, but I think his defense has been what has kept him at the top.

phnx90
04-20-2012, 07:26 AM
No way in the world is Djesus afraid of Nadal's fh. Not even a little bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7_B3m5GzFk
Absolutely brutal FH; 162 km/h (101.3 mph). Look at Djoker's reaction...

MichaelNadal
04-20-2012, 07:50 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7_B3m5GzFk
Absolutely brutal FH; 162 km/h (101.3 mph). Look at Djoker's reaction...

Yep. That's the one shot that can still make Novak's arse sweat. Nadal needs to bring those lethal forehands out Sunday should they meet.

1HBH Rocks
04-20-2012, 09:45 AM
Nadal has always had a BEAST of a forehand and that is why he has won so much

A beast of a forehand, but not quite Federer's. Federer rarely produced mistakes off that wing, but hell of a lot more winners... his forehand is money, even at 30, going on 31, it's still big.

Nadal hits hard -- harder than anyone else --, but, in tennis, placement and court positioning rules the game. Federer has always been hitting quite early, has always been pretty consistent with it and, besides the power edge he used to have over so many people, no one could place the ball like he does. And Nadal did have a good backhand, by the way, even if it doesn't look like it is any good at the moment. Two years ago, besides Djokovic, I would have gave Nadal the palm for the best two hander on the tour.

pmerk34
04-20-2012, 09:48 AM
A beast of a forehand, but not quite Federer's. Federer rarely produced mistakes off that wing, but hell of a lot more winners... his forehand is money, even at 30, going on 31, it's still big.

Nadal hits hard -- harder than anyone else --, but, in tennis, placement and court positioning rules the game. Federer has always been hitting quite early, has always been pretty consistent with it and, besides the power edge he used to have over so many people, no one could place the ball like he does. And Nadal did have a good backhand, by the way, even if it doesn't look like it is any good at the moment. Two years ago, besides Djokovic, I would have gave Nadal the palm for the best two hander on the tour.

Nah not always. Del Potro pretty much pounded Federer into submission under a barrage of huge forehands in 2009 USO. All the top players crush the ball.

Limpinhitter
04-20-2012, 09:55 AM
Stop arguing over nothing. They both have average serves. Djokovic does actually have matches where he actually aces people in double digits so yeah maybe his serve is a little less average than Nadal's.

Most great servers crush it btw why are are you going to argue that too?

I just wanted to correct what I thought was way off. Djokovic's serve, especially his second serve, was a liability. But, both his first and second serves are somewhat improved over the past 2 years. With few exceptions, Nadal's serve has been mediocre at best.

1HBH Rocks
04-20-2012, 09:58 AM
Most great servers crush it btw why are are you going to argue that too?

No. Most excellent servers crushes with rather good placement. If you take a player like Federer, you don't get tons of pace, but you get good placement all the time and pretty good movement on the second serve. He's hard to break.

I'll tell you something true that you must never forget:
Placement and consistency > power

In equal terms, an improvement in either consistency or placement outweighs an improvement in power. Send an 85mph fast ball in a corner and you'll jam the hitter; send a 100mph fastball down the center and the ball will leave the park. Same with serves... you can hit hard, but if the guy has the skill to read your serve, you're just feeding him pace. Hit that serve in a corner and it won't matter if he can read it or not: he'll still have to move and adjust a lot more.

Didn't you learn that crushing forehands right down the middle can rarely be efficient? It's better to hit slower at an angle...

pmerk34
04-20-2012, 10:10 AM
No. Most excellent servers crushes with rather good placement. If you take a player like Federer, you don't get tons of pace, but you get good placement all the time and pretty good movement on the second serve. He's hard to break.

I'll tell you something true that you must never forget:
Placement and consistency > power

In equal terms, an improvement in either consistency or placement outweighs an improvement in power. Send an 85mph fast ball in a corner and you'll jam the hitter; send a 100mph fastball down the center and the ball will leave the park. Same with serves... you can hit hard, but if the guy has the skill to read your serve, you're just feeding him pace. Hit that serve in a corner and it won't matter if he can read it or not: he'll still have to move and adjust a lot more.

Didn't you learn that crushing forehands right down the middle can rarely be efficient? It's better to hit slower at an angle...


Your points are well taken but let's be clear, the top of men's tennis all hit very hard. You can't be number one and win multiple tour events every year without some serious firepower. Federer is usually from what I easily above 120 on his serves and ventures into 130. I stil consider 125-130 mph a fast serve.

Roddick has held an insane % of the time throughout his whole career without great placement on his serve. The sheer pace is overwhelming. His forehand lost pace and that has hurt his game.

At other levels of tennis you can win many matches without having much power. The top level of men's tennis require power and the ability to match power with power.

1HBH Rocks
04-20-2012, 02:50 PM
Your points are well taken but let's be clear, the top of men's tennis all hit very hard. You can't be number one and win multiple tour events every year without some serious firepower. Federer is usually from what I easily above 120 on his serves and ventures into 130. I stil consider 125-130 mph a fast serve.

Roddick has held an insane % of the time throughout his whole career without great placement on his serve. The sheer pace is overwhelming. His forehand lost pace and that has hurt his game.

At other levels of tennis you can win many matches without having much power. The top level of men's tennis require power and the ability to match power with power.

At the top of the game, it takes both placement and power. What does Roddick serve looks like against Federer unless he's slamming the corners? If he doesn't hit the targets, it's butchery against Federer because his return game is a top 3's return game, not a top 40's return game. If you want to be number one, you need everything, not just one aspect of it.

Besides, it's not what I explained... I said that in equal term a gain in power lead to a lesser increase in efficiency when compare to a gain in accuracy.

Jeff Salzenstein
04-20-2012, 03:59 PM
I came across a tip from Jeff Salzenstein the other day... I usually don't give this guy a ton of credence since he tends to make short clips that do not really explain WHY he's advocating something, but I do see videos relate to what he was saying on that day. Basically, the more extreme the grip, the further your hitting surface should be facing the back fence. Djokovic falls in that line quite well. Anyway, here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX6vrAk-GDc

And, just for the sake of our discussion, we could see how Djokovic does it himself:
http://www.optimumtennis.net/images/novak-djokovic-forehand-backswing.jpg
It's rare we find the perfect picture, but this one illustrates perfectly the point.
Thanks for sharing this tip. The grip does determine which way the racquet strings face. BTW, I make short videos because most players want quick tips that actually work so I am doing my best to make that happen. Thanks again for sharing.

Cheetah
04-20-2012, 11:29 PM
I came across a tip from Jeff Salzenstein the other day... I usually don't give this guy a ton of credence since he tends to make short clips that do not really explain WHY he's advocating something

Oh please. When you become an atp pro, serve over 130mph and then dedicate your time to teaching others as Jeff has done then maybe you can make a statement like that. otherwise you just look dumb.

PhrygianDominant
04-21-2012, 12:30 AM
Ok, you are tentatively on my you know what list w/ that statement. When you become an atp pro and then dedicate your time to teaching others as Jeff has done then maybe you can make a statement like that. otherwise you just look dumb.

I understand where you're both coming from, there are indeed two sides to this issue. As a teacher myself, although not tennis, I understand why Jeff does shorter clips. Most people these days are accustomed to really short clips. Jeff's format of one 'hot tip', demonstrated clearly, without bogging the message down with longwinded explanations and technical information definitely has its advantages. On the other hand, some learners really need to know why before they know how, or they won't commit to the process. I am one of these learners myself, and unless I have the background knowledge to not have to ask these questions, I have trouble with the 'hot tip' or 'just do this' style teachers. At this point I have learned enough about tennis to teach myself quite a bit, but at the beginning I probably wouldn't have gotten much from shorter videos. It takes all kinds, like most things.

Cheetah
04-21-2012, 01:45 AM
I understand where you're both coming from, there are indeed two sides to this issue. As a teacher myself, although not tennis, I understand why Jeff does shorter clips. Most people these days are accustomed to really short clips. Jeff's format of one 'hot tip', demonstrated clearly, without bogging the message down with longwinded explanations and technical information definitely has its advantages. On the other hand, some learners really need to know why before they know how, or they won't commit to the process. I am one of these learners myself, and unless I have the background knowledge to not have to ask these questions, I have trouble with the 'hot tip' or 'just do this' style teachers. At this point I have learned enough about tennis to teach myself quite a bit, but at the beginning I probably wouldn't have gotten much from shorter videos. It takes all kinds, like most things.

Jeff has a subscription website where he goes into greater detail so I'm sure the quick tips are serving 2 purposes: helping ppl who like the 'hot tips' and also giving them a sample of what's available on his site.

do you teach guitar by any chance? i'm more of a dorian type of guy but i do throw in phrygian for fun.

1HBH Rocks
04-21-2012, 10:31 PM
Oh please. When you become an atp pro, serve over 130mph and then dedicate your time to teaching others as Jeff has done then maybe you can make a statement like that. otherwise you just look dumb.

I know plenty of examples where the person was excellent at doing something, but couldn't explain it formally. Doing something well or even excellently doesn't entail understanding the principles that underline your achievements. Stating otherwise is a non sequitur and using it with a dose of sarcasm makes it also an ad hominen fallacy.

Then, going from the dedication someone presents to the quality of their intervention isn't any better... I can be very interested, put a lot of work and even be deemed good for it without being actually good.

On the other hand, my judgement wasn't fallacious, nor insulting. I was simply saying that I wouldn't consider valid any source of information if I didn't have any reason to do so -- and the reason I lacked is normally found in deeper analysis. I wasn't saying that he's not a good coach because I don't know if he is good; I wasn't even judging the content... I was expressing my doubt regarding the validity of this content and meant to inform people that they should treat this source with care before considering true the information he gives. That's all.

Maybe the "not too much credence" sounded as if I was insulting him or looking down on him, but it wasn't the case. Next time you bother criticizing people, try to begin by something else than an insulting statement and you might see that they are likelier to decode properly what you wrote.

1HBH Rocks
04-21-2012, 10:49 PM
Thanks for sharing this tip. The grip does determine which way the racquet strings face. BTW, I make short videos because most players want quick tips that actually work so I am doing my best to make that happen. Thanks again for sharing.

I wasn't openly criticizing your abilities, although it might have came off as if I was being almost insulting. I was simply pointing out that the seeming lack of explanations that would justify your tips as the most appropriate choice prevents me from being able to look at the tip as valid from the get go.

That's all.

AhmedD
04-22-2012, 12:56 AM
I think Nadal has the best CC FH but Djokovic and Federer have better DL FHs. Right now overall Novak and Roger are about equal as far as FH. Nadal is a bit better overall because CC FH is what you use most of the time in any match.

2004 or 2005 Fed's FH was better than anyone else, ever.

Nadal can't hit a down the line forehand that well, if he does, he bananana balls. He difficulty flattening it out so it travel in a straight path. Nadal's forehand shots always spin away from the opponent or curve in a certain if you've noticed. His Cross-court however is probably one of the best ever, because it's consistent and effective. Federer mostly goes inside out or in, and down the line. I only saw his cross court forehand standing during the FO 2011 to be honest, it was his key shot to beating Novak and stretching him out the forehand side.

Novak has a good combo of spin and pace, so he has the freedom to rip the shot, but it's not as good as either Federer or Nadal's at this point, it's a very reliable shot and effective in moving the opponent around. However, I still believe Federer even at this stage has the edge on the forehand. It's lost the pop because I think Federer isn't swinging as freely as he use to to be honest, plus with age, you loose a bit of fire power. At their respective peaks it's Federer, then Nadal, then Djokovic. Right now, Nadal slightly above Federer slightly above Djokovic. The rift isn't huge. Djokovic has the advantage however to dictate because of the backhand.

FeVer
04-22-2012, 02:20 AM
I'd rate Gonzalez's higher than Nole's.

Nadal's FH has got him every tournament he's ever won so it's obviously a great shot. Similar but to a lesser extent than Fed.

Between Fed and Nole, there was one telling rally at the USO last year which included a lengthy forehand exchange cross court. Both players red-lining and Fed blinked first. Maybe that just means Nole has more juice on the FH than Fed atm but it just goes to show he's not far off.

At the moment:

1) Rafa
2) Fed
3) Nole

Whole Career:

1) Fed
2) Rafa
3) Nole

rafan
04-22-2012, 02:53 AM
His backhand is frightening, i wouldn't like to be on the receiving end