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peRFection
03-03-2012, 10:26 AM
he said it from the heart. :)


http://o.imgbox.com/aaj8dbjD.jpg?temporary-url---please-use-the-provided-share-codes-instead

Totai
03-03-2012, 10:27 AM
That's like telling me that water is wet.

Rozroz
03-03-2012, 10:29 AM
link, please?

peRFection
03-03-2012, 10:34 AM
link, please?

court interview during the ceremony

tennis_pro
03-03-2012, 10:41 AM
Duh.

10 duh's

Agassifan
03-03-2012, 10:46 AM
Fed is the most popular player in tennis since Agassi

Tony48
03-03-2012, 11:11 AM
Dubai is a pretty even crowd. I remember last year they were vociferously backing Djokovic in the final. This year, Murray had a large contingent of support, but Fed definitely had his as well. I'd say it was 55/45 Fed in the final this year.

Hood_Man
03-03-2012, 11:18 AM
He doesn't always seem like the happiest guy on the court but Murray does have a good sense of humour :)

Rock Strongo
03-03-2012, 11:20 AM
Thanks for the spoiler.

joeri888
03-03-2012, 11:35 AM
Thanks for the spoiler.

It is no spoiler, not even implicitly and why do you come here If you dont know The result yet?

Hood_Man
03-03-2012, 11:46 AM
It is no spoiler, not even implicitly and why do you come here If you dont know The result yet?

We have got the Pro Match Results section for these things.

Plus I'm not sure "I think most of the crowd wants Roger to win" is something Murray is likely to say to the umpire on a changeover :)

TMF
03-03-2012, 12:13 PM
Thanks for the spoiler.

No one posted any final score or who won the match.

The match will replay on The Tennis Channel, so you could have wait before visiting this board.

Gonzalito17
03-03-2012, 12:55 PM
Murray is right, even if he played Roger in the Wilmbedon final fan support would be split. Also think maybe close to half of Spanish fans would rather see Fed beat Rafa. Fed is beloved everywhere. Greatest champion in tennis history.

TennisLovaLova
03-03-2012, 01:04 PM
I think most of the crowd hated to witness childish reactions from murray when he makes ue.
It's disappointing and weak

Evan77
03-03-2012, 01:09 PM
Andy was honest. it's as simple as that. yes, Roger is still a tennis star. this just reminded me of the French crowd last year at RG. I hated it.

Rock Strongo
03-03-2012, 01:37 PM
No one posted any final score or who won the match.

The match will replay on The Tennis Channel, so you could have wait before visiting this board.

Je suis un Suédois:p Also, looking from that pic I can ascertain what happened.

sureshs
03-03-2012, 01:46 PM
Real test is coming up in another desert. That is what counts. You will see a different Djoker there.

Shaolin
03-03-2012, 02:01 PM
Pretty understandable considering Fed plays better tennis and has a better personality.

batz
03-03-2012, 02:17 PM
Real test is coming up in another desert. That is what counts. You will see a different Djoker there.

The Cincinnati Desert?

CCNM
03-03-2012, 03:00 PM
I'm hoping that Andy M doesn't "roll over" for Roger.

Towser83
03-03-2012, 03:22 PM
Well I would expect so. Federer is a tennis legend, and will probably be the most recogised name in the sport along with Laver and Sampras. Nadal is pretty much a legend, certainly all time great. Djokovic is a tennis great in the making. Murray is a current slam contender at best. He is a great player but he's gonna have to win multiple slams just to reach the Djokovic level of greatness which is still some way behind Federer and Nadal. People generally support the guys who achieve at the very highest level. It's just like the biggest movie stars and the biggest rockstars will have more demand and attention than the good current guys who have not become legends yet.

Netspirit
03-03-2012, 03:24 PM
Federer is going to be like Pele, Jordan, Gretzky or Ali. People will use his name without mentioning the sport itself, so obvious it will be.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-03-2012, 04:00 PM
Federer is going to be like Pele, Jordan, Gretzky or Ali. People will use his name without mentioning the sport itself, so obvious it will be.

Not sure he will be as ubiquitous as those guys but he'll be close.

Bobby Jr
03-03-2012, 05:13 PM
Federer has already passed Gretzky. Outside of North America and a few select countries Gretzky is not even in the top 20 of best regarded athletes. Jordan, yes. Pele, yes. Michael Schumacher, yes. - Federer is also fortunate to be in this era where social media and media consumption in general has shot through the roof. Legendary antics/skills have so much more chance of being seen by millions of people than even stuff as recently as 2005.

True legend is when you become known outside of people who are remotely interested in the sport the person played. Federer has achieved that, even more than Sampras ever did imo. So many people know and acknowledge him as a legend haven't a clue about sport, let alone tennis.

Bartelby
03-03-2012, 05:19 PM
I don't think jordan would be known elsewhere if he didn't wear Nike.

Basketball is not that big in a lot of places and he wouldn't be on tv.

Schuhmacher, a car, tv - he's known everywhere

Lendl
03-03-2012, 05:24 PM
Watching it seemed maybe 95/5 in favor of Federer.

Dubai is a pretty even crowd. I remember last year they were vociferously backing Djokovic in the final. This year, Murray had a large contingent of support, but Fed definitely had his as well. I'd say it was 55/45 Fed in the final this year.

slickerthansleek
03-03-2012, 06:11 PM
I don't think jordan would be known elsewhere if he didn't wear Nike.

Basketball is not that big in a lot of places and he wouldn't be on tv.

Schuhmacher, a car, tv - he's known everywhere

In Australia, hardly anyone cares for basketball, but everyone knows what a legend Jordan is.

Netspirit
03-03-2012, 06:28 PM
Schuhmacher ... known everywhere

Yeah, Schumy is on that list of immortals too.

He was getting his *** kicked on regular basis, being around #4, until Mansell and Prost retired and Senna died. And then he got his weak era to dominate.

spiderman123
03-03-2012, 06:42 PM
Federer is going to be like Pele, Jordan, Gretzky or Ali. People will use his name without mentioning the sport itself, so obvious it will be.

Who is Gretzky?

kishnabe
03-03-2012, 07:03 PM
Who is Gretzky?

Wayne Gretzky a Hockey Player. Probably the GOAT of Hockey.

Smasher08
03-03-2012, 07:08 PM
Wayne Gretzky a Hockey Player. Probably the GOAT of Hockey.

Who is this Hockey?

monfed
03-03-2012, 07:28 PM
Federer has already passed Gretzky. Outside of North America and a few select countries Gretzky is not even in the top 20 of best regarded athletes. Jordan, yes. Pele, yes. Michael Schumacher, yes. - Federer is also fortunate to be in this era where social media and media consumption in general has shot through the roof. Legendary antics/skills have so much more chance of being seen by millions of people than even stuff as recently as 2005.

Pele - Umm NO. Football is 10x more popular than tennis will ever be and Pele is football's favourite son(although I think Zidane trumps him but that's another matter).

The rest is fairly OK.



True legend is when you become known outside of people who are remotely interested in the sport the person played. Federer has achieved that, even more than Sampras ever did imo. So many people know and acknowledge him as a legend haven't a clue about sport, let alone tennis.

Yup.

I'd say(in that order) -

Ali
Pele
Federer.

Ali is regarded by most as the greatest sportsman in history.

sbengte
03-03-2012, 08:05 PM
It is no spoiler, not even implicitly and why do you come here If you dont know The result yet?

In fact it sounds like something Murray would have said apologizing to the crowd after winning the title , so no spoiler :)

Bobby Jr
03-03-2012, 10:49 PM
Pele - Umm NO. Football is 10x more popular than tennis will ever be and Pele is football's favourite son(although I think Zidane trumps him but that's another matter). .
Oh, I didn't mean Federer had passed Pele... no way. I meant that he, Jordan and Schumacher were in the top 20 globally but Gretzky wasn't.

monfed
03-03-2012, 10:51 PM
Oh, I didn't mean Federer had passed Pele... no way. I meant that he, Jordan and Schumacher were in the top 20 globally but Gretzky wasn't.

Oh ok, my mistake.

Evan77
03-04-2012, 12:43 AM
Pele was very special. I really don't think we should compare Pele with Rog. I used to watch football at that time and Pele was simply bloody amazing. I still think the best player that has ever played the game. Pele was a genious.

TennisLovaLova
03-04-2012, 01:02 AM
Pele - Umm NO. Football is 10x more popular than tennis will ever be and Pele is football's favourite son(although I think Zidane trumps him but that's another matter).

The rest is fairly OK.




Yup.

I'd say(in that order) -

Ali
Pele
Federer.

Ali is regarded by most as the greatest sportsman in history.

The only thing is that even in his days boxing was fixed

Russeljones
03-04-2012, 01:34 AM
Fed is the most popular player in tennis since Agassi

Fed is the most popular player in tennis since tennis was invented. {fixed}

Big_Dangerous
03-04-2012, 02:05 AM
I don't think jordan would be known elsewhere if he didn't wear Nike.

Basketball is not that big in a lot of places and he wouldn't be on tv.

Schuhmacher, a car, tv - he's known everywhere

It wouldn't have mattered what athletic company he wore, he had his own logo... Anytime you get your own logo, you know you've hit the big time. Doesn't matter if it was through Nike, Adidas, Reebok, etc...

Although it does seem like Nike is one of the only athletic companies to give athletes their own logos - Jordan, Federer, Nadal.

Big_Dangerous
03-04-2012, 02:06 AM
Pele was very special. I really don't think we should compare Pele with Rog. I used to watch football at that time and Pele was simply bloody amazing. I still think the best player that has ever played the game. Pele was a genious.

I wish I could say the same for you.

:lol:

merlinpinpin
03-04-2012, 02:23 AM
Federer has already passed Gretzky. Outside of North America and a few select countries Gretzky is not even in the top 20 of best regarded athletes.

Have to agree to that, I had to google Gretzky to know which sport you were talking about (I would have said ice hockey if asked, but wouldn't have been surprised if he'd been a baseball or football player, that's how "well" I know him...) ;)

St. Bernard
03-04-2012, 03:06 AM
I'll be honest - living in Australia, I have brought up Gretzky and people look at me funny, he isn't a world-wide name.

Federer is extremely synonymous with the sport of Tennis, but I don't think he reaches the heights of Ali, Pele or Jordan. I don't think anybody argues with the first two, but people saying Jordan isn't well known should just look at how heavily referenced in pop culture he is, mostly in music - but he also is the name of a brand which has athletic apparel which has spanned out to multiple sports (not just basketball), not to mention being in quite a popular and well known (if terrible) film in Space Jam.

Russeljones
03-04-2012, 03:40 AM
I'll be honest - living in Australia, I have brought up Gretzky and people look at me funny, he isn't a world-wide name.

Federer is extremely synonymous with the sport of Tennis, but I don't think he reaches the heights of Ali, Pele or Jordan. I don't think anybody argues with the first two, but people saying Jordan isn't well known should just look at how heavily referenced in pop culture he is, mostly in music - but he also is the name of a brand which has athletic apparel which has spanned out to multiple sports (not just basketball), not to mention being in quite a popular and well known (if terrible) film in Space Jam.

Ali is mostly regarded by people who know next to nothing about his out-of-ring exploits. He was mostly a despicable human being and secondary to that a very good boxer. Difference between Jordan, Federer and Ali is that the former 2 were considered the best in the world, while Ali would struggle to make the top 5. Has humanity had decades to become accustomed to the legendary status of Federer? Not really, so you cannot fault him for that. In terms of helping his sport develop he is head and shoulders above anyone.

Nathaniel_Near
03-04-2012, 03:47 AM
I'll be honest - living in Australia, I have brought up Gretzky and people look at me funny, he isn't a world-wide name.

Federer is extremely synonymous with the sport of Tennis, but I don't think he reaches the heights of Ali, Pele or Jordan. I don't think anybody argues with the first two, but people saying Jordan isn't well known should just look at how heavily referenced in pop culture he is, mostly in music - but he also is the name of a brand which has athletic apparel which has spanned out to multiple sports (not just basketball), not to mention being in quite a popular and well known (if terrible) film in Space Jam.

I have to agree.

Nathaniel_Near
03-04-2012, 03:49 AM
Zidane trumps Pele? Funny, he's probably not even one of the top 5 footballers in history.

St. Bernard
03-04-2012, 04:04 AM
Ali is mostly regarded by people who know next to nothing about his out-of-ring exploits. He was mostly a despicable human being and secondary to that a very good boxer. Difference between Jordan, Federer and Ali is that the former 2 were considered the best in the world, while Ali would struggle to make the top 5. Has humanity had decades to become accustomed to the legendary status of Federer? Not really, so you cannot fault him for that. In terms of helping his sport develop he is head and shoulders above anyone.

I don't know much about Boxing so I'll take your word for what you're saying - but I think the reason why Ali transcends the sport is again because of his role in Pop Culture. Couldn't tell you the first thing about boxing, but his fights with Frazier are stuff which even I know about, and to a lesser extent the film that was made about a decade ago, it helps to make him more well known.

I'd also probably say Tiger Woods is more well known than Federer - or at least on par (pun intended) with him, whether or not that is good or bad publicity at the moment, there was a time where he transcended the sport of Golf.

Fedex
03-04-2012, 04:33 AM
Ali is mostly regarded by people who know next to nothing about his out-of-ring exploits. He was mostly a despicable human being and secondary to that a very good boxer. Difference between Jordan, Federer and Ali is that the former 2 were considered the best in the world, while Ali would struggle to make the top 5. Has humanity had decades to become accustomed to the legendary status of Federer? Not really, so you cannot fault him for that. In terms of helping his sport develop he is head and shoulders above anyone.

Are you serious? Ali is considered the greatest boxer, and sportsman, by a mile and that's after spending 3 years of his absolute prime in prison as a conscientious objector against the very ugly and dubious Vietnam War. Knock 3 years off Federer's prime and see how well he fares?
Ali with that handicap is still considered the greatest boxer. No heavyweight has ever had that speed, coordination, movement and skill.
You ever watched Ali in his prime? You ever seen Sonny Liston and how Ali destroyed and toyed with him to win the title.
Sonny Liston was like a bigger version of Mike Tyson except better and more vicious, so dominant and brutal before Ali, he was thought to be unbeatable.
Regarding being a despicable human being, you better ask the billions of people Ali inspired and influenced over the years. The most famous and popular man on the planet, not just sportsman, for well over a decade.
A man who had everything and gave it up for his religious and moral beliefs (even went to jail) then had to rebuild it all and became the most famous man and sportsman a second time.
Was never quite the same boxer he was in the sixties but still good enough to beat the best. And one of the bravest sportsmen fighting 10 rounds against Frazier with a broken jaw! Imagine. And later beating another, considered unbeatable boxer Foreman. Ali's insides were so badly beaten he was spitting blood after the fight.
Ali is the greatest in every way you can imagine.

Paul Murphy
03-04-2012, 05:30 AM
Federer's popularity is staggering, leaves Andy far behind.
That's not entirely a reflection on Murray either.
Federer's longevity in the game is impressive and plays a significant factor.

Homeboy Hotel
03-04-2012, 05:38 AM
I'm hoping that Andy M doesn't "roll over" for Roger.

Murray treats Masters 1000 matches vs top 3 like a true slam final and like its the last match he'll ever play. I'm sure he would never do that.

purge
03-04-2012, 05:50 AM
first there was tennis

then there was federer






about ali.. ali is such a legend because of a number of different aspects that all came together with him. few of them were actually related to sports. he was a fantastic boxer, certainly one of the best there ever were. but he was also a showman, an attention seeker (if not ***** lol), an egomaniac, a revolter and all that made his story go way beyond simple boxing and reach far into culture and even politics. that just isnt the case for any other sports icon and so ali stands alone up there

monfed
03-04-2012, 07:06 AM
Zidane trumps Pele? Funny, he's probably not even one of the top 5 footballers in history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiRv8vnt0eY

Pele - Zidane was the magician in the game.

Roberto Carlos(a brazilian) - he is the best player I've seen

Beckham - he's the greatest of all time.

Franz Beckenbauer - Zidane is one of the greatest players in history, a truly magnificent player.

Cesare Maldini(Italian) - I would give up five players to have Zizou in my squad.

Michel Platini states Zidane is one of the most skillful players the game has ever known: "Technically, I think he is the king of what's fundamental in the game – control and passing. I don't think anyone can match him when it comes to controlling or receiving the ball."


- In 2011 Uefa.com asked players, journalist and their users to crown the best player in the UEFA Champions League of the past 20 years, Zidane topped the poll ahead of Lionel Messi.

- At club level Zidane won the La Liga and the UEFA Champions League with Real Madrid, two Serie A league championships with Juventus, an Intercontinental Cup, and a UEFA Super Cup each with both aforementioned sides. He is one of only three players to have been FIFA World Player of the Year three times (Brazilian striker Ronaldo and Argentine striker Lionel Messi are the other three-time winners). He also won the Ballon d'Or in 1998.


My view-

If Fed's the maestro of tennis, Zizou's the maestro of football. He invented the "360" which is imitated by so many but noone can do it like he does. He looks "aerodynamic" with the ball.

He's the greatest midfielder to have played the sport if not the greatest footballer,that's for sure.

I'd say Tier 1 - Pele, Maradona, Eusébio, Zidane. But I feel Zidane's the best of the lot, just my two cents.

Sorry to derail this thread but I felt like I had to defend Zizou from the "not even top 5" claim. (no offence Nathaniel_Near, totally respect your opinion.)

Fedex
03-04-2012, 07:10 AM
Zidane is the players player. And the players should know best I guess.

celoft
03-04-2012, 08:02 AM
Zidane trumps Pele

:shock:

Nope.

Wilander Fan
03-04-2012, 08:13 AM
If you want the opinion of someone who really doesnt follow sports other than tennis, Ali wins this by a mile. No other sportsman transcended their sport the way he did. He retired 40 years ago and everyone knows who he is. He became a symbol for civil rights as well as anti-war.

For everyone else, its really a question of whether people who dont normally follow the sport know them.

The only soccer player that transcends is Pele. I have never seen him play but I have heard of him. I have never heard of Zidane or any of the others mentioned here before reading this. I had heard of Beckham but only because of the movie.

Jordan did nothing of interest outside the court but still everyone knows him. Federer is in the same class. Schumacher..I have never watched a motor race but I know the names Andretti and Schumacher so they qualify. Tiger Woods definitely qualifies. MLB or NFL? Interestingly no one comes to mind.

TennisLovaLova
03-04-2012, 08:29 AM
It wouldn't have mattered what athletic company he wore, he had his own logo... Anytime you get your own logo, you know you've hit the big time. Doesn't matter if it was through Nike, Adidas, Reebok, etc...

Although it does seem like Nike is one of the only athletic companies to give athletes their own logos - Jordan, Federer, Nadal.

Actually it's not just a logo. It's a brand.
And players are marketed as a product inside their specific brand strategy. Nike is the only company that specifically picks only the best of the best to market them as they do. There is no Djoko or Murray brand with adidas or ST, only specific lines.

Gretzky: even here in morocco we know who he is, there was a cartoon in the nineties with him, jordan and even bo jackson if you guys remember it.
Jordan was by far the most famous because the nba boom in the late 80's was followed by the olympics and the dream team. People at the time all around the world wanted to spend money in sports merchandising and jordan was a key product of that market at the time.
Federer is now all over the place, he's marketed as superior quality brand for excellence and taste. Nadal products are clearly targeting more young and casual customerq. Their positioning as brands are different and federer's aura is then much larger cause it also hits older and even feminine audience.

Zidane now... The guy was great but he didnt change the game as fed did in tennis, or even pele, maradona, cruyff, van basten or messi with the barca. He was technically great but other soccer players have been asked the same question about who's the greatest of all time and other names came up: ronaldo, ronaldinho... Goat title is impossible to pronounce in soccer, same for tennis (even though federer is the goat imo)

monfed
03-04-2012, 08:40 AM
:shock:

Nope.

Maybe not in terms of stats, but in terms of footballing ability he does. Anyway I've said what I've felt about Zizou. I'm fine with your disagreement,celoft. No worries. ;)

als47
03-04-2012, 10:58 AM
that's after spending 3 years of his absolute prime in prison as a conscientious objector against the very ugly and dubious Vietnam War

He was convicted and sentenced, but I don't think he ever served time in prison, much less 3 years.

Bobby Jr
03-04-2012, 01:11 PM
I..but I know the names Andretti
Andretti is a slightly odd situation when it comes to global recognition. The name has been in the media non-stop for 50 years because Mario, his son Michael, and his son Marco have all been drivers. The later two however achieved nothing globally (Marco is still racing however). They are almost regarded collectively - either by mistake or out of respect for their success in the business.

aprilfool
03-04-2012, 01:25 PM
I felt sorry for Del Pot. The crowd was extremely respectful and gave him a standing O, but the volume level when they announced Federer was louder by orders of magnitude. Same scenario for Murray. So his statement was honest.

Shaolin
03-04-2012, 01:31 PM
I felt sorry for Del Pot. The crowd was extremely respectful and gave him a standing O, but the volume level when they announced Federer was louder by orders of magnitude. Same scenario for Murray. So his statement was honest.

Federer has earned that treatment by winning everything under the sun for the last decade.

Russeljones
03-04-2012, 02:01 PM
Are you serious? Ali is considered the greatest boxer, and sportsman, by a mile and that's after spending 3 years of his absolute prime in prison as a conscientious objector against the very ugly and dubious Vietnam War. Knock 3 years off Federer's prime and see how well he fares?
Ali with that handicap is still considered the greatest boxer. No heavyweight has ever had that speed, coordination, movement and skill.
You ever watched Ali in his prime? You ever seen Sonny Liston and how Ali destroyed and toyed with him to win the title.
Sonny Liston was like a bigger version of Mike Tyson except better and more vicious, so dominant and brutal before Ali, he was thought to be unbeatable.
Regarding being a despicable human being, you better ask the billions of people Ali inspired and influenced over the years. The most famous and popular man on the planet, not just sportsman, for well over a decade.
A man who had everything and gave it up for his religious and moral beliefs (even went to jail) then had to rebuild it all and became the most famous man and sportsman a second time.
Was never quite the same boxer he was in the sixties but still good enough to beat the best. And one of the bravest sportsmen fighting 10 rounds against Frazier with a broken jaw! Imagine. And later beating another, considered unbeatable boxer Foreman. Ali's insides were so badly beaten he was spitting blood after the fight.
Ali is the greatest in every way you can imagine.

Your post was too long for me to consider the possibility you were joking. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I suggest you do some reading on boxing history, doesn't even have to be so in-depth. Two things are for sure, Ali was not even the 3rd greatest boxer of all time and he sure as hell cannot be commended for his morale.

Evan77
03-04-2012, 02:04 PM
guys, we can't compare collective sports like football with tennis. I, personally enjoy individual sports much more because you depend on your self only. I do remember watching Ali as a kid. he simply had such a great charisma. however, I haven't seen a box match in ages.

as for Murray statement, he is right. I'm thinking now how disgusted I'm with the French crowd. the way they behaved when Novak and Rog played last year... utterly gross. so uncivilized. I hate RG in a way. It doesn't matter who we support, but please show respect to both players on the court.

Nathaniel_Near
03-04-2012, 02:32 PM
Your post was too long for me to consider the possibility you were joking. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I suggest you do some reading on boxing history, doesn't even have to be so in-depth. Two things are for sure, Ali was not even the 3rd greatest boxer of all time and he sure as hell cannot be commended for his morale.

Strange opinion. Most boxing forums usually have Ali in the top 5 boxers ever and often in the top 3 and often no.2 behind Sugar Ray Robinson. So, I'm not sure how you spout your vitriol with so much self righteous confidence. Please do explain why your opinion which you voice as if it's so certain and irrefutable is so different to repeated instances of general consensus across boxing boards.

PS, and this is just pound for pound, as a heavyweight the most common ranking for Ali historically is no.1 (occasionally no.2 behind Louis). Heavyweights are the biggest and strongest and thus are the best. It doesn't matter how good Robinson was P4P, Ali would have spanked him. In short, in *absolute* terms, Ali *is* considered to be the greatest boxer of all time, but not pound for pound.

Nathaniel_Near
03-04-2012, 02:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiRv8vnt0eY

Pele - Zidane was the magician in the game.

Roberto Carlos(a brazilian) - he is the best player I've seen

Beckham - he's the greatest of all time.

Franz Beckenbauer - Zidane is one of the greatest players in history, a truly magnificent player.

Cesare Maldini(Italian) - I would give up five players to have Zizou in my squad.

Michel Platini states Zidane is one of the most skillful players the game has ever known: "Technically, I think he is the king of what's fundamental in the game – control and passing. I don't think anyone can match him when it comes to controlling or receiving the ball."


- In 2011 Uefa.com asked players, journalist and their users to crown the best player in the UEFA Champions League of the past 20 years, Zidane topped the poll ahead of Lionel Messi.

- At club level Zidane won the La Liga and the UEFA Champions League with Real Madrid, two Serie A league championships with Juventus, an Intercontinental Cup, and a UEFA Super Cup each with both aforementioned sides. He is one of only three players to have been FIFA World Player of the Year three times (Brazilian striker Ronaldo and Argentine striker Lionel Messi are the other three-time winners). He also won the Ballon d'Or in 1998.


My view-

If Fed's the maestro of tennis, Zizou's the maestro of football. He invented the "360" which is imitated by so many but noone can do it like he does. He looks "aerodynamic" with the ball.

He's the greatest midfielder to have played the sport if not the greatest footballer,that's for sure.

I'd say Tier 1 - Pele, Maradona, Eusébio, Zidane. But I feel Zidane's the best of the lot, just my two cents.

Sorry to derail this thread but I felt like I had to defend Zizou from the "not even top 5" claim. (no offence Nathaniel_Near, totally respect your opinion.)

Seen and read all this before. Johan Cruyff was probably a better pure footballer than Zidane and invented tricks of his own. Same goes for Pele and Maradona, and this is just picking out the obvious choices, plenty of others contend favourably or equally as well.

Zidane is my fave footballer ever, but it doesn't matter - he just isn't the greatest footballer ever, but is a legend of football. As for him beating Messi in that poll, let's see what happens by the time Messi has retired or hell, by the time Messi is just 27 or so.

PS, it's worth noting that Zidane didn't invent the 360 aka roulette football trick.

It's arguable whether Zidane is top 5 or not. He's definitely top 10 and possibly top 5 but possibly not.

Tell you what, Zidane isn't even the greatest European footballer of all time :)

Cruyff is rightly regarded by most as the better footballer, IMO:

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK8M23dsMKY
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19kISjvZ4Io

Eusébio and Di Stefano (controversial as he played for Argentina and Spain, yeah he probably doesn't count but yeah whatever) can also be reasonably argued for. In fact, is Zidane even the greatest ever player from France? Well yeah, he probably is, but there is also Platini to consider.

Marius_Hancu
03-04-2012, 04:44 PM
He also said:

---
Murray: Fed could retake No. 1 on quick courts

"If there was more tournaments on these courts, I think he could definitely be No. 1 in the world for the next few years," Murray told reporters. "It really suits his game well. Just so many of the courts are so slow now. It’s nice for us to get a change-up like here. Some of the tournaments are so slow it's tough against so many guys that are moving well and serving big. It’s become tougher and tougher to stay at the top of the game longer."

http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=16761&zoneid=25
---

Nice.

tennnnis
03-04-2012, 05:22 PM
we need more players like Fed or Nadal. Player like Murray should not be in the final anymore.

There are a lot countries with huge populations where tennis is not popular. ATP might want them to start watching tennis. But I do not think they would watch andy Murray's final for more than 3 minutes.

Mainad
03-04-2012, 05:49 PM
we need more players like Fed or Nadal. Player like Murray should not be in the final anymore.

Get away with you! You mean poor old Fed and Nadal have to play EVERY single final just because you don't like Murray! How do you think the rest of the ATP tour and proper tennis fans would feel about that? No, don't bother trying to answer!


There are a lot countries with huge populations where tennis is not popular. ATP might want them to start watching tennis. But I do not think they would watch andy Murray's final for more than 3 minutes.

And your evidence for this startling piece of information??

A much better idea would be for you to find something else to do rather than post silly comments on here about a person and subject you obviously know nothing whatever about!! :twisted:

Bye!!

monfed
03-04-2012, 10:00 PM
Seen and read all this before. Johan Cruyff was probably a better pure footballer than Zidane and invented tricks of his own. Same goes for Pele and Maradona, and this is just picking out the obvious choices, plenty of others contend favourably or equally as well.

I can't forensically prove to you that Zizou's got more footballing ability than Cruyff. To my eyes,it's Zidane and that's not gonna change. So, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.


Zidane is my fave footballer ever, but it doesn't matter - he just isn't the greatest footballer ever, but is a legend of football. As for him beating Messi in that poll, let's see what happens by the time Messi has retired or hell, by the time Messi is just 27 or so.

While I respect what Messi's done for Barcelona, his international career leaves much to be desired. Sorry, but Zidane's in another stratosphere and I can't see it changing until Messi ATLEAST wins one WC and some Euros for his country which is improbable at this point. Heck even Figo's contributed more to Portugal than Messi has for Argentina.



PS, it's worth noting that Zidane didn't invent the 360 aka roulette football trick.

Maybe he didn't,again it's arguable if he did since he uses a version of his own(it's called the "Marseille turn" btw) but Zidane popularised and perfected it.



It's arguable whether Zidane is top 5 or not. He's definitely top 10 and possibly top 5 but possibly not.

Sure.



Tell you what, Zidane isn't even the greatest European footballer of all time :)

Cruyff is rightly regarded by most as the better footballer, IMO:

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK8M23dsMKY
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19kISjvZ4Io


Nice vids. Here's an interesting one comparing the two in World Cups-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEyL6aGIAMM

BTW, Cruyff's never won a WC for the Dutch so Zizou 1 , Cruyff 0. ;)

Although I don't need Pele's approval of Zizou to influence my opinion but Zizou is a magician in most people's eyes(not just Pele's) and that's the highest compliment a footballer could get.


Eusébio and Di Stefano (controversial as he played for Argentina and Spain, yeah he probably doesn't count but yeah whatever) can also be reasonably argued for. In fact, is Zidane even the greatest ever player from France? Well yeah, he probably is, but there is also Platini to consider.

Zidane led France to the '98 World Cup and '00 Euro and '06 World Cup final(single-handedly at the age of 34!) whereas Platini only won the Euro. Difficult to compare since they played in two separate eras but Zidane's the more accomplished. Simply put, Zidane's the Davinci of football.

purge
03-04-2012, 10:24 PM
Although I don't need Pele's approval of Zizou to influence my opinion but Zizou is a magician in most people's eyes
so is santoro. but no one will call him the greatest ever.
doesnt make sense to compare individual sports to team sports in that regard anyway. its not cruyffs fault he could never win a WC as the quality of 1 player doesnt win or lose a title

stormholloway
03-04-2012, 10:52 PM
Zidane trumps Pele? Funny, he's probably not even one of the top 5 footballers in history.

That's just ridiculous.

monfed
03-04-2012, 10:53 PM
so is santoro. but no one will call him the greatest ever.

Because his accomplishments don't show for it, unlike Zidane who's won everything there is to win just like Federer .(Kindof took my quote out of context there.)



doesnt make sense to compare individual sports to team sports in that regard anyway. its not cruyffs fault he could never win a WC as the quality of 1 player doesnt win or lose a title

I agree with you to a large extent but the WC is the biggest prize in football and if you're considered the greatest player ever then not having a WC is a big hole in your resume. It indicates that the said player didn't influence/elevate his team to a level which could've won them the WC.
BTW, Maradona did it single-handedly for Argentina so he might have something to say on this subject.

stormholloway
03-04-2012, 10:53 PM
so is santoro. but no one will call him the greatest ever.

Santoro wasn't a champion at the highest level.

monfed
03-04-2012, 10:54 PM
That's just ridiculous.

What's ridiculous, the former or the latter?

Russeljones
03-04-2012, 11:08 PM
Strange opinion. Most boxing forums usually have Ali in the top 5 boxers ever and often in the top 3 and often no.2 behind Sugar Ray Robinson. So, I'm not sure how you spout your vitriol with so much self righteous confidence. Please do explain why your opinion which you voice as if it's so certain and irrefutable is so different to repeated instances of general consensus across boxing boards.

PS, and this is just pound for pound, as a heavyweight the most common ranking for Ali historically is no.1 (occasionally no.2 behind Louis). Heavyweights are the biggest and strongest and thus are the best. It doesn't matter how good Robinson was P4P, Ali would have spanked him. In short, in *absolute* terms, Ali *is* considered to be the greatest boxer of all time, but not pound for pound.

Joe Louis
Sugar Ray Robinson
Jack Dempsey
Manny Pacquiao
Floyd Mayweather Jr.

A quick list of 5 better (or 'just greater' in the case of Jack Dempsey) boxers. And he would fail to land a punch on many modern boxers.

No need to get into technicalities with an ignoramus. The fact that you refer to forum rankings is telling I am afraid.

The simple fact is, the human tragedy of his condition should not serve as a memory wipe for his record. He was a member of the Nation of Islam, supported segregation (even to to point of declaring coloured women deserved to die for being in interracial relationships) and it goes on and on.

I stand by my original statement. Most people who rate Ali as the greatest sportsman ever don't know much about the history of boxing (and they don't have to, we can't all know everything).

And comparing Zidane with Platini is laughable. I suggest you look up the Brazil national debt write-off coinciding with France's world cup win. Cruyff, Paul Scholes, Xavi and David Beckham are easily as good if not better midfielders.

monfed
03-04-2012, 11:35 PM
Joe Louis
Sugar Ray Robinson
Jack Dempsey
Manny Pacquiao
Floyd Mayweather Jr.

A quick list of 5 better (or 'just greater' in the case of Jack Dempsey) boxers. And he would fail to land a punch on many modern boxers.

No need to get into technicalities with an ignoramus. The fact that you refer to forum rankings is telling I am afraid.

The simple fact is, the human tragedy of his condition should not serve as a memory wipe for his record. He was a member of the Nation of Islam, supported segregation (even to to point of declaring coloured women deserved to die for being in interracial relationships) and it goes on and on.

I stand by my original statement. Most people who rate Ali as the greatest sportsman ever don't know much about the history of boxing (and they don't have to, we can't all know everything).

And comparing Zidane with Platini is laughable. I suggest you look up the Brazil national debt write-off coinciding with France's world cup win. Cruyff, Paul Scholes, Xavi and David Beckham are easily as good if not better midfielders.

Credibility lost due to part in bold. :lol:

Russeljones
03-04-2012, 11:56 PM
Credibility lost due to part in bold. :lol:

Nope. The players I mention all possess something Zidane never had. A killer pass. In the cases of Cruyff, Scholes and Beckham they managed to display this when not playing for a vastly superior side routinely breaking transfer records (as was the case throughout Zidane's gloryhunting career). When France was back to normal so was Zidane, see 2002 and 2006 World Cups and 2004 European Championship. A lot of Zidane's legacy is gilted with the achievements of the clubs he played for. And best player of the year is almost always awarded to a player of a CL (old EC) winning team. Good example of this is Messi getting the award ahead of Ronaldo even if the latter has a greater impact on his team and better individual results.

You might like him, you might rate him, but he is not the best ever even in his position. (You compare him to Platini so I guess you are under the misapprehension that the latter was a midfielder probably because he was also considered one of the best passers of all time. He was in fact a striker - top scorer in the Serie A in three conseutive seasons).

peRFection
03-05-2012, 12:14 AM
Joe Louis
Sugar Ray Robinson
Jack Dempsey
Manny Pacquiao
Floyd Mayweather Jr.

A quick list of 5 better (or 'just greater' in the case of Jack Dempsey) boxers. And he would fail to land a punch on many modern boxers.

No need to get into technicalities with an ignoramus. The fact that you refer to forum rankings is telling I am afraid.

The simple fact is, the human tragedy of his condition should not serve as a memory wipe for his record. He was a member of the Nation of Islam, supported segregation (even to to point of declaring coloured women deserved to die for being in interracial relationships) and it goes on and on.

I stand by my original statement. Most people who rate Ali as the greatest sportsman ever don't know much about the history of boxing (and they don't have to, we can't all know everything).

And comparing Zidane with Platini is laughable. I suggest you look up the Brazil national debt write-off coinciding with France's world cup win. Cruyff, Paul Scholes, Xavi and David Beckham are easily as good if not better midfielders.

I don't wanna get involved but i had to.... Comparing Zizo with these names is the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life. sorry buddy but that's pure stupid. good day

Wilander Fan
03-05-2012, 12:21 AM
Another example is Lance Armstrong. No one in the US knows anything about cycling but they know his name. Again with the soccer players, alot of people know them only because alot of people follow the sport. People who do not follow soccer have no idea who these people are. By definition, they do not transcend their sport.

Fedex
03-05-2012, 02:12 AM
He was convicted and sentenced, but I don't think he ever served time in prison, much less 3 years.

Main point being he gave up 3 years of his career whilst at the top of his game.

Russeljones
03-05-2012, 02:34 AM
Main point being he gave up 3 years of his career whilst at the top of his game.

It was that or risk personal injury to fight for his country.

SempreSami
03-05-2012, 03:32 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiRv8vnt0eY

Pele - Zidane was the magician in the game.

Roberto Carlos(a brazilian) - he is the best player I've seen

Beckham - he's the greatest of all time.

Franz Beckenbauer - Zidane is one of the greatest players in history, a truly magnificent player.

Cesare Maldini(Italian) - I would give up five players to have Zizou in my squad.

Michel Platini states Zidane is one of the most skillful players the game has ever known: "Technically, I think he is the king of what's fundamental in the game – control and passing. I don't think anyone can match him when it comes to controlling or receiving the ball."


- In 2011 Uefa.com asked players, journalist and their users to crown the best player in the UEFA Champions League of the past 20 years, Zidane topped the poll ahead of Lionel Messi.

- At club level Zidane won the La Liga and the UEFA Champions League with Real Madrid, two Serie A league championships with Juventus, an Intercontinental Cup, and a UEFA Super Cup each with both aforementioned sides. He is one of only three players to have been FIFA World Player of the Year three times (Brazilian striker Ronaldo and Argentine striker Lionel Messi are the other three-time winners). He also won the Ballon d'Or in 1998.


My view-

If Fed's the maestro of tennis, Zizou's the maestro of football. He invented the "360" which is imitated by so many but noone can do it like he does. He looks "aerodynamic" with the ball.

He's the greatest midfielder to have played the sport if not the greatest footballer,that's for sure.

I'd say Tier 1 - Pele, Maradona, Eusébio, Zidane. But I feel Zidane's the best of the lot, just my two cents.

Sorry to derail this thread but I felt like I had to defend Zizou from the "not even top 5" claim. (no offence Nathaniel_Near, totally respect your opinion.)

U mad? The Marseille roulette's been used since the 70s.

Nathaniel_Near
03-05-2012, 05:55 AM
Joe Louis
Sugar Ray Robinson
Jack Dempsey
Manny Pacquiao
Floyd Mayweather Jr.

A quick list of 5 better (or 'just greater' in the case of Jack Dempsey) boxers. And he would fail to land a punch on many modern boxers.

No need to get into technicalities with an ignoramus. The fact that you refer to forum rankings is telling I am afraid.

The simple fact is, the human tragedy of his condition should not serve as a memory wipe for his record. He was a member of the Nation of Islam, supported segregation (even to to point of declaring coloured women deserved to die for being in interracial relationships) and it goes on and on.

I stand by my original statement. Most people who rate Ali as the greatest sportsman ever don't know much about the history of boxing (and they don't have to, we can't all know everything).

And comparing Zidane with Platini is laughable. I suggest you look up the Brazil national debt write-off coinciding with France's world cup win. Cruyff, Paul Scholes, Xavi and David Beckham are easily as good if not better midfielders.

Manny Pacquiao has only just begun to be considered for top 10 lists, nevermind top 5. Mayweather tends to make it into the top 30 all time p4p, should be higher but he's so hated that it mars people's perception. Knowledgable boxing historians have often ranked Ali very very high in the list and all have rated him higher than all but one of those above names, far more often than not. The one name is obviously Sugar Ray Robinson. It's a bit funny that you've chosen to mention Dempsey and yet have omitted Armstrong or even Duran.

PS, as far as I'm concerned, Zidane is greater/better than Platini, but I've seen the argument come up countless times, so it's debated often among people who know an absolute ****load about football.

In short, it would take a person who know very little about boxing to conclude that Ali even without an argument for top 5 all time. Many exceptionally knowledgeable fans of the sport think otherwise and rightly place him inside the top 5 , often 3 and often enough 2. Number 1 is almost always reserved for Sugar Ray Robinson.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-05-2012, 06:15 AM
Most experts put Ali in the top 3 consistently. Anyone who doesn't probably has ulterior motives or hate for Ali.

Shady_Sawyer
03-05-2012, 07:13 AM
Most experts put Ali in the top 3 consistently. Anyone who doesn't probably has ulterior motives or hate for Ali.



I dont think there is any question of Ali being in the top 3. HE IS ALL THE TIME GREATEST BOXER EVER.

Russeljones
03-05-2012, 07:15 AM
Most experts put Ali in the top 3 consistently. Anyone who doesn't probably has ulterior motives or hate for Ali.

Or knows better than most.

Russeljones
03-05-2012, 07:43 AM
Manny Pacquiao has only just begun to be considered for top 10 lists, nevermind top 5. Mayweather tends to make it into the top 30 all time p4p, should be higher but he's so hated that it mars people's perception. Knowledgable boxing historians have often ranked Ali very very high in the list and all have rated him higher than all but one of those above names, far more often than not. The one name is obviously Sugar Ray Robinson. It's a bit funny that you've chosen to mention Dempsey and yet have omitted Armstrong or even Duran.

PS, as far as I'm concerned, Zidane is greater/better than Platini, but I've seen the argument come up countless times, so it's debated often among people who know an absolute ****load about football.

In short, it would take a person who know very little about boxing to conclude that Ali even without an argument for top 5 all time. Many exceptionally knowledgeable fans of the sport think otherwise and rightly place him inside the top 5 , often 3 and often enough 2. Number 1 is almost always reserved for Sugar Ray Robinson.

It's not enough to say most people say blah blah to make it a strong argument for considering someone the greatest ever. I said in boxing terms he is not the greatest and in purely human terms even less so. You cannot argue with my interpretation of boxing history because it's pointless. I give different weight to Ali's achievements than you probably do, the same we give different weight to Sampras wins and Connors wins etc.

Pacquiao is actually the world's first 4 weight lineal world champion, he is the champion of 8 different divisions (also a world first) and is regarded for a long time as probably the 2nd greatest P4P boxer of all time after SRR. The fact that you only recently came across him doesn't change the stats.

Vitali Klitchko has 2 losses by way of injuries, both times way ahead in the scoring cards. Never been knocked down in 46 pro fights. Not knocked out (like Ali was at the hands of Holmes) knocked down.

Jack Dempsey popularized pro boxing in the USA to an extent unmatched probably until the Klitchko era (i.e. tens of thousands filling stadiums to watch). His contribution made it possible for all the greats who followed to achieve what they did.

Do I really have to point out why I think Floyd Mayweather Jr. is a greater boxer than Ali? Alright he beats women, can't argue if he's a better human (and quite frankly I don't like him at all) but in his prime he was a sizzling can't-live-with-him mercurial talent that Ali never was. Ali had lots of gimmicks (rubbing an opponent's eyes into the ropes on one occasion) but never a boxer's Da Vinci like Pac man and Mayweather in more recent times and Sugar Ray back in the day.

Louis.... 140 consecutive months world champion with 25 title defenses. Stopping power Ali can't hold a candle to.

Again, I don't really understand how you plan to convince someone by saying "most would say that" but either way I am unmoved. Don't mind mine being the unpopular view but objectively speaking the majority often get it wrong, in all walks of life :wink:

And the Zidane argument is dead in the water really. He is not better than Platini, he is not better than Socrates, he is not better than Scholes, he is not better than Xavi or Iniesta, one might even add not better than Gasoigne who Sir Alex Ferguson recently said was probably good enough to play for Brazil.

monfed
03-05-2012, 07:51 AM
It's not enough to say most people say blah blah to make it a strong argument for considering someone the greatest ever. I said in boxing terms he is not the greatest and in purely human terms even less so. You cannot argue with my interpretation of boxing history because it's pointless. I give different weight to Ali's achievements than you probably do, the same we give different weight to Sampras wins and Connors wins etc.

Pacquiao is actually the world's first 4 weight lineal world champion, he is the champion of 8 different divisions (also a world first) and is regarded for a long time as probably the 2nd greatest P4P boxer of all time after SRR. The fact that you only recently came across him doesn't change the stats.

Vitali Klitchko has 2 losses by way of injuries, both times way ahead in the scoring cards. Never been knocked down in 46 pro fights. Not knocked out (like Ali was at the hands of Holmes) knocked down.

Jack Dempsey popularized pro boxing in the USA to an extent unmatched probably until the Klitchko era (i.e. tens of thousands filling stadiums to watch). His contribution made it possible for all the greats who followed to achieve what they did.

Do I really have to point out why I think Floyd Mayweather Jr. is a greater boxer than Ali? Alright he beats women, can't argue if he's a better human (and quite frankly I don't like him at all) but in his prime he was a sizzling can't-live-with-him mercurial talent that Ali never was. Ali had lots of gimmicks (rubbing an opponent's eyes into the ropes on one occasion) but never a boxer's Da Vinci like Pac man and Mayweather in more recent times and Sugar Ray back in the day.

Louis.... 140 consecutive months world champion with 25 title defenses. Stopping power Ali can't hold a candle to.

Again, I don't really understand how you plan to convince someone by saying "most would say that" but either way I am unmoved. Don't mind mine being the unpopular view but objectively speaking the majority often get it wrong, in all walks of life :wink:

And the Zidane argument is dead in the water really. He is not better than Platini, he is not better than Socrates, he is not better than Scholes, he is not better than Xavi or Iniesta, one might even add not better than Gasoigne who Sir Alex Ferguson recently said was probably good enough to play for Brazil.

Sigworthy stuff. :lol:

Russeljones
03-05-2012, 08:03 AM
Sigworthy stuff. :lol:

"Scholes is undoubtedly the best midfielder of his generation."
Zinedine Zidane

"My toughest opponent? Scholes of Manchester. He is the complete midfielder."
Zinedine Zidane

Sig this.

purge
03-05-2012, 09:01 AM
I agree with you to a large extent but the WC is the biggest prize in football and if you're considered the greatest player ever then not having a WC is a big hole in your resume. It indicates that the said player didn't influence/elevate his team to a level which could've won them the WC.
BTW, Maradona did it single-handedly for Argentina so he might have something to say on this subject.

but then youre pretty much also saying that federer could never be considered the GOAT either because the biggest achievement in tennis is the grand slam or even the golden slam and fed doesnt have it.
and also if djoko would go on to win it this year and then end his career right afterwards he would be the unquestioned GOAT

monfed
03-05-2012, 09:08 AM
"Scholes is undoubtedly the best midfielder of his generation."
Zinedine Zidane

Zidane also considers Maradona to be the greatest and his idol,so take what you want from it. Beckham who for a large part of his career played more with Scholes than Zidane , calls Zidane the greatest.


"My toughest opponent? Scholes of Manchester. He is the complete midfielder."
Zinedine Zidane
Sig this.


Federer considers Nadal to be his toughest opponent. Maybe we should call Ralph better than Federer?

FYI Scholes's contribution to England isn't noteworthy to say the least.

monfed
03-05-2012, 09:32 AM
but then youre pretty much also saying that federer could never be considered the GOAT either because the biggest achievement in tennis is the grand slam or even the golden slam and fed doesnt have it.

The analogy of comparing CYGS to winning the WC doesn't hold because every footballer's dream is to win the WC just like every tennis player's dream is to win a major(especially Wimbledon).
How many tennis players have made it their life's ambition to win the CYGS? It's given a lot of credit for mostly in TW but the reality is different. CYGS is just something that happens.Ask any legendary footballer if they felt their career felt complete without winning the WC ,their answer would most likely be No. Can't say the same for the CYGS.



and also if djoko would go on to win it this year and then end his career right afterwards he would be the unquestioned GOAT

Most people would say slam total should be the yardstick for GOAT. Infact if Djoko won the CYGS it would take some of the shine off of CYGS especially if he ended his career with just 8 slams.

Fedex
03-05-2012, 09:43 AM
The guy had everything. Truly the greatest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnzofi_QltI

Russeljones
03-05-2012, 09:53 AM
Zidane also considers Maradona to be the greatest and his idol,so take what you want from it. Beckham who for a large part of his career played more with Scholes than Zidane , calls Zidane the greatest.

Scholes's contribution to England isn't noteworthy to say the least.

Maradona is not a midfielder, but I am not surprised you cannot make a difference seeing as how you compared Zidane and Platini earlier.

Scholes retired early because he was systemically being played out of position. This is well documented, but again not surprised you raise a moot point. What's next, Cassilas better than Yashin? Van Persie better than Di Stefano? I know! You will say Laurent Blanc is better than Baresi! :twisted:

TennisLovaLova
03-05-2012, 09:57 AM
I dont think there is any question of Ali being in the top 3. HE IS ALL THE TIME GREATEST BOXER EVER.

Fedor would kill him if they met on a ring.
Oh yeah, and also wanderlei, anderson silva, shogun, mashida...
Boxing is big time lol@fixland

Russeljones
03-05-2012, 09:57 AM
The guy had everything. Truly the greatest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnzofi_QltI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0-GGR17tG4

yep he got everything

monfed
03-05-2012, 10:04 AM
Maradona is not a midfielder, but I am not surprised you cannot make a difference seeing as how you compared Zidane and Platini earlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Maradona#Playing_style

Described as attacking midfielder.


Scholes retired early because he was systemically being played out of position. This is well documented, but again not surprised you raise a moot point. What's next, Cassilas better than Yashin? Van Persie better than Di Stefano? I know! You will say Laurent Blanc is better than Baresi! :twisted:

Baichung Bhutia> Pele. See, I can do that too. ALLEZ! :twisted:

Russeljones
03-05-2012, 10:18 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Maradona#Playing_style

Described as attacking midfielder.



Baichung Bhutia> Pele. See, I can do that too. ALLEZ! :twisted:

Because wikipedia is a substitute for general knowledge. Maradona and Platini were both strikers. Hence the number of goals they scored.

Yooooooooou looooooooose :razz:

DjokovicForTheWin
03-05-2012, 01:24 PM
Or knows better than most.

Occam's razor. The crazies don't realize they're crazy. It's all relative. Law of mass action would say the minority is the crazier.

Nathaniel_Near
03-05-2012, 01:24 PM
It's not enough to say most people say blah blah to make it a strong argument for considering someone the greatest ever. I said in boxing terms he is not the greatest and in purely human terms even less so. You cannot argue with my interpretation of boxing history because it's pointless. I give different weight to Ali's achievements than you probably do, the same we give different weight to Sampras wins and Connors wins etc.

Pacquiao is actually the world's first 4 weight lineal world champion, he is the champion of 8 different divisions (also a world first) and is regarded for a long time as probably the 2nd greatest P4P boxer of all time after SRR. The fact that you only recently came across him doesn't change the stats.

Vitali Klitchko has 2 losses by way of injuries, both times way ahead in the scoring cards. Never been knocked down in 46 pro fights. Not knocked out (like Ali was at the hands of Holmes) knocked down.

Jack Dempsey popularized pro boxing in the USA to an extent unmatched probably until the Klitchko era (i.e. tens of thousands filling stadiums to watch). His contribution made it possible for all the greats who followed to achieve what they did.

Do I really have to point out why I think Floyd Mayweather Jr. is a greater boxer than Ali? Alright he beats women, can't argue if he's a better human (and quite frankly I don't like him at all) but in his prime he was a sizzling can't-live-with-him mercurial talent that Ali never was. Ali had lots of gimmicks (rubbing an opponent's eyes into the ropes on one occasion) but never a boxer's Da Vinci like Pac man and Mayweather in more recent times and Sugar Ray back in the day.

Louis.... 140 consecutive months world champion with 25 title defenses. Stopping power Ali can't hold a candle to.


You're making very offensive and arrogant assumptions, given that I've followed most of his entire career. You need to come off your high horse and stop assuming you know more than me or anybody else, as you're not presenting yourself reasonably.

I've also followed Floyd Mayweather Jr's entire career - certainly my favourite boxer ever. Ali beat every world class opponent that existed across multiple eras and won against a furious world beater when he was given virtually no chance to do so, that being George Foreman, of course. Ali tested his skills against the very best for many years of his career, something that can't be said so certainly for Floyd Mayweather Jr; whilst he has a very good resume and has beaten some very good calibre fighters, his greatest wins don't stack up against Ali's. I do think Mayweather Jr. is in the same ballpark though, and I'm hoping that by the end of his career his resume will truly be worthy in terms of quality and quantity to be considered seriously next to the likes of Ali. For now, he doesn't make the cut.

Ali has wins over Sonny Liston (spactacularly so), Floyd Patterson, Ken Norton, Joe Frazier and George Foreman - several of these are all time great heavyweights. Also, these fights took place during the opponents prime periods.

Mayweather has wins over Genero Hernandez, Corrales (spectacular victory), Castillo, Oscar De La Hoya (well past his prime, though at least at 154lbs - above Mayweather's natural weight), and Shane Mosley (way way past prime). The timings were more convenient for Mayweather and the caliber of fighters here isn't as great as they are for Ali IMO. Mayweather has shied away from fighting the biggest names in the sport when they are at their best. He wasted his prime physical years beating up on the likes of Gatti, Corley, Judah and N'dou.

Mayweather has the talent and ability to become an undisputed top ATG, but while his resume is good, it isn't indicative of someone who deserves a higher ranking than Ali. A key reason why many very knowledgeable boxing fans - who have studied the sport - haven't ranked Floyd higher than top 30 ish is because of the quality of his resume, which is very good but not great. He maybe lacks the bravery, the gall, to really show how amazing he truly is consistently against only the very best. Maybe he's too cautious about his '0'.

As for Louis, he certainly had good grounds to be considered as greater than Ali. Context is critical in boxing, more so than in tennis because of the way the match making system works in boxing - as you know, the best don't always fight the best. A case in point right now is Pacquaio vs Mayweather Jr. falling through again and again.

Larry Holmes and the klitschko's have had amazing tenures as heavyweight champions, but who have they really beat who is an ATG at the peak of their powers. Holmes vs Ali? Ali was more than just way past it, he was already starting to suffer from his Parkinson's Disease. Ali boxed too long and suffered the consequences and some silly losses, but it does nothing to diminish his excellent resume or his spectacular skills and athleticism and overwhelming boxing brilliance in his prime.

Finally, I sense a curious bias coming from you against Ali due to how he was as a human being. You've made reference to it a few times already and have continued to in this last post, but to me it seems quite irrelevant. I'm only talking about them purely as boxers and in terms of the greatness of their achievements and what I perceive to be their pure boxing ability, not how dickish they are outside of the ring. Are you? Just wondering.

Nathaniel_Near
03-05-2012, 01:28 PM
Right now, Messi and Ronaldo are being far more prolific than Zidane ever was, as far as pure statistics go. Both have been scoring virtually a goal a game for their clubs for some years now and also create a lot of goals, often with direct assists.


I already think that Messi and Ronaldo are greater pure footballers than Zidane ever was - too prolific and too brilliant. Messi is a wizard and Ronaldo can score goals from any and every position and is exceptional with his head. These are two very complete and prolific players.

Hitman
03-05-2012, 01:33 PM
Ali was the one who put the word GREATEST on the map. He simply is just that. The Greatest.

Russeljones
03-05-2012, 03:40 PM
You're making very offensive and arrogant assumptions, given that I've followed most of his entire career. You need to come off your high horse and stop assuming you know more than me or anybody else, as you're not presenting yourself reasonably.

I've also followed Floyd Mayweather Jr's entire career - certainly my favourite boxer ever. Ali beat every world class opponent that existed across multiple eras and won against a furious world beater when he was given virtually no chance to do so, that being George Foreman, of course. Ali tested his skills against the very best for many years of his career, something that can't be said so certainly for Floyd Mayweather Jr; whilst he has a very good resume and has beaten some very good calibre fighters, his greatest wins don't stack up against Ali's. I do think Mayweather Jr. is in the same ballpark though, and I'm hoping that by the end of his career his resume will truly be worthy in terms of quality and quantity to be considered seriously next to the likes of Ali. For now, he doesn't make the cut.

Ali has wins over Sonny Liston (spactacularly so), Floyd Patterson, Ken Norton, Joe Frazier and George Foreman - several of these are all time great heavyweights. Also, these fights took place during the opponents prime periods.

Mayweather has wins over Genero Hernandez, Corrales (spectacular victory), Castillo, Oscar De La Hoya (well past his prime, though at least at 154lbs - above Mayweather's natural weight), and Shane Mosley (way way past prime). The timings were more convenient for Mayweather and the caliber of fighters here isn't as great as they are for Ali IMO. Mayweather has shied away from fighting the biggest names in the sport when they are at their best. He wasted his prime physical years beating up on the likes of Gatti, Corley, Judah and N'dou.

Mayweather has the talent and ability to become an undisputed top ATG, but while his resume is good, it isn't indicative of someone who deserves a higher ranking than Ali. A key reason why many very knowledgeable boxing fans - who have studied the sport - haven't ranked Floyd higher than top 30 ish is because of the quality of his resume, which is very good but not great. He maybe lacks the bravery, the gall, to really show how amazing he truly is consistently against only the very best. Maybe he's too cautious about his '0'.

As for Louis, he certainly had good grounds to be considered as greater than Ali. Context is critical in boxing, more so than in tennis because of the way the match making system works in boxing - as you know, the best don't always fight the best. A case in point right now is Pacquaio vs Mayweather Jr. falling through again and again.

Larry Holmes and the klitschko's have had amazing tenures as heavyweight champions, but who have they really beat who is an ATG at the peak of their powers. Holmes vs Ali? Ali was more than just way past it, he was already starting to suffer from his Parkinson's Disease. Ali boxed too long and suffered the consequences and some silly losses, but it does nothing to diminish his excellent resume or his spectacular skills and athleticism and overwhelming boxing brilliance in his prime.

Finally, I sense a curious bias coming from you against Ali due to how he was as a human being. You've made reference to it a few times already and have continued to in this last post, but to me it seems quite irrelevant. I'm only talking about them purely as boxers and in terms of the greatness of their achievements and what I perceive to be their pure boxing ability, not how dickish they are outside of the ring. Are you? Just wondering.

You make some fair points. But let's get this straight, when the word 'greatest is used' we're also taking into account the legacy. And to many boxing afficionados Ali's legacy is tarnished by his involvement with the Nation of Islam. You can only beat what is infront of you so I am not entirely in agreement with you about the Klitschko's as they would surely decimate cross-era due to their incredible physical prowess. Wladimir started off shaky, but he is now undefeated for over 7 years and barring injury will set title defense records for years to come.

I think you are being a little selective about qualifying fighters Mayweather and Ali beat. Time elapsed has given fighters of the past a certain halo of 'worth' and I can't fault you for giving them that extra bit of weight beause of it, because I too feel a little nostalgia for the clean gentlemanly sport that boxing was. However the men Floyd Mayweather Jr. beat were the pick of the division at any given time (not saying they were all in their prime, he was/is very picky). The assertion that Floyd doesn't rank in the top 30 is plain ludicrous. Again he is the most obnoxiously perfect boxing specimen ever, only his lack of punching power keeps him out of consideration for the top spot.

Manny has that and he is a decent guy too. So for my money Ali is down the 'greatest ever' pecking order because he is not the puncher Louis was, not the complete talent that SRR was and I genuinely believe Wladimir and Vitaly are better boxers (and higher in line for greatest ever, they have Ph.Ds, do a lot of charity and are politically active in their native country). These arguments will never end. I just wish people stop talking Ali up as the greatest sportsman because he wasn't. His condition is sad and I sincerely sympathyze with him, but he said some things, I don't think I can forget. That's my bias. I don't believe someone should get a clean sheat because he is ill. Every great champion has a responsibility. A power to do good. With Ali that opportunity was squandered. The people who don't know.. well I hope they want to inform themselves to formulate their own opinions and not be parrots.

Nathaniel_Near
03-05-2012, 03:47 PM
You make some fair points. But let's get this straight, when the word 'greatest is used' we're also taking into account the legacy. And to many boxing afficionados Ali's legacy is tarnished by his involvement with the Nation of Islam. You can only beat what is infront of you so I am not entirely in agreement with you about the Klitschko's as they would surely decimate cross-era due to their incredible physical prowess. Wladimir started off shaky, but he is now undefeated for over 7 years and barring injury will set title defense records for years to come.

I think you are being a little selective about qualifying fighters Mayweather and Ali beat. Time elapsed has given fighters of the past a certain halo of 'worth' and I can't fault you for giving them that extra bit of weight beause of it, because I too feel a little nostalgia for the clean gentlemanly sport that boxing was. However the men Floyd Mayweather Jr. beat were the pick of the division at any given time (not saying they were all in their prime, he was/is very picky). The assertion that Floyd doesn't rank in the top 30 is plain ludicrous. Again he is the most obnoxiously perfect boxing specimen ever, only his lack of punching power keeps him out of consideration for the top spot.

Manny has that and he is a decent guy too. So for my money Ali is down the 'greatest ever' pecking order because he is not the puncher Louis was, not the complete talent that SRR was and I genuinely believe Wladimir and Vitaly are better boxers (and higher in line for greatest ever, they have Ph.Ds, do a lot of charity and are politically active in their native country). These arguments will never end. I just wish people stop talking Ali up as the greatest sportsman because he wasn't. His condition is sad and I sincerely sympathyze with him, but he said some things, I don't think I can forget. That's my bias. I don't believe someone should get a clean sheat because he is ill. Every great champion has a responsibility. A power to do good. With Ali that opportunity was squandered. The people who don't know.. well I hope they want to inform themselves to formulate their own opinions and not be parrots.

I am in agreement with you that the general perception of Mayweather is ludicrous; he is so hated that it mars his 'legacy'. This is why I am largely disinterested in what happens outside of the ring, because inside it Mayweather and Ali are/were brilliant. I don't rate Wladimir as a natural fighter, but he is more physically gifted than his brother. Vitaly has that pure fighting instinct. Ali didn't have the power of Louis and wasn't as technically perfect as Mayweather but he had tremendous heart, was extremely savvy and had an incredible fighting instinct. His natural athleticism was also rather exceptional, incredible - only the likes of Roy Jones Jr. compare. Mayweather is athletically very gifted but he isn't quite freakish, however, his wonderful and artistic technical perfection certainly is quite freakish - I'm a huge fan, despite his random BS i.e. 'I'm a gorilla I'm a dog, I'm a dog I'm a gorilla!'

... Oh dear.

BTW, I can relate to your frustration regarding the semantic differences between 'sportsman' and 'boxer' or 'tennis player' etc. I'm only talking in relation to who I feel are the greatest boxers of all time. I certainly think you can be a great boxer whilst being a much lesser great sportsman.

Fedex
03-06-2012, 12:17 AM
Ali in his prime was greater than any boxer in the history of the sport.
If you, objectively, watch the guy in his prime then that is obvious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmJdh8_BUBw

"no one in the history of boxing could have beaten Ali that night"

Ali was a freak of nature with speed, reflexes and coordination that were unbelievable for a big man.

Other boxers have achieved more but remember Ali lost three years in his prime.

Rhino
03-06-2012, 12:46 AM
I'll be honest - living in Australia, I have brought up Gretzky and people look at me funny, he isn't a world-wide name.



I have traveled and lived all over the world and have never heard of this Gretzky character.

joeri888
03-06-2012, 01:00 AM
Gretzky is an ice hockey player.

What really annoys me is why people in america refer to ice hockey and American football as hockey and football, while there are quite different (more popular) sports with that name, which are older and have been the inspiration to the variations of ice hockey and American football. These sports are football (soccer) and hockey (field hockey).

Russeljones
03-06-2012, 01:03 AM
Ali in his prime was greater than any boxer in the history of the sport.
If you, objectively, watch the guy in his prime then that is obvious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmJdh8_BUBw

"no one in the history of boxing could have beaten Ali that night"

Ali was a freak of nature with speed, reflexes and coordination that were unbelievable for a big man.

Other boxers have achieved more but remember Ali lost three years in his prime.

100% factual as always haha

Russeljones
03-06-2012, 01:13 AM
Alright Nathaniel, all that's left to clear up is this bit :)

Manny Pacquiao has only just begun to be considered for top 10 lists, nevermind top 5.

If by "just" you mean the past 9 years then I agree. (although I still rate him very high in terms of achievements and talent) Maybe in another 10-15 years you will look at his career in a different light.

Fedex
03-06-2012, 01:20 AM
100% factual as always haha

Ha ha that is so sweet coming from you.
Have you ever actually carefully watched footage of Ali in his prime and the guys he had to fight.
Ali had at least 3 "Tysons" in his era all more formidable than Tyson - Sonny Liston, Frazier and Foreman, two of these he beat when past his prime.
Sonny Liston was an animal, literally, a street thug and convicted killer and one of the most feared boxers ever.
Ali gave him a boxing lesson but in one round Liston flicked some liquid in Ali's eye and he could hardly see for the next round, still managed to stave him off.
Ali was a truly amazing boxer.

Russeljones
03-06-2012, 04:47 AM
Ha ha that is so sweet coming from you.
Have you ever actually carefully watched footage of Ali in his prime and the guys he had to fight.
Ali had at least 3 "Tysons" in his era all more formidable than Tyson - Sonny Liston, Frazier and Foreman, two of these he beat when past his prime.
Sonny Liston was an animal, literally, a street thug and convicted killer and one of the most feared boxers ever.
Ali gave him a boxing lesson but in one round Liston flicked some liquid in Ali's eye and he could hardly see for the next round, still managed to stave him off.
Ali was a truly amazing boxer.

Tysons? lol

http://blacksportsonline.com/index/2009/04/alifrazier.html

A sort of summary of the person Ali was. Ali was twisted and used willingly. Greatest? No.

Sentinel
03-06-2012, 04:52 AM
How arrogant of Roger to be the crowd favorite.

BULLZ1LLA2.0
03-06-2012, 04:58 AM
The crowds preference for Federer was puzzling, until I heard Federer actually lives in Dubai.

Sentinel
03-06-2012, 05:18 AM
Smart crowd.

Nathaniel_Near
03-06-2012, 06:10 AM
Alright Nathaniel, all that's left to clear up is this bit :)



If by "just" you mean the past 9 years then I agree. (although I still rate him very high in terms of achievements and talent) Maybe in another 10-15 years you will look at his career in a different light.

Questionable decisions and carefully timed matchmaking has helped Pacquiao to look mightily good, not that he isn't. Ultimately I'm waiting for the Mayweather match up to happen. Pacman's career has been stellar but I'm not some guy who is going to look at the past or my own time with rose tinted glasses - it's just not my style. The same goes for my judgement of any player in any sport at any time; I just try to be as objective as possible. Pacquiao has almost always been a great fighter but it's in the last 4 or so years where he has really shown just how great he has become, but I have to wonder how he would do against elite pure boxers such as Sweat Pea, SRL and Mayweather, seeing as the only other uber elite boxer he has fought has arguably beat him twice. But yes, I do rate him very highly, but there are a lot of boxers to rate very highly and it's tight up there once you get into the realms of the greatest 10 boxers ever. I think ultimately, I see Pacquiao and Mayweather as special fighters but still feel they have some trials to overcome before they can officially claim some sort of let's say, provisional all time ranking.

Nathaniel_Near
03-07-2012, 04:58 PM
Seen and read all this before. Johan Cruyff was probably a better pure footballer than Zidane and invented tricks of his own. Same goes for Pele and Maradona, and this is just picking out the obvious choices, plenty of others contend favourably or equally as well.

Zidane is my fave footballer ever, but it doesn't matter - he just isn't the greatest footballer ever, but is a legend of football. As for him beating Messi in that poll, let's see what happens by the time Messi has retired or hell, by the time Messi is just 27 or so.

PS, it's worth noting that Zidane didn't invent the 360 aka roulette football trick.



Or maybe even before he's 25...

Lionel Messi; profound footballing genius.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mPcvlgaWG0&feature=player_embedded

5 goals in one Champions League game.

Incredible talent...


TWITTER REACTION
"Messi is the best ever. I played in a great LFC team of the late 70s and early 80s which ruled Europe but I must say i think this Barcelona team would batter us." Former Liverpool midfielder Terry McDermott

"Messi is a joke. For me the best ever." Manchester United striker Wayne Rooney

"Fella's a genius! Best ever by a distance in my lifetime! Never really saw Pele." Match of the Day presenter Gary Lineker

"Not old enough to see some of the greats but I can't believe anyone can have played the game of football as well as Messi." Manchester United striker Michael Owen

Five... goals... in one CL game.

Skills and wits and imagination still win in football, it's a shame that isn't quite the case with tennis anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX8GrVW0Es0&feature=related