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View Full Version : Any tennis stars grow up dirt poor?


The Baseline
03-11-2012, 02:45 PM
Just wondering because i read about nadal and federers background. Federer is from a middle class family in switzerland, and nadal's family owned some sort of a business in Malluca, Spain. I was wondering if there were any ATP pros that grew up poor and from humble beginnings?

blackfrido
03-11-2012, 02:54 PM
Juan Ignacio Chela

Great Uncle Bulgaria
03-11-2012, 03:01 PM
Evonne Goolagong's family did not have much money but I don't know about 'dirt poor'.

Possibly also the players from the Eastern Bloc but I am guessing and probably also stereotyping a bit.

Crisstti
03-11-2012, 03:10 PM
I don't think Djokovic had money growing up?.

The Bawss
03-11-2012, 03:10 PM
I don't think Djokovic had money growing up?.

Lol, his parents are rich.

zcarzach
03-11-2012, 03:18 PM
Not current, and not ATP, but I believe Billie Jean King was from a poor family.

pound cat
03-11-2012, 03:19 PM
Not current, and not ATP, but I believe Billie Jean King was from a poor family.

Currently Ivo Karlovic

ernestsgulbisfan#1
03-11-2012, 03:20 PM
Gulbis? :) :shock:

NLBwell
03-11-2012, 03:21 PM
Pancho Segura had very little growing up in Equador.
Pancho Gonzales didn't have a whole lot growing up.

SLD76
03-11-2012, 03:25 PM
Well, we all know the Williams sisters. They werent dirt poor but they came from modest beginnings.

Crisstti
03-11-2012, 03:25 PM
Lol, his parents are rich.

Were they when he was growing up?. I've gotten the impression from what people say here they were not at all.

Rock Strongo
03-11-2012, 03:35 PM
Didn't Yuriy Sharapov spend his last money on getting Maria to the US? They couldn't even afford taking her mom with them IIRC...

SStrikerR
03-11-2012, 03:37 PM
There was an article in tennis mag about djokovic over the summer, and yeah, pretty sure his family was spending most of their money on his tennis and barely scraping by. Sharapovas dad basically used all of his money to send her to bolleteris when she was younger iirc.

jayoub95
03-11-2012, 03:40 PM
Agassi was poor but not dirt poor. Most tennis pro's come from poor backgrounds because they have nothing and tennis is the only way they can make a good living for themselves.

SLD76
03-11-2012, 03:47 PM
Agassi was poor but not dirt poor. Most tennis pro's come from poor backgrounds because they have nothing and tennis is the only way they can make a good living for themselves.

say wha?


I think you are thinking of futbol, basketball, football, and baseball.

jayoub95
03-11-2012, 03:55 PM
But it's true. Ok maybe not most pro tennis players but half of them come from poor backgrounds. If someone rich was to play tennis and someone poor was to play tennis and they were both trying to go pro, the poor one would most probably go pro because he has nothing and needs tennis to have a stable future whereas the rich dude won't put any effort because he already has so much to distract him... This is the best way i can put it. Agassi is a good example because he hasn't got the best education but with tennis he made it big.

pc1
03-11-2012, 03:58 PM
Pancho Segura.

SLD76
03-11-2012, 04:01 PM
But it's true. Ok maybe not most pro tennis players but half of them come from poor backgrounds. If someone rich was to play tennis and someone poor was to play tennis and they were both trying to go pro, the poor one would most probably go pro because he has nothing and needs tennis to have a stable future whereas the rich dude won't put any effort because he already has so much to distract him... This is the best way i can put it. Agassi is a good example because he has n't got the best education but with tennis he made it big.

ummm...he has nothing..meaning he cant afford lessons from a pro, or to attend some academy, or renting court time, or expensive rackets, or sneakers, or strings or gear.

Tennis is one of the most expensive sports to try and play.

There was a thread here just the other week that bemoaned the lack of talent in american players. One reason posited for this phenomena was the sheer expense of the sport compared to other more popular sports. So not only is tennis already not as popular as football, basketball, and baseball to play, its exponentially more expensive, driving talented athletes to other more accessible sports.

For every Agassi and WS and Sharapova that make it to the tour, how many more people are lost just for sheer lack of funds or accessibility to tennis courts


Furthermore..just to even make real money, one has to be ranked in the top 100 or so in tennis.

Compare that to the 100th ranked basketball or baseball player...they are probably making 5 million a year. The 100th ranked tennis player is happy to clear 50,000k a year.

Take a dirt poor kid who could go pro in basketball or tennis and guess which sport they choose?

jayoub95
03-11-2012, 04:02 PM
The Williams sisters came from poor backgrounds too. Also Pat Rafter was said to have slept in locker rooms or ATP rooms during satellite tournaments.

Tammo
03-11-2012, 04:04 PM
Tennis is an expensive sport. Most players are fairly well aff to begin with.

SLD76
03-11-2012, 04:06 PM
Tennis is an expensive sport. Most players are fairly well offto begin with.


exactly.

10corrects.

sixone90
03-11-2012, 04:09 PM
Janko Tipsarevic?

andry16
03-11-2012, 04:51 PM
maria sharapova, i read once that her and her dad came to the us with almost nothing and without any english speaking abilities

Ronaldo
03-11-2012, 04:58 PM
John and Patrick McEnroe grew up on the mean streets of Douglaston, New York.

Crisstti
03-11-2012, 05:10 PM
Agassi was poor but not dirt poor. Most tennis pro's come from poor backgrounds because they have nothing and tennis is the only way they can make a good living for themselves.

I really don't think that's the case.

Mustard
03-11-2012, 05:12 PM
Jimmy Connors wasn't exactly well off financially in his childhood.

John and Patrick McEnroe grew up on the mean streets of Douglaston, New York.

The McEnroe brothers are the sons of a lawyer.

jaggy
03-11-2012, 05:36 PM
In the US it would be very hard to get through the juniors without well off parents

Ronaldo
03-11-2012, 05:54 PM
Aaron Krickstein grew up on the tougher streets of Ann Arbor, Michigan, forced to eat only Maize and Blue Cheese. Go Blue

jayoub95
03-11-2012, 06:07 PM
Ernests Gulbis came from a wealthy family.

Joehax
03-11-2012, 06:11 PM
I think tennis and golf are pretty similar in that they require a fair bit or coin to get into.

Heaps of sports stars come from dirt poor backgrounds, hardly any in tennis and golf though.

magnut
03-11-2012, 06:47 PM
I think Sweeting's dad is a truck driver

Rafter was poor as where most of the old school ausies many of which grew up on a farm.

I am pretty sure Yannick Noah was dirt poor.

Most players now are from rich families as tennis has become even more of an elitist sport.

Womens tour is a little different. Most of those russian girls would probably be prostitutes if not for tennis.

SLD76
03-11-2012, 06:49 PM
I think Sweeting's dad is a truck driver

Rafter was poor as where most of the old school ausies many of which grew up on a farm.

I am pretty sure Yannick Noah was dirt poor.

Most players now are from rich families as tennis has become even more of an elitist sport.

Womens tour is a little different. Most of those russian girls would probably be prostitutes if not for tennis.

1) those were in the olden days when I am sure the sport wasnt near as expensive as it is now to play

2) just wow :shock:

Ronaldo
03-11-2012, 06:53 PM
It's not where you start it's where you finish, eh?

magnut
03-11-2012, 07:05 PM
1) those were in the olden days when I am sure the sport wasnt near as expensive as it is now to play

2) just wow :shock:

Well if you were needed on the farm and chose to go play tennis I am sure that was a big sacrifice during the depression etc. Australian tennis was not an elite thing back in the old days. Everybody played and many folks made there own courts at the farm. Australia was also pretty poor back then.

As far as the Russian girls... go look at russia 10-15 years ago. The country was in bad shape. Hard to understand things like that if your on this side of the pond. It still goes on in Russia even today. Prostitution is thriving around the globe even in the USA due to these wonderful economic times.

SLD76
03-11-2012, 07:17 PM
Well if you were needed on the farm and chose to go play tennis I am sure that was a big sacrifice during the depression etc. Australian tennis was not an elite thing back in the old days. Everybody played and many folks made there own courts at the farm. Australia was also pretty poor back then.

As far as the Russian girls... go look at russia 10-15 years ago. The country was in bad shape. Hard to understand things like that if your on this side of the pond. It still goes on in Russia even today. Prostitution is thriving around the globe even in the USA due to these wonderful economic times.

1) thats what I meant...the sport was more accessible then and not near as expensive to play

2) fair enough...as an american, I cant pretend to know the inner workings of post-soviet russia as far as trafficking women goes.

Somehow, I doubt Petrova or Kuznestsova would have been pimped out tho.

Just saying.

Ronaldo
03-11-2012, 07:32 PM
1) thats what I meant...the sport was more accessible then and not near as expensive to play

2) fair enough...as an american, I cant pretend to know the inner workings of post-soviet russia as far as trafficking women goes.

Somehow, I doubt Petrova or Kuznestsova would have been pimped out tho.

Just saying.

Confirms that pimpin' ain't easy all over the world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlrKVdKMFXw&feature=related

Tcbtennis
03-11-2012, 08:01 PM
http://straightsets.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/07/teenager-from-hockey-family-tries-to-rise-in-tennis-ranks/

When I got to the part of the article that read that this player's father made his billions in natural gas drilling, I knew that she did not qualify for this thread.

jayoub95
03-11-2012, 08:19 PM
I really don't think that's the case.

The reason why there are so many up and coming European players is because they don't have as much as some other wealthier countries. If i was poor and i wanted to be a pro tennis player i sure as hell would be on the court as much as possible because if i didn't make it i would have no education because my parents couldn't afford it. It's called motivation. If you have no motivation then your not going to do anything. I'm not having a go at you by saying all this, i'm just trying to show you where i'm coming from.

SLD76
03-11-2012, 08:43 PM
The reason why there are so many up and coming European players is because they don't have as much as some other wealthier countries. If i was poor and i wanted to be a pro tennis player i sure as hell would be on the court as much as possible because if i didn't make it i would have no education because my parents couldn't afford it. It's called motivation. If you have no motivation then your not going to do anything. I'm not having a go at you by saying all this, i'm just trying to show you where i'm coming from.

Thats fine, I still think you are wrong.

Were I a talented athlete in europe I think Id probably go for futbol before tennis.

Not as expensive to play and far more money, especially if you are en elite player.

Heck the contracts of some the true elite players eclipse the career prize money of Federer.

Didnt somebody get their contract bought out for like 180 mil euros? Fed has made 63 mil his entire career. Some team paid nearly 3 times that much just to buy out the contract, then they had to resign the guy.

I maintain that the reason Euro players dominate at the moment is

1) the courts have slowed, which benefits the euros as most players their grow up with the clay. Teh courts are suited to their training

2) tennis is more popular in euro than US.

3) US loses good athletes to more popular and more accessible( read, cheaper to play) sports.

Towerofpower205
03-11-2012, 08:51 PM
Wasn't james blake from a lower class family

Bobby Jr
03-11-2012, 08:56 PM
maria sharapova, i read once that her and her dad came to the us with almost nothing and without any english speaking abilities
Man, that is poor if they couldn't even afford to speak English... :lol::lol:

TERRASTAR18
03-11-2012, 09:09 PM
Well if you were needed on the farm and chose to go play tennis I am sure that was a big sacrifice during the depression etc. Australian tennis was not an elite thing back in the old days. Everybody played and many folks made there own courts at the farm. Australia was also pretty poor back then.

As far as the Russian girls... go look at russia 10-15 years ago. The country was in bad shape. Hard to understand things like that if your on this side of the pond. It still goes on in Russia even today. Prostitution is thriving around the globe even in the USA due to these wonderful economic times.

russian mail order brides.....it kind of reminds me of my dad. he works on wall street, and the floor above him there i guess is a model agency. so everyday, the "women" there are trying to hit on my dad and his coworkers, asking if they want to go for a drink. and these chicks look like at most 20.

nethawkwenatchee
03-11-2012, 09:42 PM
I can't say dirt poor for acuracy sakes but Nikolay Davydenko was born into a working class Ukrainian family. He moved to live with his brother Eduard at a very young age. Eduard gave tennis lessons and supported Nikolay while working him relentlessly into the player he is now. A traveling coach saw his potential and invited the two of them to an academy in Germany where they trained until Nikolay started winning futures and challengers in the late 90‘s. His ranking rose as did the money and the two of them hit the road together and entered every tournament possible. He’s won almost 15 million just in prize money to date and was a solid top five player for a good while. I personally love watching him and hope he makes a run at this stage in his career.

SLD76
03-11-2012, 10:02 PM
I can't say dirt poor for acuracy sakes but Nikolay Davydenko was born into a working class Ukrainian family. He moved to live with his brother Eduard at a very young age. Eduard gave tennis lessons and supported Nikolay while working him relentlessly into the player he is now. A traveling coach saw his potential and invited the two of them to an academy in Germany where they trained until Nikolay started winning futures and challengers in the late 90s. His ranking rose as did the money and the two of them hit the road together and entered every tournament possible. Hes won almost 15 million just in prize money to date and was a solid top five player for a good while. I personally love watching him and hope he makes a run at this stage in his career.

and that is my point really.


at some point if you do not come from money, you have to get someone else to foot the bill.

alot of potentially good players are lost because, sadly, they are not in a position to have someone develop or notice their talents.

Leelord337
03-11-2012, 10:34 PM
I know that Monica Seles was pretty poor, according to Nick Bolletteiri's book. Andre Agassi was too

oh yes, I just remembered Marcos Baghdatis' story of how he lived with his family in a very small home on top of a hill in cyprus. He came from a VERY poor background...The aussie open had a feature on him in 2005 when he made the final that year out of nowhere.

jayoub95
03-12-2012, 02:12 AM
Thats fine, I still think you are wrong


Then i happily agree to disagree :)

jayoub95
03-12-2012, 02:15 AM
not meant to post twice

joeri888
03-12-2012, 02:54 AM
Ivo Karlovic at least lived in public bathrooms while playing challengers and futures events.

Evan77
03-12-2012, 02:56 AM
Although Djokovic family had that little pizza shop they had to borrow money at a very high interest rate to support Novak. They sold all gold from their house etc. It did pay off at the end but they really went through some hard time.

I read this article where Nole's dad said that they had days where they could hardly afford food. Novak never knew about it at the time.

I wanted to play tennis as a kid. I've been always fascinated with it since I saw the Borg vs JMac match at W in 1980. My dad wouldn't let me because it was too expensive. he was like, go play some group sports, whatever...

so no it's not easy to become a tennis pro...

joeri888
03-12-2012, 03:53 AM
I know that Monica Seles was pretty poor, according to Nick Bolletteiri's book. Andre Agassi was too

oh yes, I just remembered Marcos Baghdatis' story of how he lived with his family in a very small home on top of a hill in cyprus. He came from a VERY poor background...The aussie open had a feature on him in 2005 when he made the final that year out of nowhere.

He made the final in 2006 and was closer to beating Federer than the eventual scoreline suggested.

patty_mnouchkine
03-12-2012, 07:57 AM
say wha?


I think you are thinking of futbol, basketball, football, and baseball.

What does your signature mean?

patty_mnouchkine
03-12-2012, 08:02 AM
Although Djokovic family had that little pizza shop they had to borrow money at a very high interest rate to support Novak. They sold all gold from their house etc. It did pay off at the end but they really went through some hard time.

I read this article where Nole's dad said that they had days where they could hardly afford food. Novak never knew about it at the time.

I wanted to play tennis as a kid. I've been always fascinated with it since I saw the Borg vs JMac match at W in 1980. My dad wouldn't let me because it was too expensive. he was like, go play some group sports, whatever...

so no it's not easy to become a tennis pro...

Very inspiring, glad it was brought to attention

glazkovss
03-12-2012, 08:47 AM
What dirt poor means?

AtomicForehand
03-12-2012, 08:52 AM
Ivo Karlovic at least lived in public bathrooms while playing challengers and futures events.

He spent part of one night in one, once.

/factcheck

magnut
03-12-2012, 08:52 AM
What dirt poor means?

Means you are so poor you cannot buy dirt. Its common in new home owners that need soil for a garden but cannot afford to buy bags of black cow (cow poo and black dirt) so the gardener must look at different ways to get free soil or use home made compost to fertilize the garden.

Not many people are dirt poor anymore because government extorts money from people and gives them free money and foodstamps so many dont even have to garden.

Dirt poor people are not that common anymore unless you have no money and wont take government extortion checks (which is uncommon now).

Ronaldo
03-12-2012, 08:53 AM
What dirt poor means?

Means this in my neighborhood, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3Vp9fQ616k&feature=related

magnut
03-12-2012, 08:54 AM
He spent part of one night in one, once.

/factcheck

This is correct. I believe it was after a late night of binge drinking and a visit to a local Taco Bell where he passed out on the toilet.


Lets not make the stuttering giant's bathroom visit out to be more than it is.

luishcorreia
03-12-2012, 02:01 PM
Tennis is not a popular sportmin that way. Most families are frm medium class and up

jackson vile
03-12-2012, 03:44 PM
Davydenko and his brother lived out of their car while the played challengers. Really don't get any more poor than that.

FlashFlare11
03-12-2012, 03:46 PM
Davydenko and his brother lived out of their car while the played challengers. Really don't get any more poor than that.

That's pretty incredible! I wish he had gotten more out of his tennis career, though. A WTF is definitely no small achievement, but the man is just so talented!

jayoub95
03-12-2012, 03:49 PM
Sleeping inside the locker rooms of the event can surely be worse.

magnut
03-12-2012, 03:52 PM
Sleeping inside the locker rooms of the event can surely be worse.

Some of those locker rooms are nicer than most people's houses.

laughingbuddha
03-12-2012, 04:30 PM
I remember reading somewhere that Ljubicic was extremely poor, and of course, Bahrami.

JohnnyCracker
03-12-2012, 04:47 PM
Sharapova, Djokovic, etc. "dirt poor" growing up? ... makes me laugh
Anybody who thinks Sharapova, Djokovic and the likes were dirt poor growing up needs to watch Children of Leningradsky or pay a visit to India, Africa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfXyMLUshX4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVtNnxfh28U&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbIMUb3NiJk&feature=related

These kids live in gutters literally.

Lsmkenpo
03-12-2012, 10:29 PM
Marcos Baghdatis, his family couldn't afford to fly to Australia to watch him play the 2006 final of the AO, Tennis Australia paid to fly them in.

jayoub95
03-12-2012, 11:06 PM
Some of those locker rooms are nicer than most people's houses.

True and i can honestly say that i'd rather sleep in a locker room than a stuffy car. People most probably sleep in locker rooms because cars are too small and stuffy :roll: But thats what Pat Rafter did and besides some people can't afford to stay in motels while travelling to tournaments.

magnut
03-12-2012, 11:10 PM
True and i can honestly say that i'd rather sleep in a locker room than a stuffy car. People most probably sleep in locker rooms because cars are too small and stuffy :roll: But thats what Pat Rafter did and besides some people can't afford to stay in motels while travelling to tournaments.

LOL, All Pat had to do is go to a bar and I am sure women would be lining up to give him a place to stay for the night. Not sure if it would be quite the same for Karlovic.

jayoub95
03-12-2012, 11:17 PM
Haha :lol: Karlovic is alright. I think Ferrer was having a hard time competing on the challenger tour and went back to brick laying but he decided to work harder at tennis and look at the money he has now..... 11 mill :shock: Another poor kid was Nadal. He used the cheapest everything when he was young. He used duralast strings, apparently they were the cheapest.

Spin Doctor
03-13-2012, 12:09 AM
Another poor kid was Nadal. He used the cheapest everything when he was young. He used duralast strings, apparently they were the cheapest.

Can someone clarify Nadal's background? I've heard people say he has a modest background but then I hear about his family's "compound" and real estate holdings/businesses.

jayoub95
03-13-2012, 12:14 AM
Well it says that Nadals father is a business man and to me he would be an average joe but i have heard from many people that he was sort of poor. Dunno who to believe but if you really want to know just look at nadals wikipedia profile.

Spin Doctor
03-13-2012, 12:19 AM
Well it says that Nadals father is a business man and to me he would be an average joe but i have heard from many people that he was sort of poor. Dunno who to believe but if you really want to know just look at nadals wikipedia profile.

Wiki says his father is "a businessman who owns an insurance company, a glass and window company, Vidres Mallorca, and manages his own restaurant, Sa Punta"

That could mean anything. Could mean he was struggling to pay the bills or could mean those companies had millions in revenues.

jayoub95
03-13-2012, 12:45 AM
Wikipedia info can be edited by anyone so i dont trust it 100%. Still can't get 100% accurate info on whether he was average/poor.

SLD76
03-13-2012, 04:15 AM
I have a feeling...Nadal's family was not poor.

His uncle was a successful footballer. Not saying htat automatically makes them rich, but I have a feeling they were not 'dirt poor'.

FlashFlare11
03-13-2012, 04:19 AM
Haha :lol: Karlovic is alright. I think Ferrer was having a hard time competing on the challenger tour and went back to brick laying but he decided to work harder at tennis and look at the money he has now..... 11 mill :shock: Another poor kid was Nadal. He used the cheapest everything when he was young. He used duralast strings, apparently they were the cheapest.

I don't think Nadal was poor. I know Toni had a lot to do with the equipment Nadal used and where he practiced. I read they intentionally used poor racquets, balls, and courts to teach Rafa discipline and humility.

8F93W5
03-13-2012, 05:09 AM
True and i can honestly say that i'd rather sleep in a locker room than a stuffy car. People most probably sleep in locker rooms because cars are too small and stuffy :roll: But thats what Pat Rafter did and besides some people can't afford to stay in motels while travelling to tournaments.

I think the entire Pierce family used to live out of the family car while Mary was just starting as a young pro. But I don't think they were actually "poor". It's just that tennis and hotels are very expensive. Living out of a car doesn't always mean someone is poor. As a kid, my family took a vacation and camped in a tent we took with us all over western Europe. We were middle class. There's no way my parents could have supported a tennis player.

Emet74
03-13-2012, 07:24 AM
Nadal's family is not / was not poor. It says in his official autobiography that his father was a very successful businessman.

The reason Toni can afford to coach Nadal for free is because he gets a share of the profits of Nadal's father's business.

nereis
03-13-2012, 07:33 AM
Nadal's father has a multitude of businesses all of which are not overly capital intensive and should be providing consistent cash flows. They also own the apartment building they live in, in addition to several other real estate properties.

So let's iron this out. Nadal may have been given poor quality stuff to play with, but his family is much more wealthy than Federer's family ever was.

magnut
03-13-2012, 07:42 AM
I know a lot of people. Some like to tell me how poor they are all the time. After that they load their kids into the Volvo or Range Rover, pick the dog up from the doggy dentist, and head off to their beach house for the weekend. Those poor people have it rough. It must be hard being poor like that. I cant imagine how hard it must be to not get a new Ferrari when you turn 16.

babolat king
03-13-2012, 08:50 AM
Tennis is an expensive sport. Most players are fairly well aff to begin with.

Totally agree! You have to spend money to make money. Just like anything else.

Equiptment, lessons, coaching, court time, tournaments, travel...very expensive.

Ronaldo
03-13-2012, 08:51 AM
I know a lot of people. Some like to tell me how poor they are all the time. After that they load their kids into the Volvo or Range Rover, pick the dog up from the doggy dentist, and head off to their beach house for the weekend. Those poor people have it rough. It must be hard being poor like that. I cant imagine how hard it must be to not get a new Ferrari when you turn 16.

Grow up on the mean streets of Hampton. NY, eh?

magnut
03-13-2012, 08:57 AM
Grow up on the mean streets of Hampton. NY, eh?

LOL. I didnt grow up poor but we didnt waste money either. We bathed our own pets (doggy dentist and hair salons?). My parents never gave me money for fun. It was more common for kids to have jobs back then (Paperoutes etc.). I had my own money and my own responsibilities.

magnut
03-13-2012, 09:06 AM
Totally agree! You have to spend money to make money. Just like anything else.

Equiptment, lessons, coaching, court time, tournaments, travel...very expensive.

True but you also have to NOT spend money to save and have money. People seems to like the vicious circle of spend money to make money. The problem is that your always going to be broke no matter how much you make.

pmerk34
03-13-2012, 09:11 AM
I know a lot of people. Some like to tell me how poor they are all the time. After that they load their kids into the Volvo or Range Rover, pick the dog up from the doggy dentist, and head off to their beach house for the weekend. Those poor people have it rough. It must be hard being poor like that. I cant imagine how hard it must be to not get a new Ferrari when you turn 16.

Depends on how we define poor.

magnut
03-13-2012, 09:26 AM
Depends on how we define poor.

this is exactly what I am getting at.

pmerk34
03-13-2012, 09:32 AM
this is exactly what I am getting at.

The way poor is defined in the United States means the avg poor person here has two ( might be three) televisions, wifi, and more than half of our poor own a home. And I don't know what % of the poor in the US are obese or overweight. Now I'm certainly glad I made decisions in my life so I am not among our poor but our poor have no relation to the poor in Nicaragua for one example.

In any event no matter how much you make raising a child to become a pro tennis player is a lot of money.

celoft
03-13-2012, 09:35 AM
The Williams sisters.

pmerk34
03-13-2012, 09:36 AM
The Williams sisters.

There is not dirt poor in the states really. We would have to look at other countries and then the answer is probably no

magnut
03-13-2012, 09:41 AM
Was'nt Yannick Noah poor?

Poor in tennis nowdays is not being able to afford Federers new clothing line.

Its become a freaking elitist sport thanks to organizations like the USTA.

boredone3456
03-13-2012, 09:42 AM
The way poor is defined in the United States means the avg poor person here has two ( might be three) televisions, wifi, and more than half of our poor own a home. And I don't know what % of the poor in the US are obese or overweight. Now I'm certainly glad I made decisions in my life so I am not among our poor but our poor have no relation to the poor in Nicaragua for one example.

In any event no matter how much you make raising a child to become a pro tennis player is a lot of money.

Where is this defined? Poor in the usa I though was an income of less then $1136 a month and half or more own a home? Never heard that one either. Maybe they have an apartmemt and are on food stamps and assisted housing..but own a home? I doubt that more.then half the poor and in the usa own homes. I work in human services and deal with the poor daily and none of the people i deal with and work with own their own homes..most.cannot even afford a pass for public transportation.

I do agree though that the poor in the USA are qay better off then the poor in 3rd world countires because we have government programs meant to aid the poor. But that doesnt leam our poor arent still straggling along living paycheck to paycheck.

pmerk34
03-13-2012, 09:46 AM
Where is this defined? Poor in the usa I though was an income of less then $1136 a month and half or more own a home? Never heard that one either. Maybe they have an apartmemt and are on food stamps and assisted housing..but own a home? I doubt that more.then half the poor and in the usa own homes. I work in human services and deal with the poor daily and none of the people i deal with and work with own their own homes..most.cannot even afford a pass for public transportation.

I do agree though that the poor in the USA are qay better off then the poor in 3rd world countires because we have government programs meant to aid the poor. But that doesnt leam our poor arent still straggling along living paycheck to paycheck.

I saw the stats somewhere i will have to get the source. Most poverty in this country is due to single parent households. Married couples are much less lively to be in poverty.

In any event this is off topic. The fact is that Sam Querrey did not grow up poor.

pmerk34
03-13-2012, 09:47 AM
Was'nt Yannick Noah poor?

Poor in tennis nowdays is not being able to afford Federers new clothing line.

Its become a freaking elitist sport thanks to organizations like the USTA.

A recession in the United States means you can't lease a new Lexus for the third time

Bjorn99
03-13-2012, 09:50 AM
If you want to go poor, get your kid addicted to tennis. Great way to pour hundreds of thousands in, with little to no possibility of a return.

pmerk34
03-13-2012, 09:51 AM
If you want to go poor, get your kid addicted to tennis. Great way to pour hundreds of thousands in, with little to no possibility of a return.

Good point

magnut
03-13-2012, 09:54 AM
Guys I hate to sound cold but much of the poor in the United States is by choice.

Honestly for me its not much of a concern. We are not rich and live very modest. We also dont accept governemnt handouts.

There is just a huge segment of the population in the US that choose to be poor now because its easier than working for a living.

magnut
03-13-2012, 09:56 AM
If you want to go poor, get your kid addicted to tennis. Great way to pour hundreds of thousands in, with little to no possibility of a return.


Thats really funny. This sport attracts more suckers than a $100 bill downtown on a friday night.

pmerk34
03-13-2012, 09:57 AM
Guys I hate to sound cold but much of the poor in the United States is by choice.

Honestly for me its not much of a concern. We are not rich and live very modest. We also dont accept governemnt handouts.

There is just a huge segment of the population in the US that choose to be poor now because its easier than working for a living.

We all know this. Nothing controversial or shocking there. Just like the Gov't will pay teenagers in NY for an apt and a certain amount of money for each out of wedlock child. Even a 5th grader understands incentives. Generational welfare is a way of life to some people.

Crisstti
03-13-2012, 10:06 AM
Nadal's father has a multitude of businesses all of which are not overly capital intensive and should be providing consistent cash flows. They also own the apartment building they live in, in addition to several other real estate properties.

So let's iron this out. Nadal may have been given poor quality stuff to play with, but his family is much more wealthy than Federer's family ever was.

I have no idea of Federer's background, but from what I understand Nadal's family was not poor at all. I think their bussiness were worth millions. Plus, as SLD said, his uncle (can't remember his name) who played for Barcelona and the Spanish national team must have made millions.

FlashFlare11
03-13-2012, 10:10 AM
Guys I hate to sound cold but much of the poor in the United States is by choice.

Honestly for me its not much of a concern. We are not rich and live very modest. We also dont accept governemnt handouts.

There is just a huge segment of the population in the US that choose to be poor now because its easier than working for a living.

It's not just because they'd rather live on welfare, they don't have any priorities. Do you know what really bothers me? When I see people living in a dump but have a Lexus or another luxury car. I mean, at least give yourself a nicer place to live, if not for you, then for your children.

magnut
03-13-2012, 10:13 AM
It's not just because they'd rather live on welfare, they don't have any priorities. Do you know what really bothers me? When I see people living in a dump but have a Lexus or another luxury car. I mean, at least give yourself a nicer place to live, if not for you, then for your children.

If you do that you lose the check

FlashFlare11
03-13-2012, 10:21 AM
If you do that you lose the check

That's absolutely crazy. People can literally maniuplate the welfare system to their will. And there's nothing we can do about it.

reversef
03-13-2012, 10:26 AM
Was'nt Yannick Noah poor?

Poor in tennis nowdays is not being able to afford Federers new clothing line.

Its become a freaking elitist sport thanks to organizations like the USTA.

Yannick Noah? Not really. :)

norcal
03-13-2012, 10:31 AM
Davydenko and his brother lived out of their car while the played challengers. Really don't get any more poor than that. Well he wised up and started fixing matches for the Russian mob. Now he can afford to live out of a Lambo.

The Baseline
03-13-2012, 03:05 PM
Haha :lol: Karlovic is alright. I think Ferrer was having a hard time competing on the challenger tour and went back to brick laying but he decided to work harder at tennis and look at the money he has now..... 11 mill :shock: Another poor kid was Nadal. He used the cheapest everything when he was young. He used duralast strings, apparently they were the cheapest.

Ferrer was a former bricklayer, then decided one day that he wasnt making anything and took his tennis more seriously. Ferrer is such a blue collar hero to everyone. Nadal wasnt poor. Nadals family i believe owned a window company i believe. But Ferrer is the ultimate grinder, a working class hero that has risen to one of the best in the world.

The Baseline
03-13-2012, 03:11 PM
The way poor is defined in the United States means the avg poor person here has two ( might be three) televisions, wifi, and more than half of our poor own a home. And I don't know what % of the poor in the US are obese or overweight. Now I'm certainly glad I made decisions in my life so I am not among our poor but our poor have no relation to the poor in Nicaragua for one example.

In any event no matter how much you make raising a child to become a pro tennis player is a lot of money.

i dont know about all that.

jayoub95
03-13-2012, 04:26 PM
I have heard so many different things in this thread about Nadal being average/wealthy/poor. Its really confusing :confused:

seattle_1hander
03-13-2012, 07:40 PM
I would venture to say that no Tennis Star in history was ever dirt poor/lived below the poverty line. Granted some came from the Soviet Block or war-stricken countries...but tennis requires at bare minimum discretionary family allowance. So stars in other sports (Soccer for example with players from Africa and South America), could actually be poor and make it because there isn't that requirement on the family.

Basketball and Football (Soccer) for example have public courts/pitches, and typically need only one ball for a group. Soccer may not even require shoes. And we also see great amounts of public/charitable funding towards these sports for youths around the world. You might say tennis has this, but not nearly to the extent other sports do, and not nearly as pervasive enough to cull a star player (not enough programs to generate a star in terms of probability).

Leto
03-13-2012, 08:09 PM
I have heard so many different things in this thread about Nadal being average/wealthy/poor. Its really confusing :confused:

I read somewhere that Nadal's family was so poor, they could only afford to buy him a left-handed racket :shock:

Evan77
03-13-2012, 09:19 PM
I read somewhere that Nadal's family was so poor, they could only afford to buy him a left-handed racket :shock:
lol... good one man, haha

SLD76
03-13-2012, 09:22 PM
I would venture to say that no Tennis Star in history was ever dirt poor/lived below the poverty line. Granted some came from the Soviet Block or war-stricken countries...but tennis requires at bare minimum discretionary family allowance. So stars in other sports (Soccer for example with players from Africa and South America), could actually be poor and make it because there isn't that requirement on the family.

Basketball and Football (Soccer) for example have public courts/pitches, and typically need only one ball for a group. Soccer may not even require shoes. And we also see great amounts of public/charitable funding towards these sports for youths around the world. You might say tennis has this, but not nearly to the extent other sports do, and not nearly as pervasive enough to cull a star player (not enough programs to generate a star in terms of probability).


pretty much this.

jayoub95
03-13-2012, 09:57 PM
I read somewhere that Nadal's family was so poor, they could only afford to buy him a left-handed racket :shock:

Left handed tennis racquet?? dude left handers and right handers play with the same tennis racquet although the branding, specks and technical stuff are different. There is no such thing as a left handed tennis racquet.

ClairHarmony
03-13-2012, 10:24 PM
Jimmy Connors wasn't exactly well off financially in his childhood.


But Jimmy Connors had something better than being rich...he had a *chip* on his shoulder the size of Gibraltar. His "personality"/mental make-up was already naturally *chippy* to begin with, being an ISTP like McEnroe, Connors, Bird, Chang, Muster, Jordan, Bird, Navratalova, et. all...BUT, then add an actual *reason* to be chippy, and you've got something not just good, but GREAT.

Connors approached each and every match like this: either you're dead, or me; now get out of my way!

That alone is worth a victory most of the time. But then add, boxer roots from ol' gramps, and then his equally fiesty mother Gloria, "Get Out of My Son's Way!" Connors? Raising her son as a single mom? And...but the KEY thing here is that it doesn't matter that Connors wasn't rich.

Who was his primary kick his *** all the time coach? That's right, his mom. She cried when her son finally beat her...*approaching* his teens. Meaning, she was a kick *** player herself. In fact, wasn't she a teaching pro? Yup, that's right, and thus able to transfer *more* than just the fundamentals to Connors' game, 24/7. Dude, was *bred* with a "me against the world" mentality, and it showed in his constant brewing on court.

Money is important, but just as important is having those who are *in tune* with your goals. So much of *maintaining* greatness, is about achieving...an *entourage.* Does a prize fighter walk out with chimps telling him you suck, you're going to lose, and when is "Family Guy" on?

A resounding no. To continue beating the best, it certainly helps to be surrounded by people who will do whatever it takes to make you focus ONLY on what's most important to them...be great, so therefore I too may bask in a moment of your profound glory. It's a once in a lifetime chance, and to "make it," all must ignore resident reality.

The problem sometimes arises though that "stars" having once made it, surround themselves with the wrong kind of people. Those who don't know what it takes, what is most necessary, most important at all times. ClubFed has not made that mistake. M.C. Chang, likewise. It's a very selfish pursuit, art and sport, and politics, and so forth. If it's not about you, you, you, 24/7...well, you're unlikely to make it, ontop of already a billion to 1 odds.

So much of junior development, is *time* as much as it is expense. How did Dan Broderick get past not having ample time for his kids? Caretakers. Paid caretakers. Whose going to cart you to "events" that come in a continual stream, year round? For Philipoussis, his dad, the former banker, gave that up to become a taxi driver...why? He simply needed more *flexibility*. Make more as a banker, but then again, at the same time *lose control*, input, of the ultimate direction you hope for your child to take. If you REALLY think your kid's got that 1 in a billion chance to be among the top 100 in the world, that's a chance MANY parents are willing to take *at any cost.*

Connors to me, being not wealthy, was hardly a factor at all. He was in fact, *LUCKY*. He got the genuine nurture that only a parent can give, he got the endlessly valuable resource that *time* is (ever check what Robert Landsdorp is able to get away with charging per hour? And yet people still lineup to pay, even the less than wealthy parent, will try, try, try their best to find a way to squeeze a lesson in with a "known" star producer. Why? Because, after all, it's not every parent that can brag that they think their kid *may* have the "right stuff," the kind of stuff you can't memorize, or "work out" on a paper, like an accountant question, I mean equation).

And, after endless time, that *whatever it takes,* time is NOT entering into the equation, mentality...what follows next in importance, is "qualified" help.

Judging by how long it took Connors to whoop on that mom, you best believe she could play herself, *knew what it took,* and that her desire to go the extra mile for her pupil did not require a king's ransom. Truth, you can only pass on so much knowledge in a lesson, or else they're gone. Why does it seem that the organizations like the FDA who should be most obsessed with *saving* lives, are more concerned with *stringing you along.* How do you string a celebrity along? By latching onto their endlessly deep pockets and never letting go, like an octypuss. *Treat* them...just don't let them get away. Treat, *not* cure. The "planned obsolescence" of "technology" by marketing teams to keep the profits rolling. Witholding the next great processor advancement, because well, we haven't made enough on this one yet. How long can we "drag" this out, without a) you suspecting it, and b) *losing you.*

What a *****ly balancing act that is. One, Connors never had to worry about...he was training to be the best, not worrying about where the next paycheck would come, to feed the professional star makers' primary motives.

If you ask me, Connors had it good. He had just about the ideal living arrangement for someone trying to *eliminate* all the odds that get in the way of making it. Look at the difference in history made between Tyson falling into the right hands, and out. That's just the way it is. In every generation, a small handful will have what it takes, and for things to get mucked up...it takes only a little. The closer you get, the less and less it is about odds; it's about clear thinking; insert, precision.

Like I say, it really helps to be surrouned by those who a) know what they're doing, but b) *have the right motives.* One 1 hand, I know what's easier to buy; on the other, *you know what's harder to find.*

True grit, character, resolve. Prime Rios or Connors, quick, who wins in a spitting for distance fight? Hard to say. Who wins at retracting that spit, to churn it into something more? Who will win only once in awhile, only when all is well; who will win all the while continually relearning to savor his own vile?

Some call it spit, I call it fortitude. A great lawyer can teach you that too.

NLBwell
03-13-2012, 10:33 PM
I would venture to say that no Tennis Star in history was ever dirt poor/lived below the poverty line.

VERY WRONG! Pancho Segura was so short and bowlegged because he suffered from malnutrition as a child.
Pretty much dirt poor.

ClairHarmony
03-13-2012, 10:43 PM
The reason why there are so many up and coming European players is because they don't have as much as some other wealthier countries. If i was poor and i wanted to be a pro tennis player i sure as hell would be on the court as much as possible because if i didn't make it i would have no education because my parents couldn't afford it. It's called motivation. If you have no motivation then your not going to do anything. I'm not having a go at you by saying all this, i'm just trying to show you where i'm coming from.

But there is a limit to this line of reasoning. There is only so much "push" that a will can give. At some point, the will merely seeks a sigh of relief...one's final moment, can never feel so sweet as when it comes now. Fortunately, while an animal's will can be broken, not man's. Some find a way to breathe with conviction anyway, just for the sake of it.

stringertom
03-14-2012, 06:48 AM
110+ posts in this thread, many of them off-topic and mindlessly ignorant regarding socioeconomic reality, and not one mention of the other Pancho who grew up poor...Pancho Gonzalez.

BTW, if the poster who claims poverty in the US is by choice is still reading this, come take a tour of South Florida with me. I will show you an apartheid that still exists and is perpetuated by a grinding poverty similar to third world reality. East of I-95: wealth beyond imagination; west of I-95: quicksand poverty. Come on down...it'll only take a couple of hours to go from Palm Beach to Belle Glade.

pmerk34
03-14-2012, 06:52 AM
110+ posts in this thread, many of them off-topic and mindlessly ignorant regarding socioeconomic reality, and not one mention of the other Pancho who grew up poor...Pancho Gonzalez.

BTW, if the poster who claims poverty in the US is by choice is still reading this, come take a tour of South Florida with me. I will show you an apartheid that still exists and is perpetuated by a grinding poverty similar to third world reality. East of I-95: wealth beyond imagination; west of I-95: quicksand poverty. Come on down...it'll only take a couple of hours to go from Palm Beach to Belle Glade.

Recent third world migrants often bring third world poverty and life habits with them. It is up to them to change that when they arrive here. If you don't believe that we have nothing to discuss.

More important is the fact that John McEnroe did not grow up dirt poor.

stringertom
03-14-2012, 07:51 AM
Recent third world migrants often bring third world poverty and life habits with them. It is up to them to change that when they arrive here. If you don't believe that we have nothing to discuss.

More important is the fact that John McEnroe did not grow up dirt poor.

Ignorance is bliss...Everglades' poor are mostly natives of Florida, whom migrants from other countries would never try to displace due to the historically extreme poverty of that area. The high school football rivalries (Glades Central vs Pahokee) have produced many NFL stars because that path to wealth is, for many, the only way out of their extreme socioeconomic plight. Like I said, come on down and see for yourself. To pull yourself up by the bootstraps, you must afford the boots.

stringertom
03-14-2012, 07:56 AM
Yannick Noah? Not really. :)

IIRC, wasn't Noah "discovered" by Ashe on a visit to Africa and then expatriated by the FTF to develop in France???

pmerk34
03-14-2012, 08:19 AM
Ignorance is bliss...Everglades' poor are mostly natives of Florida, whom migrants from other countries would never try to displace due to the historically extreme poverty of that area. The high school football rivalries (Glades Central vs Pahokee) have produced many NFL stars because that path to wealth is, for many, the only way out of their extreme socioeconomic plight. Like I said, come on down and see for yourself. To pull yourself up by the bootstraps, you must afford the boots.

Then they have even less of an excuse.

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 09:47 AM
110+ posts in this thread, many of them off-topic and mindlessly ignorant regarding socioeconomic reality, and not one mention of the other Pancho who grew up poor...Pancho Gonzalez.

BTW, if the poster who claims poverty in the US is by choice is still reading this, come take a tour of South Florida with me. I will show you an apartheid that still exists and is perpetuated by a grinding poverty similar to third world reality. East of I-95: wealth beyond imagination; west of I-95: quicksand poverty. Come on down...it'll only take a couple of hours to go from Palm Beach to Belle Glade.

hell he should go to mississippi the poorest state in the country.

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 09:51 AM
The way poor is defined in the United States means the avg poor person here has two ( might be three) televisions, wifi, and more than half of our poor own a home. And I don't know what % of the poor in the US are obese or overweight. Now I'm certainly glad I made decisions in my life so I am not among our poor but our poor have no relation to the poor in Nicaragua for one example.

In any event no matter how much you make raising a child to become a pro tennis player is a lot of money.

there is a thing called the poverty line and many ppl in this country are below it. the poverty line is an international standard so anyone below it is poor regardless of country. as in regards to this country you have to be well below it to recieve benefits like welfare,etc.

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 09:55 AM
There is not dirt poor in the states really. We would have to look at other countries and then the answer is probably no

honestly you need to see more of the country then you won't make such wrong headed statements.

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 09:58 AM
Ignorance is bliss...Everglades' poor are mostly natives of Florida, whom migrants from other countries would never try to displace due to the historically extreme poverty of that area. The high school football rivalries (Glades Central vs Pahokee) have produced many NFL stars because that path to wealth is, for many, the only way out of their extreme socioeconomic plight. Like I said, come on down and see for yourself. To pull yourself up by the bootstraps, you must afford the boots.

exactly, but you have to remember we are dealing with suburb brats who have never had to worry about anything beyond when was their next piano lesson...

pmerk34
03-14-2012, 10:35 AM
honestly you need to see more of the country then you won't make such wrong headed statements.

Maybe I'll take a 50 state tour like you apparently have

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 10:37 AM
Maybe I'll take a 50 state tour like you apparently have

1 state, any state would prove my point, but even in long island there is poverty.

pmerk34
03-14-2012, 10:37 AM
exactly, but you have to remember we are dealing with suburb brats who have never had to worry about anything beyond when was their next piano lesson...

Nah sorry pal, I got an education and work for my money to provide for my family and got some help along the way like we all have. If you make good choices good things happen. If not you can cry on a tennis board I guess.

JeMar
03-14-2012, 10:38 AM
There was an article in tennis mag about djokovic over the summer, and yeah, pretty sure his family was spending most of their money on his tennis and barely scraping by. Sharapovas dad basically used all of his money to send her to bolleteris when she was younger iirc.

Someone else may have pointed this out, seeing how I am on page 1 of a 7-page thread, but there was a TC special in which Djokovic mentioned that his parents had to go to something that sounded like loan sharks in order to afford his training and traveling.

pmerk34
03-14-2012, 10:39 AM
1 state, any state would prove my point, but even in long island there is poverty.

But guess what it isn't like Nicaragua for one example.

pmerk34
03-14-2012, 10:44 AM
Someone else may have pointed this out, seeing how I am on page 1 of a 7-page thread, but there was a TC special in which Djokovic mentioned that his parents had to go to something that sounded like loan sharks in order to afford his training and traveling.

The raise a tennis star without going into debt you have be wealthy

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 10:48 AM
Nah sorry pal, I got an education and work for my money to provide for my family and got some help along the way like we all have. If you make good choices good things happen. If not you can cry on a tennis board I guess.

neither of those points i disagree with, but that is the point really. you had access to a good education and that drastically increases your options. if you come from a place with bad/underfunded schools, your options will be limited.

btw, there is no crying, just a correction of your faulty points on what constitutes poverty, does it exist in this country and whether its poor ppl's fault for being poor. all of these to show a complete lack of knowledge on the subject on your end.

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 10:50 AM
But guess what it isn't like Nicaragua for one example.

nicaragua isn't the ceiling for poverty. there are varying levels......

pmerk34
03-14-2012, 10:54 AM
neither of those points i disagree with, but that is the point really. you had access to a good education and that drastically increases your options. if you come from a place with bad/underfunded schools, your options will be limited.

btw, there is no crying, just a correction of your faulty points on what constitutes poverty, does it exist in this country and whether its poor ppl's fault for being poor. all of these to show a complete lack of knowledge on the subject on your end.

No, disagreeing with you on why poverty exists or how someone can remedy their situation doesn't show a "complete lack of knowledge" on my part. IT's called debate.

BTW Sam Querrey's parent made good financial choices by all indications and if he can stay injury free he will be top 20 again.

pmerk34
03-14-2012, 10:55 AM
nicaragua isn't the ceiling for poverty. there are varying levels......

That's true but when I think dirt poor I think of what I see down there. Not what I see here. That is all.

sportsfan1
03-14-2012, 11:04 AM
Sharapova, Djokovic, etc. "dirt poor" growing up? ... makes me laugh
....


You hit the nail on the head. People are all too eager to exaggerate/invent/lap up stories that rival those of Hollywood movies - hungry kid playing tennis with bombs going off in the background.
If the definition of 'poor' is not being able to afford to get (multiple) kids the best tennis coaching available and chaperon them to the many tournaments that they have to travel to, then wouldn't that place most of the US middle class in that bracket?
There's a whole another thread on TT - admittedly I haven't read through in detail- where people complain on how much it costs to either be or raise a tennis playing kid, and it's not exactly affordable. But can't afford tennis career is NOT equal to poor, let alone "dirt poor".

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 11:19 AM
No, disagreeing with you on why poverty exists or how someone can remedy their situation doesn't show a "complete lack of knowledge" on my part. IT's called debate.

BTW Sam Querrey's parent made good financial choices by all indications and if he can stay injury free he will be top 20 again.

you said it didn't exist and said it only is because ppl make bad choices. this is a debate, but your opinion comes from a place of not knowing about basic facts in the situation, that's why you make the argument you do. if you were knowledgeable about the subject you wouldn't make the arguments you do.

querry has the choices to reach than goal because he had the opportunity to have tennis lessons, etc to help him on this path....

pmerk34
03-14-2012, 11:29 AM
you said it didn't exist and said it only is because ppl make bad choices. this is a debate, but your opinion comes from a place of not knowing about basic facts in the situation, that's why you make the argument you do. if you were knowledgeable about the subject you wouldn't make the arguments you do.

querry has the choices to reach than goal because he had the opportunity to have tennis lessons, etc to help him on this path....

Yeah and you mentioned the ever popular underfunded school nonsense argument. Talk about lack of knowledge.

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 11:31 AM
That's true but when I think dirt poor I think of what I see down there. Not what I see here. That is all.

you have a right to your opinion, but you shouldn't assume just because something doesn't meet your threshold that it still isn't case.

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 11:33 AM
Yeah and you mentioned the ever popular underfunded school nonsense argument. Talk about lack of knowledge.

so all schools are equal throughout the country. instead of calling it nonsense why don't you back with factual information.

seattle_1hander
03-14-2012, 12:34 PM
there is a thing called the poverty line and many ppl in this country are below it. the poverty line is an international standard so anyone below it is poor regardless of country. as in regards to this country you have to be well below it to recieve benefits like welfare,etc.

There is also a thing called absolute poverty. Absolute poverty is insecure or inconsistent opportunities to acquire the basic necessities of survival. By the very nature of the fact that we live in the United States, the most powerful economy in the world, we have, as a byproduct, charitable foundations/avenues/capabilities which countries like Somalia could never have given the national economy. Granted, all things being equal, an unemployed mother of 5 in Atlanta is the same as an Unemployed mother of 5 in Mogadishu, but we have paved streets, cleaner public water, and a citizenry capable and more willing to help people. US poor are relatively impoverished, not absolutely.

pmerk34
03-14-2012, 12:58 PM
There is also a thing called absolute poverty. Absolute poverty is insecure or inconsistent opportunities to acquire the basic necessities of survival. By the very nature of the fact that we live in the United States, the most powerful economy in the world, we have, as a byproduct, charitable foundations/avenues/capabilities which countries like Somalia could never have given the national economy. Granted, all things being equal, an unemployed mother of 5 in Atlanta is the same as an Unemployed mother of 5 in Mogadishu, but we have paved streets, cleaner public water, and a citizenry capable and more willing to help people. US poor are relatively impoverished, not absolutely.

We also have jobs. They may not be jobs a person in poverty is qualified for. they may not be what I would consider a "good" job but there are jobs and you can work two of them if needed to. I doubt the want ads in Mogadishu are as promising

seattle_1hander
03-14-2012, 01:05 PM
We also have jobs. They may not be jobs a person in poverty is qualified for. they may not be what I would consider a "good" job but there are jobs and you can work two of them if needed to. I doubt the want ads in Mogadishu are as promising

Well said. We used to have a business-friendly economy. Whatever it is we have now, it still offers more opportunity than any truly poor place. Dirt poor=devoid of resources and opportunities. Lazy=devoid of resources.

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 01:14 PM
There is also a thing called absolute poverty. Absolute poverty is insecure or inconsistent opportunities to acquire the basic necessities of survival. By the very nature of the fact that we live in the United States, the most powerful economy in the world, we have, as a byproduct, charitable foundations/avenues/capabilities which countries like Somalia could never have given the national economy. Granted, all things being equal, an unemployed mother of 5 in Atlanta is the same as an Unemployed mother of 5 in Mogadishu, but we have paved streets, cleaner public water, and a citizenry capable and more willing to help people. US poor are relatively impoverished, not absolutely.

reread my posts where did i say all conditions were the same? i never said america was equal to or worse then third world nations. and yes the us has many tools like charity, etc but that is a limited solution to the structural inequalities in this country that create poverty.

reversef
03-14-2012, 01:21 PM
IIRC, wasn't Noah "discovered" by Ashe on a visit to Africa and then expatriated by the FTF to develop in France???
Yes, it's true. I think that Ashe discovered him in Cameroon. But the fact that he was living there doesn't mean he was dirt poor. His father was a football champion and his mother was a teacher. It's not my definition of "dirt poor".

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 01:39 PM
We also have jobs. They may not be jobs a person in poverty is qualified for. they may not be what I would consider a "good" job but there are jobs and you can work two of them if needed to. I doubt the want ads in Mogadishu are as promising

Well said. We used to have a business-friendly economy. Whatever it is we have now, it still offers more opportunity than any truly poor place. Dirt poor=devoid of resources and opportunities. Lazy=devoid of resources.

two people who have never experienced any of these issues talking out of their backside....surprise,surprise! yes their are jobs but do they actually help you live a sustainable existence, you know the whole point of a job in the first place. you act like this two job thing is some kind of revelation. most ppl do that to survive. guess what subsistence is still poverty.......because if you get sick and miss a day, you don't get paid. guess what that means if you live hand to mouth.

and to your friend- i love to hear your definition of a business friendly enviroment because over the last 30 years corporate profit has gone up, while real wages have stagnated when adjusted to the cost of living and inflation. so what might be good for a company might not be good for its workers. and yes their are some opportunities, but i like told your friend the goal is to be above the mendoza line of impoverishment. so being better than bangladesh isn't something to rave about.

and like i told you your comrade-in-arms, working two jobs and still struggling does traditionally qualify as lazy. real laziness is wall street folks who made billions destroying the economy asking for a bailout.

seattle_1hander
03-14-2012, 01:44 PM
reread my posts where did i say all conditions were the same? i never said america was equal to or worse then third world nations. and yes the us has many tools like charity, etc but that is a limited solution to the structural inequalities in this country that create poverty.

I guess I was confused by this...

there is a thing called the poverty line and many ppl in this country are below it. the poverty line is an international standard so anyone below it is poor regardless of country. as in regards to this country you have to be well below it to recieve benefits like welfare,etc.


Poor is very different here than it is on other continents. End of discussion. The structural problems creating a permanent underclass are innumerable (the Drug War being the most obvious). But even in that regard, the US's structural problems are far less substantial than other nation's structural problems.

pmerk34
03-14-2012, 01:44 PM
two people who have never experienced any of these issues talking out of their backside....surprise,surprise! yes their are jobs but do they actually help you live a sustainable existence, you know the whole point of a job in the first place. you act like this two job thing is some kind of revelation. most ppl do that to survive. guess what subsistence is still poverty.......because if you get sick and miss a day, you don't get paid. guess what that means if you live hand to mouth.

and to your friend- i love to hear your definition of a business friendly enviroment because over the last 30 years corporate profit has gone up, while real wages have stagnated when adjusted to the cost of living and inflation. so what might be good for a company might not be good for its workers. and yes their are some opportunities, but i like told your friend the goal is to be above the mendoza line of impoverishment. so being better than bangladesh isn't something to rave about.



and like i told you your comrade-in-arms, working two jobs and still struggling does traditionally qualify as lazy. real laziness is wall street folks who made billions destroying the economy asking for a bailout.

well now it all comes out you aren't interested in poverty you are interested in your political view. BTW we don't know each other and you don't know anything about me or where I've been or how poor or rich I am or was so keep the personal attacks out.

seattle_1hander
03-14-2012, 01:55 PM
two people who have never experienced any of these issues talking out of their backside....surprise,surprise! yes their are jobs but do they actually help you live a sustainable existence, you know the whole point of a job in the first place. you act like this two job thing is some kind of revelation. most ppl do that to survive. guess what subsistence is still poverty.......because if you get sick and miss a day, you don't get paid. guess what that means if you live hand to mouth.

and to your friend- i love to hear your definition of a business friendly enviroment because over the last 30 years corporate profit has gone up, while real wages have stagnated when adjusted to the cost of living and inflation. so what might be good for a company might not be good for its workers. and yes their are some opportunities, but i like told your friend the goal is to be above the mendoza line of impoverishment. so being better than bangladesh isn't something to rave about.

and like i told you your comrade-in-arms, working two jobs and still struggling does traditionally qualify as lazy. real laziness is wall street folks who made billions destroying the economy asking for a bailout.

Unquestionably, we've had a corporate welfare state over much of the 20th century and all of the 21st. Unquestionably we've had a stupid, racially biased drug war helping to keep the lower class socially stagnant. Unquestionably we've killed job creation.

You're confusing what I said though. Opportunity to me isn't a low-paying job a person is overqualified for. However, your political worldview and your assumption of what my political worldview is (inaccurate) isn't allowing you to speak with an open mind. No need to continue.

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 02:04 PM
I guess I was confused by this...




Poor is very different here than it is on other continents. End of discussion. The structural problems creating a permanent underclass are innumerable (the Drug War being the most obvious). But even in that regard, the US's structural problems are far less substantial than other nation's structural problems.

the poverty line is an international measure of income to sustain yourself in a country. i used it as an example to say that even in a country as rich as ours ppl still struggle to live.

SLD76
03-14-2012, 02:06 PM
Unquestionably, we've had a corporate welfare state over much of the 20th century and all of the 21st. Unquestionably we've had a stupid, racially biased drug war helping to keep the lower class socially stagnant. Unquestionably we've killed job creation.

You're confusing what I said though. Opportunity to me isn't a low-paying job a person is overqualified for. However, your political worldview and your assumption of what my political worldview is (inaccurate) isn't allowing you to speak with an open mind. No need to continue.

I think he took issue with you and pmerk seemingly dismissing poverty or poor people in the US as 'lazy people not working hard enough'. Not saying that is what you or he meant, but...I admit, it rankled me a bit how you seemed to be framing the discussion. Dont be too hard on Terra, clearly he may either speak from experience of a hard up bringing or knows people who have experienced such.

plenty of americans work very hard and little to nothing to show for it at the end of the day, meanwhile the cost of gas keeps getting higher and higher...

as to the bolded part, I agree.

And no, few to no pro tennis players were 'dirt poor'. they may have been lower middle class but not poor. and even if their families were not well off, eventually, somewhere somehow someone or some institution provided the money to get their kids training.

Kobble
03-14-2012, 02:29 PM
I think the lesson people will learn about tennis is that the days of getting by without a lot of money are over. Unless, you happen to have a parent who was an ex-pro or division one player who had some misfortune financially, I wouldn't expect it. I've seen it numerous times. The richest are 3-4 times more likely to succeed in my opinion. Meaning, make it into the top 200.

One possibility is creating a tennis network for the broke. Like a Bolletieri like social system where people can meet to practice with the best locally. Even that will not beat a tennis compound of facing the best around the globe everyday, though. After that, there is still tournament expenses, which the rich will enter far more and dominate that too.

I think developing a player who takes the John Isner path is the most realistic for an average family.

SLD76
03-14-2012, 02:34 PM
I think the lesson people will learn about tennis is that the days of getting by without a lot of money are over. Unless, you happen to have a parent who was an ex-pro or division one player who had some misfortune financially, I wouldn't expect it. I've seen it numerous times. The richest are 3-4 times more likely to succeed in my opinion. Meaning, make it into the top 200.

One possibility is creating a tennis network for the broke. Like a Bolletieri like social system where people can meet to practice with the best locally. Even that will not beat a tennis compound of facing the best around the globe everyday, though. After that, there is still tournament expenses, which the rich will enter far more and dominate that too.

I think developing a player who takes the John Isner path is the most realistic for an average family.

I said in a different thread that tennis needs to be as accessible as little leage football, baseball and community basketball/soccer if it wants to find talented kids.

but that is easier said than done. the dynamic of a team sport where you dont need to be as developed to play a match and have fun is really hard to overcome when trying to attract the youth.

seattle_1hander
03-14-2012, 02:35 PM
I think the lesson people will learn about tennis is that the days of getting by without a lot of money are over. Unless, you happen to have a parent who was an ex-pro or division one player who had some misfortune financially, I wouldn't expect it. I've seen it numerous times. The richest are 3-4 times more likely to succeed in my opinion. Meaning, make it into the top 200.

One possibility is creating a tennis network for the broke. Like a Bolletieri like social system where people can meet to practice with the best locally. Even that will not beat a tennis compound of facing the best around the globe everyday, though. After that, there is still tournament expenses, which the rich will enter far more and dominate that too.

I think developing a player who takes the John Isner path is the most realistic for an average family.

I have 2 responses to this. First, I think your lucid observation is essentially applicable to life nowadays. You pretty much are where you are and will stay there. To be in the upper-echelon, you need an inside path or an advantage handed to you at birth. Sure there's still a sense of having to earn it...but only amongst those who have been given a certain amount at birth.

Second, I typically hate the stupid threads concerning "what if NFL/NBA/UEFA athletes joined the tennis ranks?" It's really dumb and insults the amazing ability of ATP stars. However, when discussions like this current one comes up, I do see the point a lot of people are getting at. We may have, without knowing it and since the dawn of professional tennis, been dealing with unfettered mediocrity subsidized by the fact that tennis is inaccessible to much of the world's population...or...at the very least....the opportunity to make it big is inaccessible to much of the world's population.

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 02:45 PM
well now it all comes out you aren't interested in poverty you are interested in your political view. BTW we don't know each other and you don't know anything about me or where I've been or how poor or rich I am or was so keep the personal attacks out.

what political views? it's a fact, both conservatives and liberals agree with the part wall street played in the economic crisis and many of them disagree with the bailout given thereafter. and as for the rest, you started out saying there was no poverty in the us and only considered the nicaraguas of the world as the only places you considered as having poverty.

TERRASTAR18
03-14-2012, 02:48 PM
Unquestionably, we've had a corporate welfare state over much of the 20th century and all of the 21st. Unquestionably we've had a stupid, racially biased drug war helping to keep the lower class socially stagnant. Unquestionably we've killed job creation.

You're confusing what I said though. Opportunity to me isn't a low-paying job a person is overqualified for. However, your political worldview and your assumption of what my political worldview is (inaccurate) isn't allowing you to speak with an open mind. No need to continue.

i responded to what you said and that's the way i interpreted it....

The Baseline
03-14-2012, 02:49 PM
I think the lesson people will learn about tennis is that the days of getting by without a lot of money are over. Unless, you happen to have a parent who was an ex-pro or division one player who had some misfortune financially, I wouldn't expect it. I've seen it numerous times. The richest are 3-4 times more likely to succeed in my opinion. Meaning, make it into the top 200.

One possibility is creating a tennis network for the broke. Like a Bolletieri like social system where people can meet to practice with the best locally. Even that will not beat a tennis compound of facing the best around the globe everyday, though. After that, there is still tournament expenses, which the rich will enter far more and dominate that too.

I think developing a player who takes the John Isner path is the most realistic for an average family.

John Isner grew up extremely wealthy.

Kobble
03-14-2012, 03:19 PM
John Isner grew up extremely wealthy.Ok. I thought going through the college ranks earned him support for wildcards etc.

Kobble
03-14-2012, 03:40 PM
I have 2 responses to this. First, I think your lucid observation is essentially applicable to life nowadays. You pretty much are where you are and will stay there. To be in the upper-echelon, you need an inside path or an advantage handed to you at birth. Sure there's still a sense of having to earn it...but only amongst those who have been given a certain amount at birth.

Second, I typically hate the stupid threads concerning "what if NFL/NBA/UEFA athletes joined the tennis ranks?" It's really dumb and insults the amazing ability of ATP stars. However, when discussions like this current one comes up, I do see the point a lot of people are getting at. We may have, without knowing it and since the dawn of professional tennis, been dealing with unfettered mediocrity subsidized by the fact that tennis is inaccessible to much of the world's population...or...at the very least....the opportunity to make it big is inaccessible to much of the world's population.
I think it goes without saying that when the economy is bad we are competing for few spots. After the people who have parents with influence work all there magic, there isn't much left for anyone else. It is really bad right now.

If I had a kid in early HS, I don't even know what I would suggest.

NLBwell
03-14-2012, 08:34 PM
110+ posts in this thread, many of them off-topic and mindlessly ignorant regarding socioeconomic reality, and not one mention of the other Pancho who grew up poor...Pancho Gonzalez.

.

Wrong, I mentioned him earlier in the thread.

NLBwell
03-14-2012, 08:38 PM
There is no absolute poverty in the U.S. comparable to third-world countries. Poverty in the U.S. is relative to other Americans. Anyone who thinks there is any poverty in the U.S. comparable to other nations has no knowledge of the world.

pmerk34
03-15-2012, 04:25 AM
what political views? it's a fact, both conservatives and liberals agree with the part wall street played in the economic crisis and many of them disagree with the bailout given thereafter. and as for the rest, you started out saying there was no poverty in the us and only considered the nicaraguas of the world as the only places you considered as having poverty.

No, what I said was we do not have poverty like a country like Nicaragua and you stated some place in southern Florida as proof we do. I never said there was "no poverty" in the US but when I think of "dirt poor" with no opportunities to better your financial situation through no fault of your own, then the United States is off that list.

TERRASTAR18
03-15-2012, 12:29 PM
There is no absolute poverty in the U.S. comparable to third-world countries. Poverty in the U.S. is relative to other Americans. Anyone who thinks there is any poverty in the U.S. comparable to other nations has no knowledge of the world.

No, what I said was we do not have poverty like a country like Nicaragua and you stated some place in southern Florida as proof we do. I never said there was "no poverty" in the US but when I think of "dirt poor" with no opportunities to better your financial situation through no fault of your own, then the United States is off that list.

to the first poster- yes there is absolute poverty in the us as compared to poor nations. absolute poverty is the measurement of ppl's ability to survive in their country. what does it matter where it is. if you are not getting 3 meals, don't have a place to live, etc you are poor. all it means in a developed nation is it costs more money to get these things as opposed to others but it is the same condition.

to the other poster- the first post i replied to said otherwise and the place i said was mississippi, the poorest state. but you could try west virginia and kentucky as well. you can ask if they have opportunities to better themselves.

pmerk34
03-15-2012, 12:45 PM
to the first poster- yes there is absolute poverty in the us as compared to poor nations. absolute poverty is the measurement of ppl's ability to survive in their country. what does it matter where it is. if you are not getting 3 meals, don't have a place to live, etc you are poor. all it means in a developed nation is it costs more money to get these things as opposed to others but it is the same condition.

to the other poster- the first post i replied to said otherwise and the place i said was mississippi, the poorest state. but you could try west virginia and kentucky as well. you can ask if they have opportunities to better themselves.

Well that's on them. The opportunities are there. You have to take it. It may include moving to another place if that's where the opportunities are. Half of my classmates no longer live in NY. Obviously this is not 100% the answer. There are of course exceptions: disability for one.

kaleidoskope
03-15-2012, 12:57 PM
Guys I hate to sound cold but much of the poor in the United States is by choice.

Honestly for me its not much of a concern. We are not rich and live very modest. We also dont accept governemnt handouts.

There is just a huge segment of the population in the US that choose to be poor now because its easier than working for a living.

Beg to emphatically disagree.
I was born in a little west African country, lived in a few different countries, seen a few different realities and cultures (including yours) and, from experience, I can't tell you enough how wrong you are...

kaleidoskope
03-15-2012, 12:59 PM
110+ posts in this thread, many of them off-topic and mindlessly ignorant regarding socioeconomic reality, and not one mention of the other Pancho who grew up poor...Pancho Gonzalez.

BTW, if the poster who claims poverty in the US is by choice is still reading this, come take a tour of South Florida with me. I will show you an apartheid that still exists and is perpetuated by a grinding poverty similar to third world reality. East of I-95: wealth beyond imagination; west of I-95: quicksand poverty. Come on down...it'll only take a couple of hours to go from Palm Beach to Belle Glade.

I've never seen that specific reality but I can easily agree with. I've seen it elsewhere, unfortunately...

TERRASTAR18
03-15-2012, 02:15 PM
Well that's on them. The opportunities are there. You have to take it. It may include moving to another place if that's where the opportunities are. Half of my classmates no longer live in NY. Obviously this is not 100% the answer. There are of course exceptions: disability for one.

again with this opportunity business?! bad schools, bad hospitals, no jobs or crappy jobs equals no opportunity. ny is not kentucky the same way beverly hills isn't compton.

kaleidoskope
03-15-2012, 02:18 PM
again with this opportunity business?! bad schools, bad hospitals, no jobs or crappy jobs equals no opportunity. ny is not kentucky the same way beverly hills isn't compton.

Life's pretty simple when you look at it his way. In a way I envy him...

TERRASTAR18
03-15-2012, 02:43 PM
Life's pretty simple when you look at it his way. In a way I envy him...

i know right, but all he needs is one day in their shoes to learn....

OddJack
03-15-2012, 02:51 PM
Rodge,

He supported family working as a ball boy.

Timbo's hopeless slice
03-15-2012, 02:51 PM
No, people like those don't ever learn. They were born on third base and think they have hit a home run..

*edit, go away OddJack, I was pontificating, dammit!

OddJack
03-15-2012, 02:58 PM
Nadal.

He picked empty plastic bottles as a child and sold them for change, until Toni discovered his talent of picking bottles.
(true story from his book) no Toni makes him arrange water bottles in front of him to remember where he came from.

jackson vile
03-15-2012, 03:00 PM
Nadal.

He picked empty plastic bottles as a child and sold them for change, until Toni discovered his talent of picking bottles.
(true story from his book) no Toni makes him arrange water bottles in front of him to remember where he came from.

This guy is a GOAT level troll, however he has a great sense of humor at time LOL

NLBwell
03-15-2012, 09:13 PM
Somehow I think that if, in the United States, there were thousands of babies dying with distended stomachs, bones almost sticking out of the skin, and too weak to keep the flies off of themselves somebody would have noticed.

TERRASTAR18
03-16-2012, 07:46 AM
Somehow I think that if, in the United States, there were thousands of babies dying with distended stomachs, bones almost sticking out of the skin, and too weak to keep the flies off of themselves somebody would have noticed.

that is not the only measure of poverty. but our maternity rate is-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/12/amnesty-us-maternal-mortality-rates

Bhagi Katbamna
03-16-2012, 09:42 AM
Well that's on them. The opportunities are there. You have to take it. It may include moving to another place if that's where the opportunities are. Half of my classmates no longer live in NY. Obviously this is not 100% the answer. There are of course exceptions: disability for one.

One thing that sort of surprised me when I read about it was that many(a majority if I remember correctly) of McDonalds executives worked in a McDonalds restaurant. That is they started at the bottom rung. What's happened in this country is that the work ethic has become extremely diluted. People expect money just for existing. Many small business owner friends tell me that it is difficult to find people that are reliable and actually want to work.
Of course, the last decade this has gotten worse as more and more people hop on the government benefit bandwagon. In the US soon, there will be about 50% of the people that don't pay federal income tax and therefore, will have no problem voting themselves more benefits on the backs of the people that do actually work.

I remember reading that Jose Higueras grew up poor.

SLD76
03-16-2012, 09:47 AM
One thing that sort of surprised me when I read about it was that many(a majority if I remember correctly) of McDonalds executives worked in a McDonalds restaurant. That is they started at the bottom rung. What's happened in this country is that the work ethic has become extremely diluted. People expect money just for existing. Many small business owner friends tell me that it is difficult to find people that are reliable and actually want to work.
Of course, the last decade this has gotten worse as more and more people hop on the government benefit bandwagon. In the US soon, there will be about 50% of the people that don't pay federal income tax and therefore, will have no problem voting themselves more benefits on the backs of the people that do actually work.

I would think just for basic training, some executives put in time actually working at a restaurant? Doubt very much they *all* started as burger flippers.

I think you are speaking out of your backside, respectively.

Yes? No? Maybe?

seattle_1hander
03-16-2012, 09:47 AM
One thing that sort of surprised me when I read about it was that many(a majority if I remember correctly) of McDonalds executives worked in a McDonalds restaurant. That is they started at the bottom rung. What's happened in this country is that the work ethic has become extremely diluted. People expect money just for existing. Many small business owner friends tell me that it is difficult to find people that are reliable and actually want to work.
Of course, the last decade this has gotten worse as more and more people hop on the government benefit bandwagon. In the US soon, there will be about 50% of the people that don't pay federal income tax and therefore, will have no problem voting themselves more benefits on the backs of the people that do actually work.


That particular problem you are alluding to is, in my estimation, the decadence of success. People, as a general rule of thumb, believe they are successful or deserving of a certain standard simply because they live in a successful empire (yes the US is an empire). They don't have to work for themselves, so they think. People anywhere else in the world don't feel this way. However, the feeling is so pervasive (from the government on down) that no one is convincing these people that no, a country's success does not equal YOUR success.

pmerk34
03-16-2012, 09:52 AM
That particular problem you are alluding to is, in my estimation, the decadence of success. People, as a general rule of thumb, believe they are successful or deserving of a certain standard simply because they live in a successful empire (yes the US is an empire). They don't have to work for themselves, so they think. People anywhere else in the world don't feel this way. However, the feeling is so pervasive (from the government on down) that no one is convincing these people that no, a country's success does not equal YOUR success.

Correct, they keep hearing the phrase " How can the richest country on Earth have ____." and they expect because they live in a country with wealth that they should should have wealth and be entitled to "free" services just because they exist.

SLD76
03-16-2012, 09:56 AM
That particular problem you are alluding to is, in my estimation, the decadence of success. People, as a general rule of thumb, believe they are successful or deserving of a certain standard simply because they live in a successful empire (yes the US is an empire). They don't have to work for themselves, so they think. People anywhere else in the world don't feel this way. However, the feeling is so pervasive (from the government on down) that no one is convincing these people that no, a country's success does not equal YOUR success.

Most people I know work very hard...if anything its the people who have the privledge of not needing to work 2-3 jobs just to make ends meet who have the expectation of being paid for living.

Remember the story of Wall St execs being mad about getting smaller bonuses this year than last year?

So instead of making 200k in bonuses, they maybe received 140k.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/bonus_battles_BSxbIOec8IVZhSJeriURzI


However will they get by?

Bhagi Katbamna
03-16-2012, 09:57 AM
I would think just for basic training, some executives put in time actually working at a restaurant? Doubt very much they *all* started as burger flippers.

I think you are speaking out of your backside, respectively.

Yes? No? Maybe?

I never used the word "all". What I was alluding to is the fact that the entitlement mentality that is pervasive in this country means that young people are looked down upon by their peers if they are doing menial(burger-flipping for example) jobs to start their career. People have an expectation that their entry into the job market will be at the middle or top of the ladder.

Bhagi Katbamna
03-16-2012, 10:00 AM
Most people I know work very hard...if anything its the people who have the privledge of not needing to work 2-3 jobs just to make ends meet who have the expectation of being paid for living.

Remember the story of Wall St execs being mad about getting smaller bonuses this year than last year?

So instead of making 200k in bonuses, they maybe received 140k.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/bonus_battles_BSxbIOec8IVZhSJeriURzI


However will they get by?

They deserve whatever bonus they made because they made their company more money. Just like a pro baseball player is worth $10million a year because his presence brings in a lot more money to the team and city.

SLD76
03-16-2012, 10:02 AM
They deserve whatever bonus they made because they made their company more money. Just like a pro baseball player is worth $10million a year because his presence brings in a lot more money to the team and city.


sigh, and that is our problem. our value system is skewed to the point that a grown man playing a sport for a living is more valuable to society than a scientist, or a teacher or a doctor.

pmerk34
03-16-2012, 10:02 AM
Most people I know work very hard...if anything its the people who have the privledge of not needing to work 2-3 jobs just to make ends meet who have the expectation of being paid for living.

Remember the story of Wall St execs being mad about getting smaller bonuses this year than last year?

So instead of making 200k in bonuses, they maybe received 140k.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/bonus_battles_BSxbIOec8IVZhSJeriURzI


However will they get by?

Big deal NO ONE wants a pay cut

SLD76
03-16-2012, 10:03 AM
Big deal NO ONE wants a pay cut

yes, however will they get by.

Bhagi Katbamna
03-16-2012, 10:05 AM
http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2011/08/23/why-mcdonalds-wins-in-any-economy/

If Skinner seems as though he knows his way around a McDonald's kitchen, it is because he once worked in one, as did 40% of the company's executives. (Amazon (AMZN) CEO Jeff Bezos and Top Chef Richard Blais did too.) At age 16 he got a job at McDonald's in Davenport. "I was in a family where, if I wanted to have any spending money, I had to work," says Skinner, whose father was a bricklayer. It was 1962 and employees still peeled, blanched, and sliced potatoes for French fries.

Mr. Skinner is the CEO of McDonalds(did not graduate from college)

I was off, it was 40%.

pmerk34
03-16-2012, 10:05 AM
yes, however will they get by.

That's not the point. People don't like pay cuts in any form

SLD76
03-16-2012, 10:06 AM
That's not the point. People don't like pay cuts in any form

and my point is, people are greedy and entitled.

Bhagi Katbamna
03-16-2012, 10:09 AM
sigh, and that is our problem. our value system is skewed to the point that a grown man playing a sport for a living is more valuable to society than a scientist, or a teacher or a doctor.

Of course they are more valuable(wrt the economy of a city and the team). No team pays their team doctor more than their star player(or even their low end players).

That's why they're getting paid more. There are plenty of scientists, teachers, and doctors but very few people in the world that can hit a 98mph fastball.

Our value system isn't skewed at all, just that you don't agree with it.

SLD76
03-16-2012, 10:10 AM
Of course they are more valuable(wrt the economy of a city and the team). No team pays their team doctor more than their star player(or even their low end players).

That's why they're getting paid more. There are plenty of scientists, teachers, and doctors but very few people in the world that can hit a 98mph fastball.

Our value system isn't skewed at all, just that you don't agree with it.

I cant tell if you are being sarcastic or obtuse.

pmerk34
03-16-2012, 10:12 AM
and my point is, people are greedy and entitled.

People are greedy? No way!!! Do you have a relevant point because you have done nothing but parrot talking points from MSNBC.

SLD76
03-16-2012, 10:14 AM
People are greedy? No way!!! Do you have a relevant point because you have done nothing but parrot talking points from MSNBC.

haha, thanks for trying to label me as an MSNBC watcher

You have anything to add to the discussion besides meager attempts at insults?

Truth hurts?

pmerk34
03-16-2012, 10:15 AM
haha, thanks for trying to label me as an MSNBC watcher

You have anything to add to the discussion besides meager attempts at insults?

Truth hurts?

The truth doesn't hurt people are greedy but have you have made relevant points about any tennis players growing up poor?

Bhagi Katbamna
03-16-2012, 10:17 AM
I cant tell if you are being sarcastic or obtuse.

Neither. I'm just being matter of fact. They are more valuable to the organization that they work for than a teacher or a scientist is to the organization or company that they work for therefore they are being paid more.

And this isn't just about the US, this is true throughout the world.

pmerk34
03-16-2012, 10:20 AM
Neither. I'm just being matter of fact. They are more valuable to the organization that they work for than a teacher or a scientist is to the organization or company that they work for therefore they are being paid more.

And this isn't just about the US, this is true throughout the world.

Don't soccer players in other countries make tremendous amounts as well?

SLD76
03-16-2012, 10:21 AM
Neither. I'm just being matter of fact. They are more valuable to the organization that they work for than a teacher or a scientist is to the organization or company that they work for therefore they are being paid more.

And this isn't just about the US, this is true throughout the world.

fair enough, but I am just saying the fact that entertainment is more valued than things that actually make people's lives better is worrisome.

but what can you do?

pmerk34
03-16-2012, 10:23 AM
fair enough, but I am just saying the fact that entertainment is more valued than things that actually make people's lives better is worrisome.

but what can you do?

Well if you want to make millions upon million learn to sing and dance!

kaleidoskope
03-16-2012, 10:33 AM
They deserve whatever bonus they made because they made their company more money. Just like a pro baseball player is worth $10million a year because his presence brings in a lot more money to the team and city.

So you basically think that the CEOs (and dozens of executives) that got huge bonuses from Government bailout money deserved them? Even after they ran their companies to the ground...
If yes, then ok. We definitely cannot discuss...

kaleidoskope
03-16-2012, 10:34 AM
fair enough, but I am just saying the fact that entertainment is more valued than things that actually make people's lives better is worrisome.

but what can you do?

Well if you want to make millions upon million learn to sing and dance!

Clap, clap, clap, clap, clap :D

Tennishacker
03-16-2012, 10:40 AM
I don't think you would find any Americans in that group, but in other countries, sports is a way for poor kids to get out of poverty.

seattle_1hander
03-16-2012, 11:02 AM
fair enough, but I am just saying the fact that entertainment is more valued than things that actually make people's lives better is worrisome.

but what can you do?

I simply don't understand any of the points your making. It is worrisome that people are so obsessed with Kim Kardashian or LeBron James, and in a way live vicariously through them instead of breaking the chain and fighting for their own happiness. The same people you're talking about are the very same people I'm talking about, brainless dimwits who watch reality TV and feel entitled to government handouts or spending to make the economy better.

Be it quantitative easing or targeted inflationary spending by the Federal Reserve, its all an ultimately ineffective ploy to buoy the economy when what we really need are fundamentals: lower taxes, attracting more entrepreneurs (and yes corporations), who will hire more people. You should be mad at your beloved government for bailing out companies who pay these bonuses...but nooooo...Paul Krugman and Rachel Maddow say government is good.

To borrow from Karl Marx (someone you probably don't find too loathsome), my criticism of your big-goverment dependency isn't meant to pluck the petals from the chain so that you may wear the chain uncomforted, but so that you may break the chain and cull the living flower.

sureshs
03-16-2012, 12:02 PM
Be it quantitative easing or targeted inflationary spending by the Federal Reserve, its all an ultimately ineffective ploy to buoy the economy when what we really need are fundamentals: lower taxes, attracting more entrepreneurs (and yes corporations), who will hire more people. You should be mad at your beloved government for bailing out companies who pay these bonuses...but nooooo...Paul Krugman and Rachel Maddow say government is good.


Those entrepreneurs would not survive without heavy government spending on University and military research, education, and infrastructure, and political/military bullying of countries to buy their products. Every single Internet company owes its origin to the DARPANET project for nuclear preparedness. If you think that an entrepreneur can just have an idea and sell his stuff globally based on the merit of the product, you are very naive.

Low taxes are just a ploy, because those who propose it will spend far more in concocted wars. In the end, people are left poorer, not wealthier, and also wounded and traumatized for life. That is the net contribution of the low tax politicians.

Corporations will not hire more people because taxes are reduced. They will say so, but their next step will be more automation from the profits and more migration of jobs to lower-wage areas. Business does not have a "cap" - if the profitability is 10%, the desire will be to make it 20%, not remain at 10% and "help" others. And every country needs to bailout and protect its major sectors, be it auto, finance or agriculture, in order to save the future. There never was a capitalist country and never will be.

seattle_1hander
03-16-2012, 12:23 PM
Those entrepreneurs would not survive without heavy government spending on University and military research, education, and infrastructure, and political/military bullying of countries to buy their products. Every single Internet company owes its origin to the DARPANET project for nuclear preparedness. If you think that an entrepreneur can just have an idea and sell his stuff globally based on the merit of the product, you are very naive.

Low taxes are just a ploy, because those who propose it will spend far more in concocted wars. In the end, people are left poorer, not wealthier, and also wounded and traumatized for life. That is the net contribution of the low tax politicians.

Corporations will not hire more people because taxes are reduced. They will say so, but their next step will be more automation from the profits and more migration of jobs to lower-wage areas. Business does not have a "cap" - if the profitability is 10%, the desire will be to make it 20%, not remain at 10% and "help" others. And every country needs to bailout and protect its major sectors, be it auto, finance or agriculture, in order to save the future. There never was a capitalist country and never will be.

Oh my goodness. No. Was this post cut and pasted from Obama's website? Granted, the moronic Republican Party is doing nothing to assuage Obama's concerns, but still. Lower taxes, in addition to cutting this Military Industrial Complex down to a sensible size is all necessary.

But all in all, its not enough to simply point out why the Republican Party is wrong. You're still just as wrong. Government needs to be removed from wherever it can be removed. Its easy federal Student Loans? Leading to higher costs of tuition since more kids can pay and a Student Loan bubble of $1 trillion. Its easy government-backed Mortgage Loans? Lead to a housing bubble and the worst financial crisis since the great depression. Government spending is loathsome. Your heart seems to be in the right place but economic illiteracy will hamper your ability to come to truth.

sureshs
03-16-2012, 12:49 PM
Oh my goodness. No. Was this post cut and pasted from Obama's website? Granted, the moronic Republican Party is doing nothing to assuage Obama's concerns, but still. Lower taxes, in addition to cutting this Military Industrial Complex down to a sensible size is all necessary.

But all in all, its not enough to simply point out why the Republican Party is wrong. You're still just as wrong. Government needs to be removed from wherever it can be removed. Its easy federal Student Loans? Leading to higher costs of tuition since more kids can pay and a Student Loan bubble of $1 trillion. Its easy government-backed Mortgage Loans? Lead to a housing bubble and the worst financial crisis since the great depression. Government spending is loathsome. Your heart seems to be in the right place but economic illiteracy will hamper your ability to come to truth.

There is nothing called free trade and capitalism. The US protects its industries with quotas and tariffs, and so does everyone else. "Too big to fail" is not a joke - it is a reality that certain institutions need to be bailed out for the larger good. Every country subsidizes agriculture, which is basically a continuing bailout. Every country spends on its military, and everyone knows how much wastage there is in their own spending. The financial crisis was due to private financial institutions whose executives got huge bonuses for handlig out loans to unworthy people and companies.

Economic theories are armchair exercises which work till they work. Once they don't, they don't. Economics is not a fundamental science - it is just a glorified use of assumed probabilities. What is fundamental is that environmental damage is very difficult to reverse, people need health care, and everyone needs to survive, irrespective of any theory.

pmerk34
03-16-2012, 12:54 PM
There is nothing called free trade and capitalism. The US protects its industries with quotas and tariffs, and so does everyone else. "Too big to fail" is not a joke - it is a reality that certain institutions need to be bailed out for the larger good. Every country subsidizes agriculture, which is basically a continuing bailout. Every country spends on its military, and everyone knows how much wastage there is in their own spending. The financial crisis was due to private financial institutions whose executives got huge bonuses for handlig out loans to unworthy people and companies.

Economic theories are armchair exercises which work till they work. Once they don't, they don't. Economics is not a fundamental science - it is just a glorified use of assumed probabilities. What is fundamental is that environmental damage is very difficult to reverse, people need health care, and everyone needs to survive, irrespective of any theory.

You are correct in your statements but you failed to mention, most likely on purpose, the toxic role the government plays in the housing crash.

TERRASTAR18
03-16-2012, 02:21 PM
One thing that sort of surprised me when I read about it was that many(a majority if I remember correctly) of McDonalds executives worked in a McDonalds restaurant. That is they started at the bottom rung. What's happened in this country is that the work ethic has become extremely diluted. People expect money just for existing. Many small business owner friends tell me that it is difficult to find people that are reliable and actually want to work.
Of course, the last decade this has gotten worse as more and more people hop on the government benefit bandwagon. In the US soon, there will be about 50% of the people that don't pay federal income tax and therefore, will have no problem voting themselves more benefits on the backs of the people that do actually work.

I remember reading that Jose Higueras grew up poor.

have any facts because that just sounds like a nonsensical rant from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about....

TERRASTAR18
03-16-2012, 02:24 PM
I never used the word "all". What I was alluding to is the fact that the entitlement mentality that is pervasive in this country means that young people are looked down upon by their peers if they are doing menial(burger-flipping for example) jobs to start their career. People have an expectation that their entry into the job market will be at the middle or top of the ladder.

menial jobs don't pay anything. and if you have a college education why should you start at the bottom?

TERRASTAR18
03-16-2012, 02:26 PM
That's not the point. People don't like pay cuts in any form

a paycut for a rich person is not the same as a furlough for a middle class person.

TERRASTAR18
03-16-2012, 02:32 PM
I simply don't understand any of the points your making. It is worrisome that people are so obsessed with Kim Kardashian or LeBron James, and in a way live vicariously through them instead of breaking the chain and fighting for their own happiness. The same people you're talking about are the very same people I'm talking about, brainless dimwits who watch reality TV and feel entitled to government handouts or spending to make the economy better.

Be it quantitative easing or targeted inflationary spending by the Federal Reserve, its all an ultimately ineffective ploy to buoy the economy when what we really need are fundamentals: lower taxes, attracting more entrepreneurs (and yes corporations), who will hire more people. You should be mad at your beloved government for bailing out companies who pay these bonuses...but nooooo...Paul Krugman and Rachel Maddow say government is good.

To borrow from Karl Marx (someone you probably don't find too loathsome), my criticism of your big-goverment dependency isn't meant to pluck the petals from the chain so that you may wear the chain uncomforted, but so that you may break the chain and cull the living flower.

do you know the difference between financial capitalism and industrial capitalism?

have you read anything by karl marx or do you just regurgitate right wing talking points. btw adam smith supported government.

sureshs
03-16-2012, 02:32 PM
I never believe most of the hardship stories. For example. McDonald's has a policy that all managers should first rotate in all the roles to understand the business. That is also the case in many factories that people hired into the management cadre have to rotate among the workers first. But it does not mean that the people you see at the counter are the executives.

The other myths are that so-and-so CEO sits in a corner cubicle to be one with the workers, but no, most of the time he is not there because his sensitive meetings have to be conducted in privacy. Another myth is the CEO who travels coach, which is sometimes true, but you forget that he can also fly in his own plane if he wants and probably does.

There are many, many people who went up without paying their dues, and in many cases, these are the people the company wants in senior positions. Ambitious, arrogant, and opinionated. The work-your-way-up lecture is for the Dilberts.

TERRASTAR18
03-16-2012, 02:34 PM
Oh my goodness. No. Was this post cut and pasted from Obama's website? Granted, the moronic Republican Party is doing nothing to assuage Obama's concerns, but still. Lower taxes, in addition to cutting this Military Industrial Complex down to a sensible size is all necessary.

But all in all, its not enough to simply point out why the Republican Party is wrong. You're still just as wrong. Government needs to be removed from wherever it can be removed. Its easy federal Student Loans? Leading to higher costs of tuition since more kids can pay and a Student Loan bubble of $1 trillion. Its easy government-backed Mortgage Loans? Lead to a housing bubble and the worst financial crisis since the great depression. Government spending is loathsome. Your heart seems to be in the right place but economic illiteracy will hamper your ability to come to truth.

i'm guessing you don't have an economics degree....

DoctorBackhand
03-16-2012, 02:41 PM
Can we please get back on topic? This thread was actually interesting before you ruined it with your ranting:evil:

seattle_1hander
03-16-2012, 05:18 PM
i'm guessing you don't have an economics degree....

I'm no right-winger. Far from it. I'm actually a classical liberal. No need to continue on with someone who clearly has no idea what they're talking about.

BACK TO THE POINT. No American knows what it means to truly be "dirt poor," thus no American Tennis Star has been or ever could be dirt poor.

NLBwell
03-16-2012, 10:31 PM
Somehow I think that if, in the United States, there were thousands of babies dying with distended stomachs, bones almost sticking out of the skin, and too weak to keep the flies off of themselves somebody would have noticed.

that is not the only measure of poverty. but our maternity rate is-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/12/amnesty-us-maternal-mortality-rates

As I said, any poverty in the U.S. is relative to others in the U.S. In many countries there is no medical care or statistics for pre-natal care or births for large parts of the country.

An interesting paragraph in your article:
"That context makes the Amnesty report all the more shocking. Death rates among women in pregnancy and labour have doubled in the US from 6.6 per 100,000 in 1987 to 13.3 per 100,000 in 2006.
Although some of the increase is due to better data collection, there is no doubt that deaths have risen while the technology and know-how to prevent them has improved."

Since 1987 there is no question that there are more resources and expenditures for medical care for the poor. There is also a greater effort by government agencies to reach out to the poor and account for them. However, things have gotten worse according to Amnestry International. Assuming that these are not bogus statistics, and that the data collection methods are usable (even the article states that data collection is better and it is usually pretty impossible to truly compare across countries) there is something else here causing these deaths.
Though the radical-left Guardian and AI are using it to bash America (unsurprising), there is likely a real problem here that was not here in 1987. Different behaviors? Different set of immigrants? More teenage pregnacies? More drug-addicted mothers?
More money spent on the poor is obviously not a factor - or perhaps is a negative factor - remember, just getting hospitalized increases your risk of death significantly. Medication errors, infections contracted in the hospital, and as the article states as a possiblity, more C-sections for not very high risk cases, could be causes.

NLBwell
03-16-2012, 10:37 PM
I'm no right-winger. Far from it. I'm actually a classical liberal. No need to continue on with someone who clearly has no idea what they're talking about.

BACK TO THE POINT. No American knows what it means to truly be "dirt poor," thus no American Tennis Star has been or ever could be dirt poor.

Well, no American who is not quite old knows what it means to be "dirt poor."
Not impossible for the U.S. or any other nation to go back to those days.

SLD76
03-17-2012, 01:26 AM
Can we please get back on topic? This thread was actually interesting before you ruined it with your ranting:evil:

yes, it sort of got derailed once people tried to say there really is no poverty in the US...

anyway, the bottom line is, tennis is very expensive and while there have been players who have come from middle class backgrounds to make it in tennis, none have been in dire poverty.

SLD76
03-17-2012, 01:31 AM
I never believe most of the hardship stories. For example. McDonald's has a policy that all managers should first rotate in all the roles to understand the business. That is also the case in many factories that people hired into the management cadre have to rotate among the workers first. But it does not mean that the people you see at the counter are the executives.

The other myths are that so-and-so CEO sits in a corner cubicle to be one with the workers, but no, most of the time he is not there because his sensitive meetings have to be conducted in privacy. Another myth is the CEO who travels coach, which is sometimes true, but you forget that he can also fly in his own plane if he wants and probably does.

There are many, many people who went up without paying their dues, and in many cases, these are the people the company wants in senior positions. Ambitious, arrogant, and opinionated. The work-your-way-up lecture is for the Dilberts.

this.


There is nothing called free trade and capitalism. The US protects its industries with quotas and tariffs, and so does everyone else. "Too big to fail" is not a joke - it is a reality that certain institutions need to be bailed out for the larger good. Every country subsidizes agriculture, which is basically a continuing bailout. Every country spends on its military, and everyone knows how much wastage there is in their own spending. The financial crisis was due to private financial institutions whose executives got huge bonuses for handlig out loans to unworthy people and companies.

Economic theories are armchair exercises which work till they work. Once they don't, they don't. Economics is not a fundamental science - it is just a glorified use of assumed probabilities. What is fundamental is that environmental damage is very difficult to reverse, people need health care, and everyone needs to survive, irrespective of any theory.

and this.




But most especially, this.

How many times before people learn that 'trickle down economics' has never worked?

No man is an island. All these wannabe Ayn Randians need a reality check.

Those entrepreneurs would not survive without heavy government spending on University and military research, education, and infrastructure, and political/military bullying of countries to buy their products. Every single Internet company owes its origin to the DARPANET project for nuclear preparedness. If you think that an entrepreneur can just have an idea and sell his stuff globally based on the merit of the product, you are very naive.

Low taxes are just a ploy, because those who propose it will spend far more in concocted wars. In the end, people are left poorer, not wealthier, and also wounded and traumatized for life. That is the net contribution of the low tax politicians.

Corporations will not hire more people because taxes are reduced. They will say so, but their next step will be more automation from the profits and more migration of jobs to lower-wage areas. Business does not have a "cap" - if the profitability is 10%, the desire will be to make it 20%, not remain at 10% and "help" others. And every country needs to bailout and protect its major sectors, be it auto, finance or agriculture, in order to save the future. There never was a capitalist country and never will be.

Kobble
03-17-2012, 04:51 AM
menial jobs don't pay anything. and if you have a college education why should you start at the bottom?
As someone might put it, to teach those college wussy boys what real work is.

Real work equals = Low pay.

NLBwell
03-17-2012, 09:25 PM
I agree. Though I've had a lot of education, I'm very thankful that I worked some low paying jobs. Too many college educated kids these days never worked blue collar jobs - although there are a good number who have - and don't understand hard work.

nereis
03-17-2012, 10:17 PM
As someone might put it, to teach those college wussy boys what real work is.

Real work equals = Low pay.

In other words, you're arguing that a tertiary education offers no value add and that people who graduate from such an institution (and who's unique selling proposition is their ability to think better than the average joe) should be doing menial work purely because that's what people who couldn't get into university started out at.

It doesn't make any sense to hire a university graduate to do a job any illegal immigrant could do for far less.

TERRASTAR18
03-19-2012, 08:06 AM
I'm no right-winger. Far from it. I'm actually a classical liberal. No need to continue on with someone who clearly has no idea what they're talking about.

BACK TO THE POINT. No American knows what it means to truly be "dirt poor," thus no American Tennis Star has been or ever could be dirt poor.

point 1- you are a classical liberal, but make to express that view in your posts just biased rants against marx. if you knew anything about marx you would know he saw capitalism as a stepping stone on the path to socialism.

point2- again why let facts get in the way of your rant......

TERRASTAR18
03-19-2012, 08:20 AM
As I said, any poverty in the U.S. is relative to others in the U.S. In many countries there is no medical care or statistics for pre-natal care or births for large parts of the country.

An interesting paragraph in your article:
"That context makes the Amnesty report all the more shocking. Death rates among women in pregnancy and labour have doubled in the US from 6.6 per 100,000 in 1987 to 13.3 per 100,000 in 2006.
Although some of the increase is due to better data collection, there is no doubt that deaths have risen while the technology and know-how to prevent them has improved."

Since 1987 there is no question that there are more resources and expenditures for medical care for the poor. There is also a greater effort by government agencies to reach out to the poor and account for them. However, things have gotten worse according to Amnestry International. Assuming that these are not bogus statistics, and that the data collection methods are usable (even the article states that data collection is better and it is usually pretty impossible to truly compare across countries) there is something else here causing these deaths.
Though the radical-left Guardian and AI are using it to bash America (unsurprising), there is likely a real problem here that was not here in 1987. Different behaviors? Different set of immigrants? More teenage pregnacies? More drug-addicted mothers?
More money spent on the poor is obviously not a factor - or perhaps is a negative factor - remember, just getting hospitalized increases your risk of death significantly. Medication errors, infections contracted in the hospital, and as the article states as a possiblity, more C-sections for not very high risk cases, could be causes.

more money doesn't always mean enough money.....your argument doesn't preclude the idea of all of these programs being properly funded.

you second point about hospital mistakes is a direct example of inequalities in service among economic groups. you think those anomalies you mention are more likely in a hospital in a rich area or a poor one?

you, like others in this thread, forget there is a thing called disparity in wealth. cuba has one of the best medical systems in the world, doesn't change the fact cuba is one of the poorest nations in the world. one of the princes' girlfriends is the daughter of a zimbabwe tycoon, does that make up for the fact many ppl there are starving, or mean she share anything similar to them?

TERRASTAR18
03-19-2012, 08:22 AM
As someone might put it, to teach those college wussy boys what real work is.

Real work equals = Low pay.

I agree. Though I've had a lot of education, I'm very thankful that I worked some low paying jobs. Too many college educated kids these days never worked blue collar jobs - although there are a good number who have - and don't understand hard work.

In other words, you're arguing that a tertiary education offers no value add and that people who graduate from such an institution (and who's unique selling proposition is their ability to think better than the average joe) should be doing menial work purely because that's what people who couldn't get into university started out at.

It doesn't make any sense to hire a university graduate to do a job any illegal immigrant could do for far less.

you make good points but let's not bash illegals.

NLBwell
03-20-2012, 09:29 AM
more money doesn't always mean enough money.....your argument doesn't preclude the idea of all of these programs being properly funded.

you second point about hospital mistakes is a direct example of inequalities in service among economic groups. you think those anomalies you mention are more likely in a hospital in a rich area or a poor one?

you, like others in this thread, forget there is a thing called disparity in wealth. cuba has one of the best medical systems in the world, doesn't change the fact cuba is one of the poorest nations in the world. one of the princes' girlfriends is the daughter of a zimbabwe tycoon, does that make up for the fact many ppl there are starving, or mean she share anything similar to them?

Your first point is true about any government program. One reason private charities work so much better and are more successful than government programs. Remember, many hospitals are private charities.

Actually, yes, studies have shown that death rates from hospitalization (where the original cause would not have caused death) are not related or actually are correlated to hospitals in higher income areas. These causes are poor managment and procedures - which are not related to the income of the patients - and just the fact that those in more affluent areas are more likely to do more procedures not absoutely necessary which can increase the number of complications (possibly more fear of being sued if they can't show they did to rule out any possiblitiy). It is something to look at if more medical care being provided these days is causing higher death rates.

Cuba's good medical system is a myth (like the Soviet Union not having breadlines). Ordinary citizens don't get the facilities they show to outsiders. It is better than other impoverished Caribbean nations, but nowhere near the level of first-world countries. Remember, Cuba was financed mostly by the Soviet Union, since then payments have been scarcer, but they still get assistance from Russia, Venezuela has been sending them a lot of money, and China is getting interested. They should have more wealth (and therefore health) than other Caribbean nations.

PeteD
09-04-2012, 02:14 PM
Jimmy Connors was from the wrong side of the tracks

BeHappy
09-04-2012, 02:27 PM
Arthur Ashe.

Mustard
09-04-2012, 02:55 PM
Cuba's good medical system is a myth.

No. It is not a myth.