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Paul Murphy
03-12-2012, 12:30 AM
Michael Llodra was fined $US2,500 ($A2,300) for using a racial slur during his opening-round match against Ernests Gulbis at the ATP Tour's Indian Wells tournament, officials said on Sunday.
The French player yelled at a Chinese female supporter of Gulbis during his 6-3 5-7 7-6 (7-3) win over the Latvian on Friday.
The incident was witnessed by Canadian journalist Tom Tebbutt who wrote about it on his social networking Twitter site.
``Sat very first row -- dead centre behind the court for Llodra-Gulbis -- heard a lot. Deplorable behaviour by Llodra -- read next tweet.
``ML smacked ball out of court, threw racquet, called female Gulbis supporter in crowd a '(bleep)ing Chinese.' I confirmed later with brother of woman.''
Officials said Llodra was also verbally abusive towards the ballboys and their coordinator during the match. Besides the fine, Llodra had to apologise for his actions.

AAP.

Big_Dangerous
03-12-2012, 01:08 AM
Michael Llodra was fined $US2,500 ($A2,300) for using a racial slur during his opening-round match against Ernests Gulbis at the ATP Tour's Indian Wells tournament, officials said on Sunday.
The French player yelled at a Chinese female supporter of Gulbis during his 6-3 5-7 7-6 (7-3) win over the Latvian on Friday.
The incident was witnessed by Canadian journalist Tom Tebbutt who wrote about it on his social networking Twitter site.
``Sat very first row -- dead centre behind the court for Llodra-Gulbis -- heard a lot. Deplorable behaviour by Llodra -- read next tweet.
``ML smacked ball out of court, threw racquet, called female Gulbis supporter in crowd a '(bleep)ing Chinese.' I confirmed later with brother of woman.''
Officials said Llodra was also verbally abusive towards the ballboys and their coordinator during the match. Besides the fine, Llodra had to apologise for his actions.

AAP.

Well in that case, I'm glad he was forced to retire today.

I hope he never wins another match in his career.


But seriously, that does sound pretty bad. Hopefully he doesn't pull a Koellerer and start provoke players with racial slurs and epithets. Pretty deplorable behavior considering he's fair good friends with guys like Monfils and Tsonga.

phnx90
03-12-2012, 03:29 AM
Someone tell me how this is racist?

nadalwon2012
03-12-2012, 03:33 AM
Racist because he is against Chinese people I guess.

Torres
03-12-2012, 03:36 AM
Someone tell me how this is racist?

It's racist because he associates the behaviour which he dislikes with a racial group, which is pretty ignorant and silly. It's the individual and her behaviour which he should be taking a disliking to not the racial group to which she belongs.

It would be like if a guy crashes into my car. I would never say "Damn blacks" or even think it because its the not the race that has anything to do him crashing into my car.

Cormorant
03-12-2012, 03:45 AM
Frakkin serve and volleyers, they're all the same.

Big_Dangerous
03-12-2012, 04:18 AM
Someone tell me how this is racist?

Because he's calling her Chinese, but he doesn't know for a fact that she actually is Chinese.

It's like calling someone a Mexican, when they could be from any number of Latin American countries, or even Spain.

FlamEnemY
03-12-2012, 05:25 AM
Someone tell me how this is racist?

She looks Chinese and he called her Chinese.

It's racist.

I guess.

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 05:39 AM
They should have just fined him for abuse as its too difficult to get into an issue like racial abuse unless you have a proper hearing, etc., where wider issues can be canvassed and that would be a ridiculous waste of time and money.

By itself, referring to someone's presumed ethnicity when insulting them is not necessarily racist, especially when you're dealing with people who don't belong to groups having some historically grounded animosity.

li0scc0
03-12-2012, 05:41 AM
wow, I didn't realise saying what country somebody was from was racist!
I will have to remember that the next time I have a conference call with our office with my French counterparts. Darn it, I just did it.
Brave New World.

FlamEnemY
03-12-2012, 05:43 AM
wow, I didn't realise saying what country somebody was from was racist!
I will have to remember that the next time I have a conference call with our office with my French counterparts. Darn it, I just did it.
Brave New World.

Also, be sure to never order black coffee.

Bobby Jr
03-12-2012, 06:05 AM
Is it really racist? ...
...

...I find half the people on this board f*cking americans. ...
Because "Chinese" has clear and obvious ethnic connotations (Asian) whereas "Americans"does not.

Bobby Jr
03-12-2012, 06:07 AM
It's like calling someone a Mexican, when they could be from any number of Latin American countries, or even Spain.
Sombreros can be a bit misleading sometimes I agree. :lol:

batz
03-12-2012, 06:08 AM
Murdering someone because of the colour of their skin is one end of the spectrum of racism and attempting to verbally abuse someone via their race is at the other end of the spectrum of racism - but they're both racism.

batz
03-12-2012, 06:11 AM
Because "Chinese" has clear and obvious ethnic connotations (Asian) whereas "Americans"does not.

Ethnicity and race are not the same thing. For example; it is perfectly feasible to be of Scottish ethnicity and be black. 'American' is a perfectly valid ethnicity.

wrxinsc
03-12-2012, 06:11 AM
Sombreros can be a bit misleading sometimes I agree. :lol:
that's racis.

phnx90
03-12-2012, 06:12 AM
It's racist because he associates the behaviour which he dislikes with a racial group, which is pretty ignorant and silly. It's the individual and her behaviour which he should be taking a disliking to not the racial group to which she belongs.

It would be like if a guy crashes into my car. I would never say "Damn blacks" or even think it because its the not the race that has anything to do him crashing into my car.

Because he's calling her Chinese, but he doesn't know for a fact that she actually is Chinese.

It's like calling someone a Mexican, when they could be from any number of Latin American countries, or even Spain.

Racism is basically hating on a race based on poor or no justifications (e.g. stereotypes).

If the woman took offence at being labelled a Chinese when she was not, wouldn't that make her the racist? What's wrong with being Chinese?

She looks Chinese and he called her Chinese.

It's racist.

I guess.

There are probably in excess of 2 billion Chinese people in the world, including those living overseas and those living in Special Administrative Regions (SAR) like Hong Kong and Macau. Chances of assuming an Asian to be Chinese and getting it right is very high. In fact, you could even say Llodra's unlucky that the woman wasn't Chinese (unless it's one of those people who are ethnically Chinese and think they are Canadian, having lived there for a grand total of about 4 years; I hate those people).

Merely adding the word "****ing" before "Chinese" doesn't make the overall sentence/statement racist. The word is used as an emphasis and nothing more.

Besides, it's not like he could've stopped to ask her name, age, sex (because you know, you could offend transvestites, transsexuals and hermaphrodites who possess most or all the characteristics of a woman, but are not, applying the same logic), nationality, ethnicity and sexual orientation, before mouthing her off on (inter)national TV, right?

jmverdugo
03-12-2012, 06:18 AM
I think it is not racist, incredible stupid yes, but not racist.

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 06:19 AM
He added a word before Chinese and a word referring to the female genitalia after that word.

So he could be equally accused of gender hatred as well as race hatred but of course hardly a mention of the full insult anywhere.

li0scc0
03-12-2012, 06:37 AM
He added a word before Chinese and a word referring to the female genitalia after that word.

So he could be equally accused of gender hatred as well as race hatred but of course hardly a mention of the full insult anywhere.

Of course all of this diminishes the fact that he insulted, not a GROUP of people, but an INDIVIDUAL.

He wasn't being anti-women or anti-Chinese, but rather was insulting to a specific individual.

He should be fined. Not to the extent that Serena Williams was fined, of course, as he did not threaten to kill anybody. But he should be fined, as he insulted an individual.

phnx90
03-12-2012, 06:39 AM
He added a word before Chinese and a word referring to the female genitalia after that word.

So he could be equally accused of gender hatred as well as race hatred but of course hardly a mention of the full insult anywhere.

If the word is "c_nt", then that isn't enough to qualify as misogyny.

Seriously, people are getting way too PC for their own good.

Tammo
03-12-2012, 06:43 AM
Other people say stuff much worse than that every day. Llodra was just frustrated and wasn't thinking right because he was playing a match.

aphex
03-12-2012, 06:44 AM
Wasn't the nadal clan equally racist against the French?
Why didn't they get fined?

Bobby Jr
03-12-2012, 06:51 AM
Ethnicity and race are not the same thing. For example; it is perfectly feasible to be of Scottish ethnicity and be black. 'American' is a perfectly valid ethnicity.
It's quite obvious that I know that given the post of mine you quoted.

So you don't have to scroll back up I said: "Because "Chinese" has clear and obvious ethnic connotations (Asian)..." - which it does. Chinese people are ethnically Asian - currently and historically. It doesn't mean every single Chinese person is of Asian ethnicity - but they're pretty close.

"... whereas "Americans"does not." - 'American' isn't a race, it is merely a reference to a location (USA) where there is no one clear ethnic group which dominates as is the case in China. It's multi-ethnic.

The only people who could say, in normal terms, with any general understanding and use of the term to be ethnically American are American Indians. "White" Americans are predominantly anglo-saxon in their ethnicity. This group is even called Anglo-American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-America) and you can tell their broad ethnic origins by the fact they speak English, have English lineage and English cultural histories going back only a relatively short period in historical terms. Most other ethnicities in America of course also speak English, but for different reasons - they were forced to or had to in order to integrate.

phnx90
03-12-2012, 06:53 AM
Wasn't the nadal clan equally racist against the French?
Why didn't they get fined?

Because the French love Rafa.

aphex
03-12-2012, 06:56 AM
Because the French love Rafa.

Yeah...the nadal is lucky that the great French people are so forgiving and gracious.

Imagine how the Spaniards would react if subjected to the same, despicable ethnic slurs...

magnut
03-12-2012, 07:03 AM
Its racist because it refers to culture and people are not allowed to be refered to as cultural anymore unless they are a minority.

Example....An african American can refer to another African American as Black (or even the N word) or a Caucasion as whitey (Honkey in the old days) but a white cannot say anything that pertains to a cultural label. Instead that white person is to address all minorities as sir or mam.

I dont make the rules. Its just the way it is. Its a political based model based around making everyone hate each other.

I say ban that racist frenchy for life!

phnx90
03-12-2012, 07:06 AM
Yeah...the nadal is lucky that the great French people are so forgiving and gracious.

Imagine how the Spaniards would react if subjected to the same, despicable ethnic slurs...

Looks like we'll just have to wait it out until a player is hated collectively by a Spanish audience first.

magnut
03-12-2012, 07:11 AM
Looks like we'll just have to wait it out until a player is hated collectively by a Spanish audience first.

Nadal gets away with it because he is kind of a special needs case. Its pretty hard to label someone a racist when they have a mental disorder like Rafa. Nadal has learned to take his handicap though and turn it into a strength.

joechiang
03-12-2012, 07:26 AM
Woww,this thread is epic for me.
Just clarify two things:
1.the girl is a Korean American,has nothing to do with Chinese.
2.Maybe Llodra was only insulting one person,but translating it directly into Chinese is not like that.Maybe it's only different language habits problem.
As Llodra also said"putain foutu chatte chinois"to the girl,and his so-called apology is really impressive,I learn a lot from the civilized world people.

aphex
03-12-2012, 07:34 AM
I don't think he was as racist as the Spanish national basketball team.

http://www.bleepingidiots.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/spain-basketball-cp-584-532.jpg

DjokovicForTheWin
03-12-2012, 07:39 AM
It was obviously racist. I mean what's the point in him stating her race? or ethnicity or whatever? If you're angry at someone you call them a jerk. And you get your value out of the word jerk to express your feeling toward them. But then if you say 'black jerk', well what's the point of that? What additional value is there in adding the 'black' descriptor, other than racism? so I think he was quite obviously racist.

The bigger question is, is this wrong? Are people not allowed to be racist? Are neoNazis not allowed to play professional tennis?

magnut
03-12-2012, 07:43 AM
Woww,this thread is epic for me.
Just clarify two things:
1.the girl is a Korean American,has nothing to do with Chinese.
2.Maybe Llodra was only insulting one person,but translating it directly into Chinese is not like that.Maybe it's only different language habits problem.
As Llodra also said"putain foutu chatte chinois"to the girl,and his so-called apology is really impressive,I learn a lot from the civilized world people.

I will see your clarification and raise you.....

That only actually matters if your Asian. For everyone else all Asian are considered Chinese.

Its like when New Zealand Kiwis get bent out of shape when people call them Ausies. The rest of the world does not really give a rip.

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 07:45 AM
My guess is that he was focussed on an individual, but it is interesting that attitudes to women barely registered as compared to the race angle.



Of course all of this diminishes the fact that he insulted, not a GROUP of people, but an INDIVIDUAL.

He wasn't being anti-women or anti-Chinese, but rather was insulting to a specific individual.

He should be fined. Not to the extent that Serena Williams was fined, of course, as he did not threaten to kill anybody. But he should be fined, as he insulted an individual.

magnut
03-12-2012, 07:46 AM
It was obviously racist. I mean what's the point in him stating her race? or ethnicity or whatever? If you're angry at someone you call them a jerk. And you get your value out of the word jerk to express your feeling toward them. But then if you say 'black jerk', well what's the point of that? What additional value is there in adding the 'black' descriptor, other than racism? so I think he was quite obviously racist.

The bigger question is, is this wrong? Are people not allowed to be racist? Are neoNazis not allowed to play professional tennis?

Right he should have just said...."that woman". Then we could say he is shovenist pig instead of racist. Better yet.... call her a skinny or fat woman. Then we could say he is discrimatory towards fat or thin people.

Ah, it just never ends does it.

joechiang
03-12-2012, 07:49 AM
I will see your clarification and raise you.....

That only actually matters if your Asian. For everyone else all Asian are considered Chinese.

Its like when New Zealand Kiwis get bent out of shape when people call them Ausies. The rest of the world does not really give a rip.
I learn a new thing.That's sweet.

phnx90
03-12-2012, 07:50 AM
Nadal gets away with it because he is kind of a special needs case. Its pretty hard to label someone a racist when they have a mental disorder like Rafa. Nadal has learned to take his handicap though and turn it into a strength.
Yeah, see now that's just downright insulting.

It was obviously racist. I mean what's the point in him stating her race? or ethnicity or whatever? If you're angry at someone you call them a jerk. And you get your value out of the word jerk to express your feeling toward them. But then if you say 'black jerk', well what's the point of that? What additional value is there in adding the 'black' descriptor, other than racism? so I think he was quite obviously racist.

The bigger question is, is this wrong? Are people not allowed to be racist? Are neoNazis not allowed to play professional tennis?

For most people, "jerk" does not suffice when they're properly ****ed-off. Words like "f_cking" tend to be the go-to word, but that in itself is an emphasis, so does not mean anything. Plus, it was directed at someone, so he would've instinctively looked for a word to describe the person. She was female and Asian, so the choices would've probably been either "chienne" or "chinois". Regardless of which he chose, he'd have been labelled a hater of one form or another.

Should racist people be allowed to play tennis? Of course, because then we ought to practice what we preach. Can't exclude people on their beliefs, unfounded or otherwise, just the same way we shouldn't make judgments on other people on their colour, unfounded or otherwise.

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 07:53 AM
China is also multi-ethnic, and race is not really a useful term.

The fact is that referring to any ethnic or national group in a derogatory manner could be regarded as racist in popular terms.

If you take what Llodra said and substituted American for Chinese it could be construed as racist.



It's quite obvious that I know that given the post of mine you quoted.

So you don't have to scroll back up I said: "Because "Chinese" has clear and obvious ethnic connotations (Asian)..." - which it does. Chinese people are ethnically Asian - currently and historically. It doesn't mean every single Chinese person is of Asian ethnicity - but they're pretty close.

"... whereas "Americans"does not." - 'American' isn't a race, it is merely a reference to a location (USA) where there is no one clear ethnic group which dominates as is the case in China. It's multi-ethnic.

The only people who could say, in normal terms, with any general understanding and use of the term to be ethnically American are American Indians. "White" Americans are predominantly anglo-saxon in their ethnicity. This group is even called Anglo-American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-America) and you can tell their broad ethnic origins by the fact they speak English, have English lineage and English cultural histories going back only a relatively short period in historical terms. Most other ethnicities in America of course also speak English, but for different reasons - they were forced to or had to in order to integrate.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-12-2012, 07:55 AM
Yeah, see now that's just downright insulting.
For most people, "jerk" does not suffice when they're properly ****ed-off. Words like "f_cking" tend to be the go-to word, but that in itself is an emphasis, so does not mean anything. Plus, it was directed at someone, so he would've instinctively looked for a word to describe the person. She was female and Asian, so the choices would've probably been either "chienne" or "chinois". Regardless of which he chose, he'd have been labelled a hater of one form or another.


'Jerk' was just an example. Could have been 'Effing Jerk' or stupid F jerk, etc, etc Doesn't matter. You are angry at them and the words you choose should stand for what you feel. There is no value in pointing out she is chinese from a purely anger standpoint. So what if she was female and Asian? What's the point in pointing it out??????? The only reason is if he were racist towards chinese. What does he gain by saying she is chinese? All he needs to do is look at her and call her 'stupid' or 'biche' or whatever. Why chinese?


Should racist people be allowed to play tennis? Of course, because then we ought to practice what we preach. Can't exclude people on their beliefs, unfounded or otherwise, just the same way we shouldn't make judgments on other people on their colour, unfounded or otherwise.

Then he shouldn't have been fined for being racist, which he clearly was.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-12-2012, 07:59 AM
In China if a chinese person said "damn american", that would be racist there. Here it's the reverse.

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 08:02 AM
If someone is bald and is sitting among people who have hair, I bet references to hairlessness is going to figure prominently in your insults if you think they warrant it, but does that mean you really have a thing about bald people?

This is the way of the world, but despite that ...

The fact is that his behaviour was impolite and borish and completely inappropriate anywhere in public, let alone a tennis court.



'Jerk' was just an example. Could have been 'Effing Jerk' or stupid F jerk, etc, etc Doesn't matter. You are angry at them and the words you choose should stand for what you feel. There is no value in pointing out she is chinese for a purely anger standpoint. So what if she was female and Asian, what's the point in pointing it out??????? The only reason is if he were racist towards chinese. What does he gain by saying she is chinese? All he needs to do is look at her and call her 'stupid' or 'biche' or whatever. Why chinese?



Then he shouldn't have been fined for being racist, which he clearly was.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-12-2012, 08:03 AM
If someone is bald and is sitting among people who have hair, I bet references to hairlessness is going to figure prominently in your insults if you think they warrant it, but does that mean you really have a thing about bald people?

This is the way of the world, but despite that ...

The fact is that his behaviour was impolite and borish and completely inappropriate anywhere in public, let alone a tennis court.

Yes! Indeed you do. But baldness is certainly not the same thing as race. Big difference. Impolite is calling someone stupid or jerk. Adding chinese to that makes it racist.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-12-2012, 08:07 AM
So if Llodra was playing in Israel and he said to someone in the crowd, damn Jew, that wouldn't be racist huh? LOL. Let's see how well that goes over with the Mossad :)

magnut
03-12-2012, 08:08 AM
We really need to get past this racism stuff and just start fining people for having opinions that we dont agree with.

Personally i think he should be fined just for being French reguardless of anything he says. The same goes for every other French player. Except Gasquet of course. He gets a pass because his off court training consists of hard work and making out with cocain snorting strippers. For this Richard can say whatever he wants.

phnx90
03-12-2012, 08:09 AM
'Jerk' was just an example. Could have been 'Effing Jerk' or stupid F jerk, etc, etc Doesn't matter. You are angry at them and the words you choose should stand for what you feel. There is no value in pointing out she is chinese from a purely anger standpoint. So what if she was female and Asian? What's the point in pointing it out??????? The only reason is if he were racist towards chinese. What does he gain by saying she is chinese? All he needs to do is look at her and call her 'stupid' or 'biche' or whatever. Why chinese?

Then he shouldn't have been fined for being racist, which he clearly was.

I'm no native French speaker, so I can't think of words that are used like the word "jerk", which is more commonly used for men rather than women in English.

There is no point in pointing her race out of course, beyond the fact that it was his observation. She's Asian, so he thought she was Chinese. Then again, so would've anybody else. Calling her "chienne" (b_tch in French, IIRC) would've ostensibly made him a misogynist (and I wouldn't have thought so).

People forget that in the heat of the moment, we don't have the luxury of deliberated reasoning before we choose our expletives. If we had the luxury of rationalising our words, we'd have not said anything at all. Therefore pointing out the value or lack thereof of pointing out her race is irrelevant. We just use the words we use most often and try link it with the subject of our anger, and, in this case, since Llodra knew nothing about the woman besides her sex and race, it would've only been natural to use one or the other, or both. He chose race (and got it wrong).

He'd have been fined for being racist even if it were obvious to everybody that he wasn't, simply because it'd have been bad for PR to let an incident like that slide. Even more so the case because Llodra is white and male, and people love to accuse white men of racism. Hell, it's supposedly common practice for guilty "coloured" suspects to accuse policemen of racism when they get arrested.

Then he shouldn't have been fined for being racist, which he clearly was.
Not the same. We can't penalise people for things they haven't done yet. We can however, penalise them for what they have done, in much the same way that we can't deprive potential criminals of the ability of being a part of society by locking them up in prison before they have actually committed a crime.

jmverdugo
03-12-2012, 08:10 AM
Yes! Indeed you do. But baldness is certainly not the same thing as race. Big difference. Impolite is calling someone stupid or jerk. Adding chinese to that makes it racist.

why? in this case he used the term Chinese to distinct her, that was the first thing that came to his mind, he is not saying that being chinese is a bad thing (I have the feeling that you guys really think that being called chinese is a bad thing!). He could have gone with other thing but I guess that saying ----ing woman with slanted eyes, black hair and red shirt was too specific?!

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 08:11 AM
Adding Chinese doesn't make it racist, it merely adds a reference to 'Chinese-ness', to use a made-up word.

If you look at what he said all the derogatory references referred to 'woman-ness', to use another made-up word.

All three references are sexual. In fact, if you did substitute jerk for Chinese the meaning of the insults would not change.

All his derogatory utterances are about women, not Chinese women, just women. And that one woman he thought was Chinese, wrongly.



Yes! Indeed you do. But baldness is certainly not the same thing as race. Big difference. Impolite is calling someone stupid or jerk. Adding chinese to that makes it racist.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-12-2012, 08:12 AM
I'm no native French speaker, so I can't think of words that are used like the word "jerk", which is more commonly used for men rather than women in English.

There is no point in pointing her race out of course, beyond the fact that it was his observation. She's Asian, so he thought she was Chinese. Then again, so would've anybody else. Calling her "chienne" (b_tch in French, IIRC) would've ostensibly made him a misogynist (and I wouldn't have thought so). People forget that in the heat of the moment, we don't have the luxury of deliberated reasoning before we choose our expletives. We just use the words we use most often and try link it with the subject of our anger, and, in this case, since Llodra knew nothing about the woman besides her sex and race, it would've only been natural to use one or the other, or both. He chose race (and got it wrong).

He'd have been fined for being racist even if it were obvious to everybody that he wasn't, simply because it'd have been bad for PR to let an incident like that slide. Even more so the case because Llodra is white and male, and people love to accuse white men of racism. Hell, it's supposedly common practice for guilty "coloured" suspects to accuse policemen of racism when they get arrested.

Fine so he keeps the observation in his mind, what's the point in explicitly saying she is chinese??????? What does he get out of it????? People wouldn't say oh look there walks a man on the street with shoes on. There is no point in saying he is wearing shoes out of the blue. And there was nothing Llodra could gain from making the out loud observation that she was chinese, unless it was racially motivated.

Even if Monfils said it, it would have been racist.

magnut
03-12-2012, 08:12 AM
So if Llodra was playing in Israel and he said to someone in the crowd, damn Jew, that wouldn't be racist huh? LOL. Let's see how well that goes over with the Mossad :)

Depends....Is the guy in the crowd Jewish?

Does Lodra have some secret ties with the Nazis? If he does we could be talking hate crime and Mike may deserve some time in prison.

What fantasy world do you live in where French people are polite towards other cultures? Lodra is actually known for being a pretty nice guy on the tour. Last I heard he wasnt killing puppies and raping women in his spare time.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-12-2012, 08:13 AM
Adding Chinese doesn't make it racist, it merely adds a reference to 'Chinese-ness', to use a made-up word.

If you look at what he said all the derogatory references referred to 'woman-ness', to use another made-up word.

All three references are sexual. In fact, if you did substitute jerk for Chinese the meaning of the insults would not change.

All his derogatory utterances are about women, not Chinese women, just women. And that one woman he thought was Chinese, wrongly.

What's the point in adding the chinese reference???? :) What does he gain from it?

DjokovicForTheWin
03-12-2012, 08:14 AM
Depends....Is the guy in the crowd Jewish?

Does Lodra have some secret ties with the Nazis? If he does we could be talking hate crime and Mike may deserve some time in prison.

What fantasy world do you live in where French people are polite towards other cultures? Lodra is actually known for being a pretty nice guy on the tour. Last I heard he wasnt killing puppies and raping women in his spare time.

Well it is being played in Israel, so most likely he is Jewish, but it's irrelevant as long as he believed the guy was Jewish. I'm not saying anything about French people, I'm talking about Llodra.

phnx90
03-12-2012, 08:19 AM
Fine so he keeps the observation in his mind, what's the point in explicitly saying she is chinese??????? What does he get out of it????? People wouldn't say oh look there walks a man on the street with shoes on. There is no point in saying he is wearing shoes out of the blue. And there was nothing Llodra could gain from making the out loud observation that she was chinese, unless it was racially motivated.

Even if Monfils said it, it would have been racist.

Edited my post, but looks like you didn't see it yet, so here:

People forget that in the heat of the moment, we don't have the luxury of deliberated reasoning before we choose our expletives. If we had the luxury of rationalising our words, we'd have not said anything at all. Therefore pointing out the value or lack thereof of pointing out her race is irrelevant. We just use the words we use most often and try link it with the subject of our anger, and, in this case, since Llodra knew nothing about the woman besides her sex and race to distinguish her, it would've only been natural to use one or the other, or both. He chose race (and got it wrong).

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 08:19 AM
People focus on difference to define each other.

According to a previous post, this is what he said:

"putain foutu chatte chinois"

All the first three adjectives are misogynistic insults that men the world over use against women.

And if he wanted to use Chinese specific insults there's a multitude he could have chosen, but he did not.



What's the point in adding the chinese reference???? :) What does he gain from it?

DjokovicForTheWin
03-12-2012, 08:20 AM
Edited my post, but looks like you didn't see it yet, so here:

People forget that in the heat of the moment, we don't have the luxury of deliberated reasoning before we choose our expletives. If we had the luxury of rationalising our words, we'd have not said anything at all. Therefore pointing out the value or lack thereof of pointing out her race is irrelevant. We just use the words we use most often and try link it with the subject of our anger, and, in this case, since Llodra knew nothing about the woman besides her sex and race to distinguish her, it would've only been natural to use one or the other, or both. He chose race (and got it wrong).

That actually makes it even worse. It means it's part of his instinct. It's built into his brainstem and the racism is deep within him that even if he tries to reason his way out of it, he will never realize it. It's ingrained in his being. Scary.

p.s. I am certainly not trying to be self-righteous here. I may be no better than him and perhaps have done the same. Wouldn't change that I was racist.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-12-2012, 08:22 AM
People focus on difference to define each other.

According to a previous post, this is what he said:

"putain foutu chatte chinois"

All the first three adjectives are misogynistic insults that men the world over use against women.

And if he wanted to use Chinese specific insults there's a multitude he could have chosen, but he did not.

LOL, you're a joke dude. He's angry at her and at that moment he's focusing on the differences she is relative to others because he want to write an essay on Chineseness to use your word? :) LOL. Get a clue. There was no reason for him to say chinese especially in that context. What if he had shouted so the entire stadium could hear and he said to her "BE QUIET YOU CHINESE" looking directly at her. How would that go over?

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 08:28 AM
So you make up your own words, put them in LLodra's mouth and try to justify your stupid argument that way!

You don't even understand the French words quoted, do you?, because you don't know French.

If you don't know what he said in his native French than you're not entitled to have any point of view.



LOL, you're a joke dude. He's angry at her and at that moment he's focusing on the differences she is relative to others because he want to write an essay on Chineseness to use your word? :) LOL. Get a clue. There was no reason for him to say chinese especially in that context. What if he had shouted so the entire stadium could hear and he said to her "BE QUIET YOU CHINESE" looking directly at her. How would that go over?

magnut
03-12-2012, 08:29 AM
Well it is being played in Israel, so most likely he is Jewish, but it's irrelevant as long as he believed the guy was Jewish. I'm not saying anything about French people, I'm talking about Llodra.

You are absolutely right. People of different cultures and different ethnicities should all be made to act the same. Otherwise we as "the good guys" can place labels on them like racist etc. That way we all keep our cultural differences, get along with each other, and allow each other to think and act differently.

Ya see how this works?

Or maybe we should just ignore people if they are rude or different and leave each other alone if we dont like them.

Do you honeslty think he should be fined money for calling someone chinese when he didnt understand she was Korean. So Lodra is rude and ignorant. Big deal, its not illegal to be rude or ignorant. If I call an Asian ....Chinese when they are Japanese should I be fined?

Sheesh. Maybe Lodra and this Asian chick should get married. They already have the lingo and banter down pat.

phnx90
03-12-2012, 08:29 AM
That actually makes it even worse. It means it's part of his instinct. It's built into his brainstem and the racism is deep within him that even if he tries to reason his way out of it, he will never realize it. It's ingrained in his being. Scary.

Look, I'll explain it as simply as possible, because you seem rather intent on making Llodra look like a diehard, pillowcase-wearing racist. If I told you that Llodra isn't actually Nadal, despite also being a lefty, would that help? :P

Anyway:

Llodra doesn't know the girl's name
All he knows is that the person is FEMALE and that she's ASIAN
Most Asian people are assumed to be Chinese (partly because there are more of them than any other Asians, or anybody else for that matter)
Since he can't call her out by name, he would've needed something else to describe her. Only her nationality distinguished her, so he chose nationality.

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 08:35 AM
Yes, its hard not to see the use of the word 'Chinese' as simply a means of identifying that person in a crowd.

And he hasn't used a phrase like 'damn Chinese", nor used the usual derogatory synonyms for Chinese nor the usual descriptors of Chinese people used by racists.

All his insults are directed at her femaleness.

But I don't have the definitive text of what he actually said in French.

Cormorant
03-12-2012, 08:36 AM
I'm reminded of the Troicki-Ferrero match this year down under, during which Viktor had a fan chucked out for shouting: "Hey Troicki, how do you say choke in Serbian?" A lot of people claimed that guy was a racist, but I'm not sure if Viktor gave any reason for complaining other than that the guy was being annoying. The incident's on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDJOgQ19dJU

ark_28
03-12-2012, 08:37 AM
It may or may not be racist but it's stupid and he should not just have been fined he should be banned!

Whether the girl is Chinese or not is not the issue, he has stereotyped her and made a judgement on her because of her accent she may well be Chinese but she could also be Korean or Japanese etc and proud of her root Llodra has no right bringing where she is from!

Would he like it is a fan shouted to him "f**king Belgians" or f**king Swiss" ??

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 08:39 AM
nonsense - Youre just making stuff up.

You have to look at what he actually said in French.

And judge him on that alone.



It may or may not be racist but it's stupid and he should not just have been fined he should be banned!

Whether the girl is Chinese or not is not the issue, he has stereotyped her and made a judgement on her because of her accent she may well be Chinese but she could also be Korean or Japanese etc and proud of her root Llodra has no right bringing where she is from!

Would he like it is a fan shouted to him "f**king Belgians" or f**king Swiss" ??

tennis_pro
03-12-2012, 08:40 AM
How dare you fine Llodra, one of the last remaining s-v players out there!

darrinbaker00
03-12-2012, 08:41 AM
None of us can say for sure if what Mr. Llodra said was racist, because none of us were there. Simply reading a transcript will not give us the whole story, because none of us heard the the tone of his voice or saw the expression on his face when he said it. Was it bad? Of course. Should Mr. Llodra have been fined for it? Of course. Was it racist? I don't know, and neither do any of you.

phnx90
03-12-2012, 08:42 AM
It may or may not be racist but it's stupid and he should not just have been fined he should be banned!
Agree

Whether the girl is Chinese or not is not the issue, he has stereotyped her and made a judgement on her because of her accent she may well be Chinese but she could also be Korean or Japanese etc and proud of her root Llodra has no right bringing where she is from!
He hasn't made a stereotype. He just made an assumption, and a pretty logical one at that too. There are more Chinese people in the world than there are Koreans, Japanese, Mongolians, etc. 99% of the time he'd have been right in thinking she was Chinese.

Would he like it is a fan shouted to him "f**king Belgians" or f**king Swiss" ??
This example doesn't work. If he were Belgian and a fan called him a "f_cking Frenchman", then that would be a more accurate example. But even then, it isn't racist, just ignorant.

monfed
03-12-2012, 08:48 AM
He should've said "very badh, very badh" instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6udXOUAzvGc&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL5D03E1E67D70CC82

Lapse in judgement by Meeka, for sure no?

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 08:48 AM
Here's one report of the incident that even thinks the woman was Chinese, censors the words used so you can't make any sense of what he said, and then goes on to say he was insulting everyone:



ML smacked ball out of court, threw racquet, called female Gulbis supporter in crowd a '(bleep)ing Chinese.' I confirmed later with brother of woman."

Officials said Llodra was also verbally abusive towards the ballkids and their coordinator during the match. Besides the fine, Llodra had to apologize for his actions.

DRII
03-12-2012, 08:51 AM
Someone tell me how this is racist?

Chinese is not a race but nationality.

Still, what is it about "Indian" Wells that brings out such discriminatory behavior and slurs?

monfed
03-12-2012, 08:52 AM
So, Llodra has paid the fine and apologized. What's the point of slandering him further?

FlashFlare11
03-12-2012, 08:54 AM
Chinese is not a race but nationality.

Still, what is it about "Indian" Wells that brings out such discriminatory behavior and slurs?

Probably because it's in America. So A.) Players get exposed to many different races and cultures they don't normally see and B.) Our media makes a big deal about even the tiniest instance of racism or potential racism.

I don't know where you live, but if you remember David Ferrer apparently hitting a ball towards a baby in Miami last year, that was huge news here.

magnut
03-12-2012, 08:55 AM
Chinese is not a race but nationality.

Still, what is it about "Indian" Wells that brings out such discriminatory behavior and slurs?

Balls fly and you make more errors.

Plus its in America and we took care of those indians along time ago. Indians now have become racist over it. It should be called American Wells. Where is the Black and Mexican Wells tournaments. Clearly the tour is selling out to either Racist Indians or Middle East money tycoons.

AtomicForehand
03-12-2012, 08:57 AM
So, Llodra has paid the fine and apologized. What's the point of slandering him further?

"Slander" is when you spread maliciously false information about a person.

This information doesn't appear to be false. Llodra paid the fine and apologized instead of denying or fighting the charge.

In other news, I seriously can't believe most of the idiot comments in this thread. A pathetic bunch of posters for sure.

phnx90
03-12-2012, 08:57 AM
Probably because it's in America. So A.) Players get exposed to many different races and cultures they don't normally see and B.) Our media makes a big deal about even the tiniest instance of racism or potential racism.

To the point where they're overcompensating. Why on earth would you have a Black History Month and an International Women's Day if you actually thought blacks and women are the same as anybody else?

magnut
03-12-2012, 08:59 AM
So, Llodra has paid the fine and apologized. What's the point of slandering him further?

He is a potentially dangerous person who may be possible of hate crimes. Therfore he should be sensored.

He has already proven that when he is not happy he can be rude and its just not normal to act like that.:shock:

cknobman
03-12-2012, 09:00 AM
The only time you can do stuff like this and it not be racist is directing your comments to a "Caucasian" (preferably an american male)

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 09:00 AM
He apologized, but I'm not sure he's happy about the fine or the suggestion he was racially motivated.

The fact is that there are hardly any clear facts in the case to make judgements beyond that he was seriously rude in his behaviour and deserved some sort of punishment.



"Slander" is when you spread maliciously false information about a person.

This information doesn't appear to be false. Llodra paid the fine and apologized instead of denying or fighting the charge.

In other news, I seriously can't believe most of the idiot comments in this thread. A pathetic bunch of posters for sure.

magnut
03-12-2012, 09:01 AM
To the point where they're overcompensating. Why on earth would you have a Black History Month and an International Women's Day if you actually thought blacks and women are the same as anybody else?

Why would you have affirmative action?

FlashFlare11
03-12-2012, 09:01 AM
He is a potentially dangerous person who may be possible of hate crimes. Therfore he should be sensored.

He has already proven that when he is not happy he can be rude and its just not normal to act like that.:shock:

I agree. I'm not even a white American.

By the way, do you live in America? It's pretty ridiculous how much we have to watch what we say in fear of accidentally offending someone.

phnx90
03-12-2012, 09:01 AM
He is a potentially dangerous person who may be possible of hate crimes. Therfore he should be sensored.

He has already proven that when he is not happy he can be rude and its just not normal to act like that.:shock:

Of course!

We at TTW are all angels. We don't have flamers and trolls, and respect all players equally and are reasonable and objective when our favourite players lose.

monfed
03-12-2012, 09:02 AM
"Slander" is when you spread maliciously false information about a person.

This information doesn't appear to be false. Llodra paid the fine and apologized instead of denying or fighting the charge.

In other news, I seriously can't believe most of the idiot comments in this thread. A pathetic bunch of posters for sure.

Thanks for the correction, but I see you get my point.

magnut
03-12-2012, 09:03 AM
The only time you can do stuff like this and it not be racist is directing your comments to a "Caucasian" (preferably an american male)

correct. Then its "reverse" racism

DRII
03-12-2012, 09:03 AM
Racism is basically hating on a race based on poor or no justifications (e.g. stereotypes).

If the woman took offence at being labelled a Chinese when she was not, wouldn't that make her the racist? What's wrong with being Chinese?



There are probably in excess of 2 billion Chinese people in the world, including those living overseas and those living in Special Administrative Regions (SAR) like Hong Kong and Macau. Chances of assuming an Asian to be Chinese and getting it right is very high. In fact, you could even say Llodra's unlucky that the woman wasn't Chinese (unless it's one of those people who are ethnically Chinese and think they are Canadian, having lived there for a grand total of about 4 years; I hate those people).

Merely adding the word "****ing" before "Chinese" doesn't make the overall sentence/statement racist. The word is used as an emphasis and nothing more.

Besides, it's not like he could've stopped to ask her name, age, sex (because you know, you could offend transvestites, transsexuals and hermaphrodites who possess most or all the characteristics of a woman, but are not, applying the same logic), nationality, ethnicity and sexual orientation, before mouthing her off on (inter)national TV, right?

You do realize that many of the different Asian nationalities and/or ethnicities nearly hate each other, dont you...

To call any Asian, Chinese is quite ignorant and can be highly insulting!

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 09:05 AM
He's been levied a fine, and he may have had a fine garnished from his paycheck but he hasn't admitted to anything other than ill-tempered behaviour for which he did apologize.

phnx90
03-12-2012, 09:07 AM
You do realize that many of the different Asian nationalities and/or ethnicities nearly hate each other, dont you...

To call any Asian, Chinese is quite ignorant and can be highly insulting!

Mate, I'm Korean.

My grandmother got married because had she not, she would've been forced to prostitute herself to the Japanese occupation forces, so I probably know the animosity between Asians better than most people on this board.

I've had people ask if I were Chinese or Japanese plenty of times before; never get offended. Fail to see why I should either, over an honest mistake.

Or maybe I'm just too rational; monfed said I'm too objective to be a Nadal fan.

magnut
03-12-2012, 09:09 AM
He's been levied a fine, and he may have had a fine garnished from his paycheck but he hasn't admitted to anything other than ill-tempered behaviour for which he did apologize.

good enough for me. Personally, if it were me I would just take the ball kids out for some freedom fries. Loud mouthed spectators should not be suprised if a player get a banter going. Hell, Conners would have been banned before he won a Major in todays game. Now we hail him as one of the greats who brought life to the game.

monfed
03-12-2012, 09:13 AM
I've been called an "effing Indian" twice, once I got offended, once I didnot. Depends on the context. In this case, the context works against Meekah. However he's paid the fine and apologized. I don't think more needs to be said about him,really.

FlashFlare11
03-12-2012, 09:18 AM
I've been called an "effing Indian" twice, once I got offended, once I didnot. Depends on the context. In this case, the context works against Meekah. However he's paid the fine and apologized. I don't think more needs to be said about him,really.

I'm Indian and I've been called an "Arab", "Osama bin Laden's cousin", "Saddam Hussein", etc. I got offended the first time, but didn't let the rest of them get to me. There's a lot of ignorance when it comes to race, no matter where you go.

DRII
03-12-2012, 09:19 AM
Of course, I'm not surprised to see the conservative, mainly white male, mantra deriding political correctness or the need for civil discourse as a whole and the consequences for not adhering to such...

Point is: 'P.C.' may be an irritant to you (it even is to me sometimes particularly if its not accurate i.e. 'African Americans'), but ask any minority and they would gladly trade hundreds of years of entrenched-enforced- inferiority with the last few decades of entrenched-enforced- political correctness!

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 09:19 AM
Llodra should be made to realize that God invented tennis so that we can lawfully and honestly destroy other people on the field of battle by depriving them of the money and fame that only we deserve because only we should be victorious.

Oh, that's right, he was losing at the time.

FlashFlare11
03-12-2012, 09:22 AM
Of course, I'm not surprised to see the conservative, mainly white male, mantra deriding political correctness or the need for civil discourse as a whole and the consequences for not adhering to such...

Point is: 'P.C.' may be an irritant to you (it even is to me sometimes particularly if its not accurate i.e. 'African Americans'), but ask any minority and they would gladly trade hundreds of years of entrenched-enforced- inferiority with the last few decades of entrenched-enforced- political correctness!

Political correctness is a good thing, if not taken too far. Slang is getting far too out of hand. It seems like everyday there's a new, potentially offensive word or phrase that I have to watch out for. That's ridiculous!

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 09:29 AM
Humanity is based on hatred.

We know this from the fact that all religions preach love ..

for members of their own religion (but never succeed)

Or like Christianity preach universal love (that never prevented killing)

If that's what religion teaches its because they acknowledge that humanity is based on hatred and it rather blithely thinks it can change that.

We cling to families, including big families like nations, and exclude others.

The first hatred is of course between man and woman.

Does not the bible almost begin with Adam and Eve.

But I don't think people deride civil discourse, but political correctness does tend to be like a religion - hectoring us to be better while denying the dirty little truth that we all hate.



Of course, I'm not surprised to see the conservative, mainly white male, mantra deriding political correctness or the need for civil discourse as a whole and the consequences for not adhering to such...

Point is: 'P.C.' may be an irritant to you (it even is to me sometimes particularly if its not accurate i.e. 'African Americans'), but ask any minority and they would gladly trade hundreds of years of entrenched-enforced- inferiority with the last few decades of entrenched-enforced- political correctness!

AtomicForehand
03-12-2012, 09:30 AM
Slang is getting far too out of hand. It seems like everyday there's a new, potentially offensive word or phrase that I have to watch out for. That's ridiculous!

Poor you! It's so HARD to be civilized!

phnx90
03-12-2012, 09:31 AM
Of course, I'm not surprised to see the conservative, mainly white male, mantra deriding political correctness or the need for civil discourse as a whole and the consequences for not adhering to such...

Point is: 'P.C.' may be an irritant to you (it even is to me sometimes particularly if its not accurate i.e. 'African Americans'), but ask any minority and they would gladly trade hundreds of years of entrenched-enforced- inferiority with the last few decades of entrenched-enforced- political correctness!

I happen to be a liberal, "yellow" male, so clearly you should take heed some of your own advice not make supposedly-offensive generalisations like assuming that all of us are conservative, white and male.

Sorry, but political-correctness is for most intents and purposes, a bad thing. Politeness however, is a good thing, and I think you have the two confused for the same thing, which they are not. Political-correctness is politeness taken too far.

Being polite involves obeying common courtesies and respect. Poltical-correctness is "tyranny with manners" (Charlton Heston) because it involves not being able to say anything that runs the risk of offending other people, which is a lot of things. That's why we're now stuck with having to say redundant things like "in my opinion, I believe" and "I personally believe", just so that nobody has to go crying to mommy (or should I say "parents"?) about some words that some random person (therefore male and/or female and including the possibility of those who may have difficulty providing a straightforward answer, including, but not limited to transsexuals who have not completed the sex change process) said online.

Seriously, isn't "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" something we tell our children, for Christ's sake? I mean, God's sake? I mean, Pete's sake? I mean, someone important's sake?

FlamEnemY
03-12-2012, 09:31 AM
There are probably in excess of 2 billion Chinese people in the world, including those living overseas and those living in Special Administrative Regions (SAR) like Hong Kong and Macau...

I agree. Maybe my attempt at sarcasm was not obvious enough.

Anyway, $2, 500 should not be too much for him.

FlashFlare11
03-12-2012, 09:34 AM
Poor you! It's so HARD to be civilized!

Sorry, I don't know about you, but I'm not a huge fan of having my vocabulary shrunk by a bunch of high schoolers and college students who decide to make regular words obscene and then have them become an online sensation, and then, all of a sudden, become taboo. I'm not talking about words that have a history of being offensive, I'm talking about words that form everyday (and yes, I've had racial slurs thrown against me).

phnx90
03-12-2012, 09:38 AM
I agree. Maybe my attempt at sarcasm was not obvious enough.

Anyway, $2, 500 should not be too much for him.

Come to read your post again, whoops, looks like my sarcasm detector today is more busted than the Greek economy :P

phnx90
03-12-2012, 09:40 AM
Sorry, I don't know about you, but I'm not a huge fan of having my vocabulary shrunk by a bunch of high schoolers and college students who decide to make regular words obscene and then have them become an online sensation, and then, all of a sudden, become taboo. I'm not talking about words that have a history of being offensive, I'm talking about words that form everyday (and yes, I've had racial slurs thrown against me).

Watch out, there's word that the cartoon "Tom & Jerry" are named after slang used to describe British and German soldiers in WWII...so yeah...watch out who you discuss your childhood cartoons with :P

FlashFlare11
03-12-2012, 09:45 AM
Watch out, there's word that the cartoon "Tom & Jerry" are named after slang used to describe British and German soldiers in WWII...so yeah...watch out who you discuss your childhood cartoons with :P

I honestly can't tell whether you're being sarcastic or not.

Am I saying something really wrong here?

monfed
03-12-2012, 09:46 AM
I'm Indian and I've been called an "Arab", "Osama bin Laden's cousin", "Saddam Hussein", etc. I got offended the first time, but didn't let the rest of them get to me. There's a lot of ignorance when it comes to race, no matter where you go.

I bet you probably giggled on some of them didn't you? Some of the things I've been called are downright funny(not sure If I can mention them here). But you're right about the ignorance bit.

DRII
03-12-2012, 09:48 AM
I happen to be a liberal, "yellow" male, so clearly you should take heed some of your own advice not make supposedly-offensive generalisations like assuming that all of us are conservative, white and male.

Sorry, but political-correctness is for most intents and purposes, a bad thing. Politeness however, is a good thing, and I think you have the two confused for the same thing, which they are not. Political-correctness is politeness taken too far.

Being polite involves obeying common courtesies and respect. Poltical-correctness is "tyranny with manners" (Charlton Heston) because it involves not being able to say anything that runs the risk of offending other people, which is a lot of things. That's why we're now stuck with having to say redundant things like "in my opinion, I believe" and "I personally believe", just so that nobody has to go crying to mommy (or should I say "parents"?) about some words that some random person (therefore male and/or female and including the possibility of those who may have difficulty providing a straightforward answer, including, but not limited to transsexuals who have not completed the sex change process) said online.

Seriously, isn't "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" something we tell our children, for Christ's sake? I mean, God's sake? I mean, Pete's sake? I mean, someone important's sake?

Ah, yea... thats why i said 'mainly' (context anyone)...

And again, i also said that I to sometimes find political corrctness to be irritating. However, P.C. is basically forced politeness; i get that its the 'forced' part that many (mostly conservatives, white males) find offensive. But taking offense to it, is basically ignoring or diminishing the cause for P.C. in the first place; the oppression (in its many forms) of minorites over the years In America (and often government enforced oppression).

So, to try and right that wrong, we have government and/or society enforced political correctness or affirmative action etc now... As we continue to progress there will be less and less need for such things.

Also P.C. does not stop anyone from saying anything; you just have to deal with the consequences of saying something out of bounds.

FlashFlare11
03-12-2012, 09:49 AM
I bet you probably giggled on some of them didn't you? Some of the things I've been called are downright funny(not sure If I can mention them here). But you're right about the ignorance bit.

Yeah, I laugh about it now. I even laughed about it then. I've always been against racial slurs and discrimination, but never really cared that much when they were said to me.

phnx90
03-12-2012, 09:51 AM
I honestly can't tell whether you're being sarcastic or not.

Am I saying something really wrong here?

Well the "Tom & Jerry" part isn't sarcastic, and I'm in agreement with you.

FlashFlare11
03-12-2012, 09:54 AM
Well the "Tom & Jerry" part isn't sarcastic, and I'm in agreement with you.

Hahahaha sorry!

Yeah, I have no problem with political correctness. My problem is with keeping up with what is acceptable to say in public, since it seems like the list of words and phrases that are acceptable shrinks by the day.

magnut
03-12-2012, 10:01 AM
Hahahaha sorry!

Yeah, I have no problem with political correctness. My problem is with keeping up with what is acceptable to say in public, since it seems like the list of words and phrases that are acceptable shrinks by the day.

Your not supposed to "keep up" with it. Your supposed to not talk. Thats why the Nazis designed it.

So if people dont have a problem with it then its simple.......shut up.

phnx90
03-12-2012, 10:07 AM
Ah, yea... thats why i said 'mainly' (context anyone)...

And again, i also said that I to sometimes find political corrctness to be irritating. However, P.C. is basically forced politeness; i get that its the 'forced' part that many (mostly conservatives, white males) find offensive. But taking offense to it, is basically ignoring or diminishing the cause for P.C. in the first place; the oppression (in its many forms) of minorites over the years In America (and often government enforced oppression).

So, to try and right that wrong, we have government and/or society enforced political correctness or affirmative action etc now... As we continue to progress there will be less and less need for such things.

Also P.C. does not stop anyone from saying anything; you just have to deal with the consequences of saying something out of bounds.

There is no need for PC in the circumstances you have described. You're saying that you're righting a wrong by forcing white people to respect minorities.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. First off, you're not actually forcing the respect on those people who committed the prejudices; rather, you're forcing people who have little to do with racism, to respect people that they never derided in the first place. Meanwhile, those who are actually racist just are not going to respect minorities, because political-correctness has no way to compel them to do so. Racism per se is not a criminal offence or civil wrong.

Secondly, that mainly conservatives would find PC abhorrent is also a misconception, because it impinges on free speech, which is, as far as the USA is concerned, something celebrated by both ends of the political (and ethical) spectrum. You say that PC doesn't stop anyone from saying anything, but again, that's not what PC is. I'll say again: to be PC is to not say anything that will offend others. What you're describing as a good thing is straightforward politeness and respect.

The consequences of saying something that isn't PC usually involve being labelled a hater of some shape or form. If I were to state (based on statistics that some 40% of people in prison are black) that most low-level criminals are black, I'd be labelled a racist and not a shred of thought would be given by most, of the value of my statement. As such, there is little room for debate, and what was originally the marketplace of ideas merely boils down to pedantic name-calling by grown-up men and women who ought to know better.

DRII
03-12-2012, 10:37 AM
There is no need for PC in the circumstances you have described. You're saying that you're righting a wrong by forcing white people to respect minorities.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. First off, you're not actually forcing the respect on those people who committed the prejudices; rather, you're forcing people who have little to do with racism, to respect people that they never derided in the first place. Meanwhile, those who are actually racist just are not going to respect minorities, because political-correctness has no way to compel them to do so. Racism per se is not a criminal offence or civil wrong.

Secondly, that mainly conservatives would find PC abhorrent is also a misconception, because it impinges on free speech, which is, as far as the USA is concerned, something celebrated by both ends of the political (and ethical) spectrum. You say that PC doesn't stop anyone from saying anything, but again, that's not what PC is. I'll say again: to be PC is to not say anything that will offend others. What you're describing as a good thing is straightforward politeness and respect.

The consequences of saying something that isn't PC usually involve being labelled a hater of some shape or form. If I were to state (based on statistics that some 40% of people in prison are black) that most low-level criminals are black, I'd be labelled a racist and not a shred of thought would be given by most, of the value of my statement. As such, there is little room for debate, and what was originally the marketplace of ideas merely boils down to pedantic name-calling by grown-up men and women who ought to know better.

I never said P.C. is about respect, I know better than that. Its about not conspicuously and outwardly offending others, regardless of one's true intent or feelings... and its not just about white people and minorities; its about all entrenched majorities as a group (measured by power/superiority status) and historically oppressed minorities as a group, i.e. men vs women etc...

Just because an individual, of an entrenched majority class, may have not personally discriminated against an individual of a historically oppressed minority class; does not mean that the individual in question has not benefitted from being apart of that majority class and therefore are not granted the current affirmative action benefits (of which i include political correctness in this discussion) of a minority.

Of course in an Utopian world, which many conservatives like to believe exist now, this is unfair.

And yes P.C. does not stop anyone from saying anything! Its only if you choose to abide by the ever changing standards of political correctness that your free speech is stifled. Again, however no one is forced to be politically correct. It seems as though you are treating political correctness as a verb or some active force. Perhaps it is just a semantic difference in our arguments regarding this point...

stringertom
03-12-2012, 10:49 AM
Frakkin serve and volleyers, they're all the same.

Especially f***ing left-handed S&V'ers! You cannot be serious!

tacou
03-12-2012, 01:56 PM
hah people can't even agree why this is racist

weird though Llodra seemed like such a chill guy

Hominator
03-12-2012, 02:43 PM
If Llodra said that in French, and the woman didn't understand what he said, was what he said to that woman offensive? If so, to whom, was it offensive?

Honest question.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-12-2012, 02:58 PM
If Llodra said that in French, and the woman didn't understand what he said, was what he said to that woman offensive? If so, to whom, was it offensive?

Honest question.

Maybe to her brother who speaks french?

Bobby Jr
03-12-2012, 03:11 PM
China is also multi-ethnic, and race is not really a useful term.

The fact is that referring to any ethnic or national group in a derogatory manner could be regarded as racist in popular terms.

If you take what Llodra said and substituted American for Chinese it could be construed as racist.
It's simple - ethnicity and race are not the same thing.

If someone said "stupid American" it may be offensive but almost no-one would consider it racist. Americans are not a race of people, nor are there a group of people commonly referred to as the American race

Native Americans would be the only group who could plausibly take legitimate offence in a racial framework. Even then, I think they identify themselves less in those terms in modern era and more in terms of their tribal origins (which are basically all common technically).

Of course China is multi-ethnic (despite hundreds of years of efforts by various rulers :p) - but they are in the huge majority Asian by race.

Bobby Jr
03-12-2012, 03:21 PM
That only actually matters if your Asian. For everyone else all Asian are considered Chinese.
Not sure where you live in but this is incorrect. If you'd travelled to SE Asia you'd see it's blatantly obvious that ethnic Malays for example are about a similar to Chinese as native Americans are to Spanish people. Ditto for Central Asian (India etc).

Its like when New Zealand Kiwis get bent out of shape when people call them Ausies. The rest of the world does not really give a rip.
Well no-one really ever refers to New Zealanders as "New Zealand Kiwis" - except the most ignorant out there. They're either "New Zealanders" or "Kiwis" - they mean the same thing in common usage so no need to duplicate the efforts.

Also no New Zealander ever took racial offence to be called an Aussie and vice versa - much like Canadians don't if you mistakenly call them Americans. People just like to be known for where they're from, not their neighbours. Nothing more and there's certainly no racial implication/overtone.

magnut
03-12-2012, 03:40 PM
Not sure where you live in but this is incorrect. If you'd travelled to SE Asia you'd see it's blatantly obvious that ethnic Malays for example are about a similar to Chinese as native Americans are to Spanish people. Ditto for Central Asian (India etc).


Well no-one really ever refers to New Zealanders as "New Zealand Kiwis" - except the most ignorant out there. They're either "New Zealanders" or "Kiwis" - they mean the same thing in common usage so no need to duplicate the efforts.

Also no New Zealander ever took racial offence to be called an Aussie and vice versa - much like Canadians don't if you mistakenly call them Americans. People just like to be known for where they're from, not their neighbours. Nothing more and there's certainly no racial implication/overtone.

LOL :). You crack me up.

Bobby Jr
03-12-2012, 03:48 PM
LOL :). You crack me up.
In that I fell for your effort at humour? :lol:

Manus Domini
03-12-2012, 07:26 PM
It would be like if a guy crashes into my car. I would never say "Damn blacks" or even think it because its the not the race that has anything to do him crashing into my car.

Sir, are you suggesting that only a black person would crash into your car? That's racist ;) Jk :p

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 07:37 PM
Your view is tantamount to saying that nobody can be a racist unless the group being vilified is a bona fide race.

But there is no such thing as a bona fide race.

Do some research and you'll find that modern scientific research is none too happy with the idea of races.

This is what Wikipedia says and in my opinion it is essentially correct:

While biologists sometimes use the concept of race to make distinctions among fuzzy sets of traits, others in the scientific community suggest that the idea of race is often used [5] in a naive[6] or simplistic way. Among humans, race has no taxonomic significance; all living humans belong to the same hominid subspecies, **** sapiens sapiens.[7][8] Social conceptions and groupings of races vary over time, involving folk taxonomies [9] that define essential types of individuals based on perceived traits. Scientists consider biological essentialism obsolete,[10] and generally discourage racial explanations for collective differentiation in both physical and behavioral traits.[6][11]



It's simple - ethnicity and race are not the same thing.

If someone said "stupid American" it may be offensive but almost no-one would consider it racist. Americans are not a race of people, nor are there a group of people commonly referred to as the American race

Native Americans would be the only group who could plausibly take legitimate offence in a racial framework. Even then, I think they identify themselves less in those terms in modern era and more in terms of their tribal origins (which are basically all common technically).

Of course China is multi-ethnic (despite hundreds of years of efforts by various rulers :p) - but they are in the huge majority Asian by race.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-12-2012, 07:38 PM
It's racist because he associates the behaviour which he dislikes with a racial group, which is pretty ignorant and silly. It's the individual and her behaviour which he should be taking a disliking to not the racial group to which she belongs.

It would be like if a guy crashes into my car. I would never say "Damn blacks" or even think it because its the not the race that has anything to do him crashing into my car.

This is the only person that gets it.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-12-2012, 07:40 PM
Of course it's true the idea of race is suspect. 'Races' simply arose because some people turned left and other right during the migration out of Africa. That being said races are recognized despite their biological falsity.

Fearsome Forehand
03-12-2012, 07:43 PM
Michael Llodra was fined $US2,500 ($A2,300) for using a racial slur during his opening-round match against Ernests Gulbis at the ATP Tour's Indian Wells tournament, officials said on Sunday.
The French player yelled at a Chinese female supporter of Gulbis during his 6-3 5-7 7-6 (7-3) win over the Latvian on Friday.
The incident was witnessed by Canadian journalist Tom Tebbutt who wrote about it on his social networking Twitter site.
``Sat very first row -- dead centre behind the court for Llodra-Gulbis -- heard a lot. Deplorable behaviour by Llodra -- read next tweet.
``ML smacked ball out of court, threw racquet, called female Gulbis supporter in crowd a '(bleep)ing Chinese.' I confirmed later with brother of woman.''
Officials said Llodra was also verbally abusive towards the ballboys and their coordinator during the match. Besides the fine, Llodra had to apologise for his actions.

AAP.

Did he recently marry Brooke Shields. :)

Probably a little cranky that day. People should not be judged on one outburst especially when they are in a zero sum game pressure packed situation. Let's face it, some fans are pretty annoying. At least he didnt go all McEnroe/Natase/Connors on her/them. :)

BFD. Guy has a pretty one handed backhand though.

Saw him play Roddick once about 10 years ago. He got into an argument with the chair ump (might have been Norm Christ or Steve Ulricht), he went all Italian on him with the hand gestures, etc. Had the crowd LOL. Classic !

Edit: Wasn't Llodra who is French, it was Davide Sanguinetti. Saw Llodra play Hewitt during the same tournament sans histrionics.

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 07:44 PM
He actually associated the behaviour he disliked far more with the fact that she was a woman if the three adjectives that he is purported to have used were indeed used.

He used none of the adjectives used to vilify habitually people of Chinese ethnicity.

volleygirl
03-12-2012, 07:50 PM
wow, I didn't realise saying what country somebody was from was racist!
I will have to remember that the next time I have a conference call with our office with my French counterparts. Darn it, I just did it.
Brave New World.




Exactly. Its not racist, he maybe a jerk for saying it but it isnt racist. The PC police have made everyone so sensitive that anything they hear that offends someone is labeled racist. When people say "ugly Americans" they are never labeled racists.

Cindysphinx
03-12-2012, 07:55 PM
This is the only person that gets it.

+1.

I am amazed that folks have so much difficulty with this concept. If you drag a person's race/ethnicity into a dispute having nothing to do with race in an effort to put them down, you are being racist.

Honestly. Do you think you can get into a dispute with somebody and toss out something like "Dirty Jew" and not have a problem?

It is not a defense that the person is actually the race or ethnicity that you selected. It's that you are bringing it up to disparage the person.

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 08:02 PM
Being Jewish or American has nothing to do with race.

Llodra said nothing equivalent to the expression you quote.

Indeed, we have little certain evidence of what he did say.

What little 'evidence' there is indicates misogyny.



+1.

I am amazed that folks have so much difficulty with this concept. If you drag a person's race/ethnicity into a dispute having nothing to do with race in an effort to put them down, you are being racist.

Honestly. Do you think you can get into a dispute with somebody and toss out something like "Dirty Jew" and not have a problem?

It is not a defense that the person is actually the race or ethnicity that you selected. It's that you are bringing it up to disparage the person.

tusharlovesrafa
03-12-2012, 09:53 PM
I bet you probably giggled on some of them didn't you? Some of the things I've been called are downright funny(not sure If I can mention them here). But you're right about the ignorance bit.

I'm Indian and I've been called an "Arab", "Osama bin Laden's cousin", "Saddam Hussein", etc. I got offended the first time, but didn't let the rest of them get to me. There's a lot of ignorance when it comes to race, no matter where you go.

WOW..lol..So many indians down here.I don't know how it feels being racially abused or a being a target of a racist slur,as I have never been abroad.:)..But many people is US are very racistt.Just ask the BLACK communit in US.They have been subjected to humiliation and are repeatEdly called N******.:(.It's just a small example,I don't want to open can of worms down here.

Bartelby
03-12-2012, 10:17 PM
Rush Limabugh's no fluke!

Nathaniel_Near
03-12-2012, 10:38 PM
WOW..lol..So many indians down here.I don't know how it feels being racially abused or a being a target of a racist slur,as I have never been abroad.:)..But many people is US are very racistt.Just ask the BLACK communit in US.They have been subjected to humiliation and are repeatEdly called N******.:(.It's just a small example,I don't want to open can of worms down here.

It's funny, I'm mixed race (Caucasian - Afro Caribbean) yet the most common racism I've received in my life has been racial slur that is handed out to Indians and Pakistanis, at least in the UK. My skin is more lightly coloured and last time I went to see Hull City FC live, an old guy next to me suggested after the game that I go home and 'have fun with my prayer mat', presuming me to be a Muslim probably based on the fact I was sporting a rather impressive beard at the time. I've been repeatedly shouted at by people throughout my life, the most common intended insult being 'Paki'.

I stand there thinking, if you're going to be racist, at LEAST get it right!:)

li0scc0
03-13-2012, 05:45 AM
My guess is that he was focussed on an individual, but it is interesting that attitudes to women barely registered as compared to the race angle.

Sadly, that rarely seems to matter. When Don Imus called the Rutgers women's basketball team 'nappy haired ho's', nobody cared that he called them w.h.o.r.e.s.
As the father of a couple of daughters in sports, that troubled me quite a bit!

Gorecki
03-13-2012, 06:19 AM
oh my dear... are my eyes deceiving me?

DjokovicForTheWin
03-13-2012, 06:24 AM
+1.

I am amazed that folks have so much difficulty with this concept. If you drag a person's race/ethnicity into a dispute having nothing to do with race in an effort to put them down, you are being racist.

Honestly. Do you think you can get into a dispute with somebody and toss out something like "Dirty Jew" and not have a problem?

It is not a defense that the person is actually the race or ethnicity that you selected. It's that you are bringing it up to disparage the person.

Woohooo, someone else gets it too. Unfortunately most of the idiots are arguing over race/ethnicity/nationality and failing to understand the essence of the issue.

chippy17
03-13-2012, 06:34 AM
sorry if mentioned before but the term/word you are looking for is: xenophobia

cknobman
03-13-2012, 06:36 AM
It may be unfair to judge Llodra until we know all the facts.

Was the spectator actually Chinese?
What was the spectator doing to **** him off? Did it warrant his outburst?

These cannot go unanswered.

Bartelby
03-13-2012, 06:41 AM
Everything is a morass of contradictory statements.

The bottom line is that he behaved badly to various people so he deserved the fine.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-13-2012, 06:47 AM
Stupid person with two legs and wearing shoes with laces, oh yeah and incidentally, Chinese too, stop making noise during my matches.

aphex
03-13-2012, 06:50 AM
Its human nature to bring up the most marked characteristic in situations like this...

If he were a 300lb male, he would've probably said "You fat blablah"

tusharlovesrafa
03-13-2012, 06:50 AM
It's funny, I'm mixed race (Caucasian - Afro Caribbean) yet the most common racism I've received in my life has been racial slur that is handed out to Indians and Pakistanis, at least in the UK. My skin is more lightly coloured and last time I went to see Hull City FC live, an old guy next to me suggested after the game that I go home and 'have fun with my prayer mat', presuming me to be a Muslim probably based on the fact I was sporting a rather impressive beard at the time. I've been repeatedly shouted at by people throughout my life, the most common intended insult being 'Paki'.

I stand there thinking, if you're going to be racist, at LEAST get it right!:)

My Oh My!! You clearly misunderstood me.I am indian(wheatish/brown skin)..The bolded clearly specifies that indians and pakistanis have subject to immense humiliation in counrties such as UK,AUSTRALIA,US(where indians/pakistanis population is quite high).I have never passed any racist comment in my life nor ever made fun of any religion,caste or race.
And the example you are giving me is more of a western thinking of people,it's like,"Oh look at this guy he's got a long beard and looks asian...he might be muslim..what the heck he is doing here??". Specially after 2001 WTC incident,many muslims has been very unfairly targeted.:(..

DRII
03-13-2012, 07:01 AM
It may be unfair to judge Llodra until we know all the facts.

Was the spectator actually Chinese?
What was the spectator doing to **** him off? Did it warrant his outburst?

These cannot go unanswered.

If she was here in America, she most likely was American (obviously of some Asian heritage)!

Point is, he was being discriminatory based on the phenotype of the woman in question. The discrimination is tantamount to racism or ethnic(ism).

All of these various phenomena we are discussing are social behaviors based on social constructs. As someone stated before; there is only one human race. As evidence we all can make love and make beautiful babies (as a matter of fact - the 'mixed' kids tend to be the prettiest :) )!

slice bh compliment
03-13-2012, 07:01 AM
Chinese is not a race but nationality.

Still, what is it about "Indian" Wells that brings out such discriminatory behavior and slurs?

You mean Native American Wells, right?
Up in Canada, they call it First Nations Wells.

DRII
03-13-2012, 07:04 AM
My Oh My!! You clearly misunderstood me.I am indian(wheatish/brown skin)..The bolded clearly specifies that indians and pakistanis have subject to immense humiliation in counrties such as UK,AUSTRALIA,US(where indians/pakistanis population is quite high).I have never passed any racist comment in my life nor ever made fun of any religion,caste or race.And the example you are giving me is more of a western thinking of people,it's like,"Oh look at this guy he's got a long beard and looks asian...he might be muslim..what the heck he is doing here??". Specially after 2001 WTC incident,many muslims has been very unfairly targeted.:(..

Well, you would be in the minority!

Racism most certainly exist in regions besides the 'West', and definitely in India!

DRII
03-13-2012, 07:06 AM
You mean Native American Wells, right?
Up in Canada, they call it First Nations Wells.

Good!

That was my point.

I hate that name "Indian" Wells! Judging from past events at that site, the name (or ideas behind the name) are clearly indicative of the thinking of many in that area.

slice bh compliment
03-13-2012, 07:09 AM
... he went all Italian on him with the hand gestures, etc. Had the crowd LOL. Classic !

That was funny.
I know an Italian guy who is pretty stoic, actually. Breakin' down walls every day! But his sister still has a 'stache and his hair smells of olive oil.
Kidding.
Didn't a wise man once say, "Everybody's a little bit racist"?

Sir, are you suggesting that only a black person would crash into your car? That's racist ;) Jk :p

'My black friend' is a really safe driver.
He is 'articulate', too.

I am 'tolerant'.

^I am kidding ... Brothers love it when you say those things.


Allez Llodra. Apologize and learn from it. You elegant, serving and volleying Frog, you.

syke
03-13-2012, 07:13 AM
Chinese is not a race but nationality.

Still, what is it about "Indian" Wells that brings out such discriminatory behavior and slurs?

Chinese is both a race and a nationality...
You have the real deal "Han" Chinese, and Chinese nationals who are Korean, Tibetan, Mongolian, Indian, Russian.

Just like for e.g. French is both race and nationality..
You have them by ethnicity, Swiss French, Belgian French.. and you have French that are Indian, Moroccan or Vietnamese. Look at Monfils... He is French but not French in race.

DRII
03-13-2012, 07:28 AM
Chinese is both a race and a nationality...
You have the real deal "Han" Chinese, and Chinese nationals who are Korean, Tibetan, Mongolian, Indian, Russian.

Just like for e.g. French is both race and nationality..
You have them by ethnicity, Swiss French, Belgian French.. and you have French that are Indian, Moroccan or Vietnamese. Look at Monfils... He is French but not French in race.

Sorry, but you're incorrect.

French and Chinese are not races, they are considered designations of nationalities, i.e. a French or Chinese citizen.

The Han Chinese are an ethnic group (the largest in the world).

By scientific standards there is only one human race, as in all humans can mate and produce fertile offspring.

By slightly less scientific standards (Anthropology or other humanities studies) there are 3 recognized human races mostly by social construct: Mongoloid, Caucasoid, and Negroid.

Bartelby
03-13-2012, 08:01 AM
These statements are fundamentally correct and everyone needs to memorize them.


Sorry, but you're incorrect.

French and Chinese are not races, they are considered designations of nationalities, i.e. a French or Chinese citizen.

The Han Chinese are an ethnic group (the largest in the world).

By scientific standards there is only one human race, as in all humans can mate and produce fertile offspring.

By slightly less scientific standards (Anthropology or other humanities studies) there are 3 recognized human races mostly by social construct: Mongoloid, Caucasoid, and Negroid.

Bartelby
03-13-2012, 08:06 AM
The police like to divide the world into three human races by social construct and I'm not convinced that the Humanties are responsible, so apart from this qualification the statements above are correct.

jmverdugo
03-13-2012, 08:07 AM
More important and regardless of the race / nationality issues, Llodra used the word Chinese to single out this person not as an insult, the insult was the word he used before and after, and frankly if you feel that being call Chinese is an insult then you are the one with problems. I am not defending him, he definitely did a very stupid thing but IMO it is not racist.

FlashFlare11
03-13-2012, 08:10 AM
These statements are fundamentally correct and everyone needs to memorize them.

He is correct in every way. But we also have to understand that race can be separated scientifically and socially. And the social aspects of race is what the general public uses to define it. It's there where we run into problems.

Bartelby
03-13-2012, 08:18 AM
Sorry but the humanities don't divide the world thus, and I do know.

Bartelby
03-13-2012, 08:27 AM
A survey, taken in 1985 (Lieberman et al. 1992), asked 1,200 American scientists how many disagree with the following proposition: "There are biological races in the species **** sapiens." The responses were for anthropologists:
physical anthropologists 41%
cultural anthropologists 53%[106]
The figure for physical anthropologists at PhD granting departments was slightly higher, rising from 41% to 42%, with 50% agreeing. This survey, however, did not specify any particular definition of race (although it did clearly specify biological race within the species **** sapiens); it is difficult to say whether those who supported the statement thought of race in taxonomic or population terms.

The same survey, taken in 1999,[107] showed the following changing results for anthropologists:
physical anthropologists 69%
cultural anthropologists 80%


And this is among american anthropologists, the number of anthropologists who reject the idea of race would be far higher outside of the us.

FlashFlare11
03-13-2012, 08:43 AM
A survey, taken in 1985 (Lieberman et al. 1992), asked 1,200 American scientists how many disagree with the following proposition: "There are biological races in the species **** sapiens." The responses were for anthropologists:
physical anthropologists 41%
cultural anthropologists 53%[106]
The figure for physical anthropologists at PhD granting departments was slightly higher, rising from 41% to 42%, with 50% agreeing. This survey, however, did not specify any particular definition of race (although it did clearly specify biological race within the species **** sapiens); it is difficult to say whether those who supported the statement thought of race in taxonomic or population terms.

The same survey, taken in 1999,[107] showed the following changing results for anthropologists:
physical anthropologists 69%
cultural anthropologists 80%


And this is among american anthropologists, the number of anthropologists who reject the idea of race would be far higher outside of the us.

That's a rather interesting survey, especially the results in 1999. I didn't expect such a high percentage of American scientists to reject the notion of biological race.

The face of a changing mindset in America?

magnut
03-13-2012, 08:49 AM
That's a rather interesting survey, especially the results in 1999. I didn't expect such a high percentage of American scientists to reject the notion of biological race.

The face of a changing mindset in America?

Scientists have interesting ways to scew evidence to support whatever agenda they are paid to support. They have become as trustworthy as doctors, lawyers, politicians, teachers, and media.

DRII
03-13-2012, 08:52 AM
Yea, interesting Bartelbly.

I was not aware of those findings regarding anthropologists. i wonder what the breakdown is today...

FlashFlare11
03-13-2012, 08:54 AM
Yea, interesting Bartelbly.

I was not aware of those findings regarding anthropologists. i wonder what the breakdown is today...

Probably a bit higher. Although, I can't say that it'll ever become anywhere close 98-100%.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-13-2012, 09:19 AM
I guess if I say "you stupid fudge head", technically I didn't use a swear word so I have not sworn despite the intention. :rolleyes:

LuckyR
03-13-2012, 09:50 AM
It is interesting the contortions folks will use to microanalyse a situation.

Bottom line, his job is to promote tennis and sell tickets and his behavior/commentary was against that, hence a punitive measure (a fine).

aphex
03-13-2012, 10:08 AM
It is interesting the contortions folks will use to microanalyse a situation.

Bottom line, his job is to promote tennis and sell tickets and his behavior/commentary was against that, hence a punitive measure (a fine).

That is not his job.

LuckyR
03-13-2012, 10:29 AM
That is not his job.

Ask the ATP what his job is.

magnut
03-13-2012, 10:36 AM
Ask the ATP what his job is.

Um no, his job is to win tennis matches. Thats what keeps him on the tour.

The tournament is in the business of promoting sales. If what you say were true guys like Davydenko never would have had careers and guys like Agassi would have won every tournament the ever played in and be the GOAT.

Nice try though. Money does not control everything in this sport. They are sure trying though.

lbjames23
03-13-2012, 12:39 PM
Someone tell me how this is racist?

let s change it up a bit. tell me ,so if during a match in IndianWells, lodra yell at: "u ****ing hongkongnese".do you find it s racist ?

Or when lodra s supporters r being shouted :" ****ing french" in the same venue.

here u go, you find the answer yourself.

lbjames23
03-13-2012, 12:41 PM
They should have just fined him for abuse as its too difficult to get into an issue like racial abuse unless you have a proper hearing, etc., where wider issues can be canvassed and that would be a ridiculous waste of time and money.

By itself, referring to someone's presumed ethnicity when insulting them is not necessarily racist, especially when you're dealing with people who don't belong to groups having some historically grounded animosity.

the problem is the F word. unless you ve been called a lot. I m just saying , no offense.
Welcome to America

lbjames23
03-13-2012, 12:51 PM
Racism is basically hating on a race based on poor or no justifications (e.g. stereotypes).

If the woman took offence at being labelled a Chinese when she was not, wouldn't that make her the racist? What's wrong with being Chinese?



There are probably in excess of 2 billion Chinese people in the world, including those living overseas and those living in Special Administrative Regions (SAR) like Hong Kong and Macau. Chances of assuming an Asian to be Chinese and getting it right is very high. In fact, you could even say Llodra's unlucky that the woman wasn't Chinese (unless it's one of those people who are ethnically Chinese and think they are Canadian, having lived there for a grand total of about 4 years; I hate those people).

Merely adding the word "****ing" before "Chinese" doesn't make the overall sentence/statement racist. The word is used as an emphasis and nothing more.

Besides, it's not like he could've stopped to ask her name, age, sex (because you know, you could offend transvestites, transsexuals and hermaphrodites who possess most or all the characteristics of a woman, but are not, applying the same logic), nationality, ethnicity and sexual orientation, before mouthing her off on (inter)national TV, right?

you sir sure have no shame. if someone calls you ****ing phnx90, you d answer that cuz u think it s emphasizing ur name.

stormholloway
03-13-2012, 01:23 PM
I don't really understand the apologizing. By saying "putain Chinoise" or "f*cking Chinese" he is implying that whatever that individual was doing was consistent with what he perceives to be typical, negative behavior by Chinese people.

CDestroyer
03-13-2012, 01:54 PM
Michael Llodra was fined $US2,500 ($A2,300) for using a racial slur during his opening-round match against Ernests Gulbis at the ATP Tour's Indian Wells tournament, officials said on Sunday.
The French player yelled at a Chinese female supporter of Gulbis during his 6-3 5-7 7-6 (7-3) win over the Latvian on Friday.
The incident was witnessed by Canadian journalist Tom Tebbutt who wrote about it on his social networking Twitter site.
``Sat very first row -- dead centre behind the court for Llodra-Gulbis -- heard a lot. Deplorable behaviour by Llodra -- read next tweet.
``ML smacked ball out of court, threw racquet, called female Gulbis supporter in crowd a '(bleep)ing Chinese.' I confirmed later with brother of woman.''
Officials said Llodra was also verbally abusive towards the ballboys and their coordinator during the match. Besides the fine, Llodra had to apologise for his actions.

AAP.

A rude Frenchy what a massive suprise.

cknobman
03-13-2012, 02:16 PM
A rude Frenchy what a massive suprise.

^^^^^^^

Perfect example of being racist. LMAO

magnut
03-13-2012, 02:22 PM
Chinese Chicks are known for this kind of behavior at Gulbis matches. I think you will find this to be common knowledge on the tour.

li0scc0
03-13-2012, 03:46 PM
A survey, taken in 1985 (Lieberman et al. 1992), asked 1,200 American scientists how many disagree with the following proposition: "There are biological races in the species **** sapiens." The responses were for anthropologists:
physical anthropologists 41%
cultural anthropologists 53%[106]
The figure for physical anthropologists at PhD granting departments was slightly higher, rising from 41% to 42%, with 50% agreeing. This survey, however, did not specify any particular definition of race (although it did clearly specify biological race within the species **** sapiens); it is difficult to say whether those who supported the statement thought of race in taxonomic or population terms.

The same survey, taken in 1999,[107] showed the following changing results for anthropologists:
physical anthropologists 69%
cultural anthropologists 80%


And this is among american anthropologists, the number of anthropologists who reject the idea of race would be far higher outside of the us.

Of course, in the objective sciences, such as Medicine, race IS a very important determinant of disease as well as reaction to various medicines and anesthesia.
As for anthropology, that is a surprisingly low number in the US, where Boasian anthropology reigns. Expect among more erudite anthropologists most to agree that there ARE races, as a simple 101 knowledge of Genetics and/or other hard sciences shows there most definitely ARE discernable differences and that race is real.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-13-2012, 03:48 PM
Of course, in actual sciences, such as Medicine, race IS a very important determinant of disease as well as reaction to various medicines and anesthesia.

That doesn't really have to do with race per se, but rather genetic lineage and evolutionary adaptation to specific environments.

wimble10
03-13-2012, 05:31 PM
Although unrelated to this discussion, someone mentioned Koellerer and I found this video of him getting lucky on a netcord:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOJ-S4kOSeI

SheDevil
03-13-2012, 08:14 PM
If the translation of what LLodra said is accurate, then the "apology" he issued also derserves a fine.

http://loveandaces.com/pro-tour/llodra-refers-to-fan-as-chinese-*****-and-maybe-apologizes/
:shock:

Nostradamus
03-13-2012, 08:22 PM
Racist because he is against Chinese people I guess.

i heard that in France, racism is common place there, even to this day. It is sad but this is what i have heard.

Bartelby
03-13-2012, 09:44 PM
This Llodra is certainly not backing down; and his remark is again about women and sex!!!

Llodra did speak to the Chinese news site SINA.com, in which he attempted to apologize. "My words were not aimed at China," Llodra said. "I love Chinese—I can totally make love with a Chinese girl."

slice bh compliment
03-13-2012, 10:06 PM
While that is just the right combination of cheesy and honest to get Llodra some fine Chinese trim, there is a chance that remark might just backfire on him.

We'll just have to see how this plays out.
;-)

Spin Doctor
03-13-2012, 10:10 PM
Heh. Did he really say that? Good idea to use humor to deflect the situation methinks.

Lemoned
03-13-2012, 10:11 PM
http://straightsets.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/target-of-llodras-racial-slur-says-a-fine-is-not-enough/?ref=tennis
Target of Llodra’s Racial Slur Says Fine Is Not Enough

Save for the chilly breeze that often blows through the desert air after sunset, it is hard to imagine a more perfect setting for tennis than mountain-lined Indian Wells, home of the BNP Paribas Open.

The popular non-Grand Slam tournament, which attracts tennis fans from much of the western half of North America, even sells out of general admission grounds passes for certain sessions.

Alex Lee Barlow, a tennis fan from Oakland, Calif., was one of the thousands who made the trip for the first weekend of the tournament. Roaming the grounds with her husband and brother Friday, Barlow found a seat in the third row of the stands by the south baseline on Court 8, to watch a match between Michael Llodra of France and Ernests Gulbis of Latvia.

“It was a great match, it was a beautiful day — the whole crowd was getting into it,” Barlow said of the first-round match, which she entered during the second set. “One of the awesome things about Indian Wells is the closeness to the actual game.”

But Barlow, who was cheering for Gulbis with what she says were innocuous cheers like “Come on, Ernie,” was brought far closer into the game than she wanted. She soon incurred the wrath of Llodra, 31, who had already expressed his frustration by swatting with his racket between points and muttering to ball boys.

Llodra’s first comments in Barlow’s direction came in French. They were reported to include “putain chinoise,” which translates roughly as “Chinese *****.”

“He was looking directly at me,” said Barlow, who is Korean-American. “He didn’t yell it particularly loudly. He was turned toward the baseline, toward us, and he looked right at me and said this comment.”

Llodra directed his anger toward Barlow’s section again moments later, after her cluster of pro-Gulbis fans sighed in disappointment when Gulbis hit a double fault.

“You’re crying now are you? Well, you should be crying,” Barlow quoted Llodra as saying. Llodra later called Barlow a Chinese, adding a profane adjective for emphasis.

Llodra went on to win the match, 6-3, 5-7, 7-6 (3). He later retired with a knee injury down, 1-4, in his second-round match Sunday against Jo-Wilfried Tsonga.

Barlow said that she initially did not want to make a big deal of the incident, but that her anger about what had happened grew in the hours after the match.

“I’m not going to let it ruin my day,” she said she had thought. “But then as the afternoon wore on, I became more and more angry about it. Something in my head just told me I can’t just pretend like it didn’t happen.”

Barlow was contacted by the tournament director, Steve Simon, who informed her of the fine and the formal reprimand, and told her that Llodra would call her from Simon’s office to give her a personal apology. The call was never made, and Simon told Barlow that attempts to persuade Llodra to apologize had been unsuccessful.

Llodra, who is ranked No. 41, was fined $2,500 for verbal abuse by the A.T.P. The amount of the fine was left to the discretion of the A.T.P. supervisor who had conducted an investigation into the incident.

The $2,500 fine amounts to less than 20 percent of the $12,725 Llodra earned for making the second round of the singles draw. He also earned roughly $3,800 for losing in the first round of the doubles competition.

Though there have been prior incidents of spectators shouting ethnic slurs at tennis players (notably toward Serena Williams in Miami in 2007 and the Romanian Victor Hanescu at Wimbledon in 2010), players turning on fans occurs considerably less frequently.

According to French reporters who interviewed him for L’Equipe, Llodra did not seem to understand why the remarks he made were any worse than any other sort of profanity.

Llodra did not make matters better for himself during an interview with a reporter from the Chinese news Web site SINA.com, in which the Frenchman attempted to apologize for his remarks.

“My words were not aimed at China,” Llodra began.

“I love Chinese — I can totally make love with a Chinese girl,” he added, before being cut off by the A.T.P. official monitoring the interview. The journalist, who took offense at the remark, said that he did not find Llodra’s apology sincere. He added that there had been a great deal of reaction to Llodra’s remarks on Chinese social media networks like Weibo.

Llodra did not speak to any English-language media at the tournament. His next scheduled tournament is the Sony Ericsson Open in Miami, which starts March 21.

“I would like the A.T.P. to come down very hard on him,” Barlow said. “I don’t know what the official term would be, but I would like some severe sanctions put on him.” Barlow suggested that Llodra should be barred from his next three tournaments.

“Just issuing a fine is not going to do it — it’s not going to stop him or anybody else,” she said. “The money doesn’t mean anything to him.”

Though a call from Llodra seems unlikely at this juncture, Barlow is prepared should it happen.

“If he wants to call me up, I’ve got what I’m going to say to him all written out,” she said “Is that going to make a difference to him? I don’t know. He’s a certain age, he’s been living a certain way with a certain mindset that obviously tells him that that type of behavior is O.K., and me telling him that it’s not — maybe it will give it a human face. Obviously he doesn’t see people with Asian faces as having anything in common with himself because he wouldn’t treat them that way, ”

Barlow added that she might mention the similar ages of her and Llodra’s children to appeal to his humanity.

“If he calls, great. If not, I’m not going to lose sleep over it. It’s really not worth that to me.”

Bartelby
03-13-2012, 10:28 PM
Barlow seems to be enjoying her moment of fame.

Lemoned
03-13-2012, 10:37 PM
Yep, because while Llodra's handling it so professionally, she is just overreacting and it's fun to be in her position?

Roddick33
03-13-2012, 10:46 PM
None of this is racist. We're all the human race.

:P

Bobby Jr
03-14-2012, 01:58 AM
“I love Chinese — I can totally make love with a Chinese girl,” he added, before being cut off by the A.T.P. official monitoring the interview.
That is comedy gold from Llodra. :lol:

Crisstti
03-14-2012, 08:34 AM
What an idiot :? He also obviously doesn't even think he did anything wrong.

It's racist because he associates the behaviour which he dislikes with a racial group, which is pretty ignorant and silly. It's the individual and her behaviour which he should be taking a disliking to not the racial group to which she belongs.

It would be like if a guy crashes into my car. I would never say "Damn blacks" or even think it because its the not the race that has anything to do him crashing into my car.

+1.

I am amazed that folks have so much difficulty with this concept. If you drag a person's race/ethnicity into a dispute having nothing to do with race in an effort to put them down, you are being racist.

Honestly. Do you think you can get into a dispute with somebody and toss out something like "Dirty Jew" and not have a problem?

It is not a defense that the person is actually the race or ethnicity that you selected. It's that you are bringing it up to disparage the person.

Just quoting this since it's such a clear explanation that many here seem to just miss.

If someone is bald and is sitting among people who have hair, I bet references to hairlessness is going to figure prominently in your insults if you think they warrant it, but does that mean you really have a thing about bald people?


It does. You are using it to put him down, hence you think being bald is something bad about someone...

Let's just replace Chinese with black of Jew and see how many then think it's racist (and it has absolutely nothing to do with whether the woman was really Chinese or not).

I don't know if most are aware of what happened with Liverpool's player Suarez for a very similar situation?.

To the point where they're overcompensating. Why on earth would you have a Black History Month and an International Women's Day if you actually thought blacks and women are the same as anybody else?

Because historically there has been, and there still is, discrimination against such groups.

stormholloway
03-14-2012, 10:28 AM
A rude Frenchy what a massive suprise.

Says the guy who probably never left his hometown.

tusharlovesrafa
03-14-2012, 10:29 AM
I think south american,north american,african,european and asian people are one of the most racist people on earth...Where as People from Mars and Venus are least racist.
I am planning to settle with my GF on mars and then we'll have FUN over there!!! Let the SEDUCTION begin..

stormholloway
03-14-2012, 10:58 AM
None of this is racist. We're all the human race.

:P

So because there's one human race means people can't be racist? Please reexamine your 'logic'.

LuckyR
03-14-2012, 11:43 AM
Um no, his job is to win tennis matches. Thats what keeps him on the tour.

The tournament is in the business of promoting sales. If what you say were true guys like Davydenko never would have had careers and guys like Agassi would have won every tournament the ever played in and be the GOAT.

Nice try though. Money does not control everything in this sport. They are sure trying though.

This oversimplification is like saying that a waiter's job is to take your order and deliver the food. Not really, his job is to make your dining experience as good as he can. Restaurants that don't make that clear rapidly go out of business in most large markets.

You are correct as to what the guys who pay the bills (the tournaments) are trying to do, but when you make the job of the guys with the $ more difficult, it is like pi55ing off the boss, you get dinged.

lbjames23
03-14-2012, 12:07 PM
I don't really understand the apologizing. By saying "putain Chinoise" or "f*cking Chinese" he is implying that whatever that individual was doing was consistent with what he perceives to be typical, negative behavior by Chinese people.

I know this is how you speak at home, but you can try for yourself to bring it up at an event at that scale. + the woman s not even chinese.

"putain français"

Claudius
03-14-2012, 12:15 PM
"I love China because I find their woman doable" What an ***.

norbac
03-14-2012, 12:20 PM
"I love China because I find their woman doable" What an ***.

Wow, Llodra's a pure doosh, isn't he?

Claudius
03-14-2012, 12:22 PM
Wow, Llodra's a pure doosh, isn't he?

Not exactly his words, but he basically said it.

Nathaniel_Near
03-14-2012, 03:20 PM
My Oh My!! You clearly misunderstood me.I am indian(wheatish/brown skin)..The bolded clearly specifies that indians and pakistanis have subject to immense humiliation in counrties such as UK,AUSTRALIA,US(where indians/pakistanis population is quite high).I have never passed any racist comment in my life nor ever made fun of any religion,caste or race.
And the example you are giving me is more of a western thinking of people,it's like,"Oh look at this guy he's got a long beard and looks asian...he might be muslim..what the heck he is doing here??". Specially after 2001 WTC incident,many muslims has been very unfairly targeted.:(..

How did I misunderstand you? :(

kimbahpnam
03-14-2012, 06:27 PM
NBA fines players 25K+ for criticizing refs (without slurs or profanity), and the ATP fines Llodra for $2,500......ATP's a joke.

Benhur
03-14-2012, 07:01 PM
I read that now, trying to fix things, he said: "My words were not meant against China. I love Chinese people. I can perfectly well make love to a Chinese woman." [«Mes paroles n'étaient pas dirigées contre la Chine. J'aime les Chinois, je peux parfaitement faire l'amour à une Chinoise.» http://www.lematin.ch/sports/tennis/llodra-pourrais-amour-chinoise/story/31674160

So first he calls her "putain de Chinoise," then he repeats it in English "F--ing Chinese". http://www.purepeople.com/article/michael-llodra-apres-ses-propos-outranciers-il-recidive-malgre-une-amende_a97529/1
And then he apologises by assuring us that he is capable of making love to Chinese women. Really, this guy needs some social skills, or something.

Bartelby
03-14-2012, 07:12 PM
Don't they get paid far in excess of your average tennis player?

I think he was fined about 20% of what he earned from the tournament.



NBA fines players 25K+ for criticizing refs (without slurs or profanity), and the ATP fines Llodra for $2,500......ATP's a joke.

kimbahpnam
03-14-2012, 07:15 PM
Don't they get paid far in excess of your average tennis player?

I think he was fined about 20% of what he earned from the tournament.

and what he said was about 500% more offensive than what an average nba player says criticizing a ref

Bartelby
03-14-2012, 07:16 PM
I think it could mean that being a racist doesn't refer to race as there is only one of them.

It's a remnant of nineteenth century race theory to think racism refers to races.



So because there's one human race means people can't be racist? Please reexamine your 'logic'.

Bartelby
03-14-2012, 07:19 PM
That would not be a rational penalty.

That would be a penalty in excess of 100k.




and what he said was about 500% more offensive than what an average nba player says criticizing a ref

AtomicForehand
03-14-2012, 07:19 PM
Wow, Llodra's a pure doosh, isn't he?

I was just about to make that exact same post. So disappointed to find out what he's really like. I *had* been a fan.

kimbahpnam
03-14-2012, 07:21 PM
That would not be a rational penalty.

That would be a penalty in excess of 100k.

sounds more rational than $2,500

Bartelby
03-14-2012, 07:25 PM
The overwhelming majority of the human race, and the overwhelming direction of the foreign policy of the governments of this world, is fundamentally xenophobic.

Making Llodra some sort of bouc-emissaire is ridiculous - he's been penalized and he's not going to change. Worry about more serious examples of this behaviour.

AtomicForehand
03-14-2012, 07:33 PM
Making Llodra some sort of bouc-emissaire is ridiculous - he's been penalized and he's not going to change. Worry about more serious examples of this behaviour.

Wrong.

All of the moral implications of Llodra's remarks aside, it is *very* bad business for the ATP to allow its employees to insult customers and offend the public. They should clamp down hard on this right from the start to send a strong message to the players and the public that this sort of thing won't be tolerated.

But of course, the ATP doesn't do this. A pretty morally compromised and weak leadership organization. Llodra sucks and so does the ATP.

Bartelby
03-14-2012, 07:44 PM
The ferocity of the reaction to Llodra's remarks is out of all proportion to the offence.

He was fined a reasonable sum and if he were fined anymore then there would have to be a full inquiry with lawyers, evidence.

And complete evidence rather than the kind of sketchy evidence that newsreports contain.

Direct your reformist zeal out into the world. The ATP is not going to make the world a better place. Start with your local government and ask it hard questions.

kimbahpnam
03-14-2012, 07:44 PM
Wrong.

All of the moral implications of Llodra's remarks aside, it is *very* bad business for the ATP to allow its employees to insult customers and offend the public. They should clamp down hard on this right from the start to send a strong message to the players and the public that this sort of thing won't be tolerated.

But of course, the ATP doesn't do this. A pretty morally compromised and weak leadership organization. Llodra sucks and so does the ATP.

+1

the fact that this was aimed towards a fan just makes it so much worse. Rex Ryan got fined 75K for saying "STFU" to a fan. stfu is nothing compared to what llodra said

markiev37
03-14-2012, 09:43 PM
Who cares......Get over it and move on

millicurie999
03-14-2012, 09:55 PM
Who cares......Get over it and move on

Would you feel the same if he called your mother "insert race here" CU:evil:T?

gavna
03-14-2012, 10:04 PM
Would you feel the same if he called your mother "insert race here" CU:evil:T?

But he didn't.....he was rude and vulger to a noisy fan, got fined, made a nice sarcastic apology. Who cares, move on. If your panties are that far out of shape send a letter to Lacoste and Wilson and tell them you will never buy their products as long as they endorse him and that you will push others to do the same.
If it was my wife who had been insulted like that she would have replied to him point blank that he could go F*** himself right then and there. So he's a jerk big deal - tennis full of them.

Bartelby
03-14-2012, 10:06 PM
The topic is somewhat exhausted.



Would you feel the same if he called your mother "insert race here" CU:evil:T?

TopFH
03-14-2012, 10:34 PM
"... whereas "Americans"does not." - 'American' isn't a race, it is merely a reference to a location (USA) where there is no one clear ethnic group which dominates as is the case in China. It's multi-ethnic.

Sorry, but "Americans" refer to people from America, not the United States. I'm an American too, you know. I just was not born in the USA.

markiev37
03-14-2012, 11:04 PM
Would you feel the same if he called your mother "insert race here" CU:evil:T?

No not really.........Get over it and get your panties out they're bundle

Seth
03-14-2012, 11:04 PM
But he didn't.....he was rude and vulger to a noisy fan, got fined, made a nice sarcastic apology. Who cares, move on. If your panties are that far out of shape send a letter to Lacoste and Wilson and tell them you will never buy their products as long as they endorse him and that you will push others to do the same.
If it was my wife who had been insulted like that she would have replied to him point blank that he could go F*** himself right then and there. So he's a jerk big deal - tennis full of them.

I love this. My wife would've done the same. Maybe because she's a Texan, too.

kimbahpnam
03-14-2012, 11:11 PM
No not really.........Get over it and get your panties out they're bundle

"...get your panties out they are bundle?"

lbjames23
03-15-2012, 08:56 AM
I don't really understand the apologizing. By saying "putain Chinoise" or "f*cking Chinese" he is implying that whatever that individual was doing was consistent with what he perceives to be typical, negative behavior by Chinese people.

same thing as americans killing afghan civilians and it sure is a normal act

lbjames23
03-15-2012, 08:58 AM
"...get your panties out they are bundle?"

dont even follow up on that, the guy makes no sense.
btw how do you like the purestorms so far ? what r the changes after you put in the silicon?

mandy01
03-15-2012, 09:00 AM
same thing as americans killing afghan civilians and it sure is a normal act

lmao :lol:

mandy01
03-15-2012, 09:01 AM
"I love China because I find their woman doable" What an ***.What. A. Jerk.

mandy01
03-15-2012, 09:03 AM
I read that now, trying to fix things, he said: "My words were not meant against China. I love Chinese people. I can perfectly well make love to a Chinese woman." [«Mes paroles n'étaient pas dirigées contre la Chine. J'aime les Chinois, je peux parfaitement faire l'amour à une Chinoise.» http://www.lematin.ch/sports/tennis/llodra-pourrais-amour-chinoise/story/31674160

So first he calls her "putain de Chinoise," then he repeats it in English "F--ing Chinese". http://www.purepeople.com/article/michael-llodra-apres-ses-propos-outranciers-il-recidive-malgre-une-amende_a97529/1
And then he apologises by assuring us that he is capable of making love to Chinese women. Really, this guy needs some social skills, or something.

He's just a cheap *****.

SLD76
03-15-2012, 09:05 AM
He's just a cheap *****.

hmmm...where is the hue and cry for llodra to be banned from IW or suspended?

what he did is far worse than what Serena did at the USO this year.

He was apparently abusive to ballboys and linespeople as well.

Just saying.....

Manus Domini
03-15-2012, 09:06 AM
'My black friend' is a really safe driver.
He is 'articulate', too.

I am 'tolerant'.

^I am kidding ... Brothers love it when you say those things.


I know you were kidding, and weren't meaning to refer to a specific color (which is different from race, anyway). I was kidding, too :)

mandy01
03-15-2012, 09:12 AM
hmmm...where is the hue and cry for llodra to be banned from IW or suspended?

what he did is far worse than what Serena did at the USO this year.

He was apparently abusive to ballboys and linespeople as well.

Just saying.....They SHOULD ban him. He would thoroughly deserve it

Crisstti
03-15-2012, 10:42 AM
Sorry, but "Americans" refer to people from America, not the United States. I'm an American too, you know. I just was not born in the USA.

http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LKIOFmxLaG4/SWoLYBJ55dI/AAAAAAAACnA/BmTYtRpCB4g/s400/american+continent.jpg&sa=X&ei=ECpiT9myEMrAtwfNisnkBw&ved=0CAwQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHN1_nepYg8WOPRELNpSKruOLmmhQ

hmmm...where is the hue and cry for llodra to be banned from IW or suspended?

what he did is far worse than what Serena did at the USO this year.

He was apparently abusive to ballboys and linespeople as well.

Just saying.....

Yeah, people are just like "get over it, no big deal".

Crisstti
03-15-2012, 10:51 AM
The ferocity of the reaction to Llodra's remarks is out of all proportion to the offence.

He was fined a reasonable sum and if he were fined anymore then there would have to be a full inquiry with lawyers, evidence.

And complete evidence rather than the kind of sketchy evidence that newsreports contain.

Direct your reformist zeal out into the world. The ATP is not going to make the world a better place. Start with your local government and ask it hard questions.

It really isn't. Plus, "ferocity" of the reaction?, would you mind pointing out just where have you seen that?.

The sum he was fined is not at all reasonable. It's more of a joke.

And what he did is OK because lots of other people are racist and/or xenophobic too?. Really?.

It's tackling down this kinds of minor manifestations of the problem what makes it clear that the behaviour is not acceptable and it helps to stop the more serious examples of it.

Bartelby
03-15-2012, 11:13 AM
1. Ferocity is the right word given the minor nature of the offence.

2. The sum was around 20% of his earnings which is reasonable.

3. You've completely missed the misogynistic nature of his remarks as has everyone who has commented.

4. I did not say what he said is ok. I said there were more serious issues of racism in the world to tackle.

5. I don't believe in zero tolerance policing as it is racist in practice.

6. It's best to keep politics and sport separate, which is not an opinion people talking endlessly about the Llodra outrage share.

cknobman
03-15-2012, 11:14 AM
He's just a cheap *****.

Racist!!!!! Your insinuating Chinese women are cheap prostitutes.

Bartelby
03-15-2012, 12:09 PM
The remarks that the Chinese agency quotes Llodra as saying have been partially denied by him.

His words were, according to him, as follows:

Je suis allé présenter mes excuses aux Chinois par l'intermédiaire de ce journaliste, mais on s'est mal compris tous les deux. Je ne lui ai pas dit ce qu'il a rapporté. Je lui ai dit: "Qu'est ce qu'il faut que je fasse pour vous prouver que je ne suis pas raciste? Il faut que je fasse l'amour à une Chinoise?" Ce n'était pas péjoratif, c'était une forme de respect."

His obviously annoyed response to a question as to whether or not he was a racist was:

What do I have to do to prove to you I am not a racist?

Make love to a Chinese woman!

This was what the Chinese agency has him saying:

"I love Chinese — I can totally make love with a Chinese girl."

On the face of it, Llodra's account sounds more plausible. The Llodra incident demonstrates the perils of kangaroo courts based on partial and inaccurate reporting.

lbjames23
03-15-2012, 01:02 PM
The remarks that the Chinese agency quotes Llodra as saying have been partially denied by him.

His words were, according to him, as follows:

Je suis allé présenter mes excuses aux Chinois par l'intermédiaire de ce journaliste, mais on s'est mal compris tous les deux. Je ne lui ai pas dit ce qu'il a rapporté. Je lui ai dit: "Qu'est ce qu'il faut que je fasse pour vous prouver que je ne suis pas raciste? Il faut que je fasse l'amour à une Chinoise?" Ce n'était pas péjoratif, c'était une forme de respect."

His obviously annoyed response to a question as to whether or not he was a racist was:

What do I have to do to prove to you I am not a racist?


Make love to a Chinese woman!

This was what the Chinese agency has him saying:

"I love Chinese — I can totally make love with a Chinese girl."

On the face of it, Llodra's account sounds more plausible. The Llodra incident demonstrates the perils of kangaroo courts based on partial and inaccurate reporting.

is it me or his apology makes it even worse. and he don stand a chance for getting an Asian woman. yeah, but sure thing he s gonna be boooed like crazy if he ever goes to that shanghai master 1000 again.

Bartelby
03-15-2012, 01:41 PM
Llodra doesn't want any kind of woman other than his wife.

lbjames23
03-15-2012, 01:47 PM
Llodra doesn't want any kind of woman other than his wife.

you have no idea about french do you.

jackson vile
03-15-2012, 03:41 PM
Some of these French people seem to be extremely angry and eager to blame everything and anything on someone.

Bartelby
03-15-2012, 07:14 PM
You're the one who has demonstrated no idea of French.

I'm open to an alternative understanding of what he claims to have said.

Until you produce one you're not worth the time of day.



you have no idea about french do you.

rommil
03-15-2012, 07:21 PM
Some of these French people seem to be extremely angry and eager to blame everything and anything on someone.

That makes you one then:)

tlm
03-15-2012, 07:37 PM
Who cares he did not say anything that bad, you ever notice it is only racism when a white guy says something like this.

lbjames23
03-16-2012, 08:00 AM
no you are the one.
and who do you think you are to be "open to an alternative understanding of what he claims to have said" ?? you think anyone d care ?
you r just a waste of time.
You're the one who has demonstrated no idea of French.

I'm open to an alternative understanding of what he claims to have said.

Until you produce one you're not worth the time of day.

Bartelby
03-16-2012, 08:09 AM
There's another translation in the thread on Llodra's apology so you best consult it in order to write in an informed manner.



no you are the one.
and who do you think you are to be "open to an alternative understanding of what he claims to have said" ?? you think anyone d care ?
you r just a waste of time.

Crisstti
03-16-2012, 12:57 PM
1. Ferocity is the right word given the minor nature of the offence.

It was racism. Not exactly a minor thing. Oh, and sexism too. But no big deal, who cares, right?.

2. The sum was around 20% of his earnings which is reasonable.

3. You've completely missed the misogynistic nature of his remarks as has everyone who has commented.

4. I did not say what he said is ok. I said there were more serious issues of racism in the world to tackle.

And I answered to that already. Look above.

5. I don't believe in zero tolerance policing as it is racist in practice.

How?.

6. It's best to keep politics and sport separate, which is not an opinion people talking endlessly about the Llodra outrage share.

"Politics". Nice PC language. I guess all racism and sexism should just be tolerated then, since we shouldn't mix sports and politics...

lbjames23
03-16-2012, 01:38 PM
So you do not understand french (well, it s ok), but your main problem is that you pretend to not understand ENGLISH !!!
You can put all the big words in your bag now. people like you have no shame.
Being Jewish or American has nothing to do with race.

Llodra said nothing equivalent to the expression you quote.

Indeed, we have little certain evidence of what he did say.

What little 'evidence' there is indicates misogyny.

lbjames23
03-16-2012, 01:45 PM
+1.

I am amazed that folks have so much difficulty with this concept. If you drag a person's race/ethnicity into a dispute having nothing to do with race in an effort to put them down, you are being racist.

Honestly. Do you think you can get into a dispute with somebody and toss out something like "Dirty Jew" and not have a problem?

It is not a defense that the person is actually the race or ethnicity that you selected. It's that you are bringing it up to disparage the person.

Here s a candid explaination we be been looking for. I know I d not feel right if I m called "w*ite tr***" by any body.

lbjames23
03-16-2012, 01:49 PM
That makes you one then:)

oh please dont make me one of em, no one wants to be french and u no it.

Princeofwails
03-18-2012, 04:53 PM
What really gets me is how self-centered someone and others like him can be. I would consider it a blessing to be able to enjoy the pro life and make cash while having all that fun. Let him struggle to find a real job and he'll see real fast what a gift he has and is crapping all of it and everyone in his way.

Terre Battu
03-18-2012, 11:24 PM
I'm not sure what the circumstances were but any fan acting like a jack ***, no matter what color they are deserve verbal abuse.

lbjames23
03-19-2012, 09:22 AM
I'm not sure what the circumstances were but any fan acting like a jack ***, no matter what color they are deserve verbal abuse.

if you r not sure what went on during that match, then you should not put your pointless comments here.