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View Full Version : What makes Murray's game better for fast HC and Nole's for slow HC


kragster
03-14-2012, 02:46 PM
To start off I must say both these players are excellent on both types of HC. Djokovic has won USO and reached multiple finals, won at Paris and reached the Cincy finals multiple times. Murray has won Miami, reached multiple AO finals and IW finals. Clearly Nole is no slouch on fast HC and Murray is no slouch on slow HC.

But the popular opinion seems to be that slow HC is better for Nole and fast HC better for Murray. Both these players are fairly alike in that they rely a lot on movement and their excellent backhand. Can someone break down what makes one surface better for Nole and the other better for Murray?

jackson vile
03-14-2012, 02:49 PM
It is total bull****, Nole plays just as well on slow courts as he does fast. He has proven this against both Nadal and Federer.

Also, Murray played one of his best matches against Novak at the AO this year.

SLD76
03-14-2012, 02:51 PM
To start off I must say both these players are excellent on both types of HC. Djokovic has won USO and reached multiple finals, won at Paris and reached the Cincy finals multiple times. Murray has won Miami, reached multiple AO finals and IW finals. Clearly Nole is no slouch on fast HC and Murray is no slouch on slow HC.

But the popular opinion seems to be that slow HC is better for Nole and fast HC better for Murray. Both these players are fairly alike in that they rely a lot on movement and their excellent backhand. Can someone break down what makes one surface better for Nole and the other better for Murray?

I think for one, the serve:

murray's serve is helped on the faster court, whereas djoker has less time to react to the serve.

advantage murray.

also, it just seemed that....in dubai, murray's ball penetrated thru the court more while djoker's ball was more spinny. he really struggled to muscle up and blast thru the ball where it seemed like murray had easier power.

i guess murray hits a bit flatter than djoker?

seattle_1hander
03-14-2012, 02:54 PM
Murray absorbs and uses pace, he has trouble generating it on slow courts

jackson vile
03-14-2012, 02:54 PM
I think for one, the serve:

murray's serve is helped on the faster court, whereas djoker has less time to react to the serve.

advantage murray.

also, it just seemed that....in dubai, murray's ball penetrated thru the court more while djoker's ball was more spinny. he really struggled to muscle up and blast thru the ball where it seemed like murray had easier power.

i guess murray hits a bit flatter than djoker?



What was the first serve percentage for Murray at Dubai?

Laurie
03-14-2012, 03:08 PM
To start off I must say both these players are excellent on both types of HC. Djokovic has won USO and reached multiple finals, won at Paris and reached the Cincy finals multiple times. Murray has won Miami, reached multiple AO finals and IW finals. Clearly Nole is no slouch on fast HC and Murray is no slouch on slow HC.

But the popular opinion seems to be that slow HC is better for Nole and fast HC better for Murray. Both these players are fairly alike in that they rely a lot on movement and their excellent backhand. Can someone break down what makes one surface better for Nole and the other better for Murray?

You ask a very interesting question because by your comments, slower hardcourts have been more fruitful for Murray.

I suppose there can be lots of theories swirling around in our heads, but it is all relative and it is what these chaps feel comfortable on that counts.

A slower court will give Murray that bit extra time to defend and line up his shots. Although that did him no good against Federer in the 2010 Aussie final. A faster court can also help a counterpuncher like Murray, because their shots will have more penetration - like Hewitt, he preferred fast courts to slower ones for that reason.

Djokovic has no problem on either type of court because his serve and forehand is more reliable, plus he has the movement to back it up.

There is one big caveat to all this, yes Murray has won titles in Miami etc. But due to the fact finals are just best of 3 sets on the tour, I'm not getting a proper gauge of how he would do in a best of 5 set final at that level. I still feel the ATP have made a mistake on that front.

SLD76
03-14-2012, 06:52 PM
Murray absorbs and uses pace, he has trouble generating it on slow courts

I think this...

DeShaun
03-14-2012, 06:57 PM
Murray flattens his forehand better and has superior foot speed in a straight line.
Novak seems to have more bounce in his legs though.

Backhanded Compliment
03-14-2012, 07:05 PM
Depends on which player they are facing and how well each is serving.

Right now if both are serving well and facing each other I give the edge to Nole.

If Murray is serving in the zone on a fast courts then he has the advantage.

They match up well with each other but if Murray continues to improve his serve, forehand and gets to the net a bit more (even at the french) he's going to become a big problem.

If Nole improves his volley and a little faster first serve for big points then Nole is going to win a grand slam. Scary. Everybody is always improving (till a pro gets to be 29).

Mainad
03-14-2012, 07:08 PM
There is one big caveat to all this, yes Murray has won titles in Miami etc. But due to the fact finals are just best of 3 sets on the tour, I'm not getting a proper gauge of how he would do in a best of 5 set final at that level. I still feel the ATP have made a mistake on that front.

Of the current top players, I think only Federer and Nadal have ever played best of 5 in a Masters final. They all converted to best of 3 about 5 years ago.

Rhino
03-15-2012, 03:25 AM
Funny that of the six times Murray has played Miami, he's failed to win a single match four times.
And yet he's capable of winning it.
The guy is so hot and cold. He'll probably eventually win a grand slam when nobody expects it anymore and he's on the verge of retirement like Ivanisevic.

batz
03-15-2012, 04:08 AM
Funny that of the six times Murray has played Miami, he's failed to win a single match four times.
And yet he's capable of winning it.
The guy is so hot and cold. He'll probably eventually win a grand slam when nobody expects it anymore and he's on the verge of retirement like Ivanisevic.

:-)

Specifically - Roland Garros

Lemoned
03-15-2012, 04:54 AM
Of the current top players, I think only Federer and Nadal have ever played best of 5 in a Masters final. They all converted to best of 3 about 5 years ago.
ATP Masters Series Miami, 2007
Final Novak Djokovic def. Guillermo Canas 6-3, 6-2, 6-4 ;)

I believe that was the last Bo5 Masters final.

marcub
03-15-2012, 05:03 AM
To start off I must say both these players are excellent on both types of HC. Djokovic has won USO and reached multiple finals, won at Paris and reached the Cincy finals multiple times. Murray has won Miami, reached multiple AO finals and IW finals. Clearly Nole is no slouch on fast HC and Murray is no slouch on slow HC.

But the popular opinion seems to be that slow HC is better for Nole and fast HC better for Murray. Both these players are fairly alike in that they rely a lot on movement and their excellent backhand. Can someone break down what makes one surface better for Nole and the other better for Murray?

It's probably tv hype more than anything. Djoker is simply in another league vs Murray.

Murrayfan31
03-15-2012, 05:07 AM
They are both great on any type of hardcourt. It's only clay where Murray has some trouble due to the movement and untrue bounces. A surfaces for pigs tbh. But speed makes no difference for Murray. If anything he might actually prefer slower hardcourts. He definitely doesn't care that much for indoors.

cknobman
03-15-2012, 06:55 AM
Murray absorbs and uses pace, he has trouble generating it on slow courts

^ /thread .

Mainad
03-15-2012, 07:24 AM
It's probably tv hype more than anything. Djoker is simply in another league vs Murray.

The H2H is currently 7-5 to Djokovic. Djokovic leads 2-0 on clay, while they are 5-5 on HC.
They have never met on grass. Of the 4 finals they have played (1 Slam and 3 Masters), Djokovic won the Slam, Murray won all the Masters. Murray also won their most recent meeting, last month in Dubai.

So hardly in a different league in matches played against each other although, results wise, Djokovic is of course a multi-Slam winner unlike Murray.

Mainad
03-15-2012, 07:29 AM
ATP Masters Series Miami, 2007
Final Novak Djokovic def. Guillermo Canas 6-3, 6-2, 6-4 ;)

I believe that was the last Bo5 Masters final.

Thanks for that. I do wonder why they can't make at least the finals best of five like they used to.

Evan77
03-15-2012, 08:38 AM
first of all I love both players but Murray is simply not as good as Novak. yeah, sure he won some matches against Nole (who was trying to find his serve etc). yeah, he beat Djokovic in Dubai, big deal.

Murray has to show up at slams and he seems to be unable to do it. again I love the guy but I wouldn't even put him in the same sentence with Djokovic.

yellowoctopus
03-15-2012, 09:12 AM
No love for Coach Lendl?

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2012/1/9/1326101585469/Ivan-Lendl-and-Andy-Murra-007.jpg

celoft
03-15-2012, 09:20 AM
:-)

Specifically - Roland Garros

:lol:............................................. .......

decades
03-15-2012, 09:23 AM
what a positively tantalizing question!

Fedex
03-15-2012, 09:53 AM
It is total bull****, Nole plays just as well on slow courts as he does fast. He has proven this against both Nadal and Federer.

Also, Murray played one of his best matches against Novak at the AO this year.

It's probably tv hype more than anything. Djoker is simply in another league vs Murray.

It's tv hype that Murray's two victories over Djokovic in the past year have come on fast hard court?
Those two victories sound like facts to me.
And no coincidence that Murray recently gave Nadal a 6-0 beating in the final set of the Tokyo final. What surface - fast hardcourt.
Nadal said Murray was unplayable.
And the year before Murray beats Federer 6-3 6-2 in the Shanghai final. Surface. You guessed it fast hardcourt.
And in Toronto 6 months earlier he straight sets Nadal and Federer back to back. What surface. Fast hardcourt.
Shame for Murray that no Slams are played on this surface.

marcub
03-15-2012, 10:45 AM
The H2H is currently 7-5 to Djokovic. Djokovic leads 2-0 on clay, while they are 5-5 on HC.
They have never met on grass. Of the 4 finals they have played (1 Slam and 3 Masters), Djokovic won the Slam, Murray won all the Masters. Murray also won their most recent meeting, last month in Dubai.

So hardly in a different league in matches played against each other although, results wise, Djokovic is of course a multi-Slam winner unlike Murray.

Anything before Djoker 2.0 is hardly relevant at this point. I don't know what their h2h is over the last 12 mo - I would guess it's not gentle to Murray.

marcub
03-15-2012, 10:48 AM
It's tv hype that Murray's two victories over Djokovic in the past year have come on fast hard court?
Those two victories sound like facts to me.
And no coincidence that Murray recently gave Nadal a 6-0 beating in the final set of the Tokyo final. What surface - fast hardcourt.
Nadal said Murray was unplayable.
And the year before Murray beats Federer 6-3 6-2 in the Shanghai final. Surface. You guessed it fast hardcourt.
And in Toronto 6 months earlier he straight sets Nadal and Federer back to back. What surface. Fast hardcourt.
Shame for Murray that no Slams are played on this surface.

You may be right. I do believe however that most things about Murray - good or bad - are oevrhyped by the British media.

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-15-2012, 10:55 AM
Murray absorbs and uses pace, he has trouble generating it on slow courts

I agree, but I feel it's also a confidence thing. Murray can rip shots off both wings, but it's much harder to hit through the slower courts that dominate the tour today. On fast, he probably feels safer hitting harder.

marcub
03-15-2012, 10:57 AM
Murray absorbs and uses pace, he has trouble generating it on slow courts

I can buy that.

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-15-2012, 10:57 AM
It's tv hype that Murray's two victories over Djokovic in the past year have come on fast hard court?
Those two victories sound like facts to me.
And no coincidence that Murray recently gave Nadal a 6-0 beating in the final set of the Tokyo final. What surface - fast hardcourt.
Nadal said Murray was unplayable.
And the year before Murray beats Federer 6-3 6-2 in the Shanghai final. Surface. You guessed it fast hardcourt.
And in Toronto 6 months earlier he straight sets Nadal and Federer back to back. What surface. Fast hardcourt.
Shame for Murray that no Slams are played on this surface.

Toronto is not fast hard court. It might be faster than other hard courts like IW and Miami, but it certainly isn't fast.

Fedex
03-15-2012, 11:10 AM
Anything before Djoker 2.0 is hardly relevant at this point. I don't know what their h2h is over the last 12 mo - I would guess it's not gentle to Murray.

Its 2-2. Both Murray's victories were on fast hard court.
His two defeats were at the AO and Rome clay.
He still played well in both those defeats. I mean, he's still a great player on slow but he has a definite edge on fast.

marcub
03-15-2012, 11:15 AM
Its 2-2. Both Murray's victories were on fast hard court.
His two defeats were at the AO and Rome clay.
He still played well in both those defeats. I mean, he's still a great player on slow but he has a definite edge on fast.

There was an explanation above that I liked - about Murray absorbing more power on fast courts.

The 2-2 just goes to show you how misleading the h2h can be. No one in their right mind would put Djoker 2.0 in the same league with Murray, yet they're tied over the last 12 mo.

Fedex
03-15-2012, 11:21 AM
There was an explanation above that I liked - about Murray absorbing more power on fast courts.

The 2-2 just goes to show you how misleading the h2h can be. No one in their right mind would put Djoker 2.0 in the same league with Murray, yet they're tied over the last 12 mo.

And Murray nearly beat him at the AO and was one service game away from beating Djokovic in Rome. It could have been 4-0 Murray!
Remember Murray has made the final and semis of the last 5 slams.
I think Murray is in the same league, just a few places lower down.

marcub
03-15-2012, 11:22 AM
And Murray nearly beat him at the AO and was one service game away from beating Djokovic in Rome. It could have been 4-0 Murray!
Remember Murray has made the final and semis of the last 5 slams.
I think Murray is in the same league, just a few places lower down.

Not sure you can have it both ways :)

kragster
03-15-2012, 11:27 AM
And Murray nearly beat him at the AO and was one service game away from beating Djokovic in Rome. It could have been 4-0 Murray!
Remember Murray has made the final and semis of the last 5 slams.
I think Murray is in the same league, just a few places lower down.

Not sure you can have it both ways :)

On any given day I think Murray can play just as well as Nole. However to match Nole's consistency is a whole other discussion. I mean Murray was in the finals of Dubai and then gets knocked out first round in IW!

Fedex
03-15-2012, 11:28 AM
Ha ha yes but basically I think Murray better than Djokovic on fast hard.
Djokovic better than Murray on everything else.

Fedex
03-15-2012, 11:31 AM
[QUOTE=marcub;6394308]

On any given day I think Murray can play just as well as Nole. However to match Nole's consistency is a whole other discussion. I mean Murray was in the finals of Dubai and then gets knocked out first round in IW!

This is another way of looking at it.

kaku
03-15-2012, 11:41 AM
Murray is 2-3 against Djokovic since "Djokovic 2.0" surfaced. His two victories have come on relatively fast courts, Cincinatti and Dubai, but he has come close on slower courts, such as Rome and the AO. Djoker is no slouch on fast HC either, winning the USO last year, and beating one of the best USO players, Federer, back to back years.

jackson vile
03-15-2012, 11:47 AM
Murray is 2-3 against Djokovic since "Djokovic 2.0" surfaced. His two victories have come on relatively fast courts, Cincinatti and Dubai, but he has come close on slower courts, such as Rome and the AO. Djoker is no slouch on fast HC either, winning the USO last year, and beating one of the best USO players, Federer, back to back years.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa331/jacksonvile/topgun.gif

kragster
03-15-2012, 11:51 AM
[QUOTE=kragster;6394314]

This is another way of looking at it.

Lol, somehow you quoted me but with marcubs name


Edit - Lol hilarious, now I quoted you but with my name! Basically something got messed up in the quotes. I guess an extra identifier got in.

Fedex
03-15-2012, 12:21 PM
[QUOTE=Fedex;6394322]

Lol, somehow you quoted me but with marcubs name


Edit - Lol hilarious, now I quoted you but with my name! Basically something got messed up in the quotes. I guess an extra identifier got in.

It's a total head mess. Don't know who's saying what anymore!

Mainad
03-15-2012, 12:49 PM
Anything before Djoker 2.0 is hardly relevant at this point. I don't know what their h2h is over the last 12 mo - I would guess it's not gentle to Murray.

Over the last 12 months, they are 2-2.

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-15-2012, 12:49 PM
[QUOTE=Biscuitmcgriddleson;6394380]

It's a total head mess. Don't know who's saying what anymore!



It's a total head mess. Don't know who's saying what anymore!


Somehow the additional name of a previous quoter got tangled up. If you get rid of the person who you're not trying to quote it should come out alright.

Fedex
03-15-2012, 01:10 PM
And Murray nearly beat him at the AO and was one service game away from beating Djokovic in Rome. It could have been 4-0 Murray!
Remember Murray has made the final and semis of the last 5 slams.
I think Murray is in the same league, just a few places lower down.

Not sure you can have it both ways :)


It all went Pete Tong at post number 32.
The above is what Marcub posted.
I said everything apart from Not sure you can have it both ways :)
Marcub said that somehow mixing quotes from me and him under my name...

Fedex
03-15-2012, 01:15 PM
[QUOTE=Fedex;6394451]




Somehow the additional name of a previous quoter got tangled up. If you get rid of the person who you're not trying to quote it should come out alright.

And it gets really mixed up when people start quoting the mis quotes then someone quotes people quoting the mis quotes.
See above quote.

Cup8489
03-15-2012, 01:19 PM
Murray has done better on slow HCs...

2 AO finals, 1 semi in the last three years. Only 1 USO final, one 2 (?) titles at Canada I think, and 1 at Miami.

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-15-2012, 01:24 PM
And it gets really mixed up when people start quoting the mis quotes then someone quotes people quoting the mis quotes.
See above quote.

There we go, should be perfect from now on :)

I was just illustrating how the extra one at the top would lead to a misquote because it was just text rather than being a full quote with the [/QUOTE]



[QUOTE=Biscuitmcgriddleson;6394561]
Whacky stuff