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Chopin
03-17-2012, 06:16 PM
Ladies & Gentlemen,

I was quite, quite happy when Federer aced Nadal after the rain delay and sent Nadal and his time-wasting ways packing.

Look, I've played competitive tennis (USTA juniors, coached college tennis), and taking a bathroom break during a set is something that a junior player does. If you have to use the bathroom, you do it after the set. Given Nadal's history of injury timeouts and slow play, what are we to think when Nadal takes a bathroom break down 5-4 in the second set as the rains steadily increases in intensity?

While Nadal is a great champion, his engages in gamesmanship, and I, along with countless other tennis fans, call for the umpires to enforce the rule which state that a player shall take no more than 25 seconds between points.

Best,
Chopin

JohnnyCracker
03-17-2012, 06:20 PM
were you surprise by that bathroom break? :)

DjokovicForTheWin
03-17-2012, 06:21 PM
100% agree. Nadal is just pathetic.

drakulie
03-17-2012, 06:22 PM
Nadal is a cheat, and bad sport. Nothing new. Only thing surprising is the weak chair umps not putting an end to it.

by the way, 5 star thread! :)

ChanceEncounter
03-17-2012, 06:22 PM
What Nadal does is fine. The blame goes for the umpires and tennis associations for not enforcing their own rules. None of the players have any obligation to uphold the rules of some hegemony if they aren't called for violating them.

Atherton2003
03-17-2012, 06:23 PM
Excuse me, but I'd rather not see a player pee or crap in their pants.

phnx90
03-17-2012, 06:24 PM
Doesn't Roger take bathroom breaks in the middle of sets too?

purple-n-gold
03-17-2012, 06:25 PM
justice served #2nite

Seany
03-17-2012, 06:27 PM
Not only that...did you see the way he was looking at the umpire on match point, you could read him so easily.

"Pleaaaassseee umpire stop the match, because it hurts my ego so much to lose to this old man, and perhaps this completely unnecessary break will make him choke, because I know I can't beat him when he plays like this !! "

DjokovicForTheWin
03-17-2012, 06:27 PM
Doesn't Roger take bathroom breaks in the middle of sets too?

Yeah so often that you only have that one incident on your mind :)

MAX PLY
03-17-2012, 06:28 PM
Excuse me, but I'd rather not see a player pee or crap in their pants.

The way Roger was beating him, Nadal had already crapped his pants--he took the break to empty them.

Seriously, a punk move by Rafa--nice to see Fed put him away like he should have several times before.

Hood_Man
03-17-2012, 06:28 PM
Was the bathroom break really that long? He seemed to come back pretty quickly I thought.

Atherton2003
03-17-2012, 06:29 PM
How the heck can anyone know if he had to go or not? Honestly, I don't understand people complaining about the bathroom break. When nature calls, you can't hold it in. He didn't take that long and came right back out with no time delay. You think it's easy to keep playing if you have to do a #1?

rommil
03-17-2012, 06:36 PM
Rafa wanted to check what the TT peoples are writing.

abmk
03-17-2012, 06:38 PM
Doesn't Roger take bathroom breaks in the middle of sets too?

referring to AO 2010 QF vs davydenko ? It was after set 1 was over , not in the middle of the set ....

phnx90
03-17-2012, 06:39 PM
Yeah so often that you only have that one incident on your mind :)
Didn't occur to me that Rafa took bathroom breaks habitually. MTOs though, yeah, sure.

How the heck can anyone know if he had to go or not? Honestly, I don't understand people complaining about the bathroom break. When nature calls, you can't hold it in. He didn't take that long and came right back out with no time delay. You think it's easy to keep playing if you have to do a #1?
These people also think they know tennis better than Rafa/Roger themselves; no surprise if they think that Rafa does everything on purpose, which should come as rather contradictory since they also assert that Rafa's as dumb as a rock. Next up: aliens built the pyramids, the US government faked the moon landing and set up 9/11.

rommil
03-17-2012, 06:41 PM
referring to AO 2010 QF vs davydenko ? It was after set 1 was over , not in the middle of the set ....

No you are wrong. It was when Davydenko was about to second serve( just give them something to work with, abmk:)

MichaelNadal
03-17-2012, 06:42 PM
Was the bathroom break really that long? He seemed to come back pretty quickly I thought.

Do you know how anti-Nadal this board is? This is just another lynch mob party.

drakulie
03-17-2012, 06:44 PM
How the heck can anyone know if he had to go or not? Honestly, I don't understand people complaining about the bathroom break. When nature calls, you can't hold it in. He didn't take that long and came right back out with no time delay. You think it's easy to keep playing if you have to do a #1?

all of a sudden when the other guy is about to serve, the urge to go PP hit him? don't tell me he hasn't been toliet trained, which would explain all the butt-picking. Fact is, if he had to go when he called for the break, he must have already been feeling the urge before he served, or has he not learned to hold it?????? like the rest of the human polulation once toilet trained.


http://images.betterworldbooks.com/096/Mommy-I-Have-to-Go-Potty-9780965047715.jpg

Atherton2003
03-17-2012, 06:50 PM
Who knows if he had to take a pee or not. Maybe he has a bladder problem. It is very difficult to hold it when the urge suddenly hits. He did not take long, nor did it delay the game in any way - so let's move on from this senseless topic.

canuckfan
03-17-2012, 06:50 PM
The bathroom break at 4-5 was a disgrace. Nadal's history with this behavior is crystal clear, he consistently does it before his opponent's serve and not his own. It's an embarassment to the game. Any fan who doesn't see it is the kind of player who would do the same thing in a match. Chopin, I'm with you on this one. There are several great things about nadal's game but the gamesmanship is terrible.

The ITF needs to rewrite the rule so any break (injury, bathroom, whatever) must be taken before a player's own serve, not the serve of the opponent. If you're not fit enough to last one more game until your own serve, it's your own fault and you should have to forfeit one game. Then none of this BS would be possible.

Atherton2003
03-17-2012, 06:52 PM
Fact is, when we all become pro tennis players and have the urge to take a pee and have to somehow continue on without being allowed to relieve oneself, then we can all talk....until then, I say Rafa's bathroom break was acceptable and it in no way delayed the game.

Atherton2003
03-17-2012, 06:54 PM
why do men pee on trees or wherever they can in public? Do you expect them to wait to get to a bathroom? Sometimes it is quite simply, not possible. Men should know it and understand that nature calls and when it does, you often can't wait. Let's please move on from this inane topic.

drakulie
03-17-2012, 06:55 PM
Who knows if he had to take a pee or not. Maybe he has a bladder problem. It is very difficult to hold it when the urge suddenly hits. He did not take long, nor did it delay the game in any way - so let's move on from this senseless topic.

http://www.theincontinencestore.com/members/999468/uploaded/Depend_Protective_Underwear-sm.JPG

rommil
03-17-2012, 06:57 PM
http://www.theincontinencestore.com/members/999468/uploaded/Depend_Protective_Underwear-sm.JPG

Nadal only can use the 10 count....... 16 is Federer's:)

Atherton2003
03-17-2012, 06:57 PM
LOL...yes, Fed makes sure he wears his Depends.

drakulie
03-17-2012, 07:00 PM
Nadal only can use the 10 count....... 16 is Federer's:)


Good one!! :)

Who would have known after all this time, that rafa isn't toilet trained. I love all these new excuses.

Atherton2003
03-17-2012, 07:02 PM
How does one know that Fed wasn't carry around a crap in his pants?

Atherton2003
03-17-2012, 07:05 PM
Generally, men who don't like Nadal are jealous of his good looks and nice physique.

mandy01
03-17-2012, 07:08 PM
Doesn't Roger take bathroom breaks in the middle of sets too?
yes, but there's a bigger break between two sets .

drakulie
03-17-2012, 07:08 PM
How does one know that Fed wasn't carry around a crap in his pants?

he was, but unlike Nadal,,,, is toilet trained.

tennis_pro
03-17-2012, 07:12 PM
Nadal only can use the 10 count....... 16 is Federer's:)

hahaha:)....

Atherton2003
03-17-2012, 07:15 PM
Actually, Nadal needs the 18 count and Fed needs the 10 count.

Nathaniel_Near
03-17-2012, 07:17 PM
Didn't occur to me that Rafa took bathroom breaks habitually. MTOs though, yeah, sure.


These people also think they know tennis better than Rafa/Roger themselves; no surprise if they think that Rafa does everything on purpose, which should come as rather contradictory since they also assert that Rafa's as dumb as a rock. Next up: aliens built the pyramids, the US government faked the moon landing and set up 9/11.

Bingo!


.....

OddJack
03-17-2012, 07:19 PM
All Nadal was missing was tapping his racket on court like Kirilenko.

A new low for Nadal.

SLD76
03-17-2012, 07:21 PM
How does one know that Fed wasn't carry around a crap in his pants?

you speak alot of crapping in pants.

somebody sounds butthurt.

tudwell
03-17-2012, 07:55 PM
Who cares? The better player won tonight.

Chopin
03-17-2012, 08:06 PM
Doesn't Roger take bathroom breaks in the middle of sets too?

The fact is that I can rarely, if ever, remember Federer taking any "injury timeout" or "bathroom break" during a set, though Nadal often does this.

ChanceEncounter
03-17-2012, 08:09 PM
Come on, it's not fine. Just because the umps are pussies doesn't mean he should take advantage of it. Yes he can take advantage of it, but it's not fine and it makes him an A hole.
Everyone would take advantage of it if they knew the umpires wouldn't call it. The umpires need to come down on the rules more regularly, then players will regulate themselves out of fear of it being called.

sbengte
03-17-2012, 08:15 PM
Doesn't Roger take bathroom breaks in the middle of sets too?

I don't know. Please enlighten us when was the last time Fed took a bathroom break in the middle of a set ? I remember Nadal took one between games in his WTF 2011 RR match against Fish.

forthegame
03-17-2012, 08:16 PM
Missed the incident but what's wrong with going to the loo if you're in the middle of a rain delay?

sbengte
03-17-2012, 08:16 PM
Yeah so often that you only have that one incident on your mind :)

Which one ?:shock:

pvaudio
03-17-2012, 08:17 PM
Everyone would take advantage of it if they knew the umpires wouldn't call it. The umpires need to come down on the rules more regularly, then players will regulate themselves out of fear of it being called.No, they don't. Nadal, however, consistently does. The people who claim that all of this is legitimate are either ignorant or simply bitter that their favorite player is a gamesman. He's been doing this for years.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-17-2012, 08:18 PM
Which one ?:shock:

I presume he was thinking about the one against Davydenko at the AO2010.

pvaudio
03-17-2012, 08:19 PM
Missed the incident but what's wrong with going to the loo if you're in the middle of a rain delay?1. How often do you see players take bathroom breaks?

2. It was before his opponent was to serve, not his. He only ever does it this way on purpose.

3. It was not in the middle of a rain delay.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-17-2012, 08:20 PM
Everyone would take advantage of it if they knew the umpires wouldn't call it. The umpires need to come down on the rules more regularly, then players will regulate themselves out of fear of it being called.

That's the point isn't it? Fed is 5 years older than Nadal and I'm sure he could use more time between points and he knows umps don't call it. Hell he was just complaining about that. Yet he consistently takes less time between points than most of the top guys. So there you go, not everyone does.

sbengte
03-17-2012, 08:22 PM
I presume he was thinking about the one against Davydenko at the AO2010.

Why this urban legend being propagated by Fed fans themselves about that legal , non-disruptive bathroom break taken between sets in the Davy match is beyond me. Fed was back before the umpire called time so it is dumb to compare it with disruptive breaks taken *between* games in the middle of a set.

Towser83
03-17-2012, 08:31 PM
Excuse me, but I'd rather not see a player pee or crap in their pants.

lol actually i've seen some matches that were so boring some pants crapping might have been more entertaining

mellowyellow
03-17-2012, 08:32 PM
We will probably learn Rafito has a kidney stone = loss, and need of bathroom break.

Don Felder
03-17-2012, 08:33 PM
It was sweet to see Fed punish this crap with that resounding ace.

My buddy and I were texting back and forth. I told him I guarantee if this gets close again, Nadal is calling the trainer or taking a bathroom break. And he did not disappoint. It was patently obvious he was hoping to buy time to get the rain delay. He knew Fed was tightening up. The begging for the delay at 40-30 after Fed won the brutal 30-30 point at 5-4 was merely the cherry on top. Pathetic. Any man finishes that point.

I think the best solution is to allow mid-set bathroom breaks, injury TOs etc only before your own service game. Good solution whoever posted that earlier.

dudeski
03-17-2012, 08:33 PM
100% agree. Nadal is just pathetic.

QFT.
10nadalisapatheticcheater

dudeski
03-17-2012, 08:36 PM
What Nadal does is fine. The blame goes for the umpires and tennis associations for not enforcing their own rules. None of the players have any obligation to uphold the rules of some hegemony if they aren't called for violating them.

I see, so if in some country police doesn't care if you kill your sister to protect family honour after she had an afair then there is nothing wrong with that. Got it.

dudeski
03-17-2012, 08:40 PM
why do men pee on trees or wherever they can in public? Do you expect them to wait to get to a bathroom? Sometimes it is quite simply, not possible. Men should know it and understand that nature calls and when it does, you often can't wait. Let's please move on from this inane topic.

Do you actually believe that Nadal had to pee? Are you joking? This was obviously time delaying to break Feds momentum. It happens every time Fed has a big lead in a match vs Nadal. Especially on clay, time delaying MTO every time. I think Nadal only doesn't even bother cheating when they play indoors because he know he is toast.

ChanceEncounter
03-17-2012, 09:03 PM
I see, so if in some country police doesn't care if you kill your sister to protect family honour after she had an afair then there is nothing wrong with that. Got it.
There are some religions where this would be viewed as correct. If that's how the society functions, that's how it functions. To judge everything via your own values and morals is borderline racist. But that's a conversation for a different board.

I think umpires should call time wasting more often. But if they don't, then players aren't really in the wrong if they squeeze a few extra seconds out of it. If I were in charge, I would put a hard clock and penalize anyone who goes over it. That would stop the time wasting real quick.

pvaudio
03-17-2012, 09:06 PM
Do you actually believe that Nadal had to pee? Are you joking? This was obviously time delaying to break Feds momentum. It happens every time Fed has a big lead in a match vs Nadal. Especially on clay, time delaying MTO every time. I think Nadal only doesn't even bother cheating when they play indoors because he know he is toast.Wrong. It happens every time ANYONE has a big lead in a match vs. Nadal.

pvaudio
03-17-2012, 09:13 PM
There are some religions where this would be viewed as correct. If that's how the society functions, that's how it functions. To judge everything via your own values and morals is borderline racist. But that's a conversation for a different board.

I think umpires should call time wasting more often. But if they don't, then players aren't really in the wrong if they squeeze a few extra seconds out of it. If I were in charge, I would put a hard clock and penalize anyone who goes over it. That would stop the time wasting real quick.How the word racism is even remotely related to this discussion is beyond me. Try to think of a better term to use next time.

Back to the point: your logic is ridiculous. If you're going 70 in a 65, you're still speeding even if a cop chooses not to pull you over. If you're going 80 in a 65, you're just lucky if you don't get pulled over. Nadal is effectively going 85, but he doesn't get pulled over because it's for some reason well known that he simply drives that way. So therefore, his speeding is okay (it's preposterous I'm using speeding as an analogy for slowness) because he knows he won't get pulled over? No, it's not. Federer obeys the speed limit, hell, Roddick would be going 50 in a 65 using this analogy. He never even uses the entire changeover.

TMF
03-17-2012, 09:18 PM
Umpire is part of the blame for not taking action. However it's still a gamesmanship by Nadal since he abuses the rule when fully aware that it's a violation.

ChanceEncounter
03-17-2012, 09:18 PM
How the word racism is even remotely related to this discussion is beyond me. Try to think of a better term to use next time.

Back to the point: your logic is ridiculous. If you're going 70 in a 65, you're still speeding even if a cop chooses not to pull you over. If you're going 80 in a 65, you're just lucky if you don't get pulled over. Nadal is effectively going 85, but he doesn't get pulled over because it's for some reason well known that he simply drives that way. So therefore, his speeding is okay (it's preposterous I'm using speeding as an analogy for slowness) because he knows he won't get pulled over? No, it's not. Federer obeys the speed limit, hell, Roddick would be going 50 in a 65 using this analogy. He never even uses the entire changeover.
It is a form of racism if you expect an outgroup (see the ingroup vs outgroup theory for racism) to conform to your ingroup standards, morals, and values. You have to judge situations based on how their cultural standards hold up.

If you're speeding on the highway and pull you over, you're breaking the law. Okay? I didn't say that Nadal wasn't breaking the rules, so you either like building straw men or talking to hear yourself talk. From a sociological perspective, what keeps you from going 85 mph in a 65 mph zone at 3 in the morning? Hegemony of the rules themselves. You respect the rules because of the possibility of being caught, even if that possibility is incredibly low. The nature of hegemony is that it can be very fluid. That is, if cops start cracking down on speeding, you'll see fewer and fewer people willing to go 85 mph in a 65 mph zone even at 3 in the morning.

Go on a major interstate highway and note the average speed. I'm willing to bet it's over the speed limit. Does that mean all of them should be hauled into jail? Of course not. Going over the speed limit means nothing unless there are police officers who are willing to pull you over for it. Until there are umpires willing to call out Nadal on his BS, he's going to continue to do it because it's a smart economic (more marginal utility vs less marginal cost) decision for him to do it. If your argument is that the umpires should be calling out time-wasting, then I agree with you. That's the problem. Not Nadal.

Anything else you like to mention is just gobbledygook.

mellowyellow
03-17-2012, 09:20 PM
It was sweet to see Fed punish this crap with that resounding ace.

My buddy and I were texting back and forth. I told him I guarantee if this gets close again, Nadal is calling the trainer or taking a bathroom break. And he did not disappoint. It was patently obvious he was hoping to buy time to get the rain delay. He knew Fed was tightening up. The begging for the delay at 40-30 after Fed won the brutal 30-30 point at 5-4 was merely the cherry on top. Pathetic. Any man finishes that point.

I think the best solution is to allow mid-set bathroom breaks, injury TOs etc only before your own service game. Good solution whoever posted that earlier.
Its funny, because i remember a womens match where they would not allow a break because of the time frame of the second set. I thought they were against bathroom breaks at the end of sets especially when down a break of serve.

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-17-2012, 09:22 PM
Doesn't Roger take bathroom breaks in the middle of sets too?

In-between sets. A little bit different.

OddJack
03-17-2012, 09:22 PM
How does this topic has anything to do with Justice, or Race?

Nadal didnt look like Nadal at all though, I have to say. But everytime he loses to Rodge he is not Nadal.
So, he was injured, right?
I wouldnt be surprised if he announces some injury tomorrow.

dudeski
03-17-2012, 09:23 PM
There are some religions where this would be viewed as correct. If that's how the society functions, that's how it functions. To judge everything via your own values and morals is borderline racist. But that's a conversation for a different board.

I think umpires should call time wasting more often. But if they don't, then players aren't really in the wrong if they squeeze a few extra seconds out of it. If I were in charge, I would put a hard clock and penalize anyone who goes over it. That would stop the time wasting real quick.

I see, so cheating is part of Nadals moral and/or religious values. Nothing wrong with that just like there is nothing wrong with murdering your own sister to protect family honour as long it is in your moral and/or religious values. You make perfect sense. Thank you for enlightening me.

ChanceEncounter
03-17-2012, 09:23 PM
How does this topic has anything to do with Justice, or Race?
It really doesn't, until someone made this asinine argument:

I see, so if in some country police doesn't care if you kill your sister to protect family honour after she had an afair then there is nothing wrong with that. Got it.

ChanceEncounter
03-17-2012, 09:25 PM
I see, so cheating is part of Nadals moral and/or religious values. Nothing wrong with that just like there is nothing wrong with murdering your own sister to protect family honour as long it is in your moral and/or religious values. You make perfect sense. Thank you for enlightening me.
You're not the brightest crayon in the box, are you?

Yes, because I said Nadal's religion and moral values condone cheating. Yes, that's exactly what I said... :rolleyes:

Straw man more, please. It's quite entertaining.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-17-2012, 09:27 PM
Nadal might read this board and just invent an injury to make the Fed fans go crazy, no? :)

TMF
03-17-2012, 09:30 PM
How does this topic has anything to do with Justice, or Race?

Nadal didnt look like Nadal at all though, I have to say. But everytime he loses to Rodge he is not Nadal.
So, he was injured, right?

I wouldnt be surprised if he announces some injury tomorrow.


It would be funny if he say he was sick, throw up, had a flu because of the virus.

dudeski
03-17-2012, 09:30 PM
You're not the brightest crayon in the box, are you?

Yes, because I said Nadal's religion and moral values condone cheating. Yes, that's exactly what I said... :rolleyes:

Straw man more, please. It's quite entertaining.

I know exactly what you meant. I am saying that just because the law enforcement decides to turn a blind eye it doesn't mean it's right to do something. My example with honour killing is that it is against the law in those countries but they turn a blind eye to it. It was an extreme example obviously but the point is valid. Also, stop being a nut defending people doing terrible things just because you feel like turning political correctness on its head.

Talker
03-17-2012, 09:31 PM
It's not how long the break was but when he did it.
Nadal knows it can irritate a player and take him out of his game at times.

I've noticed Nadal will do whatever he can get away with to win.

Each time can be explained away by itself but when looking at all the times together the reasons are very clear that it's poor gamemanship.

pvaudio
03-17-2012, 09:31 PM
It is a form of racism if you expect an outgroup (see the ingroup vs outgroup theory for racism) to conform to your ingroup standards, morals, and values. You have to judge situations based on how their cultural standards hold up.

If you're speeding on the highway and pull you over, you're breaking the law. Okay? I didn't say that Nadal wasn't breaking the rules, so you either like building straw men or talking to hear yourself talk. From a sociological perspective, what keeps you from going 85 mph in a 65 mph zone at 3 in the morning? Hegemony of the rules themselves. You respect the rules because of the possibility of being caught, even if that possibility is incredibly low. The nature of hegemony is that it can be very fluid. That is, if cops start cracking down on speeding, you'll see fewer and fewer people willing to go 85 mph in a 65 mph zone even at 3 in the morning.

Go on a major interstate highway and note the average speed. I'm willing to bet it's over the speed limit. Does that mean all of them should be hauled into jail? Of course not. Going over the speed limit means nothing unless there are police officers who are willing to pull you over for it. Until there are umpires willing to call out Nadal on his BS, he's going to continue to do it because it's a smart economic (more marginal utility vs less marginal cost) decision for him to do it. If your argument is that the umpires should be calling out time-wasting, then I agree with you. That's the problem. Not Nadal.

Anything else you like to mention is just gobbledygook.
You have the audacity to accuse me of using a straw man argument when your entire stance is based on something that you admit is fundamentally wrong. Should the umpires be calling it? Yes, we've established that. You're wrong, the problem is Nadal. Nadal is the problem because he's blatantly breaking the rules to his own benefit because he knows he won't get caught. This isn't about logic or rules: it's about character and respect for the game. In the doubles final at the USO, Petzchner got hit by a ball which went back over and won the point. He never owned up to it and the umpire did not call it. Clearly though, he was hit, and everyone saw it. Because the umpire did not notice or chose not to call it, it's okay to cheat then?

Do you realize that's what you're saying? It's okay to bend the rules to your advantage if you won't be caught? In many circles, that is known as cheating. It has nothing to do with right or wrong: it's obviously wrong. Whether you're caught or not has nothing to do with it either. It's the fact that you exploit the lax enforcement for personal gain that's wrong, and that's on the player. I honestly don't know what you're arguing here. Are you saying that it's okay for Nadal to blatantly break the rules simply because he's not being called on it?

ChanceEncounter
03-17-2012, 09:32 PM
I know exactly what you meant. I am saying that just because the law enforcement decides to turn a blind eye it doesn't mean it's right to do something. My example with honour killing is that it is against the law in those countries but they turn a blind eye to it. It was an extreme example obviously but the point is valid.
Because the argument has nothing to do with what is "right" or "wrong." If it was truly a gentlemanly issue of what is "right" or "wrong" we would replay net cords because the point was decided by luck rather than skill.

Whether or not Nadal is "right" or "wrong" has nothing to do with whether or not Nadal benefits from doing it. He does. Why? Because the umpires never call him for it. That's the only reason he benefits from time-wasting. If the umpires called him for it, he would no longer benefit and I'd bet he stops doing it.

abmk
03-17-2012, 09:33 PM
Why this urban legend being propagated by Fed fans themselves about that legal , non-disruptive bathroom break taken between sets in the Davy match is beyond me. Fed was back before the umpire called time so it is dumb to compare it with disruptive breaks taken *between* games in the middle of a set.

I agree. Fed was just joking about the break in his interview to Courier, but many took it seriously ..... Really ?

ChanceEncounter
03-17-2012, 09:35 PM
You have the audacity to accuse me of using a straw man argument when your entire stance is based on something that you admit is fundamentally wrong. Should the umpires be calling it? Yes, we've established that. You're wrong, the problem is Nadal. Nadal is the problem because he's blatantly breaking the rules to his own benefit because he knows he won't get caught. This isn't about logic or rules: it's about character and respect for the game. In the doubles final at the USO, Petzchner got hit by a ball which went back over and won the point. He never owned up to it because the umpire did not call it. Clearly though, he was hit, and everyone saw it. Because the umpire did not notice or chose not to call it, it's okay to cheat then?

Do you realize that's what you're saying? It's okay to bend the rules to your advantage if you won't be caught? In many circles, that is known as cheating. It has nothing to do with right or wrong: it's obviously wrong. Whether you're caught or not has nothing to do with it either. It's the fact that you exploit the lax enforcement for personal gain that's wrong, and that's on the player. I honestly don't know what you're arguing here. Are you saying that it's okay for Nadal to blatantly break the rules simply because he's not being called on it?
I'm saying the blame doesn't lie with Nadal precisely because the umpires do a bad job enforcing the rule.

Whether or not you think it's "okay" to cheat is irrelevant. No one said Nadal was a golden boy or that he's of perfectly upright moral character. But the bottom line is, who's more at fault for the current environment where cheaters are not punished? Nadal, for being a cheater, or the umpires, for not punishing cheaters?

Obviously the latter is more to blame.

pvaudio
03-17-2012, 09:44 PM
I'm saying the blame doesn't lie with Nadal precisely because the umpires do a bad job enforcing the rule.

Whether or not you think it's "okay" to cheat is irrelevant. No one said Nadal was a golden boy or that he's of perfectly upright moral character. But the bottom line is, who's more at fault for the current environment where cheaters are not punished? Nadal, for being a cheater, or the umpires, for not punishing cheaters?

Obviously the latter is more to blame.
Can you just not admit that your argument is ridiculous? I mean really, you're just arguing for the sake of it now. Who is more at fault? The cheater. How is there an argument? While it is the umpire's job to enforce the rules, it is the player's responsibility to adhere to the rules. I don't sit here and blame the umpire for Nadal's gamesmanship because he doesn't get called on it. I blame Nadal because he's so pathetic to do it in the first place.

cork_screw
03-17-2012, 09:46 PM
Man, I don't know why I dislike Nadal so much. I think I have just more respect for roger's game maybe it has something to do with knowing that this guy is doing what nobody else is doing by winning more majors than anyone else, having 800+ career wins and going strong at the age of 30 while doing it with a 90 inch frame and hitting a one handed backhand. I mean I busted out the k90 the other day and felt like if somebody didn't tell me it was possible to compete on the pro tour with that challenging racquet and playing the old classic to modern style that I wouldn't believe it would be possible. I feel like it's like fighting with a wooden sword and still Federer uses that and a 1hbh and beats a beast like Nadal. Man, people need to give him more credit for a 30 year old to be beating all these younger guys. Watching him play looks like it takes so much precision and natural talent, whereas I just don't feel the same with Nadal.

dudeski
03-17-2012, 09:55 PM
Man, I don't know why I dislike Nadal so much. I think I have just more respect for roger's game maybe it has something to do with knowing that this guy is doing what nobody else is doing by winning more majors than anyone else, having 800+ career wins and going strong at the age of 30 while doing it with a 90 inch frame and hitting a one handed backhand. I mean I busted out the k90 the other day and felt like if somebody didn't tell me it was possible to compete on the pro tour with that challenging racquet and playing the old classic to modern style that I wouldn't believe it would be possible. I feel like it's like fighting with a wooden sword and still Federer uses that and a 1hbh and beats a beast like Nadal. Man, people need to give him more credit for a 30 year old to be beating all these younger guys. Watching him play looks like it takes so much precision and natural talent, whereas I just don't feel the same with Nadal.

It's the butt picking, as well other OCDs with touch of creative cheating.

ChanceEncounter
03-17-2012, 10:02 PM
Can you just not admit that your argument is ridiculous? I mean really, you're just arguing for the sake of it now. Who is more at fault? The cheater. How is there an argument? While it is the umpire's job to enforce the rules, it is the player's responsibility to adhere to the rules. I don't sit here and blame the umpire for Nadal's gamesmanship because he doesn't get called on it. I blame Nadal because he's so pathetic to do it in the first place.
Then you'd be blaming the vast majority of the tour, since there's a lot of time wasting. In fact, there's so much time wasting that you're actually at a disadvantage when you adhere to the 20/25 second rule.

There's nothing 'ridiculous' about pointing out that the umpires are more to blame for this epidemic. I'm sorry that you can't get that through your head.

CMM
03-17-2012, 10:10 PM
I didn't see the match but from what I've read he didn't delay the play. If that's true, I don't see what's the problem.

IvanisevicServe
03-17-2012, 10:12 PM
Nadal plays mind games, but I don't really care. That's not why Federer loses to him.

It's the frickin moon balls. Seriously, I think the reason it rained so much is the way Nadal was hitting the ball...think he hit the stratosphere a few times.

Lsmkenpo
03-17-2012, 10:21 PM
I didn't see the match but from what I've read he didn't delay the play. If that's true, I don't see what's the problem.

His intent was to delay the the play but the umpire told him he had to make it fast. If the umpire didn't say that, he would still be in the can.

Lsmkenpo
03-17-2012, 10:26 PM
I am pretty sure the warrior Nadal, was afflicted by the dreaded IW virus during the match, this is the only explanation for the loss.

The warrior reborn never loses a match unless he is playing on one leg or deathly ill.

dh003i
03-17-2012, 11:08 PM
Football players don't get to say, "hold the play, I have to take a pee".

dh003i
03-17-2012, 11:16 PM
It is a form of racism if you expect an outgroup (see the ingroup vs outgroup theory for racism) to conform to your ingroup standards, morals, and values. You have to judge situations based on how their cultural standards hold up.

Just shut up and stop bringing multi-cultural relativist garbage to a tennis discussion. I don't care what some multi-culturalist relativist says, murdering your sister because she "dishonored" your family is not ok, nor is stuff like female genital mutilation.`

dh003i
03-17-2012, 11:18 PM
I see, so cheating is part of Nadals moral and/or religious values. Nothing wrong with that just like there is nothing wrong with murdering your own sister to protect family honour as long it is in your moral and/or religious values. You make perfect sense. Thank you for enlightening me.

His point is idiotic from top to bottom, which is to be expected because he is some kind of cultural relativists who apparently thinks ethical behaviour is a matter of opinion and is relative.

dh003i
03-17-2012, 11:20 PM
Because the argument has nothing to do with what is "right" or "wrong." If it was truly a gentlemanly issue of what is "right" or "wrong" we would replay net cords because the point was decided by luck rather than skill.

Whether or not Nadal is "right" or "wrong" has nothing to do with whether or not Nadal benefits from doing it. He does. Why? Because the umpires never call him for it. That's the only reason he benefits from time-wasting. If the umpires called him for it, he would no longer benefit and I'd bet he stops doing it.

There are players who don't cheat even if the umpires wouldn't punish them for it.

CMM
03-17-2012, 11:26 PM
I guess this was similar to RG last year when he called the trainer to remove the tape from his foot or something like that.
It had no effect on the match and it didn't delay the play, yet people (mostly Fetards) would start whining. Such sensitive people. :lol:

Rozroz
03-18-2012, 01:05 AM
i don't remember ANY player taking toilet break between games.
BUT- if it's unbearable, either pipi or diarrhea, there's simply no other way.
if Nadal faked this though, he's a fu^&%ng arshole loser .

Rozroz
03-18-2012, 01:08 AM
I guess this was similar to RG last year when he called the trainer to remove the tape from his foot or something like that.
It had no effect on the match and it didn't delay the play, yet people (mostly Fetards) would start whining. Such sensitive people. :lol:

Fed would Never do this on a 5-4 struggle 2nd set with almost raining conditions. it's called dignity (if you're talking about removing a tape).

joeri888
03-18-2012, 01:20 AM
His point is idiotic from top to bottom, which is to be expected because he is some kind of cultural relativists who apparently thinks ethical behaviour is a matter of opinion and is relative.

You can call cultural relativism idiotic, but it just looks bad on yourself. While I wouldnt throw it into this discussion if I was that *******, and wont defend Nadal on the matter, cultural relativism is a fair and very defendable basic perspective on culture. It actually shows some unegocentrism (sorry for my english), and the ability to see things from another's point of view.

Many philosopher's, politicians and other great thinkers have taken a somewhat cultural relative view. That is not idiotic. At least not as idiotic as a totalitarian western perspective on the world and how other groups and cultures should shape their world. I wouldnt take a full cultural relativism approach myself, but understand the thoughts and appreciate its merits. You could do with a bit more balance in your view, you call a perspective idiotic very easily.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with Nadal. Nadal being a cheater is not unethical. He just plays a sport we all agreed rules upon. Nadal has committed himself to keep to them and to be a fair sport. If he isn't that's not unethical, but just unclassy and a cheater (because he decided to play this game and thus needs to follow its rules.

monfed
03-18-2012, 01:37 AM
Gamesmanship? If anything, I must laud the Nadal for not spending too long on the throne, it was a pleasant surprise.

SLD76
03-18-2012, 01:43 AM
Gamesmanship? If anything, I must laud the Nadal for not spending too long on the throne, it was a pleasant surprise.

Hmmm...I believe what he said:

His intent was to delay the the play but the umpire told him he had to make it fast. If the umpire didn't say that, he would still be in the can.

I think the umpire is the one to thank that the break was so quick.

FlamEnemY
03-18-2012, 01:51 AM
Can you just not admit that your argument is ridiculous? I mean really, you're just arguing for the sake of it now. Who is more at fault? The cheater. How is there an argument? While it is the umpire's job to enforce the rules, it is the player's responsibility to adhere to the rules. I don't sit here and blame the umpire for Nadal's gamesmanship because he doesn't get called on it. I blame Nadal because he's so pathetic to do it in the first place.

There is a saying in my native language, it goes (kinda) like this:

It's not the one who steals the cake that is crazy, crazy is the one who lets him have it.

It is not exactly Nadal's fault that the rules aren't being enforced. He acts the exact same way other people would act. This doesn't make his... "tactics" any less questionable of course, but it's not a clear black-and-white situation.

FlamEnemY
03-18-2012, 01:54 AM
Football players don't get to say, "hold the play, I have to take a pee".

But they dive like ballet dancers.

Unless you speak of American Football.

monfed
03-18-2012, 01:56 AM
Hmmm...I believe what he said:



I think the umpire is the one to thank that the break was so quick.


I was being sarcastic. :P

Magnus
03-18-2012, 01:57 AM
Nadal has ruined the sport. Yes, he can play great tennis alright, but he's a shamful figure and the biggest cheater in the history of tennis. Quite frankly, I don't understand how this guy isn't banned from the sport.

Tennis_Hands
03-18-2012, 01:57 AM
He acts the exact same way other people would act. This doesn't make his... "tactics" any less questionable of course, but it's not a clear black-and-white situation.

The question is, would people with dignity und proper respect for the game do it on a regular basis, like he does? You chose your words very carefully, by not saying "the same way the other people would act".

Magnus
03-18-2012, 01:58 AM
Doesn't Roger take bathroom breaks in the middle of sets too?

No, he took once AFTER the set was OVER, not in the middle of a set.

Magnus
03-18-2012, 02:01 AM
Do you know how anti-Nadal this board is? This is just another lynch mob party.

Have you ever thought of why so many are anti-Nadal? Don't you think its possible that maybe, just maybe, people have a point about him being a cheater? Liking his game is one thing which I can get. But being blind to his shameful behavior is something I can't get. Even the commentators, which are the biggest Rafa ***** on earth, are starting to admit something very wrong is going on with this guy.

I mean, the guy got like, what, a 100 time warnings in his career? And he still doesn't care, he basically pi$$es on the umpire, the fans, and his opponent time after time. He's gotten to such a big place in his career that he allows himself to disrespect others and get away with that. Nadal is a horrible figure for kids who want to play tennis. They will think disrespecting others is fine, and crapping over the umpire is fine too.

Magnus
03-18-2012, 02:06 AM
There is a saying in my native language, it goes (kinda) like this:

It's not the one who steals the cake that is crazy, crazy is the one who lets him have it.

It is not exactly Nadal's fault that the rules aren't being enforced. He acts the exact same way other people would act. This doesn't make his... "tactics" any less questionable of course, but it's not a clear black-and-white situation.

I'd agree with that if it wasn't for the fact Nadal gets plenty of warnings, almost in every match. Does he seem to care? No. He pi$$es on everyone else on his way to glory. He's pathetic, and his fans are even more pathetic for being so blind to this.

Magnus
03-18-2012, 02:09 AM
Umpire is part of the blame for not taking action. However it's still a gamesmanship by Nadal since he abuses the rule when fully aware that it's a violation.

They are probably afraid of his stare. Who knows, the guy might be threatning them off court, I won't be surprised (for real). I'd like to see a umpire grow some balls and give him a point penalty.

Rozroz
03-18-2012, 02:33 AM
oops, sorry Magnus. i think a confused you with Mustard, thinking you dig Nadal. :oops:

FearOfTheDark
03-18-2012, 02:35 AM
Was the bathroom break really that long? He seemed to come back pretty quickly I thought.

Seemed pretty quick to me too..

ThoughtCrime
03-18-2012, 02:54 AM
Seemed pretty quick to me too..

It was quick, the umpire told him to be quick, and he returned back just on time IIRC. People like to spin things waaaay out of proportion here, especially if it's Nadal :neutral:

vive le beau jeu !
03-18-2012, 03:47 AM
good that roger ended it with a superb ace ! :)
Gamesmanship? If anything, I must laud the Nadal for not spending too long on the throne, it was a pleasant surprise.
and then they blame you for bashing cheatin'nad whereas you give him props instead !
(and please note that tio toni is not in IW... so he did all this without toni's coaching)
poor nadal... all this rain was making him wanting to go to the toilets...... :rolleyes:
Have you ever thought of why so many are anti-Nadal? Don't you think its possible that maybe, just maybe, people have a point about him being a cheater? Liking his game is one thing which I can get. But being blind to his shameful behavior is something I can't get. Even the commentators, which are the biggest Rafa ***** on earth, are starting to admit something very wrong is going on with this guy.

I mean, the guy got like, what, a 100 time warnings in his career? And he still doesn't care, he basically pi$$es on the umpire, the fans, and his opponent time after time. He's gotten to such a big place in his career that he allows himself to disrespect others and get away with that. Nadal is a horrible figure for kids who want to play tennis. They will think disrespecting others is fine, and crapping over the umpire is fine too.
excellent post. http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

zacinnc78
03-18-2012, 03:58 AM
What Nadal does is fine. The blame goes for the umpires and tennis associations for not enforcing their own rules. None of the players have any obligation to uphold the rules of some hegemony if they aren't called for violating them.
thats like saying its fine to go around stealing stuff from ur neighbors as long as nobody is calling you out for it

nadalwon2012
03-18-2012, 04:11 AM
Ladies & Gentlemen,

I was quite, quite happy when Federer aced Nadal after the rain delay and sent Nadal and his time-wasting ways packing.

Look, I've played competitive tennis (USTA juniors, coached college tennis), and taking a bathroom break during a set is something that a junior player does. If you have to use the bathroom, you do it after the set. Given Nadal's history of injury timeouts and slow play, what are we to think when Nadal takes a bathroom break down 5-4 in the second set as the rains steadily increases in intensity?

While Nadal is a great champion, his engages in gamesmanship, and I, along with countless other tennis fans, call for the umpires to enforce the rule which state that a player shall take no more than 25 seconds between points.

Best,
Chopin

Too bad you had to make a fool out of yourself the day Federer beat Nadal. I would think you would be in a good mood. Instead you complain about a bathroom break which didn't even delay the match?

FlamEnemY
03-18-2012, 04:13 AM
The question is, would people with dignity und proper respect for the game do it on a regular basis, like he does? You chose your words very carefully, by not saying "the same way the other people would act".

Why, thank you for noticing. :)

And to answer your question, maybe his definition of "proper respect for the game" is different than yours or mine. Or maybe he respects his paycheck the most. I don't know. Any way, I think there are many other players who would not do this, even if the umpires would let them.

I'd agree with that if it wasn't for the fact Nadal gets plenty of warnings, almost in every match. Does he seem to care? No. He pi$$es on everyone else on his way to glory. He's pathetic, and his fans are even more pathetic for being so blind to this.

Well, it's one thing when a dog barks at you, and another when it bites you.

Enforcing the rules doesn't mean making a half-assed warning, it means going through with it, giving penalty points to his opponent, etc.

Then again, when I think about it, even if the umpire is the chief during a match, Nadal certainly has more influence and resources than him outside of the court.

zacinnc78
03-18-2012, 04:14 AM
Nadal is a cheating little b#$%h ,he would do ANYTHING to beat Rodge ...(including and not limited to 'roids)

Yall say it was a quick break it was no biggie....yea right ,it dont take but just one little b$%%h move like that to get in somebodies head and u know it ,dont matter how long the act took

Rozroz
03-18-2012, 04:16 AM
Nadal is a cheating little b#$%h ,he would do ANYTHING to beat Rodge ...(including and not limited to 'roids)

Yall say it was a quick break it was no biggie....yea right ,it dont take but just one little b$%%h move like that to get in somebodies head and u know it ,dont matter how long the act took

add to that this whole rain delay which Nadal prayed that will happen, so a minute of toilet time might have saved his ***.

jerriy
03-18-2012, 04:19 AM
The ITF needs to rewrite the rule so any break (injury, bathroom, whatever) must be taken before a player's own serve, not the serve of the opponent. If you're not fit enough to last one more game until your own serve, it's your own fault and you should have to forfeit one game. Then none of this BS would be possible.Perfect!

Cast that rule in stone ASAP!

Peeing and pooing allowed only before yer own service game!

zacinnc78
03-18-2012, 04:48 AM
add to that this whole rain delay which Nadal prayed that will happen, so a minute of toilet time might have saved his ***.
yea it was not that he had to pee,he was just hoping to delay the match so the rain would would really cause bigger delay,little b#$$%h

jones101
03-18-2012, 05:20 AM
It was obvious, Nadal was gaining momentun by winning 2 games on the bounce, knew Fed could be nervous, so tried to stalll before Fed served for the match.

It did not work thankfully. But I must add he was gone about a minute total, so It wasn't a major delay, but I didn't like the tactic nonetheless.

Rafa fans dont need to worry though, Nadal will shake this loss off pretty easily IMO, I do think it could do wonders for Federer's confidence though.

Also, the top 4 are getting closer to each other.

1. Federer gains on Nadalovic and distances himself from Murray.

2. Rafa gains on Nole but Fed/Murray close the gap on him.

3. Murray gains on Nadalovic but is further from Fed.

4. Djokers loses ground to all three.

This CC season could be carnage rankings wise.

Magnetite
03-18-2012, 06:11 AM
To be honest, I've been in intense matches, where I've HAD to go to the bathroom. Have you ever tried to play while holding it in??

It sucks, and you can't play properly if you have to take a sh*t, or your bladder is packed full of urine.

It's impossible. It feels like when you hit the ball, you're gunna take a dump in your shorts. So you end up holding back, and playing like crap. It happened to me yesterday, and I just made it to the washroom in time. I came back and ended up winning (was just a practice match, but still intense).

OddJack
03-18-2012, 06:14 AM
After watching the match again, I have to say there was almost no delay. Nadal was back within 90 seconds or about...I dont think it affects anyone or anything.

Polvorin
03-18-2012, 07:10 AM
It is pretty sad that he talks so respectfully about Fed in front of the camera, but in reality he will stoop to any low to win against him. But he is human, after all.

On a side note OP, why are your damned etudes so difficult? :(

dudeski
03-18-2012, 07:15 AM
Have you ever thought of why so many are anti-Nadal? Don't you think its possible that maybe, just maybe, people have a point about him being a cheater? Liking his game is one thing which I can get. But being blind to his shameful behavior is something I can't get. Even the commentators, which are the biggest Rafa ***** on earth, are starting to admit something very wrong is going on with this guy.

I mean, the guy got like, what, a 100 time warnings in his career? And he still doesn't care, he basically pi$$es on the umpire, the fans, and his opponent time after time. He's gotten to such a big place in his career that he allows himself to disrespect others and get away with that. Nadal is a horrible figure for kids who want to play tennis. They will think disrespecting others is fine, and crapping over the umpire is fine too.

+1 Couldn't say it better myself.

NamRanger
03-18-2012, 07:19 AM
thats like saying its fine to go around stealing stuff from ur neighbors as long as nobody is calling you out for it



If everyone else is stealing also why the hell would you play fair?

dudeski
03-18-2012, 07:19 AM
Nadal is a cheating little b#$%h ,he would do ANYTHING to beat Rodge ...(including and not limited to 'roids)

Yall say it was a quick break it was no biggie....yea right ,it dont take but just one little b$%%h move like that to get in somebodies head and u know it ,dont matter how long the act took

Exactly. The length of the delay doesn't matter when you play against Federer who is very prone to total meltdowns when Nadal does his MTOs. It was clearly a mind game. Nadal didn't want to make it a MTO this because that would be too obvious. Nadal is not as dumb as he looks or sounds.

Apun94
03-18-2012, 07:21 AM
Ladies & Gentlemen,

I was quite, quite happy when Federer aced Nadal after the rain delay and sent Nadal and his time-wasting ways packing.

Look, I've played competitive tennis (USTA juniors, coached college tennis), and taking a bathroom break during a set is something that a junior player does. If you have to use the bathroom, you do it after the set. Given Nadal's history of injury timeouts and slow play, what are we to think when Nadal takes a bathroom break down 5-4 in the second set as the rains steadily increases in intensity?

While Nadal is a great champion, his engages in gamesmanship, and I, along with countless other tennis fans, call for the umpires to enforce the rule which state that a player shall take no more than 25 seconds between points.

Best,
Chopin

It's really not Nadal's fault rather it's the umpire's duty to say something. Plus, how can you really know if a person really has to go to the bathroom or not. Cant take the risk of anyone crapping their pants, can we?

SStrikerR
03-18-2012, 07:22 AM
To be honest, I've been in intense matches, where I've HAD to go to the bathroom. Have you ever tried to play while holding it in??

It sucks, and you can't play properly if you have to take a sh*t, or your bladder is packed full of urine.

It's impossible. It feels like when you hit the ball, you're gunna take a dump in your shorts. So you end up holding back, and playing like crap. It happened to me yesterday, and I just made it to the washroom in time. I came back and ended up winning (was just a practice match, but still intense).

If you can't hold in it for a point, you've already waited too long. That's a bs excuse and anyone who doesn't admit it is lying to themselves.

henryshli
03-18-2012, 07:48 AM
Quick or not it was a distraction. But surely if he was that desperate he would have been weeing like a camel, the fact that he was quick meant that he wasnt that desperate.

Magnetite
03-18-2012, 07:58 AM
If you can't hold in it for a point, you've already waited too long. That's a bs excuse and anyone who doesn't admit it is lying to themselves.

Well duh .. you hold it in, end up playing worse, then at a certain point you just can't hold it in, and HAVE to go to washroom. I ate something iffy, had an upset stomach yesterday and HAD to get there quickly.

I'm not saying this is what happened to Nadal, but before the crucial game at 5-4, I would personally go to the washroom quickly, so I can be at my best. If he took 3 mins, he should have been penalized, but as it stands, he barely took longer than the usual time allowed.

I'm a Federer fan, but it's just ridiculous hating on Nadal for going to the washroom.

tacou
03-18-2012, 08:32 AM
Excuse me, but I'd rather not see a player pee or crap in their pants.

qf t

rafan
03-18-2012, 10:23 AM
Excuse me, but I'd rather not see a player pee or crap in their pants.

Well done that just about sums up this daft argument

zagor
03-18-2012, 10:52 AM
I barely even noticed Nadal took a toilet break, it was so short, I think people are overreacting on this one.

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-18-2012, 10:58 AM
I barely even noticed Nadal took a toilet break, it was so short, I think people are overreacting on this one.

Possibly, but when you look at Nadal's history of taking MTOs at times that are allowed but somewhat questionable, it makes his need for the bathroom at that time doubtful. Yes, no one will know for sure if he had to use the bathroom, but based on passed actions I'd say there is a reasonable doubt. It took maybe 4 minutes for that game at 3-5. I just wonder why he didn't take it on his serve? Possibly because he didn't want to stop his momentum after he just broke Federer's serve?

als47
03-18-2012, 11:05 AM
If everyone else is stealing also why the hell would you play fair?

So Federer was doing the same sorts of things in the match?

If he wasn't, then the "if everyone else is stealing" argument doesn't hold water, does it?

zagor
03-18-2012, 11:11 AM
Possibly, but when you look at Nadal's history of taking MTOs at times that are allowed but somewhat questionable, it makes his need for the bathroom at that time doubtful. Yes, no one will know for sure if he had to use the bathroom, but based on passed actions I'd say there is a reasonable doubt. It took maybe 4 minutes for that game at 3-5. I just wonder why he didn't take it on his serve? Possibly because he didn't want to stop his momentum after he just broke Federer's serve?

Well it can be questionable all you like but we can't really know for sure either way, I wouldn't discount the possibility (no matter how remote some people think it is) that he really had to go.

Besides Nadal was on a 2 game winning streak and just started having the upper hand from the baseline, why would he break his own momentum?

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-18-2012, 11:57 AM
Well it can be questionable all you like but we can't really know for sure either way, I wouldn't discount the possibility (no matter how remote some people think it is) that he really had to go.

Besides Nadal was on a 2 game winning streak and just started having the upper hand from the baseline, why would he break his own momentum?

Ever hear the story "The Boy Who Cried Wolf?" France is working on their interpretation called "The Boy Who Cried MTO." Should be out in puppet version shortly. Nadal just has a history of this. Yes we will never know for sure, but I'd say a majority of people would call his choices questionable.

Federer also asked if he could go to the bathroom during the first rain delay while he was serving at 30-15. They told him they thought it was stopping and asked if he could hold it. He decided he could. I have no problem with bathroom breaks as long as they are between the sets or before your own serve. As for breaking his own momentum, that's exactly what he chose to avoid. Nadal had a hard time getting into Federer's service games that match. Federer rarely allows someone to come back from two breaks down and would've most likely closed it out on his serve rather than Nadal breaking him once again to put them back on serve. What Nadal did was similar to icing the kicker in the NFL. Icing the kicker is when where you take a timeout right before they are to kick a field goal. You do this to make them think about the kick they are going to make.

ZeroSkid
03-18-2012, 12:18 PM
Pathetic, lets be honest hear Roger playerd amazing, but he won because of the win and in the back of your mind you know that is the truth

Limpinhitter
03-18-2012, 12:21 PM
Nadal is a cheat, and bad sport. Nothing new. Only thing surprising is the weak chair umps not putting an end to it.

by the way, 5 star thread! :)

The umpire wants to work next week!

Gorecki
03-18-2012, 12:31 PM
The first lady of Serbia must be very sad given how Novak just lost, so she had a chance to win and gain points on him!!!

zagor
03-18-2012, 01:08 PM
Ever hear the story "The Boy Who Cried Wolf?" France is working on their interpretation called "The Boy Who Cried MTO." Should be out in puppet version shortly. Nadal just has a history of this. Yes we will never know for sure, but I'd say a majority of people would call his choices questionable.

I can see your point but I just don't think that this particular break was long enough to warrant such criticsm in this thread.

Federer also asked if he could go to the bathroom during the first rain delay while he was serving at 30-15. They told him they thought it was stopping and asked if he could hold it. He decided he could.

Fed is Fed, his on court behaviour is nearly spotless, you can't hold everyone to that standard.


I have no problem with bathroom breaks as long as they are between the sets or before your own serve. As for breaking his own momentum, that's exactly what he chose to avoid.

I think that the rule should be that bathroom breaks are only allowed between sets or before one's serve but that's not the case as it stands right now.

Nadal had a hard time getting into Federer's service games that match.

Overall he did but he broke Fed to 15 IIRC in Roger's last service game before the bathroom break.

Federer rarely allows someone to come back from two breaks down and would've most likely closed it out on his serve rather than Nadal breaking him once again to put them back on serve.

Well you could say that the vast majority of players rarely let someone come back from two breaks down and Fed is not nearly as good of a front runner/finisher last few years like he was back in 2004-2007.

What Nadal did was similar to icing the kicker in the NFL. Icing the kicker is when where you take a timeout right before they are to kick a field goal. You do this to make them think about the kick they are going to make.

I know what icing is from basketball but my point here boils down to:

-Don't think Nadal was gone long enough (there's a break at an uneven game anyway)

-IMO Nadal was the one who had momentum going, not Fed. Nadal's best tennis in yesterday's match came when he was 2-5 down in the 2nd set.

NamRanger
03-18-2012, 01:44 PM
So Federer was doing the same sorts of things in the match?

If he wasn't, then the "if everyone else is stealing" argument doesn't hold water, does it?



If you're put in a world where there are no rules and you try to play by the rules, you are only doing yourself a disservice by playing by the rules. It's the same concept. The problem lies with the Umpires first, players 2nd.

als47
03-18-2012, 01:47 PM
If you're put in a world where there are no rules and you try to play by the rules, you are only doing yourself a disservice by playing by the rules. It's the same concept. The problem lies with the Umpires first, players 2nd.

But... there are rules. And his opponent is playing by the rules. I don't see why he'd be doing himself a disservice to abide by the rules when his opponent is abiding by them. It's only if your opponent breaks the rules that you do yourself a disservice by not breaking them too.

I mean, that makes sense to me. Where am I going wrong here?

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-18-2012, 01:53 PM
I can see your point but I just don't think that this particular break was long enough to warrant such criticsm in this thread.


I think that the rule should be that bathroom breaks are only allowed between sets or before one's serve but that's not the case as it stands right now.



Overall he did but he broke Fed to 15 IIRC in Roger's last service game before the bathroom break.



Well you could say that the vast majority of players rarely let someone come back from two breaks down and Fed is not nearly as good of a front runner/finisher last few years like he was back in 2004-2007.



I know what icing is from basketball but my point here boils down to:

-Don't think Nadal was gone long enough (there's a break at an uneven game anyway)

-IMO Nadal was the one who had momentum going, not Fed. Nadal's best tennis in yesterday's match came when he was 2-5 down in the 2nd set.

I agree the break wasn't that long. It's really the combination of all the events that are causing this. Some make it out to be far worse than it really is.

As for the rule I agree that it was within the rules but tennis is still somewhat of a gentleman's game. There are some unwritten rules that you're suppose to follow and while it's not illegal to break them, it's just sort of frowned upon.

As for Federer not being the closer he was, that is 100% true. I feel he over thinks now and giving him time to think about how to serve against Nadal isn't a good thing. Plus he seems to get uppity about just about any pauses in play.

okdude1992
03-18-2012, 01:55 PM
he took a bathroom break BETWEEN sets. thats not gamesmanship

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-18-2012, 02:04 PM
he took a bathroom break BETWEEN sets. thats not gamesmanship

who took a break between sets?

TheTruth
03-18-2012, 02:41 PM
Well duh .. you hold it in, end up playing worse, then at a certain point you just can't hold it in, and HAVE to go to washroom. I ate something iffy, had an upset stomach yesterday and HAD to get there quickly.

I'm not saying this is what happened to Nadal, but before the crucial game at 5-4, I would personally go to the washroom quickly, so I can be at my best. If he took 3 mins, he should have been penalized, but as it stands, he barely took longer than the usual time allowed.

I'm a Federer fan, but it's just ridiculous hating on Nadal for going to the washroom.

That is the absolute truth. People should stop sinking to new lows around here.

NamRanger
03-18-2012, 02:45 PM
But... there are rules. And his opponent is playing by the rules. I don't see why he'd be doing himself a disservice to abide by the rules when his opponent is abiding by them. It's only if your opponent breaks the rules that you do yourself a disservice by not breaking them too.

I mean, that makes sense to me. Where am I going wrong here?



98% of Nadal's opponents do not play by the rules. That 2% is Roddick and Federer. Everyone else goes over the time limit. Whose fault is that? The players? Or the umpires? Where Nadal crosses the line is when he PURPOSELY wastes time in order to ice his opponent, but alot of players do this also and they get away with it too. Doesn't mean it is correct; it just means that enforcement needs to happen otherwise it will continue to occur.

TheTruth
03-18-2012, 02:46 PM
The fact is that I can rarely, if ever, remember Federer taking any "injury timeout" or "bathroom break" during a set, though Nadal often does this.

Federer is not the standard for Nadal. This isn't everything Federer does is right and everything Nadal does is wrong, although that seems to be your position.

They are two different people. Let them be.

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-18-2012, 02:49 PM
Federer is not the standard for Nadal. This isn't everything Federer does is right and everything Nadal does is wrong, although that seems to be your position.

They are two different people. Let them be.

The problem is when he does it before his opponents serve or usually when he's down. It's not the fact that he took a bathroom break, but the fact he did it before his opponent was about to serve.

This post below seems to sum it up nicely


The bathroom break at 4-5 was a disgrace. Nadal's history with this behavior is crystal clear, he consistently does it before his opponent's serve and not his own. It's an embarassment to the game. Any fan who doesn't see it is the kind of player who would do the same thing in a match. Chopin, I'm with you on this one. There are several great things about nadal's game but the gamesmanship is terrible.

The ITF needs to rewrite the rule so any break (injury, bathroom, whatever) must be taken before a player's own serve, not the serve of the opponent. If you're not fit enough to last one more game until your own serve, it's your own fault and you should have to forfeit one game. Then none of this BS would be possible.

TheTruth
03-18-2012, 02:58 PM
The problem is when he does it before his opponents serve or usually when he's down. It's not the fact that he took a bathroom break, but the fact he did it before his opponent was about to serve.

This post below seems to sum it up nicely

I could buy that if not for Fed's infamous bathroom break where he said he wanted to wait for the sun to go down when he was being beat by Davydenko. Back then it was assumed on here that he was "joking" and many of the Fed Fans were livid at the suggestion that it was anything less.

Can you imagine if Nadal had said such a thing?

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

The double standards are ridiculous.

accidental
03-18-2012, 03:03 PM
In on Chopin thread

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-18-2012, 03:06 PM
I could buy that if not for Fed's infamous bathroom break where he said he wanted to wait for the sun to go down when he was being beat by Davydenko. Back then it was assumed on here that he was "joking" and many of the Fed Fans were livid at the suggestion that it was anything less.

Can you imagine if Nadal had said such a thing?

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

The double standards are ridiculous.

So there is no difference between taking a bathroom break between sets and during a changeover before your opponents serve? Again this all comes back to the fact Nadal habitually takes these MTOs before his opponent's serve and not his own. Federer has also been known to joke about many things. Personally, I feel he took the break to clear his head. If he kept taking breaks like that then it would be questionable, but you're citing one instance for Federer as justification for all the "gamesmanship" incidents for Nadal.

canuckfan
03-18-2012, 03:08 PM
Taking a break after the set is done is a VERY different thing. There is already a slightly longer break in the rules between sets. Plus the past set is finished; whoever won it has it in the bag and a new set has begun, psychologically and on the scoreboard. It is not an attempt to "ice the server" at a critical time late in a set. If an early break happens the opponent has the whole set to come back.

No double standard, just the truth. There is no way to cover it up or justify nadal's poor gamesmanship.

TheTruth
03-18-2012, 03:19 PM
So there is no difference between taking a bathroom break between sets and during a changeover before your opponents serve? Again this all comes back to the fact Nadal habitually takes these MTOs before his opponent's serve and not his own. Federer has also been known to joke about many things. Personally, I feel he took the break to clear his head. If he kept taking breaks like that then it would be questionable, but you're citing one instance for Federer as justification for all the "gamesmanship" incidents for Nadal.

Personally means that's how you choose to see it, not necessarily the way it is. And, you don't know how it is because you're not Nadal's bladder.

People take MTO's whenever they need them. You have no way of knowing these things. You're simply making assumptions.

However, in your universe:

Nadal bathroom break= cheater
Federer bathroom break= joke

Ridiculous

TheTruth
03-18-2012, 03:22 PM
Taking a break after the set is done is a VERY different thing. There is already a slightly longer break in the rules between sets. Plus the past set is finished; whoever won it has it in the bag and a new set has begun, psychologically and on the scoreboard. It is not an attempt to "ice the server" at a critical time late in a set. If an early break happens the opponent has the whole set to come back.

No double standard, just the truth. There is no way to cover it up or justify nadal's poor gamesmanship.

Do we have any stats on who takes bathroom breaks in matches, or do we just want to go on a witch hunt and burn Nadal at the stake?

As a Nadal fan I was happy for Federer's win, but it seems I erred. Carry on with the divisiveness that is characteristic of this board (for no reason I might add).

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-18-2012, 03:26 PM
Personally means that's how you choose to see it, not necessarily the way it is. And, you don't know how it is because you're not Nadal's bladder.

People take MTO's whenever they need them. You have no way of knowing these things. You're simply making assumptions.

However, in your universe:

Nadal bathroom break= cheater
Federer bathroom break= joke

Ridiculous

Congrats on knowing what personally means. It means that it is my opinion. Everything that I write is my opinion unless I cite someone else's opinion.

I guess you're going to say that Federer getting up after Nadal today to start the match proves that Nadal always is up first. Face it, Nadal has a history and it seems to imply he'd rather take MTOs/breaks before his opponent's serve and not his.

Say Chi Sin Lo
03-18-2012, 03:46 PM
Nadal took another bathroom break in a set, during the doubles final.

niff
03-18-2012, 03:49 PM
Nadal took another bathroom break in a set, during the doubles final.
2 in the match. Comms were saying that a player is not allowed more than 1 bathroom break in a 3 set match, but Bernardes allowed it.

Castiel
03-18-2012, 03:57 PM
I missed the match, did Rafa take a bathroom break during a match point? or was it just before the last game started

Cup8489
03-18-2012, 04:08 PM
Is it beneath you to make a point without the insults?

The issue was bathroom breaks. You deem one cheating, and the other one a harmless joke. That's what's hypocritical.

I apologize. I was getting heated at other posters, you're not really being unfair.

And I don't consider Federer's bathroom break a harmless joke, but I would see it as less of a problem compared to someone taking one just before their opponent was to serve. That's what my beef is, doing it before a huge game in a match that was barely an hour long at that point. Rafa was doing it obviously to make Federer get tight, and while Federer may or may not have been doing the same against Davydenko, he did say that he did it to allow the shade to cross the court.

Are both examples of gamesmanship? Sure, but I consider Nadal's a larger breach, as in the Federer example Davydenko was up a set, rather than down match points or something. That's why I find Nadal's antics more deplorable, because of the timing.

sportsfan1
03-18-2012, 04:17 PM
2 in the match. Comms were saying that a player is not allowed more than 1 bathroom break in a 3 set match, but Bernardes allowed it.

Maybe Rafa's just playing the match between bathroom breaks! :)

dudeski
03-18-2012, 04:23 PM
Is it beneath you to make a point without the insults?

The issue was bathroom breaks. You deem one cheating, and the other one a harmless joke. That's what's hypocritical.

The fact is that Nadal has a long history of taking MTOs whenever Fed gets on a roll. Therefore anyone can be totally reasonable and assume that this washroom break was a momentum breaking tactic. Fed on the other hand is not known to do such things.

drakulie
03-18-2012, 04:29 PM
I

The issue was bathroom breaks.

Yes, and being that Nadal was never potty trained, the whole tennis tour should suffer at him taking them when it is most inconvenient for his opponent.

CCNM
03-18-2012, 04:36 PM
Well, he could always relieve himself in an empty water bottle right there on the court-like that American Football player did! HA HA HA!

Atherton2003
03-18-2012, 04:37 PM
156 posts on this thread discussing whether Nadal really had to pee.

TheTruth
03-18-2012, 04:40 PM
I apologize. I was getting heated at other posters, you're not really being unfair.

And I don't consider Federer's bathroom break a harmless joke, but I would see it as less of a problem compared to someone taking one just before their opponent was to serve. That's what my beef is, doing it before a huge game in a match that was barely an hour long at that point. Rafa was doing it obviously to make Federer get tight, and while Federer may or may not have been doing the same against Davydenko, he did say that he did it to allow the shade to cross the court.

Are both examples of gamesmanship? Sure, but I consider Nadal's a larger breach, as in the Federer example Davydenko was up a set, rather than down match points or something. That's why I find Nadal's antics more deplorable, because of the timing.

Thanks, Cup.

Regarding the timing of the break he must have really needed it. I know he wasn't expecting to get back in the match on matchpoint. Fed is notorious for being a great frontrunner and hitting aces on crucial points. There was no way Federer was going to be denied. Enjoy your victory. It was a masterful performance :).

TheTruth
03-18-2012, 04:42 PM
Yes, and being that Nadal was never potty trained, the whole tennis tour should suffer at him taking them when it is most inconvenient for his opponent.

He's done well for someone who hasn't mastered such an elementary bodily function.

Hi drak. Long time. No see.

Atherton2003
03-18-2012, 04:43 PM
I'll give Nadal the benefit and say that he really needed to go.....he seems to be having bladder issues lately.

drakulie
03-18-2012, 04:48 PM
He's done well for someone who hasn't mastered such an elementary bodily function.

Not too sure about that. Lot of buttpicking going on back there.

Hi drak. Long time. No see.

Good to see you still posting.

drakulie
03-18-2012, 04:49 PM
I'll give Nadal the benefit and say that he really needed to go.....

Yup. The moment he stopped serving, and his opponent was serving for the match. It hit him at that exact moment.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-18-2012, 04:51 PM
You're such a hypocrite. You're telling me that a bathroom break before a guy serves for a match on a cold night, where muscles can quickly cool off and nerves are at their highest, is the same as a guy taking a bathroom break on the set changeover after losing the first set?

You're completely worthless as a poster.

You're funny. I love your sense of humour. What a wonderful post. I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy inside.

TheTruth
03-18-2012, 04:53 PM
Not too sure about that. Lot of buttpicking going on back there.


Good to see you still posting.

Ignoring the first part. Good to see you as well.

PCXL-Fan
03-18-2012, 04:59 PM
Personally means that's how you choose to see it, not necessarily the way it is. And, you don't know how it is because you're not Nadal's bladder.

People take MTO's whenever they need them. You have no way of knowing these things. You're simply making assumptions.

However, in your universe:

Nadal bathroom break= cheater
Federer bathroom break= joke

Ridiculous

You're such a hypocrite. You're telling me that a bathroom break before a guy serves for a match on a cold night, where muscles can quickly cool off and nerves are at their highest, is the same as a guy taking a bathroom break on the set changeover after losing the first set?

You're completely worthless as a poster.

Thetruth is one of the blindest *********s out there. While he's being serious... dont worry most dont take him seriously.

I'm just glad this wasn't happening during a Grandslam.

Clarky21
03-18-2012, 04:59 PM
I'll give Nadal the benefit and say that he really needed to go.....he seems to be having bladder issues lately.


In all seriousness there does seem to be an issue. He took 2 bathroom breaks today in his doubles match. Maybe he has the IW plague and cannot help it. I would rather players go to the bathroom when they need to rather than having them p*ss or sh*t their pants on the court. If you gotta go you gotta go,people.

MichaelNadal
03-18-2012, 05:13 PM
In all seriousness there does seem to be an issue. He took 2 bathroom breaks today in his doubles match. Maybe he has the IW plague and cannot help it. I would rather players go to the bathroom when they need to rather than having them p*ss or sh*t their pants on the court. If you gotta go you gotta go,people.

Wow, that's weird. He must have something going on o_O

cc0509
03-18-2012, 06:13 PM
So there is no difference between taking a bathroom break between sets and during a changeover before your opponents serve? Again this all comes back to the fact Nadal habitually takes these MTOs before his opponent's serve and not his own. Federer has also been known to joke about many things. Personally, I feel he took the break to clear his head. If he kept taking breaks like that then it would be questionable, but you're citing one instance for Federer as justification for all the "gamesmanship" incidents for Nadal.


Exactly. *******s constantly bring up this one incident with Federer yet with Nadal he makes a full time career out of MTO's and injury excuses. Gotta love it.

cc0509
03-18-2012, 06:16 PM
Do we have any stats on who takes bathroom breaks in matches, or do we just want to go on a witch hunt and burn Nadal at the stake?

As a Nadal fan I was happy for Federer's win, but it seems I erred. Carry on with the divisiveness that is characteristic of this board (for no reason I might add).

Please spare us with the melodrama, you were happy for the Federer win but then you go on to crucify and criticize Federer in the Nadal news thread. Hypocrite much?

dudeski
03-18-2012, 06:38 PM
Wow, that's weird. He must have something going on o_O

Gonorrhoea is hell of a disease.

JennyS
03-18-2012, 06:45 PM
http://www.cinemaspartan.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/arnold-kindergarten-cop-3-650x364.jpg

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-18-2012, 06:57 PM
Yup. The moment he stopped serving, and his opponent was serving for the match. It hit him at that exact moment.

You mean he had no idea that he needed to release waste 4 minutes before going to the bathroom? You know, when it was his turn to serve :)

Netspirit
03-18-2012, 07:30 PM
Why is gamesmanship bad but sportsmanship is good?

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-18-2012, 07:51 PM
Why is gamesmanship bad but sportsmanship is good?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gamesmanship

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sportsmanship?s=t

monfed
03-18-2012, 09:58 PM
Federer took a bathroom break AFTER the first set was over(at AO 2010). Nadal does it in the middle of a set especially BEFORE Federer's service game at 5-4 no less. Jesus

Do Nadal fans even realise that Federer is a rhythmatic server compared to Nadal? Delaying Federer on HIS service damages Federer in that it hampers his concentration and takes him temporarily out of the 'moment'. OTOH Nadal can deal with a few extra seconds of delay because his serve isn't built as much on rhythm,on the contrary he prefers a little more b/w each point to recover.

And, the receiver ought to play at the server's pace unless there's a very serious problem faced by the receiver. The difference maybe 5-10 seconds but that is vital, just like how it is when the ball scrapes the line by a mm for a winner/error, it's close yet critical!

On a side note, does etiquette need to be enforced? Chew on that for a bit.

DMan
03-18-2012, 10:13 PM
Who knows if he had to take a pee or not. Maybe he has a bladder problem. It is very difficult to hold it when the urge suddenly hits. He did not take long, nor did it delay the game in any way - so let's move on from this senseless topic.

Nadal = Gamesmanship?!

What, you're only realizing this now?!?!?!?!

Oh, and did he really have to pee? Amazing how after just a few minutes of play, he had to take a bathroom break. And amazing how players in the past NEVER, and I mean NEVER took bathroom breaks, even in 4+ hour matches. Pathetic that the pro tours allow bathroom breaks at NAY time other than at the end of a set. Naturally, there are the cheaters like Nadal who will push the limits of the rules (time between points and Nadal?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!) since they know they can't win on merit, so they have to resort to gamesmanship.

sbengte
03-18-2012, 10:24 PM
I could buy that if not for Fed's infamous bathroom break where he said he wanted to wait for the sun to go down when he was being beat by Davydenko. Back then it was assumed on here that he was "joking" and many of the Fed Fans were livid at the suggestion that it was anything less.

Can you imagine if Nadal had said such a thing?


So you think Fed wasn't joking ? Especially when the break was legal, non disruptive between the sets as allowed and he was back on time ?

You can only joke about something that was not meant to be gamesmanship in the first place. Exactly why Nadal doesn't "joke" about his MTOs in post match interviews. Let me know when Nadal makes a joke in his presser saying "He was playing very well, so I took an MTO to throw him off his rhythm".

sbengte
03-18-2012, 10:39 PM
FWIW , here is the official word from the ATP rulebook :

O. Toilet Break
1) A player may be permitted to leave the court for a toilet break. A player is entitled to one (1) toilet break during a best of three set match and two (2) toilet breaks during a best of five set match. Toilet breaks should be taken on a set break and can be used for no other purpose.

I cannot believe that it is 9 pages on this thread and people are not able to comprehend the difference between a break taken after a set within the permissible time and one taken in between games during a set (before opponent's serve, to boot). Talking about a valid between the sets break in the thread like this defeats the whole purpose of what is being talked about. No one even notices these breaks if they are taken after a set. However if taken between games, that too before an opponents' serve, it is another story altogether.

vllaznia
03-18-2012, 10:53 PM
FWIW , here is the official word from the ATP rulebook :

O. Toilet Break
1) A player may be permitted to leave the court for a toilet break. A player is entitled to one (1) toilet break during a best of three set match and two (2) toilet breaks during a best of five set match. Toilet breaks should be taken on a set break and can be used for no other purpose.

I cannot believe that it is 9 pages on this thread and people are not able to comprehend the difference between a break taken after a set within the permissible time and one taken in between games during a set (before opponent's serve, to boot). Talking about a valid between the sets break in the thread like this defeats the whole purpose of what is being talked about. No one even notices these breaks if they are taken after a set. However if taken between games, that too before an opponents' serve, it is another story altogether.

So he actually yet again broke the rules, i thought it was just gamesmanship.

yellowoctopus
03-18-2012, 10:55 PM
FWIW , here is the official word from the ATP rulebook :

O. Toilet Break
1) A player may be permitted to leave the court for a toilet break. A player is entitled to one (1) toilet break during a best of three set match and two (2) toilet breaks during a best of five set match. Toilet breaks should be taken on a set break and can be used for no other purpose.

I cannot believe that it is 9 pages on this thread and people are not able to comprehend the difference between a break taken after a set within the permissible time and one taken in between games during a set (before opponent's serve, to boot). Talking about a valid between the sets break in the thread like this defeats the whole purpose of what is being talked about.

Mr. Nadal would probably take the same stance on this and all the rules [that he is breaking] that it is 'is more the [interpretation] of the umpire, that's my [his] way to understand the rule'. In another word, if I (big I, not anyone else) can get away with it, it's acceptable.

Shameful, IMO.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2009/11/25/1259191956290/Rafael-Nadal-001.jpg

li0scc0
03-19-2012, 02:37 AM
We will probably learn Rafito has a kidney stone = loss, and need of bathroom break.

I can see the story now....
Nadal finally comes clean on urination issue.
Rafael Nadal, in his press conference with the media, said the issue that has been bothering him of late. "Yes, before Indian Wells I sit in a reclining chair. I rest, no? Rest needed for body, to prepare. And then I turn funny and feel awful need to, what is the word, go pee-pee? And this urge keep happening. I thought of not playing tournament, but could not let fans down. I fear this will happen so often. I want a special brace or wrap, but how you wrap bladder? Impossible, no?"

BeHappy
03-19-2012, 03:00 AM
One of my favourite features of this forum is "Nadalisms" like that written by posters like you. I particularly like Viva le BeuJeu's ones. :)

merwy
03-19-2012, 03:07 AM
I can see the story now....
Nadal finally comes clean on urination issue.
Rafael Nadal, in his press conference with the media, said the issue that has been bothering him of late. "Yes, before Indian Wells I sit in a reclining chair. I rest, no? Rest needed for body, to prepare. And then I turn funny and feel awful need to, what is the word, go pee-pee? And this urge keep happening. I thought of not playing tournament, but could not let fans down. I fear this will happen so often. I want a special brace or wrap, but how you wrap bladder? Impossible, no?"

Hahaha that's just hilarious man!:mrgreen:

SLD76
03-19-2012, 03:57 AM
I can see the story now....
Nadal finally comes clean on urination issue.
Rafael Nadal, in his press conference with the media, said the issue that has been bothering him of late. "Yes, before Indian Wells I sit in a reclining chair. I rest, no? Rest needed for body, to prepare. And then I turn funny and feel awful need to, what is the word, go pee-pee? And this urge keep happening. I thought of not playing tournament, but could not let fans down. I fear this will happen so often. I want a special brace or wrap, but how you wrap bladder? Impossible, no?"


Epic.

LOL

you win, Sir.

/thread

woodrow1029
03-19-2012, 07:43 AM
So he actually yet again broke the rules, i thought it was just gamesmanship.

He did not break the rules. The rule says SHOULD. If it's an emergency, then he can go.

dafinch
03-21-2012, 12:27 PM
How the heck can anyone know if he had to go or not? Honestly, I don't understand people complaining about the bathroom break. When nature calls, you can't hold it in. He didn't take that long and came right back out with no time delay. You think it's easy to keep playing if you have to do a #1?

Nobody knows for sure, of course, but one can go by prior history, and Nadal has a very long and pronounced history of injury and bathroom breaks that could be viewed as attempts to disrupt the opponent's momentum. It's the Boy Who Cried Wolf, only in reverse. The fact that he has been fined more than once for illegal coaching and admits in his autobiography that he received same during the 2010 US Open doesn't help matters.

lbjames23
03-21-2012, 12:48 PM
Didn't occur to me that Rafa took bathroom breaks habitually. MTOs though, yeah, sure.


These people also think they know tennis better than Rafa/Roger themselves; no surprise if they think that Rafa does everything on purpose, which should come as rather contradictory since they also assert that Rafa's as dumb as a rock. Next up: aliens built the pyramids, the US government faked the moon landing and set up 9/11.

the infamous moon landing is FAKE ! now everyone at my kids school knows about it. 911 is real tho

single_handed_champion
03-21-2012, 01:18 PM
I thought you are allowed to go to the bathroom if it is done within the changeover. I've seen it happen lots of times before. I think if you come back after the changeover ends, you lose a point, then game etc.

woodrow1029
03-21-2012, 01:50 PM
I thought you are allowed to go to the bathroom if it is done within the changeover. I've seen it happen lots of times before. I think if you come back after the changeover ends, you lose a point, then game etc.

The set break is definitely the preferred time to take a toilet break. If the player can't wait until the set break, it is then preferred to wait until before the player is about to serve (even if that means going before an even game). If it is an emergency, and the player has to go RIGHT THEN, they may be authorized to leave the court to use the bathroom. If they are authorized to leave, a bathroom break is reasonable time, and while they should be as fast as possible, they don't need to be back before the changeover time expires.

If the player has already used their allowed toilet breaks (for men, 1 for a best of 3 set match and 2 for a best of five set match), and he needs to go again, he may be allowed to leave the court, but warned that if he is not back before the end of the changeover/set break, he will be penalized under the Point Penalty System.

kiteboard
03-21-2012, 03:06 PM
Nobody knows for sure, of course, but one can go by prior history, and Nadal has a very long and pronounced history of injury and bathroom breaks that could be viewed as attempts to disrupt the opponent's momentum. It's the Boy Who Cried Wolf, only in reverse. The fact that he has been fined more than once for illegal coaching and admits in his autobiography that he received same during the 2010 US Open doesn't help matters.

Biggest psych artist on the tour: Nadal. Cheap, low class, junior moves, just like his apd orig. frame at 338g. I used to call him: Rat boy. Now I call him: The Butt pick kid.

JimF
03-24-2012, 11:02 AM
Doesn't Roger take bathroom breaks in the middle of sets too?

Never that I recall. Although Fed was criticized by some for taking a break after Davydenko had already taken his on a change over with Davy ahead at, I think it was, the Auzzie.

During the BNP semi, Fed actually asked "Do I have time?" during a rain break, and the chair asked him, "Can you wait?", so he didn't leave.

All-rounder
03-24-2012, 12:10 PM
10 pages of bickering for a 2 minute bathroom break....

kanamit
03-24-2012, 01:12 PM
It's the same arguments from the *******s everytime something like this happens: (a) if an ump doesn't enforce a clear rule, then there must not be a rule and therefore Rafa did not violate a rule. Or (b) everybody violates these rules, so it is unfair to gang up on Rafa when he does it.

It's always some tortured piece of logic constructed solely for the ad hoc purpose of defending Nadal. In order to see this clearly, just ask yourself, if somebody murders a stranger and tosses the stranger's body in the lake, but is never caught, does that mean that the murder was legal? What if the police department knows about it and chooses not to prosecute because the murderer is a powerful pillar of the community? Does it mean that the murder was legal then?

The logic is obviously laughable.

Crisstti
03-24-2012, 01:55 PM
I don't know. Please enlighten us when was the last time Fed took a bathroom break in the middle of a set ? I remember Nadal took one between games in his WTF 2011 RR match against Fish.

Who cares?. Not everyone has to do whatever Fed does.

Wrong. It happens every time ANYONE has a big lead in a match vs. Nadal.

That's just a lie.

Another pathetic hateful thread.

Tennis_Hands
03-24-2012, 05:12 PM
Who cares?. Not everyone has to do whatever Fed does.

Like serving on time?

Let us face it. You and other guys will buy ANY explanation, that will excuse Nadal's behavoiur, no matter what (and do not tell me, that you did not agree with everything Nadal says. It is only in those times, when it is purely theoretical situation, where you MAY express different view than the one Nadal has, if any). So, what is the point of trying to use logic, which is flawed? Keep yourself happy by continuing to agree with Nadal, but do not throw in explanations and then say "Who cares?" If you do not care about logic, why bother arguing at all?

It may come to you as a shock, but, usually, grown men can control themselves for a couple of minutes, if need be. Also, those urges do not come suddenly, unless you have some serious physical issue. I am saying this to show you, that there is logical reasoning behind the point, that Nadal choose that particular moment to go. So, if you are going to argue you'd better bring on something better than "I believe that, that is so". You explain why is Nadal not able to control himself, like most normal people do? In this particular situation, I do not see Nadal's behaviour as correct. He could have chosen any other moment in that set to use a bathroom break. He chooses exactly that moment. You see coincidence. I do not.

sbengte
03-24-2012, 10:21 PM
delete post

Crisstti
03-24-2012, 10:41 PM
Like serving on time?

Let us face it. You and other guys will buy ANY explanation, that will excuse Nadal's behavoiur, no matter what (and do not tell me, that you did not agree with everything Nadal says. It is only in those times, when it is purely theoretical situation, where you MAY express different view than the one Nadal has, if any). So, what is the point of trying to use logic, which is flawed? Keep yourself happy by continuing to agree with Nadal, but do not throw in explanations and then say "Who cares?" If you do not care about logic, why bother arguing at all?

It may come to you as a shock, but, usually, grown men can control themselves for a couple of minutes, if need be. Also, those urges do not come suddenly, unless you have some serious physical issue. I am saying this to show you, that there is logical reasoning behind the point, that Nadal choose that particular moment to go. So, if you are going to argue you'd better bring on something better than "I believe that, that is so". You explain why is Nadal not able to control himself, like most normal people do? In this particular situation, I do not see Nadal's behaviour as correct. He could have chosen any other moment in that set to use a bathroom break. He chooses exactly that moment. You see coincidence. I do not.

Serving time is not the issue of this thread.

Maybe he had been holding it for a while already?. Amazing the bitterness in this thread even though Fed won.

Tennis_Hands
03-25-2012, 02:22 AM
Serving time is not the issue of this thread.

Oh, really? :roll:

Who cares?. Not everyone has to do whatever Fed does.

Maybe he had been holding it for a while already?. Amazing the bitterness in this thread even though Fed won.

You mean, like it occured in his service game prior to that?:-? Do you see what you are getting yourself into? You have to look for all sorts of unprobable reasons, to try to explain what happened.

Facepalm at the bitterness comment.

pvaudio
03-25-2012, 02:34 AM
I can see the story now....
Nadal finally comes clean on urination issue.
Rafael Nadal, in his press conference with the media, said the issue that has been bothering him of late. "Yes, before Indian Wells I sit in a reclining chair. I rest, no? Rest needed for body, to prepare. And then I turn funny and feel awful need to, what is the word, go pee-pee? And this urge keep happening. I thought of not playing tournament, but could not let fans down. I fear this will happen so often. I want a special brace or wrap, but how you wrap bladder? Impossible, no?"
Post of the year so far :lol:

pvaudio
03-25-2012, 02:37 AM
It's the same arguments from the *******s everytime something like this happens: (a) if an ump doesn't enforce a clear rule, then there must not be a rule and therefore Rafa did not violate a rule. Or (b) everybody violates these rules, so it is unfair to gang up on Rafa when he does it.

It's always some tortured piece of logic constructed solely for the ad hoc purpose of defending Nadal. In order to see this clearly, just ask yourself, if somebody murders a stranger and tosses the stranger's body in the lake, but is never caught, does that mean that the murder was legal? What if the police department knows about it and chooses not to prosecute because the murderer is a powerful pillar of the community? Does it mean that the murder was legal then?

The logic is obviously laughable.
Already tried that argument. It's still the officials' fault apparently.

vive le beau jeu !
03-25-2012, 03:32 AM
I can see the story now....
Nadal finally comes clean on urination issue.
Rafael Nadal, in his press conference with the media, said the issue that has been bothering him of late. "Yes, before Indian Wells I sit in a reclining chair. I rest, no? Rest needed for body, to prepare. And then I turn funny and feel awful need to, what is the word, go pee-pee? And this urge keep happening. I thought of not playing tournament, but could not let fans down. I fear this will happen so often. I want a special brace or wrap, but how you wrap bladder? Impossible, no?"
this rusty peak injured golden bull... what a warrior ! :D

Netzroller
03-25-2012, 04:14 AM
It's the same arguments from the *******s everytime something like this happens: (a) if an ump doesn't enforce a clear rule, then there must not be a rule and therefore Rafa did not violate a rule. Or (b) everybody violates these rules, so it is unfair to gang up on Rafa when he does it.

It's always some tortured piece of logic constructed solely for the ad hoc purpose of defending Nadal. In order to see this clearly, just ask yourself, if somebody murders a stranger and tosses the stranger's body in the lake, but is never caught, does that mean that the murder was legal? What if the police department knows about it and chooses not to prosecute because the murderer is a powerful pillar of the community? Does it mean that the murder was legal then?

The logic is obviously laughable.
What is just as laughable is your example...

Murder is obvously a crime and in itself morally wrong. That's why there is no debate about whether a murderer needs to be punished.

The same isn't logic doesn't work for tennis rules. Taking 30s to serve is not in itself a morally despicable act. It is just wrong because by some rather arbitrary circumstances there just happens to be a rule that says you have to take no more than 20s. This is not necessarily a good rule, just because it exists. This rule was established to benefit tennis and it may or may not do this.
However, it is legit to question such rules whether they still make sense or not.
In case of many sports rules, there is obvously no need ot question them because it all works just fine. But in this case, there is enough evidence to suggest that is is more than time to call it into question. The officials seems to know this themselves, otherwise they wouldn't handle it the way they do.

It was to officials who decided to slow down the court and make tennis more physical in addition to the natural development of the sport due to poly strings etc..
Then it is the job of these officials to check whether their rules are still good under the new circumstances. They make the rules so they have a responsibility towards the players. Yet, they haven't done much to fulfill this responsibility.
Simply saying you guys have to be able to play for hours and obey that rule whether it harms the quality of the game or your health or whatever would be stupid.

I don't say it is good the way it is right now (rule constantly being broken and some random warnings). I think there just needs to be a debate about how it should be. Then we would have a good rule and it would be right to strictly enforce it.

edit: Let me therefore give you an more appropriate example: In the past there have also been laws saying that slavery is alright, women aren't allowed to vote and homosexuality needs to be punished. Now were these rules good, just because a long time ago someone though so? And wasn't many people ignoring them and protesting against them with valid arguments good evidence that is was time to overthink those laws? Or should we rather all be sheep just doing what someone says is right never calling it into question?

kanamit
03-25-2012, 12:07 PM
What is just as laughable is your example...

Murder is obvously a crime and in itself morally wrong. That's why there is no debate about whether a murderer needs to be punished.

The same isn't logic doesn't work for tennis rules. Taking 30s to serve is not in itself a morally despicable act. It is just wrong because by some rather arbitrary circumstances

You seem confused. Nowhere in my post did I talk about whether something was ethical or not. I was discussing whether the lack of enforcement of a rule means that a rule doesn't exist and therefore hasn't been broken. It might be that certain rules are themselves unethical for whatever reasons, but that's not the question we're addressing here.

there just happens to be a rule that says you have to take no more than 20s. This is not necessarily a good rule, just because it exists. This rule was established to benefit tennis and it may or may not do this.

Exactly, and if somebody takes longer than that time, he or she is violating the rules, regardless of whether there is enforcement of that rule.

However, it is legit to question such rules whether they still make sense or not. In case of many sports rules, there is obvously no need ot question them because it all works just fine. But in this case, there is enough evidence to suggest that is is more than time to call it into question. The officials seems to know this themselves, otherwise they wouldn't handle it the way they do.

So your argument is that there is a rule that players frequently violate, but you just don't like the rule -- therefore it is okay to violate it?

That's beside the point: the question is whether there is a rule even if it is not enforced in a particular case or set of cases. I am glad that you are now clarifying that YES, there is a rule, and that you like it when some players violate these rules because you think these rules are "dumb" or "wrong."

But let's not pretend it's not a violation of the rules.

I don't say it is good the way it is right now (rule constantly being broken and some random warnings). I think there just needs to be a debate about how it should be. Then we would have a good rule and it would be right to strictly enforce it.

I think rules should always be openly and carefully debated, but I do not think that rules should be violated or only selectively enforced.

West Coast Ace
03-26-2012, 03:34 AM
Great thread and opening post.

Typical Rafa acolytes deflecting responsibility, forgetting that our sport is based on honor and sportsmanship, not 'getting over'. This isnt Euro football or the NBA. Just like the time Rafa took an MTO (Hamburg?) yrs ago when Roger was stomping him on clay - Roger lost his rhythm and Rafa came back to win the next 6, the set and the match. Afterwards the look on his face showed that he knew he'd screwed up.

And then bringing up the fact that Roger 'walked slow' when returning from his between set bathroom break vs. Davy in the AO SF. Priceless.

namelessone
03-26-2012, 04:07 AM
After watching the match again, I have to say there was almost no delay. Nadal was back within 90 seconds or about...I dont think it affects anyone or anything.

Don't say this, it will ruin the whole thread.

In a way I'm glad Fed won because ***** would be spinning this just like RG 2011 situation if somehow Nadal managed to break Fed back at the end of the set(like Fed not consolidating a break against Nadal never happened before).
There are people on this board that still believe Fed lost the first set in RG 2011 final cause Nadal changed some tape on his foot, even though Rafa faced SP against him in the very next game.

The famed Hamburg example with the MTO, yeah,mastermind plan by Nadal there. People once again ignore that Fed blew the lead on his own mental woes against Nadal, not anything having to do with rhythm. I mean Fed lead 5-1 in the first(lost it 7-5) and 4-1 in the second(won it 6-7) set which kinda says it all. Two sets in which he had a good foothold both almost went to tiebreaks.

This is a repeating pattern with Fed against Nadal on clay, Nadal MTO or not, Fed can dominate, brutally even, stretches of the match but Nadal slowly comes back into it and Fed's consistency starts to go. That's why Fed has beaten(even bageled) Rafa in 2 out of 3 on clay but not in RG, even when Fed was at his peakiest peak. Take almost every Fedal encounter on clay and you will see this pattern time and time again, nothing to do with mto's.

SLD76
03-26-2012, 04:18 AM
Don't say this, it will ruin the whole thread.

In a way I'm glad Fed won because ***** would be spinning this just like RG 2011 situation if somehow Nadal managed to break Fed back at the end of the set(like Fed not consolidating a break against Nadal never happened before).
There are people on this board that still believe Fed lost the first set in RG 2011 final cause Nadal changed some tape on his foot, even though Rafa faced SP against him in the very next game.

The famed Hamburg example with the MTO, yeah,mastermind plan by Nadal there. People once again ignore that Fed blew the lead on his own mental woes against Nadal, not anything having to do with rhythm. I mean Fed lead 5-1 in the first(lost it 7-5) and 4-1 in the second(won it 6-7) set which kinda says it all. Two sets in which he had a good foothold both almost went to tiebreaks.

This is a repeating pattern with Fed against Nadal on clay, Nadal MTO or not, Fed can dominate, brutally even, stretches of the match but Nadal slowly comes back into it and Fed's consistency starts to go. That's why Fed has beaten(even bageled) Rafa in 2 out of 3 on clay but not in RG, even when Fed was at his peakiest peak. Take almost every Fedal encounter on clay and you will see this pattern time and time again, nothing to do with mto's.

Can you ever not write a thesis to defend nadal?

namelessone
03-26-2012, 04:34 AM
Can you ever not write a thesis to defend nadal?

Didn't realize 3 paragraphs make a thesis.

Even OddJack, who isn't exactly a Nadal fan to say the least, says that this is nothing. It's simple actually, Fed won and now his fans are nitpicking anything Nadal did in this match to create more pointless threads.

Nadal made it from 5-2 to 5-4 before that taking **** break so he killed his own momentum according to the "breaking the rhythm" theory that so many Fed fans choose to follow.

namelessone
03-26-2012, 04:38 AM
Nadal has ruined the sport. Yes, he can play great tennis alright, but he's a shamful figure and the biggest cheater in the history of tennis. Quite frankly, I don't understand how this guy isn't banned from the sport.

Mallorcan Mafia, dude. Mallorcan Mafia.

SLD76
03-26-2012, 04:38 AM
Win or lose..it was a questionable bathroom break for nadal, to go along with a career;s worth of questionable mto's, tape changes on feet, game delaying, and making players wait at the net.

namelessone
03-26-2012, 04:44 AM
Exactly. The length of the delay doesn't matter when you play against Federer who is very prone to total meltdowns when Nadal does his MTOs. It was clearly a mind game. Nadal didn't want to make it a MTO this because that would be too obvious. Nadal is not as dumb as he looks or sounds.

Wow, this is pretty anti-Fed.

You are saying that Fed is so mentally frail, walks such a tight mental rope against Nadal that almost anything that disturbs his "rhythm" during a match makes him go on a mental walkabout?

And since Nadal is the biggest cheater/faker/possibly the devil, why the hell wouldn't he take a MTO at that point? I learned from TW that he has no respect for Fed, he just fakes it.

I heard in this thread that he had no problem taking away Fed's rhythm in Hamburg 08 final. Come to think of it, why didn't he take a MTO in the first set of the IW SF this year? Oh I know, here comes the standard explanation - "Nadal knew he could nothing against this Fed so he didn't bother this time" :)

namelessone
03-26-2012, 04:48 AM
He did not break the rules. The rule says SHOULD. If it's an emergency, then he can go.

I think we should all listen to this guy as far as rules are concerned.

SLD76
03-26-2012, 04:50 AM
I think we should all listen to this guy as far as rules are concerned.

missing the forest for the trees again.

SLD76
03-26-2012, 04:51 AM
put it like this...nadal is serving for the match..rain delay.

all of a sudden, at the moment match point, djoker decides he needs to hit the head.

fair play..or questionable?

I GUARANTEE every Nad fan on the board would be calling b.s. on joker choosing
to use the bathroom right then.

namelessone
03-26-2012, 04:55 AM
missing the forest for the trees again.

Isn't woodrow an actual umpire or am I mistaken?

Is he a ******* in disguise?

I think I'll trust his word on this one.

SLD76
03-26-2012, 05:00 AM
Isn't woodrow an actual umpire or am I mistaken?

Is he a ******* in disguise?

I think I'll trust his word on this one.

again, the question isnt so much, is it legal

its ..thats a curious time for a break, no?

how many players ask for a break, mto, bathroom visit etc on match pt?

namelessone
03-26-2012, 05:03 AM
put it like this...nadal is serving for the match..rain delay.

all of a sudden, at the moment match point, djoker decides he needs to hit the head.

fair play..or questionable?

I GUARANTEE every Nad fan on the board would be calling b.s. on joker choosing
to use the bathroom right then.

Have you ever seen me call BS on anything Djoker did(like that MTO that some Nadal fans accused him of in early 4th set USO final) of the like?

CMM
03-26-2012, 05:04 AM
its ..thats a curious time for a break, no?

There was no break.

namelessone
03-26-2012, 05:04 AM
again, the question isnt so much, is it legal

its ..thats a curious time for a break, no?

how many players ask for a break, mto, bathroom visit etc on match pt?

I would think so, considering that Nadal was getting into the groove at that point.

SLD76
03-26-2012, 05:06 AM
I would think so, considering that Nadal was getting into the groove at that point.

bathroom break.

yes, he was in such a groove it was match point.

CMM
03-26-2012, 05:14 AM
bathroom break.

yes, he was in such a groove it was match point.

What? He went to the bathroom during the break between games and came back in time, without delaying the play.

SLD76
03-26-2012, 05:21 AM
What? He went to the bathroom during the break between games and came back in time, without delaying the play.

my bad, I meant to type, serving for the match..you know, when most players choose to go to the bathroom, as someone is about to serve for the match.

SLD76
03-26-2012, 05:21 AM
just like his curious foot-wrapping break as Fed as about to serve for the first set during the FO.

And best believe he would have taken longer had not the Ump warned him not to dawdle.

namelessone
03-26-2012, 05:24 AM
my bad, I meant to type, serving for the match..you know, when most players choose to go to the bathroom, as someone is about to serve for the match.

You could look at it the other way as well. Nadal was coming back into the match from 5-2 to 5-4 and there would have been immediate pressure on Fed to close it out against a better(as opposed to the beginning of the match at least) Nadal. As it stands, Nadal took his **** break right when he was starting to get some footing in the set.

namelessone
03-26-2012, 05:27 AM
just like his curious foot-wrapping break as Fed as about to serve for the first set during the FO.

And best believe he would have taken longer had not the Ump warned him not to dawdle.

If memory serves me right, in the game right after Fed had a SP. Great tactic there. :oops:

SLD76
03-26-2012, 05:29 AM
If memory serves me right, in the game right after Fed had a SP. Great tactic there. :oops:

yes, and as Fed was about to serve for the set.

and it worked, as fed got tight and got broken.

I can see why Rafa tried it again.

vllaznia
03-26-2012, 05:29 AM
If memory serves me right, in the game right after Fed had a SP. Great tactic there. :oops:

Yeah right before Federer was going to serve for the set, bad tactic there.:oops:

CMM
03-26-2012, 05:32 AM
my bad, I meant to type, serving for the match..you know, when most players choose to go to the bathroom, as someone is about to serve for the match.

He went to the bathroom when Fed was sitting on his chair. What happened after that is irrelevant.
His "curious" foot-wrapping break... There was no break. If Fed can't stand seeing the trainer on court he should have closed his eyes.

dudeski
03-26-2012, 05:58 AM
Wow, this is pretty anti-Fed.

You are saying that Fed is so mentally frail, walks such a tight mental rope against Nadal that almost anything that disturbs his "rhythm" during a match makes him go on a mental walkabout?

And since Nadal is the biggest cheater/faker/possibly the devil, why the hell wouldn't he take a MTO at that point? I learned from TW that he has no respect for Fed, he just fakes it.

I heard in this thread that he had no problem taking away Fed's rhythm in Hamburg 08 final. Come to think of it, why didn't he take a MTO in the first set of the IW SF this year? Oh I know, here comes the standard explanation - "Nadal knew he could nothing against this Fed so he didn't bother this time" :)

Yes. Exactly. Inspite of all your sarcasm that's exactly how it is.

sbengte
03-26-2012, 06:15 AM
Come to think of it, why didn't he take a MTO in the first set of the IW SF this year?

Good point ! For that alone he deserves this year's sportsmanship award.

namelessone
03-26-2012, 06:16 AM
Ok, I looked it up online cause I didn't remember the "event" all the way(heck, it was nearly one year ago) but Nadal got the tape adjusted before he was serving to stay in the set, at 2-5 for Fed. So Nadal changed the tape before his own service game and was so brilliant at it that he faced a SP which he saved to hold for 3-5. Then Fed was probably distracted by something and got broken by Nadal and you know how the set ended.

Now, if this wasn't a MTO(not officially anyway) and it wasn't even before his opponent's service game, why are people "crediting" Nadal with it?

namelessone
03-26-2012, 06:16 AM
Good point ! For that alone he deserves this year's sportsmanship award.

Only if Berdych votes.

Emet74
03-26-2012, 06:42 AM
OK, I bothered to look up the rules:

Toilet Visit
Case: In a best of three (3) set match, a player has used his one toilet
visit. The player informs the chair umpire that at the next changeover
he would like to take another toilet visit prior to his serving.
Decision: The chair umpire may allow a player to leave the court
but must inform the player that any delay beyond the 90 seconds
will be penalized in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule.

So it appears the ump can let a player leave for the restroom during the 90-second changeover. Sounds like it's best to do it before your own serve, but as long as you're back in time I don't see the big deal.

If Nadal took more than the 90 seconds he should have gotten a time violation, but as far as everyone's said he was back in time.

I have no idea why his being in the bathroom would/should have distracted/upset Fed.

Nonissue as far as I'm concerned and I'm a Fed fan as most of you know.

dudeski
03-26-2012, 06:44 AM
The fact remains that Nadal knows that Fed is mentally weak and he takes advantage of it. It's that simple. Obviously he can`t take an MTO every single time they play because that would be too obvious. Also, indoors Nadal knows that Fed is too good so stupid tricks won`t work. On other surfaces Nadal knows that Fed is always one distraction away (fireworks, MTO, washroom break etc) from turning into Murray.

woodrow1029
03-26-2012, 07:12 AM
OK, I bothered to look up the rules:

Toilet Visit
Case: In a best of three (3) set match, a player has used his one toilet
visit. The player informs the chair umpire that at the next changeover
he would like to take another toilet visit prior to his serving.
Decision: The chair umpire may allow a player to leave the court
but must inform the player that any delay beyond the 90 seconds
will be penalized in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule.

So it appears the ump can let a player leave for the restroom during the 90-second changeover. Sounds like it's best to do it before your own serve, but as long as you're back in time I don't see the big deal.

If Nadal took more than the 90 seconds he should have gotten a time violation, but as far as everyone's said he was back in time.

I have no idea why his being in the bathroom would/should have distracted/upset Fed.

Nonissue as far as I'm concerned and I'm a Fed fan as most of you know.

I already had said what the rule was. The rule you quoted is not relevant for this situation though. The rule you quoted is for an "additional toilet break" after the player has already used the one bathroom break he is entitled to.

But you are right. It is a nonissue, because the toilet break was not against the rules.

Emet74
03-26-2012, 07:25 AM
I already had said what the rule was. The rule you quoted is not relevant for this situation though. The rule you quoted is for an "additional toilet break" after the player has already used the one bathroom break he is entitled to.

But you are right. It is a nonissue, because the toilet break was not against the rules.


Well I thought it was the closest to the situation as it at least referred to the possibility of taking the break at some time other than set break and explained what the limitation is - must be w/in 90 seconds.

woodrow1029
03-26-2012, 08:41 AM
Well I thought it was the closest to the situation as it at least referred to the possibility of taking the break at some time other than set break and explained what the limitation is - must be w/in 90 seconds.

But an authorized toilet break does not need to be completed in 90 seconds. It is a "reasonable time" break. The 90 second limitation on toilet visits only applies to additional toilet breaks after their one has been used.

As I said earlier, it is definitely preferred that an authorized toilet break be used at a setbreak or before their own serve. But, if it is an emergency, they can use it at any time. And they have reasonable time to go.

Emet74
03-26-2012, 09:26 AM
But an authorized toilet break does not need to be completed in 90 seconds. It is a "reasonable time" break. The 90 second limitation on toilet visits only applies to additional toilet breaks after their one has been used.

As I said earlier, it is definitely preferred that an authorized toilet break be used at a setbreak or before their own serve. But, if it is an emergency, they can use it at any time. And they have reasonable time to go.

I don't see support in the rules for that. The rules say the authorize break "should" be at the set break and I don't see where emergencies are discussed.

Ana Ivanovic was penalized when she took an emergency bathroom break before her opponant's serve: http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=5685361

Are the WTA rules different?

TheTruth
03-26-2012, 10:52 AM
So you think Fed wasn't joking ? Especially when the break was legal, non disruptive between the sets as allowed and he was back on time ?You can only joke about something that was not meant to be gamesmanship in the first place. Exactly why Nadal doesn't "joke" about his MTOs in post match interviews. Let me know when Nadal makes a joke in his presser saying "He was playing very well, so I took an MTO to throw him off his rhythm".

Same case with Nadal. What I'm questioning is why the big difference? How can some posters say one person is cheating, and the other person was joking?

I don't know if Fed was joking or not. How on earth would I be privy to that? I'm just addressing the double standards used in this post.

And, judging by your post to me, you are getting offended over nothing.

TheTruth
03-26-2012, 10:58 AM
What is just as laughable is your example...

Murder is obvously a crime and in itself morally wrong. That's why there is no debate about whether a murderer needs to be punished.

The same isn't logic doesn't work for tennis rules. Taking 30s to serve is not in itself a morally despicable act. It is just wrong because by some rather arbitrary circumstances there just happens to be a rule that says you have to take no more than 20s. This is not necessarily a good rule, just because it exists. This rule was established to benefit tennis and it may or may not do this.
However, it is legit to question such rules whether they still make sense or not.
In case of many sports rules, there is obvously no need ot question them because it all works just fine. But in this case, there is enough evidence to suggest that is is more than time to call it into question. The officials seems to know this themselves, otherwise they wouldn't handle it the way they do.

It was to officials who decided to slow down the court and make tennis more physical in addition to the natural development of the sport due to poly strings etc..
Then it is the job of these officials to check whether their rules are still good under the new circumstances. They make the rules so they have a responsibility towards the players. Yet, they haven't done much to fulfill this responsibility.
Simply saying you guys have to be able to play for hours and obey that rule whether it harms the quality of the game or your health or whatever would be stupid.

I don't say it is good the way it is right now (rule constantly being broken and some random warnings). I think there just needs to be a debate about how it should be. Then we would have a good rule and it would be right to strictly enforce it.

edit: Let me therefore give you an more appropriate example: In the past there have also been laws saying that slavery is alright, women aren't allowed to vote and homosexuality needs to be punished. Now were these rules good, just because a long time ago someone though so? And wasn't many people ignoring them and protesting against them with valid arguments good evidence that is was time to overthink those laws? Or should we rather all be sheep just doing what someone says is right never calling it into question?

Considering the physicality and power of the modern game, you'd think people would realize the need for change. If rules were never called into question we'd be living in a much different society. This pragmatism is annoying. The rule needs to be changed.

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-26-2012, 11:00 AM
Same case with Nadal. What I'm questioning is why the big difference? How can some posters say one person is cheating, and the other person was joking?

I don't know if Fed was joking or not. How on earth would I be privy to that? I'm just addressing the double standards used in this post.

And, judging by your post to me, you are getting offended over nothing.

No one will know. The only reason people are coming down on Rafa harder is because he has a history of taking MTOs at seemingly adverse times. That's why. How often do you see others taking these breaks? But Rafa is always injured and wins when he doesn't lose 10,000 vamoses and 40,000 fist pumps.

TheTruth
03-26-2012, 11:06 AM
No one will know. The only reason people are coming down on Rafa harder is because he has a history of taking MTOs at seemingly adverse times. That's why. How often do you see others taking these breaks? But Rafa is always injured and wins when he doesn't lose 10,000 vamoses and 40,000 fist pumps.

People are coming down on Rafa because that's what they do, period. Rafa does not have a history of MTO's at seemingly adverse times, that's just how some people choose to view it. And, why wouldn't an oft-injured, won't play til his 30's with such a history of injuries not take MTO's? It doesn't make sense to me. Some people take the slightest thing about Nadal and make a big case about it.

Woodrow has already tried to explain this rule, and yet many posters are still crying "crucify him." It's just sad, imo.

woodrow1029
03-26-2012, 11:16 AM
I don't see support in the rules for that. The rules say the authorize break "should" be at the set break and I don't see where emergencies are discussed.

Ana Ivanovic was penalized when she took an emergency bathroom break before her opponant's serve: http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=5685361

Are the WTA rules different?

Yes the WTA rules are different.

I don't understand why some people can't see the difference between "should" and "shall" or "must."

woodrow1029
03-26-2012, 11:18 AM
Here's the WTA rule

b. Toilet Breaks
Toilet breaks should be taken on a set break. However, if a toilet
break is taken during a set, it must be taken before the player’s
own service game. If the player has been authorized to leave the
court before her opponent’s service game or during her own service
game once started, then the player is leaving the court on her
own time and will be penalized with back-to-back Time Violations
until the earlier of the time she returns to play, is due to serve, or
the score reaches a set break.

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-26-2012, 11:53 AM
People are coming down on Rafa because that's what they do, period. Rafa does not have a history of MTO's at seemingly adverse times, that's just how some people choose to view it. And, why wouldn't an oft-injured, won't play til his 30's with such a history of injuries not take MTO's? It doesn't make sense to me. Some people take the slightest thing about Nadal and make a big case about it.

Woodrow has already tried to explain this rule, and yet many posters are still crying "crucify him." It's just sad, imo.

The Fish one in Cincy? Del Potro at Wimbledon? Petzschner at Wimbledon in 2010?

Fish was before Fish's serve as was the Petzschner when Nadal as down 2 sets to 1. Nothing wrong with taking an MTO before your opponent is to serve? Nothing gamesmanship about that? He was down a break against Fish and was down 2 sets to 1 against Petzschner. How about when he felt like he crushed his foot against Del Potro and then proceeded to become a jumping rabbit? I agree some are overly hard on Rafa, but a good deal of it is brought on by his antics and tactics on court.

Emet74
03-26-2012, 12:13 PM
Yes the WTA rules are different.

I don't understand why some people can't see the difference between "should" and "shall" or "must."

Fair enough. But in the match I could hear Nadal asking if he could leave the court and the ump saying sth like "you need to hurry."

Since I think Nadal was back w/in the 90 seconds I have no problem w/ his break as I said earlier. But if he'd caused measurable delay of Fed's serve I think that would have been wrong on his part and I don't think the ump should have allowed it unless Nadal was in some SERIOUS distress.

TheTruth
03-26-2012, 12:55 PM
The Fish one in Cincy? Del Potro at Wimbledon? Petzschner at Wimbledon in 2010?

Fish was before Fish's serve as was the Petzschner when Nadal as down 2 sets to 1. Nothing wrong with taking an MTO before your opponent is to serve? Nothing gamesmanship about that? He was down a break against Fish and was down 2 sets to 1 against Petzschner. How about when he felt like he crushed his foot against Del Potro and then proceeded to become a jumping rabbit? I agree some are overly hard on Rafa, but a good deal of it is brought on by his antics and tactics on court.

I disagree totally with the Petzschner one, especially since Petzschner himself denied it and didn't allow himself to be baited on that one. I also remember both Petzschner and del Potro taking MTO's in those matches. IMO, many players take MTO's and only Nadal is ever "called out" on it. For this reason I see it more as unfounded bashing.

I watch almost all of Nadal's matches and statistically the number of MTO's vs. career matches played is miniscule.

I am not aware of the one with Fish.

Juan Ma Del Pony
03-26-2012, 01:03 PM
^^OK I love Rafa as my 2nd fave ATP player, but that one against DelPo at Wimbly last year was 8 minutes BEFORE the 1st set tiebreak right after DelPo had gained some momentum going into the tiebreak. The foot problem seemed to come out of nowhere and didn't stop him from running around like a bunny rabbit for the rest of the match.

DelPo's MTO in that same match was a result of him slipping and falling later on in the match and having to get hip treatment as a result, off-court. It was clear where DelPo's MTO need came from, but it certainly wasn't clear to me where Rafa's foot problem mysteriously came from right before the 1st set tiebreak which Nadal proceeded to win by running around like a bunny rabbit.

As for the other matches, I cannot comment as I don't remember, but I tend to agree that Rafa is very...shall we say....strategic about his MTO's.

Clarky21
03-26-2012, 01:12 PM
^^OK I love Rafa as my 2nd fave ATP player, but that one against DelPo at Wimbly last year was 8 minutes BEFORE the 1st set tiebreak right after DelPo had gained some momentum going into the tiebreak. The foot problem seemed to come out of nowhere and didn't stop him from running around like a bunny rabbit for the rest of the match.

DelPo's MTO in that same match was a result of him slipping and falling during his own service game later on in the match and having to get hip treatment as a result, off-court. It was clear where DelPo's MTO need came from, but it certainly wasn't clear to me where Rafa's foot problem mysteriously came from right before the 1st set tiebreak which Nadal proceeded to win by running around like a bunny rabbit.

As for the other matches, I cannot comment as I don't remember, but I tend to agree that Rafa is very...shall we say....strategic about his MTO's.



Nadal did not take that MTO to throw Delpo off. If Nadal had meant to break Delpo's momentum,he sure picked the wrong time to do it considering he had just hit a fabulous dtl fh to get a set point/break point right before it happened. After that he did not win another point until he was iirc,0-3 down in the tiebreaker.

Mike Sams
03-26-2012, 01:16 PM
Nadal and Djokovic are both big-time fakers. Djokovic acts like he's about to fall over any second and Nadal makes it seem like he's on the brink of death in a lot of his matches with his fans acting like he summoned superhuman powers to get the win.
What's even funnier is Nadal accusing Djokovic of faking. :lol:

Biscuitmcgriddleson
03-26-2012, 01:17 PM
I disagree totally with the Petzschner one, especially since Petzschner himself denied it and didn't allow himself to be baited on that one. I also remember both Petzschner and del Potro taking MTO's in those matches. IMO, many players take MTO's and only Nadal is ever "called out" on it. For this reason I see it more as unfounded bashing.

I watch almost all of Nadal's matches and statistically the number of MTO's vs. career matches played is miniscule.

I am not aware of the one with Fish.

http://goo.gl/7EinP

Petzschner didn't get baited into the argument on whether or not Nadal engages in gamesmanship. We aren't talking about medical time outs, but the time at which he chooses to take them. If you say that MTOs are such a rarity then that only strengthen's the argument for it being a gamesmanship issue because he appears to take a disproportionate amount of them before his opponent's serve.


Addition:

http://goo.gl/mvzZj

See what i mean about him taking MTOs before his opponent's serve? I wonder what his MTO average(MTO/# of matches) per match is, I'd be willing to be it's higher than just about anyone else on tour.
I wonder if anyone has ever done a full accounting of the MTOs that Nadal has taken and when he took them. It would be interesting to see if he takes a majority of them when he is down in a match opposed to up in a match.