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View Full Version : Djokovic a weak returner?


BeHappy
03-18-2012, 09:56 AM
The players he loses to tend to be big servers (that's when he loses at all).

Obviously he lost to Isner recently and was taken to 5 sets against him in Davis Cup.

He's lost 5 of his last 7 matches against Roddick.

4-5 Losing record against Tsonga, including a loss in 2011.

1-1 against Karlovic.

We all saw him lose to Safin on grass in 2009.

We saw Mardy Fish push him very hard in Cincinnati.

etc etc.

Now he doesn't lose to anyone at all very often, but when he does, it tends to be against big servers. A bit like Federer in 2006 with defensive players like Nadal, Murray, Canas etc. Big servers are the match up Djokovic likes the least.

Ico
03-18-2012, 10:02 AM
When did Djokovic lose to Tsonga this year?

BeHappy
03-18-2012, 10:04 AM
When did Djokovic lose to Tsonga this year?

Who said he did? Edit: sorry my mistake, a typo, 2011.

Ico
03-18-2012, 10:08 AM
Even in 2011, Djokovic didn't really lose to Tsonga. It was a walkover in Paris if you're counting that. Back to the point of the thread, I'd disagree that Djokovic is a weak returner. If anything, I'd say he's one of the best in the game.

BeHappy
03-18-2012, 10:10 AM
Even in 2011, Djokovic didn't really lose to Tsonga. It was a walkover in Paris if you're counting that. Back to the point of the thread, I'd disagree that Djokovic is a weak returner. If anything, I'd say he's one of the best in the game.

And yet, when he loses, it's usually to big servers.

kiki
03-18-2012, 10:11 AM
He is no Jimmy Connors, but does pretty well.Today, since nobody is coming to the net, it is not possible to even detect if somebody is a good or bad returner  

monfed
03-18-2012, 12:37 PM
One could argue that it's much harder to make meaningful returns to awkward kick serves compared to blocking returns to bombs. It comes down to what you define as the more challenging.

Mainad
03-18-2012, 12:45 PM
And yet, when he loses, it's usually to big servers.

In the last 12 months he's lost to Federer, Murray (twice), Nishikori, Ferrer, Tipsarevic, Del Potro and Isner. Only the last 2 are known as BigServers/Hitters.

CMM
03-18-2012, 12:45 PM
Is this a joke?? :shock:

TMF
03-18-2012, 12:48 PM
He is no Jimmy Connors, but does pretty well.Today, since nobody is coming to the net, it is not possible to even detect if somebody is a good or bad returner  

And Jimmy never faced Ivo or Isner. Big difference.

Fed Kennedy
03-18-2012, 12:58 PM
Hes the best in the game, what are you gonna do when its coming 140plus mph out wide? John just got hot..

Clarky21
03-18-2012, 01:07 PM
Is this for real? Djesus has one of the best return games going right now. In no way shape or form is he a weak returner. If you want to see what a weak returner really looks like watch Nadal.

kiki
03-18-2012, 01:14 PM
And Jimmy never faced Ivo or Isner. Big difference.

Nope, he faced Newcombe,Tanner,Curren,Becker...thank you for reminding

BeHappy
03-18-2012, 01:45 PM
In the last 12 months he's lost to Federer, Murray (twice), Nishikori, Ferrer, Tipsarevic, Del Potro and Isner. Only the last 2 are known as BigServers/Hitters.

And all but the last two were injuries/tanking.

zagor
03-18-2012, 01:49 PM
The players he loses to tend to be big servers (that's when he loses at all).

Obviously he lost to Isner recently and was taken to 5 sets against him in Davis Cup.

He's lost 5 of his last 7 matches against Roddick.

4-5 Losing record against Tsonga, including a loss in 2011.

1-1 against Karlovic.

We all saw him lose to Safin on grass in 2009.

We saw Mardy Fish push him very hard in Cincinnati.

etc etc.

Now he doesn't lose to anyone at all very often, but when he does, it tends to be against big servers. A bit like Federer in 2006 with defensive players like Nadal, Murray, Canas etc. Big servers are the match up Djokovic likes the least.

Did you watch the match? Novak didn't lose because of his ROS, he got plenty of Isner's serves back.

Novak's problems were related to his own serve and that from the baseline he played right into Isner's hands.

Mainad
03-18-2012, 11:30 PM
In the last 12 months he's lost to Federer, Murray (twice), Nishikori, Ferrer, Tipsarevic, Del Potro and Isner. Only the last 2 are known as BigServers/Hitters.

And all but the last two were injuries/tanking.

Lol..so he tanked the FO semi against Federer did he? Why? Was he scared of meeting Nadal in the final? And why would he tank the Dubai semi against Murray? Was he scared of meeting Fed in the final? And didn't he collapse when playing Del Potro in DC? So why doesn't that one count as an injury?

Fact remains, the majority of players he lost to in the last 12 months were not Big Servers/ Hitters whatever excuses you want to make for him.

SLD76
03-19-2012, 12:39 AM
Did you watch the match? Novak didn't lose because of his ROS, he got plenty of Isner's serves back.

Novak's problems were related to his own serve and that from the baseline he played right into Isner's hands.

One of the worst tactical matches I have ever seen Djoker play.

It was baffling.

And I could see if he was being bullied around the court and had no choice, but most rallies he was in control and just/......screwed around, lol.

Wilander Fan
03-19-2012, 01:18 AM
I can see Isner being a nightmare matchup for Nadal since his topspin shots will go right into Isner's strike zone.

ChanceEncounter
03-19-2012, 02:06 AM
All this proves is that there are certain serves that are simply too good for any returner. There's not much you can do against a big server that gets hot and smacks 140 mph bombs out wide or down the T.

ledwix
03-19-2012, 02:11 AM
Djokovic is one of the best returners of all time. One of the reasons he was able to win the Australian Open this year was that he perplexed Nadal with a bunch of laser beam returns a foot or less from the baseline.

A big server, when on fire, can win a couple of tiebreaks against anyone. And that's what Isner did...he won a couple of tiebreaks.

SLD76
03-19-2012, 02:23 AM
I can see Isner being a nightmare matchup for Nadal since his topspin shots will go right into Isner's strike zone.

I was thinking the same thing, pondering what would have happened had nadal made the final.

well for one, we know rafa would stand like 20 years behind the baseline to return serve, so one wonders if isner would have abused him with the out wide serve.

also, I noticed Isner's game plan. He played passive on the return game, standing way behind the baseline and getting the ball in playing, letting the server be the attacker, knowing that if they make a few errors, its compounds the pressure on them to hold serve. And on the serve, he would be aggressive, pounding on early floater returns.

However, agaisnt Roger I knew that would not bode well for him...roger has too much variety and aggressive precision to let him get away with that pusher b.s. Isner is not in the same league as gilles simon, djoker or rafa or murray when it comes to pushing.

I also think that Rafa would have run Isner ragged, bullying him with the FH.

Honestly, I think the result would have been the same. Rafa in 3, maybe 2.

li0scc0
03-19-2012, 03:12 AM
And Jimmy never faced Ivo or Isner. Big difference.

Jimmy faced Boris and Slobodan.

BeHappy
03-19-2012, 03:24 AM
Isner hit 20 aces past Djokovic.

Just 4 against Federer.

EVen allowing the extra set played in the Djokovic semi final, Djokovic is clearly a weak returner.

joechiang
03-19-2012, 05:23 AM
I clearly remember Djokovic was considered as the best returner after the AO final,only because he is good at returning Nadal's serve.That's very interesting.

batz
03-19-2012, 06:13 AM
Isner hit 20 aces past Djokovic.

Just 4 against Federer.

EVen allowing the extra set played in the Djokovic semi final, Djokovic is clearly a weak returner.

Yep - he's such a weak returner that he leads the field for return games won in 2012.

phnx90
03-19-2012, 06:14 AM
Is this for real? Djesus has one of the best return games going right now. In no way shape or form is he a weak returner. If you want to see what a weak returner really looks like watch Nadal.

This.

That said, at one point back in the day, Nadal apparently was one of the better if not one of the best returners on tour, so what happened?

bluegrasser
03-19-2012, 06:14 AM
To me, ' King Fed" is the best returner in the game..

phnx90
03-19-2012, 06:19 AM
Isner hit 20 aces past Djokovic.

Just 4 against Federer.

EVen allowing the extra set played in the Djokovic semi final, Djokovic is clearly a weak returner.

Returning flat bombs are more reflex-intensive than returning kick and slice serves.

Volleying is reflex-intensive and it's generally acceptable to say that Federer leads Djokovic in this department.

Perhaps the fact that Federer is a better volleyer has something to do with this.

monfed
03-19-2012, 06:42 AM
Returning flat bombs are more reflex-intensive than returning kick and slice serves.

Volleying is reflex-intensive and it's generally acceptable to say that Federer leads Djokovic in this department.

Perhaps the fact that Federer is a better volleyer has something to do with this.

volley/reflex, egg/chicken, ipso facto which comes first phnx? :)
And why do I pronounce your nick as sphinx without the S?

phnx90
03-19-2012, 06:59 AM
volley/reflex, egg/chicken, ipso facto which comes first phnx? :)
And why do I pronounce your nick as sphinx without the S?

Reflexes → volleys/ROS
Egg → chicken

phoenix (I had a thing for Greek mythology back in primary/secondary school and it doesn't sound particularly childish, still...I hope, so it's a go-to username when I can't think of a good one :P)

monfed
03-19-2012, 08:07 AM
Reflexes → volleys/ROS
Egg → chicken



volleys/ROS --> Reflexes

Chicken --> Egg

J/k sphinx.



phoenix (I had a thing for Greek mythology back in primary/secondary school and it doesn't sound particularly childish, still...I hope, so it's a go-to username when I can't think of a good one :P)

Sounds good, but sphinx is gonna be a little hard to shake off so I'll try. ;)

jackson vile
03-19-2012, 09:37 AM
Only on TTW can Novak go from one of the best returners in history, to a weak returner. Well done, well done...

BeHappy
03-19-2012, 10:16 AM
Only on TTW can Novak go from one of the best returners in history, to a weak returner. Well done, well done...

I've never considered him a particularly good returner, but still, I'm just saying that it's the weakest part of his game, not a weakness. I mean losing 5 of the last 7 matches with Roddick? He was ranked way above Roddick when they played all those matches.

TMF
03-19-2012, 10:44 AM
Nope, he faced Newcombe,Tanner,Curren,Becker...thank you for reminding

Not in the same league with ivo and Isner.

kiki
03-19-2012, 11:29 AM
Not in the same league with ivo and Isner.


bahahahahaha...do you read their records?...of course, Ivo and Issner just have one shot, nothing else...and still, in the weakest era of pro sports, many people think could make top 5  

in the 70s and 80s, theyd rank no higher than Pfister,Sadri,Dibley or Carnahan 

jokinla
03-19-2012, 01:38 PM
No, Isner is just an insane server.

Daized
03-19-2012, 01:40 PM
Djokovic is not a weak returner, he is just often quite passive in baseline rallies against most people. He does not play with the same aggressiveness that he does against Federer against everybody else. So when a server like Isner is also removing his game (Making you play a lot of deep balls) by acing him with huge 140 mph servers consistently, then his game plan kind of just falls apart as he doesn't do enough to dictate in general.

kiki
03-19-2012, 03:17 PM
TMF never heard of the GE journeymen that would be top 5 today:

Pfister,Amaya,Seguso,Dibley,Saviano,Vant Hof...big serves like Issner and Karlovic, the new " discoveries"...JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJJAJAJAJAJAJAJJAJAJ AJAJAJAJAAJ

ALL IN
03-19-2012, 04:47 PM
Jimmy faced Boris and Slobodan.

Becker and Zivojinovic never came remotely close to 140mph. They'd ace 95% of the time they came close to 130. Connors returns 120 mph serves well. So do most of the players on tour in today's game.

mcenroefan
03-19-2012, 05:22 PM
Nole is a great returner....better than either Fed or Rafa.

The-Champ
03-19-2012, 05:42 PM
Nole is a great returner....better than either Fed or Rafa.

Nole is great at returning wta serves like Nadal's.

Federer is great at returning huge serves.

Nadal, the weakest returner of the three is so lucky, he has never lost a match against either Isner or Karlovic.

TMF
03-19-2012, 06:29 PM
bahahahahaha...do you read their records?...of course, Ivo and Issner just have one shot, nothing else...and still, in the weakest era of pro sports, many people think could make top 5  

in the 70s and 80s, theyd rank no higher than Pfister,Sadri,Dibley or Carnahan 

I'm not talking about records or career achievements, but only the serve. Ivo & Isner are better than them despite playing in an era where players return better than the past generations.

TMF
03-19-2012, 06:33 PM
No, Isner is just an insane server.
You have to excuse kiki since he didn't watch a single IW match.


Becker and Zivojinovic never came remotely close to 140mph. They'd ace 95% of the time they came close to 130. Connors returns 120 mph serves well. So do most of the players on tour in today's game.

Kiki has no clue how fast the modern players are serving.

Mick
03-19-2012, 06:42 PM
Not sure if Djokovic was kidding or serious but he said he practiced returning the Isner's serve like this :)

http://i40.tinypic.com/21mxope.jpg

kiki
03-20-2012, 01:44 AM
I'm not talking about records or career achievements, but only the serve. Ivo & Isner are better than them despite playing in an era where players return better than the past generations.

best returners in history, aknowledged by experienced fans that have seen tennis are Connors and Agassi.Laver was huge,too, so was Rosewall and, of course, Bjorn Borg....theyd LOVE to return todays servers...

ChanceEncounter
03-20-2012, 02:00 AM
best returners in history, aknowledged by experienced fans that have seen tennis are Connors and Agassi.Laver was huge,too, so was Rosewall and, of course, Bjorn Borg....theyd LOVE to return todays servers...
Yes, I'm sure they'd love to return serves that are a dozen miles faster than most of the serves they've seen, and served from a greater height to produce sharper angles. Obviously.

Do you actually know what you're talking about, or do you just like to shake your fist and tell kids to get off your lawn? Are you aware that racquet and string technology has improved in recent years? Are you aware that this helps people serve faster and more accurately? Are you aware that people still serve from the same baseline?

kiki
03-20-2012, 05:58 AM
Yes, I'm sure they'd love to return serves that are a dozen miles faster than most of the serves they've seen, and served from a greater height to produce sharper angles. Obviously.

Do you actually know what you're talking about, or do you just like to shake your fist and tell kids to get off your lawn? Are you aware that racquet and string technology has improved in recent years? Are you aware that this helps people serve faster and more accurately? Are you aware that people still serve from the same baseline?


Are you aware that Im always talking of equal conditions? that courts are considerable slower than before? a 120 mph serve on old grass could be harder to retrieve than a 150 mph on current grass...

phnx90
03-20-2012, 06:29 AM
Nole is great at returning wta serves like Nadal's.

Federer is great at returning huge serves.

Nadal, the weakest returner of the three is so lucky, he has never lost a match against either Isner or Karlovic.

Nole is great at punishing slow, spinny serves (so usually second serves), but not that good at returning fast serves.

Federer is great at returning huge serves with interest (like Roddick's) and is capable of punishing second serves like Djokovic (but strangely not often enough).

My feeling with Nadal is that he goes for the "get the ball in play"-approach on all serves, which is not at all efficient, but on the upside (or downside depending on who you are), can get his racquet on just about everything.

TMF
03-20-2012, 10:00 AM
best returners in history, aknowledged by experienced fans that have seen tennis are Connors and Agassi.Laver was huge,too, so was Rosewall and, of course, Bjorn Borg....theyd LOVE to return todays servers...

They never faced today's better servers, period !

With serve that has more pace and sharper angle, the short wingspan of Laver and Rosewall are even easier to ace.

BeHappy
11-11-2012, 08:19 AM
The players he loses to tend to be big servers (that's when he loses at all).

Obviously he lost to Isner recently and was taken to 5 sets against him in Davis Cup.

He's lost 5 of his last 7 matches against Roddick.

4-5 Losing record against Tsonga, including a loss in 2011.

1-1 against Karlovic.

We all saw him lose to Safin on grass in 2009.

We saw Mardy Fish push him very hard in Cincinnati.

etc etc.

Now he doesn't lose to anyone at all very often, but when he does, it tends to be against big servers. A bit like Federer in 2006 with defensive players like Nadal, Murray, Canas etc. Big servers are the match up Djokovic likes the least.

Nole struggling with a big server again today. Del Potro winning over 70% of points on his serve.

The match is still ongoing and either man could win so there's no spoiler and once the match is over let this thread die for 24 hours and I'll bump it then.

The weakest part of Djoker's game is his return of serve and whenever he loses or struggles it's usually to a big server, he is not in the same league as Federer or Murray in this aspect of the game. He can't return aggressively. His floaty short returns are easily put away by the power playing big servers.

helloworld
11-11-2012, 08:26 AM
Yes, I'm sure they'd love to return serves that are a dozen miles faster than most of the serves they've seen, and served from a greater height to produce sharper angles. Obviously.

Do you actually know what you're talking about, or do you just like to shake your fist and tell kids to get off your lawn? Are you aware that racquet and string technology has improved in recent years? Are you aware that this helps people serve faster and more accurately? Are you aware that people still serve from the same baseline?

None of the servers today come even remotely close to the level of 90s great servers like Sampras, Ivanisevic, Krajicek, etc.

Federer20042006
11-11-2012, 08:32 AM
None of the servers today come even remotely close to the level of 90s great servers like Sampras, Ivanisevic, Krajicek, etc.

In terms of pure serves, the top servers today are better than those guys.

The problem is, their games are no where near as complete. Isner and Karlovic are are a joke. Raonic is better than those two clowns, but not by all that much.

Roddick was underrated from the ground, but his serve wasn't as good as Isner/Karlovic/Raonic, nor Ivanisevic/Sampras/Krajicek.

djokovic2008
11-11-2012, 09:17 AM
Nole struggling with a big server again today. Del Potro winning over 70% of points on his serve.

The match is still ongoing and either man could win so there's no spoiler and once the match is over let this thread die for 24 hours and I'll bump it then.

The weakest part of Djoker's game is his return of serve and whenever he loses or struggles it's usually to a big server, he is not in the same league as Federer or Murray in this aspect of the game. He can't return aggressively. His floaty short returns are easily put away by the power playing big servers.

Lol you still have the stupidity to continue this thread? Even after today, you need to try and find something djoker is bad at. I'll help you it's the smash now make a thread about that and save your embarrassment.

Brian72
11-11-2012, 10:16 AM
Check these stats out. I don't think you can extrapolate from one match whether or not someone has a good return of serve. It's the consistency through out the year.

Also, keep in mind that Nadal's stats are heavily weighted with the clay court season where serving has less of an impact on the outcome.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/MatchFacts.aspx

Also note that Federer is not in the top 10 in any ROS category for the 2012 season.

To say that Djokovic has a weak return of serve is nuts.

On the other had, look at the stats for Service Games. Nole is in the top 10 in six of the Statistical categories.

If anything, it is Nole's serve that is a weakness. Like Andre Agassi and even Nadal, a week serve can be mitigated by a great ground game.

TTMR
11-11-2012, 10:49 AM
Nole struggling with a big server again today. Del Potro winning over 70% of points on his serve.

The match is still ongoing and either man could win so there's no spoiler and once the match is over let this thread die for 24 hours and I'll bump it then.

The weakest part of Djoker's game is his return of serve and whenever he loses or struggles it's usually to a big server, he is not in the same league as Federer or Murray in this aspect of the game. He can't return aggressively. His floaty short returns are easily put away by the power playing big servers.

Yep, Djokovic is a weak returner. Also, Jimmy Connors hit harder than most top players today (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=405280&highlight=Connors+hit+with+more+power).

zagor
11-11-2012, 10:55 AM
BeHappy trolling as usual, ROS is one of Novak's biggest strengths in his game.

helloworld
11-11-2012, 11:01 AM
He's weak against returning huge serve, but very good at returning weak serve.

Gonzo_style
11-11-2012, 11:20 AM
He's weak against returning huge serve, but very good at returning weak serve.

I agree, he showed today.

TheF1Bob
11-11-2012, 11:34 AM
LOL at this thread. Good trolling. :)

dominikk1985
11-11-2012, 11:46 AM
In terms of pure serves, the top servers today are better than those guys.

The problem is, their games are no where near as complete. Isner and Karlovic are are a joke. Raonic is better than those two clowns, but not by all that much.

Roddick was underrated from the ground, but his serve wasn't as good as Isner/Karlovic/Raonic, nor Ivanisevic/Sampras/Krajicek.

I agree. ivo, raonic and isner have higher hold rates than sampras or becker (even federer) despite the slower surfaces.

Nole is a great returner but he tends to lose his serve sometimes. usually he gets that break back very quickly but guys like isner, roddick or karlovic are not easily broken even by guys like nole, agassi or federer.

thus nole can lose sometimes against those guys.

rommil
11-11-2012, 11:48 AM
Nole is a great returner....better than either Fed or Rafa.

It's about 6 months and Rafa still has to return:(

Sabratha
11-11-2012, 01:26 PM
Ferrer is the new Nadal.

TheFifthSet
11-11-2012, 08:32 PM
Are you aware that Im always talking of equal conditions? that courts are considerable slower than before? a 120 mph serve on old grass could be harder to retrieve than a 150 mph on current grass...

But that has nothing to do with the pure quality of the serving itself. Maybe it would be more fitting to say they would love to return serve on todays courts?

I doubt any of them would salivate at the prospect of returning a John Isner first serve. His serve is a monster.

beast of mallorca
11-11-2012, 08:38 PM
LOL at this thread. Good trolling. :)

Shame on them F1Bob for out trolling you ! :)