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View Full Version : Is Nadal's HC success overrated?


WhiskeyEE
03-18-2012, 11:55 AM
A few years ago, especially after his AO win, people were talking about how Rafa has learned to play on HC. But really, outside of his 2 slam wins, what success has he had on hard courts? He won almost as many HC masters titles in 2005 as he has in the last 6.5 years. And he fails at the WTF every year.

I mean his HC resume is barely better than Andy Roddick's. And if it weren't for Fed choking in 2009, they would be identical. Yeah, he won the gold medal, when Novak was still extremely inconsistent and Federer was playing the worst tennis of his career. So anyway, is his HC success overrated?

Rafa:
Slams: 2 (1 in the last 3 years)
Masters: 5 (3 since 2005)
WT Finals: 0

Fed:
Slams: 9
Masters: 13 (maybe 14 in a few hours)
WT Finals: 6

Novak:
Slams: 4
Masters: 7
WT Finals: 1

Roddick:
Slams: 1
Masters: 5
WT Finals: 0

Rock Strongo
03-18-2012, 11:58 AM
I don't know, but judging from your username you have excellent taste.

monfed
03-18-2012, 12:06 PM
Obviously. Ralph still hasn't won a title on a legit HC. ;)

Quite frankly, I consider him an average HCer who successfully uses his clay game on it because the majority of the HCs are abominably slow.

billnepill
03-18-2012, 12:55 PM
People put him behind Fed and Novak. That is how is rated.

Now, is that overrated?

OverratedIvanovic
03-18-2012, 01:02 PM
2 slams and 2 GS finals is fairly decent imo. Had it not been for Djokovic, he would have won IW, Miami and USO last year. I think he is still the second best HC player especially in grandslams.

Gorecki
03-18-2012, 01:32 PM
Nadal is not overated in HC. he is however in Clay... a lot!!

boredone3456
03-18-2012, 01:36 PM
Yes and so is Federers on clay there are we all happy now

tacou
03-18-2012, 01:38 PM
rate him however you want objectively, but an Olympic gold, 2 slams, 5masters and a WTF final is a pretty solid career, let alone just a hard court record

Mike Sams
03-18-2012, 01:43 PM
2 slams and 2 GS finals is fairly decent imo. Had it not been for Djokovic, he would have won IW, Miami and USO last year. I think he is still the second best HC player especially in grandslams.

Had it not been for Nadal, Federer would have probably 6 more Slams and several clay Masters. :lol:
You can't use Djokovic as an excuse for Nadal's shortcomings on hardcourts. The final is where the real test is.

Mike Sams
03-18-2012, 01:44 PM
rate him however you want objectively, but an Olympic gold, 2 slams, 5masters and a WTF final is a pretty solid career, let alone just a hard court record

This is true. Even though USO 2010 saw the biggest joke of a draw ever for Nadal, he still won it so deserves the accolades.

ZeroSkid
03-18-2012, 01:45 PM
Rafa is so underrated

BeHappy
03-18-2012, 01:46 PM
Who is rating everyone's thread 1 star?

It's just one person because if I rate it 5 stars the thread moves to 3 stars (average of 5 and 1)

zagor
03-18-2012, 01:47 PM
Not his fan but personally I think he's underrated on HC, for a supposed CC specialist he had some tremendous results on HC.

The-Champ
03-18-2012, 02:55 PM
Yes, everyone is overrated in this era. It's a weak era.

Polaris
03-18-2012, 03:04 PM
Not overrated at all. He has 2 HC Slams. He has earned his HC success.

LazyNinja19
03-09-2014, 03:31 AM
Great thread indeed... :roll:

FedererWinsWimbledon2014
03-09-2014, 04:51 AM
Great thread indeed... :roll:

3 hard court slams, scary stuff.

I think he has less HC titles than Murray. He is also streets behind Novak on HC and comparing him on HC to Fed wouldn't even be funny.

MichaelNadal
03-09-2014, 04:57 AM
3 hard court slams, scary stuff.

I think he has less HC titles than Murray. He is also streets behind Novak on HC and comparing him on HC to Fed wouldn't even be funny.

So what you're saying is that there are 3 people alive who have better HC results? Murray has 1 HC slam so in reality 2. One is probably the best tennis player in history, the other a candidate for greatest HC player of all time. Yeah Rafa is overrated on hard indeed. :lol:

Kenshin
03-09-2014, 05:04 AM
3 hard court slams, scary stuff.

I think he has less HC titles than Murray. He is also streets behind Novak on HC and comparing him on HC to Fed wouldn't even be funny.

This is ridiculous. 3 Hard court titles and 6 Finals is nothing to laught about. Many players will love to have that career. It is impressive stuff, considering he was constantly named " Clay courter". Look how far he has come.

FedererWinsWimbledon2014
03-09-2014, 05:04 AM
So what you're saying is that there are 3 people alive who have better HC results? Murray has 1 HC slam so in reality 2. One is probably the best tennis player in history, the other a candidate for greatest HC player of all time. Yeah Rafa is overrated on hard indeed. :lol:

3 people active not alive. I'm not say he is over or underrated as I don't know what his rating is.

What I am saying his HC credentials aren't worthy of a tier 1 great (which Nadal is) or arguably of someone who has won 13 slams and counting.

Kenshin
03-09-2014, 05:08 AM
3 people active not alive. I'm not say he is over or underrated as I don't know what his rating is.

What I am saying his HC credentials aren't worthy of a tier 1 great (which Nadal is) or arguably of someone who has won 13 slams and counting.

Well, if you want to play that game, Federer credentials aren't worthy of a tier 1 great who has 17 grandslams. He only has 1 grandslam title on clay. Do you know how insane this thinking is??

SLD76
03-09-2014, 06:17 AM
It does help that the HC field is weaker now than it has been in a while.

Think about it . No soderling, no davydenko, Delpo hurt, Nalbandian gone, murray hurt/subpar, Roddick gone, Fish gone.

Sure you have guys like Tsonga and Berdych, but they rarely bring the goods against the big 4 unless its Federer on an off day/hurt.

So basically, the past 2 years the HC field has gotten considerably weaker than say 4-5 years ago. Im not saying its the entire reason for Nadal's HC success last year( skipping the AO surely added some stamina) but, it sure didnt hurt either.

Kenshin
03-09-2014, 06:27 AM
It does help that the HC field is weaker now than it has been in a while.

Think about it . No soderling, no davydenko, Delpo hurt, Nalbandian gone, murray hurt/subpar, Roddick gone, Fish gone.

Sure you have guys like Tsonga and Berdych, but they rarely bring the goods against the big 4 unless its Federer on an off day/hurt.

So basically, the past 2 years the HC field has gotten considerably weaker than say 4-5 years ago. Im not saying its the entire reason for Nadal's HC success last year( skipping the AO surely added some stamina) but, it sure didnt hurt either.

I disagree. Look at the list of winners and finalist at AO and USO. Except Nadal, there is always Djokovic and Murray. It is definitely strong field. Like Stan said players has to go through either Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray to win the title. Or couple of them. And that is a very difficult think to do.

Forehand Of Doom
03-09-2014, 06:47 AM
It does help that the HC field is weaker now than it has been in a while.

Think about it . No soderling, no davydenko, Delpo hurt, Nalbandian gone, murray hurt/subpar, Roddick gone, Fish gone.

Sure you have guys like Tsonga and Berdych, but they rarely bring the goods against the big 4 unless its Federer on an off day/hurt.

So basically, the past 2 years the HC field has gotten considerably weaker than say 4-5 years ago. Im not saying its the entire reason for Nadal's HC success last year( skipping the AO surely added some stamina) but, it sure didnt hurt either.
You forgot to mention Djokovic 2.0. :)

Forehand Of Doom
03-09-2014, 06:51 AM
Nadal's HC stats aren't too shabby. 3 slams and 8 Masters, with presumably more to come. Nadal's performance on HC is much closer to Federer's than Federer's performance on clay to Nadal's.

Also, Nadal has won the American HC swing, which is quite impressive and which Federer could never win.

SLD76
03-09-2014, 06:52 AM
I disagree. Look at the list of winners and finalist at AO and USO. Except Nadal, there is always Djokovic and Murray. It is definitely strong field. Like Stan said players has to go through either Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray to win the title. Or couple of them. And that is a very difficult think to do.

Of course the top 4 are strong, but aside from that what is there? Tsonga, Berdych? a declining Ferrer?

Thats my point. aside from the big 4, the HC field is weak. Hell, the field in general is weaker, but HC competition has especially gotten weaker with the loss of the players I mentioned whose best surfaces are HC( HC and clay in the case of soderling).

and now with Murray being subpar its that much weaker. It remains to be seen what Wawrinka will do since winning the AO. But even a strong Stan just replaces a diminished Murray, so you still essentially have a Big 4, then a precipitous drop.

Kenshin
03-09-2014, 07:22 AM
Of course the top 4 are strong, but aside from that what is there? Tsonga, Berdych? a declining Ferrer?

Thats my point. aside from the big 4, the HC field is weak. Hell, the field in general is weaker, but HC competition has especially gotten weaker with the loss of the players I mentioned whose best surfaces are HC( HC and clay in the case of soderling).

and now with Murray being subpar its that much weaker. It remains to be seen what Wawrinka will do since winning the AO. But even a strong Stan just replaces a diminished Murray, so you still essentially have a Big 4, then a precipitous drop.

I find it funny that you mention Soldering, Davedenko, Del potro, Nadalbandian and Roddick as your reasoning. These players (I will admit Roddick is a great player on hard court who happen to run into his worst matchup opponent Federer) are one slam wonder. Except Roddick, how many finals have they reached??? They are nowhere consistent and better than Djokovic and Murray at grandslam. So my point stands that the hard court field has not gotten worse.

SLD76
03-09-2014, 07:36 AM
I find it funny that you mention Soldering, Davedenko, Del potro, Nadalbandian and Roddick as your reasoning. These players (I will admit Roddick is a great player on hard court who happen to run into his worst matchup opponent Federer) are one slam wonder. Except Roddick, how many finals have they reached??? They are nowhere consistent and better than Djokovic and Murray at grandslam. So my point stands that the hard court field has not gotten worse.

ok, but what players currently on tour are as good as they even were?

Delpo and Roddick won slams.

Davydenko has won WTF. Davydenko also made alot of slam QFs, but he always ran into fed so bad luck him. Nalbandian has beaten Fed at the USO and won WTF. What have Berdych, Tsonga or Ferrer done in comparison??

Also, what part of 'outside of the Big 4 is weak' are you failing to understand?

You have responded twice to me and twice havent comprehended what I am saying.

Yes, we know Djoker and Murray and Nadal and Fed are good, the point is, outside of the Big 4 the top 10 is weaker than it has been and the HC field has significantly weakened in the past 4-5 years with the loss of the players I mentioned in my initial post. Factor in a post surgery Murray and the HC field has gotten that much weaker. And as I said, even if Stan goes on to be factor, he only replaces the spot vacated by Murray being subpar from surgery so we still essentially have the same situation of a strong 4, and the rest of the field weak in comparison.

Mustard
03-09-2014, 07:37 AM
2009 Australian Open champion
2010 US Open champion
2013 US Open champion

2005 Canadian Open champion
2005 Madrid Indoor champion
2007 Indian Wells champion
2008 Canadian Open champion
2008 Beijing Olympic singles champion
2009 Indian Wells champion
2013 Indian Wells champion
2013 Canadian Open champion
2013 Cincinnati champion

Forehand Of Doom
03-09-2014, 07:45 AM
Nadal is not overated in HC. he is however in Clay... a lot!!

http://www.ohmagif.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/drunk-girl-gets-a-taste-of-toilet.gif

Kenshin
03-09-2014, 07:46 AM
ok, but what players currently on tour are as good as they even were?

Delpo and Roddick won slams.

Davydenko has won WTF. Davydenko also made alot of slam QFs, but he always ran into fed so bad luck him. Nalbandian has beaten Fed at the USO and won WTF. What have Berdych, Tsonga or Ferrer done in comparison??

Also, what part of 'outside of the Big 4 is weak' are you failing to understand?

You have responded twice to me and twice havent comprehended what I am saying.

Yes, we know Djoker and Murray and Nadal and Fed are good, the point is, outside of the Big 4 the top 10 is weaker than it has been and the HC field has significantly weakened in the past 4-5 years with the loss of the players I mentioned in my initial post. Factor in a post surgery Murray and the HC field has gotten that much weaker. And as I said, even if Stan goes on to be factor, he only replaces the spot vacated by Murray being subpar from surgery so we still essentially have the same situation of a strong 4, and the rest of the field weak in comparison.

What you fail to understand is you are somewhat trying to deminish Nadal's hard court success. Nadal is a great hard courter. He will probably end up in the top 10 in history. So, no he isn't overrated at all.

degrease
03-09-2014, 07:52 AM
He has always been rated behind either fed or novak on hard courts which is fair. Overated is a stupid word to use when he has won Us open australian and indian wells.
Novak federer and Rafa are NOT overated. They are multi slam winners... end of convo

degrease
03-09-2014, 07:53 AM
And WTF is indoor not hardcourt

Djokovic2011
03-09-2014, 07:56 AM
I wouldn't say Nadal is overrated or underrated on hardcourts, imo he's always been a decent player on the surface but nothing special. I have to say though that the amount of success he had during the summer of last year was strange. It reminded me of Superman 2 where the three villains take over the world after Superman[in this case Djokovic] loses all his powers and just stands by to watch it all unfold. Thankfully he regained his strength in Beijing and brought harmony back to the tour lol.

SLD76
03-09-2014, 07:58 AM
What you fail to understand is you are somewhat trying to deminish Nadal's hard court success. Nadal is a great hard courter. He will probably end up in the top 10 in history. So, no he isn't overrated at all.

I didnt say he is overrated, I said it didnt hurt that the HC field has weakened over the last few years.

And nobody with half a brain can honestly say it hasnt weakend the last few years.

mike danny
03-09-2014, 07:59 AM
Def not overrated. Nadal has just 2 HC slams less than Novak. And already had 3 times as many HC slams as Murray.

Def one of the top 10 HC in history

FedererWinsWimbledon2014
03-09-2014, 07:59 AM
Since the 1990s Sampras, Agassi Djokovic and Fed have all won more HC slams than Nadal. Some see Nadal as greater than all them. So yes his HC stats are below the line.

In fact, I think they have all won more HC titles at a single slam than Nadal's total of three. (Agassi+Nole 4 AO and Fed+ Pete 5 US) Never mind the WTF.

Please to the trolls, don't bring up Fed. This thread is about Nadal.

SLD76
03-09-2014, 08:02 AM
Since the 1990s Sampras, Agassi Djokovic and Fed have all won more HC slams than Nadal. Some see Nadal as greater than all them. So yes his HC stats are below the line.

In fact, I think they have all won more HC titles at a single slam than Nadal's total of three. (Agassi+Nole 4 AO and Fed+ Pete 5 US) Never mind the WTF.

Please to the trolls, don't bring up Fed. This thread is about Nadal.

...........but didnt you just?

I mean you??

0.o

Forehand Of Doom
03-09-2014, 08:06 AM
I wouldn't say Nadal is overrated or underrated on hardcourts, imo he's always been a decent player on the surface but nothing special. I have to say though that the amount of success he had during the summer of last year was strange. It reminded me of Superman 2 where the three villains take over the world after Superman[in this case Djokovic] loses all his powers and just stands by to watch it all unfold. Thankfully he regained his strength in Beijing and brought harmony back to the tour lol.

Or maybe it was more like Superman, when Lex Luthor (Djokovic) takes over the world, but then Superman (Nadal) shakes off his kryptonite and comes back like a boss. :)

Backspin1183
03-09-2014, 08:07 AM
Nadal already is an all time top 10 on hard court. Is that overrated? I don't think anyone's calling him the best hard court player of this era. Roger and Novak are more accomplished than him on cement. Nadal has however won all his hard court slams beating Roger or Novak in the final.

Forehand Of Doom
03-09-2014, 08:09 AM
I didnt say he is overrated, I said it didnt hurt that the HC field has weakened over the last few years.

And nobody with half a brain can honestly say it hasnt weakend the last few years.

It has weakened? What hardcourt beasts have disappeared from the tour? :)

Backspin1183
03-09-2014, 08:11 AM
Or maybe it was more like Superman, when Lex Luthor (Djokovic) takes over the world, but then Superman (Nadal) shakes off his kryptonite and comes back like a boss. :)

Nadal definitely is the man of steel of tennis. Novak's the Green Lantern. And 2011 was the year the Green Lantern of tennis could create the kryptonite.
But son of Jor-el's returned from a time spent in the sun.

SLD76
03-09-2014, 08:25 AM
It has weakened? What hardcourt beasts have disappeared from the tour? :)

Delpo for one.

Backspin1183
03-09-2014, 08:32 AM
Delpo for one.

What has Delpo done on hard courts apart from the 2009 USO victory even when healthy? The guy isn't even good enough to win a Master 1000 and loses to guys like past prime Hewitt, Bautista Agut, etc. Del Potro is the overrated one.

Kenshin
03-09-2014, 08:36 AM
Delpo for one.

Del potro who has won only one hard court grandslam title and has not reached any grand slam final since 2009. He has not won one masters 1000 title. And he is a beast on hard court???? If that is the reasoning, I can't take you seriously.

SLD76
03-09-2014, 08:38 AM
Del potro who has won only one hard court grandslam title and has not reached any grand slam final since 2009. He has not won one masters 1000 title. And he is a beast on hard court???? If that is the reasoning, I can't take you seriously.



I didnt say he is a beast, but he is certainly capable of beating top players on HC. That said, we dont know what delpo would be if he could stay healthy.

Davydenko is another good HCer lost due to health.

Backspin1183
03-09-2014, 08:41 AM
Del potro who has won only one hard court grandslam title and has not reached any grand slam final since 2009. He has not won one masters 1000 title. And he is a beast on hard court???? If that is the reasoning, I can't take you seriously.

I've never seen him/her post anything good about Nadal. Calling Nadal better than Roger and Novak on hard courts would be wrong but he's a great player himself on the hard surface.

Kenshin
03-09-2014, 08:44 AM
I didnt say he is a beast, but he is certainly capable of beating top players on HC. That said, we dont know what delpo would be if he could stay healthy.

Davydenko is another good HCer lost due to health.

I agree about Del potro. I wish he was healthy after 2009. He could have troubled the top players. I disagree about Davydenko. I loved his game but he wasn't good enough to win the grandslams on hard.

Kenshin
03-09-2014, 08:47 AM
I've never seen him/her post anything good about Nadal. Calling Nadal better than Roger and Novak on hard courts would be wrong but he's a great player himself on the hard surface.

Just don't take him seriously. There are a lot of posters like him hate Nadal because of the H2H. If he or she bugs you that much you can put him on ignore list if you want. Good to see you are passionate about Nadal.

Backspin1183
03-09-2014, 08:51 AM
Just don't take him seriously. There are a lot of posters like him hate Nadal because of the H2H. If he or she bugs you that much you can put him on ignore list if you want. Good to see you are passionate about Nadal.

I don't. I wouldn't take "Nadal is the GOAT" kind of posters seriously either.
Anyone who has had nothing good to say about x player just cannot be taken seriously whenever he talks about x player.

Kenshin
03-09-2014, 08:53 AM
I don't. I wouldn't take "Nadal is the GOAT" kind of posters seriously either.
Anyone who has had nothing good to say about x player just cannot be taken seriously whenever he talks about x player.

That's the spirit, mate. :)

NatF
03-09-2014, 08:58 AM
It has weakened? What hardcourt beasts have disappeared from the tour? :)

Federer for starters was rubbish all year. Murray was done on hardcourts after Miami last year. Del Potro has had early exits are all 3 Hardcourt slams from 2013 onwards.

Djokovic was eratic on hardcourts in the middle of the year although he preformed in the slams.

Forehand Of Doom
03-09-2014, 09:02 AM
I've never seen him/her post anything good about Nadal. Calling Nadal better than Roger and Novak on hard courts would be wrong but he's a great player himself on the hard surface.

Quarter Pounder is a notorious Nadal hater. No big deal, really.

mike danny
03-09-2014, 09:03 AM
I agree about Del potro. I wish he was healthy after 2009. He could have troubled the top players. I disagree about Davydenko. I loved his game but he wasn't good enough to win the grandslams on hard.
You may never know. AO 2006 would have been a great opportunity had he not run into Roger. Roger also denied him some slam finals on HC in 2006 and 2007.

The point is Davydenko is one of Nadal's toughest opponents on HC. 6-1 H2H does not lie. For Rafa it would have been much harder to beat Davy on HC than Youzhny for ex

SLD76
03-09-2014, 09:04 AM
I agree about Del potro. I wish he was healthy after 2009. He could have troubled the top players. I disagree about Davydenko. I loved his game but he wasn't good enough to win the grandslams on hard.

Davydenko won a WTF. He was good enough to win a slam, he just wasnt good enough to beat Federer, lol. He always seemed to play Roger in the semis or QFs. DAvydenko was a great HC player.

Forehand Of Doom
03-09-2014, 09:05 AM
Federer for starters was rubbish all year. Murray was done on hardcourts after Miami last year. Del Potro has had early exits are all 3 Hardcourt slams from 2013 onwards.

Djokovic was eratic on hardcourts in the middle of the year although he preformed in the slams.

Nadal is benefitting from a weak era? How about Federer 2004-2007? We can play that game.

mike danny
03-09-2014, 09:08 AM
Nadal is benefitting from a weak era? How about Federer 2004-2007? We can play that game.
Many all time greats have beneffited from weaker opossition to inflate their numbers.

Kenshin
03-09-2014, 09:08 AM
You may never know. AO 2006 would have been a great opportunity had he not run into Roger. Roger also denied him some slam finals on HC in 2006 and 2007.

The point is Davydenko is one of Nadal's toughest opponents on HC. 6-1 H2H does not lie. For Rafa it would have been much harder to beat Davy on HC than Youzhny for ex

I know that very well. But the fact is he wouldn't be a favorite against Nadal in best of 5 at grandslams.

SLD76
03-09-2014, 09:09 AM
Nadal is benefitting from a weak era? How about Federer 2004-2007? We can play that game.

First off, I said the HC competition has weakened in the past few years,which is certainly has, aside from the big 4. Also, I didnt say thats the sole reason for Nadal's recent HC resurgence, but I said it surely didnt hurt either.

Second, its only your opinion that 04-07 was 'weak'

Old Fed reaching number one again in the midst of the 'strong era', and old broke down Haas cracking the top 20 a couple years ago belies that opinion.

SLD76
03-09-2014, 09:13 AM
I know that very well. But the fact is he wouldn't be a favorite against Nadal in best of 5 at grandslams.

It never happened so we'll never know. But I do know he handed Nadal some beatdowns on HC.

clayqueen
03-09-2014, 09:15 AM
So 2 USO & 1 AO = 2.

Too much whiskey!

Forehand Of Doom
03-09-2014, 09:15 AM
First off, I said the HC competition has weakened in the past few years,which is certainly has, aside from the big 4. Also, I didnt say thats the sole reason for Nadal's recent HC resurgence, but I said it surely didnt hurt either.

Second, its only your opinion that 04-07 was 'weak'

Old Fed reaching number one again in the midst of the 'strong era', and old broke down Haas cracking the top 20 a couple years ago belies that opinion.

If the current hardcourt field is weak, so was 2004-2007.

The fact is both Nadal and Federer are great players. Each of them have their best surfaces, but both are very good at their worst surfaces as well.

Federer becoming #1 in 2012 means he is a superb player, and Nadal having his best hardcourt season in 2013 means Nadal is a great hardcourt player who has become better on that surface as time went on.

It's not the field. The way Nadal was playing last summer on hardcourts was magnificent.

NatF
03-09-2014, 09:17 AM
Nadal is benefitting from a weak era? How about Federer 2004-2007? We can play that game.

You had Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, Nalbandian, Agassi (04), Nadal ( ;) 05 onward), Gonzalez, Davydenko, Blake, Ljubacic and then Djokovic coming in at various times. Not weak at all.

Compare that to now, who did Nadal face on hardcourts in 2013. Djokovic, Berdych, a declining Federer and Del Potro. In 2010 Nadal only faced Djokovic in his worst year since 06.

09 he went through two great players at the AO, massive respect. In 2011-2012 his way was barred by some great players. But let's not get carried away based on 2013.

SLD76
03-09-2014, 09:18 AM
If the current hardcourt field is weak, so was 2004-2007.

The fact is both Nadal and Federer are great players. Each of them have their best surfaces, but both are very good at their worst surfaces as well.

Federer becoming #1 in 2012 means he is a superb player, and Nadal having his best hardcourt season in 2013 means Nadal is a great hardcourt player who has become better on that surface as time went on.

It's not the field. The way Nadal was playing last summer on hardcourts was magnificent.



you can say anything you like, it doesnt make it so.

I have demonstrated how the HC field has weakened a bit with a loss of certain players, and now subpar Murray.

Meanwhile, a bajillion posts later and no, not everyone agrees that 04-07 was weak.

Nadal did play very well last summer.

mike danny
03-09-2014, 09:32 AM
If the current hardcourt field is weak, so was 2004-2007.

The fact is both Nadal and Federer are great players. Each of them have their best surfaces, but both are very good at their worst surfaces as well.

Federer becoming #1 in 2012 means he is a superb player, and Nadal having his best hardcourt season in 2013 means Nadal is a great hardcourt player who has become better on that surface as time went on.

It's not the field. The way Nadal was playing last summer on hardcourts was magnificent.
Not really. Combinations of Nalbandian +Hewitt, Blake +Davydenko to reach a final are tougher than Verdasco+Youzhny and Robredo +Gasquet

FedererWinsWimbledon2014
03-09-2014, 10:31 AM
What has Delpo done on hard courts apart from the 2009 USO victory even when healthy? The guy isn't even good enough to win a Master 1000 and loses to guys like past prime Hewitt, Bautista Agut, etc. Del Potro is the overrated one.

Those losses were a result of a wrist injury. We all know how good delpo is when fit.

rocketassist
03-09-2014, 07:08 PM
The US Opens were a little weak, no question about it. 2010 he faced a load of his Spanish slaves and then a drained Youzhny n the SF, while last year freaking Boredo the useless pusher in the QF and Gasquet in SF. Extremely weak opposition.

However the AO 2009 (two incredible matches against Peakdasco and a Federer who played very well for most parts until set 5's meltdown, was arguably his most impressive slam outside of his first RG.

clayqueen
03-10-2014, 05:43 AM
3 hard court slams, scary stuff.

I think he has less HC titles than Murray. He is also streets behind Novak on HC and comparing him on HC to Fed wouldn't even be funny.

So let's hae some fun and compare their records on clay.

Wynter
03-10-2014, 05:49 AM
So let's hae some fun and compare their records on clay.

What about on grass as well? :twisted:

TMF
03-10-2014, 09:58 AM
So let's hae some fun and compare their records on clay.

But Federer's clay prowess is underrated, especially by the old-timers.

Hitman
03-10-2014, 03:26 PM
Overated?

The guy has been in six HC slam finals, three a piece between the two HC majors. He's beaten Federer and Djokovic, the two best HC players of this era in the finals for the titles.

He played the longest slam final match in history, on a HC.

Olympic gold on HC. He has completed the N America Hard Court swing, the first player in a decade to do it. He's won IW three times also, plus a few other big wins, including beating Federer in Dubai.
Had the best match of the year in 2010 against Murray on Indoor Hard Court at WTF.
Three finals at WTF, three in Miami, finals of Shanghai and Paris Indoors also. He has basically been in the title match of all major HC events.

How can you say he is overrated on HC, when he has done so much on what was arguably his third worst surface?

Djokovic2011
03-10-2014, 03:29 PM
Overated?

The guy has been in six HC slam finals, three a piece between the two HC majors. He's beaten Federer and Djokovic, the two best HC players of this era in the finals for the titles.

He played the longest slam final match in history, on a HC.

Olympic gold on HC. He has completed the N America Hard Court swing, the first player in a decade to do it. He's won IW three times also, plus a few other big wins, including beating Federer in Dubai.
Had the best match of the year in 2010 against Murray on Indoor Hard Court at WTF.
Three finals at WTF, three in Miami, finals of Shanghai and Paris Indoors also. He has basically been in the title match of all major HC events.

How can you say he is overrated on HC, when he has done so much on what was arguably his third worst surface?

You just went into hardcore NADALRECORD mode there Hitman! :lol:

MichaelNadal
03-10-2014, 03:36 PM
You just went into hardcore NADALRECORD mode there Hitman! :lol:

It should go to show the ridiculously small amount of credit Nadal gets from the haters on here when Hitman has to post something like that.

Hitman
03-10-2014, 03:39 PM
You just went into hardcore NADALRECORD mode there Hitman! :lol:

haha!

Just saying it how I see it. Nadal has done very well on HC, considering it is quite possibly his hardest surface, but not only that, it also has the greatest depth of competition on imo. I do feel that Nadal doesn't get the respect he in my eyes has earned in making something of himself on HC.

Yes, he is not Federer or Djokovic on HC, but they aren't exactly Nadal on clay either. So lets give these guys some respect, and I mean all of them and rise above the hate.

Djokovic2011
03-10-2014, 03:41 PM
haha!

Just saying it how I see it. Nadal has done very well on HC, considering it is quite possibly his hardest surface, but not only that, it also has the greatest depth of competition on imo. I do feel that Nadal doesn't get the respect he in my eyes has earned in making something of himself on HC.

Yes, he is not Federer or Djokovic on HC, but they aren't exactly Nadal on clay either. So lets give these guys some respect, and I mean all of them and rise above the hate.

Great post as usual, couldn't agree more.

Hitman
03-10-2014, 03:47 PM
Great post as usual, couldn't agree more.

You are one of the better Djokovic fans. And you understand what it is like when Novak gets discredited and called abusive names. The same goes for Federer, and his fans. So, if we can't condone them being thrown under the bus, we should at least have some mutual ground with fans of other players about their favs also.

jhhachamp
03-10-2014, 03:52 PM
So 2 USO & 1 AO = 2.

Too much whiskey!


Well at least you can admit when you have had too much to drink (check the dates again).

Djokovic2011
03-10-2014, 03:55 PM
You are one of the better Djokovic fans. And you understand what it is like when Novak gets discredited and called abusive names. The same goes for Federer, and his fans. So, if we can't condone them being thrown under the bus, we should at least have some mutual ground with fans of other players about their favs also.

Yeah what is it with posters on this forum when it comes to giving credit to certain players, even if it's one you don't like? Honestly it's like it would kill people to actually say something complimentary, as if they're doing the dirty on their favourite player or something lol. I just don't understand it and EVERY fanbase is guilty of it.

Hitman
03-10-2014, 04:05 PM
Yeah what is it with posters on this forum when it comes to giving credit to certain players, even if it's one you don't like? Honestly it's like it would kill people to actually say something complimentary, as if they're doing the dirty on their favourite player or something lol. I just don't understand it and EVERY fanbase is guilty of it.

Yeah, this is what we normally get when a player wins.

Nadal wins, yeah the courts must be slow, his opponent choked as usual, he used gamesmanship, on court coaching, he must be on his new cycle, time violations, playing his lapdog, playing his cheerleaders, fake MTOs....

Djokovic wins, yeah must using the egg, must be on PEDS to have that stamina, his team are a bunch of thugs when they celebrate, he parades around like a disrespectful gorilla pounding his chest, time violation, attention w....

Federer wins, yeah we must be back in the weak era, all titles won against losers, all wins hollow, player choked, Federer fake back injury, Federer's wife is unattractive, his balls don't shrink against weak players, arrogant...

Djokovic2011
03-10-2014, 04:14 PM
Yeah, this is what we normally get when a player wins.

Nadal wins, yeah the courts must be slow, his opponent choked as usual, he used gamesmanship, on court coaching, he must be on his new cycle, time violations, playing his lapdog, playing his cheerleaders, fake MTOs....

Djokovic wins, yeah must using the egg, must be on PEDS to have that stamina, his team are a bunch of thugs when they celebrate, he parades around like a disrespectful gorilla pounding his chest, time violation, attention w....

Federer wins, yeah we must be back in the weak era, all titles won against losers, all wins hollow, player choked, Federer fake back injury, Federer's wife is unattractive, his balls don't shrink against weak players, arrogant...

Yep you pretty much covered it all lol. Posters on this forum are nothing if not predictable and it always gives me a good laugh. Seriously ever since I discovered Talk Tennis I don't even need to watch comedy dvds anymore when I'm feeling a little down- just one click on this forum is all it takes to wash my blues away haha! :)

Forehand Of Doom
03-10-2014, 05:56 PM
haha!

Just saying it how I see it. Nadal has done very well on HC, considering it is quite possibly his hardest surface, but not only that, it also has the greatest depth of competition on imo. I do feel that Nadal doesn't get the respect he in my eyes has earned in making something of himself on HC.

Yes, he is not Federer or Djokovic on HC, but they aren't exactly Nadal on clay either. So lets give these guys some respect, and I mean all of them and rise above the hate.
You are an excellent poster. One of the rare voices of reason in a wasteland of hateful trolls and rabid fanboys.

P.S.: I am not that great myself. ;)

Forehand Of Doom
03-10-2014, 05:58 PM
Yep you pretty much covered it all lol. Posters on this forum are nothing if not predictable and it always gives me a good laugh. Seriously ever since I discovered Talk Tennis I don't even need to watch comedy dvds anymore when I'm feeling a little down- just one click on this forum is all it takes to wash my blues away haha! :)
I'm sorry, but I resent the fact that you consider me predictable.

Thus, I bid you adieu with a totally random, unpredictable exit from the stage.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/2031542/zoidberg-scuttle-o.gif

Djokovic2011
03-10-2014, 06:03 PM
I'm sorry, but I resent the fact that you consider me predictable.

Thus, I bid you adieu with a totally random, unpredictable exit from the stage.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/2031542/zoidberg-scuttle-o.gif

That gif is hilarious FOD but you know I wasn't referring to you- you're one of the good guys on here! :wink:

Forehand Of Doom
03-10-2014, 06:12 PM
That gif is hilarious FOD but you know I wasn't referring to you- you're one of the good guys on here! :wink:

Thank you, Djokovic2011! :)

Yes, the gif is from one of my favorite characters (Dr. Zoidberg from Futurama).

burn1986
03-10-2014, 09:38 PM
Rafa is just a good tennis player Hardcourts or Clay. He was rockin until the AO final

insideguy
03-10-2014, 09:43 PM
Rafa is just a good tennis player Hardcourts or Clay. He was rockin until the AO final


No he wasnt. He lost in london. He lost in Shanghi and he lost in China. He lost in Paris. He has won one of his last 7 hardcourt events. He hasnt been rocking on hardcourt.