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Towser83
03-18-2012, 09:05 PM
Watching the Federer vs nadal match I noticed a few things, I know people have probably mentioned them all but I wanted to sum up what I think Federer did well in the match.

1. Serving. Serve percentage was high in the first set (about 74%) and he was overall very good at clutch serving (perfectly demonstrated by the ace on match point) this was very impressive given the wind.

2. Backhand. Federer really hit his backhand with purpose and attack. He didn't just slice it back and give Nadal an easy ball to hit, he used it as a weapon and made few errors off it. Nadal was unable to attack either wing enough and thus had no fallback plan to go to.

3. Volleys. Too often Federer comes in off a weak approach and promtly gets passed. Sometimes Nadal hits a great couple of shots to get into a Federer service game and Federer panics, tries to end the point too soon by coming in out of hope than real intelligence and pays the price. He forces the issue too much coming in when really he should know the shot isn't good enough. Then after he gets burnt a few times he stops coming in. In the first set in the IW semi, he won 9 out of 9 net aproaches and 12 of 13 overall. This is fantastic from Federer. He came in to net at the right times, played good vollies and didn't give up when Nadal won points at net (though obviously he only won one point when Federer made the aproach) Federer really displayed the total opposite of what he usually does at net vs Nadal.

4. shot choice. Federer played a very clever match, he knew exactly whan to wrong foot nadal and go back behind him, he didctated play and seemed to have a feel for how to construct points. His defense was much better than I exected it to be.

5. Attitude. Federer looked ike he meant business and believed he was going to win. When he got broken back in the first set he stuck to his task and didn't lose composure. Same in the second set when he lost one break.

EDIT. Tudwell mentioned breakpoints as well, here Federer took his chances better than he has done in a lot of mathes

The question is, can Federer do this on a regular basis or was this a rare show of form? Federer needs to rewatch the tape and remember what he did!

tudwell
03-18-2012, 09:09 PM
I think Federer generally does well at net against Nadal. Obviously against a great passer like Nadal, he's gonna get burned quite a bit, but even if he loses a few points at net, it puts pressure on Nadal not to let up at all.

The problems Federer has encountered in the past against Nadal are mostly mental. He's too passive on break points and often indecisive tactically, leading to unforced errors. The times he beats Nadal, he's confident and sticks to a specific game plan.

Towser83
03-18-2012, 09:10 PM
I think Federer generally does well at net against Nadal. Obviously against a great passer like Nadal, he's gonna get burned quite a bit, but even if he loses a few points at net, it puts pressure on Nadal not to let up at all.

The problems Federer has encountered in the past against Nadal are mostly mental. He's too passive on break points and often indecisive tactically, leading to unforced errors. The times he beats Nadal, he's confident and sticks to a specific game plan.

I forgot to mntion break points! Yeah he did much better in that area too

tudwell
03-18-2012, 09:14 PM
Federer's return was another thing that stuck out. I remember one game early on where Federer shanked two returns in a row way out of the court and I thought, "Oh no, not this again." But that was it. Other than that, he put almost every single ball back into play, which put a lot more pressure on Nadal to back up his serve off the ground, which proved difficult to do in the windy conditions.

OddJack
03-18-2012, 09:15 PM
Good summary

#2-- I dont remember even one slice actually, it was all top spin or flat.

#3-- the key to volleys was approaching on Nadal's BH vs FH, like he did at AO. Only once it failed yesterday

6- Return of serve, instead of his usual chip back on his BH he stepped inside the court and took it early and blocked.

Towser83
03-18-2012, 09:17 PM
Good points OddJack,

yep return of serve was much better

MichaelNadal
03-18-2012, 09:34 PM
Order will be restored next time they play, calm down guys. If I didn't see the match, id think Rafa played well with the way u guys are acting. The guy had 1 forehand winner in an hour of tennis and was pushing.

OddJack
03-18-2012, 09:38 PM
Order will be restored next time they play, calm down guys. If I didn't see the match, id think Rafa played well with the way u guys are acting. The guy had 1 forehand winner in an hour of tennis and was pushing.

He had one FH winner because he was busy defending his bh.

And pushing is what he does, how do you think he has lost all those finals to Djoker, by attacking??

DarthFed
03-18-2012, 09:40 PM
Order will be restored next time they play, calm down guys. If I didn't see the match, id think Rafa played well with the way u guys are acting. The guy had 1 forehand winner in an hour of tennis and was pushing.

Lol this forum is still so ******.

nadalwon2012
03-18-2012, 09:40 PM
Good summary

#2-- I dont remember even one slice actually, it was all top spin or flat.

#3-- the key to volleys was approaching on Nadal's BH vs FH, like he did at AO. Only once it failed yesterday

6- Return of serve, instead of his usual chip back on his BH he stepped inside the court and took it early and blocked.

Bottom line- wet weather. ball doesn't kick up as high. Plus windy weather making Nadal uncertain (which he usually isn't).

Better pray for rain at Miami :lol:

MichaelNadal
03-18-2012, 09:44 PM
He had one FH winner because he was busy defending his bh.

And pushing is what he does, how do you think he has lost all those finals to Djoker, by attacking??

Please. Federer was attacking much better with his backhand for example at RG 2011 and lost the match. Don't take it personal, I like Fed and he played better than Nadal and that's all that matters. But the million threads being created about his "new tactics" and him winning bc he "successfully exploited Nadal's backhand" are just bogus. Nadal played terribly and Federer played great.

tudwell
03-18-2012, 09:48 PM
Please. Federer was attacking much better with his backhand for example at RG 2011 and lost the match. Don't take it personal, I like Fed and he played better than Nadal and that's all that matters. But the million threads being created about his "new tactics" and him winning bc he "successfully exploited Nadal's backhand" are just bogus. Nadal played terribly and Federer played great.

As a Federer fan, I pretty much agree. When Nadal's playing well and the score is close, Federer falters. He starts to miss more second serve returns and second guess his own game plan. When Nadal's a little (or a lot) off, Federer can swing freely and remain confident.

OddJack
03-18-2012, 09:49 PM
Bottom line- wet weather. ball doesn't kick up as high. Plus windy weather making Nadal uncertain (which he usually isn't).

Better pray for rain at Miami :lol:

At least Nadal has won IW couple of times.

Seems like he's the one needing pray for a Miami title.

MichaelNadal
03-18-2012, 09:50 PM
As a Federer fan, I pretty much agree. When Nadal's playing well and the score is close, Federer falters. He starts to miss more second serve returns and second guess his own game plan. When Nadal's a little (or a lot) off, Federer can swing freely and remain confident.

Thanks for keeping it real man. I don't get why people have to act like Nadal was playing the match of his life and Federer just blew 100% Rafa off the court. Federer played better and won, just be happy with that. Jeez.

Towser83
03-18-2012, 09:53 PM
Order will be restored next time they play, calm down guys. If I didn't see the match, id think Rafa played well with the way u guys are acting. The guy had 1 forehand winner in an hour of tennis and was pushing.

No one said Federer was going to win every match from now on or that this changed something, but Federer could have well let nadal back in the match and lost. Federer played better than he often has against Nadal, right from the first game.

Whatever happens, it's just nice to see him have a positive attiude. Like many of you nadal fans were over the moon nadal tried in the AO final, I just hope to see Federer try to play a good match even if he loses. He will probably lose the next one but I hope he at least learns what can work for him.

Of course though whenever fed plays bad it's cos Nadal is making him, but with Nadal if he ever plays bad let's just use it as an excuse to take away the win from his opponent. Probably hasn't ever lost a match when playing above dreadful.

You have become really quite miserable since Nadal suffered about the 5th Novak loss. Even Clarky had better praise for Fed's prformace. I mean we know nadal didn't play great but that doesn't mean Federer didn't have to play well to win like he did.

OddJack
03-18-2012, 09:53 PM
Please. Federer was attacking much better with his backhand for example at RG 2011 and lost the match. Don't take it personal, I like Fed and he played better than Nadal and that's all that matters. But the million threads being created about his "new tactics" and him winning bc he "successfully exploited Nadal's backhand" are just bogus. Nadal played terribly and Federer played great.

Well that's great.

Please tell Nadal fans to please shut up about the H2H, because whenever he has won he played great and Federer played terribly.

Towser83
03-18-2012, 09:55 PM
Thanks for keeping it real man. I don't get why people have to act like Nadal was playing the match of his life and Federer just blew 100% Rafa off the court. Federer played better and won, just be happy with that. Jeez.

Who acted like that? Did I say anywhere Nadal played great? Federer still had to win the match and he got broken back from a break up and almost blew a double break lead. More importantly he cae out with belief. Sorry but you used to be a great poster but you've just become bitter since Nadal started losing more.

DarthFed
03-18-2012, 09:55 PM
Thanks for keeping it real man. I don't get why people have to act like Nadal was playing the match of his life and Federer just blew 100% Rafa off the court. Federer played better and won, just be happy with that. Jeez.

Dont be a hypocrite, if you change Nadals name to Djokovic, and Federers to Nadal you know exactly what kind of reaction would occur on the forum. We'd have the SAME sort of topic. People get excited when their player does well...why others have to "keep it real" and kill their parade idk...i'd like to think everyone is over 5.

MichaelNadal
03-18-2012, 09:58 PM
Who acted like that? Did I say anywhere Nadal played great? Federer still had to win the match and he got broken back from a break up and almost blew a double break lead. More importantly he cae out with belief. Sorry but you used to be a great poster but you've just become bitter since Nadal started losing more.

Lol im not bitter, but it's just funny how no one is mentioning how poorly Rafa played. It's been reversed plenty of times where Rafa beat a subpar Fed. The difference is Rafa fans didn't create 20 threads about what Rafa "did right". @at your last post, if they did create those topics they'd be just as delusional. Had Nadal won the AO final, he wouldn't have done anything better except play with more aggression. Not have "new tactics"

wilkinru
03-18-2012, 09:58 PM
The best match Ive ever seen fed play was madrid 2009 final.

That is the blueprint on how to beat nadal. Has been for 3 years now. Watch that match. Fed goes balls out offense and redlines his game.

He will win or lose depending on how he is feeling that day. As he gets older, he will not feel as good as often...

DarthFed
03-18-2012, 10:00 PM
Lol im not bitter, but it's just funny how no one is mentioning how poorly Rafa played. It's been reversed plenty of times where Rafa beat a subpar Fed. The difference is Rafa fans didn't create 20 threads about what Rafa "did right".

For one he's expected to beat federer. And two......i think you see what you want to see because rafa gets MORE than his fair share of dumb threads

tudwell
03-18-2012, 10:02 PM
Dont be a hypocrite, if you change Nadals name to Djokovic, and Federers to Nadal you know exactly what kind of reaction would occur on the forum. We'd have the SAME sort of topic. People get excited when their player does well...why others have to "keep it real" and kill their parade idk...i'd like to think everyone is over 5.

I think he has a point, though. Federer didn't do anything new here. He did what he always does when he beats Nadal. He served well, returned well, and stayed confident throughout the match. I'm ecstatic that Federer won, but this isn't a turning point (as some have suggested) and the tactics he used are the same ones he uses against Nadal, win or lose - he just executed those tactics better here than in other matches.

MichaelNadal
03-18-2012, 10:04 PM
I think he has a point, though. Federer didn't do anything new here. He did what he always does when he beats Nadal. He served well, returned well, and stayed confident throughout the match. I'm ecstatic that Federer won, but this isn't a turning point (as some have suggested) and the tactics he used are the same ones he uses against Nadal, win or lose - he just executed those tactics better here than in other matches.

Can I get a freaking Amen.

DarthFed
03-18-2012, 10:05 PM
I think he has a point, though. Federer didn't do anything new here. He did what he always does when he beats Nadal. He served well, returned well, and stayed confident throughout the match. I'm ecstatic that Federer won, but this isn't a turning point (as some have suggested) and the tactics he used are the same ones he uses against Nadal, win or lose - he just executed those tactics better here than in other matches.

Well yea, i feel the same, but if im in his position im not gonna go around saying "natural order will be restored" there's no need for that. It comes off as petty imo. Its so difficult to actually discuss tennis around here because everything devolves into mudslinging,fingerpointing and trolling the other "camp".People on here have mentioned being married and having kids but all i see are grown men going "haw haw" to one another. Sadly i hear other sporting communities are worse.

Clarky21
03-18-2012, 10:06 PM
Can I get a freaking Amen.



AMEN!!!!


10amens

veritech
03-18-2012, 10:06 PM
surprised no one mentioned the conditions. nadal seemed to have much more trouble under the conditions unlike federer. as we've seen fed's got a great game under windy conditions, so combine that with his strong match streak/momentum, a renewed federer gameplan, and you have a flustered nadal. rafa did not play well because of the opponent and the conditions.

give credit where it's due.

MichaelNadal
03-18-2012, 10:07 PM
Well yea, i feel the same, but if im in his position im not gonna go around saying "natural order will be restored" there's no need for that. It comes off as petty imo. Its so difficult to actually discuss tennis around here because everything devolves into mudslinging,fingerpointing and trolling the other "camp".People on here have mentioned being married and having kids but all i see are grown men going "haw haw" to one another. Sadly i hear other sporting communities are worse.

Well, I apologize for the order will be restored thing honestly. What I was trying to emphasize is that Federer didn't do anything new in the match. He just played really well. Nadal clearly didn't. Did Federer have something to do with that? Of course, but no matter how well someone is playing, you never see Nadal finish a set with one winner. He didn't look anything like Nadal until the last 10 minutes of the match.

OddJack
03-18-2012, 10:08 PM
The best match Ive ever seen fed play was madrid 2009 final.

That is the blueprint on how to beat nadal. Has been for 3 years now. Watch that match. Fed goes balls out offense and redlines his game.

He will win or lose depending on how he is feeling that day. As he gets older, he will not feel as good as often...

And as Nadal gets older he is feeling even worse.

two bathroom breaks while playing doubles. Reminds me of sleepless old men going to restroom in the middle of the night coughing and peesing.

Towser83
03-18-2012, 10:10 PM
Lol im not bitter, but it's just funny how no one is mentioning how poorly Rafa played. It's been reversed plenty of times where Rafa beat a subpar Fed. The difference is Rafa fans didn't create 20 threads about what Rafa "did right". @at your last post, if they did create those topics they'd be just as delusional. Had Nadal won the AO final, he wouldn't have done anything better except play with more aggression. Not have "new tactics"

I'm a Federer fan, do you really want me to make a thread ****ging off Nadal's game? Lol i'll leave that to rafa fans who have been doing it a lot lately. You clarky and namelessone can do that.

and why don't rafa fans make threads about what rafa did right when he beat Fedrer? erm because he ALWAYS beats Federer??. If Nadal beat Djokovic and Djokovic played like crap there would still be topics if Rafa actaully played well himself. You know there would. And what difference does it make if he used new tactics or just played more aggressive? None! It still amounts to the same thing.

Man, Federer comes out with a positive attitude and his fans are just pleased he had the right outlook, and you who I rated as one of the best people here, just have a go at people? I'm kind of glad I've been through the whole process of the fall of my idol many years ago, so I don't actually have to get a pout on when he loses anymore :lol:

If Nadal came out with a good attitude and beat a crappy Djokovic you'd all be obver the moon. A lot of you were pretty happy even though he lost the AO.

Another thing is to play that good in the wind was pretty good stuff. And I disagree slightly that he didn't try anything new, ok he's tried these things before but he did them better and didn't give up on them. I said in my first post stuff like he served well - did i suggest he has never served well before? Of course not, but he doesn't always do it vs Nadal. Same with his choice of when to come into net, same with his belief and shot selection. It often deserts him after a couple of great nadal points.

DarthFed
03-18-2012, 10:12 PM
Well, I apologize for the order will be restored thing honestly. What I was trying to emphasize is that Federer didn't do anything new in the match. He just played really well. Nadal clearly didn't. Did Federer have something to do with that? Of course, but no matter how well someone is playing, you never see Nadal finish a set with one winner. He didn't look anything like Nadal until the last 10 minutes of the match.

Dont get me wrong lol, i agree, but i also understand why the thread was made. People talk **** about old man fed all the time...despite the fact that minus the AO...he's been on an AMAZING run since that USO match and its still going...you know in some years he didnt win a title till like...fall. This year he's won 3 back to back w/o the excuse of the top 4 not being there. People are just excited their favorite player is still very relevant you know what i mean?

OddJack
03-18-2012, 10:17 PM
...Nadal played terribly...

Oh thats too bad, Nadal has won Nothing for 10 months now.

Not a hard court title since 2010

You guys said the same thing W 2011 and USO 2011, that he played terribly.

Guess what, he is gonna continue playing terribly, so get used to it :)

MichaelNadal
03-18-2012, 10:20 PM
I'm a Federer fan, do you really want me to make a thread ****ging off Nadal's game? Lol i'll leave that to rafa fans who have been doing it a lot lately. You clarky and namelessone can do that.

and why don't rafa fans make threads about what rafa did right when he beat Fedrer? erm because he ALWAYS beats Federer??. If Nadal beat Djokovic and Djokovic played like crap there would still be topics if Rafa actaully played well himself. You know there would. And what difference does it make if he used new tactics or just played more aggressive? None! It still amounts to the same thing.

Man, Federer comes out with a positive attitude and his fans are just pleased he had the right outlook, and you who I rated as one of the best people here, just have a go at people? I'm kind of glad I've been through the whole process of the fall of my idol many years ago, so I don't actually have to get a pout on when he loses anymore :lol:

If Nadal came out with a good attitude and beat a crappy Djokovic you'd all be obver the moon. A lot of you were pretty happy even though he lost the AO.

Another thing is to play that good in the wind was pretty good stuff. And I disagree slightly that he didn't try anything new, ok he's tried these things before but he did them better and didn't give up on them. I said in my first post stuff like he served well - did i suggest he has never served well before? Of course not, but he doesn't always do it vs Nadal. Same with his choice of when to come into net, same with his belief and shot selection. It often deserts him after a couple of great nadal points.

You're taking me way too serious tonight, im not having a go at anyone. The only thing I didn't agree with is the whole "Federer is attacking Nadal's backhand like Djokovic"....... "Federer learned the tactic to beat Rafa from Novak!!" and all that garbage. You're right though. Nadal could beat an injured Djokovic on crutches tomorrow and id throw confetti in the air.

Towser83
03-18-2012, 10:20 PM
Dont get me wrong lol, i agree, but i also understand why the thread was made. People talk **** about old man fed all the time...despite the fact that minus the AO...he's been on an AMAZING run since that USO match and its still going...you know in some years he didnt win a title till like...fall. This year he's won 3 back to back w/o the excuse of the top 4 not being there. People are just excited their favorite player is still very relevant you know what i mean?

well people are discussing what federer did well on match threads and various others, i just wanted to sum up stuff in one thread. Didn't know it would cause such a ****storm. Didn't insult nadal at all, but that was my mistake, i should of said how ****poor and useless he was. In future when pleased about any match a player wins against nadal, i will specify that Nadal brought it on himself.

Jeez, i've said 100 times that nadal did not turn up in the wtf match.

Incidentally, anytime a nadal fan talks about how awesome Nadal was in 2008, especailly at RG, do they always remember to say how crap Federer played, and how he choked Hamburg and choked break points at Wimbledon? I'm talking nadal fans, not fed fans.

Towser83
03-18-2012, 10:23 PM
You're taking me way too serious tonight, im not having a go at anyone. The only thing I didn't agree with is the whole "Federer is attacking Nadal's backhand like Djokovic"....... "Federer learned the tactic to beat Rafa from Novak!!" and all that garbage. You're right though. Nadal could beat an injured Djokovic on crutches tomorrow and id throw confetti in the air.

Yeah but I never said that anywhere in my thread. I literally did not mention him attacking his backhand or learning it from Nole (which I agree is crap) I'm just saying all the elements of his game were good (volley, serve, shot selection, attitude) and I was pleased he did it. I even said I don't know if he can do itt again or if it's a one off. So I get you're ****ed with people saying stuff but I don't think anything I said was guilty of being what you saying it is

OddJack
03-18-2012, 10:24 PM
You guys will know how terribly Nadal plays when he draws Delpo this week.

All Delpo anger of 4 losses to Rodge this year will come down on Nadal's hairless head for most possible damage.

MichaelNadal
03-18-2012, 10:24 PM
well people are discussing what federer did well on match threads and various others, i just wanted to sum up stuff in one thread. Didn't know it would cause such a ****storm. Didn't insult nadal at all, but that was my mistake, i should of said how ****poor and useless he was. In future when pleased about any match a player wins against nadal, i will specify that Nadal brought it on himself.

Jeez, i've said 100 times that nadal did not turn up in the wtf match.

Incidentally, anytime a nadal fan talks about how awesome Nadal was in 2008, especailly at RG, do they always remember to say how crap Federer played, and how he choked Hamburg and choked break points at Wimbledon? I'm talking nadal fans, not fed fans.

Federer played so badly it goes without saying. During their AO match this year when Federer had that really bad patch I even mentioned he was looking almost as bad as he did at the FO in 08. Reguardless of the final, Nadal played devastating tennis that whole year.

MichaelNadal
03-18-2012, 10:25 PM
Yeah but I never said that anywhere in my thread. I literally did not mention him attacking his backhand or learning it from Nole (which I agree is crap) I'm just saying all the elements of his game were good (volley, serve, shot selection, attitude) and I was pleased he did it. I even said I don't know if he can do itt again or if it's a one off. So I get you're ****ed with people saying stuff but I don't think anything I said was guilty of being what you saying it is

I think you think i was singling you out and that's not the case.

DarthFed
03-18-2012, 10:30 PM
well people are discussing what federer did well on match threads and various others, i just wanted to sum up stuff in one thread. Didn't know it would cause such a ****storm. Didn't insult nadal at all, but that was my mistake, i should of said how ****poor and useless he was. In future when pleased about any match a player wins against nadal, i will specify that Nadal brought it on himself.

Jeez, i've said 100 times that nadal did not turn up in the wtf match.

Incidentally, anytime a nadal fan talks about how awesome Nadal was in 2008, especailly at RG, do they always remember to say how crap Federer played, and how he choked Hamburg and choked break points at Wimbledon? I'm talking nadal fans, not fed fans.

You forgot what forum we were on lol. And i was agreeing that he didnt do anything particularly "new".

Towser83
03-18-2012, 10:32 PM
Federer played so badly it goes without saying. During their AO match this year when Federer had that really bad patch I even mentioned he was looking almost as bad as he did at the FO in 08. Reguardless of the final, Nadal played devastating tennis that whole year.

Well that's convienient :lol: Maybe nadal played so bad here it also goes without saying? Point is if you're player plays well you're going to focus on that rather than the opponent playing bad. Doesn't mean you're denying it. I would actually expect angry nadal fans if i stated he was terrible or something.

I think you think i was singling you out and that's not the case.

Ok fair enough, just it was me who started the thread and you seemed opposed to the whole idea.

MichaelNadal
03-18-2012, 10:38 PM
Well that's convienient :lol: Maybe nadal played so bad here it also goes without saying? Point is if you're player plays well you're going to focus on that rather than the opponent playing bad. Doesn't mean you're denying it. I would actually expect angry nadal fans if i stated he was terrible or something.



Ok fair enough, just it was me who started the thread and you seemed opposed to the whole idea.

@The first part of your post it's not like that. People are going on about the backhand thing and new tactics as if Federer cracked the peak Rafa code or something, that's what im saying. If Rafa played like he did at the AO and lost the match then you guys would have a valid point. He looked like a completely different person yesterday though.

Nathaniel_Near
03-18-2012, 10:39 PM
3. Volleys. Too often Federer comes in off a weak approach and promtly gets passed. Sometimes Nadal hits a great couple of shots to get into a Federer service game and Federer panics, tries to end the point too soon by coming in out of hope than real intelligence and pays the price. He forces the issue too much coming in when really he should know the shot isn't good enough. Then after he gets burnt a few times he stops coming in. In the first set in the IW semi, he won 9 out of 9 net aproaches and 12 of 13 overall. This is fantastic from Federer. He came in to net at the right times, played good vollies and didn't give up when Nadal won points at net (though obviously he only won one point when Federer made the aproach) Federer really displayed the total opposite of what he usually does at net vs Nadal.


Need to add one thing. It was easier in this match for Federer to win points at the net, as the responses were going to be typically more unsure and weaker than usual due to the wind. Federer used this to his advantage brilliantly, and forced the issue and cut out the wind issue for himself by making well timed ventures to the net, with Nadal's responses being more confused and less convincing than usual.

Federer played a smart match in the conditions and had his game face on.

Nathaniel_Near
03-18-2012, 10:43 PM
I don't agree that Nadal producing few winners in a set = he played poorly. When he gets blitzed, he gets blitzed. That's his game and how it can sometimes be. It was similar during set one of the WTF 2010 Finals. Federer was showcasing too much firepower and Nadal didn't have a clue and had to fight his way into the match. You can take the game away from Rafa and he'll not have much chance to produce anything. With roger it's different, when he's getting blitzed he always has the firepower to at least produce an equal-ish amount of winners to the opponent, because that's his game.

Sometimes when Nadal is getting heavily groped, he is playing fine, and sometimes not, but Nadal hitting 1 2 3 winners in the odd set when another player is donning the ninja cap doesn't have to or always = Nadal sucks bawls.

Towser83
03-18-2012, 10:44 PM
@The first part of your post it's not like that. People are going on about the backhand thing and new tactics as if Federer cracked the peak Rafa code or something, that's what im saying. If Rafa played like he did at the AO and lost the match then you guys would have a valid point. He looked like a completely different person yesterday though.

well personally i never said that he cracked peak rafa, but he came out stuck to his game and hit his shots well. He gave himself the best chance he could and that's all he could do, but he could have easily played crap himself. He almost got broken the first game which could have set the match on a very different course. He also could have choked after losing the break lead and like i said it was great to play as well as he did in very windy conditions. I would have expected his serve to be much more error filled and also more errors in general.

MichaelNadal
03-18-2012, 10:47 PM
well personally i never said that he cracked peak rafa, but he came out stuck to his game and hit his shots well. He gave himself the best chance he could and that's all he could do, but he could have easily played crap himself. He almost got broken the first game which could have set the match on a very different course. He also could have choked after losing the break lead and like i said it was great to play as well as he did in very windy conditions. I would have expected his serve to be much more error filled and also more errors in general.

All this I can agree with, good post.

Towser83
03-18-2012, 10:47 PM
I don't agree that Nadal producing few winners in a set = he played poorly. When he gets blitzed, he gets blitzed. That's his game and how it can sometimes be. It was similar during set one of the WTF 2010 Finals. Federer was showcasing too much firepower and Nadal didn't have a clue and had to fight his way into the match. You can take the game away from Rafa and he'll not have much chance to produce anything. With roger it's different, when he's getting blitzed he always has the firepower to at least produce an equal-ish amount of winners to the opponent, because that's his game.

Sometimes when Nadal is getting heavily groped, he is playing fine, and sometimes not, but Nadal hitting 1 2 3 winners in the odd set when another player is donning the ninja cap doesn't have to or always = Nadal sucks bawls.

Yeah I mean I've seen nadal playing well not hit that many winners. He often hits less winners than an oponent he beats easily. In the Miami match last year didn't Federer have more winners? nadal had about 10 or something in a match he totally dominated?

I don't think he did play well but it isn't like he usually hits loads of winners every time he plays well, he extracts a lot of errors. Personally I look at nadal's own errors as the real sign and he made too many as the match went on.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-18-2012, 10:47 PM
Please. Federer was attacking much better with his backhand for example at RG 2011 and lost the match. Don't take it personal, I like Fed and he played better than Nadal and that's all that matters. But the million threads being created about his "new tactics" and him winning bc he "successfully exploited Nadal's backhand" are just bogus. Nadal played terribly and Federer played great.

Actually I might agree with this obtuse poster for once.

OddJack
03-18-2012, 10:48 PM
Bottom line,

Nadal is happy with his progress. Who are you guys to say any different?

:)

Bed time, damn long Monday tomorrow.

Goodnight

Towser83
03-18-2012, 10:48 PM
All this I can agree with, good post.

ok cool, glad we found somethng to agree on in the end :)

Towser83
03-18-2012, 10:50 PM
Actually I might agree with this obtuse poster for once.

He is probably right, but this time Fed didn't choke when in charge of the 1st set (well he got broken but broke back) not new tactics just sticking with it and playing better

Nathaniel_Near
03-18-2012, 10:51 PM
Yeah I mean I've seen nadal playing well not hit that many winners. He often hits less winners than an oponent he beats easily. In the Miami match last year didn't Federer have more winners? nadal had about 10 or something in a match he totally dominated?

I don't think he did play well but it isn't like he usually hits loads of winners every time he plays well, he extracts a lot of errors. Personally I look at nadal's own errors as the real sign and he made too many as the match went on.

To look at his errors would tend to be the more salient angle of analysis.

fed_rulz
03-18-2012, 11:09 PM
Federer seems to have buried ******** (at least temporarily) -- remember those horror times when as a Fed fan you felt that the point was over if it ever exceeded 4 shots from the baseline?? ******** did rear his ugly head during his match vs Rafa at the AO, but for the most part, it is refreshing to see Federer play clean matches.

while most of you are going gaga over Federer's BH, I pick his FH as the reason for his recent success. That wing had lost its bite, and only recently seems to regaining its former glory.

Nathaniel_Near
03-18-2012, 11:11 PM
Federer seems to have buried ******** (at least temporarily) -- remember those horror times when as a Fed fan you felt that the point was over if it ever exceeded 4 shots from the baseline?? ******** did rear his ugly head during his match vs Rafa at the AO, but for the most part, it is refreshing to see Federer play clean matches.

while most of you are going gaga over Federer's BH, I pick his FH as the reason for his recent success. That wing had lost its bite, and only recently seems to regaining its former glory.

Concurred.

DarthFed
03-18-2012, 11:36 PM
Federer seems to have buried ******** (at least temporarily) -- remember those horror times when as a Fed fan you felt that the point was over if it ever exceeded 4 shots from the baseline?? ******** did rear his ugly head during his match vs Rafa at the AO, but for the most part, it is refreshing to see Federer play clean matches.

while most of you are going gaga over Federer's BH, I pick his FH as the reason for his recent success. That wing had lost its bite, and only recently seems to regaining its former glory.

So it wasnt just me haha

monfed
03-18-2012, 11:44 PM
A few points that kindof stuck with me in this match -

1) Federer's BH returning, he was barely missing not allowing Nadal to get free points which he almost always does. "Federer makes Nadal look like Karlovic", ring a bell?

2) Federer's DTL BH - A critical yet difficult shot to execute on a regular basis against the lasso FH which Federer needed to use to change direction of play when he's caught in the FH-BH web. He hit it with purpose and barely made UEs off it. Fed was 60+ points won on his second serve which indicates he was winning the rallies(often not the case). Sublime stuff.

3) The momentum DIDNOT switch at the beginning of the second set, meaning Nadal didn't go 2-0 up. I've lost count of how many times this has happened in their matches where Nadal comes out after losing the first set and goes up 2-0 or 3-1 in the second and Fed end's up playing catch up from then on or worse still never recovers.


4) Fed's body language was just different, he looked purposeful(didn't drop his shoulders when broken)and didn't let up on his strategy of "when in trouble go to Nadal's BH", although you can bet your bottom dollar it's not as easy to do for Fed as it is for Djokovic(due to point 2).

Other things like high FS%, converting breakpoints , while being extremely crucial, are mandatory against Nadal to win.

Things Fed needs to improve upon -

1)Consolidation of breaks.Going up 3-0 and then lose 3 straight games is something he can ill-afford on a regular basis against Nadal.

2) Believing he can comeback in the match when down, note that he was never down a break in this match so we still can't say for sure how he would've reacted. So in a sense he wasn't tested in that regard.

TopFH
03-19-2012, 12:17 AM
What I took from the match was the ESPN Latin American commentators. At one point they said something like "Federer is trying to miss, but he can't".

merlinpinpin
03-19-2012, 12:44 AM
4. shot choice. Federer played a very clever match, he knew exactly whan to wrong foot nadal and go back behind him, he didctated play and seemed to have a feel for how to construct points. His defense was much better than I exected it to be.

About shot selection, there was another very important point which helped him adapt better to the windy environment: he really let rip that forehand, often playing it flatter than usual for him. Theorically, he should have made more mistakes that way, but the faster the ball's going, the lesser the wind impact, so going full out in fact *reduced* the number of errors (while taking time off from Nadal and making *him* miss, ie clearly a win-win situation).

Now he just have to keep doing it even when there's no wind, and punish that ball as often as he can... ;)

coloskier
03-19-2012, 08:18 AM
About shot selection, there was another very important point which helped him adapt better to the windy environment: he really let rip that forehand, often playing it flatter than usual for him. Theorically, he should have made more mistakes that way, but the faster the ball's going, the lesser the wind impact, so going full out in fact *reduced* the number of errors (while taking time off from Nadal and making *him* miss, ie clearly a win-win situation).

Now he just have to keep doing it even when there's no wind, and punish that ball as often as he can... ;)

You are quite correct that he "let it rip". However, you might notice that he "let it rip" when hitting against the wind, and that he was hitting quite a few high rollers with the wind at his back. Nadal was hitting most of his shots 10-15 feet behind the baseline, on both sides of the court, because of this strategy, which made it a lot easier for Fed to dictate the points. Look at how many low short balls that Fed hit to Nadal's BH that Nadal could barely reach, and half the time plopped into the net. I bet he won at least 10 points on that shot alone.

jackson vile
03-19-2012, 09:35 AM
What he did right was stop being a "fancy boy" and manned up for once. He has always had the game to defeat Nadal, however he was always afraid to break a sweat or something.

Plain and simple Federer busted his ***, it will be nice to stop hearing all the excuses about him being so old, past his prime, match up, etc.

zagor
03-19-2012, 09:40 AM
What he did right was stop being a "fancy boy" and manned up for once. He has always had the game to defeat Nadal, however he was always afraid to break a sweat or something.

Actually this is the 10th time he manned up against Nadal, including 2 Wimbledon finals. As usual, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Plain and simple Federer busted his ***, it will be nice to stop hearing all the excuses about him being so old, past his prime, match up, etc.

Yes those excuses have really run their course, better to just claim his tennis is sloppy, subpeak, flat, uninspiring etc. right?

TMF
03-19-2012, 09:56 AM
Plain and simple Federer busted his ***, it will be nice to stop hearing all the excuses about him being so old, past his prime, match up, etc.

Facts are not excuses.

mattennis
03-19-2012, 10:11 AM
Federer is, possibly, the best tennis player under very windy conditions. It is amazing how well he could control the ball, how he could hit through the wind....

He is even better than Agassi at that (Agassi was one of the greatest in very windy conditions).

On the other hand, Federer is just playing better than all the rest in the last 6 months.

Nadal and Djokovic are not at their 2011 level and Federer is playing better than last year, that is why he is winning everything.

He is getting nš2 very soon, and he can get to nš1 in the following months.

It is great, seeing him again at this high tennis level.

elpolaco84
03-19-2012, 01:50 PM
Question: how many times Nadal defeated Federer without losing his serve at least once??

sureshs
03-19-2012, 01:56 PM
Watching the Federer vs nadal match I noticed a few things, I know people have probably mentioned them all but I wanted to sum up what I think Federer did well in the match.

1. Serving. Serve percentage was high in the first set (about 74%) and he was overall very good at clutch serving (perfectly demonstrated by the ace on match point) this was very impressive given the wind.

2. Backhand. Federer really hit his backhand with purpose and attack. He didn't just slice it back and give Nadal an easy ball to hit, he used it as a weapon and made few errors off it. Nadal was unable to attack either wing enough and thus had no fallback plan to go to.

3. Volleys. Too often Federer comes in off a weak approach and promtly gets passed. Sometimes Nadal hits a great couple of shots to get into a Federer service game and Federer panics, tries to end the point too soon by coming in out of hope than real intelligence and pays the price. He forces the issue too much coming in when really he should know the shot isn't good enough. Then after he gets burnt a few times he stops coming in. In the first set in the IW semi, he won 9 out of 9 net aproaches and 12 of 13 overall. This is fantastic from Federer. He came in to net at the right times, played good vollies and didn't give up when Nadal won points at net (though obviously he only won one point when Federer made the aproach) Federer really displayed the total opposite of what he usually does at net vs Nadal.

4. shot choice. Federer played a very clever match, he knew exactly whan to wrong foot nadal and go back behind him, he didctated play and seemed to have a feel for how to construct points. His defense was much better than I exected it to be.

5. Attitude. Federer looked ike he meant business and believed he was going to win. When he got broken back in the first set he stuck to his task and didn't lose composure. Same in the second set when he lost one break.

EDIT. Tudwell mentioned breakpoints as well, here Federer took his chances better than he has done in a lot of mathes

The question is, can Federer do this on a regular basis or was this a rare show of form? Federer needs to rewatch the tape and remember what he did!

The first point is really not valid - who would not want to serve well if he could?

In the games prior to the last (when Nadal broke Fed and then held serve), it was clear to me that that was the Nadal who can easily beat Fed. Fed looked helpless. But in the final game, Nadal did not have it in him to keep it up.

boojay
03-19-2012, 02:04 PM
Anyone else loving that a past-his-prime 30-year old Federer has mopped the floor with a peak Nadal (playing the absolute best tennis of his life) two of the last three times they've met?

I sure am.

Rafa's new nickname should be Nada.

Nathaniel_Near
03-19-2012, 02:07 PM
Anyone else loving that a past-his-prime 30-year old Federer has mopped the floor with a peak Nadal (playing the absolute best tennis of his life) two of the last three times they've met?

I sure am.

Rafa's new nickname should be Nada.

Yes happy, but no Slam win.

Clarky21
03-19-2012, 02:24 PM
Anyone else loving that a past-his-prime 30-year old Federer has mopped the floor with a peak Nadal (playing the absolute best tennis of his life) two of the last three times they've met?

I sure am.

Rafa's new nickname should be Nada.


Ridiculous post.

sureshs
03-19-2012, 02:46 PM
Anyone else loving that a past-his-prime 30-year old Federer has mopped the floor with a peak Nadal (playing the absolute best tennis of his life) two of the last three times they've met?

I sure am.

Rafa's new nickname should be Nada.

Nada will win Slams and the Olympics singles this year and Fed will be left with nada, beating Djokovic and Nada when they are exhausted between Slams and Olympics, or at the end of the year when only he is fresh because he has not gone as deep as them.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-19-2012, 02:56 PM
Wasn't Nadal fresh for IW?

sureshs
03-19-2012, 03:45 PM
Wasn't Nadal fresh for IW?

Who was in the AO final - Fed or Rafa?

FlashFlare11
03-19-2012, 03:48 PM
Who was in the AO final - Fed or Rafa?

By my count, it's been about 4-5 weeks since that final. Does it take them that long to recover?

Warriors, aren't they?

Towser83
03-19-2012, 05:37 PM
The first point is really not valid - who would not want to serve well if he could?

In the games prior to the last (when Nadal broke Fed and then held serve), it was clear to me that that was the Nadal who can easily beat Fed. Fed looked helpless. But in the final game, Nadal did not have it in him to keep it up.

It is valid. I just said that Federer served well which he doesn't always, i didn't say that the other times he didn't want to serve well.

This isn't all about tactics, it's about execution.

DjokovicForTheWin
03-19-2012, 06:55 PM
Who was in the AO final - Fed or Rafa?

Djokovic, I didn't really notice Nadal even playing, did you?

OddJack
03-19-2012, 06:56 PM
The first point is really not valid - who would not want to serve well if he could?

In the games prior to the last (when Nadal broke Fed and then held serve), it was clear to me that that was the Nadal who can easily beat Fed. Fed looked helpless. But in the final game, Nadal did not have it in him to keep it up.

It's not about wanting, it's about wanting and executing. He did, so that's one of the winning factors.

above bored
03-19-2012, 07:39 PM
Order will be restored next time they play, calm down guys. If I didn't see the match, id think Rafa played well with the way u guys are acting. The guy had 1 forehand winner in an hour of tennis and was pushing.
Nadal had one forehand winner because Federer was the aggressor, as usual, and played very well to keep Nadal on the back foot. As we all know, Federer defends very well so no one is going to fit a huge amount of winners against him anyway.

Nadal did not play badly, he was outplayed by a superior opponent on the day. Had he been playing any other player apart from Djokovic he would probably have won.

MichaelNadal
03-19-2012, 08:12 PM
Nadal had one forehand winner because Federer was the aggressor, as usual, and played very well to keep Nadal on the back foot. As we all know, Federer defends very well so no one is going to fit a huge amount of winners against him anyway.

Nadal did not play badly, he was outplayed by a superior opponent on the day. Had he been playing any other player apart from Djokovic he would probably have won.

You keep telling yourself that. No matter how aggressive someone is, Nadal is gonna hit forehand winners. Surely you know he is more than capable of making Federer run. When Nadal started playing SOMEWHAT like himself in the last 15 mins he was hitting winners, Federer was still playing great, so how did Rafa start hitting winners? Oh ok.

Nathaniel_Near
03-19-2012, 08:16 PM
Nadal didn't play like himself at all near the end, he played OUTSIDE of his standard very good level. He can't sustain himself like that where he's hitting 3 (I think) forehand winners in one game. This is not how he operates.

Nadal could have played better during the match, but this isn't the point I'm making. BTW usually when Nadal plays a top player, even when playing well he usually ends up with less winners and sometimes significantly less, but also many less errors.

dh003i
03-19-2012, 08:22 PM
Thanks for keeping it real man. I don't get why people have to act like Nadal was playing the match of his life and Federer just blew 100% Rafa off the court. Federer played better and won, just be happy with that. Jeez.

Perhaps if Nadal fans would admit that every time Nadal beats Federer, it wasn't Nadal playing subpar and Federer playing the match of his life, the realism could be returned in kind.

dh003i
03-19-2012, 08:25 PM
The first point is really not valid - who would not want to serve well if he could?

In the games prior to the last (when Nadal broke Fed and then held serve), it was clear to me that that was the Nadal who can easily beat Fed. Fed looked helpless. But in the final game, Nadal did not have it in him to keep it up.

Typical. When Nadal is outplaying Federer, Nadal is playing good and forcing Federer to play bad. When Federer is outplaying Nadal, Nadal is just playing poorly which allows Federer to take advantage.

Nathaniel_Near
03-19-2012, 08:30 PM
Typical. When Nadal is outplaying Federer, Nadal is playing good and forcing Federer to play bad. When Federer is outplaying Nadal, Nadal is just playing poorly which allows Federer to take advantage.

This is very much the overall vibe, yes. Well put, btw.

MichaelNadal
03-19-2012, 08:32 PM
Typical. When Nadal is outplaying Federer, Nadal is playing good and forcing Federer to play bad. When Federer is outplaying Nadal, Nadal is just playing poorly which allows Federer to take advantage.

Not at all. Wimbledon 07 anyone? There are plenty of matches where Federer beat Rafa while he was playing well, saturday wasn't one of them, get over it.

Nathaniel_Near
03-19-2012, 08:35 PM
Roger won and Rafa lost, they both came to play and that's that. Rafa's form was quite good but he was mentally weak in dealing with the wind and admitted in the press conference that he only figured out the correct way to play the situation near the end of the match. Federer was a tactical tour de force and Rafa a tactical noob, as far as this match goes.

MichaelNadal
03-19-2012, 08:41 PM
^^And I completely agree with everything you just said, which is all im trying to say, the same thing you are.

Nathaniel_Near
03-19-2012, 08:42 PM
Interestingly, Federer only won 64% of his first serve points and many of those would have been non returned serves or aces. Rafa has a real hold on Fed's first service. In fact, the serve seemed to mean practically bugger all in this latest match: Fed won 64% and 65% and Rafa 58% and 44% on first and second serves respectively. Federer served at 64% and Rafa at 71%.

Nathaniel_Near
03-19-2012, 08:48 PM
^^And I completely agree with everything you just said, which is all im trying to say, the same thing you are.

The fact is, Roger and Rafa both have this capacity to make the other player look like absolute crap, with Rafa being able to do it more frequently than Roger. The match-up is extremely volatile. In almost every case, the losing player is playing better than it may appear - for example, when Federer is blitzing and attacking it doesn't matter how well Nadal is playing, he's going to be way way behind in winners, and when Nadal is at full flight he will draw an amazing amount of forced errors out of players through tenacity, stamina and will, which go down as UE on the stats and paints a negative picture. Ultimately the thing that should be talked about here is how well Federer played, as it's far more significant than how standard Nadal's overall level was (good form, silly tactics).

Roger in this match was blitzing and high risk but still hit more winners than errors and in windy conditions; very impressive. I'm half expecting a rematch between these two in the finals of Miami.

World Beater
03-20-2012, 06:41 AM
nice win for roger. but he is far away from beating nadal in a 5 set match.

celoft
03-20-2012, 06:53 AM
Order will be restored next time they play, calm down guys. If I didn't see the match, id think Rafa played well with the way u guys are acting. The guy had 1 forehand winner in an hour of tennis and was pushing.

If they meet in the Miami final, Federer will win....

Crisstti
03-20-2012, 04:43 PM
He had one FH winner because he was busy defending his bh.

And pushing is what he does, how do you think he has lost all those finals to Djoker, by attacking??

No, it's not. Actually, in a match like that one can see the difference of when he pushes and when he doesn't.

GhostDog
03-20-2012, 05:02 PM
Fed pretty much played the way many of us have been begging him to play. Let's see if this bolds well for the rest of the majors. I'll give him one final shot at winning Wimby or the US Open if he plays this way.

keithfival
03-20-2012, 05:08 PM
When asked in the presser why he stuck to the tactics in this match but went away from them in Australia, Fed himself said "Rafa has also a big say on how the points are being played", so obviously he agrees with what's being said here that it's not simply a matter of using this gameplan, it's that this time he was able to do it but other times Rafa doesn't let him do it.

So, I agree with Fed.