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View Full Version : federer - best returner of fast serves?


Jack Romeo
03-18-2012, 09:57 PM
seeing how roger diffused isner and raonic this week made me think that he has to be one of the best, if not the best, returner of fast serves. particularly fast right-handed serves. (too bad there aren't any fast-serving lefties like goran ivanisevic playing these days - maybe roger can prove himself against those types of players too). he obviously has the best feel for faster courts and quicker-paced shots. i mean he lost to isner on clay (at home!) but handled him pretty well just now when the conditions should theoretically favor the big server.

nadal said that djokovic has the best return, maybe because he feels his own serve gets threatened more by novak than by roger. i guess roger does have a little more of a problem handling the heavy lefty spin of nadal's serve. but this week, when the court played slicker because of the conditions, the spin wasn't as accentuated and roger took charge with his return, even off the backhand. it was the same thing he does every time they meet at the tour finals. other courts tend to emphasize the effect of spin more so federer has more trouble, but not so on a faster, lower-bouncing court.

i think djokovic also returned isner's serve pretty well but he himself didn't serve as well as roger. novak could be better at handling the spinning serves on a slower court. but if you look at roger's career results against big servers, he seems to own them all. he beat sampras in their only professional match. he totally owns roddick and has a great record against others like karlovic.

how do you think roger's return stacks up against other great returners, namely andre agassi (who played in the era of some of the biggest bombers like becker, sampras and ivanisevic), lleyton hewitt (in his prime), as well as his own contemporaries like djokovic, nadal and andy murray?

jayoub95
03-18-2012, 10:17 PM
Indeed he is a great returner of fast serves. He watches the ball so closely so i guess thats the most obvious reason as to why.

OddJack
03-18-2012, 10:19 PM
Aye, he is. Best returner of fast serves, hardest guy to ace.

pvaudio
03-18-2012, 10:21 PM
No, Federer is not up there with Agassi and Hewitt. When Agassi, who's considered the greatest returner ever says that Hewitt is the hardest person to serve against, that pretty much puts it into perspective. Federer simply uses his head: the big servers of today do not have ground games OR are not used to their serves coming back. Roddick, Karlovic, Isner, Del Potro. Return deep, slice it low, etc. They're done.

RCizzle65
03-18-2012, 10:22 PM
(too bad there aren't any fast-serving lefties like goran ivanisevic playing these days - maybe roger can prove himself against those types of players too)

There is, Lopez

BobFL
03-18-2012, 10:31 PM
Imo, Roger is by far the best serve - reader on tour...

Fed Kennedy
03-18-2012, 10:31 PM
Hes actually just the best tennis player

Wilander Fan
03-18-2012, 10:32 PM
I would agree with this. I think Fed reads servers really well. Belluci has a big left serve as well which Fed handled. He does have problems at Wimb though. Both Berdych and Tsonga were overpowering Fed with their serves on grass where they were not able to do it later on HC.

Towser83
03-18-2012, 10:40 PM
The key I think is, Federer reads serves very well. Djokovic actually does more with a normal serve, in other words he often gets the ball back in a very tough place that takes the server out of control of the point, however with a big server a lot of times you just want to get the ball back into play and try and not set them up for an easy put away. Federer is better at getting those hard serves back into play probably because he reads the serve a bit better.

SeeingDusk
03-18-2012, 10:43 PM
I agree. He always has been good at returning big serves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxzFlrFfUrg

BobFL
03-18-2012, 10:59 PM
I agree. He always has been good at returning big serves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxzFlrFfUrg

That was legendary but Roddick at the same time :) Fast, flat and predictable - Fed's favorite serve to be dismantled in no time.

Cup8489
03-18-2012, 11:03 PM
That was legendary but Roddick at the same time :) Fast, flat and predictable - Fed's favorite serve to be dismantled in no time.

he actually did the exact same thing to Isner today. Right on the line, flick of the wrist, unplayable. When I saw that, I immediately thought of the video just posted.

Radical Shot
03-18-2012, 11:09 PM
I remember when they interviewed Rog before his Wimbledon final against Mark. The interviewer asked if his big serve would be an issue, especially on grass. I'll always remember the casual way in which Roger simply said something like...."I can handle big serves - it won't be a problem".

Love all
03-18-2012, 11:12 PM
Yes he is, no doubt.

Bobby Jr
03-18-2012, 11:20 PM
That was legendary but Roddick at the same time :) Fast, flat and predictable - Fed's favorite serve to be dismantled in no time.
I try to point this out whenever people say Roddick has a better serve than Federer (or whoever else is being discussed). Lack of variety and placement renders pace almost irrelevant. Roddick has proven this point over and over, year after year.

Federer is, without doubt, the best person in decades to figure out big servers - and definitely better at it than Hewitt.

purge
03-18-2012, 11:24 PM
hes always done very well against the serving giants. compared to roddick who usually hit like 30 aces in a regular best of 3 match compared to federers 10 or something, but when they played each other andy barely ever lead the ace count. acing federer with rocket serves is about 2-3 times harder than against most other players.

its not all just the return tho. federers obviously been very good at exploiting the big guys weaknesses further into the rallies. moving them around with his mix of angles and spins always put the screws to them. also mindset is a big thing here. he seems to shrug it off better than others if he gets a couple aces fired past him in situations where he might have been able to go for a break of serve. he usually stays very calm just thinking "whatever.. ill get you sooner or later pal"

BobFL
03-18-2012, 11:28 PM
hes always done very well against the serving giants. compared to roddick who usually hit like 30 aces in a regular best of 3 match compared to federers 10 or something, but when they played each other andy barely ever lead the ace count. acing federer with rocket serves is about 2-3 times harder than against most other players.

its not all just the return tho. federers obviously been very good at exploiting the big guys weaknesses further into the rallies. moving them around with his mix of angles and spins always put the screws to them. also mindset is a big thing here. he seems to shrug it off better than others if he gets a couple aces fired past him in situations where he might have been able to go for a break of serve. he usually stays very calm just thinking "whatever.. ill get you sooner or later pal"

Of course it is. No (at lest decent) return => no rallies.

BobFL
03-18-2012, 11:32 PM
I try to point this out whenever people say Roddick has a better serve than Federer (or whoever else is being discussed). Lack of variety and placement renders pace almost irrelevant. Roddick has proven this point over and over, year after year.

Federer is, without doubt, the best person in decades to figure out big servers - and definitely better at it than Hewitt.

Absolutely. In my mind, that goes without saying. Roddick is glorified by some underpowered people who think that mph is everything. Federer is in different universe both as a player and especially as a server compared to Roddick.

purge
03-18-2012, 11:49 PM
Of course it is. No (at lest decent) return => no rallies.

true but its not like fed is the only one who manages to get into a few rallies here and there against isner or karlovic or whoever. but he also makes the most of it

besides in such a match its not just about the giants service games, its also about your own service games. something that people tend to forget is that in this matchup youre serving with the extra pressure of knowing that surrendering your serve once most likely means giving the set away. and when rallies occur on your own serve its easy to panic or overpower, even more so since the match gives ou little to no rhythm on your groundstrokes.

beating a big server is just as much about being confident on your own serve as it is about getting and then seizing that golden opportunity to break through his

Wilander Fan
04-02-2012, 08:39 PM
true but its not like fed is the only one who manages to get into a few rallies here and there against isner or karlovic or whoever. but he also makes the most of it

besides in such a match its not just about the giants service games, its also about your own service games. something that people tend to forget is that in this matchup youre serving with the extra pressure of knowing that surrendering your serve once most likely means giving the set away. and when rallies occur on your own serve its easy to panic or overpower, even more so since the match gives ou little to no rhythm on your groundstrokes.

beating a big server is just as much about being confident on your own serve as it is about getting and then seizing that golden opportunity to break through his

Well said. Also, none of these big servers can demoralize you the way Fed can with his 50 second service games.

droliver
04-02-2012, 09:14 PM
Absolutely. In my mind, that goes without saying. Roddick is glorified by some underpowered people who think that mph is everything. Federer is in different universe both as a player and especially as a server compared to Roddick.

While Federer is clearly a better player, he's not a better server and never has been. Andy is either the best or 2nd best server (after Ivo) of the last 30 years on tour as measured by most metrics of the service game ATP stats (aces, % held, break points saved, etc...). The numbers don't lie.

The career ATP leaders for % service games held (source ATP Match Facts)
1. Karlovic 91%
2. Roddick 90%
3. Isner 90%
4. Sampras 89%
5. wayne Arthurs 88%

Evan77
04-02-2012, 09:38 PM
yeah, the fed church strikes again. Fed has the prettiest hair, he has the best purse collection, his body hair is simply amazing, he is the best returner (lol, NO) ... whatever people...

sonicare
04-02-2012, 10:09 PM
yeah, the fed church strikes again. Fed has the prettiest hair, he has the best purse collection, his body hair is simply amazing, he is the best returner (lol, NO) ... whatever people...

Yeah. People think he is Jesus or something. I mean, the guy is good but he's no federer.






http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt3/thehalfling86/ART-THOU-FURIOUS-MY-BROTHER.jpg

purge
04-02-2012, 11:05 PM
yeah, the fed church strikes again. Fed has the prettiest hair, he has the best purse collection, his body hair is simply amazing, he is the best returner (lol, NO) ... whatever people...
you couldve at least tried to read the full topic title -.-

Wangtang1
04-02-2012, 11:15 PM
Back in his prime the answer was an obvious yes but he's been overpowered in his final matches in each of the last three Wimbledons.

Leelord337
04-02-2012, 11:19 PM
he used to be.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxzFlrFfUrg

i would have to argue that nalbandian is a tad bit better returner of hard serves. i remember when he was playing karlovic and took it early about every time. Also throw agassi in the mix in that epic 5 setter vs joachim johansson in 05

djokovic2008
04-02-2012, 11:58 PM
When fed slice returns the way he does he is 45-55 % down in the rally until he turns the situation around but when agassi, nalbandian and djoker do it they actually are on the attack with their aggressive return styles which give them a 60-40 % advantage or sometimes they win the point outright from on return BIG DIFFERNCE.

monfed
04-03-2012, 12:51 AM
Federer imo.

Evan77
04-03-2012, 03:40 AM
Federer imo.
yeah Mirka, whatever ... watch some more tennis instead of over eating cookies, lol ... Djokovic and Murray have the best ROS, get it hun? I guess not.

monfed
04-03-2012, 03:44 AM
yeah Mirka, whatever ... watch some more tennis instead of over eating cookies, lol ... Djokovic and Murray have the best ROS, get it hun? I guess not.

yea Djokovic is the best returner,best server,best volleyer, best ,best best....yea LOL EVAN EL OH FREAKIN EL..rejoice...LOL

Bobby Jr
04-03-2012, 03:51 AM
While Federer is clearly a better player, he's not a better server and never has been. Andy is either the best or 2nd best server (after Ivo) of the last 30 years on tour as measured by most metrics of the service game ATP stats (aces, % held, break points saved, etc...). The numbers don't lie.

The career ATP leaders for % service games held....
Actually, they do, and it brings up a problem with using these sort of stats. Not all matches are equal.

Whereas Federer has had to play the overall in-form players hundreds of times late in tournaments Roddick has with few exceptions lost a couple of matches earlier than Federer - meaning he's avoided playing the number of successive harder/closer matches that Federer has had to. This massively boosts Roddick's numbers in this respect - as it also does for Karlovic, Isner etc. They can go through the first 3-4 rounds of a tournament with their eyes closed serving-wise but once they come up against someone who can handle it they bow out too often. Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Murray by contrast have to play the best returners almost every tournament they play (basically: each other) - sometimes a couple in succession. This massively dents their serving numbers on career-long lists.

Sampras on that list is about the only player who, week in-week out, was competitive a top 10 level. And it shows - he's #2 on the all time success list at slams.

I'd hazard a guess that if you looked at the percentage of unreturnable serves/aces against players at the quarter-finals stage or later in tournaments Federer is a more effective server than Roddick.

Evan77
04-03-2012, 03:56 AM
yea Djokovic is the best returner,best server,best volleyer, best ,best best....yea LOL EVAN EL OH FREAKIN EL..rejoice...LOL
oh, Mirka has some sense of humor... I like it :), now we are talking ... how was that cake? lol

monfed
04-03-2012, 04:09 AM
oh, Mirka has some sense of humor... I like it :), now we are talking ... how was that cake? lol

what does your wife think?

Evan77
04-03-2012, 04:31 AM
what does your wife think?
not sure, my wife is actually bisexual ... not sure how to deal with it, she wants an open relationship... not sure what to do. can you help? I need some good advice.

monfed
04-03-2012, 04:39 AM
not sure, my wife is actually bisexual ... not sure how to deal with it, she wants an open relationship... not sure what to do. can you help? I need some good advice.

Open relationship? More like getting dumped. Aww, sorry to hear that. :(

NamRanger
04-03-2012, 09:09 AM
Actually, they do, and it brings up a problem with using these sort of stats. Not all matches are equal.

Whereas Federer has had to play the overall in-form players hundreds of times late in tournaments Roddick has with few exceptions lost a couple of matches earlier than Federer - meaning he's avoided playing the number of successive harder/closer matches that Federer has had to. This massively boosts Roddick's numbers in this respect - as it also does for Karlovic, Isner etc. They can go through the first 3-4 rounds of a tournament with their eyes closed serving-wise but once they come up against someone who can handle it they bow out too often. Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Murray by contrast have to play the best returners almost every tournament they play (basically: each other) - sometimes a couple in succession. This massively dents their serving numbers on career-long lists.

Sampras on that list is about the only player who, week in-week out, was competitive a top 10 level. And it shows - he's #2 on the all time success list at slams.

I'd hazard a guess that if you looked at the percentage of unreturnable serves/aces against players at the quarter-finals stage or later in tournaments Federer is a more effective server than Roddick.



Federer barely maintains a better service win percentage despite the fact that he has infinitely more game to back up his already very good serve. Should tell you how good Roddick's serve is.


Also, in their best years when they were both making deep runs in slams and masters tournaments, Federer still never surpassed Roddick in overall service stats. If you seriously think Federer doesn't have a better serve than Roddick, then let me ask you this. How many matches against Nadal would Federer have won if he had Roddick's serve? A whole lot more.


Roddick was top 10 for almost an entire decade. Please, don't make me laugh.


And the last bolded part is fairly biased, since Roddick primarily faced Federer in the QFs or better of slams. When he faced opponents that weren't Federer, he was generally averaging close to 20 aces from what I remember.


Federer's ace stats recently vs current top 4 in slams

vs Nadal

Roland Garros 2005 : 5 Aces
Roland Garros 2006 : 6 Aces
Wimbledon 2006 : 13 Aces
Roland Garros 2007 : 9 Aces
Wimbledon 2007 : 24 Aces
Roland Garros 2008 : 2 Aces
Wimbledon 2008 : 25 Aces
Australian Open 2009 : 11 Aces
Roland Garros 2011 : 11 Aces
Australian Open 2012 : 12 Aces


vs Djokovic

Australian Open 2007 : 12 Aces
US Open 2007 : 11 Aces
Australian Open 2008 : 10 Aces
US Open 2008 : 20 Aces
US Open 2009 : 8 Aces
US Open 2010 : 12 Aces
Australian Open 2011 : 5 Aces
Roland Garros 2011 : 18 Aces
US Open 2011 : 11 Aces


vs Murray

2008 US Open : 3 Aces
2010 Australian Open : 11 Aces




Contrast it to Roddick


vs Nadal

2004 US Open : 10 Aces
2011 US Open : 9 Aces

vs Djokovic

2008 US Open : 14 aces
2008 Australian Open : 16 Aces

vs Murray

2006 Wimbledon : 21 Aces
2000 Wimbledon : 21 Aces

vs Federer

2003 Wimbledon : 4 Aces
2004 Wimbledon : 11 Aces
2005 Wimbledon : 7 Aces
2006 US Open : 7 Aces
2007 Australian Open : 4 Aces
2007 US Open : 14 Aces
2009 Australian Open : 8 Aces
2009 Wimbledon : 27 Aces


I'm not even counting Master Tournaments, which would make Roddick's serve look alot better. With a smaller sample, Roddick still has been able to consistently outserve Federer for the most part, particularly against Djokovic and Murray. Roddick really hasn't played Nadal enough in the slams, so it's hard to quantify whether or not he's a better server against Nadal. Also you have to remember Roddick is usually equaling or outdoing Federer in less sets. For instance, Federer in fact rarely hits more than 15 aces unless it is a long 4/5 setter. The only person Roddick struggles to hit aces against are Federer and Nadal, and really he just hasn't played enough sets against Nadal, and Federer is just a terrible match-up for Roddick. Against everyone else, Roddick outperforms Federer in less sets for the most part.


If we take Roddick against his own current generation, his numbers look even better


vs Hewitt

2001 Roland Garros : 0 Aces (lol)
2001 US Open : 21 Aces
2005 Australian Open : 31 Aces
2006 US Open : 17 Aces
2009 Wimbledon : 43 Aces
2012 AO : 12 Aces

vs Safin

2004 Australian Open : 18 Aces
2007 Australian Open : 14 Aces



This is against the cream of the crop for the most part too. If we're talking about just QFs and up, I guarantee that Roddick has Federer beat in the Aces department alone.

BobFL
04-03-2012, 02:39 PM
While Federer is clearly a better player, he's not a better server and never has been. Andy is either the best or 2nd best server (after Ivo) of the last 30 years on tour as measured by most metrics of the service game ATP stats (aces, % held, break points saved, etc...). The numbers don't lie.

The career ATP leaders for % service games held (source ATP Match Facts)
1. Karlovic 91%
2. Roddick 90%
3. Isner 90%
4. Sampras 89%
5. wayne Arthurs 88%

Numbers do lie if you don't understand them. Every statistics require 1) context 2) interpretation.

kiki
04-03-2012, 03:15 PM
Connors,Agassi,Rosewall,Borg,Laver were great returners, not Federer.

Bobby Jr
04-03-2012, 05:14 PM
Federer barely maintains a better service win percentage despite the fact that he has infinitely more game to back up his already very good serve. Should tell you how good Roddick's serve is.

...If you seriously think Federer doesn't have a better serve than Roddick, then let me ask you this. How many matches against Nadal would Federer have won if he had Roddick's serve? A whole lot more.
I didn't say aces, I said aces/unreturnable serves. That is a huge difference. It's hard to factor out the rest of a player's game I agree, which is why I said the above.

Even watching Roddick vs Isner it's clear that while Roddick serves plenty of aces his touchable serves are much more returnable by most players he faces. Much moreso than Federer's average touchable serves.

I totally see your point about 'if Federer had Roddick's serve when playing Nadal...' but would counter it with this: If Federer was playing a Roddick who had a Federer serve how would it affect the match? Roddick would be miles better off.

I think Nadal/Djok/Murray also consider Roddick's serve to be one of the more gettable ones regardless of the aces which might come flying by - the ones which aren't aces are quite returner friendly in their books. I highly doubt Federer would have done better against Nadal if he had Roddick's serve. More aces don't necessarily mean more pressure on returners. You also need to factor in how well you serve when it's tight or on break points etc. Roddick isn't nearly as clutch as Federer in tight situations against top players.

As you say though, it's hard to back it up with stats because a player like Federer who can back up his serve better than Roddick will force people to be more pro-active on return, or do more research etc.

TTMR
04-03-2012, 05:45 PM
Federer also has the best backhand on tour.

Xizel
04-03-2012, 07:14 PM
The title is realistic, Fed having a better serve than Roddick MUST be a troll attempt.

purge
04-03-2012, 10:30 PM
aces/unreturnable serves is not the sole measurement of a quality of a serve anyway. someone mentioned fed only hit 3 aces vs murray in the USO 08 final. yet his serve was working great and setting up lots of free points/easy winners.
also karlovics old record of most aces in a match (before that ridiculous isner-mahut match) was about 60 or something i think.. and he went on to lose the match

anyway this is about the return of fast serves. so when fed plays roddick and usually outaces him there its the return that makes the difference there rather than the serve.

fed_rulz
04-03-2012, 10:42 PM
aces/unreturnable serves is not the sole measurement of a quality of a serve anyway. someone mentioned fed only hit 3 aces vs murray in the USO 08 final. yet his serve was working great and setting up lots of free points/easy winners.
also karlovics old record of most aces in a match (before that ridiculous isner-mahut match) was about 60 or something i think.. and he went on to lose the match

anyway this is about the return of fast serves. so when fed plays roddick and usually outaces him there its the return that makes the difference there rather than the serve.

78 actually, in a DC match against Stepanek on clay that lasted over 6 hrs.

droliver
04-04-2012, 09:26 PM
Numbers do lie if you don't understand them. Every statistics require 1) context 2) interpretation.

Exactly, the context is the ATP tour, and the interpretation is comparing objective #'s in ATP tour matches. THEY'RE IN THE EXACT SAME POOL of tournaments and players to compare.

The ultimate measure of the serve is measured by just a few metrics which are pretty self explanatory (Aces, service winners, % hold). The same people show up at the top of each of these lists and highly correlate to most people's subjective evaluation of the biggest servers. Roddick has a measurable career advantage by every conceivable metric of the serve over a large sample of matches versus Federer.

Sid_Vicious
04-05-2012, 02:57 AM
Djokovic is much better than Federer at both returning big serves and doing something impressive with returns rather than just slicing CC.

Sid_Vicious
04-05-2012, 03:07 AM
Federer also has the best backhand on tour.

Lol.

Don't forget that he also has the best net game, best overhead, and best ever one hander. Yeah, that's right. Federer's one hander is greater than Guga and Edberg's.

Oh, and he is the creator of the universe


:lol:

purge
04-05-2012, 07:40 AM
Lol.

Don't forget that he also has the best net game, best overhead, and best ever one hander. Yeah, that's right. Federer's one hander is greater than Guga and Edberg's.

Oh, and he is the creator of the universe


:lol:
thats bullcrap

he didnt create the universe ;P

fed_rulz
04-05-2012, 08:55 AM
Lol.

Don't forget that he also has the best net game, best overhead, and best ever one hander. Yeah, that's right. Federer's one hander is greater than Guga and Edberg's.

Oh, and he is the creator of the universe


:lol:

that stmt is completely untrue; NOT definitely greater than Edberg's, and debatable vs Guga's.

otherwise, you're post is 100% correct :)

kiki
04-05-2012, 09:29 AM
Federland, Nadalmouse and Djokorella...oh¿ and don´t forget Uncle Toni, the Donald Duck Uncle...

fed_rulz
04-05-2012, 09:33 AM
Federland, Nadalmouse and Djokorella...oh¿ and don´t forget Uncle Toni, the Donald Duck Uncle...

you forgot laverpuss, Rosesmall, and Gonzaless....

kiki
04-05-2012, 09:36 AM
you forgot laverpuss, Rosesmall, and Gonzaless....

oh¡ How good look those 2 poles sisters, Wozniacky and the two black sisters in Mirja in Federwonderland¡¡¡¡

World Beater
04-06-2012, 02:21 AM
I would say this is true..federer is not the best returner overall..but against a monster first serve, i would pick roger over just about anybody on tour - past or present.

phnx90
04-06-2012, 02:33 AM
Djokovic is much better than Federer at both returning big serves and doing something impressive with returns rather than just slicing CC.
We haven't been watching the same Djokovic, because I found him average and at times pretty bad at returning big serves, at best slicing or blocking them back, living up to reputation when it comes to second serves almost exclusively.

helloworld
04-06-2012, 05:14 AM
I'm not impressed with the way Fed return Sampras's serve.I'd say Agassi is much better in this department, especially when returning aggressively.

helloworld
04-06-2012, 06:21 AM
We haven't been watching the same Djokovic, because I found him average and at times pretty bad at returning big serves, at best slicing or blocking them back, living up to reputation when it comes to second serves almost exclusively.

Djokovic is good at returning slow serve(Nadal), but pretty bad against huge serve.

celoft
04-06-2012, 06:30 AM
He is very difficult to ace.

coloskier
04-06-2012, 10:00 AM
As much as I like Fed, Murray has the best return in the game.

Sid_Vicious
04-06-2012, 02:32 PM
We haven't been watching the same Djokovic, because I found him average and at times pretty bad at returning big serves, at best slicing or blocking them back, living up to reputation when it comes to second serves almost exclusively.

I disagree. Just because Djokovic lost to Isner and Federer beat Isner does not mean that Federer is an Agassi-like returner. Djokovic might not have a godly first serve return, but neither does Federer. When Federer is up against a guy who is serving bombs, he gets a solid beatdown (Tsonga Wimbledon 2011). Federer could barely get a serve back in play for the last half of that match. Djokovic was being kept at bay by Tsonga's big serving as well in their SF match, but as the statistics show, he did more with Tsonga's 1st serve than Federer did. Second serve was no contest at all, Djokovic is in another league.

abmk
04-06-2012, 11:26 PM
I disagree. Just because Djokovic lost to Isner and Federer beat Isner does not mean that Federer is an Agassi-like returner. Djokovic might not have a godly first serve return, but neither does Federer. When Federer is up against a guy who is serving bombs, he gets a solid beatdown (Tsonga Wimbledon 2011). Federer could barely get a serve back in play for the last half of that match. Djokovic was being kept at bay by Tsonga's big serving as well in their SF match, but as the statistics show, he did more with Tsonga's 1st serve than Federer did. Second serve was no contest at all, Djokovic is in another league.

Are you serious about this ? Comparing a well past his prime federer ( whose return is the part that has declined the most ) to peak Djoker ?

Tsonga was serving better by some distance vs federer than vs djoker. ( Obv Djoker at his peak was returning way better than a well past his prime federer )

Federer at his peak was a *way* better returner of big serves compared to Djoker . He handled them easily ..... There was no big server who troubled him at his peak from 2004-2007

You got one thing right, federer isn't/wasn't an Agassi like returner. At his peak, he was even better than Agassi at returning first serves ( Agassi obviously was better at returning 2nd serves ) . It was extremely hard to get free points off the serve vs federer ...

phnx90
04-06-2012, 11:49 PM
I disagree. Just because Djokovic lost to Isner and Federer beat Isner does not mean that Federer is an Agassi-like returner. Djokovic might not have a godly first serve return, but neither does Federer. When Federer is up against a guy who is serving bombs, he gets a solid beatdown (Tsonga Wimbledon 2011). Federer could barely get a serve back in play for the last half of that match. Djokovic was being kept at bay by Tsonga's big serving as well in their SF match, but as the statistics show, he did more with Tsonga's 1st serve than Federer did. Second serve was no contest at all, Djokovic is in another league.
I didn't reach that conclusion based purely on the Isner-Djokovic/Isner-Fed match, but from the matches Fed/Djoker have played over the years. I think extrapolating the next 10 years from a single match is the speciality of some of the other members on TTW, but I'm not one of them.

Rarely have I seen Djokovic (until recently) do anything with 1st serves, besides block them back into play. Djokovic punishes second serves very well (i.e. Nadal). I can't say whether he's better than Hewitt or Agassi simply because I haven't watched enough Hewitt/Agassi matches to make up my mind, but, having watched Fed play in his dominant years, and against players like Karlovic and Roddick, I can safely say that Djokovic doesn't come close in that department. I remember Federer hitting a full on groundstroke off Roddick's ~150 mph 1st serve bombs, Jesus...

Sid_Vicious
04-07-2012, 02:07 AM
I didn't reach that conclusion based purely on the Isner-Djokovic/Isner-Fed match, but from the matches Fed/Djoker have played over the years. I think extrapolating the next 10 years from a single match is the speciality of some of the other members on TTW, but I'm not one of them.

Rarely have I seen Djokovic (until recently) do anything with 1st serves, besides block them back into play. Djokovic punishes second serves very well (i.e. Nadal). I can't say whether he's better than Hewitt or Agassi simply because I haven't watched enough Hewitt/Agassi matches to make up my mind, but, having watched Fed play in his dominant years, and against players like Karlovic and Roddick, I can safely say that Djokovic doesn't come close in that department. I remember Federer hitting a full on groundstroke off Roddick's ~150 mph 1st serve bombs, Jesus...

Likewise, I can safely say that federer does not come close to djokovic in that department . Roddick's serve is hardly an enigma to read. Djokovic was getting some mammoth returns in play off of Roddick's huge first serves in their 2008 USO QF match.

Sid_Vicious
04-07-2012, 02:16 AM
Are you serious about this ? Comparing a well past his prime federer ( whose return is the part that has declined the most ) to peak Djoker ?

Tsonga was serving better by some distance vs federer than vs djoker. ( Obv Djoker at his peak was returning way better than a well past his prime federer )

Federer at his peak was a *way* better returner of big serves compared to Djoker . He handled them easily ..... There was no big server who troubled him at his peak from 2004-2007

You got one thing right, federer isn't/wasn't an Agassi like returner. At his peak, he was even better than Agassi at returning first serves ( Agassi obviously was better at returning 2nd serves ) . It was extremely hard to get free points off the serve vs federer ...


We can agree to disagree. Djokovic is a *way* better returner than Federer.

There is no way Federer is better than Agassi at returning first or second serves. Agassi proved himself against some of the best servers of all time.additionally, he did it in an era where fast courts actually existed.

abmk
04-07-2012, 02:24 AM
We can agree to disagree. Djokovic is a *way* better returner than Federer.

totally disagree. Djokovic is overall better returner in this era as he is better against the weak serves/slower surfaces , but against the bigger serves/faster courts, federer any day and it isn't close IMO ....

There is no way Federer is better than Agassi at returning first or second serves. Agassi proved himself against some of the best servers of all time.additionally, he did it in an era where fast courts actually existed.

oh yes, federer at his peak was better than agassi at returning first serves. It isn't just roddick, check his records/returning vs the likes of soderling, karlovic , ljubicic , safin etc as well. He returned phillippousis' serve with ease as well in wimbledon 2003. He returned Sampras' serve darn well in Wimbledon 2001.

abmk
04-07-2012, 02:26 AM
Likewise, I can safely say that federer does not come close to djokovic in that department . Roddick's serve is hardly an enigma to read. Djokovic was getting some mammoth returns in play off of Roddick's huge first serves in their 2008 USO QF match.

and yet trails roddick in H2H .... roddick has more wins vs him in less than 10 matches than he has vs federer in ~25 matches .... Anyone who thinks peak Djoker is better than peak federer at returning vs big servers/fast surfaces clearly hasn't seen peak Federer or has clearly forgotten how well he used to suffocate big servers ........

hell djoker couldn't even handle Haas SnVing in wimby 2009 QF and lost to him in 4. Federer beat the very same Haas in straights the next match ....

batz
04-07-2012, 02:36 AM
Well, the 'best returner of fast serves' has never led the field for 1st serve return points won over a season - even when he was in his ultra dominant peak.

Of current players, Davydenko has done this twice and Nadal has done it once. Murray has also done it twice.

If we leave our opinions and subjectivity to one side for a minute - would it not be reasonable to expect any candidate for the title of the 'greatest ever fast serve returner' to have topped that list at least once?

abmk
04-07-2012, 02:51 AM
Well, the 'best returner of fast serves' has never led the field for 1st serve return points won over a season - even when he was in his ultra dominant peak.

Of current players, Davydenko has done this twice and Nadal has done it once. Murray has also done it twice.

If we leave our opinions and subjectivity to one side for a minute - would it not be reasonable to expect any candidate for the title of the 'greatest ever fast serve returner' to have topped that list at least once?

really batz ? Didn't expect this from someone like you. Stats should never be taken at face value ....

He had the same % ( once rounded ) as the one who topped the list in 2004 ( chela :roll: ) and in 2006 ( davydenko ) ....

In 2007, just one % lower than the highest ...

In 2005, 2% lower than the highest ,nadal ( whose was clearly padded by clay that year - he played around 50 clay matches ) , likes of coria, gaudio etc also above him - stats clearly padded by clay ...

Given federer consistently went deeper than anyone else in those years , he faced the top players more often and hence his first serve% return points was bound to suffer in comparison

batz
04-07-2012, 03:13 AM
really batz ? Didn't expect this from someone like you. Stats should never be taken at face value ....

He had the same % ( once rounded ) as the one who topped the list in 2004 ( chela :roll: ) and in 2006 ( davydenko ) ....

In 2007, just one % lower than the highest ...

In 2005, 2% lower than the highest ,nadal ( whose was clearly padded by clay that year - he played around 50 clay matches ) , likes of coria, gaudio etc also above him - stats clearly padded by clay ...

Given federer consistently went deeper than anyone else in those years , he faced the top players more often and hence his first serve% return points was bound to suffer in comparison

So - in every year Roger has played (including in the years in which he was among the most dominant players the world has ever seen), someone else has had better 1st serve return point % than him - but he's the best fast returner ever.

You don't see the incongruence in that statement?

Look I'm not saying it's the only metric that could be considered; I'm sure we could design an assessment basis that would be much more robust and took other factors into consideration - although I still doubt that Roger would turn out to be the best fast returner ever; but this is just my opinion. But the fact is that % 1st serve return points won is the only ATP supplied metric that relates to the question of who is the best fast returner; it's all we have to go on other than opinion.

I think it's very difficult to argue against the notion that Roger is currently the GOAT; but I don't think it follows that he therefore has the best return, the best volleys, the best serve, the best hair, and the loveliest eyes of all time - some Fed fans seem to think this way and argue as such even when the facts don't support their position.

abmk
04-07-2012, 03:48 AM
So - in every year Roger has played (including in the years in which he was among the most dominant players the world has ever seen), someone else has had better 1st serve return point % than him - but he's the best fast returner ever.

You don't see the incongruence in that statement?

really now ?

So a difference of a few points here and there would make him eligible to be called best fast serve returner ever ? ( given he was tied % wise for 2 years )


http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=6&s=0&y=2004

chela won 977 of 2777 1st serve return points in 2004 - 35.181%
federer won 1244 of 3579 1st serve return points in 2004- 34.75%

so if federer had won 15 more first serve return points in a total of 80 matches , (that brings his % to 35.2 ) , he'd be in consideration ? Really ?????

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=6&s=0&y=2006

davydenko won 1510 of 4286 1st serve return points in 2006 - 35.23%
federer won 1719 of 4939 1st serve return points in 2006 - 34.8

so if federer had won 22 more first serve return points points in a total of 97 matches , ( that brings his % to 35.25 ) , he'd be in consideration ? Really ?

Look I'm not saying it's the only metric that could be considered; I'm sure we could design an assessment basis that would be much more robust and took other factors into consideration - although I still doubt that Roger would turn out to be the best fast returner ever; but this is just my opinion. But the fact is that % 1st serve return points won is the only ATP supplied metric that relates to the question of who is the best fast returner; it's all we have to go on other than opinion.

no, you have a lot more, but that is if you are willing to look into. Pick the best servers of the generation and check the records of those considered to be good returners vs them. Check the surface wise distribution. Check the % of top players/big servers they've played ...

Even after all that, it is debatable as to how much the return was a factor and how much the ground game after the return was .....

Just checking the 1st serve return % points won is a lazy, lazy way of looking at it.

I think it's very difficult to argue against the notion that Roger is currently the GOAT; but I don't think it follows that he therefore has the best return, the best volleys, the best serve, the best hair, and the loveliest eyes of all time - some Fed fans seem to think this way and argue as such even when the facts don't support their position.

agree. But that isn't what I am saying. I'm not saying he's the best returner at all . Just that he returns the best against big servers ...I really struggle to recall matches that he lost vs big serving at his peak . He always won a fair % of first serve return points against big servers

He has also has a legit claim to the best forehand, movement ( including anticipation, footwork ) . That's about it IMO ...

TTMR
04-07-2012, 08:35 AM
really now ?

So a difference of a few points here and there would make him eligible to be called best fast serve returner ever ? ( given he was tied % wise for 2 years )


http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=6&s=0&y=2004

chela won 977 of 2777 1st serve return points in 2004 - 35.181%
federer won 1244 of 3579 1st serve return points in 2004- 34.75%

so if federer had won 15 more first serve return points in a total of 80 matches , (that brings his % to 35.2 ) , he'd be in consideration ? Really ?????

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=6&s=0&y=2006

davydenko won 1510 of 4286 1st serve return points in 2006 - 35.23%
federer won 1719 of 4939 1st serve return points in 2006 - 34.8

so if federer had won 22 more first serve return points points in a total of 97 matches , ( that brings his % to 35.25 ) , he'd be in consideration ? Really ?



no, you have a lot more, but that is if you are willing to look into. Pick the best servers of the generation and check the records of those considered to be good returners vs them. Check the surface wise distribution. Check the % of top players/big servers they've played ...

Even after all that, it is debatable as to how much the return was a factor and how much the ground game after the return was .....

Just checking the 1st serve return % points won is a lazy, lazy way of looking at it.



agree. But that isn't what I am saying. I'm not saying he's the best returner at all . Just that he returns the best against big servers ...I really struggle to recall matches that he lost vs big serving at his peak . He always won a fair % of first serve return points against big servers

He has also has a legit claim to the best forehand, movement ( including anticipation, footwork ) . That's about it IMO ...

If he is such a great returner against big first serves, wouldn't it stand to reason he would be even better at returning average first serves and second serves? He should be even better in those categories, yet he is nowhere near the all-time return greats in any significant return stat.

Oh sorry, that's reasoning and not fanboyism. Roger master sexi class love.

DjokovicForTheWin
04-07-2012, 08:44 AM
If he is such a great returner against big first serves, wouldn't it stand to reason he would be even better at returning average first serves and second serves? He should be even better in those categories, yet he is nowhere near the all-time return greats in any significant return stat.

Oh sorry, that's reasoning and not fanboyism. Roger master sexi class love.

Ummm, not really. 1st serves are more about instinct. 2nd serves more about thinking. When Roger thinks too much, things don't go as well.

abmk
04-07-2012, 09:23 AM
If he is such a great returner against big first serves, wouldn't it stand to reason he would be even better at returning average first serves and second serves? He should be even better in those categories, yet he is nowhere near the all-time return greats in any significant return stat.

Oh sorry, that's reasoning and not fanboyism. Roger master sexi class love.

That's such a hopeless case of reasoning fail.

yes, federer overall is better at returning average first serves and second serves than he is returning big first serves - well that is to be expected.

But that difference is more for the other returners , i.e. they are by some distance better vs the average servers than federer, but inferior vs the bigger servers .....

While they are inferior vs the big servers, they make it up and go ahead by being better vs the average servers ....

Taking the return stats at face value and parading it as a proof ? Really ???

Have a look at this :

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=6&s=0&y=0

chela, kucera, dosedel, volandri , carbonell, berasteugui ???? really ???? its obvious these stats are misleading . They are because of a combination of factors including being stats bloated by clay, playing much inferior players and rarely playing top players .....

TTMR
04-07-2012, 10:19 AM
That's such a hopeless case of reasoning fail.

yes, federer overall is better at returning average first serves and second serves than he is returning big first serves - well that is to be expected.

But that difference is more for the other returners , i.e. they are by some distance better vs the average servers than federer, but inferior vs the bigger servers .....

While they are inferior vs the big servers, they make it up and go ahead by being better vs the average servers ....

Taking the return stats at face value and parading it as a proof ? Really ???

Have a look at this :

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=6&s=0&y=0

chela, kucera, dosedel, volandri , carbonell, berasteugui ???? really ???? its obvious these stats are misleading . They are because of a combination of factors including being stats bloated by clay, playing much inferior players and rarely playing top players .....

Even if you strike out the 'clay court specialists', which is somewhat unfair, you still have current players Murray, Ferrer and Davydenko all above Federer. Federer even called Ferrer the best returner of his generation. And you cannot tell me that those three 'rarely play top players'.

Let's be honest here. You love Federer and want him to be the best at everything. We don't have total and complete enough stats to prove definitively that your guy is the best (as I said, tennis stats are unfortunately very limited, but we have to work with what we have), so we will just speculate and change the parameters to come to our pre-determined conclusion regardless.

sunny_cali
04-07-2012, 10:53 AM
Even if you strike out the 'clay court specialists', which is somewhat unfair, you still have current players Murray, Ferrer and Davydenko all above Federer. Federer even called Ferrer the best returner of his generation. And you cannot tell me that those three 'rarely play top players'.

Let's be honest here. You love Federer and want him to be the best at everything. We don't have total and complete enough stats to prove definitively that your guy is the best (as I said, tennis stats are unfortunately very limited, but we have to work with what we have), so we will just speculate and change the parameters to come to our pre-determined conclusion regardless.

Did anyone say they weren't better returners than Fed ? Here the argument is restricted to who returns best against big servers. I think Fed has got a case here.

abmk
04-07-2012, 09:04 PM
Even if you strike out the 'clay court specialists', which is somewhat unfair, you still have current players Murray, Ferrer and Davydenko all above Federer. Federer even called Ferrer the best returner of his generation. And you cannot tell me that those three 'rarely play top players'.

yes, overall they may be better returners. But I think they are better than federer vs the average servers and that federer is better vs the big servers ..... Is it really that tough to comprehend or accept ?

Servers used to struggle to get free points of their serves vs federer because he'd get back so many of them ...

I mean, get me 2-3 big servers who defeated federer at his peak because he was struggling with returning their serve ?

Let's be honest here. You love Federer and want him to be the best at everything.

I don't deny I am a federer fan and may be a bit biased. But I never would think or say he is the best at everything ...Read again what I wrote:



agree. But that isn't what I am saying. I'm not saying he's the best returner at all . Just that he returns the best against big servers ...I really struggle to recall matches that he lost vs big serving at his peak . He always won a fair % of first serve return points against big servers

He has also has a legit claim to the best forehand, movement ( including anticipation, footwork ) . That's about it IMO ...

Evan77
04-07-2012, 09:49 PM
and yet trails roddick in H2H .... roddick has more wins vs him in less than 10 matches than he has vs federer in ~25 matches .... Anyone who thinks peak Djoker is better than peak federer at returning vs big servers/fast surfaces clearly hasn't seen peak Federer or has clearly forgotten how well he used to suffocate big servers ........

hell djoker couldn't even handle Haas SnVing in wimby 2009 QF and lost to him in 4. Federer beat the very same Haas in straights the next match ....
nonsense, complete utter crap... we are talking about Djokovic 1.0 vs. Djokovic 2.0. Roddick can't reach Djokovic, because Roddick sucks and Djokovic is always in semis and finals. that h2h is so irrelevant (doesn't Hrbaty have a positive h2h with Roger? and yeah it means nothing). Djokovic would simply eat Roddick alive if they meet nowadays... please give me a break.

I've been watching tennis for over 30 years and only Fed fanatics can claim that is he a better returner than Djokovic. Complete nonsense. As much as I appreciate Agassi and Roger, Djokovic is simply from another planet when it comes to ROS. Only people who started watching tennis a few years ago, and blind Fed fanatics can not see it.

Murray is a better returner than Fed too.

abmk
04-07-2012, 10:19 PM
nonsense, complete utter crap... we are talking about Djokovic 1.0 vs. Djokovic 2.0. Roddick can't reach Djokovic, because Roddick sucks and Djokovic is always in semis and finals. that h2h is so irrelevant (doesn't Hrbaty have a positive h2h with Roger? and yeah it means nothing). Djokovic would simply eat Roddick alive if they meet nowadays... please give me a break.

I've been watching tennis for over 30 years and only Fed fanatics can claim that is he a better returner than Djokovic. Complete nonsense. As much as I appreciate Agassi and Roger, Djokovic is simply from another planet when it comes to ROS. Only people who started watching tennis a few years ago, and blind Fed fanatics can not see it.

Murray is a better returner than Fed too.

jeez, what a load of nonsense ..

Learn to read fully, will you .....

I only said Federer is better at returning vs big servers/faster surfaces than djoker.... Overall djoker is the better returner

I would definitely not say the part in bold

The hrbaty H2H comparison is non-sense as the sample size is too small in that case....In roddick-djoker case it is significantly large enough .... 5-3 to roddick IIRC ....

Roddick beat djoker immediately after he had won the AO in 2008, in dubai. Don't make me laugh by saying djoker wasn't playing well then .....

Of course roddick is way down in the rankings now and djoker would beat him handily more often that not. But he wouldn't have it that easy vs a roddick playing well ......

Which players did Nole face/do that well when they were serving that well since 2011 ? tsonga in wimbledon 2011 .....ok, that was impressive ....

But he did struggle vs federer serving extremely well at the FO ( fed had 20 aces ) and lost to isner recently at IW ....Of course he hasn't faced Karlovic/Raonic/Roddick when they were serving well since 2011 .....

Nole's the best returner wrt slower surfaces/average servers , but I'll take prime Federer/Agassi/Hewitt/Murray wrt fast surfaces/big servers .....

Evan77
04-08-2012, 12:36 AM
jeez, what a load of nonsense ..

Learn to read fully, will you .....

I only said Federer is better at returning vs big servers/faster surfaces than djoker.... Overall djoker is the better returner

I would definitely not say the part in bold

The hrbaty H2H comparison is non-sense as the sample size is too small in that case....In roddick-djoker case it is significantly large enough .... 5-3 to roddick IIRC ....

Roddick beat djoker immediately after he had won the AO in 2008, in dubai. Don't make me laugh by saying djoker wasn't playing well then .....

Of course roddick is way down in the rankings now and djoker would beat him handily more often that not. But he wouldn't have it that easy vs a roddick playing well ......

Which players did Nole face/do that well when they were serving that well since 2011 ? tsonga in wimbledon 2011 .....ok, that was impressive ....

But he did struggle vs federer serving extremely well at the FO ( fed had 20 aces ) and lost to isner recently at IW ....Of course he hasn't faced Karlovic/Raonic/Roddick when they were serving well since 2011 .....

Nole's the best returner wrt slower surfaces/average servers , but I'll take prime Federer/Agassi/Hewitt/Murray wrt fast surfaces/big servers .....

I can read, thank you. I don't think that Rog is a better returner vs. 'fast servers' than Nole. Djokovic is better and sure we can agree to disagree.

Djokovic losing to Isner at IW means nothing... Roger lost to Karlovic a few years ago in Cincy (2008 I think), so what ...these 'big servers' can have a good day and that's it ...

Neither Djokovic nor Federer are Gods.

when you say 'if Roddick is playing well etc.', I can only laugh. Roddick shouldn't be even mentioned in the same sentence with Djokovic. Novak lost to Murray too at Dubai (the tournament he won already 3 times). big deal, Murray got spanked at Miami.

I also disagree with you saying that Djok is the best returner on 'slower surfaces' (complete nonsense) ... he is the best returner on any surface, like it or not.

abmk
04-08-2012, 12:48 AM
I can read, thank you. I don't think that Rog is a better returner vs. 'fast servers'. Djokovic is better and sure we can agree to disagree.

yet, nothing to substantiate why you think djokovic is better vs fast servers. Just that you "think" so ....

When I mentioned his record vs roddick, you said that was because it was djoker 1.0 .... Yet you didn't say anything when I mentioned that djoker from 2011 hasn't faced that many players serving well and on some ( not all ) of the occasions that he did, he did struggle ...

you had no reply to the dubai 2008 match vs roddick comment either ...

Let us know the occasions that federer struggled with big serving at his peak as well !

Djokovic losing to Isner at IW means nothing... Roger lost to Karlovic a few years ago in Cincy (2008 I think), so what ...

yes, in 2008, when he was in a mini-slump after that loss in wimby ..... So ? he still leads karlvoic 10-1 or 11-1 or something like that ...

I didn't mention that isner match in isolation, did I ? Read the full context again ...

Evan77
04-08-2012, 01:25 AM
yet, nothing to substantiate why you think djokovic is better vs fast servers. Just that you "think" so ....

When I mentioned his record vs roddick, you said that was because it was djoker 1.0 .... Yet you didn't say anything when I mentioned that djoker from 2011 hasn't faced that many players serving well and on some ( not all ) of the occasions that he did, he did struggle ...

you had no reply to the dubai 2008 match vs roddick comment either ...

Let us know the occasions that federer struggled with big serving at his peak as well !



yes, in 2008, when he was in a mini-slump after that loss in wimby ..... So ? he still leads karlvoic 10-1 or 11-1 or something like that ...

I didn't mention that isner match in isolation, did I ? Read the full context again ...

oh, mini slump now... whatever (sorry, but I can also claim that Djokovic was in a 'mini slamp' after his win at the AO, it means nothing). so, I can use the same argument with Djokovic too. I think there is no point of arguing with you. I actually think you are a smart guy and you do understand tennis. I do respect your opinion.

Dubai 2008, Roddick simply played better than Djoker. Nothing really to say about that match (I hate to say this but it's freaking Dubai, top guys show up for money, it's so irrelevant if you look at a big picture). I mean, look, Roddick managed to def. Roger at Miami... does that make him a better player than Rog. Hell NO. Nole lost to Isner at IW, does that make Isner a better player than Novak, hell NO.

and no you didn't mention that Isner match in isolation ... I think you misread my post.

abmk
04-08-2012, 02:01 AM
oh, mini slump now... whatever (sorry, but I can also claim that Djokovic was in a 'mini slamp' after his win at the AO, it means nothing). so, I can use the same argument with Djokovic too. I think there is no point of arguing with you.

not quite the same, federer lost in the early rounds of 3 events after the loss in wimby - canada, cincy, olympics ....Nole went on to win IW after the loss in dubai ....

I actually think you are a smart guy and you do understand tennis. I do respect your opinion.

well you ridiculed my post. So I responded. Federer is quite a bit better than djoker wrt big servers/fast surfaces and I see no evidence to the contrary. You haven't provided any point with respect to that either ...

So would appreciate if you would stop questioning/ridiculing those who believe federer is better than djoker vs big servers/fast surfaces ...

Dubai 2008, Roddick simply played better than Djoker. Nothing really to say about that match (I hate to say this but it's freaking Dubai, top guys show up for money, it's so irrelevant if you look at a big picture). I mean, look, Roddick managed to def. Roger at Miami... does that make him a better player than Rog. Hell NO. Nole lost to Isner at IW, does that make Isner a better player than Novak, hell NO.

and no you didn't mention that Isner match in isolation ... I think you misread my post.

never said it makes them better players. I don't think dubai is that irrelavant at all. Btw djoker won dubai for the next 3 years ....

Evan77
04-08-2012, 02:34 AM
not quite the same, federer lost in the early rounds of 3 events after the loss in wimby - canada, cincy, olympics ....Nole went on to win IW after the loss in dubai ....



well you ridiculed my post. So I responded. Federer is quite a bit better than djoker wrt big servers/fast surfaces and I see no evidence to the contrary. You haven't provided any point with respect to that either ...

So would appreciate if you would stop questioning/ridiculing those who believe federer is better than djoker vs big servers/fast surfaces ...



never said it makes them better players. I don't think dubai is that irrelavant at all. Btw djoker won dubai for the next 3 years ....
I did not ridicule your post, that's just your impression ... just because I disagree with you it doesn't mean that you are right, or I'm right or whatever... and no I'm not going to stop 'questioning/ridiculing' ... just because you believe in something, it does NOT mean I have to believe in too ... Djokovic does have the best ROS .... that's it. Fed doesn't even come close...

and what you would appreciate is ... I don't really give a ***** .... you can believe in your fantasies, fine with me... I actually don't really care ...

okdude1992
04-08-2012, 02:55 AM
While Federer is clearly a better player, he's not a better server and never has been. Andy is either the best or 2nd best server (after Ivo) of the last 30 years on tour as measured by most metrics of the service game ATP stats (aces, % held, break points saved, etc...). The numbers don't lie.

The career ATP leaders for % service games held (source ATP Match Facts)
1. Karlovic 91%
2. Roddick 90%
3. Isner 90%
4. Sampras 89%
5. wayne Arthurs 88%

ahh, i remember wayne arthurs. saw him play live twice. ridiculous serve, but no real game to back it up. add in goran with these 5, and you have the best serves of the last 20 some odd years

okdude1992
04-08-2012, 02:59 AM
to OP, federer does read and block big serves exceptionally well. once he starts timing it, he can hit clean return winners also. this mach comes to mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1phwk8XjZaY

kiki
04-08-2012, 03:00 AM
I did not ridicule your post, that's just your impression ... just because I disagree with you it doesn't mean that you are right, or I'm right or whatever... and no I'm not going to stop 'questioning/ridiculing' ... just because you believe in something, it does NOT mean I have to believe in too ... Djokovic does have the best ROS .... that's it. Fed doesn't even come close...

and what you would appreciate is ... I don't really give a ***** .... you can believe in your fantasies, fine with me... I actually don't really care ...

You just hurt abmk´s feelings.Just a simple word that doesn´t please his Deity, and he will jump right on your face...

abmk
04-08-2012, 04:43 AM
I did not ridicule your post, that's just your impression ...

oh really so saying "nonsense, complete utter crap." is not ridiculing my post ?? Really ??????

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=6452446&postcount=75

Djokovic does have the best ROS .... that's it. Fed doesn't even come close...



who has the best RoS overall is not the topic of thread, stick to the topic of the thread ...

and what you would appreciate is ... I don't really give a ***** .... you can believe in your fantasies, fine with me... I actually don't really care ...

yeah, right, and you can live in your la la land where djoker is better than the likes of agassi ,federer, hewitt, murray, connors etc wrt to the bigger servers/faster surfaces .....I don't care .....

But if you are going to start ridiculing posts which say otherwise , without anything to back it up, I'm going to counter it ...Its up to you ....

TheRed
04-08-2012, 09:50 AM
Federer barely maintains a better service win percentage despite the fact that he has infinitely more game to back up his already very good serve. Should tell you how good Roddick's serve is.


Also, in their best years when they were both making deep runs in slams and masters tournaments, Federer still never surpassed Roddick in overall service stats. If you seriously think Federer doesn't have a better serve than Roddick, then let me ask you this. How many matches against Nadal would Federer have won if he had Roddick's serve? A whole lot more.


Roddick was top 10 for almost an entire decade. Please, don't make me laugh.


And the last bolded part is fairly biased, since Roddick primarily faced Federer in the QFs or better of slams. When he faced opponents that weren't Federer, he was generally averaging close to 20 aces from what I remember.


Federer's ace stats recently vs current top 4 in slams

vs Nadal

Roland Garros 2005 : 5 Aces
Roland Garros 2006 : 6 Aces
Wimbledon 2006 : 13 Aces
Roland Garros 2007 : 9 Aces
Wimbledon 2007 : 24 Aces
Roland Garros 2008 : 2 Aces
Wimbledon 2008 : 25 Aces
Australian Open 2009 : 11 Aces
Roland Garros 2011 : 11 Aces
Australian Open 2012 : 12 Aces


vs Djokovic

Australian Open 2007 : 12 Aces
US Open 2007 : 11 Aces
Australian Open 2008 : 10 Aces
US Open 2008 : 20 Aces
US Open 2009 : 8 Aces
US Open 2010 : 12 Aces
Australian Open 2011 : 5 Aces
Roland Garros 2011 : 18 Aces
US Open 2011 : 11 Aces


vs Murray

2008 US Open : 3 Aces
2010 Australian Open : 11 Aces




Contrast it to Roddick


vs Nadal

2004 US Open : 10 Aces
2011 US Open : 9 Aces

vs Djokovic

2008 US Open : 14 aces
2008 Australian Open : 16 Aces

vs Murray

2006 Wimbledon : 21 Aces
2000 Wimbledon : 21 Aces

vs Federer

2003 Wimbledon : 4 Aces
2004 Wimbledon : 11 Aces
2005 Wimbledon : 7 Aces
2006 US Open : 7 Aces
2007 Australian Open : 4 Aces
2007 US Open : 14 Aces
2009 Australian Open : 8 Aces
2009 Wimbledon : 27 Aces


I'm not even counting Master Tournaments, which would make Roddick's serve look alot better. With a smaller sample, Roddick still has been able to consistently outserve Federer for the most part, particularly against Djokovic and Murray. Roddick really hasn't played Nadal enough in the slams, so it's hard to quantify whether or not he's a better server against Nadal. Also you have to remember Roddick is usually equaling or outdoing Federer in less sets. For instance, Federer in fact rarely hits more than 15 aces unless it is a long 4/5 setter. The only person Roddick struggles to hit aces against are Federer and Nadal, and really he just hasn't played enough sets against Nadal, and Federer is just a terrible match-up for Roddick. Against everyone else, Roddick outperforms Federer in less sets for the most part.


If we take Roddick against his own current generation, his numbers look even better


vs Hewitt

2001 Roland Garros : 0 Aces (lol)
2001 US Open : 21 Aces
2005 Australian Open : 31 Aces
2006 US Open : 17 Aces
2009 Wimbledon : 43 Aces
2012 AO : 12 Aces

vs Safin

2004 Australian Open : 18 Aces
2007 Australian Open : 14 Aces



This is against the cream of the crop for the most part too. If we're talking about just QFs and up, I guarantee that Roddick has Federer beat in the Aces department alone.

I agree wholeheartedly. This is an absurd debate. Fed is bar none my favorite player the last 20 years but to say he has a better serve than Roddick is taking this contrarian perspective a little far. I know those who say Fed has a better serve want to sound smart, like you're observing something others don't. But you're trying to find something that isn't there. Fed has a very good serve but he has a far superior forehand, far better movement and a better backhand. If fact, there's not a single thing Roddick does that is remotely as good as Fed. But he can serve and that was good enough to let him hang around the top 4-5 in the world for a long time.

Yes, Fed's disguise and placement is better than Roddick's. But power, especially power like Roddick's, means something, even at the pro level. Roddick also has one thing on his serve that people don't really appreciate. His serve is ridiculously consistent for a guy that serves this hard. He regularly serves above 60%-65% on 1st serves hitting over 130 consistently. Historically, I've never seen anyone like that. His second serve is very difficult to handle, even for most pros.