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View Full Version : Can It Damage Racquet if Tie-Off in Wrong Grommet?


myservenow
05-03-2012, 07:39 PM
I have one of the newest Wilson Pro Staff 95s. Stringing instructions from Wilson say skip 7,9 top/bottom and tie off mains at 8 bottom. For me, it is impossible to tie off at 8 and not worth all the trouble. Instead, I have been tying off at 6 bottom (I think).

What is the danger in tying off at a different grommet than in the instructions?

jim e
05-03-2012, 07:56 PM
I have one of the newest Wilson Pro Staff 95s. Stringing instructions from Wilson say skip 7,9 top/bottom and tie off mains at 8 bottom. For me, it is impossible to tie off at 8 and not worth all the trouble. Instead, I have been tying off at 6 bottom (I think).

What is the danger in tying off at a different grommet than in the instructions?

No danger at all. You will be fine. In future if you want to tie off at the proper grommet, you can before you start to string take an awl, lube it with chapstick and slowly twist it into the grommet to slightly enlargen it so using the listed tie off would be easier.

fortun8son
05-04-2012, 12:39 AM
I've found variations on many racquets that make the listed tie off holes impossible.
When I get one of these, I notify USRSA so they can update their list.
Wilson is not exactly known for it's QC and their re-issues are notorious for being different than the originals. :):)

Bottom line: If it looks like a tie-off grommet, it probably is.

Irvin
05-04-2012, 01:50 AM
I do not like using anything but the standard tie off holes. Here is the pattern for your racket. Mains tie off at 8T and the crosses tie off at 5H and 11T.
http://www.wilson.com/en-us/sports/tennis/pdf/rackets/Pro_Staff_Six_One_95_BLX.pdf?view=Standard
If you are using gut do not use a starting knot for the crosses I think it bad to use gut for an anchor string (with a starting knot.)

cknobman
05-04-2012, 07:00 AM
Wont damage the racquet but you could damage the grommets since your tying off in a grommet that is not oversized for it.

Irvin
05-04-2012, 07:13 AM
Wont damage the racquet but you could damage the grommets since your tying off in a grommet that is not oversized for it.

Some rackets (especially Wilson's) have many over sized grommet holes and you can use any of them without opening one up. I am not sure if this one does or not. But I would rather use the listed tie off holes from the manufacturer.

myservenow
05-04-2012, 07:16 AM
I do not like using anything but the standard tie off holes. Here is the pattern for your racket. Mains tie off at 8T and the crosses tie off at 5H and 11T.
http://www.wilson.com/en-us/sports/tennis/pdf/rackets/Pro_Staff_Six_One_95_BLX.pdf?view=Standard
If you are using gut do not use a starting knot for the crosses I think it bad to use gut for an anchor string (with a starting knot.)

I will work on making the 8T grommet hole larger pre-stringing to see if that helps. The problem is that the angle of the string already present through the grommet makes it dang near impossible to push another string through. I know it can be accomplished, but why make it so difficult.

Secondly, the cross tie off at 11T is one of those where the cross and main strings at the tie-off location are right up against the frame itself. It leaves virtually no room for a tie-off and certainly no room to maneuver your fingers as you are attempting the tie-off.

Thanks everyone for the responses.

Irvin
05-04-2012, 08:38 AM
You don't need to make 8T large it is already a tie off so it should be large enough. Are you stringing one piece or two piece?

EDIT: You could put the string your tying off in 8T before pulling tension on the 7th main.

stringwalla
05-04-2012, 02:41 PM
A "tie-off" is grommet that will accept a second string to secure the knot.

Optimally, it will be as close as possible to the last string pulled.

Many designers don't string, and the factory tie-offs sometimes aren't in the best locations. I don't understand the logic.

Usually for pro's, "tie-offs" are manually created to off set tension loss at the knot.

Bottom line is tie off where ever you can. It won't affect the frames integrity-

Irvin
05-04-2012, 06:09 PM
'stringwalla' if the racket is being strung one piece why would you want to open up a hole farther away when 8T is the closet tie off hole?

SwankPeRFection
05-04-2012, 06:10 PM
I have to wonder why you don't have enough room to properly string your racquet. Perhaps you need to watch this so you can start using this technique to get a string to go where it needs to go. Don't half-*** a string job... nothing is worse than looking at a racquet that's not been properly strung.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfG-nlb4JxU&list=UUWP__pn7nOBLDgTK_dP56TQ&index=8&feature=plcp

fortun8son
05-04-2012, 11:19 PM
While it's true that there are many tricks to getting a string through a tight grommet, the the fact remains that there are, indeed, many racquets that do not match the listed pattern.
Factory error? Mid-run change? Sloppiy standards?
Who knows?
Hard to tell without pics/vids if that is the case here.

Maybe you guys don't get this kind of thing often, but you'd be amazed and amused at the kind of stuff I get at SA!
That's how I got so involved with USRSA.
I had to call frequently to get patterns for frames that didn't mach the listings or were missing entirely.
I'd love to buy some of this stuff that's coming out of these garages.:)

SwankPeRFection
05-05-2012, 08:03 AM
I don't think we're talking about some off the wall weird racquet here fortun8son. It's a brand new Pro Staff 95, which has documented patters on Wilson's site and strings up just fine per those instructions... I know, because I've strung one when they came out. There are no issues tieing off where they tell you, you just need to get the string in there, which when I did it, I had no resistance issues.

myservenow
05-05-2012, 10:14 AM
So, does anyone take the position that the manufacturer chooses the tie-off spots because those spots are the end-all, be-all of tie-off spot locations? Or is it really just an afterthought by the manufacturer?

If it doesn't effect the structural integrity of the racquet, then I don't think it matters. With the PS 95, the final cross string is at 7Throat. The instructions call for tie-off at 11Throat. What? Someone mentioned loss of tension the further away from the last used grommet. Well, there's plenty of space to tie-off the cross at 9Throat. Not to mention a huge pet peeve at 11Throat, there is no room to make a knot because the cross and main intersect so close to the frame. Seems like no thought at all went into it.

On the main tie-off with this racquet, it calls for tie-off at 8Throat. I say it is almost impossible to do so. There is plenty of space at 6Throat to tie-off with hardly any effort. HERE IS THE KICKER: on this racquet at 6Throat there is an X mark at this grommet. Doesn't that X mark indicate it is designated as a tie-off location? It means something and the grommet hole is extra large. It makes perfect sense to tie-off at 6T. By comparison, there is an X mark at 5Head, which is the location of the starting knot.

In the end, all I care about is not causing damage to my racquets. If it's not going to harm them, Im tying off two grommets over from the ridiculous manufacturer's instructions. I'm starting to think these racquet stringing instructions came from some federal government agency.

SwankPeRFection
05-05-2012, 12:56 PM
OK, so here's a question... Are you stringing a hybrid setup or not? If the answer is no, you should be doing a one-piece string job and tieing off in just two appropriate places. If you're doing a two-piece because of a hybrid setup, then whereever you tie off, make sure that you tie off where it's not going to cause a tie loop. By this I mean a tieoff that's going to keep you from pulling your string out of the frame without cutting on the outside of the frame.

mikeler
05-05-2012, 01:47 PM
My PK 7Gs the tie off holes are listed wrong. It is quite obvious when you look at the grommet sizes.

myservenow
05-05-2012, 06:40 PM
OK, so here's a question... Are you stringing a hybrid setup or not? If the answer is no, you should be doing a one-piece string job and tieing off in just two appropriate places. If you're doing a two-piece because of a hybrid setup, then whereever you tie off, make sure that you tie off where it's not going to cause a tie loop. By this I mean a tieoff that's going to keep you from pulling your string out of the frame without cutting on the outside of the frame.

I think I understand what you mean by tie loop. When I cut the strings out, I simply cut the strings inside the frame and then push them out of the grommets. I don't have to cut outside of the frame to release any string. Two piece job with hybrid set up is what I do.

CDestroyer
05-05-2012, 07:06 PM
No you won't damage your racquet. I will use the tie offs that are suggested unless they are poorly placed. The shorter your tie off the less tension you will lose.

I always add 10 pounds to the last mains and cross of each tie off not to exceed the manufacturers maximum tension recommendation.

This keeps uneccesary stress on the frame from stringing past the max reco'd limits.

fortun8son
05-05-2012, 09:42 PM
It's not just weird ones.
Case in point. The Wilson nFury OS (110)
When it was updated and released as the nFury Hybrid, some were still the 16x19 that start at the throat while others were 16x20 that start at the head. Same paintjob. The 16x20 was not listed at the time, it is now.

drakulie
05-06-2012, 08:58 AM
There is no problem selecting a different tie off, as long as you don't jeopardize the integrity of the frame material by enlarging a different grommet. In fact, the main Wilson engineer for racquet design preaches it. As a result, mains are tied off on mains and crosses on crosses.

zapvor
05-06-2012, 08:08 PM
i have screwed up before with the holes, and so far i havent had any issues

stringwalla
05-08-2012, 03:25 PM
In fact, the main Wilson engineer for racquet design preaches it. As a result, mains are tied off on mains and crosses on crosses.Only for the last X at the bottom Drak. This is where most of our hole opening occurs. The top X always uses the factory tie-off on a main. Unless it's a Storm where a tie off is on the 3rd X with certain sensitive strings-

drakulie
05-08-2012, 04:28 PM
Only for the last X at the bottom Drak. This is where most of our hole opening occurs. The top X always uses the factory tie-off on a main. Unless it's a Storm where a tie off is on the 3rd X with certain sensitive strings-

Actually, Ron Rocci promotes widening holes on the second cross string from top down. This way, a stringer could complete the 3 stack around the world used. Also, either the third or fifth cross string grommet from bottom up, depening on which is more for convenient for this pattern (He calls it a 3 box pattern, but it is actually a ATW with a stacking of the 3 top and bottom strings). Great pattern for most Wilson frames that have two skips at top and bottom. He was actually surprised I already knew this pattern and it is the one we use at our pro shop. (he was teaching it at the symposium)

He stated this is the pattern used by the Wilson Stringers. Guess not.

stringwalla
05-08-2012, 05:25 PM
Actually, Ron Rocchi promotes widening holes on the second cross string from top down. This way, a stringer could complete the 3 stack around the world used.
He stated this is the pattern used by the Wilson Stringers. Guess not.

Ron enjoys challenging stringers to think quick to test their aptitude. There are many approaches to filling a frame.

No, currently the 3 stack is not used (by any pro team I'm aware of). Besides, that would make the on court <15 minute frame a little more difficult.

I'm hoping to return to the symposium this year. Heard last year was excellent and hope to meet some fellow forum members there-

drakulie
05-08-2012, 05:59 PM
Ron enjoys challenging stringers to think quick to test their aptitude. There are many approaches to filling a frame.

He wasn't really challenging anyone, rather, when speaking about the engineering process of a frame, and then teaching different patterns the Wilson string utilizes, that it becomes necessary at times to widen grommets in order to accommodate the pattern.

One could actually see, more and more, the influence of stringers on the way frames today are engineered. For example, many Wilson frames have several locations where the grommets are unusually large (as large as tie off grommets). Most probably influenced by Ron himself.

Roman Prokes who promotes, or at least use to, the opening of grommets to complete his "3 box pattern" has most probably had an influence on Donnay Frames (I believe he works with Donnay in some capacity), where the tie offs are main on main, and cross on cross.

babolat has also, as you mentioned engineered the Pure Storm this way and the pure drive/aero pro drive in this way when completing a two piece.

anyway, very interesting to hear about different apporaches on the subject.

gtshark1
06-11-2012, 07:57 PM
This issue was mentioned here but I didn't see a clear answer... May have missed it-

What do you do when the tie off area on the crosses is too close to a main and you can't get a good knot in there? Had this issue tonight at grommet 11 on PSC 6.1. I got the knot but lost some tension because I couldn't pull the slack tight enough on the outside.

Irvin
06-12-2012, 08:33 AM
This issue was mentioned here but I didn't see a clear answer... May have missed it-

What do you do when the tie off area on the crosses is too close to a main and you can't get a good knot in there? Had this issue tonight at grommet 11 on PSC 6.1. I got the knot but lost some tension because I couldn't pull the slack tight enough on the outside.

You need to make sure the anchor string you are tying on (cross at 11T) is above the outside main. Assuming that cross is the 17 cross when you start your crosses you need to make sure the 3rd cross (also odd number) is above the outside main on the side you will tie off on. The way the knot slides over the main very easy. Or you could tie off from the bottom but that is more difficult for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kdX47_uVsw&feature=plcp

Chotobaka
06-12-2012, 04:40 PM
This issue was mentioned here but I didn't see a clear answer... May have missed it-

What do you do when the tie off area on the crosses is too close to a main and you can't get a good knot in there? Had this issue tonight at grommet 11 on PSC 6.1. I got the knot but lost some tension because I couldn't pull the slack tight enough on the outside.

You can use cam piers to pull tension on your tie-off and then hold the string with lubed awl before tying the knot. Alternatively, you might over-tension that string before tying off.