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View Full Version : 2nd best female hard courter (after Serena) of last 15 years


NadalAgassi
07-06-2012, 09:59 PM
It is a no brainer Serena is the greatest female hard courter overall of the last 15 years. Who would be 2nd best though amongst Venus, Henin, Davenport, Sharapova, Hingis, or Clijsters

NadalAgassi
07-06-2012, 10:07 PM
I voted for Henin. Only since she has won all the important hard court titles- Australian, U.S Open, Olympics, and WTA Championships, on hard courts, once or twice each.

egn
07-06-2012, 10:49 PM
I'm gonna have to edge Hingis a bit over Henin. Hingis has four hardcourt majors to Henin's 3. She has more tier 1 titles as well on hardcourts and the same amount of world tour finals. I'd edge Hingis just because at moments she was unbeatable on hardcourts and it was brilliant.

For me out of all of those the order is
Hingis
Henin
Kim
Venus
Davenport
Maria

egn
07-07-2012, 09:18 AM
I kind of actually want to hear more input on this topic, so bump to avoid the usual fedal discussions.

BeHappy
07-07-2012, 09:23 AM
Henin is better and she proved that by beating both sisters consecutively at the USO 2007.

Ripster
07-07-2012, 09:31 AM
Although I think Henin is the better player overall, in terms of hard court success I'd have to put Clijsters as the best. Hingis is up there too.

SystemicAnomaly
07-07-2012, 09:42 AM
If you go back 15 years, you've got to give a nod to Steffi Graf.

Altho' she missed most of 1997 and the first half of 1998 she started to make a comeback at the USO and YEC in '98. She had a good enough year from late '98 to Aug of '99 to retire at #3. Altho' she was past her prime after '96, she was able to post a hard court record of 14-5 for '98 and again for '99.

Towser83
07-07-2012, 09:49 AM
probably henin, maybe hingis..

BigServer1
07-07-2012, 09:53 AM
Henin
Hingis
Clijsters

That order. Henin winning all the big HC events 1-2 times each is big, especially her win in 2007, beating the Williams sisters back to back.

Hingis at her best would have been an incredible match up with Henin, and I'd favor both of them over Kim.

NadalAgassi
07-07-2012, 09:47 PM
If you go back 15 years, you've got to give a nod to Steffi Graf.

Altho' she missed most of 1997 and the first half of 1998 she started to make a comeback at the USO and YEC in '98. She had a good enough year from late '98 to Aug of '99 to retire at #3. Altho' she was past her prime after '96, she was able to post a hard court record of 14-5 for '98 and again for '99.

Yes a player who in the last 15 years has amassed a round of 16 and quarterfinal in 2 hard court slams, and a Pilot Pen title, is the 2nd best hard court player of the last 15 years. Someone is a little bit of a Graftard. Hmm is this Joe Pike's new account.

egn
07-07-2012, 10:42 PM
Okay so I've read a lot of Henin support, but with little to no evidence as into why? The arguments are winning each major title on hardcourts and the WTF. Hingis did that as well. Like can we have a valid reason for Henin above Hingis besides beating both Williams in 2007 when no offense what Williams sister in 2007 was going to win the US. Serena maybe but Venus no way in hell. Hingis at her best dominated hardcourts, and it's not fair for Hingis as the WTF was still carpet for her, but she was a monster on indoor hardcourts so I don't see how she wouldn't win it on that surface. I just don't get how 6 straight Aussie finals with 3 victories and 3 straight US Open finals with two victories and more tier 1 titles puts her behind Henin.

NadalAgassi
07-08-2012, 07:22 AM
Actually Venus was clearly the 2nd best player of the 2007 U.S Open. She was always going to win the U.S Open without Henin (unless maybe Serena beat her). Who else was going to beat her there, Kuznetsova or Chakvatedze, ROTFL! Serena also was the biggest threat besides those two at that event.

As for Hingis she dominated hard courts in 97-early 98, but who was the competition then. Jana Novotna, Conchita Martinez, Mary Pierce? She never dominated hard courts after January 98, winning only one more major where she didnt even play any of her chief rivals. Losing alot of hard court finals is not domination. A prime Henin would never lost back to back slam finals anywhere, Australian Open or elsewhere, to Jennifer Capriati for instance.

Henin won the Olympics on hard courts so when people say she won it all on hard courts they are including that. It is not like Hingis couldnt have, she played an Olympics on hard courts half a year before reaching #1, and could have easily been playing the 2004 Olympics herself at 23 had she not chosen to retire young after being unable to keep up with the big hitters.

MichaelNadal
07-08-2012, 07:43 AM
Actually Venus was clearly the 2nd best player of the 2007 U.S Open. She was always going to win the U.S Open without Henin (unless maybe Serena beat her). Who else was going to beat her there, Kuznetsova or Chakvatedze, ROTFL! Serena also was the biggest threat besides those two at that event.

As for Hingis she dominated hard courts in 97-early 98, but who was the competition then. Jana Novotna, Conchita Martinez, Mary Pierce? She never dominated hard courts after January 98, winning only one more major where she didnt even play any of her chief rivals. Losing alot of hard court finals is not domination. A prime Henin would never lost back to back slam finals anywhere, Australian Open or elsewhere, to Jennifer Capriati for instance.

Henin won the Olympics on hard courts so when people say she won it all on hard courts they are including that. It is not like Hingis couldnt have, she played an Olympics on hard courts half a year before reaching #1, and could have easily been playing the 2004 Olympics herself at 23 had she not chosen to retire young after being unable to keep up with the big hitters.

Im still mad at Venus for not beating Clijsters at the USO in 2010, that was her last chance to get to the final, and she would have won.

NadalAgassi
07-08-2012, 08:56 AM
Im still mad at Venus for not beating Clijsters at the USO in 2010, that was her last chance to get to the final, and she would have won.

Yeah I agree. She really had that match too. She just didnt quite finish it in the 2nd set.

NadalAgassi
07-10-2012, 03:11 PM
Okay so I've read a lot of Henin support, but with little to no evidence as into why? The arguments are winning each major title on hardcourts and the WTF. Hingis did that as well. Like can we have a valid reason for Henin above Hingis besides beating both Williams in 2007 when no offense what Williams sister in 2007 was going to win the US. Serena maybe but Venus no way in hell. Hingis at her best dominated hardcourts, and it's not fair for Hingis as the WTF was still carpet for her, but she was a monster on indoor hardcourts so I don't see how she wouldn't win it on that surface. I just don't get how 6 straight Aussie finals with 3 victories and 3 straight US Open finals with two victories and more tier 1 titles puts her behind Henin.

So when apart from 1997-January 1998 do you think Hingis dominated on hard courts? Just curious. I would say Henin dominated hard courts from July 2003-July 2004, and probably even more than Hingis ever did, winning the U.S Open, Australian Open, several Premier titles, the Olympics. I would also say overall Henin dominated hard courts completely from November 2006-early January 2008, winning almost every event she was in on hard courts including the U.S Open and 2 WTA Championships, and her biggest loss was the Miami final where she blew a 6-0, 5-3 lead to Serena so was even dominating that match most of the way. So I would say Henin had two periods of domination on hard courts about the same length as Hingis's 1 period.

boredone3456
07-10-2012, 03:48 PM
Henin
Clijsters
Venus

All are arguable but I would say thats the tentative order. Henin gets the edge for 2 hardcourt major final wins over Kim.

kishnabe
07-10-2012, 07:59 PM
Henin based on results. Clijsters based on form and comfortness on Hard courts.

wilkinru
07-10-2012, 09:05 PM
If you go back 15 years, you've got to give a nod to Steffi Graf.

Altho' she missed most of 1997 and the first half of 1998 she started to make a comeback at the USO and YEC in '98. She had a good enough year from late '98 to Aug of '99 to retire at #3. Altho' she was past her prime after '96, she was able to post a hard court record of 14-5 for '98 and again for '99.

Agassi approved.

egn
07-10-2012, 09:13 PM
So when apart from 1997-January 1998 do you think Hingis dominated on hard courts? Just curious. I would say Henin dominated hard courts from July 2003-July 2004, and probably even more than Hingis ever did, winning the U.S Open, Australian Open, several Premier titles, the Olympics. I would also say overall Henin dominated hard courts completely from November 2006-early January 2008, winning almost every event she was in on hard courts including the U.S Open and 2 WTA Championships, and her biggest loss was the Miami final where she blew a 6-0, 5-3 lead to Serena so was even dominating that match most of the way. So I would say Henin had two periods of domination on hard courts about the same length as Hingis's 1 period.

Wait hold on a second. You can not even try to claim that from July 03 to July 04 Henin was more dominate than Hingis was in From Jan 97 to Jan 98. She was 38-1 won both hardcourt majors in that time period and was beating everyone. Please explain to me how on earth Henin was more dominate? Sorry that Hingis played her best tennis in the year the Olympics wasn't running. Hingis won 97 Aussie, 97 US and then 98 Aussie. That's three straight hardcourt majors. If that's not dominating the surface what is? Also again sorry Hingis didn't win the WTF on hardcourts, it was played on carpet in her era. However in terms of dominating what was available to her in hardcourts I'd say she did a pretty damn good job.

Henin had two periods of domination? What's funny is your biggest claim to her superiority is her being better than Serena, yet in her 'period of dominance' it's when Serena was missing. She won two majors without prime Serena in the picture. Who almost everyone would agree had she not be injured would have won that 2003 US Open has she was undefeated on hardcourts. That being said I still don't get any of your claims for Henin being greater. You claim she was more dominant, yet no evidence suggest that she was any more dominant. Hingis won more reptitive hardcourt majors, had a better peak form based on win loss records for years, has more hardcourt majors in total, more finals, more semi finals and did it in a more compact period of time. And I'm sorry in Hingis period of dominance, which I would argue ran from Jan 97 to mid 98 she won 8 titles, 3 of those being majors and had an insane record on hardcourts. Henin's overall hardcourt resume is less than Hingis. I mean the only area she leads in is that Olympic (which I would not value anywhere near a 4th major). I throw the WTF out the window in comparsion of the two because Hingis didn't get to play them on Hardcourts and they were carpet (a surface which Hingis was probably even better on).


I guess it comes down to what you really want to believe as I'm not going to argue this but the reason I put Hingis ahead are as follows.


In terms of just majors
4 majors > 3 majors
9 finals > 6 finals
6 straight years in the semis of each hardcourt major
Better hardcourt major records

In terms of tier 1 titles
8 titles > 5 titles
again more finals

Better period of sustained dominance where she won 3 straight majors on the surface to Henin's two straight majors.

All and I all Henin has the edge with a slightly better win percentage and a few more smaller titles, but I think a lot of that is contributed to the fact that in Hingis' era carpet was still way more prominent as evident by her 16 titles on the surface. I'm sure if a lot of those carpets were replaced with indoor hardcourts this conversation would not even be happening as Hingis' title count would be nearly 13-14 tier 1 titles on the surface and she would have two tier 1 titles as well. Hingis played masterfully on hardcourts and people seem to forget that although her time at the top was short she was impressive. By 22 Hingis had played probably as much tennis as most players have played by 25-26, ankle injuries were doing her in and she was burnt out. Similar to how Henin just vanished for a few years at 25-26 she was burnt out then. Either way I'm done with this, to each his own. It's not like Henin is awful either, but the fact that Hingis has such little support is shocking.