Another thread on Plantar Fasiitis! [Archive]

baseliner

08-10-2005, 07:39 AM

My experience with this leads me to believe the average Doctor knows less about this than many on this board. After suffering for over a month from heel pain (brought on by my big mouth--After a three set doubles match I challenged on of the other guys to a best 3 out of 5 singles match. Won easily then could hardly walk next day and the following month) and trying NSAI's such as ibuprofen and Naproxen with icing. I went to the Doctor. He diagnosed Plantar Fasciitis and gave me a 5 day steroid pack and prescription strength anti inflammatory and encourage use of soft heel cups.
Not much relief. I'm still hobbling badly. I read some of the past threads and say full length inserts with arch supports. went to another web site mentioned here (www.heelspurs.com) ordered one pair of the inserts and within 3 days was back to walking normally. I have walked on the treadmill for last 2 days and believe I'm on the road to recovery. Thanks for the info. By the way it seems some of the info from the Doctor (soft heel cups) may actually be counterproductive to recovery as that would tend to stretch the arch rather than support it. Next decision is to decide how may pairs of additional inserts I need as I am getting very tired of changing the inserts every time I change shoes.

scotus

08-10-2005, 08:36 AM

Shoe inserts are good. I have low arches, so I have inserts in all my shoes.

But the most helpful remedy I have found for my PF is stretching. In the morning when it hurts like crazy, I do the following:

1. Get a hold of a wall and stand about 1 1/2 to 2 feet away.
2. Stand on one foot only.
3. Lift up the heel of the foot so as to stand on the ball of the foot.
4. Lean forward so that your head will be in front of your torso, and your torso in front of your feet.
5. Slowly lower the heel but without letting it actually touch the floor. Feel the stretching in the plantar fascia. Hold this for about 10 seconds.
6. Switch feet. Repeat.
7. If you need to, do 1-6 again.

After this, I am pain free for the rest of the day!

baseliner

08-13-2005, 06:05 AM

Scotus,
Great new stretch. I tried it and we'll see how it works. Stretching is an important key to recovery once you got the pain on the decrease. I'm always hanging my heels off the escalator steps throughout the day. One cause of PF is lack of flexibility in the calf.

Marius_Hancu

08-13-2005, 07:05 AM

which shoes are you using? they can be a big contributor.

test them for flexibility as per:
http://www.drpribut.com/sports/heelhtm.htm

the best stretching routines I know are at:
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0180.htm
esp. C

Marius_Hancu

08-13-2005, 07:11 AM

The shoes which created PF for me were New Balance 800.

The ones which cured me were Nike Air Oscillates, very flexible and low to the ground. Sampra's shoes. Available only from Europe now.

Also Wilson shoes were quite good (Pro Staff 700 series, which also last well).

baseliner

08-14-2005, 02:19 PM

Marius, They were Heads. Threw out the inserts that came with the shoes to insert the ones I bought so don't know which model Head. In fairness to Head, I've got 6+ months of play on them. Good info. Little confused on the flexibility of the shoes since hard inserts seem to help.

baseliner

08-14-2005, 02:23 PM

OK. After reading the Dr. P. article on flexibility, I think I've got it. Got to bend ball of the foot and not at arch or behind ball. Makes sense.

fist pump

08-14-2005, 08:34 PM

the tough part about Pf is when sleeping at night - our feet rest in a position for a long time and when you first wake up - you won tbe able to walk and it hurts .

all the things you mentioned helps , it also helps get a night splinth for your feet when you sleep to hold it in a streched position.

Rumjungle

08-14-2005, 11:19 PM

Any recommendations on night splints? does that eliminate morning pain and tightness? any drawbacks?

Marius_Hancu

08-15-2005, 08:58 AM

Marius_Hancu

08-15-2005, 08:59 AM

OK. After reading the Dr. P. article on flexibility, I think I've got it. Got to bend ball of the foot and not at arch or behind ball. Makes sense.

right, this is where the shoes must flex.

MonkeyPox

08-15-2005, 09:51 AM

The night splint thing is good, but only when you have a bad case since it is SO inconvenient and makes it so hard to sleep. Best to just do it like an hour before getting out of bed as it stretches you out some and then you are ready to go. The elastic bands aroung the foot are the most important thing. A must.

Rumjungle

08-15-2005, 09:56 AM

right, this is where the shoes must flex.

Is there a list of tennis shoes somewhere of the ones with the proper flex point? I just get a chance to see many tennis-specific shoes and just realized that the Barricade II's that I wear (and love), flex in the middle and not at the ball.

Marius_Hancu

08-15-2005, 10:18 AM

Is there a list of tennis shoes somewhere of the ones with the proper flex point? I just get a chance to see many tennis-specific shoes and just realized that the Barricade II's that I wear (and love), flex in the middle and not at the ball.

I don't know of any such list.

As to what we love, I loved NB until I got PF. Now, I am not buying from them any more.

I'd suggest Nike shoes are quite flexible, at least Air Oscillates are for me. But sometime they wear out too fast. But look at Fed, he's having PF wearing Nike. OK, I know that there are many causes for PF, still ....

Thus, you just have to stand on guard for yourself and test.

08-15-2005, 10:54 AM

Is there a list of tennis shoes somewhere of the ones with the proper flex point? I just get a chance to see many tennis-specific shoes and just realized that the Barricade II's that I wear (and love), flex in the middle and not at the ball.

I wear Barricades, and I don't get PF with them. I used to have PF, with the old FYW Adidas, which might have been too low to the ground, or maybe it had nothing to do with the PF .... I do put orthotics in my shoes now.

Don't forget your other footwear: I think that's what caused my PF, and not my tennis shoes. I'm much more careful about what I wear off the court, because that's where I didn't have support. Lots of flipflops, etc. Now I never go barefoot, and I wear Birkenstocks or clogs most of the time. Or flipflops with good arch support (well, good for flipflops).

And night splints, once you get used to them, are great. It took me a couple of nights, but it was well worth it.

Marius_Hancu

08-15-2005, 11:14 AM

I never wore Barricades.

I checked the Feedback at TW (which you should always do before buying). There's only one complaint on them being stiff. Nothing on PF. However, if they are stiff, you should be careful, that's not a good sign.

But yes, also check the other shoes you're wearing throughout the day.

Rumjungle

08-15-2005, 12:15 PM

Oh, so the shoe itself should be flexible, but should also only flex it the ball of the foot and not the middle. TW should put up a search feature for PF friendly shoes. :)

As for the Barricades, don't get me wrong. I didn't get PF from them, I've had the PF for a year now. I just happen to like the way they perform as a tennis shoe and they feel decent to me. My PF isn't getting worse or better with them. However, I noticed that they don't flex in the right place (as that website suggested) and was wondering if there was anyway to find out which ones do (flex properly). As it stands, the only way I'm gonna get to find out is to purchase them first from TW and hope for the best.

baseliner, I ordered some of the same full length inserts as well. I just hope they work as good for me as they did for you. Currently, I've got my custom orthotics only in my work shoes, as that's where I spend the most time on my feet (and they're a pain to transfer from shoe to shoe).

Marius_Hancu

08-15-2005, 01:55 PM

Oh, so the shoe itself should be flexible, but should also only flex it the ball of the foot and not the middle. TW should put up a search feature for PF friendly shoes. :) do (flex properly).

check test for flexibility as per:
http://www.drpribut.com/sports/heelhtm.htm
as far as I understand it, it should flex first and mainly at the ball of the foot

Marius_Hancu

08-15-2005, 01:57 PM

As for the Barricades, don't get me wrong. I didn't get PF from them, I've had the PF for a year now. I just happen to like the way they perform as a tennis shoe and they feel decent to me. My PF isn't getting worse or better with them .

If they don't flex the way they should, it certainly doesn't help your healing.

Marius_Hancu

08-18-2005, 05:17 PM

Is there a list of tennis shoes somewhere of the ones with the proper flex point? I just get a chance to see many tennis-specific shoes and just realized that the Barricade II's that I wear (and love), flex in the middle and not at the ball.

I went to a store in Montreal, applied the flexibility test to a pair of Adidas Barricades III (not II), they seem to be OK to me.

Rumjungle

08-18-2005, 05:26 PM

That's good news, I hope the IV's are like that as well. If not, I'll just get a pair of the III's before they're discontinued. Thanks for the research Marius. :)

BTW, I just received those full-length inserts and they work great with the BII's. The inserts feel good and, with them in, the shoe now flexes mainly at the ball of the foot (since the part of the insert under the arch is somewhat rigid).

AndrewD

08-21-2005, 12:38 AM

What a wonderfully timely thread (at least for me).

You can add my name to the list of people on this board suffering from Plantar Fasiitis, although its not the kind of list Id like to be on. Mine occurred due to a combination of factors but the most telling is wearing a pair of shoes (old Adidas retro Stan Smith) past the point where they had begun to wear noticably. The wear was most notable on the inner part of my right heel and I would imagine that imbalance is connected to a past knee injury sustained while playing Australian Rules Football. Stupidly, I wore those shoes to play tennis and, one week, when following my serve in to net I had to shift quickly and felt a tear in my calf. Couple of weeks off with that and soon after the Plantar Fasiitis reared its ugly head. Obviously the calf muscle hadn't healed properly and the subsequent lack of flexibility increased tension in the PF area beyond the point it was able to manage. Have been a bit lost as to a cure or means of relief so tried to 'tough it out' (always the dumbest approach) but today, after one set of tennis, I realised the problem was too far advanced.

Baseliner and Marius, thanks very much for the excellent links. I've applied the ice, bought some tape and tomorrow will head out (after stretching) to look for some support.

Just for reference, the shoes Ive been wearing are the New Balance 652. They weren't the cause of the PF (it developed prior to my buying them) but I wonder how good they are for this condition (I notice Marius mentioned his problem with them). Anyone have an idea about the NB's suitability, please let me know.

Rumjungle

08-21-2005, 07:35 AM

BTW, just checkout out the Nike Air Zoom Breath Free II's. Great feeling shoe with the proper flex point, but has a glued in sole so it won't work for orthotics.

Marius_Hancu

08-21-2005, 08:47 AM

BTW, just checkout out the Nike Air Zoom Breath Free II's. Great feeling shoe with the proper flex point, but has a glued in sole so it won't work for orthotics.

Try:

Nike Max Breathe Free II Men's

not sure if any better in terms of insole, but I see them very much used by pros, and some of them MUST have orthotics.

sinoslav

08-24-2005, 01:35 AM

I've also had PF problems, but I'm much better now. Here's what's worked for me:

1) I switched from cheap Head shoes to the Nike Breathe Free IIs, which have the proper flex point and support my feet well. I have fairly flat feet and tend to overpronate; I've found the Nikes (without orthotics) to match my needs pretty well. Also I've switched out to more appropriate arch support in my non-athletic shoes too, this is important.

2) I've focused a lot on increasing the flexibility of my calves through stretching. This is HUGELY helpful in alleviating PF.

3) I've also worked on strengthening my lower legs, both my calves and tibias. I think this helps, though calf flexibility rather then strength is probably paramount.

baseliner

09-12-2005, 09:26 AM

Hven't been playing any tennis lately. My National Guard unit got mobilized and sent to Southern Mississippi for flood relief duty. At night the troops have a basketball tournament going. Since 20+ yerars ago I officiated HS and college basketball, I agreed to ref the games. My PF has been pretty bad what with being on my feet and wearing combat boots so I did it with trepidation. First night hurt bad and hobbled next day. Got through game next day and got up in the AM and pain much less. Today after 3 games in 3 days I feel as good as I have in a long time. My guess is the backpedaling in officiating a basketball game is good stretching for the PF? Anyone else with some insight?

Marius_Hancu

09-12-2005, 09:33 AM

backcourt

09-12-2005, 10:10 AM

AndrewD. Like Marius, I also developed PF while wearing the NB 800s. They have some type of hard sability bar in the sole which I think may contribute to their being stiff resulting in PF. Of course this is my theory. The newer version 802's claim the bar helps prevent pronation, which can be related to PF. I began using a yoursoles.com insert which worked well, but due to my wide foot stuck with NB, first the 651's and now the 1001's, and haven't had any PF problems for about 2 years now. So in my experience other NB models dont seem to cause PF. I continue to use the insoles in my street shoes that have low arches, but no longer use them in my 1001's.

baseliner

09-12-2005, 12:23 PM

true they have little flexibility but they also have no arch support to speak of (Corcoran Jump boots) They were hurting the first week to ten days until the basketball started. I need to do more research, but I'm leaning toward the backward running. By the way, you would not believe some of the things I have seen from the storm. A several ton barge sitting 1/4 mile from the ocean on dry land, completely leveled land block after block.

baseliner

09-15-2005, 02:26 PM

After consulting with a podiatrist in the military, you are correct Dr. Marius Hancu. He said the Corcoran Jump boot is the absolute best footwear for treatment of PF. The boot was built to give maximum support to the foot for those jumping out of airplanes. The narrow heel cup and broad toe box are ideal for PF. He even recommended wearing them for dress wear/work. Recommended Carolina work boots which are good but cheaper imitation of the Corcoran (and available without the toe cap so if you wear the pant leg of your suit outside the boot they appear to be solid black dress shoes. He also said the back pedaling during officiating was also beneficial. Said we need to walk with more of a forward lean with heels not touching the ground. in standing someone should be able to slip a sheet of paper under your heel.

Ronaldo

09-15-2005, 07:42 PM

Posted previously that I had PF so bad that it took three cortisone injections to quiet the inflammation. Find a podiatrist to tape your foot. A good taping will allow you to walk pain-free. Freeze a plastic bottle full of water. Stand on this bottle, rolling it on the bottom of your foot. Really helps relieve pain. Shoes help but an orthotic makes all the difference, at least in my experience. You do not want cushioning. You need rigid control. IMHO, a shoe with a running shoe last, high heel like the Adidas A3, really helps PF. NewBalance changed their last.

Marius_Hancu

09-15-2005, 09:33 PM

The narrow heel cup and broad toe box are ideal for PF. He even recommended wearing them for dress wear/work.

Said we need to walk with more of a forward lean with heels not touching the ground. in standing someone should be able to slip a sheet of paper under your heel.

Valid obs, both of them.

The Air Oscillates which saved me from PF have a narrow heel cup.

I also have Spenco full-length inserts, which raise the heels.

Marius_Hancu

09-15-2005, 09:35 PM

You do not want cushioning. You need rigid control. IMHO, a shoe with a running shoe last, high heel like the Adidas A3, really helps PF.

High heel seems to be crucial, as it probably reduces the tension in the plantar fascia over the arch.

baseliner

09-16-2005, 01:16 PM

The Dr. at the military clinic also recommended Spenco full length inserts. Forgot to mention that in my previous post.

Ronaldo

09-16-2005, 06:14 PM

Btw, used Tuli heel cups and are they comfy, add a bit of snugness, and raise your heel.

JeffH1

09-26-2005, 12:54 PM

I changed shoes. I've always used Nike shoe's whether in Tennis or Martial Arts. I let some salesmen talk me into getting another brand. Two times on the court and BAM, pain. I was running forward for a drop shot and felt a pain from the back of my ankel. This pain persisted, so I stopped all workouts for 3 weeks. Once I could move around a little bit, I bought my "normal" workout shoes, insoles, and started an exercise program. Surprise, surprise, No more pain. It's been about 5 months now.

My exericise treatment after 3 week lay off.
1) Jumping rope on toes, slowly just to warm up (and test the waters!)
2) Stretching with foot at 45 angle on wall and lean into it SLOWLY and other stretches.
3) Dips and Lunges at first without weight, then with 20lb weights in each hand.
4) More stretching.
5) Jumping rope on toes more agressively moving forward/backwards/side to side.
6) More stretching.

Marius_Hancu

10-26-2005, 03:30 AM

Plantar Fasciitis - the French Experience
Gilles Daubinet, Jacques Parier and Bernard Montalvan
http://www.stms.nl/augustus2005/default.html
(select from the contents)

quite interesting ...

Marius_Hancu

10-26-2005, 03:32 AM

you might want to have your shoulders examined this way:

Examining the Shoulder Area of Tennis Players on the ATP Tour
Michal Novotny
http://www.stms.nl/augustus2005/default.html
(select from the contents)

helpful pics ...

Rumjungle

10-26-2005, 10:51 AM

Very informative. Thanks Marius...makes me want to go to doctor to get checked out.:)

John Zheng

12-13-2005, 02:07 PM

I am using full-length supports/orthotics from Spenco ($30), they are very good. in all my tennis shoes now.

Are these the same as either http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageMS-SPCT.html or http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageMA-SPCA.html? These are a bit less than $30. Is there another variation you use from Spenco that's even more effective?

Marius_Hancu

12-13-2005, 03:21 PM

Are these the same as either http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageMS-SPCT.html or http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageMA-SPCA.html? These are a bit less than $30. Is there another variation you use from Spenco that's even more effective?

this is exactly what I am using
http://www.spenco.com/prod_footcare_greenheelsup.html
in its full-length format
not sure about the others, haven't tried them

Boris

12-14-2005, 12:04 AM

High heel seems to be crucial, as it probably reduces the tension in the plantar fascia over the arch.

Yes, I have PF and noticed the heels in my shoes (Lotto ATP Raptor) are *very* low, which has probably aggravated my PF.

A Defenseless Creature

12-14-2005, 05:45 AM

Boris

12-14-2005, 07:53 AM

I also suffered from this ailment and it was a royal pain. The best foot insoles I found were Superfeet. These things work wonders and I wear them in all my shoes now, especially tennis shoes. I found the light blue worked best in my case. They can be found at www.superfeet.com Another tennis player told me about them and I will be forever grateful!

Good luck!

Thanks for the tip! Actually the doc prescribed that I wear custom orthotics when I play. I got them yesterday and tried them today. I was able to load the weight on my foot perfectly, as opposed to the match I played a couple of days ago, when I was still feeling some discomfort (was not wearing any orthotics then). If they were just a bit cheaper...

Ronaldo

12-14-2005, 10:17 AM

John Zheng

12-14-2005, 01:13 PM

How much do you guys pay for the custom orthodics?

I've been looking into superfeet insoles too, glad they work out for you ADC. Why do you prefer the blue ones over the more heavily promoted green ones? It seems to me the green ones might have too high of arch near the heal area, potentially rubbing against your arch and causing blisters.

Marius_Hancu

12-14-2005, 02:38 PM

How much do you guys pay for the custom orthotics?

I think I heard in this forum of $300 or so.
Semi-custom: $70.

Rumjungle

12-14-2005, 05:47 PM

I paid around $240 for mine. Never again. While I wear my custom ones for work, I use full-length $25 PowerSteps for everything else. They're cheap enough for me to keep several sets around so I don't have to swap them in and out all the time.

Boris

12-14-2005, 11:51 PM

Boris, the only drawback to wearing rigid orthotics is the loss of cushioning from the insoles. In the past 5 yrs, my shoes never wore-through but noticeably lost cushioning in the mid-sole in less than 5 mos. Sort of the same situation as a running shoe. To play pain-free is worth an extra pr of shoes/yr.

You are totally right. In fact, even without orthotics, I used to lose cushioning in the midsole of my shoes in perhaps 5 months. I used to buy top-level shoes, and then use them for a bit too long. Will not do the same mistake again.

By the way, the technician that prepared my custom orthotics did add some cushioning material beneath the heel and arch area, so they are at least a bit cushioned and will hopefully preserve a bit the midsole.

John Zheng, the price depends on the kind of orthotics you ned. Mine are quite simple, they just provide a rigid support, plus the addition of a layer of cushioning material. That has cost me around 200 euro in Italy. I know a guy who uses professional custom orthotics, with perhaps 4/5 layers of different materials, such as EVA and the likes. His orthotics are almost equivalent to the midsole+insole of the shoe, and their design was based on computer-assisted analysis of his body, to alleviate various pains in the back caused by a 0.5 mm length difference in his legs (the guy could be a 5.5 player). He told me he paid 400 euro for them. So I guess between 200 and 400 euro you get all the possible in-betweens depending on how sophisticated your orthotics need to be.

Hope this helps.

esrb

12-15-2005, 08:22 PM

Hey Marius....you RULE !!

courtrage

01-30-2006, 01:16 PM

BTW, just checkout out the Nike Air Zoom Breath Free II's. Great feeling shoe with the proper flex point, but has a glued in sole so it won't work for orthotics.

the glue is only enough to keep them in place..not enough to tear them when removing them or make taking them out really hard...take them out if you need to...my buddy uses BioSoles Gel with his BF2 and i started looking at different insoles as well...

jasonbourne

02-08-2006, 03:47 PM

I used to wear custom orthotics for my PF I received from long distance running. Even though I wore these (stiff) orthotics every day in all my shoes I continued to experience PF for years. For one month I did research to resolve this chronic pain in my foot and learned my foot lacked strength and flexibility.
I learned people who live in countries who don't wear shoes because they cannot afford do not suffer from foot ailments. After much reading and thinking about what I researched, I decided to consistently do foot strengthening and stretching exercises, wear flexible or no shoes or flip-flops which ever is appropriate, and run barefoot on my treadmill.
After two months of consistently doing the above I no longer suffer from PF after running, playing tennis, cycling, hiking, etc.

courtrage

02-08-2006, 06:14 PM

i seem to be heel pain free today :-) yesterday before and after playing i did these calf stretches a friend recommended (he had heel spurs/pain and the dr told him to do this)....now walking around at work i have less issues...
face a wall with your feet one behind the other (like walking a tightrope) a decent distance apart. put your hands on the wall and lean forward like doing a pushup while keeping your back leg straight and do 10 each side..then do it with your back leg bent...i got a real good stretch from that..i use do a similar way but never got quite teh stretch as i did when i did it this way...

jmh

03-06-2006, 11:23 AM

Marius_Hancu

03-06-2006, 12:10 PM

I've gotten over my general recovery period for PF, do the stretching many times a day, have the 'night sock' which I love, bought graphite inserts so my arch would stay in place-normal arch however, and am really wanting some recommendations from women and what they think on the shoe issue..I like NB 1001's, don't really care for Nike's because of the tighter fit at the toe..I'm really wanting to get back out there like before, and go full force..I just know right now that alot of times in the am (even after stretching), it's painful..

if you have pain in the AM, that's a bad sign

NB 800 killed my heel for 1.5 years
recommend switching to Wilson, they are wider than Nikes
both Nikes Air Oscillates and Wilson 710/850cc have been very good for me

perform the shoe flexibility test which is described in my signature here:

Great fitness sites
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=33800
Heel Pain section

paulfreda

03-14-2006, 03:05 AM

Never saw this thread before.
I had a bad case of PF.
What cured it for me was to take 3 weeks off to clear the pain (most awful in the morning) . Then I bought tennis shoes 2 sizes too large (13s) and filled in as many Dr Schol's gels and foam pad combinations as possible. It was very awkward walking and running at first as it felt like I had boxes on my feet. But eventually I got used to it and have never had any problems since.
The cushion effect worked for me.
Just My Experience.
Cheers to all.

Marius_Hancu

03-14-2006, 03:21 AM

I had a bad case of PF.

What cured it for me was to take 3 weeks off to clear the pain (most awful in the morning) . Then I bought tennis shoes 2 sizes too large (13s) and filled in as many Dr Schol's gels and foam pad combinations as possible. It was very awkward walking and running at first as it felt like I had boxes on my feet. But eventually I got used to it and have never had any problems since.

The cushion effect worked for me.

Do you mean, you placed those cushions AT THE HEEL, behind it?

That's what I tried when I had it, didn't quite work for me: I placed there some Scholl rubber cushions which had a hole in the center, in order to reduce the pressure on the heel point.
And that, in shoes 2 sizes bigger.

I really had to change the shoe make; perhaps because I tried the trick you mentioned with shoes of the same make (NB800) which caused me PF in the first place, because the weren't flexible.

paulfreda

03-15-2006, 01:13 AM

Do you mean, you placed those cushions AT THE HEEL, behind it?
-------------------

No, I placed the cushions in the full length of the shoe.
I was able to get about 3 in (2 gel, 1 foam) and the soft feel seemed to work to keep the problem from coming back. I was playing 3 hrs/day for 5 days a week at the time.
I still have them in there (refreshed with new pads every 6-9 months or so) and using a size 13 shoe.