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View Full Version : Murray is 4-0 against Djokovic on "fast" hardcourts


papertank
09-09-2012, 07:00 PM
Every victory Djokovic has over Murray on hardcourts has been at either the Australian Open, Indian Wells or Miami. Djokovic has never beaten him at Dubai, Canada or Cincy, and they have never played at the USO. It's not a game changing statistic, as Djokovic still leads the overall h2h 8-6, but it's definitely something to take into account for those who say Murray has no chance. This is definitely the best chance he's had in a grand slam final coming in. If this match was not a slam final, I would easily favor Murray.

Hawkeye7
09-09-2012, 07:31 PM
It's 4-1 actually. Djokovic won in Madrid in 2006 (used to be a hard court).

DoubleDeuce
09-09-2012, 07:36 PM
Who says Murray has no chance? If you are there come forward and explain how.

Djok can go from one extreme to other, and yes Murray does that too. I agree with JMc that Djok is slight favorite, and that leaves lots of chance for Murray.
I predict that Mur loses the first set and then goes on to win in 4.

mistik
09-09-2012, 07:37 PM
Since Ashe is slower than Rod Laver Arena this year,it is going to be djoko in straight sets.

SStrikerR
09-09-2012, 07:38 PM
Bad news for Murray considering AA isn't playing anywhere near "fast"

roberttennis54
09-09-2012, 07:53 PM
Bad news for Murray considering AA isn't playing anywhere near "fast"

Pretty much this.

kishnabe
09-09-2012, 07:59 PM
Sorry to say Arthur Ashe is slow as molasses. Djokovi in straights :(

90's Clay
09-09-2012, 08:06 PM
flushing is probably as slow as australia now or close to it... So Murray gets owned

yemenmocha
09-09-2012, 08:54 PM
Appreciate the due respect for real fast courts by calling the current ones "fast"

Seany
09-09-2012, 08:57 PM
Murray is not only going to win tomorrow, but he's going to crush Djokovic. Not a Murray fan, and I'm usually pretty pessimistic about his chances, on this occasion however, he seems to be playing as well as ever, Djokovic barely in 1.5 mode, I am getting the feeling Murray will steamroll him.

timnz
09-09-2012, 09:44 PM
flushing is probably as slow as australia now or close to it... So Murray gets owned

Why the slow down? The powers that be just hate volley's and attacking tennis...it must be that. Or they admire Marathon runners.... they see endurance as the most impressive element in Tennis players - beyond skill and reflexes.

Why don't the Grand Slam events continue the slow down - at their events? Why not allow double bounce on both sides of the courts? Then, we will see true endurance tennis!

Gizo
09-09-2012, 09:59 PM
It's interesting how the pendulum has swung between these two players in their head to head. Djokovic won their first 4 matches, with that tight match at Madrid in 2006, before he crushed Murray at Indian Wells and Miami in 2007 and at Monte-Carlo in 2008.

Then Murray turned it around to win their next 3 matches, beating Djokovic at Toronto in 2008 and then a week later at Cincinnati to win his first masters series title, and again in the 2009 Miami final.

From 2011 they split the wins in their last 7 matches pretty evenly, with 4 wins for Djokovic and 3 for Murray, with them almost taking it in turns to beat each other in every 2nd match. Of course Djokovic won the 2 big slam matches in Australia that mattered the most.

dafinch
09-09-2012, 10:58 PM
Murray is a choking dog, especially when it comes to Slam finals, as his 1-12 record in sets played there attests(not to mention 0-4). He needed a tornado with winds that muffled Bird Brain's big serve (not to mention lack of heart, a trait Murray himself shares) to win in 4 fairly tight sets. He ain't winnin' JACK...

kalyan4fedever
09-09-2012, 11:03 PM
If the fm is slow why dont we talk about the upcoming AO. I am guessing it will be probably slow than clay.

Russeljones
09-09-2012, 11:09 PM
Every victory Djokovic has over Murray on hardcourts has been at either the Australian Open, Indian Wells or Miami. Djokovic has never beaten him at Dubai, Canada or Cincy, and they have never played at the USO. It's not a game changing statistic, as Djokovic still leads the overall h2h 8-6, but it's definitely something to take into account for those who say Murray has no chance. This is definitely the best chance he's had in a grand slam final coming in. If this match was not a slam final, I would easily favor Murray.

You easily need a couple of pointers.

1st. The final will be played on something that only looks the colour of a fast court. 2nd. Djokovic doesn't care about his h2h in best of 3 sets vs Murray, he is about winning Grand Slams tournaments.

He didn't have to play Djokovic, Nadal or Federer on way to the final. This is the best chance he's got. This part you got right :) Will we see the day when he is the favourite in a Grand Slam final? Only time will tell.

Laurie
09-10-2012, 02:26 AM
Unfortunately I wouldn't call this present Ashe court "fast", therefore I have to make Djokovic favourite for this match.

Feather
09-10-2012, 02:38 AM
Every victory Djokovic has over Murray on hardcourts has been at either the Australian Open, Indian Wells or Miami. Djokovic has never beaten him at Dubai, Canada or Cincy, and they have never played at the USO. It's not a game changing statistic, as Djokovic still leads the overall h2h 8-6, but it's definitely something to take into account for those who say Murray has no chance. This is definitely the best chance he's had in a grand slam final coming in. If this match was not a slam final, I would easily favor Murray.

Since when Canada is a fast hard court? US Open is not that fast either

Fedex
09-10-2012, 03:58 AM
Every victory Djokovic has over Murray on hardcourts has been at either the Australian Open, Indian Wells or Miami. Djokovic has never beaten him at Dubai, Canada or Cincy, and they have never played at the USO. It's not a game changing statistic, as Djokovic still leads the overall h2h 8-6, but it's definitely something to take into account for those who say Murray has no chance. This is definitely the best chance he's had in a grand slam final coming in. If this match was not a slam final, I would easily favor Murray.

Agree with your point about Murray's best form on fast hard.
He's not just gubbed Djokovic on this surface.
Federer and Nadal have also been victims.
Straight setting them back to back at Toronto which, contrary to the last poster, is fast.
Also beating Federer 6-2 6-3 at Shanghai. Bagelling Nadal at Tokyo.
All fast.
There's just one slight glitch with your logic.
Unfortunately for Murray, Arthur Ashe is slow as mud.

tennisMVP
09-10-2012, 04:46 AM
Murray is the likely winner of the 2012 US Open, in my opinion. He is simply a better player than Djokovic right now.

DRII
09-10-2012, 05:30 AM
Bad news for Murray considering AA isn't playing anywhere near "fast"


its playing faster than last year...

last year was horribly slow!

Evan77
09-10-2012, 06:24 AM
Murray is the likely winner of the 2012 US Open, in my opinion. He is simply a better player than Djokovic right now.
check your facts and your eyes before you post something like this, please.

Djokovic spent 11 hours on the court, Murray 16 (that's 5 hours more btw).
W/UE: Djokovic +85, Murray +72
sets lost: Djokovic 1, Murray 3
break points converted: Djokovic 57%, Murray 40%

Do you understand these numbers? I guess not. so please explain to me how is Murray 'right now' a better player? Enlighten me?

Hawkeye7
09-10-2012, 06:26 AM
It's still a mid-paced hard court. So it actually does favour Murray. But this is a slam final... You never know with Andy. If he starts slowly, he will be screwed.

Djokovic spent 11 hours on the court, Murray 16 (that's 5 hours more btw).
W/UE: Djokovic +85, Murray +72
sets lost: Djokovic 1, Murray 3
break points converted: Djokovic 57%, Murray 40%

Do you understand these numbers? I guess not.

Murray has way better numbers on returns though and had more break points. Weak argument. If he only converts 10% of break points but gets 100 opportunities, that's still good enough. ;)

But Djokovic's serve stats have been better so far in this tournament. Doesn't change the fact that Murray is the best returner of serve. Numbers don't lie.

Fedex
09-10-2012, 06:29 AM
check your facts and your eyes before you post something like this, please.

Djokovic spent 11 hours on the court, Murray 16 (that's 5 hours more btw).
W/UE: Djokovic +85, Murray +72
sets lost: Djokovic 1, Murray 3
break points converted: Djokovic 57%, Murray 40%

Do you understand these numbers? I guess not. so please explain to me how is Murray 'right now' a better player? Enlighten me?

The stats aren't as simple as that though because Murray definitely had a tougher draw.

Evan77
09-10-2012, 06:37 AM
It's still a mid-paced hard court. So it actually does favour Murray. But this is a slam final... You never know with Andy. If he starts slowly, he will be screwed.



Murray has way better numbers on returns though and had more break points. Weak argument. If he only converts 10% of break points but gets 100 opportunities, that's still good enough. ;)

But Djokovic's serve stats have been better so far in this tournament. Doesn't change the fact that Murray is the best returner of serve. Numbers don't lie.
first of all I think this match is 50/50. but when you say something like Murray is a better player right now let us know why and how. no he is not.

as for ROS, it's not just putting the ball back in court, it's also what you do with it. Murray tends to be too passive and monballs too much. Unlike Murray, Djokovic returns with an interest and make you pay for it.

JMac, Agassi, Sampras think that Djokovic is best returner they've ever seen. I guess they know more than you and I.

no, it's not all about the stats, but do tell a story.

Nostradamus
09-10-2012, 06:39 AM
It's 4-1 actually. Djokovic won in Madrid in 2006 (used to be a hard court).

yea but that was indoors. Andy is superior on fast outdoor surface where wind and sun comes into play

Hawkeye7
09-10-2012, 06:42 AM
I didn't say Murray is the better player. I said faster or mid-paced hard courts favour Murray. As the H2H indicates. All of Djokovic's hard court wins over Murray have come on slow courts, except for the one match in Madrid in 2006. The slower the court the more time the opponent has to get to the shots. That's one of the reasons why Andy is not great on clay. Slower courts also have a higher bounce a little like clay (Djokovic's 2nd best surface). Yes, I know he won Wimbledon, but that's a different story.

Murray has WON more return points. Djokovic is not even 2nd or 3rd in those statistics at this USO.

Just for the record, I still think Djokovic is the favourite.

DRII
09-10-2012, 07:11 AM
The two play more alike than any other top players. Nole has greater racquet head speed, Murray a bigger hitting pocket. Nole greater foot speed, Murray better anticipation.

I think Murray takes it; their match in Cincy (i think it was Cincy) is the best indicator.

Nole's forehand has been a little off this year, while Murray's has been better...

Hawkeye7
09-10-2012, 07:22 AM
No. The match in Dubai is the better indicator as it is more recent and no one retired.

But as we have witnessed many times before, BO3 and BO5 are not the same. Upsets in smaller tournaments are far more frequent and that can't be a coincidence.

Evan77
09-10-2012, 07:26 AM
Hawkeye7, I challenged your opinion about who is a better player at the moment. We are talking about the USO here.

I backed up my opinion with some stats, and then you switched you story talking about how Murray is better on fast/mid fast HC. Sorry, but he is NOT. Murray can beat all top players in best of 3 regardless of how slow/fast the courts are (except clay of course).

Now, I can go and on and on with Djokovic 2009/10 losing some of those matches to Murray when he switched his racket, when he couldn't simply buy a first serve, making like 20 DF per match etc. Todd Martin screwing up completely Novak's serve motion etc.

Where was Murray in Cinci this year? Sorry, but I like talking facts. Is the AO mid fast or slow or slow/fast to you, lol?

RF20Lennon
09-10-2012, 07:31 AM
Since Ashe is slower than Rod Laver Arena this year,it is going to be djoko in straight sets.

In what universe??? Plexicushion is a lot slower than deco turf!! Plus sun will be out today

RF20Lennon
09-10-2012, 07:33 AM
With that joke draw of nole he better have got those stats

Evan77
09-10-2012, 07:34 AM
The two play more alike than any other top players. Nole has greater racquet head speed, Murray a bigger hitting pocket. Nole greater foot speed, Murray better anticipation.

I think Murray takes it; their match in Cincy (i think it was Cincy) is the best indicator.

Nole's forehand has been a little off this year, while Murray's has been better...
Are you talking about Cinci 2009, lol? Djoko playing with allergies, super hot weather, like 40 degrees or something like that, playing utter crap ... plus Ash is nothing like Cinci CC. Ash is much slower. oh boy, some you guys. I'm scratching my head.

then you bring FH here. I agree that Murray's FH looks much better but Djoko is much better in that department.

Govnor
09-10-2012, 07:35 AM
Should be a great match. I give the edge to Djoker, but it's only a slight one.

Evan77
09-10-2012, 07:36 AM
With that joke draw of nole he better have got those stats
excuse me, and Murray had a tough draw, lol. please man.

DRII
09-10-2012, 07:38 AM
Are you talking about Cinci 2009, lol? Djoko playing with allergies, super hot weather, like 40 degrees or something like that, playing utter crap ... plus Ash is nothing like Cinci CC. Ash is much slower. oh boy, some you guys. I'm scratching my head.

then you bring FH here. I agree that Murray's FH looks much better but Djoko is much better in that department.

When did they last play on a hard court? I thought it was Cincy...

DRII
09-10-2012, 07:39 AM
Sorry my bad...

I was thinking about their Olympic match at Wimbledon...

allergy medicine, LOL...

Magnetite
09-10-2012, 07:40 AM
It's too close to call. Murray played better at Wimbledon and the Olympics, but Djokovic is a multiple grand slam winner.

I'm personally looking for Murray to finally break through and win a major, but if Djokovic plays like he did against Del Potro, it's going to be a tall order.

RF20Lennon
09-10-2012, 07:42 AM
excuse me, and Murray had a tough draw, lol. please man.

A lot tougher than djokovic!! The biggest threat djokovic had was ferrer!! Please!

RF20Lennon
09-10-2012, 07:43 AM
Also they played in Dubai this year which Murray won but Dubai has the fastest court on the whole tour!

Evan77
09-10-2012, 07:48 AM
When did they last play on a hard court? I thought it was Cincy...
my apologies, you are right. Last time they played at Cinci was last year. the only thing is Djokovic retired there because he was injured.

still I stand by everything else I said.

Evan77
09-10-2012, 07:49 AM
A lot tougher than djokovic!! The biggest threat djokovic had was ferrer!! Please!
Ferrer is a bigger threat on HC than Del Potro? like really? :shock:

RF20Lennon
09-10-2012, 07:49 AM
When did they last play on a hard court? I thought it was Cincy...

Nope Dubai this year!! 2009 djokovic lost 6-1 7-5 in the final to fed at Cincy he played Andy last year!

RF20Lennon
09-10-2012, 07:50 AM
Ferrer is a bigger threat on HC than Del Potro? like really? :shock:

Well at least ferrer took a set off him what did delpo do?

Hawkeye7
09-10-2012, 07:51 AM
Hawkeye7, I challenged your opinion about who is a better player at the moment. We are talking about the USO here.

I backed up my opinion with some stats, and then you switched you story talking about how Murray is better on fast/mid fast HC. Sorry, but he is NOT. Murray can beat all top players in best of 3 regardless of how slow/fast the courts are (except clay of course).

Now, I can go and on and on with Djokovic 2009/10 losing some of those matches to Murray when he switched his racket, when he couldn't simply buy a first serve, making like 20 DF per match etc. Todd Martin screwing up completely Novak's serve motion etc.

Where was Murray in Cinci this year? Sorry, but I like talking facts. Is the AO mid fast or slow or slow/fast to you, lol?

Of course he CAN. But he is more likely to when the conditions are favouring him. ;) I never said Murray is a better fast hard court player than Djokovic. Obviously Djokovic's results have been better. But this is a match-up issue. Andy is stronger on fast hard courts in matches against Djokovic.

Murray sucked in Cincy, but he didn't get any preparation due to that knee injury. Andy won Cincy twice already before that. Surely he is allowed to screw up once in awhile? His winning percentage is over 80% at Wimbledon and the US Open (fast(er) courts). Coincidence? I think not.

The AO are slow + high bounce = Djokovic's best surface. I have a surface list somewhere. I'll go look for it.

DRII
09-10-2012, 07:51 AM
my apologies, you are right. Last time they played at Cinci was last year. the only thing is Djokovic retired there because he was injured.

still I stand by everything else I said.

No, its cool, I wasn't even thinking about that match regarding my perdiction...

I give the slight advantage to Murray. He's hungrier and knows Nole's game.

dominikk1985
09-10-2012, 07:51 AM
murray has beaten all 3 quite a few times, even federer. but he has never done it in a major so those masters wins don't mean a lot.

he needs to prove he can beat fed/nadal/novak over 3 sets in a major.

Evan77
09-10-2012, 07:55 AM
Of course he CAN. But he is more likely to when the conditions are favouring him. ;) I never said Murray is a better fast hard court player than Djokovic. Obviously Djokovic's results have been much better. But this is a match-up issue. Andy is stronger on fast hard courts in matches against Djokovic.

Murray sucked in Cincy, but he didn't get any preparation due to that knee injury. But Andy won Cincy twice already before that.

The AO are slow + high bounce = Djokovic's best surface. I have a surface list somewhere. I'll go look for it.
bud, it's all good. but this is the USO, and we are all bubbling about Cinci and Dubai and just derailing this thread completely, myself included :oops:.

Hawkeye7
09-10-2012, 08:02 AM
I know. I said as much. ;) BO5 is a totally different story. Which is why I repeatedly said Djokovic is the favourite regardless of those results. Plus, a slam final provides a different kind of pressure.

Murray doesn't need to prove he can beat Nadal in BO5. He has done it twice already. On hard courts btw.

May the best man win today.

Evan77
09-10-2012, 08:04 AM
Well at least ferrer took a set off him what did delpo do?
not sure what your point is here. Ferrer took a set. OK, let's use your logic here.

Didn't Benneteau take 2 sets from Fed and almost took him down at Wimbledon? Didn't Malisse take a set from your God? Who won W? What's the big deal? oh, Novak lost a set, uh ah.

double standards my friends. I would bet my house that if Del Potro and Ferrer met at the USO, DP would destroy Ferrer in 3 easy sets btw.

Hawkeye7
09-10-2012, 08:08 AM
It basically means that the previous matches are meaningless. It's a new day. One of them could turn up and play lights out Tennis or one could have an off day... Who knows?

Fedex
09-10-2012, 08:22 AM
murray has beaten all 3 quite a few times, even federer. but he has never done it in a major so those masters wins don't mean a lot.

he needs to prove he can beat fed/nadal/novak over 3 sets in a major.

So his 2 slam wins against Nadal don't mean a lot too?
(I know you meant to say best of 5 in your last sentence)

dominikk1985
09-10-2012, 09:05 AM
So his 2 slam wins against Nadal don't mean a lot too?
(I know you meant to say best of 5 in your last sentence)

yeah best of 5.

the nadal wins are good ones of course but he has yet to beat novak and fed. and especially in a final. beating them in a masters is different from beating them in a slam final.

Fedex
09-10-2012, 09:13 AM
yeah best of 5.

the nadal wins are good ones of course but he has yet to beat novak and fed. and especially in a final. beating them in a masters is different from beating them in a slam final.

I actually meant it when I said the slam wins against Nadal mean nothing just as the slam losses against Djokovic and Federer mean nothing.
This will not affect Murray.
If Murray loses it won't be due to things that happened in the past IMO.

tennisMVP
09-10-2012, 09:46 AM
check your facts and your eyes before you post something like this, please.

Djokovic spent 11 hours on the court, Murray 16 (that's 5 hours more btw).
W/UE: Djokovic +85, Murray +72
sets lost: Djokovic 1, Murray 3
break points converted: Djokovic 57%, Murray 40%

Do you understand these numbers? I guess not. so please explain to me how is Murray 'right now' a better player? Enlighten me?

I've actually seen Djokovic and Murray play this week. So I'm able to judge. The numbers are of no use. I mean, you are aware that they are playing different opponents, right?

Evan77
09-10-2012, 10:35 AM
I've actually seen Djokovic and Murray play this week. So I'm able to judge. The numbers are of no use. I mean, you are aware that they are playing different opponents, right?
sorry, with all respect, I saw almost all their matches too and I'm able to judge too. my original post was referring to another poster and him and I are cool. not sure why you quoted me, as my post has nothing to do with you. and no, I thought they were playing same opponents, lol. whatever man.

cheers