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jackcrawford
09-09-2012, 08:55 PM
Between the two segments, about fifteen minutes. Of interest, he wishes he hadn't been stubborn and stuck with small head rackets because there is no advantage to a 90 over his new 102. He also says all recreational players should use poly in their stringbed, as at any swing speed it gives an advantage. Courier is one of the two best commentators on the pro game, an accomplished senior player as well as a former ATP #1, and his opinions on those subjects are at odds with many of the posters on these boards, but certainly carry more weight.
http://www.tennis.com/gear/2012/09/gear-talk-jim-courier-part-2/39355/#.UE1iy1F62Sq
http://www.tennis.com/gear/2012/09/gear-talk-jim-courier-part-2/39355/#.UE1iy1F62Sq

Cup8489
09-09-2012, 09:33 PM
Delete Post.

BreakPoint
09-09-2012, 10:46 PM
Between the two segments, about fifteen minutes. Of interest, he wishes he hadn't been stubborn and stuck with small head rackets because there is no advantage to a 90 over his new 102. He also says all recreational players should use poly in their stringbed, as at any swing speed it gives an advantage. Courier is one of the two best commentators on the pro game, an accomplished senior player as well as a former ATP #1, and his opinions on those subjects are at odds with many of the posters on these boards, but certainly carry more weight.
http://www.tennis.com/gear/2012/09/gear-talk-jim-courier-part-2/39355/#.UE1iy1F62Sq
http://www.tennis.com/gear/2012/09/gear-talk-jim-courier-part-2/39355/#.UE1iy1F62Sq
And that's exactly what they are, his own personal opinion.

I get no "advantage" from using poly strings. All I get is tennis elbow from them.

I also get no advantage from using 102 sq. in. racquets from my 90 sq. in. racquets. All I get from larger racquets is a loss of feel and control.

galain
09-10-2012, 12:03 AM
interesting interview - thank you for posting the links.

He certainly seems a lot more into his gear than many other pros or former players.

Sinner
09-10-2012, 01:50 AM
Good stuff...

Here's the text-portion of it!
http://www.tennis.com/gear/2012/09/nuts-and-bolts-97-jim-couriers-stories/39327/#.UE2piLLiaAp

Justin diFeliciantonio: Iíve heard that you use a special grip size. What are the details?

Jim Courier: Itís a 4 and 7/16thsóin between a 3/8ths and a 1/2. The thing is, I play with TournaGrip on my racquets, and that adds about 1/16th of an inch. What Iím looking for is a 4 and 1/2 [size], in total. And obviously, if Iím using a 4 and 1/2 handle, with the leather and TournaGrip, itíll be bigger than that.

JD: Whatís the nature of your palette?

JC: Underneath I use a custom leather grip that Roman Prokes [of RPNY Tennis] makes, and then I use TournaGrip. Itís more the Wilson shape. Itís the shape that Iíve used since I used a Wilson racquet, so I presume itís the Wilson shape.

JD: You used a pretty small Wilson Pro Staff when you were on tour. What was the weight?

JC: Youíd have to check with Roman. He has them exactly. But traditionally [on tour] Iíve played with 385 grams, all in, with string and grip. And Iíve come off of that, mostly out of the head. Roman is very good with the particulars. I just tell him what Iím looking for, and he does the work. Then I feel it, and if I like it, great; if not, we tweak it.

JD: Thatís a pretty heavy stick.

JC: Yeah, 385g, all in. Pete was like 400g, and Andre was, I think, right around where I was. Some players are a little lighter. Like Rafa now, heís in the 330s, very light. But heís got a racquet thatís hollow and very powerful. And obviously, being such a strong guy, he has unbelievable acceleration with that light frame.

JD: Did you feel very personal about your racquet when you were on tour? Your racquet, those of your opponents, is this something you paid a lot of attention to?

JC: Not really. I wasnít that concerned about it. I figured, my racquet was my racquet, and I didnít worry too much about what the other guys were playing. I was just going myopically along. Andre, in his book, said that he would ask for racquets from players to sell them for his charity. And he would sell them for his charity. But first he would hit with them for a bitótest them out just to see what his opponents were using, just to see if he was missing anything.

JD: Oh, really?

JC: Yeah, Lendl used to do the same. Lendl would get racquets, say, whatever Mac (John McEnroe) or [Jimmy] Connors were using, and he would play with them to know what their racquets felt like. So if he could exploit any weaknesses in the racquet, he would have that information.

JD: Really?

JC: Yeah, itís a whole Ďnother level, isnít it? Itís like checking out the missile defense system of your opposition.

paulorenzo
09-10-2012, 02:21 AM
Between the two segments, about fifteen minutes. Of interest, he wishes he hadn't been stubborn and stuck with small head rackets because there is no advantage to a 90 over his new 102. He also says all recreational players should use poly in their stringbed, as at any swing speed it gives an advantage. Courier is one of the two best commentators on the pro game, an accomplished senior player as well as a former ATP #1, and his opinions on those subjects are at odds with many of the posters on these boards, but certainly carry more weight.
http://www.tennis.com/gear/2012/09/gear-talk-jim-courier-part-2/39355/#.UE1iy1F62Sq
http://www.tennis.com/gear/2012/09/gear-talk-jim-courier-part-2/39355/#.UE1iy1F62Sq

here's part 1. both links in the OP are the same. great find jackcrawford.

http://www.tennis.com/gear/2012/09/gear-talk-jim-courier-part-1/39342/#.UE2vpe0TPZk

paulorenzo
09-10-2012, 02:25 AM
btw, the editor/interviewer's name first read as Deliciano to me. :)

realplayer
09-10-2012, 04:15 AM
Jim Courier says Nadal plays with a very headlight racket compared to the norm because he needs to create head acceleration to do what he does and Federer on the contrary has a heavier racket in the head because he is driving the ball more through the court and he is an allcourt player so people at home can take a lesson from that.

Ok, can anybody explain what Jim is saying here cause Nadal has a racket with a much more higher swingweight(360 plus) than Federer(330 plus) and Federer has a much heavier and much more headlight racket than Nadal.

This sounds like the opposite of what Jim is describing??!!

MAXXply
09-10-2012, 04:16 AM
JC: Lendl would get racquets, say, whatever Mac (John McEnroe) or [Jimmy] Connors were using, and he would play with them to know what their racquets felt like. So if he could exploit any weaknesses in the racquet, he would have that information.

JD: Really?

JC: Yeah, itís a whole Ďnother level, isnít it? Itís like checking out the missile defense system of your opposition.


I like Courier's ability to throw in expressive turns of phrase like the bolded example above. He does enliven the commentary booth and has grown on me in recent years.

chippy17
09-10-2012, 05:21 AM
Jim Courier says Nadal plays with a very headlight racket compared to the norm because he needs to create head acceleration to do what he does and Federer on the contrary has a heavier racket in the head because he is driving the ball more through the court and he is an allcourt player so people at home can take a lesson from that.

Ok, can anybody explain what Jim is saying here cause Nadal has a racket with a much more higher swingweight(360 plus) than Federer(330 plus) and Federer has a much heavier and much more headlight racket than Nadal.

This sounds like the opposite of what Jim is describing??!!

I would say he got it the wrong way round but I am an amateur...

maxpotapov
09-10-2012, 06:07 AM
He also says all recreational players should use poly in their stringbed, as at any swing speed it gives an advantage.

Did he also mention how often they need to restring? Sounds like a bad advice to players who do not change their strings until they break and don't break poly strings ever.

ramos77
09-10-2012, 06:20 AM
he has red hair..

close thread

Nostradamus
09-10-2012, 06:47 AM
This guy is Genius. So All amateurs should use poly. I did not know that. i thougth it was mostly only for guys that likes to use lots topspin on their shots.

Which poly does courier use ?

pug
09-10-2012, 07:00 AM
Excellent interview.

T21D
09-10-2012, 08:10 AM
Great interview and input.

bjsnider
09-10-2012, 08:36 AM
I watched this when it was posted on tennis.com, and I thought Courier's statement that he tells rec players to use poly is strange. The stuff dies after a few hours, and is hard on the arms. He should be telling people to use gut, dammit.

I'm also not sure I agree that the tennis is better now than it was, say, in the 70s. Those guys were surgeons. The racquets were scalpels. They weren't necessarily the fastest, fittest humans on earth by four thousand orders or magnitude, like today, but they didn't have to be.

The problem Jim identified, games over too fast, short rallies, happened after the end of the dead-ball era, and as a result of the abandonment of traditional equipment. So the solution was to also abandon traditional string?

There's a reason pickle ball has become so popular -- pickle ball courts are replacing tennis courts around here -- and I think if you look at how fast and heavy the ball is these days, I think you might have the reason.

Wilander Fan
09-10-2012, 09:21 AM
Jim Courier says Nadal plays with a very headlight racket compared to the norm because he needs to create head acceleration to do what he does and Federer on the contrary has a heavier racket in the head because he is driving the ball more through the court and he is an allcourt player so people at home can take a lesson from that.

Ok, can anybody explain what Jim is saying here cause Nadal has a racket with a much more higher swingweight(360 plus) than Federer(330 plus) and Federer has a much heavier and much more headlight racket than Nadal.

This sounds like the opposite of what Jim is describing??!!

I am going to agree with Jim in that Nadal's racket is headlight. Ive played with the stock APDs and they are extraordinary headlight. If you lead them up, it just reduces swingspeed so its not a big improvement...still Nadal probably does lead them up somewhat or he would be push around all over the courts on returns.

realplayer
09-10-2012, 09:46 AM
I am going to agree with Jim in that Nadal's racket is headlight. Ive played with the stock APDs and they are extraordinary headlight. If you lead them up, it just reduces swingspeed so its not a big improvement...still Nadal probably does lead them up somewhat or he would be push around all over the courts on returns.

These are the specs of Nadal and Federer. Nadal is not playing a headlight racket with an almost even balance and an extreme high swingweight!!

Nadal = 335/33,8/365 sw

Federer = 360.5/31.6/330 sw

Nostradamus
09-10-2012, 10:12 AM
These are the specs of Nadal and Federer. Nadal is not playing a headlight racket with an almost even balance and an extreme high swingweight!!

Nadal = 335/33,8/365 sw

Federer = 360.5/31.6/330 sw

335 is pretty low for a top tour level player. these guys do so much training that even at SW of 350, i was told racket feels like feather to them. Their Core and shoulder strength is very high. Us amateurs will never know that kind of strength and conditioning.

At 335, the racket must feel like ping pong paddle to nadal

realplayer
09-10-2012, 10:29 AM
335 is pretty low for a top tour level player. these guys do so much training that even at SW of 350, i was told racket feels like feather to them. Their Core and shoulder strength is very high. Us amateurs will never know that kind of strength and conditioning.

At 335, the racket must feel like ping pong paddle to nadal

weight is nothing. swingweight counts. Point is that Nadals racket is not headlight. period.

Nostradamus
09-10-2012, 10:40 AM
weight is nothing. swingweight counts. Point is that Nadals racket is not headlight. period.

i got that in reverse. roger has a super low SW. i was wrong, i thought he was like pete sampras and had super heavy racket

paulorenzo
09-10-2012, 11:00 AM
I watched this when it was posted on tennis.com, and I thought Courier's statement that he tells rec players to use poly is strange. The stuff dies after a few hours, and is hard on the arms. He should be telling people to use gut, dammit.



i dont think he's recommending anyone who uses gut to switch to a full bed of poly. he goes on to say he doesn't like using a full bed of poly since it makes finishing a point harder with his already spinny strokes. he instead uses a cheap nylon/synthetic in the mains with a co-poly cross which is a pretty comfortable setup, IMO.

BreakPoint
09-10-2012, 11:34 AM
335 is pretty low for a top tour level player. these guys do so much training that even at SW of 350, i was told racket feels like feather to them. Their Core and shoulder strength is very high. Us amateurs will never know that kind of strength and conditioning.

At 335, the racket must feel like ping pong paddle to Nadal
Well, that would explain why Nadal plays tennis like it was ping pong. :shock:

He uses those "ping pong-like" forehand topspin strokes. Wasn't Uncle Toni a former ping pong champ or something?

BreakPoint
09-10-2012, 11:42 AM
JC: Yeah, 385g, all in. Pete was like 400g, and Andre was, I think, right around where I was. Some players are a little lighter. Like Rafa now, heís in the 330s, very light. But heís got a racquet thatís hollow and very powerful. And obviously, being such a strong guy, he has unbelievable acceleration with that light frame.

I guess that proves that a heavier racquet is superior to a lighter one since Sampras used to beat both Courier and Agassi on a regular basis. :wink: LOL

paulorenzo
09-10-2012, 11:56 AM
glad that's cleared up, all this time i thought sampras was just the better player. now to look for some lead tape.

BreakPoint
09-10-2012, 12:02 PM
glad that's cleared up, all this time i thought sampras was just the better player. now to look for some lead tape.
Maybe Sampras was the better player because he was more able to handle a heavier racquet? :)

TennisCJC
09-10-2012, 12:03 PM
I think Jim's assessment of Roger and Rafa's rackets are wrong. I also think the specs for Rog and Raf in this thread are not quite right.

Rafa is HL but only 2-4 points HL, with static weight under 12 oz and SW in the 350-360 range.

Roger is HL but around 6-8 points HL, with static weight around 364 grams, and SW in the 350-360 range. I have seen several analysis of Roger's racket and never saw a 330 SW. See Greg Raven's analysis and other TW threads.

I agree with Jim that good 3.5+ level and above players can benefit from poly if they use it wisely. My opinion is using poly as a cross is good for most of us if you want more directional control, a touch more spin, and far less string movement. You will need to change strings every 10-20 hours. If you have a really fast swing or a really powerful tweener style racket than using poly mains with a synthetic cross is fine for rec players.

I was last rated 4.0, was rated 4.5 about 2 decades ago and played 5.0 USTA league 30 years ago and won about 30-40% of matches but official ranking never went to 5.0. I like playing with poly strings for the reasons cited above.

CDestroyer
09-10-2012, 12:09 PM
I am going to agree with Jim in that Nadal\'s racket is headlight. Ive played with the stock APDs and they are extraordinary headlight. If you lead them up, it just reduces swingspeed so its not a big improvement...still Nadal probably does lead them up somewhat or he would be push around all over the courts on returns.

You and Jim are wrong. Nadals racquets are only 2 points head light. Courier should have said they are light weight(static weight) but 2 points is not very head light at all.

RF20Lennon
09-10-2012, 12:14 PM
Jim Courier says Nadal plays with a very headlight racket compared to the norm because he needs to create head acceleration to do what he does and Federer on the contrary has a heavier racket in the head because he is driving the ball more through the court and he is an allcourt player so people at home can take a lesson from that.

Ok, can anybody explain what Jim is saying here cause Nadal has a racket with a much more higher swingweight(360 plus) than Federer(330 plus) and Federer has a much heavier and much more headlight racket than Nadal.

This sounds like the opposite of what Jim is describing??!!

Nadal switched to a heavier one this year long after the quote

realplayer
09-10-2012, 12:17 PM
I think Jim's assessment of Roger and Rafa's rackets are wrong. I also think the specs for Rog and Raf in this thread are not quite right.

Rafa is HL but only 2-4 points HL, with static weight under 12 oz and SW in the 350-360 range.

Roger is HL but around 6-8 points HL, with static weight around 364 grams, and SW in the 350-360 range. I have seen several analysis of Roger's racket and never saw a 330 SW. See Greg Raven's analysis and other TW threads.

I agree with Jim that good 3.5+ level and above players can benefit from poly if they use it wisely. My opinion is using poly as a cross is good for most of us if you want more directional control, a touch more spin, and far less string movement. You will need to change strings every 10-20 hours. If you have a really fast swing or a really powerful tweener style racket than using poly mains with a synthetic cross is fine for rec players.

I was last rated 4.0, was rated 4.5 about 2 decades ago and played 5.0 USTA league 30 years ago and won about 30-40% of matches but official ranking never went to 5.0. I like playing with poly strings for the reasons cited above.

Hi TennisCJC

Here is the link from Greg Raven's website. He has measured two of Federer's rackets.
The specs are accurate.

http://www.hdtennis.com/grs/toc_information.html

ben123
09-10-2012, 12:26 PM
Hi TennisCJC

Here is the link from Greg Raven's website. He has measured two of Federer's rackets.
The specs are accurate.

http://www.hdtennis.com/grs/toc_information.html

lol... specs got measured unstrung, ever thought about this? smart guy...

n btw i do not trust this site to 100%. why should i when there is a thread with real photos in this forum? that guy bought nadals/djokers/federers and other racquets.. and he showed with pics how he measured the specs etc..

nadals weight is around 340+ now he said himself he added 3 gram at the top to the beginning of this season. swingweight will be around 360
federers weight is always 364,2g with swingweight around 355
etc etc blabla

Shangri La
09-10-2012, 12:33 PM
I think Courier meant Nadal's racquet is light in weight, not headlight. Then all his comments are in line with what's agreed here on the boards.

Setmatch45
09-10-2012, 12:40 PM
No doubt that JC knows his stuff and he is a nice guy as well I played in a pro-am he did. As far as poly being good for everyone we know that can't be. But overall a good inteerview.

realplayer
09-10-2012, 12:52 PM
....................

realplayer
09-10-2012, 01:06 PM
lol... specs got measured unstrung, ever thought about this? smart guy...

n btw i do not trust this site to 100%. why should i when there is a thread with real photos in this forum? that guy bought nadals/djokers/federers and other racquets.. and he showed with pics how he measured the specs etc..

nadals weight is around 340+ now he said himself he added 3 gram at the top to the beginning of this season. swingweight will be around 360
federers weight is always 364,2g with swingweight around 355
etc etc blabla

Well Einstein, Maybe you should take a look again as it is definitely measured strung and I included the three grams of Nadal.

Here is another thread about the guy that you were talking about. He has the original and real racket of Federer.

The weight is 364 STRUNG!!!!!!!!!

Check post #173

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=347886
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...=347886&page=9

drakulie
09-10-2012, 07:35 PM
Love Courier, but he is dead wrong.

I remember when Navratilova and Mcenore were commenting on the strings todays players use. They stated that the poly used today, is much more powerful than the natural gut they used. :roll: Clueless.

Fact is, most players and even commentators know ***** about equipment. Nothing, zero, squat. They have no idea how poly could *enhance* spin, if in fact the players swings hard enough to get the benefit, which most recreational players can't.

What ends up happening is they get less power, less spin, less comfort. To add, they unlike pros, don't re-string every day, so end up playing with a dead string.

To give you an example of how often players re-string, Courier, who doesn't even play on tour anymore, had me re-string his frame 3 times for a champions series match (gosen og micro in mains, alu power in crosses).

jackcrawford
09-10-2012, 07:36 PM
Maybe Sampras was the better player because he was more able to handle a heavier racquet? :)Even Pete has joined the modern world, now using a 98 and poly:)

sruckauf
09-10-2012, 08:54 PM
Courier is an ex-pro. You can't get much higher in skill set than a guy like him in his prime, and is still active and successful in post-pro tennis. He was able to wield and use a racquet with one of the smallest heads ever at the top of men's tennis, and able to generate incredible racquet head speed. He swung and met the ball like a bat and baseball, remember? Any idea how hard that is? But I'm getting off the point.

My point is, that means with an 85 sq. in. head he was able to nail the sweet spot over and over and over. So to a guy like him, poly makes complete sense. As long as you hit the sweet spot almost all the time, have awesome hand-eye coordination, and can generate the racquet head speed necessary to get the benefits of poly, ya do it at all levels.

The trouble is, the rest of the world doesn't hit the sweet spot all the time, even with 100 sq. in. heads.

Why would anyone take his opinion on what's good or usable for consumer level tennis? He probably means well, touting the obvious benefits of poly, but come on.

[This has nothing to do with my own opinion of poly, which I may or may not support. I'm just commenting on his value of opinion on equipment for consumer level tennis of 2.0 - 4.0, which probably accounts for most of the regular joe tennis world. If you're an accomplished 4.5+ level player, the benefits of poly in full or hybrid are obvious, if your body can handle it long term.]

BreakPoint
09-11-2012, 01:21 AM
Even Pete has joined the modern world, now using a 98 and poly:)
No wonder Sampras hasn't won a Slam since he switched to the bigger racquet. :shock:

BreakPoint
09-11-2012, 01:37 AM
Courier is an ex-pro. You can't get much higher in skill set than a guy like him in his prime, and is still active and successful in post-pro tennis. He was able to wield and use a racquet with one of the smallest heads ever at the top of men's tennis, and able to generate incredible racquet head speed. He swung and met the ball like a bat and baseball, remember? Any idea how hard that is? But I'm getting off the point.

My point is, that means with an 85 sq. in. head he was able to nail the sweet spot over and over and over. So to a guy like him, poly makes complete sense. As long as you hit the sweet spot almost all the time, have awesome hand-eye coordination, and can generate the racquet head speed necessary to get the benefits of poly, ya do it at all levels.

Hmmm.....I guess you never saw Laver, Rosewall, Smith, Nastase, Ashe, Borg, Connors, McEnroe, etc. at the top of men's tennis with their 65 sq. in. racquets?

Dave M
09-11-2012, 02:49 AM
A guy who is sponsored by a company that gives him a 102 inch racquet and poly strings to use and advertise says we should use a 102" racquet and poly strings.....Must be true.

YesTennis
09-11-2012, 05:53 AM
Love Courier, but he is dead wrong.

I remember when Navratilova and Mcenore were commenting on the strings todays players use. They stated that the poly used today, is much more powerful than the natural gut they used. :roll: Clueless.

Fact is, most players and even commentators know ***** about equipment. Nothing, zero, squat. They have no idea how poly could *enhance* spin, if in fact the players swings hard enough to get the benefit, which most recreational players can't.

What ends up happening is they get less power, less spin, less comfort. To add, they unlike pros, don't re-string every day, so end up playing with a dead string.

To give you an example of how often players re-string, Courier, who doesn't even play on tour anymore, had me re-string his frame 3 times for a champions series match (gosen og micro in mains, alu power in crosses).

drakulie- based on your information, could you make a general string recommendation for a 3.5-4.0 player?

mikeler
09-11-2012, 06:07 AM
Love Courier, but he is dead wrong.

I remember when Navratilova and Mcenore were commenting on the strings todays players use. They stated that the poly used today, is much more powerful than the natural gut they used. :roll: Clueless.

Fact is, most players and even commentators know ***** about equipment. Nothing, zero, squat. They have no idea how poly could *enhance* spin, if in fact the players swings hard enough to get the benefit, which most recreational players can't.

What ends up happening is they get less power, less spin, less comfort. To add, they unlike pros, don't re-string every day, so end up playing with a dead string.

To give you an example of how often players re-string, Courier, who doesn't even play on tour anymore, had me re-string his frame 3 times for a champions series match (gosen og micro in mains, alu power in crosses).


Years ago I listened to Johnny Mac talking about Rafa saying you should go with the lightest racket possible. I listened to this advice and that led to my first elbow injury. I won't listen to the playing pros anymore for equipment advice.

drakulie
09-11-2012, 06:23 AM
drakulie- based on your information, could you make a general string recommendation for a 3.5-4.0 player?

I you are not a string breaker, then natural gut. If that is too expensive a proposition, then any multi. There are a lot of good ones out there:

NXT
NXT TOUR
Sensation
Xcel,
x-1 biphase
xR1
Pro Supex Maxim Touch
Genesis Explosion
Premier LT


Good luck!

Years ago I listened to Johnny Mac talking about Rafa saying you should go with the lightest racket possible. I listened to this advice and that led to my first elbow injury. I won't listen to the playing pros anymore for equipment advice.

Unfortunately, and ironically, they simply give bad advice/information about equipment vs good info. Same goes for most teaching pros.

samster
09-11-2012, 06:32 AM
Between the two segments, about fifteen minutes. Of interest, he wishes he hadn't been stubborn and stuck with small head rackets because there is no advantage to a 90 over his new 102. He also says all recreational players should use poly in their stringbed, as at any swing speed it gives an advantage. Courier is one of the two best commentators on the pro game, an accomplished senior player as well as a former ATP #1, and his opinions on those subjects are at odds with many of the posters on these boards, but certainly carry more weight.
http://www.tennis.com/gear/2012/09/gear-talk-jim-courier-part-2/39355/#.UE1iy1F62Sq
http://www.tennis.com/gear/2012/09/gear-talk-jim-courier-part-2/39355/#.UE1iy1F62Sq

So recreational players can get tennis elbows?

I agree with drakulie. Recreational players have no business using polyester strings.

realplayer
09-11-2012, 06:38 AM
I you are not a string breaker, then natural gut. If that is too expensive a proposition, then any multi. There are a lot of good ones out there:

NXT
NXT TOUR
Sensation
Xcel,
x-1 biphase
xR1
Pro Supex Maxim Touch
Genesis Explosion
Premier LT


Good luck!



Unfortunately, and ironically, they simply give bad advice/information about equipment vs good info. Same goes for most teaching pros.

Great to hear that but also confusing cause all the experts from top stringers/former players have complete opposite opinions but I prefer this opinion as it saves me a lot of money and is better for my arm and i'm lucky cause i can continue with my favourite and cheapest synthetic gut(toalson gold) which I like better than the expensive x-1 biphase or x-cel. It's very personal I guess.

Rabbit
09-11-2012, 06:47 AM
Love Courier, but he is dead wrong.

I remember when Navratilova and Mcenore were commenting on the strings todays players use. They stated that the poly used today, is much more powerful than the natural gut they used. :roll: Clueless.


LMAO....I heard the same thing. Navratilova's most recent comment was that polys were like "toys". They opened up areas of the court that she used to not be able to hit. Based on her backhand, I wonder how much good a poly does for a really solid slice.


To give you an example of how often players re-string, Courier, who doesn't even play on tour anymore, had me re-string his frame 3 times for a champions series match (gosen og micro in mains, alu power in crosses).

And that's the problem. The pros, touring and former touring, really don't live in the real world of equipment. All their stuff is catered. The real deal in advice probably is better found with the journeyman player who has to live with his choices in equipment. When I strung for a satellite that was here a few years ago, there was very little poly. Most of those guys were using Wilson NXT. Why? Because they got it free and it didn't hurt would be my guess.

Years ago I listened to Johnny Mac talking about Rafa saying you should go with the lightest racket possible. I listened to this advice and that led to my first elbow injury. I won't listen to the playing pros anymore for equipment advice.

That is hilarious. Back even further, McEnroe was commenting on a Michael Stich match. He said, and it is true, that Stich used an unusually light frame for a pro; around 315 grams. McEnroe went on to say that he didn't know how Stich's arm didn't fall off. McEnroe said the rule of thumb was to play as heavy as you could.

I don't think McEnroe's specs have changed any since his C10 days.

realplayer
09-11-2012, 06:53 AM
LMAO....I heard the same thing. Navratilova's most recent comment was that polys were like "toys". They opened up areas of the court that she used to not be able to hit. Based on her backhand, I wonder how much good a poly does for a really solid slice.



Her style of play is not even suited for poly. Maybe in a hybrid but not full bed.

drakulie
09-11-2012, 07:00 AM
Great to hear that but also confusing cause all the experts from top stringers/former players have complete opposite opinions

I wouldn't consider any former player an "expert" on anything related to equipment. They really do not have any clue. Trust me, I've strung for enough of them to know.

As for top stringers, could you give an example?


The pros, touring and former touring, really don't live in the real world of equipment. All their stuff is catered. The real deal in advice probably is better found with the journeyman player who has to live with his choices in equipment.


Bingo!

sureshs
09-11-2012, 07:29 AM
I you are not a string breaker, then natural gut. If that is too expensive a proposition, then any multi. There are a lot of good ones out there:

NXT
NXT TOUR
Sensation
Xcel,
x-1 biphase
xR1
Pro Supex Maxim Touch
Genesis Explosion
Premier LT


Good luck!



Unfortunately, and ironically, they simply give bad advice/information about equipment vs good info. Same goes for most teaching pros.

I would second Xcel and LT for comfort. I used both of them before finally switching to the Wilson Shockshield for arm safety.

mikeler
09-11-2012, 07:36 AM
drakulie- based on your information, could you make a general string recommendation for a 3.5-4.0 player?

Check out my reviews here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=352048


I would second Xcel and LT for comfort. I used both of them before finally switching to the Wilson Shockshield for arm safety.

Funny, I thought Shock Shield was kind of stiff.

realplayer
09-11-2012, 09:27 AM
#DRAKULIE

Well, I tried to look it up but you are right. The only ones who advocates for poly is the luxilon expert(he is also against hybriding strings as it brings nothing) and John Elliot who is hardly objective otherwise he wouldn't sell his L-Tec monofilament strings anymore.

BTW I found this article and i'm very curious about your opinion and if it makes sense to string poly at low tension.



The Definitive Guide to Stringing Polys and Co-polys

Posted on March 17, 2011 by GGTennis
This entry was posted in Stringing and tagged proper way to string poly and co poly tennis string, stringing polys and copolys by GGTennis. Bookmark the permalink.
1
Okay students, time to take notes.

Qualitative analysis of tennis message boards, tennis twitter accounts, facebook pages, blogs and various discussions has convinced me that the vast majority of stringers are not well versed in the nature of poly and co-poly strings. As a result, many stringers, even those widely respected and much revered, do not install poly-based strings in a manner that optimizes their performance. In fact, it is not going out on much of a limb to estimate that 90% or more of stringers in the USA are UNINTENTIONALLY installing these strings in a manner which robs them of performance characteristics. I know because until late 2010 I was among this group of well-intentioned professional stringers who was unknowingly butchering these strings because I was not aware of how they needed to be handled.

First of all, and perhaps the biggest obstacle to overcome, is to realize that poly-based strings are designed to perform best at lower tensions. We are talking a tension range in the 30′s – 40′s. The absolute top end of that range would be 52 pounds. Once you go beyond 52, you are entering the point of quickly diminishing returns. I realize this may represent a HUGE shift in thinking for many readers. In fact a majority of you are probably thinking of mailing me a care package of colorful Sharpies so that I can decorate the walls of my padded room, but it is not really that crazy. The fear of low tensions is loss of control. I can assure you from personal experience as well as experience with many local customers, that quality poly-based offerings, PROPERLY INSTALLED, give ample control at these low tensions. I PROMISE this is a true statement. In fact, when all elements are working together (strings/racquet/player) it becomes almost impossible to hit a ball long.

Installing poly-based strings requires one critical element that many stringers may find challenging. P-A-T-I-E-N-C-E! It is not possible to provide to a quality stringjob with poly-based strings using a rushed sequence. The 15 minute stringjob that may be just fine for synthetics and natural gut, just is not going to cut it with poly-based strings. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO RUSH THE STRINGING PROCESS WITH POLY BASED STRINGS. Some professional stringers may take issue with this statement. They will claim their stringing method is fine-tuned, precise and consistent. We take no issues with these claims. However, those elements without additional care are NOT good enough to produce the best outcomes for poly-based strings. What they produce is consistently mediocre (at best) results. We must remember that the majority of recreational and league players need their strings to last much longer than the pros who get a fresh string job every 9 games. They need to last for weeks and sometimes months.

Poly-based strings are oft criticized for being stiff, rapidly losing tension, contributing to elbow pain and failing to hold playing properties. Each of these claims can be true, except there is a huge BUT here that dwarfs even that of Ms. Kardashian. These statements are only true when the strings have been overtensioned and OVERSTRETCHED. When not overtensioned or overstretched poly-based strings are EXTREMELY COMFORTABLE, LOSE LESS TENSION THAN MOST SYNTHETICS, and HOLD PLAYING PROPERTIES for an extended period of time. (The last varies according to makeup of string).

How can this be? The literature, testimonials and even the USRSA data show that poly-based strings loose tension rapidly. Clearly the statement made in the above paragraph is nothing more than an outpouring of a deranged mind, right? Well, not necessarily. We are suggesting that all this data is gathered from and observed by individuals and groups who have overtensioned the poly-based strings…including the USRSA who test at 62 pounds! (This might give representative results with other strings, but it just ain’t gonna fly with poly-based offerings.)

Poly-based strings have a much lower level of resiliency than synthetics and natural gut. As such, when being installed, it must be handled with care. Even though it is a strong and durable string in the raquet, it takes a tender touch to install properly. The best analogy we have found comes from John Elliot. John compares poly-based strings to the spring that can be found in your average ball point pen. Just like the spring it offers resiliency and when properly used it will hold this resiliency for an extended period of time. However, just like the spring in the pen, it can be easily stretched out of shape if not handled properly. Once this stretching occurs, the spring is dead. It will continue to elongate, but will not retract back into it’s original form and shape. The exact same principle applies to a poly-based string. It CAN NOT be OVERSTRETCHED or OVERTENSIONED without suffering consequences.

Unfortunately in order to keep it in perfect form, there are 2 CRITICAL STEPS that must be taken during installation which are not necessary with strings of different constructions. These steps will without question slow the stringing process. However, it is necessary in order for the poly-based strings to give optimal performance.

1. If using a constant pull electronic machine, the machine’s pull speed needs to be set to the lowest possible speed. We use a Wilson Baiardo and the lowest pull speed is 30%. It is easily set to this level and this is where the Baiardo is most effective for stringing poly-based strings. The reason this step is necessary is because electronic machines overshoot tension and then back down to the desired level. The faster the pull speed the more dramatic and harsh the overshoot. Most machines will overshoot at least 10% – 18% over the set tension. (Remember we are trying not to exceed 52 pounds in order not to overstretch the string!)

2. Once tension is reached, the stringer needs to wait at least 5 seconds before clamping off. This allows the poly-based string to stretch PROPERLY. By failing to give poly-based strings this much time slack is not properly removed and the string will loose tension and the wonderous low-tension performance will never be realized.

By following this pulling procedure the end result will be a tighter stringbed that holds tension for a longer period of time than one with higher reference tensions not pulled with an eye toward end performance rather than speed. In the south we refer to this process as “Moseying.” You gotta take your time, mosey along and enjoy yourself while stringing poly-based strings. It’s really the only way to do it well.

At this point a summary is in order. To get the best possible performance from poly-based strings you need to make sure you or your stringer do the following:

1. Select a tension in the upper 30′s – 40′s. The tension will vary according to density of stringbed and head size. (Note: It can be easily adjusted through observational learning. We’ll cover this in a future blog entry.)

2. Set pull speed to lowest possible setting when using an electronic constant pull machine. If using drop weight, lower bar slowly. If using a crank machine once machine starts to resist crank very, very slowly until it locks.

3. Allow string to sit under tension at least 5 seconds before clamping so that it has sufficient time to properly stretch.

Keep an open mind, give it a try and you will be AMAZED at the results.

Rozroz
09-11-2012, 09:38 AM
#DRAKULIE

Well, I tried to look it up but you are right. The only ones who advocates for poly is the luxilon expert(he is also against hybriding strings as it brings nothing) and John Elliot who is hardly objective otherwise he wouldn't sell his L-Tec monofilament strings anymore.

BTW I found this article and i'm very curious about your opinion and if it makes sense to string poly at low tension.



The Definitive Guide to Stringing Polys and Co-polys

Posted on March 17, 2011 by GGTennis
This entry was posted in Stringing and tagged proper way to string poly and co poly tennis string, stringing polys and copolys by GGTennis. Bookmark the permalink.
1
Okay students, time to take notes.

Qualitative analysis of tennis message boards, tennis twitter accounts, facebook pages, blogs and various discussions has convinced me that the vast majority of stringers are not well versed in the nature of poly and co-poly strings. As a result, many stringers, even those widely respected and much revered, do not install poly-based strings in a manner that optimizes their performance. In fact, it is not going out on much of a limb to estimate that 90% or more of stringers in the USA are UNINTENTIONALLY installing these strings in a manner which robs them of performance characteristics. I know because until late 2010 I was among this group of well-intentioned professional stringers who was unknowingly butchering these strings because I was not aware of how they needed to be handled.

First of all, and perhaps the biggest obstacle to overcome, is to realize that poly-based strings are designed to perform best at lower tensions. We are talking a tension range in the 30′s – 40′s. The absolute top end of that range would be 52 pounds. Once you go beyond 52, you are entering the point of quickly diminishing returns. I realize this may represent a HUGE shift in thinking for many readers. In fact a majority of you are probably thinking of mailing me a care package of colorful Sharpies so that I can decorate the walls of my padded room, but it is not really that crazy. The fear of low tensions is loss of control. I can assure you from personal experience as well as experience with many local customers, that quality poly-based offerings, PROPERLY INSTALLED, give ample control at these low tensions. I PROMISE this is a true statement. In fact, when all elements are working together (strings/racquet/player) it becomes almost impossible to hit a ball long.

Installing poly-based strings requires one critical element that many stringers may find challenging. P-A-T-I-E-N-C-E! It is not possible to provide to a quality stringjob with poly-based strings using a rushed sequence. The 15 minute stringjob that may be just fine for synthetics and natural gut, just is not going to cut it with poly-based strings. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO RUSH THE STRINGING PROCESS WITH POLY BASED STRINGS. Some professional stringers may take issue with this statement. They will claim their stringing method is fine-tuned, precise and consistent. We take no issues with these claims. However, those elements without additional care are NOT good enough to produce the best outcomes for poly-based strings. What they produce is consistently mediocre (at best) results. We must remember that the majority of recreational and league players need their strings to last much longer than the pros who get a fresh string job every 9 games. They need to last for weeks and sometimes months.

Poly-based strings are oft criticized for being stiff, rapidly losing tension, contributing to elbow pain and failing to hold playing properties. Each of these claims can be true, except there is a huge BUT here that dwarfs even that of Ms. Kardashian. These statements are only true when the strings have been overtensioned and OVERSTRETCHED. When not overtensioned or overstretched poly-based strings are EXTREMELY COMFORTABLE, LOSE LESS TENSION THAN MOST SYNTHETICS, and HOLD PLAYING PROPERTIES for an extended period of time. (The last varies according to makeup of string).

How can this be? The literature, testimonials and even the USRSA data show that poly-based strings loose tension rapidly. Clearly the statement made in the above paragraph is nothing more than an outpouring of a deranged mind, right? Well, not necessarily. We are suggesting that all this data is gathered from and observed by individuals and groups who have overtensioned the poly-based strings…including the USRSA who test at 62 pounds! (This might give representative results with other strings, but it just ain’t gonna fly with poly-based offerings.)

Poly-based strings have a much lower level of resiliency than synthetics and natural gut. As such, when being installed, it must be handled with care. Even though it is a strong and durable string in the raquet, it takes a tender touch to install properly. The best analogy we have found comes from John Elliot. John compares poly-based strings to the spring that can be found in your average ball point pen. Just like the spring it offers resiliency and when properly used it will hold this resiliency for an extended period of time. However, just like the spring in the pen, it can be easily stretched out of shape if not handled properly. Once this stretching occurs, the spring is dead. It will continue to elongate, but will not retract back into it’s original form and shape. The exact same principle applies to a poly-based string. It CAN NOT be OVERSTRETCHED or OVERTENSIONED without suffering consequences.

Unfortunately in order to keep it in perfect form, there are 2 CRITICAL STEPS that must be taken during installation which are not necessary with strings of different constructions. These steps will without question slow the stringing process. However, it is necessary in order for the poly-based strings to give optimal performance.

1. If using a constant pull electronic machine, the machine’s pull speed needs to be set to the lowest possible speed. We use a Wilson Baiardo and the lowest pull speed is 30%. It is easily set to this level and this is where the Baiardo is most effective for stringing poly-based strings. The reason this step is necessary is because electronic machines overshoot tension and then back down to the desired level. The faster the pull speed the more dramatic and harsh the overshoot. Most machines will overshoot at least 10% – 18% over the set tension. (Remember we are trying not to exceed 52 pounds in order not to overstretch the string!)

2. Once tension is reached, the stringer needs to wait at least 5 seconds before clamping off. This allows the poly-based string to stretch PROPERLY. By failing to give poly-based strings this much time slack is not properly removed and the string will loose tension and the wonderous low-tension performance will never be realized.

By following this pulling procedure the end result will be a tighter stringbed that holds tension for a longer period of time than one with higher reference tensions not pulled with an eye toward end performance rather than speed. In the south we refer to this process as “Moseying.” You gotta take your time, mosey along and enjoy yourself while stringing poly-based strings. It’s really the only way to do it well.

At this point a summary is in order. To get the best possible performance from poly-based strings you need to make sure you or your stringer do the following:

1. Select a tension in the upper 30′s – 40′s. The tension will vary according to density of stringbed and head size. (Note: It can be easily adjusted through observational learning. We’ll cover this in a future blog entry.)

2. Set pull speed to lowest possible setting when using an electronic constant pull machine. If using drop weight, lower bar slowly. If using a crank machine once machine starts to resist crank very, very slowly until it locks.

3. Allow string to sit under tension at least 5 seconds before clamping so that it has sufficient time to properly stretch.

Keep an open mind, give it a try and you will be AMAZED at the results.

AMAZING READ.
makes perfect sense.
thanks!
i'm not sure how happy my stringer's gonna be trying to tell him that though... ;)
btw- i'm currently having a poly mains multi cross.. which feels fine for the past few months (restringing every 10 hours or so). it's 56/54.
what would you recommend doing for a first step towards your tip?

mikeler
09-11-2012, 09:49 AM
Of course the Luxilon guy thinks hybrids are a waste, he wants you to buy a full set of Luxilon!

realplayer
09-11-2012, 10:01 AM
Of course the Luxilon guy thinks hybrids are a waste, he wants you to buy a full set of Luxilon!

Yes, I know.

decades
09-11-2012, 10:04 AM
These are the specs of Nadal and Federer. Nadal is not playing a headlight racket with an almost even balance and an extreme high swingweight!!

Nadal = 335/33,8/365 sw

Federer = 360.5/31.6/330 sw

yeah I think he got that backwards didn't he?

realplayer
09-11-2012, 10:11 AM
AMAZING READ.
makes perfect sense.
thanks!
i'm not sure how happy my stringer's gonna be trying to tell him that though... ;)
btw- i'm currently having a poly mains multi cross.. which feels fine for the past few months (restringing every 10 hours or so). it's 56/54.
what would you recommend doing for a first step towards your tip?

Find a good stringer.

realplayer
09-11-2012, 10:15 AM
AMAZING READ.
makes perfect sense.
thanks!
i'm not sure how happy my stringer's gonna be trying to tell him that though... ;)
btw- i'm currently having a poly mains multi cross.. which feels fine for the past few months (restringing every 10 hours or so). it's 56/54.
what would you recommend doing for a first step towards your tip?

BTW, it is not a tip. I'm just curious about the performance of poly at low tension in this way and if it is an improvement over multi's or gut. If it's possible or not is a different story.

Rozroz
09-11-2012, 10:17 AM
Find a good stringer.

yea, well i meant more towards the poly tension..

decades
09-11-2012, 10:25 AM
i dont think he's recommending anyone who uses gut to switch to a full bed of poly. he goes on to say he doesn't like using a full bed of poly since it makes finishing a point harder with his already spinny strokes. he instead uses a cheap nylon/synthetic in the mains with a co-poly cross which is a pretty comfortable setup, IMO.

he also called his syn gut "nylon". these guys always confuse their terminology when they are interviewed. I give him credit for not pimping gosen, the brand of string he has used for decades.

decades
09-11-2012, 10:30 AM
So recreational players can get tennis elbows?

I agree with drakulie. Recreational players have no business using polyester strings.

latest gen of co polys at low tension probably are fine.

drakulie
09-11-2012, 11:40 AM
The Definitive Guide to Stringing Polys and Co-polys

Posted on March 17, 2011 by GGTennis


First of all, and perhaps the biggest obstacle to overcome, is to realize that poly-based strings are designed to perform best at lower tensions.

No they are not. Where did he come up with this nonsense?


I can assure you from personal experience as well as experience with many local customers, that quality poly-based offerings, PROPERLY INSTALLED, give ample control at these low tensions.

So if they are installed at 53 lbs they are not "PROPERLY INSTALLED" ? :roll:


I PROMISE this is a true statement. In fact, when all elements are working together (strings/racquet/player) it becomes almost impossible to hit a ball long.

More bull *****.


Installing poly-based strings requires one critical element that many stringers may find challenging. P-A-T-I-E-N-C-E! It is not possible to provide to a quality stringjob with poly-based strings using a rushed sequence. The 15 minute stringjob that may be just fine for synthetics and natural gut, just is not going to cut it with poly-based strings. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO RUSH THE STRINGING PROCESS WITH POLY BASED STRINGS.


LOL.



Poly-based strings are oft criticized for being stiff, rapidly losing tension, contributing to elbow pain and failing to hold playing properties. Each of these claims can be true, except there is a huge BUT here that dwarfs even that of Ms. Kardashian. These statements are only true when the strings have been overtensioned and OVERSTRETCHED.


Thats because when comparing poly to other synthetics such as multi's or natural guts, THEY ARE STIFF AND LOSE TENSION QUICKER, INCLUDING PLAYING CHARACTERISTSCS, regardless of tension.

When not overtensioned or overstretched poly-based strings are EXTREMELY COMFORTABLE, LOSE LESS TENSION THAN MOST SYNTHETICS, and HOLD PLAYING PROPERTIES for an extended period of time. (The last varies according to makeup of string).

OK, so now I know for a fact he has never completed any testing on dynamic tension or SBD. If he has, he wouldn't be writing this, cause it simply ain't true.


Poly-based strings have a much lower level of resiliency than synthetics

Poly-based strings ARE SYNTHETICS.

As such, when being installed, it must be handled with care. Even though it is a strong and durable string in the raquet, it takes a tender touch to install properly.

lmao! THIS IS SO EFFEN FUNNY.

1. If using a constant pull electronic machine, the machine’s pull speed needs to be set to the lowest possible speed. We use a Wilson Baiardo and the lowest pull speed is 30%. It is easily set to this level and this is where the Baiardo is most effective for stringing poly-based strings. The reason this step is necessary is because electronic machines overshoot tension and then back down to the desired level. The faster the pull speed the more dramatic and harsh the overshoot. Most machines will overshoot at least 10% – 18% over the set tension. (Remember we are trying not to exceed 52 pounds in order not to overstretch the string!)

The Wilson Baiardo doesn't overshoot tension. I would know, I own two of them, so by him holding tension before clamping, as he advocates below, he is basically killing and overstretching the string. The very thing he advocates not to do. LOL

2. Once tension is reached, the stringer needs to wait at least 5 seconds before clamping off. This allows the poly-based string to stretch PROPERLY.

Why not just set the machines pre-stretch function to 5% or whatever?

By failing to give poly-based strings this much time slack is not properly removed and the string will loose tension and the wonderous low-tension performance will never be realized.

How about not pre-strecth the string at all if it plays as well as he advocates at low tension without any pre-strecth?

By following this pulling procedure the end result will be a tighter stringbed that holds tension for a longer period of time

any string that is pre-strecthed will hold tension longer that one that is not. He is not re-inventing the wheel here. The reason is very simple, you have taken the elastity out of the string, and as a result, will end up with a tighter string bed, and also a string bed that has dead strings in it. Congratulations!! You just used a procedure that once you have tied off, you need to cut out and re-string PROPERLY without killing the string as you just advocated.


Horrible article.

BreakPoint
09-11-2012, 11:44 AM
So recreational players can get tennis elbows?

I agree with drakulie. Recreational players have no business using polyester strings.
Agree 100%.

Just like recreational drivers should not be driving 1,000 horsepower Formula One cars. The odds of hurting themselves is much greater.

Rabbit
09-11-2012, 11:47 AM
Agree 100%.

Just like recreational drivers should not be driving 1,000 horsepower Formula One cars. The odds of hurting themselves is much greater.

There was a line out of an old Motor Trend article. The writers in the office had a standing joke:

What is the quickest way to kill a guy who drives a Volvo?





Buy him a Vette.

They also had a suggestion for a slogan for Volvo "It's floored and you're bored".


I should add that the WTA tier 2 event I string for every year is quite different. They all string poly, poly mains/mult or gut crosses. But I think this event is a rung or two up from the guys' event we had.

mikeler
09-11-2012, 12:02 PM
"it takes a tender touch to install properly"

C'mon Drakulie, I'm sure Dimitrov specified that his strings needed a little TLC!

YesTennis
09-11-2012, 12:04 PM
Thanks drakulie and Mikeler. One other quick question. As a 3.5-4.0 non string breaking player, it sounds like full bed gut is the way to go. If one is using a "tweener," do you ever find that the full bed gut is just too powerful? Should one just increase the tension on the gut, or consider using a poly cross? Thanks in advance for your help/advice.

drakulie
09-11-2012, 12:16 PM
"it takes a tender touch to install properly"

C'mon Drakulie, I'm sure Dimitrov specified that his strings needed a little TLC!

Yes, he asked if I could sleep with his poly string the night before and keep it warm before stringing his frames in the morning. LOL.

That article is absolutley horrible, and riddled with contradictions. Where people come up with this stuff is beyond me.

Thanks drakulie and Mikeler. One other quick question. As a 3.5-4.0 non string breaking player, it sounds like full bed gut is the way to go. If one is using a "tweener," do you ever find that the full bed gut is just too powerful? Should one just increase the tension on the gut, or consider using a poly cross? Thanks in advance for your help/advice.

You could use 15 gauge Babolat, or could pre-stretch the string to take out some of it's elasticity.

YesTennis
09-11-2012, 12:23 PM
Yes, he asked if I could sleep with his poly string the night before and keep it warm before stringing his frames in the morning. LOL.

That article is absolutley horrible, and riddled with contradictions. Where people come up with this stuff is beyond me.



You could use 15 gauge Babolat, or could pre-stretch the string to take out some of it's elasticity.

Thanks again!!!

Rabbit
09-11-2012, 12:28 PM
Yes, he asked if I could sleep with his poly string the night before and keep it warm before stringing his frames in the morning. LOL.


I want to party with you, cowboy.




That article is absolutley horrible, and riddled with contradictions. Where people come up with this stuff is beyond me.

The only line that I really winced at was when Courier said that he tells club players they are really missing the boat if they aren't using a poly. Courier is using OG 16 in the mains and poly in the crosses which isn't going to make a dime's worth of difference to 90% of the club playing population.

realplayer
09-11-2012, 12:48 PM
No they are not. Where did he come up with this nonsense?



So if they are installed at 53 lbs they are not "PROPERLY INSTALLED" ? :roll:



More bull *****.



LOL.




Thats because when comparing poly to other synthetics such as multi's or natural guts, THEY ARE STIFF AND LOSE TENSION QUICKER, INCLUDING PLAYING CHARACTERISTSCS, regardless of tension.



OK, so now I know for a fact he has never completed any testing on dynamic tension or SBD. If he has, he wouldn't be writing this, cause it simply ain't true.




Poly-based strings ARE SYNTHETICS.



lmao! THIS IS SO EFFEN FUNNY.



The Wilson Baiardo doesn't overshoot tension. I would know, I own two of them, so by him holding tension before clamping, as he advocates below, he is basically killing and overstretching the string. The very thing he advocates not to do. LOL



Why not just set the machines pre-stretch function to 5% or whatever?



How about not pre-strecth the string at all if it plays as well as he advocates at low tension without any pre-strecth?



any string that is pre-strecthed will hold tension longer that one that is not. He is not re-inventing the wheel here. The reason is very simple, you have taken the elastity out of the string, and as a result, will end up with a tighter string bed, and also a string bed that has dead strings in it. Congratulations!! You just used a procedure that once you have tied off, you need to cut out and re-string PROPERLY without killing the string as you just advocated.


Horrible article.

Thanks for your info.

drakulie
09-11-2012, 12:49 PM
The only line that I really winced at was when Courier said that he tells club players they are really missing the boat if they aren't using a poly. Courier is using OG 16 in the mains and poly in the crosses which isn't going to make a dime's worth of difference to 90% of the club playing population.

What courier doesn't realize is that he is still getting the performance and feel from his gosen og micro, and the alu power mostly stiffens up the string bed for him, probably making it feel closer to the feel he had in his PS85.

Rabbit
09-11-2012, 12:56 PM
What courier doesn't realize is that he is still getting the performance and feel from his gosen og micro, and the alu power mostly stiffens up the string bed for him, probably making it feel closer to the feel he had in his PS85.

EXACTLY. And for many club players who don't have supreme timing, doing that winds up making the string bed their enemy. I recently ditched poly in my frames, along with gut.

I've been playing with some ex college players from time to time (as a fill in). I noticed one of them uses poly and "whatever" in the crosses. The rest of them are still using synthetic. Plain old synthetic.

After 15 years or more of experimentation, I decided to experiment with synthetic. So far, so good. I was planning on a thread revealing this new wonder string. :)

Seriously though sometimes the best thing is the simplest thing. I don't mind string moving, I love stringing and synthetic performs, albeit for a smaller window, but it performs.

I was just plain floored when some 2 50-something year old 3.0 - 3.5 ladies came into a friend of mine's shop. The high-society club they play at had been giving them some new string to try. They were worried because their arms were hurting. My buddy spoke with them, took their frames and they left. He came over to me. The stringer at the club had talked them into Luxilon ALU at 60 pounds. He said "they aren't the first either..."

Just ridiculous.

realplayer
09-11-2012, 01:41 PM
What courier doesn't realize is that he is still getting the performance and feel from his gosen og micro, and the alu power mostly stiffens up the string bed for him, probably making it feel closer to the feel he had in his PS85.

That sounds plausible. I also heard that most stringers advice the other way around. So in this case the alu power in the mains and the gosen micro in the crosses because the ball will be "catched" better in the stringbed. Whatever that means I don't know....
I always thought it was for durability and control but the opinions start to vary a little bit.

Anyway what is your opinion about reversing the strings and the effects?

jackcrawford
09-12-2012, 05:51 AM
I think it's hilarious to think that Courier, former ATP #1 and current Davis Cup captain can't adjust his thinking to the average rec player and advise them on strings, frames and strokes, but the TW HOF who might work in a small tennis shop can:shock: sort of like saying a Nobel prize winner in physics can't multiply 6 x 9 but a high-school dropout can:mrgreen: Doug Adler, former Challenger tour player and current commentator for several outlets, does a great job with 3.5 players despite having played at a 7.0 level and Courier would as well.

ramos77
09-12-2012, 06:39 AM
have you guys seen his on court interviews?

courier just likes the sound of his own voice, and talks a lot of crap IMO.

drakulie
09-12-2012, 04:52 PM
I think it's hilarious to think that Courier, former ATP #1 and current Davis Cup captain can't adjust his thinking to the average rec player and advise them on strings, frames and strokes, but the TW HOF who might work in a small tennis shop can:shock: sort of like saying a Nobel prize winner in physics can't multiply 6 x 9 but a high-school dropout can:mrgreen:

Unfortunately, your analogy doesn't work.

For example, Courier, although a Hall of Famer, hasn't strung 5,000+ racquets in a year for the average weekend hack, and as a result, doesn't see the result of those weekend hacks playing with poly, which consists of many of them complaining of arm pain and having to stop playing sometimes for months at a time.

More-over, as is evidenced by his remarks, does not understand that poly is not as powerful as natural gut, nor does it provide more spin than natural gut, unless one is hitting like him, which no wekeend hack is doing.

Lastly, Courier himself does not take his own advice, as evidenced by the fact that he continues to use Gosen OG Micro in the mains of his current frame. Anyone who knows anything about string knows that the mains are what provides the performance (spin, power, etc).

And he did very well with that string in his PS85 while on tour, where he averaged 2500+ RPM's of spin on the forehand and could reach up to 3,200 RPM's. On the backhand averaged over 1600 RPM's of spin, and on serve could get up to 4000+ RPM's. All of which aren't far off from what current players are doing with larger frames and full poly beds as he is advocating.

http://www.advancedtennis.com/index.htm
http://www.advancedtennis.com/photos/gambil1.jpg


http://www.advancedtennis.com/photos/philservep.jpg

sureshs
09-12-2012, 05:40 PM
Jim Courier says Nadal plays with a very headlight racket compared to the norm because he needs to create head acceleration to do what he does and Federer on the contrary has a heavier racket in the head because he is driving the ball more through the court and he is an allcourt player so people at home can take a lesson from that.

Ok, can anybody explain what Jim is saying here cause Nadal has a racket with a much more higher swingweight(360 plus) than Federer(330 plus) and Federer has a much heavier and much more headlight racket than Nadal.

This sounds like the opposite of what Jim is describing??!!

Isn't Fed also 350+ in SW?

sureshs
09-12-2012, 05:46 PM
Check out my reviews here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=352048




Funny, I thought Shock Shield was kind of stiff.

I agree that the LT was softer. I am told that the Shockshield is basically Hollow Core with the hollow now containing gel and not air. I just bought into it. I don't systematically change strings in order to compare.

sureshs
09-12-2012, 05:53 PM
Agassi seems to have been a sneaky fellow

realplayer
09-13-2012, 04:59 AM
#Drakulie


Lastly, Courier himself does not take his own advice, as evidenced by the fact that he continues to use Gosen OG Micro in the mains of his current frame. Anyone who knows anything about string knows that the mains are what provides the performance (spin, power, etc).

But if that is so why are using yourself gut in the mains and poly in the crosses and say that it provides much more spin as the mains provides the performance.

I mean how can gut in the mains provide more spin than poly in the mains when poly in the crosses only stiffens the feeling of the stringbed like you are saying now?? Yet you also have stated in another thread called: (Pros and Cons: Gut Mains vs Gut cross in hybrid) that Gut in the mains and Poly in the "crosses" gives more spin!!!

If strings in the mains provides the performance than poly in the mains should provide more spin. yet in this quote of you you are saying:


Gut in the mains with a good poly will offer much more power, spin, comfort, and as a result, ultimately more control.

This seems contradictory but hopefully you can explain what you meant.

drakulie
09-13-2012, 05:10 AM
^^^ how is that contradictory? :confused:

realplayer
09-13-2012, 05:23 AM
^^^ how is that contradictory? :confused:

Because if the mains provide the performance than i conclude that poly in the mains would give you more spin than in the crosses but you said in the quote that you chose for a hybrid with gut in the mains because that gives more spin.(and also power,comfort and control)

drakulie
09-13-2012, 05:27 AM
^^^ yes. It provides just as much, if not more spin this way. How am I contradicting myself?

realplayer
09-13-2012, 05:36 AM
^^^ yes. It provides just as much, if not more spin this way. How am I contradicting myself?

If mains provide the performance shouldn't it be more logical to put poly in the mains because it is commonly known that poly provides more spin and in the crosses it won't do much.
Yet you are saying that gut in the mains(which provide the performance) gives more or the same spin than poly in the mains.

gut-poly = same or more spin

poly-gut = same or less spin

If mains provide the performance than poly in the mains should give more spin than gut in the mains??

The contradiction lies in the phrase where you say that the alu in the crosses of courier mostly stiffens things up and does not much else but you also use a hybrid with gut in the mains and poly in the crosses because it gives more spin and comfort.
So i conclude with Courier the poly in the crosses does nothing and the poly in your crosses have all kinds of benefits(more spin, control, power and comfort)

tguru
09-13-2012, 05:36 AM
He certainly seems a lot more into his gear than many other pros or former players.[/QUOTE]

And that's about it. It's amusing the credence some here give to his knowledge base. Just last week he made an ignorant tech comment at the Open. Yes, compared to Mac he's a genius but otherwise a pretentious legend in his own mind!

galain
09-13-2012, 05:40 AM
#DRAKULIE



The Definitive Guide to Stringing Polys and Co-polys

Posted on March 17, 2011 by GGTennis
I can assure you from personal experience as well as experience with many local customers, that quality poly-based offerings, PROPERLY INSTALLED, give ample control at these low tensions. I PROMISE this is a true statement. In fact, when all elements are working together (strings/racquet/player) it becomes almost impossible to hit a ball long.



I PROMISE that what follows is also a true statement.

Give me a quality poly, 'properly installed' at whatever tension is recommended, and at more than one point during a match, I WILL hit the ball long.

drakulie
09-13-2012, 08:44 AM
The contradiction lies in the phrase where you say that the alu in the crosses of courier mostly stiffens things up and does not much else but you also use a hybrid with gut in the mains and poly in the crosses because it gives more spin and comfort.
So i conclude with Courier the poly in the crosses does nothing and the poly in your crosses have all kinds of benefits(more spin, control, power and comfort)

You've misunderstood what I've stated. If Courier felt that poly has such great benefit, then he would put it on his mains where one gets the performance from the string (spin,power, etc). He doesn't. He puts it in the crosses. He doesn't understand that the performance he is getting is from his gosen og micro, not from his alu power in the crosses that is simply stiffening up the string bed for him. This is the same thing I'm getting when I hybrid with gut in mains and poly in crosses.

Rabbit
09-13-2012, 08:45 AM
If mains provide the performance shouldn't it be more logical to put poly in the mains because it is commonly known that poly provides more spin and in the crosses it won't do much.
Yet you are saying that gut in the mains(which provide the performance) gives more or the same spin than poly in the mains.

gut-poly = same or more spin

poly-gut = same or less spin

If mains provide the performance than poly in the mains should give more spin than gut in the mains??

The contradiction lies in the phrase where you say that the alu in the crosses of courier mostly stiffens things up and does not much else but you also use a hybrid with gut in the mains and poly in the crosses because it gives more spin and comfort.
So i conclude with Courier the poly in the crosses does nothing and the poly in your crosses have all kinds of benefits(more spin, control, power and comfort)

Truthfully, I've been told by folks who've forgotten more about racquet technology and implementation than I'll ever know that the cross strings function is to hold the mains in place. I've also been told and it falls in line with my experience, that the mains account for about 80% of the feel of a stringbed.

Now, as to poly versus gut and spin. 99% of spin comes from one thing...technique. The pros can get some tweaks from their setups. And those tweaks probably have more impact to them because they are so good. But even with the pros, there are two really big factors: perception and feel. I can guarantee you that if it doesn't feel right, even though it may enhance a certain facet of their game, they aren't going to do it. And the perception the pro has of a certain item. James Blake has said he won't even try a string other than Luxilon ALU.

What Drakulie is saying is that Courier's preference for poly in the crosses doesn't really enhance his spin, rather it enhances the feel he gets. This means that the frame feels more like his old frame. In other words, the addition of poly in his crosses makes his new 102 feel more like his old 90. The poly does deaden the string bed compared to a full bed of synthetic so his feel is closer, and poly does take some of the power away as well. This assists him with control.

realplayer
09-13-2012, 09:07 AM
Truthfully, I've been told by folks who've forgotten more about racquet technology and implementation than I'll ever know that the cross strings function is to hold the mains in place. I've also been told and it falls in line with my experience, that the mains account for about 80% of the feel of a stringbed.

Now, as to poly versus gut and spin. 99% of spin comes from one thing...technique. The pros can get some tweaks from their setups. And those tweaks probably have more impact to them because they are so good. But even with the pros, there are two really big factors: perception and feel. I can guarantee you that if it doesn't feel right, even though it may enhance a certain facet of their game, they aren't going to do it. And the perception the pro has of a certain item. James Blake has said he won't even try a string other than Luxilon ALU.

What Drakulie is saying is that Courier's preference for poly in the crosses doesn't really enhance his spin, rather it enhances the feel he gets. This means that the frame feels more like his old frame. In other words, the addition of poly in his crosses makes his new 102 feel more like his old 90. The poly does deaden the string bed compared to a full bed of synthetic so his feel is closer, and poly does take some of the power away as well. This assists him with control.

Well, I know that and I totally agree with you and drakulie. The only thing i don't get is that drakulie himself plays with gut in the mains and poly in the crosses because according to drakulie this will give more spin or at least the same amount.
That it gives better feel, more power and comfort i can understand except for the spin part.

In my book poly in the mains and gut in the crosses should give more spin than the other way around so that's why i ask drakulie why this set-up gives the same amount or even more spin.

drakulie
09-13-2012, 09:12 AM
^^^ rabbit, excellent post. Thanks!

drakulie
09-13-2012, 09:28 AM
In my book poly in the mains and gut in the crosses should give more spin than the other way around so that's why i ask drakulie why this set-up gives the same amount or even more spin.

Realplayer, this is where the confusion lies and where all the misinformation about poly and how it works to achieve more spin begins. For the most part, for a poly to create more spin a player has to hit the ball hard enough to literally crush the ball resulting in the ball covering more area of the string bed. The vast amount of recreational players aren't hitting the ball this hard.

Secondly, poly, compared to multis and other synthetics is much less powerful. Therefore, people have to swing harder/faster, and as a result get more spin. However, if they swung just as fast with any other string, they would get the same amount of spin, but with more power and comfort.

Lastly, there is the myth that natural gut doesn't provide spin, which simply isn't true. Gut is an excellent string for spin. Just look at the data I provided of pro players. Most of them were using gut. Sampras was able to obtain over 5000 rpms of spin using a ps85 with a full be of gut strung in the 70's.

realplayer
09-13-2012, 09:38 AM
...........................

realplayer
09-13-2012, 09:47 AM
Realplayer, this is where the confusion lies and where all the misinformation about poly and how it works to achieve more spin begins. For the most part, for a poly to create more spin a player has to hit the ball hard enough to literally crush the ball resulting in the ball covering more area of the string bed. The vast amount of recreational players aren't hitting the ball this hard.

Secondly, poly, compared to multis and other synthetics is much less powerful. Therefore, people have to swing harder/faster, and as a result get more spin. However, if they swung just as fast with any other string, they would get the same amount of spin, but with more power and comfort.

Lastly, there is the myth that natural gut doesn't provide spin, which simply isn't true. Gut is an excellent string for spin. Just look at the data I provided of pro players. Most of them were using gut. Sampras was able to obtain over 5000 rpms of spin using a ps85 with a full be of gut strung in the 70's.

So what you are actually saying is that recreational players might even get more spin for natural gut cause they don't swing hard enough.
So that explains why you choose for gut in the mains as it actually gives you more spin because you don't have enough swingspeed to get the most out of it.
Which brings me to the question what kind of level you need to take advantage from the poly as I assume that you as a stringer for the pros will have a fairly high level yourself.

drakulie
09-13-2012, 10:03 AM
Realplayer, the reason I went back to gut is simple, and it has nothing to do with generating enough swing speed, which I have plenty of. The string performs better than poly for a longer period of time. When I use poly I have to cut it out after two days, because of the enormous loss in tension and it's ability to perform. It dies too quickly. With gut, it holds tension much longer and performs great until it breaks.

mikeler
09-13-2012, 10:57 AM
Realplayer, the reason I went back to gut is simple, and it has nothing to do with generating enough swing speed, which I have plenty of. The string performs better than poly for a longer period of time. When I use poly I have to cut it out after two days, because of the enormous loss in tension and it's ability to perform. It dies too quickly. With gut, it holds tension much longer and performs great until it breaks.


I tried a full job of Wilson Natural Gut 16 earlier this year and I felt that the spin was equivalent with the Weiss Cannon B5E hybrids I was using before that. It was kind of surprising but nobody really talks about gut as a spin string. Everyone raves about the comfort and power but not many talk about the spin.

realplayer
09-13-2012, 11:17 AM
I tried a full job of Wilson Natural Gut 16 earlier this year and I felt that the spin was equivalent with the Weiss Cannon B5E hybrids I was using before that. It was kind of surprising but nobody really talks about gut as a spin string. Everyone raves about the comfort and power but not many talk about the spin.

I read somewhere that Navratilova was raving about the black code string which did wonders for her game.
It seems that psychology plays a big part as Navratilova with her somewhat compact strokes and continental forehand grip is not the kind of player who would benefit from the poly.

Rabbit
09-13-2012, 11:23 AM
I read somewhere that Navratilova was raving about the black code string which did wonders for her game.
It seems that psychology plays a big part as Navratilova with her somewhat compact strokes and continental forehand grip is not the kind of player who would benefit from the poly.

Exactly. Navratilova is drinking the Kool Aid. She sees Nadal hit 40000 RPM forehands and she thinks it'll boos her game as well. As I posted earlier, she said poly is like a new toy...it opens up the court, places you couldn't hit before. I'd like to hear her explain exactly how poly has improved the scope of her slice backhand and how poly helps her backhand hit new spots in the court. Likewise, as McEnroe has noted, poly is definitely not good around the net. Does it help or hurt her net game?

I think Navratilova and Courier and McEnroe are just trying to stay relevant. IMO they could better accomplish this by speaking to the game and not the gear.

realplayer
09-13-2012, 11:28 AM
You've misunderstood what I've stated. If Courier felt that poly has such great benefit, then he would put it on his mains where one gets the performance from the string (spin,power, etc). He doesn't. He puts it in the crosses. He doesn't understand that the performance he is getting is from his gosen og micro, not from his alu power in the crosses that is simply stiffening up the string bed for him. This is the same thing I'm getting when I hybrid with gut in mains and poly in crosses.

Courier said he got too much spin from poly in the mains. Anyway, you got just as much spin from gut in the mains so it probably would not make that much different anyway. Maybe it is a bit overhyped to sell more poly strings.

jorel
09-13-2012, 11:33 AM
who thinks realplayer is actually jim courier?

Klatu Verata Necktie
09-13-2012, 12:27 PM
Realplayer, the reason I went back to gut is simple, and it has nothing to do with generating enough swing speed, which I have plenty of. The string performs better than poly for a longer period of time. When I use poly I have to cut it out after two days, because of the enormous loss in tension and it's ability to perform. It dies too quickly. With gut, it holds tension much longer and performs great until it breaks.

Drak,

I haven't posted here in years, but I see that not a lot has changed. You are still making friends and Breakpoint is looking to log internet victories using 90" racquets.

How's life these days?

drakulie
09-13-2012, 12:32 PM
Drak,

I haven't posted here in years, but I see that not a lot has changed. You are still making friends and Breakpoint is looking to log internet victories using 90" racquets.

How's life these days?

Klatu!!!! Great to hear from you. Check out this thread:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=438964

Klatu Verata Necktie
09-13-2012, 01:36 PM
Wow, Drak! You'd nowhere near as fat as I thought you'd be after getting married.

All kidding aside, you're not working with kids anymore? Is this stringing gig full time?

sureshs
09-13-2012, 02:15 PM
Looks like I missed that thread as I don't browse the section. Going to read it in detail soon.

BreakPoint
09-13-2012, 09:41 PM
Drak,

I haven't posted here in years, but I see that not a lot has changed. You are still making friends and Breakpoint is looking to log internet victories using 90" racquets.

How's life these days?
Nah......90's are WAY too huge. 85's are where it's at in this day and age. :wink:

Why have you been away for so long?

Klatu Verata Necktie
09-14-2012, 06:43 AM
Nah......90's are WAY too huge. 85's are where it's at in this day and age. :wink:

Why have you been away for so long?

Life got in the way . . . work, marriage, you know how it is.

sureshs
09-14-2012, 07:40 AM
Drak,

I haven't posted here in years, but I see that not a lot has changed. You are still making friends and Breakpoint is looking to log internet victories using 90" racquets.

How's life these days?

That would be a real big racquet