PDA

View Full Version : Examples of coaches ruining players


Gonzalito17
09-30-2012, 03:09 PM
We all hear about the success stories - Agassi and BG, Roddick and BG, Sampras and Tim Gullikson, Edberg and Pickard, Agassi and Nick Bollettieri. But coaches are not perfect and don't always get the job done, sometimes they fail with a player. I just heard of a a kid from Spain who at 12 won the big tourney in France at 11 and then defended the title at 12, not even Nadal did that. This kid was better than Nadal at 12. Then the coaches supposedly changed his game and they ruined the poor kid, now the kid is 19 and nothing special.

Then there was Todd Martin who while paired with Djokovic and Fish got nothing accomplished. Not that Martin doesn't know tennis but he just didn't connect with those players and or perhaps they weren't ready to ascend. Bad timing.

We hear so many success stories about coaches who create champions and star players but there must be just as many examples of great young talents who were ruined because they had subpar or even bad coaching. Please discuss.... Thanks,

smoledman
09-30-2012, 03:10 PM
Connors ruined Roddick.

MSK
09-30-2012, 03:14 PM
Ivan Lendl.


not

batz
09-30-2012, 03:14 PM
Lendl hasn't ruined any players, but he has ruined things for some TT posters.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3DM4rWbyY6MqvoIt7sujBAEN0rXmIf BBbdr0MhrghE5z_liVnhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTtMZ2TKktPEFEw6feEXAuq4fglPkDk 5n1XsHhnLH9NwdTf98x6ghttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ9fNyNmAUzDdSPuA2TS-JOJluC_iSrlW3Kz9Lud642N-8HGBKb

mmk
09-30-2012, 03:15 PM
Biggest coaching mistake ever: whoever decided that Sharapova should switch to playing right-handed.

Nathaniel_Near
09-30-2012, 03:26 PM
Lendl hasn't ruined any players, but he has ruined things for some TT posters.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3DM4rWbyY6MqvoIt7sujBAEN0rXmIf BBbdr0MhrghE5z_liVnhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTtMZ2TKktPEFEw6feEXAuq4fglPkDk 5n1XsHhnLH9NwdTf98x6ghttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ9fNyNmAUzDdSPuA2TS-JOJluC_iSrlW3Kz9Lud642N-8HGBKb

Lendl ruined Brad Gilbert so hard as a player that it unleashed the coaching beast within the Brad.

norbac
09-30-2012, 03:34 PM
Connors ruined Roddick.

Nah, that was Andy's brother who ruined him. Roddick actually showed a bit of a resurgence with Connors, winning in Cincinnati, reaching the US Open final while giving Roger a tough fight, and reaching the semis in Australia (beat down not withstanding).

Say Chi Sin Lo
09-30-2012, 03:36 PM
Lendl hasn't ruined any players, but he has ruined things for some TT posters.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3DM4rWbyY6MqvoIt7sujBAEN0rXmIf BBbdr0MhrghE5z_liVnhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTtMZ2TKktPEFEw6feEXAuq4fglPkDk 5n1XsHhnLH9NwdTf98x6ghttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ9fNyNmAUzDdSPuA2TS-JOJluC_iSrlW3Kz9Lud642N-8HGBKb

LOL!!! Great post!

SStrikerR
09-30-2012, 03:54 PM
Let's stick to pros, not juniors. Success in the juniors means nothing, especially at a young age. A 12 year old being nothing special by 19 isn't shocking. That happens all the time.

Gonzalito17
09-30-2012, 04:11 PM
I remember Andy Murray alluding something about his brother being miscoached when he was 12 or 13 or 14 and it ruined him.

Gonzalito17
09-30-2012, 04:12 PM
Nobody ruined Roddick the game just passed him by, or he hit his plateau earlier than certain other great players.

Gonzalito17
09-30-2012, 04:14 PM
Connors and Murray would have been an interesting combination, doubt Lendl is the only man who could have unlocked the major champion inside of Murray.

Clarky21
09-30-2012, 04:14 PM
We all hear about the success stories - Agassi and BG, Roddick and BG, Sampras and Tim Gullikson, Edberg and Pickard, Agassi and Nick Bollettieri. But coaches are not perfect and don't always get the job done, sometimes they fail with a player. I just heard of a a kid from Spain who at 12 won the big tourney in France at 11 and then defended the title at 12, not even Nadal did that. This kid was better than Nadal at 12. Then the coaches supposedly changed his game and they ruined the poor kid, now the kid is 19 and nothing special. Then there was Todd Martin who while paired with Djokovic and Fish got nothing accomplished. Not that Martin doesn't know tennis but he just didn't connect with those players and or perhaps they weren't ready to ascend. Bad timing.

We hear so many success stories about coaches who create champions and star players but there must be just as many examples of great young talents who were ruined because they had subpar or even bad coaching. Please discuss.... Thanks,

And just who is this phenom that you are talking about? If he was actually any good I am sure we would have heard about him by now.

jaggy
09-30-2012, 04:20 PM
Who was the left handed chick I think she was swiss and her coach was nuts, made her drink oranje juice all the time or something. Big skinny bint, cant rememember her name.

Sumo
09-30-2012, 04:23 PM
Let's stick to pros, not juniors. Success in the juniors means nothing, especially at a young age. A 12 year old being nothing special by 19 isn't shocking. That happens all the time.

Glad somebody said it.

dangalak
09-30-2012, 04:55 PM
Nobody ruined Roddick the game just passed him by, or he hit his plateau earlier than certain other great players.

I loathe it when people use the words "the game passed him by". It's code for "I know little and am trying to appear smart."

Who was the left handed chick I think she was swiss and her coach was nuts, made her drink oranje juice all the time or something. Big skinny bint, cant rememember her name.

Patty Schnyder? :)

davo81
09-30-2012, 05:04 PM
There are SO MANY crazy things to be told about Patty Schnyder and her "coaches". Unfortunately she likes to sue everybody hence I'll be quiet.

Zarfot Z
09-30-2012, 05:20 PM
Donald Young's parents = worst coaches by far.

They transformed their son from a Junior world number 1 to a 17 consecutive losing streak failure.

jaggy
09-30-2012, 05:29 PM
Yes it was Schnyder although im not sure what Id have worth suing for. A pair of Adidas Stan Smiths are about all I am worh

davo81
09-30-2012, 05:30 PM
Young is still top 160. I think other junior stars have done similarly or worse. Junior rankings are distorted by the fact that the true top juniors are already pros by that age. Interesting trivia fact: the guy who was year-end junior world number one the year after Young is exactly one spot below Young right now. The 2007 year-end junior world number one is top 90 right now - also not stellar. The 2008 year-end junior world number one is top 240 right now. The 2009 year-end junior world number one (almost 20 years old now) is top 730 right now. The 2010 year-end junior world number one (20 years old now) is top 540 now. The last year-end junior world number one that has been really successful is the one from 2004: GaŽl Monfils.

davo81
09-30-2012, 05:34 PM
Two Google Translations of Swiss newspaper articles about Patty Schnyder:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sport/tennis/SchnyderDebakel-Schulden-ein-Gatte-mit-Vergangenheit-und-eine-Autobiografie/story/13743801 (March 2011)

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.blick.ch/sport/tennis/pattys-katzenklo-ging-fuer-50-franken-raus-id1860872.html (April 2012)

thejackal
09-30-2012, 05:42 PM
And just who is this phenom that you are talking about? If he was actually any good I am sure we would have heard about him by now.

Sounds like carlos boluda. But then again he beat christian harrison at les petits as way back when because he was twice his size at age 12

Vcore89
09-30-2012, 09:44 PM
Connors ruined Roddick.

Fair to say Brad Gilbert ruined A-Rod's as well? Lendl at least took Murray where BG failed. Evidently, a coach whose strategy of winning ugly (pushing and all) is not to be mentioned in the same breadth as an 8-time winner (both Connors and Lendl achieved 8 GSes and 2 WCTs)?

Jonny S&V
09-30-2012, 10:09 PM
Fair to say Brad Gilbert ruined A-Rod's as well? Lendl at least took Murray where BG failed. Evidently, a coach whose strategy of winning ugly (pushing and all) is not to be mentioned in the same breadth as an 8-time winner (both Connors and Lendl achieved 8 GSes and 2 WCTs)?

...umm, no... #hisonlygrandslam

Bobby Jr
10-01-2012, 01:51 AM
I think you could argue that Bollettieri has ruined a series of players. He had tons of kids who had potential come through his system who turned out to be unimaginative ball-bashers. While they had some success I get the feeling that a few would have done better if their teaching had included more emphasis on match-craft.

decrepitude
10-01-2012, 02:34 AM
Not ruining a player exactly, but I always felt Stefanki ruined Tim Henman's serve. Pre Stefanki, Tim had a serve that was erratic but a weapon when it went in. Stefanki made it more safe by slowing it down to get a greater percentage in, but that left Tim without that weapon.

Mister drool
10-01-2012, 02:36 AM
Well... I'm a coatch, and i ruin my students all the time.
Its fine, they dont complaint.
AHAHA

but really, having a bad relation with the ONE person you have to rely on... Its bad in tennis and everywere else!

TennisLovaLova
10-01-2012, 02:57 AM
Well... I'm a coatch, and i ruin my students all the time.
Its fine, they dont complaint.
AHAHA

but really, having a bad relation with the ONE person you have to rely on... Its bad in tennis and everywere else!

I just hope you dont teach them orthograph/spelling :D

scotus
10-01-2012, 03:09 AM
Fair to say Brad Gilbert ruined A-Rod's as well? Lendl at least took Murray where BG failed. Evidently, a coach whose strategy of winning ugly (pushing and all) is not to be mentioned in the same breadth as an 8-time winner (both Connors and Lendl achieved 8 GSes and 2 WCTs)?

How did Brad Gilbert ruin Roddick's career?

Brad Gilbert never tried to turn Roddick into a pusher or grinder.

It was under Gilbert's tutelage that Roddick had the most formidable 1-2 punch of servce and forehand.

Roddick's sole slam win also came when Gilbert was coaching him.

Gilbert knew very well Roddick's strengths and weaknesses, and Gilbert wasn't so concerned about strengthening Roddick's weaknesses as much as about turning his strengths into world-class weapons and using them to exploit the weakness of his opponents.

If there was the single greatest mistake Roddick made in his career, it was dumping Gilbert that early in his career.

pound cat
10-01-2012, 03:15 AM
No coach ruins a player. The player hires and pays the coach and if the player isn't getting the results he wants with that coach, fire him and get someone else.

Mainad
10-01-2012, 05:40 AM
If there was the single greatest mistake Roddick made in his career, it was dumping Gilbert that early in his career.

Does anyone know the reason why he dumped him?

nereis
10-01-2012, 06:16 AM
Does anyone know the reason why he dumped him?

I believe it was end of 2004 when Roddick (contrary to his own expectations) didn't go on to be the next dominating force.

Ash_Smith
10-01-2012, 06:31 AM
Not ruining a player exactly, but I always felt Stefanki ruined Tim Henman's serve. Pre Stefanki, Tim had a serve that was erratic but a weapon when it went in. Stefanki made it more safe by slowing it down to get a greater percentage in, but that left Tim without that weapon.

This was the one that instantly jumped into my mind when I read the thread title.

Vcore89
10-01-2012, 06:55 AM
How did Brad Gilbert ruin Roddick's career?

Brad Gilbert never tried to turn Roddick into a pusher or grinder.

It was under Gilbert's tutelage that Roddick had the most formidable 1-2 punch of servce and forehand.

Roddick's sole slam win also came when Gilbert was coaching him.

Gilbert knew very well Roddick's strengths and weaknesses, and Gilbert wasn't so concerned about strengthening Roddick's weaknesses as much as about turning his strengths into world-class weapons and using them to exploit the weakness of his opponents.

If there was the single greatest mistake Roddick made in his career, it was dumping Gilbert that early in his career.

I'm sure A-Rod and BG had an amicable parting of ways but I'm pretty sure A-Rod wasn't amenable to what BG wanted him to be. BG thought there's much more to be had but A-Rod thinks otherwise. A-Rod's singular slam was a result of working with his brother more so than BG's mentoring.

Vcore89
10-01-2012, 06:59 AM
...umm, no... #hisonlygrandslam

...to date, yes but I think he is capable of collecting 3 and maybe 4 -- tops. Let's see at the end of his career or maybe in 4 years time.

Gonzalito17
10-01-2012, 07:26 AM
They did not part amicably. I remember not long after they split and BG interviewed Roddick on court after a win and Roddick was cold as ice, did not even acknowledge BG as his old pal. It was very cold and distant. There was clearly some issues there but since then they have worked it out and they do the friendly fist tap on TV after interviews now.

Gonzalito17
10-01-2012, 07:29 AM
Sounds like carlos boluda. But then again he beat christian harrison at les petits as way back when because he was twice his size at age 12

Yes it was Carlos Boluda, I heard he was a terror and a great player but coaches messed up his game by changing his backhand. Also probably the pressure and expectation of everyone expecting him to be better than Nadal and then when it doesn't happen, the mind falls apart. It's so hard to come up in tennis as the can't miss star, so much different when you come up unknown and don't have to deal with all the pressure and expectation and all eyes on you. Dreadful impossible pressure for a kid in his teens to deal with.

jrs
10-01-2012, 08:59 AM
Fathers of Jelana Dokic and Mary Pierece.

But lot of time the players don't have the dedication and discipline to become pros.

I once took lessons from coach who played at the ATP level - he said he was hired by junior to take her pro - but she just refused to work on what he wanted her to work on...he ended up being fired and she hired someone else ...and went no where...she's now teaching tennis at club level.

Tcbtennis
10-01-2012, 09:48 AM
Fair to say Brad Gilbert ruined A-Rod's as well? Lendl at least took Murray where BG failed. Evidently, a coach whose strategy of winning ugly (pushing and all) is not to be mentioned in the same breadth as an 8-time winner (both Connors and Lendl achieved 8 GSes and 2 WCTs)?

I would have to guess that you never read Brad Gilbert's book, Winning Ugly. You are not alone in misconstruing the essence of the book just based on its title. It is about how Brad Gilbert was able to win against some of the best players of his day (Connors, McEnroe, Sampras) not with a killer forehand or massive serve but with his ability to think on the tennis court. Hence, he states that he won ugly. It's not about pushing or gamesmanship at all, though a lot of people think that is what he is referring to. His book is perfect for the recreational tennis player and I think a lot of pros would gain something from reading this book also.

wilkinru
10-01-2012, 01:30 PM
I would have to guess that you never read Brad Gilbert's book, Winning Ugly. You are not alone in misconstruing the essence of the book just based on its title. It is about how Brad Gilbert was able to win against some of the best players of his day (Connors, McEnroe, Sampras) not with a killer forehand or massive serve but with his ability to think on the tennis court. Hence, he states that he won ugly. It's not about pushing or gamesmanship at all, though a lot of people think that is what he is referring to. His book is perfect for the recreational tennis player and I think a lot of pros would gain something from reading this book also.

True, but with weapons - Agassi - Brad took him to another level in his 30s.

He took Roddick to a USO win also, using the strengths and hiding the weaknesses with them.

Brad likely tried to show him more and get the backhand more consistent, he did not happen like he wanted and they split up.

thejackal
10-02-2012, 06:23 AM
Yes it was Carlos Boluda, I heard he was a terror and a great player but coaches messed up his game by changing his backhand. Also probably the pressure and expectation of everyone expecting him to be better than Nadal and then when it doesn't happen, the mind falls apart. It's so hard to come up in tennis as the can't miss star, so much different when you come up unknown and don't have to deal with all the pressure and expectation and all eyes on you. Dreadful impossible pressure for a kid in his teens to deal with.

its also not easy to make it on tour when you're 5'5 at age 12, and 5'7 at age 19. Id say that's just as big a factor if not bigger. he just didnt grow

nereis
10-02-2012, 06:25 AM
That's true. It's incredibly difficult to succeed on tour if you're below 5'11, and even then you're considered 'small.'

Consider that much of Nadal's success has been the fact that he matured incredibly early and burst onto the scene all muscles standing 6'2 at 16-17.

brettsticker86
10-02-2012, 06:50 AM
How did Brad Gilbert ruin Roddick's career?

Brad Gilbert never tried to turn Roddick into a pusher or grinder.

It was under Gilbert's tutelage that Roddick had the most formidable 1-2 punch of servce and forehand.

Roddick's sole slam win also came when Gilbert was coaching him.

Gilbert knew very well Roddick's strengths and weaknesses, and Gilbert wasn't so concerned about strengthening Roddick's weaknesses as much as about turning his strengths into world-class weapons and using them to exploit the weakness of his opponents.

If there was the single greatest mistake Roddick made in his career, it was dumping Gilbert that early in his career.

agree ten-fold. It was when roddick split with gilbert and started working with Dean Goldfine. It was then that roddick began the "i need to play high percentage, running the baseline tennis". Killed his game.

Hood_Man
10-02-2012, 06:56 AM
DamonK http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/ash_lee392/whistling.gif

Rock Strongo
10-02-2012, 07:56 AM
DamonK http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/ash_lee392/whistling.gif

Be kind to her, she's only 14 still!:)

jaggy
10-02-2012, 08:01 AM
Two Google Translations of Swiss newspaper articles about Patty Schnyder:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sport/tennis/SchnyderDebakel-Schulden-ein-Gatte-mit-Vergangenheit-und-eine-Autobiografie/story/13743801 (March 2011)

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.blick.ch/sport/tennis/pattys-katzenklo-ging-fuer-50-franken-raus-id1860872.html (April 2012)

Wow, thats pretty heavy

Hood_Man
10-02-2012, 08:27 AM
Be kind to her, she's only 14 still!:)

Relatives must save a fortune on birthday cards, they can just buy "14's" in bulk and send the same one every year :twisted:



But seriously though, poor girl :( And stubborn father :evil:

Dedans Penthouse
10-02-2012, 08:37 AM
Lee D on TW-TT


:razz:

serve stopper
10-02-2012, 10:21 AM
what about dinara safina's coach?