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View Full Version : Is Margaret Court (24 slams) the GOAT or don't slams matter?


RAFA2005RG
10-08-2012, 12:49 AM
Let me first say, there is no such thing as GOAT obviously, but people on the internet like to talk about their imaginary award, so let's say there is (just for the purpose of the internet).

I keep hearing people say Graf is the GOAT or Serena Williams is the GOAT. Do slams matter? If so, Margaret Court is GOAT with her 24 slams.

But a lot of people say Laver is the GOAT, so again, do slams matter?

Tennis sensation
10-08-2012, 12:59 AM
I see what you did there.. ;)

Rhino
10-08-2012, 01:24 AM
Margaret Court only had to play girls. If Federer only had to play girls he would have over 100 slams by now.

SystemicAnomaly
10-08-2012, 01:31 AM
Not only did Court win 24 single slams, she won 64 slam titles in all. These are both records that are unmatched by any other player, male or female. She also has numerous other slam records and overall records that are either matched or standalone (unmatched). She has the record for most single titles with 192 and has the record for Open era singles career winning percentage with 91.4% (593-56).

Considering total career achievements, Serena does not come close to the likes of Steffi and Margaret. While Serena is certainly one of the most talented players of the modern era, her career achievements do not stack up to these players. Even Chrissy and Martina N have career achievements that surpass Serena.

Gorecki
10-08-2012, 01:45 AM
Chattanooga Choo Choo is a song by Harry Warren (music) and Mack Gordon (words). It was recorded as a big-band/swing tune by Glenn Miller and His Orchestra and featured in the 1941 movie "Sun Valley Serenade". The song was an extended production number in the film. The Glenn Miller recording, RCA Bluebird B-11230-B, became the #1 song across the United States on December 7, 1941, and remained at #1 for nine weeks on the Billboard Best Sellers chart.

The 78-rpm was recorded on May 7, 1941 for RCA Victor's Bluebird label and became the first to be certified a gold disc on February 10, 1942, for sales of 1,200,000. The transcription of this award ceremony can be heard on the first of three volumes of RCA's "Legendary Performer" compilations released by RCA in the 1970s. In the early 1990s a two-channel recording of a portion of the Sun Valley Serenade soundtrack was discovered, allowing reconstruction of a true-stereo version of the film performance.

In 1996, the 1941 recording of "Chattanooga Choo Choo" by Glenn Miller and His Orchestra was inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame.





"Chattanooga Choo Choo, run it down again" – Glenn Miller (right) and his orchestra perform the song in Sun Valley Serenade. Tex Beneke is to the left of Miller
The song was written by the team of Mack Gordon and Harry Warren while traveling on the Southern Railway's Birmingham Special train. The song tells the story of traveling from New York City to Chattanooga. However, the inspiration for the song was a small, wood-burning steam locomotive of the 2-6-0 type which belonged to the Cincinnati Southern Railway, which is now part of the Norfolk Southern Railway system. That train is now a museum artifact (see below). From 1880, most trains bound for America's South passed through the southeastern Tennessee city of Chattanooga, often on to the super-hub of Atlanta. The Chattanooga Choo Choo did not refer to any particular train, though some[who?] have incorrectly asserted that it referred to Louisville and Nashville's Dixie Flyer or the Southern Railway's Crescent Limited.

Rhino
10-08-2012, 01:49 AM
Chattanooga Choo Choo is a song by Harry Warren (music) and Mack Gordon (words). It was recorded as a big-band/swing tune by Glenn Miller and His Orchestra and featured in the 1941 movie "Sun Valley Serenade". The song was an extended production number in the film. The Glenn Miller recording, RCA Bluebird B-11230-B, became the #1 song across the United States on December 7, 1941, and remained at #1 for nine weeks on the Billboard Best Sellers chart.

The 78-rpm was recorded on May 7, 1941 for RCA Victor's Bluebird label and became the first to be certified a gold disc on February 10, 1942, for sales of 1,200,000. The transcription of this award ceremony can be heard on the first of three volumes of RCA's "Legendary Performer" compilations released by RCA in the 1970s. In the early 1990s a two-channel recording of a portion of the Sun Valley Serenade soundtrack was discovered, allowing reconstruction of a true-stereo version of the film performance.

In 1996, the 1941 recording of "Chattanooga Choo Choo" by Glenn Miller and His Orchestra was inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame.





"Chattanooga Choo Choo, run it down again" Glenn Miller (right) and his orchestra perform the song in Sun Valley Serenade. Tex Beneke is to the left of Miller
The song was written by the team of Mack Gordon and Harry Warren while traveling on the Southern Railway's Birmingham Special train. The song tells the story of traveling from New York City to Chattanooga. However, the inspiration for the song was a small, wood-burning steam locomotive of the 2-6-0 type which belonged to the Cincinnati Southern Railway, which is now part of the Norfolk Southern Railway system. That train is now a museum artifact (see below). From 1880, most trains bound for America's South passed through the southeastern Tennessee city of Chattanooga, often on to the super-hub of Atlanta. The Chattanooga Choo Choo did not refer to any particular train, though some[who?] have incorrectly asserted that it referred to Louisville and Nashville's Dixie Flyer or the Southern Railway's Crescent Limited.

I am so sick of people on this board bringing up this tiresome argument.

Zarfot Z
10-08-2012, 02:04 AM
1. Court's 12 Australian Opens are highly overrated. AO at that time, is the equivalent of a Masters event on the WTA today.
2. A woman can never be GOAT in a male dominated sport.

Russeljones
10-08-2012, 03:17 AM
Court would retire in the second game of a hypothetical match with Serena. Serena is the GOAT because nobody in the history of the women's game could live with her on her best form.

In all seriousness, Slams count but there are individual records that are also indicative of a certain player's dominance. Add to this the context of a particular player's era(s) and you end up with the thick jam that is the GOAT discussion. :)

kragster
10-08-2012, 05:52 AM
Chattanooga Choo Choo is a song by Harry Warren (music) and Mack Gordon (words). It was recorded as a big-band/swing tune by Glenn Miller and His Orchestra and featured in the 1941 movie "Sun Valley Serenade". The song was an extended production number in the film. The Glenn Miller recording, RCA Bluebird B-11230-B, became the #1 song across the United States on December 7, 1941, and remained at #1 for nine weeks on the Billboard Best Sellers chart.

The 78-rpm was recorded on May 7, 1941 for RCA Victor's Bluebird label and became the first to be certified a gold disc on February 10, 1942, for sales of 1,200,000. The transcription of this award ceremony can be heard on the first of three volumes of RCA's "Legendary Performer" compilations released by RCA in the 1970s. In the early 1990s a two-channel recording of a portion of the Sun Valley Serenade soundtrack was discovered, allowing reconstruction of a true-stereo version of the film performance.

In 1996, the 1941 recording of "Chattanooga Choo Choo" by Glenn Miller and His Orchestra was inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame.





"Chattanooga Choo Choo, run it down again" Glenn Miller (right) and his orchestra perform the song in Sun Valley Serenade. Tex Beneke is to the left of Miller
The song was written by the team of Mack Gordon and Harry Warren while traveling on the Southern Railway's Birmingham Special train. The song tells the story of traveling from New York City to Chattanooga. However, the inspiration for the song was a small, wood-burning steam locomotive of the 2-6-0 type which belonged to the Cincinnati Southern Railway, which is now part of the Norfolk Southern Railway system. That train is now a museum artifact (see below). From 1880, most trains bound for America's South passed through the southeastern Tennessee city of Chattanooga, often on to the super-hub of Atlanta. The Chattanooga Choo Choo did not refer to any particular train, though some[who?] have incorrectly asserted that it referred to Louisville and Nashville's Dixie Flyer or the Southern Railway's Crescent Limited.


This is typical **** talk. We have heard this argument used over and over and it still doesn't make sense. Your argument is flawed because the term "sea urchin" refers to the "regular echinoids", which are symmetrical and globular. The term includes several different taxonomic groups: the order Echinoida, the order Cidaroida or "slate-pencil urchins", which have very thick, blunt spines, and others. Besides sea urchins, the class Echinoidea also includes three groups of "irregular" echinoids: flattened sand dollars, sea biscuits, and heart urchins.
Together with sea cucumbers (Holothuroidea), they make up the subphylum Echinozoa, which is characterized by a globoid shape without arms or projecting rays. Sea cucumbers and the irregular echinoids have secondarily evolved diverse shapes. Although many sea cucumbers have branched tentacles surrounding the oral opening, these have originated from modified tube feet and are not homologous to the arms of the crinoids, sea stars, and brittle stars.

Gorecki
10-08-2012, 07:03 AM
This is typical **** talk. We have heard this argument used over and over and it still doesn't make sense. Your argument is flawed because the term "sea urchin" refers to the "regular echinoids", which are symmetrical and globular. The term includes several different taxonomic groups: the order Echinoida, the order Cidaroida or "slate-pencil urchins", which have very thick, blunt spines, and others. Besides sea urchins, the class Echinoidea also includes three groups of "irregular" echinoids: flattened sand dollars, sea biscuits, and heart urchins.
Together with sea cucumbers (Holothuroidea), they make up the subphylum Echinozoa, which is characterized by a globoid shape without arms or projecting rays. Sea cucumbers and the irregular echinoids have secondarily evolved diverse shapes. Although many sea cucumbers have branched tentacles surrounding the oral opening, these have originated from modified tube feet and are not homologous to the arms of the crinoids, sea stars, and brittle stars.

Non Sense... anyone with a minimal knowledge in the world of home brewing can tell you that Dunkel, along with helles, is a traditional style brewed in Munich and popular throughout Bavaria. With alcohol concentrations of 4.5% to 6% by volume, dunkels are weaker than Doppelbocks, another traditional dark Bavarian beer. Dunkels are produced using Munich malts which give the Dunkel its colour. Other malts or flavours may also be added.

Dunkels were the original style of the Bavarian villages and countryside. Lighter-coloured lagers were not common until the later part of the 19th century when technological advances made them easier to produce.

Dunkels have a distinctive malty flavour that comes from a special brewing technique called decoction mashing.

Most commonly, dunkel beers are dark lagers, but the term is also used to refer to dark wheat beers such as Franziskaner Hefe-Weisse Dunkel. Dunkel weizen is another term used to refer to dark wheat beers, which are fruity and sweet with more dark, roasted malts than their lighter counterpart, the hefeweizen.

bluetrain4
10-08-2012, 08:18 AM
1. Court's 12 Australian Opens are highly overrated. AO at that time, is the equivalent of a Masters event on the WTA today.
2. A woman can never be GOAT in a male dominated sport.

Oh god, you KNOW that the thread in in reference to the greatest woman, not the overall greatest player. But, you had to make your little comment.

RF20Lennon
10-08-2012, 08:33 AM
For me either steffi or Martina GOAT of women's tennis

NadalAgassi
10-08-2012, 08:47 AM
Very few seem to consider Margaret Court the GOAT, rightly or wrongly. It is pretty evident though from commentators, writers, and various fans why she isnt. That is because 11 of her slam titles came at the Australian Open which back then, especialy for women, was often a depleted event with sparse fields. For instance Margaret Court won only 3 Wimbledons and 5 U.S Opens, yet 11 Australian Opens. All 3 events were played on grass to the differential really stands out. Margaret Court won 4 of her Australian Open finals over Jan Lehane, one by a walkover, one by a retirement, one over Lesley Turner a clay court specialist who would never be in a major grass final anywhere else, and one over Kerry Melville whose only ever slam win was an Australian Open (again with virtually all absent and Court now retired) in 77. She has a Grand Slam but so do Steffi Graf and Maureen Connolly, and Graf is who most rate as the GOAT anyway it seems. Martina Navratilova who many also rate as the female GOAT won 6 slams in a row which some rate as valuable as the true Grand Slam. With 3 Wimbledons only on her best surface though, and a weaker Wimbledon record than the clay GOAT Chris Evert, she is not likely to have alot of backing as the GOAT.

kiki
10-08-2012, 09:33 AM
Maybe the opposition did not dare go to AO and meet her...

TMF
10-08-2012, 10:26 AM
Maybe the opposition did not dare go to AO and meet her...

If that's true, then that further proved the field was depleted.


All historians/experts don't consider Court's 24 slams is the benchmark because the field was weak, especially the 11 AO. Everyone considered Graf's 22 slams is the record holder, a standard for every great female players is measure to. Like the men's tennis, the competition in the WTA today vs. the 60s is different as night and day.

Gizo
10-08-2012, 10:35 AM
She has a Grand Slam but so do Steffi Graf and Maureen Connolly, and Graf is who most rate as the GOAT anyway it seems. Martina Navratilova who many also rate as the female GOAT won 6 slams in a row which some rate as valuable as the true Grand Slam.

Remember thought that Court also won 6 majors in a row, the 1969 US Open, the 1970 grand slam and then the 1971 Australian Open.

You can argue that Court's 6 majors in a row with a calendar grand slam in 1969-1971 is better than both Navrtilova's 6 majors in a row with no calendar grand slam in 1983-1984, and Graf's 5 majors in a row with a calendar grand slam in 1988-1989.

In those days, the grand slam was seen as the holy grail of tennis and after she won 3 out of the 4 majors in 1962, 1965 and 1969, people were wondering if she had missed her best opportunities to win all 4 in one year, but of course she proved them wrong the following year.

RoddickAce
10-08-2012, 10:36 AM
Non Sense... anyone with a minimal knowledge in the world of home brewing can tell you that Dunkel, along with helles, is a traditional style brewed in Munich and popular throughout Bavaria. With alcohol concentrations of 4.5% to 6% by volume, dunkels are weaker than Doppelbocks, another traditional dark Bavarian beer. Dunkels are produced using Munich malts which give the Dunkel its colour. Other malts or flavours may also be added.

Dunkels were the original style of the Bavarian villages and countryside. Lighter-coloured lagers were not common until the later part of the 19th century when technological advances made them easier to produce.

Dunkels have a distinctive malty flavour that comes from a special brewing technique called decoction mashing.

Most commonly, dunkel beers are dark lagers, but the term is also used to refer to dark wheat beers such as Franziskaner Hefe-Weisse Dunkel. Dunkel weizen is another term used to refer to dark wheat beers, which are fruity and sweet with more dark, roasted malts than their lighter counterpart, the hefeweizen.

It is now time to bring out...the Pakin Automatic Complaint Generator.

vive le beau jeu !
10-08-2012, 10:49 AM
Non Sense... anyone with a minimal knowledge in the world of home brewing can tell you that Dunkel, along with helles, is a traditional style brewed in Munich and popular throughout Bavaria. With alcohol concentrations of 4.5% to 6% by volume, dunkels are weaker than Doppelbocks, another traditional dark Bavarian beer. Dunkels are produced using Munich malts which give the Dunkel its colour. Other malts or flavours may also be added.

Dunkels were the original style of the Bavarian villages and countryside. Lighter-coloured lagers were not common until the later part of the 19th century when technological advances made them easier to produce.

Dunkels have a distinctive malty flavour that comes from a special brewing technique called decoction mashing.

Most commonly, dunkel beers are dark lagers, but the term is also used to refer to dark wheat beers such as Franziskaner Hefe-Weisse Dunkel. Dunkel weizen is another term used to refer to dark wheat beers, which are fruity and sweet with more dark, roasted malts than their lighter counterpart, the hefeweizen.
If you weren't blinded by your chronical chattanoogardism and your hate for sea cucumbers, you would admit that traditional waffle irons are attached to tongs with wooden handles and are held over an open flame, or set on a stove. Most modern waffle irons are self-contained tabletop electrical appliances, heated by an electric heating element controlled by an internal thermostat. Professional waffle makers are usually made of cast-iron whereas domestic models are made of teflon instead. Many have a light that goes off when the iron is at the set temperature. Most modern waffle irons - particularly teflon and cast aluminum ones - are coated with a non-stick coating to prevent the waffles from sticking to them. Cast-iron waffle makers are usually not coated and require seasoning instead.

Safety concern:
Waffles irons, when unproperly used, can inflict severe injuries to imaginjury-prone tennis players.

RoddickAce
10-08-2012, 11:01 AM
If you weren't blinded by your chronical chattanoogardism and your hate for sea cucumbers, you would admit that traditional waffle irons are attached to tongs with wooden handles and are held over an open flame, or set on a stove. Most modern waffle irons are self-contained tabletop electrical appliances, heated by an electric heating element controlled by an internal thermostat. Professional waffle makers are usually made of cast-iron whereas domestic models are made of teflon instead. Many have a light that goes off when the iron is at the set temperature. Most modern waffle irons - particularly teflon and cast aluminum ones - are coated with a non-stick coating to prevent the waffles from sticking to them. Cast-iron waffle makers are usually not coated and require seasoning instead.

Safety concern:
Waffles irons, when unproperly used, can inflict severe injuries to imaginjury-prone tennis players.

LOL you guys are hilarious

tennis_pro
10-08-2012, 11:16 AM
So many new useless threads, makes you wanna throw in a random gif.

http://www.karachan.org/b/src/134972218116.gif

kishnabe
10-08-2012, 11:21 AM
Goreckis, Krag, VLB......made this thread interesting.

dangalak
10-08-2012, 02:44 PM
Back then, slams weren't the big deal. Nobody would put as much value in AO as today.

The GOAT is probably Navratilova.

Dean
10-08-2012, 06:00 PM
Very few seem to consider Margaret Court the GOAT, rightly or wrongly. It is pretty evident though from commentators, writers, and various fans why she isnt. That is because 11 of her slam titles came at the Australian Open which back then, especialy for women, was often a depleted event with sparse fields. For instance Margaret Court won only 3 Wimbledons and 5 U.S Opens, yet 11 Australian Opens. All 3 events were played on grass to the differential really stands out. Margaret Court won 4 of her Australian Open finals over Jan Lehane, one by a walkover, one by a retirement, one over Lesley Turner a clay court specialist who would never be in a major grass final anywhere else, and one over Kerry Melville whose only ever slam win was an Australian Open (again with virtually all absent and Court now retired) in 77. She has a Grand Slam but so do Steffi Graf and Maureen Connolly, and Graf is who most rate as the GOAT anyway it seems. Martina Navratilova who many also rate as the female GOAT won 6 slams in a row which some rate as valuable as the true Grand Slam. With 3 Wimbledons only on her best surface though, and a weaker Wimbledon record than the clay GOAT Chris Evert, she is not likely to have alot of backing as the GOAT.

It's important to remember that she didn't play hardly at all in 1967, '72 and '74 as she was having children. A lot of that time were her peak years. Was still able to come back and win grand slams.

Gorecki
10-09-2012, 10:09 AM
If you weren't blinded by your chronical chattanoogardism and your hate for sea cucumbers, you would admit that traditional waffle irons are attached to tongs with wooden handles and are held over an open flame, or set on a stove. Most modern waffle irons are self-contained tabletop electrical appliances, heated by an electric heating element controlled by an internal thermostat. Professional waffle makers are usually made of cast-iron whereas domestic models are made of teflon instead. Many have a light that goes off when the iron is at the set temperature. Most modern waffle irons - particularly teflon and cast aluminum ones - are coated with a non-stick coating to prevent the waffles from sticking to them. Cast-iron waffle makers are usually not coated and require seasoning instead.

Safety concern:
Waffles irons, when unproperly used, can inflict severe injuries to imaginjury-prone tennis players.

http://www.ourbeagleworld.com/forums/attachments/beagle-discussion/6878d1272183970-beagles-progressive-manipulation-exhibit-mutley1.jpg