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Fedfan34
10-15-2012, 09:25 AM
So apparently, Roger holds the all time record for *consecutive* weeks at world no. 1 with 237, roughly 4.5 years straight (damn). The all time (male and female) record for total weeks at world #1 is 377 held by the great Steffi Graf. Roger would need to hold onto his ranking until the end of this year (already looking unlikely) and then some.

Of course, Roger has a few things on his side, ungodly talent for one, motivation to keep at it for another, and the fact that even if he loses his ranking sometime soon, he'll be neck in neck to be able to get it back from the Djoker.

So what do you think? Yes, no, hayyll no?

jones101
10-15-2012, 09:26 AM
Steffi actually has 377 not 337,

6-1 6-3 6-0
10-15-2012, 09:28 AM
If you're comparing men's tennis to women's tennis, then you may as well compare number of grand slams won too, as well as factors such as who won the Career Golden Grand Slam (Nadal, Agassi, Graf, S. Williams).

RF20Lennon
10-15-2012, 09:31 AM
If you're comparing men's tennis to women's tennis, then you may as well compare number of grand slams won too, as well as factors such as who won the Career Golden Grand Slam (Nadal, Agassi, Graf, S. Williams).

Agreed both are different you can't compare

No1e
10-15-2012, 09:44 AM
So apparently, Roger holds the all time record for *consecutive* weeks at world no. 1 with 237, roughly 4.5 years straight (damn). The all time (male and female) record for total weeks at world #1 is 337 held by the great Steffi Graf. Roger would need to hold onto his ranking until the end of this year (already looking unlikely) and then some.

Of course, Roger has a few things on his side, ungodly talent for one, motivation to keep at it for another, and the fact that even if he loses his ranking sometime soon, he'll be neck in neck to be able to get it back from the Djoker.

So what do you think? Yes, no, hayyll no?

Big FAIL. Dig a hole and hide yourself.

Fedfan34
10-15-2012, 10:05 AM
Big FAIL. Dig a hole and hide yourself.

See what I did there ;)

tennis_pro
10-15-2012, 10:21 AM
I don't think he can do it. Unfortunately for Federer, he didn't (doesn't) have the privilege of his greatest rival being stabbed in the back and out of the game for 3 years. Quite the opposite, he's got 3 big rivals now, 5-6 years younger than him and all of them are super consistent.

300 weeks at no 1 in the men's tour is worth like 3 million weeks at no 1 in the WTA.

The Bawss
10-15-2012, 10:25 AM
I don't think he can do it. Unfortunately for Federer, he didn't (doesn't) have the privilege of his greatest rival being stabbed in the back and out of the game for 3 years. Quite the opposite, he's got 3 big rivals now, 5-6 years than him and all of them are super consistent.

300 weeks at no 1 in the men's tour is worth like 3 million weeks at no 1 in the WTA.

Finally someone talking sense. The fact that Federer is approaching the numbers of the joke WTA is an achievement in itself.

powerangle
10-15-2012, 11:13 AM
So apparently, Roger holds the all time record for *consecutive* weeks at world no. 1 with 237, roughly 4.5 years straight (damn). The all time (male and female) record for total weeks at world #1 is 377 held by the great Steffi Graf. Roger would need to hold onto his ranking until the end of this year (already looking unlikely) and then some.

Of course, Roger has a few things on his side, ungodly talent for one, motivation to keep at it for another, and the fact that even if he loses his ranking sometime soon, he'll be neck in neck to be able to get it back from the Djoker.

So what do you think? Yes, no, hayyll no?

Neither "yes" or "hayyll no". It's just very unlikely, but possible. Fed won't finish this year #1, which is all but guaranteed. But he has a decent shot at getting the #1 back in the beginning of next year, if he improves his AO performance and Novak fails to defend the title. Roger will need some cooperation from the rest of the top players, that's for sure.

So it's doable, but improbable at this point.

NadalAgassi
10-15-2012, 05:24 PM
The real record for men and women combined is Navratilova as Graf's is knife only based. I dont know Navratilovas exact total but if it is more than Federer's one of in a couple weeks times (which is pretty much certain to end then) then probably not as his returning to #1 at this point is unlikely. Then again he might already be over Navratilova's real mark, I dont remember how much Graf's phony total surpassed Navratilova's real one by.

NadalAgassi
10-15-2012, 05:26 PM
I don't think he can do it. Unfortunately for Federer, he didn't (doesn't) have the privilege of his greatest rival being stabbed in the back and out of the game for 3 years. Quite the opposite, he's got 3 big rivals now, 5-6 years younger than him and all of them are super consistent.

300 weeks at no 1 in the men's tour is worth like 3 million weeks at no 1 in the WTA.

Graf is the luckiest player ever, man or women. Coming into her prime right when Navratilova and Evert were well into their 30s. Her biggest contemporary rival Sabatini being a huge choker, especialy vs Graf. Her main rival who dominates the game for 3 years being stabbed. Then conveniently being injured when the new guard come, and conveniently retiring before really start making her look bad.

90's Clay
10-15-2012, 05:45 PM
I don't think he can do it. Unfortunately for Federer, he didn't (doesn't) have the privilege of his greatest rival being stabbed in the back and out of the game for 3 years. Quite the opposite, he's got 3 big rivals now, 5-6 years younger than him and all of them are super consistent.

300 weeks at no 1 in the men's tour is worth like 3 million weeks at no 1 in the WTA.



Nadal is out for the half of the season at a time and is broken down, bruised and battered. . And hasn't won anything off of clay in 2 YEARS. :neutral:. Not much of a difference really.

I doubt he can hold off the other two though.. I agree.

NadalAgassi
10-16-2012, 11:57 AM
Stupid post is stupid.

Yes the stabbing in no way aided Graf's career and achievement. Hence why even those who consider her as GOAT never talk about her career without mentioning it. Sorry that is something that will follow Graf forever and always put an asterix of sorts on some of her numbers. It was unprecedented in womens or mens tennis, and still is to this day (and hopefully forever will be).

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 12:16 PM
Yes the stabbing in no way aided Graf's career and achievement. Hence why even those who consider her as GOAT never talk about her career without mentioning it. Sorry that is something that will follow Graf forever and always put an asterix of sorts on some of her numbers. It was unprecedented in womens or mens tennis, and still is to this day (and hopefully forever will be).

The stabbing is undoubtedly the worst thing to ever take place on a Tennis court. And sure, Graf's career probably did benefit from it. But you can't say for sure. Just because Seles rules for 1 or 2 years doesn't mean she would have or could have sustained it. Again, she very well could have. But we're talking "what if"s here. It didn't work out that way, through no fault of Seles's. I could just as easily say I would've won 30 Grand Slams if I hadn't broken my leg in 10th grade or something. Look at Hingis. She was touted to be the next big thing in 1997 and look at her career after that. It's like they say, "if your aunt had bollocks, she'd be your uncle." But you don't call your aunt "aunt-who-could've-been-my-uncle" with an asterix next to your uncle now, do you? If you do, no argument, you win. If not, acknowledge that Graf achieved more in Tennis than any woman in history and also displayed a level of play that is pretty much unmatched. And move on.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 12:41 PM
The stabbing is undoubtedly the worst thing to ever take place on a Tennis court. And sure, Graf's career probably did benefit from it. But you can't say for sure. Just because Seles rules for 1 or 2 years doesn't mean she would have or could have sustained it. Again, she very well could have. But we're talking "what if"s here. It didn't work out that way, through no fault of Seles's. I could just as easily say I would've won 30 Grand Slams if I hadn't broken my leg in 10th grade or something. Look at Hingis. She was touted to be the next big thing in 1997 and look at her career after that. It's like they say, "if your aunt had bollocks, she'd be your uncle." But you don't call your aunt "aunt-who-could've-been-my-uncle" with an asterix next to your uncle now, do you? If you do, no argument, you win. If not, acknowledge that Graf achieved more in Tennis than any woman in history and also displayed a level of play that is pretty much unmatched. And move on.

It wasn't just 1 brilliant season that Seles had.

She won the French Open as a 16-year old in 1990, then dominated 1991 winning 3 out of 3 majors, won 3 majors again in 1992 (and lost in the final of the 4th), then in 1993 she beat Graf playing at her absolute best in the Australian Open final. So there you have it, 3 seasons and going into a 4th.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 12:43 PM
It wasn't just 1 brilliant season that Seles had.

She won the French Open as a 16-year old in 1990, then dominated 1991 winning 3 out of 3 majors, won 3 majors again in 1992 (and lost in the final of the 4th), then in 1993 she beat Graf playing at her absolute best in the Australian Open final. So there you have it, 3 seasons and going into a 4th.

How many years did she "rule"? That's the word I used, "rule". You haven't ruled a season if you've only won 1 or 2 Grand Slams, however impressive a feat that might be.

NadalAgassi
10-16-2012, 01:00 PM
The stabbing is undoubtedly the worst thing to ever take place on a Tennis court. And sure, Graf's career probably did benefit from it. But you can't say for sure. Just because Seles rules for 1 or 2 years doesn't mean she would have or could have sustained it. Again, she very well could have. But we're talking "what if"s here. It didn't work out that way, through no fault of Seles's. I could just as easily say I would've won 30 Grand Slams if I hadn't broken my leg in 10th grade or something. Look at Hingis. She was touted to be the next big thing in 1997 and look at her career after that. It's like they say, "if your aunt had bollocks, she'd be your uncle." But you don't call your aunt "aunt-who-could've-been-my-uncle" with an asterix next to your uncle now, do you? If you do, no argument, you win. If not, acknowledge that Graf achieved more in Tennis than any woman in history and also displayed a level of play that is pretty much unmatched. And move on.

Lets put it this way. We dont know Graf would have won only 11-13 slams without the stabbing (she had 11 at the time of it). We do not know Monica Seles was the certain GOAT without the stabbing either. What we do know there is no way in hell Graf still would have won 22 though, and it is very unlikely she would have even passed Martina and Chris who each have 18. Her main claim to GOAT status, the 4 slams at each of the 4 slam events would be almost certainly be gone too (she would have needed all of 1 more Australian, 2 more French Opens, 2 more U.S Opens, when Seles won all those events about 3 times in a row pre stabbing, and when Graf had only about 3 years of healthy top level tennis left).

NadalAgassi
10-16-2012, 01:03 PM
How many years did she "rule"? That's the word I used, "rule". You haven't ruled a season if you've only won 1 or 2 Grand Slams, however impressive a feat that might be.

Before the stabbing she won:

-the last 3 French Opens
-the last 3 Australian Opens
-the last 3 WTA Year End Championships
-the last 2 U.S Opens
-2 of the last 3 Miami Championships

That seems to be a pretty undisputed 3 years of rule to me. Now if it isnt to you I am afraid I dont quite know what is. Grass was Graf's only savior at that point.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 01:07 PM
Lets put it this way. We dont know Graf would have won only 11-13 slams without the stabbing (she had 11 at the time of it). We do not know Monica Seles was the certain GOAT without the stabbing either. What we do know there is no way in hell she would have won 22 though, and it is very unlikely she would have even passed Martina and Chris who each have 18. Her main claim to GOAT status, the 4 slams at each of the 4 slam events would be almost certainly be gone too (she would have needed all of 1 more Australian, 2 more French Opens, 2 more U.S Opens, when Seles won all those events about 3 times in a row pre stabbing, and when Graf had only about 3 years of healthy top level tennis left).

Again, you don't know. When Seles was dominating, Graf was in a bit of a rough patch, failing to make Grand Slam finals. It's not like she was losing repeatedly to Seles. She held her own the few times they did meet during Seles's dominance. While it would be logical to assume Graf wouldn't have 22 Slams if it hadn't been for the stabbing, you can't just take it for granted. Just because Seles was stabbed when she was really going hot, you can't say, "Hey, she'd have won 10 more Slams the way she was going so let's give them to her." You never know with Tennis. If someone had told me in 2010 that Djokovic would go on an insane winning spree in 2011 clobbering Nadal, Federer and Murray across all surfaces, I'd have laughed in their face. And look what happened. Tennis is unpredictable. And it's not just Graf's 22 Slams that matter. There's more to her career than just that.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 01:10 PM
Before the stabbing she won:

-the last 3 French Opens
-the last 3 Australian Opens
-the last 3 WTA Year End Championships
-the last 2 U.S Opens
-2 of the last 3 Miami Championships

That seems to be a pretty undisputed 3 years of rule to me. Now if it isnt to you I am afraid I dont quite know what is. Grass was Graf's only savior at that point.

1990 - 1 Slam
1991 - 3 Slams
1992 - 3 Slams
1993 - 1 Slam

3 years of rule, eh?

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 01:20 PM
Anyway, you're missing the point. I could say Federer's records are all "phoney" because I broke my leg in 10th grade :) See how stupid I'd sound? You sounded even more stupid with your post.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 01:25 PM
How many years did she "rule"? That's the word I used, "rule". You haven't ruled a season if you've only won 1 or 2 Grand Slams, however impressive a feat that might be.

Come on, Seles won 8 of her last 11 majors before she was stabbed, those are Federer-like numbers.

How much much more of a "ruling" you need? She's not like Hingis who had 1 brilliant year and then only won 2 majors afterwards.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 01:32 PM
Anyway, you're missing the point. I could say Federer's records are all "phoney" because I broke my leg in 10th grade :) See how stupid I'd sound? You sounded even more stupid with your post.

Seles' record in 1990-1993 was 215-19, that's 92 % of matches won. I don't what Seles should've done/won so you called that "ruling" - like winning every match without losing a set?

It's pretty clear to me that Graf benefitted big time from the Seles stabbing. Already in 1990 as a 16-year old she started winning majors (and beat Graf en route), then won 6 of the 7 majors she played in 1992-1993 (reached the final of the only won she didn't win), beat Graf at her absolute peak in the 1993 AO final and got stabbed afterwards. At that point Seles was going for the GOAT title.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 01:34 PM
1990 - 1 Slam
1991 - 3 Slams
1992 - 3 Slams
1993 - 1 Slam

3 years of rule, eh?

It doesn't have to be 3 calendar years from January till December.
From June 1990 till early/mid 1993 Seles was ruling in the WTA, there's no-one denying that.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 01:36 PM
Come on, Seles won 8 of her last 11 majors before she was stabbed, those are Federer-like numbers.

How much much more of a "ruling" you need? She's not like Hingis who had 1 brilliant year and then only won 2 majors afterwards.

Look, let me make this simple. The stabbing of Seles is a reality. It happened. It's not a hypothetical. It's as real as Sampras being 10 years older than Federer is. Putting an asterix next to Graf's achievements because of the Seles stabbing is as absurd as putting an asterix next to Federer's achievements because Sampras wasn't the same age (and hasn't played in the same era) as Federer. What happened, no matter how terrible it was, has happened. It can't be changed. Face reality. The reality is that Graf won 22 Slams, many of them in Seles's absence, just like Federer won 17, all in Sampras's absence. Graf's records are no more "phoney" than Federer's.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 01:38 PM
It doesn't have to be 3 calendar years from January till December.
From June 1990 till early/mid 1993 Seles was ruling in the WTA, there's no-one denying that.

That's the same as saying Federer has been ruling the ATP from 1900 to 2012. He does have the most Grand Slams and a high number of top tier titles in that period.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 01:38 PM
Or let's put it into context.

Seles was winning just about every major (bar one) since the 1991 Australian Open, beating Graf in 3 of those finals, wins the 1993 Australian Open beating peakest of peaks Graf in the final, gets stabbed afterwards and is out of the game for another 3 years. Meanwhile Graf by some weird accident finds her form and after the Seles stabbing wins the next 4 majors. You're telling me that Graf wins the 1993 FO, 1993 Wimbledon, 1993 US open and 1994 AO with Seles around?

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 01:40 PM
That's the same as saying Federer has been ruling the ATP from 1900 to 2012. He does have the most Grand Slams and a high number of top tier titles in that period.

What is your definition of "ruling", then?

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 01:40 PM
Seles' record in 1990-1993 was 215-19, that's 92 % of matches won. I don't what Seles should've done/won so you called that "ruling" - like winning every match without losing a set?

It's pretty clear to me that Graf benefitted big time from the Seles stabbing. Already in 1990 as a 16-year old she started winning majors (and beat Graf en route), then won 6 of the 7 majors she played in 1992-1993 (reached the final of the only won she didn't win), beat Graf at her absolute peak in the 1993 AO final and got stabbed afterwards. At that point Seles was going for the GOAT title.

You do realize one could the make the exact same argument for Nadal against Federer, right? Nadal's knees would be Seles's stabbing.

Pete.Sampras.
10-16-2012, 01:41 PM
The "Graf-Seles" debate always seems to come up as soon as something positive is said about Graf. It's always nothing but "if..." but it seems people on this board never get tired of it.

Seriously, we will never know and Prisoner's second post sums the whole thing up pretty well. This thread is not about Graf and Seles. It's about Federer and his chance to achieve something. In no way did the OP ask what any of us think about Graf's career and this whole discussion about what would have happened if Seles..... is off topic.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 01:42 PM
You do realize one could the make the exact same argument for Nadal against Federer, right? Nadal's knees would be Seles's stabbing.

Nadal knows the dagner of his style of play, there are hundreds of people who predicted him having health issues by the time he gets older (me included). Now name me 1 person who predicted Seles beings stabbed.

Seles being out for 3 years has nothing to do with her game.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 01:42 PM
Or let's put it into context.

Seles was winning just about every major (bar one) since the 1991 Australian Open, beating Graf in 3 of those finals, wins the 1993 Australian Open beating peakest of peaks Graf in the final, gets stabbed afterwards and is out of the game for another 3 years. Meanwhile Graf by some weird accident finds her form and after the Seles stabbing wins the next 4 majors. You're telling me that Graf wins the 1993 FO, 1993 Wimbledon, 1993 US open and 1994 AO with Seles around?

Graf made all the Grand Slam finals in 1993, something she didn't manage since 1989. Don't you think there's more at play here than Seles's stabbing?

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 01:45 PM
Nadal knows the dagner of his style of play, there are hundreds of people who predicted him having health issues by the time he gets older (me included). Now name me 1 person who predicted Seles beings stabbed.

Seles being out for 3 years has nothing to do with her game.

Oh, so if Seles had bullfighting as one of her pastimes (which would make a stab by a bull more predictable) and was stabbed, that would somehow detract from Seles's greatness as a Tennis player? Just because one could have predicted she would be stabbed? You're getting ridiculous. Nadal had to put extra pressure on his knees because of the condition with his foot, not because he enjoyed mutilating his legs.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 01:46 PM
Graf made all the Grand Slam finals in 1993, something she didn't manage since 1989. Don't you think there's more at play here than Seles's stabbing?

It's a completely different game when you know there's no-one in the draw who can hurt you. There's a big probability that Federer lost his 2010 and 2011 US open semis to Djokovic because he had Nadal at the back of his mind. Or look a bit back - Nadal lost early at the FO in 2009, withdrew from Wimbledon, lost before the final of the US open, lost early in the 2010 AO, who benefitted? Federer, who was 2 points away from winning all of the 4 aforementioned majors.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 01:49 PM
Oh, so if Seles had bullfighting as one of her pastimes (which would make a stab by a bull more predictable) and was stabbed, that would somehow detract from Seles's greatness as a Tennis player? Just because one could have predicted she would be stabbed? You're getting ridiculous.

Dude you're the one getting riddiculous. Once again, a stabbing of a player isn't something that occurs every day, it just isn't normal. There are tons of players who you knew would be burned out later in their careers like Hewitt, Chang, (probably) Nadal. Seles was a teen at the time of the stabbing and in the middle of her domination (over Graf as well).

Nadal had to put extra pressure on his knees because of the condition with his foot, not because he enjoyed mutilating his legs.

What bullcrap, Nadal still ran like a rabbit for years despite his condition. There isn't a single body in the entire universe that wouldn't take a toll from running left and right for 8 years, Seles was still a youngster and would probably continue her ownage for another few years if it wasn't for a freak who get jealous of another player beating the crap out of her countrywoman.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 01:50 PM
It's a completely different game when you know there's no-one in the draw who can hurt you. There's a big probability that Federer lost his 2010 and 2011 US open semis to Djokovic because he had Nadal at the back of his mind. Or look a bit back - Nadal lost early at the FO in 2009, withdrew from Wimbledon, lost before the final of the US open, lost early in the 2010 AO, who benefitted? Federer, who was 2 points away from winning all of the 4 aforementioned majors.

That's just one of the stupid things fanboys say. So Federer worked hard all through those two matches, got a couple of match points in both of them, and then lost the matches because he suddenly thought of Nadal and got cold feet?

Federer may have benefitted from Nadal's knee-condition just like Graf may have benefitted from the Seles stabbing. No one knows for sure. Any one who claims otherwise either has a crystalball or is deluded.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 01:53 PM
Dude you're the one getting riddiculous. Once again, a stabbing of a player isn't something that occurs every day, it just isn't normal. There are tons of players who you knew would be burned out later in their careers like Hewitt, Chang, (probably) Nadal. Seles was a teen at the time of the stabbing and in the middle of her domination (over Graf as well).

How the heck does it matter if it's "normal" or not? How does that change things? What if Seles just lost interest and retired the day before the incident happened, would that change things? Why does it matter if it's a stabbing or an injury?

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 01:55 PM
Dude you're the one getting riddiculous. Once again, a stabbing of a player isn't something that occurs every day, it just isn't normal. There are tons of players who you knew would be burned out later in their careers like Hewitt, Chang, (probably) Nadal. Seles was a teen at the time of the stabbing and in the middle of her domination (over Graf as well).



What bullcrap, Nadal still ran like a rabbit for years despite his condition. There isn't a single body in the entire universe that wouldn't take a toll from running left and right for 8 years, Seles was still a youngster and would probably continue her ownage for another few years if it wasn't for a freak who get jealous of another player beating the crap out of her countrywoman.

You obviously don't know much about Nadal and his woes. If it hadn't been for his foot-condition, he wouldn't need to wear those special shoes and wouldn't have knees as bad as he does now.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 01:57 PM
How the heck does it matter if it's "normal" or not? How does that change things?

Because it doesn't even have to do with tennis. That was absolutely nothing suggesting a Graf resurgence before Seles got stabbed. Once the incident happend Graf miraculously rediscovered some form. WHAT COINCIDENCE.

What if Seles just lost interest and retired the day before the incident happened,

She was stabbed on court, you know:)

would that change things? Why does it matter if it's a stabbing or an injury?

Because Seles could do nothing about it. It was a freak who stabbed her on court, she didn't stab herself FFS.

Nadal can play aggressively and win matches but he decides to grind them out instead. You see the difference? Btw even if Seles was a grinder (which HELL NO she wasn't) she was still barely 19 when she was forced out for 3 years.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 02:03 PM
You obviously don't know much about Nadal and his woes. If it hadn't been for his foot-condition, he wouldn't need to wear those special shoes and wouldn't have knees as bad as he does now.

If it was really bad, Nadal wouldn't last 2 seasons in a row, yet it's his 8th season in the top 2-4 (going into a 9th) and he's still here. Only the last couple of months he's been out but I still somewhat expect him to get back to the top.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 02:04 PM
If it was really bad, Nadal wouldn't last 2 seasons in a row, yet it's his 8th season in the top 2-4 (going into a 9th) and he's still here. Only the last couple of months he's been out but I still somewhat expect him to get back to the top.

That's a testament to the fighter he is. Not because he's a "faker" like the *******s like to believe.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 02:12 PM
Maybe Seles was dominating because Graf wasn't in the best of form? Did that occur to you? Nadal's foot condition has nothing to do with Tennis, either. You or I could have had it just as well. But it did and is affecting his career. But you're too much of a ******* and a hypocrite to acknowledge that Federer's career is (hypothetically) benefitting from it the same way that Graf's did from the Seles stabbing.

This lack of form lasted pretty long, I have to say:) Besides, Seles was winning left and right regardless of Graf's form, just look at the 1993 AO, there was absolutely nothing Graf could do to win that match. That's why there's an asterisk next to Graf's achievements.

I have no problems saying that Federer benefitted from Nadal's absence/lack of form in mid 2009 to mid 2010, it's true. Even if Federer was in such brilliant form that a healthy Nadal couldn't touch him, I'd still say that Federer benefitted big time, every top player would.


What if she was stabbed on court? Again, how is it different from her retiring from Tennis, say? Or having a serious case of knee-tendonitis which forced her to retire? How is it different that makes Graf's accomplishments questionable the way the stabbing apparently does? Answer this question, please? It's not like Graf stabbed her herself.

Because that's not what happened. You're making things up now. I've got a solid basis of my hypothesis, Seles was dominating tennis for 3 years, Graf couldn't win s**t, Seles gets stabbed, Graf wins 4 majors in a row. It doesn't take a mastermind to figure that Graf benefitted from the stabbing. You have a problem with admitting it, though. You German, btw? Cause I am, yet I don't have any problems admitting the truth.


Nadal could do nothing about his foot condition either. The problem with his knees is not necessarily because of his grinding. If you knew enough about Nadal, you'd know this.

He could do nothing about it? But you said just a moment ago that he used special shoes.

Like Nadal is any different than the grinders from previous generations, btw. Every single grinder that mattered in tennis had virtually no results in their late 20's, Chang, Hewitt, Borg, Wilander to name a few.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 02:16 PM
This lack of form lasted pretty long, I have to say:) Besides, Seles was winning left and right regardless of Graf's form, just look at the 1993 AO, there was absolutely nothing Graf could do to win that match. That's why there's an asterisk near Graf's achievements.

I have no problems saying that Federer benefitted from Nadal's absence/lack of form in mid 2009 to mid 2010, it's true. Even if Federer was in such brilliant form that a healthy Nadal couldn't touch him, I'd still say that Federer benefitted big time, every top player would.



Because that's not what happened. You're making things up now. I've got a solid basis of my hypothesis, Seles was dominating tennis for 3 years, Graf couldn't win s**t, Seles gets stabbed, Graf wins 4 majors in a row. It doesn't take a mastermind to figure that Graf benefitted from the stabbing. You have a problem with admitting it, though. You German, btw?



He could do nothing about it? But you said just a moment ago that he used special shoes.

Like Nadal is any different than the grinders from previous generations, btw. Every single grinder that mattered in tennis had virtually no results in their late 20's, Chang, Hewitt, Borg, Wilander to name a few.

Nadal was dominating Federer across all surfaces in 2008 and early 2009. Nadal goes out, Federer dominates the rest of 2009. So Federer's a phoney too, by your logic? And, just for the record, I'm Indian. It's funny you had to inquire about my nationality the minute you realized you were losing the argument :lol:

Nadal had to wear those shoes to be able to play Tennis. It was a necessary sacrifice. Again, you show how ignorant you are about Nadal's woes.

And what's wrong with grinding? He won the Career Grand Slam. Something very few have managed across 3 different surfaces.

dimeaxe
10-16-2012, 02:19 PM
How the heck does it matter if it's "normal" or not? How does that change things? What if Seles just lost interest and retired the day before the incident happened, would that change things? Why does it matter if it's a stabbing or an injury?

You must be some teeenage fan boy when you talk s!hit like this.I remember Monika's "incident" like it happened just yesterday, just totally different times back than, you cannot compare these things with Nadal injuries.

It's something that happened just once in tennis history.Yugoslavia was torn apart in war and Serbia was under embargo.But tennis officials did allow her to compete under yugoslav flag.

She was definite number one and I'm sure she would ended season with another three, or at least two slams.It happened just before RG.Graff did benefit from this big time.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 02:22 PM
You must be some teeenage fan boy when you talk s!hit like this.I remember Monika's "incident" like it happened just yesterday, just totally different times back than, you cannot compare these things with Nadal injuries.

It's something that happened just once in tennis history.Yugoslavia was torn apart in war and Serbia was under embargo.But tennis officials did allow her to compete under yugoslav flag.

She was definite number one and I'm sure she would ended season with another three, or at least two slams.It happened just before RG.Graff did benefit from this big time.

Were you born to a seer? Do you have 30 crystal balls?

Again, you people fail to elucidate how a stabbing is different from a career-ending injury in terms of sustenance in Tennis.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 02:24 PM
Nadal was dominating Federer across all surfaces in 2008 and early 2009. Nadal goes out, Federer dominates the rest of 2009. So Federer's a phoney too, by your logic?

I never called Graf a phoney. Not going deeper here as I explained this 10 times already, if you could read you wouldn't have to repeat yourself another 10 times.

And, just for the record, I'm Indian. It's funny you had to inquire about my nationality the minute you realized you were losing the argument :lol:

Cause it amuses me that a non-German would fight so hard to win this arguement. I might be a ******* but a rational one, once again I got no issues admitting that Federer benefitted from Nadal's lack of form, he did. Just like Nadal benefitted from the surface being slowed down or being 5 years younger than Nadal (which is huge in the ATP as men's primes are way shorter than the women's)


Nadal had to wear those shoes to be able to play Tennis. It was a necessary sacrifice. Again, you show how ignorant you are about Nadal's woes.

Do you have any proof that Nadal's condition causes severe injury? Or is this some data you got from Nadal's book?

And what's wrong with grinding? He won the Career Grand Slam. Something very few have managed across 3 different surfaces.

He's better than them, quite simply. But he's still a grinder, nevertheless.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 02:28 PM
Were you born to a seer? Do you have 30 crystal balls?

Again, you people fail to elucidate how a stabbing is different from a career-ending injury in terms of sustenance in Tennis.

No, you fail to notice the difference between a stabbing accident and one's injury. I'll try to put this relatively straighforward.

Stabbing = you have absolutely ZERO influence, there is nothing you can do to stop a freak from stabbing you in the back if he's off drugs

An injury = usually acquired after match play due to style of play

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 02:31 PM
No, you fail to notice the difference between a stabbing accident and one's injury. I'll try to put this relatively straighforward.

Stabbing = you have absolutely ZERO influence, there is nothing you can do to stop a freak from stabbing you in the back if he's off drugs

An injury = usually acquired after match play due to style of play

Try reading some about Nadal and come back. Right now I'm talking to a brick wall.

dimeaxe
10-16-2012, 02:33 PM
Were you born to a seer? Do you have 30 crystal balls?

Again, you people fail to elucidate how a stabbing is different from a career-ending injury in terms of sustenance in Tennis.


I can see now, thank God you never lived these times.I would repeat once again, she was first male/female player who was literally attacked on a tennis court.

This is something that has haunted her until she retired from tennis.It's completely different from psychological point of view.

I just saw that you're Indian, I mean there's a lot smart people there...you should have a better perception of things.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 02:34 PM
It amuses you that not every poster has a personal agenda and can argue for what they truly believe?

Can you prove Seles actually won those Slams she did and it wasn't all fixed? No. Similarly, I don't have "proof" either. I'm just presuming it's the truth as I see no reason to believe he's lying.

I'm wondering, why does it bother you so much to acknowledge that Graf benefitted from her greatest rival's absence? I'm not saying that Seles would've won the next 20 majors but since there's absolutely nothing suggesting a Seles meltdown, it gives us a reason for discussion. And that's the whole point. Nobody will take away those majors from Graf just like no-one will add some to Seles' resume. But doubts will NEVER be erased.

What's wrong with being a grinder? Murray's called a "pusher" but he doesn't have any career-threatening injuries, does he? Nor does Djokovic.

No of matches (mileage). Nuff said. He still gets injured from time to time, though. I'm actually quite surprised that Djokovic doesn't get injured more often than he actually does.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 02:38 PM
I can see now, thank God you never lived these times.I would repeat once again, she was first male/female player who was literally attacked on a tennis court.

This is something that has haunted her until she retired from tennis.It's completely different from psychological point of view.

I just saw that you an Indian, I mean there's a lot smart people there...you should have a better perception of things.

I'm talking Tennis sustenance, not personal demons. As a human, I'd rather have a career-threatening knee-injury than be stabbed in my office. But, in terms of a Tennis career, rather have an injury, like a stabbing, that one could possibly come back from (however difficult that might be) than to be pushed out by a career-ending injury where you have no choice in the matter and have no hope of a comeback.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 02:39 PM
Try reading some about Nadal and come back. Right now I'm talking to a brick wall.

And you just take it as certainty what he writes in his book. Well, it can't affect him THAT much if he can still compete at this level, I mean damn he's won at least 1 major in the last 8 seasons, come on what are we talking about here?

You know what a serious injury is? One that virtually ends your career. Safin in 2005. Kuerten in 2002. Hewitt in 2006. I don't recall Nadal considering retirement yet so this arguement is void.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 02:41 PM
I'm wondering, why does it bother you so much to acknowledge that Graf benefitted from her greatest rival's absence? I'm not saying that Seles would've won the next 20 majors but since there's absolutely nothing suggesting a Seles meltdown, it gives us a reason for discussion. And that's the whole point. Nobody will take away those majors from Graf just like no-one will add some to Seles' resume. But doubts will NEVER be erased.



No of matches (mileage). Nuff said. He still gets injured from time to time, though. I'm actually quite surprised that Djokovic doesn't get injured more often than he actually does.

I've already admitted that Graf's career probably did benefit from the stabbing. But why can't a career not benefit from a freak-incidence (Seles's stabbing) and still be the greatest career of all time? Just like a career can benefit from the regretful injuries of another player (Nadal) and still be the greatest of all time?

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 02:41 PM
I'm talking Tennis sustenance, not personal demons. As a human, I'd rather have a career-threatening knee-injury than be stabbed in my office. But, in terms of a Tennis career, rather have an injury, like a stabbing, that one could possibly come back from (however difficult that might be) than to be pushed out by a career-ending injury where you have no choice in the matter and have no hope of a comeback.

Once again, how can you compare Seles to Nadal?

We talk so much about Nadal being "injured" in 2009 (his level of play decreased fo so) but the guy still reached the US open semis, failed to lose before the semis of the last 3 Masters of the year (something he's never done before) and never dropped out of the top 3. You're comparing these stats to Seles who DIDN'T PLAY A SINGLE TOUR MATCH. For 3 years.

I mean seriously...

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 02:42 PM
And you just take it as certainty what he writes in his book. Well, it can't affect him THAT much if he can still compete at this level, I mean damn he's won at least 1 major in the last 8 seasons, come on what are we talking about here?

You know what a serious injury is? One that virtually ends your career. Safin in 2005. Kuerten in 2002. Hewitt in 2006. I don't recall Nadal considering retirement yet so this arguement is void.

Only a ******* can insist on giving Nadal ZERO credit and presume everything Nadal says is a lie. Only a *******.

dimeaxe
10-16-2012, 02:42 PM
I'm wondering, why does it bother you so much to acknowledge that Graf benefitted from her greatest rival's absence? I'm not saying that Seles would've won the next 20 majors but since there's absolutely nothing suggesting a Seles meltdown, it gives us a reason for discussion. And that's the whole point. Nobody will take away those majors from Graf just like no-one will add some to Seles' resume. But doubts will NEVER be erased.



No of matches (mileage). Nuff said. He still gets injured from time to time, though. I'm actually quite surprised that Djokovic doesn't get injured more often than he actually does.

Don't be surprised.He does stretching before tournaments and matches, I remember once a journalist asked him something about his elasticity and etc. after he mentioned that he played exhibition match with Agassi in '06, just before Wimby, and Andre told him that he never did that in his career:)

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 02:45 PM
Once again, how can you compare Seles to Nadal?

We talk so much about Nadal being "injured" in 2009 (his level of play decreased fo so) but the guy still reached the US open semis, failed to lose before the semis of the last 3 Masters of the year (something he's never done before) and never dropped out of the top 3. You're comparing these stats to Seles who DIDN'T PLAY A SINGLE TOUR MATCH. For 3 years.

I mean seriously...

Seles's injury took weeks to heal. Nadal's is likely permanent. The reason Seles didn't come back is purely psychological. She wasn't forced out of Tennis the way Nadal almost has been on several occasions now. I give Seles tons of credit for coming back, even if it was 3 years later. I find it pathetic that people like you can't give Nadal even half that credit for showing more heart than Seles ever did.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 02:45 PM
I've already admitted that Graf's career probably did benefit from the stabbing. But why can't a career not benefit from a freak-incidence (Seles's stabbing) and still be the greatest career of all time? Just like a career can benefit from the regretful injuries of another player (Nadal) and still be the greatest of all time?

It's all a matter of opinion in the end. Would you call Serena the GOAT even though she's way behind in numbers?

Glad we agree on something at least, though, as it's getting late here, gotta say never thought I'd have such a long arguement with a fellow *******.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 02:47 PM
It's all a matter of opinion in the end. Would you call Serena the GOAT even though she's way behind in numbers?

Glad we agree on something at least, though, as it's getting late here, gotta say never thought I'd have such a long arguement with a fellow *******.

I'm not a *******. Whatever you like to believe.

Serena, right now, is far from being the GOAT, IMO. Falls short on atleast 3 of my GOAT criteria.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 02:49 PM
Only a ******* can insist on giving Nadal ZERO credit and presume everything Nadal says is a lie. Only a *******.

I'm only starting to believe him now when I don't see him in action. Everything else is just pure bull**t. You're SEVERELY injured = you're out of the game. And one more time take a look at Hewitt in 2006, Kuerten in 2002, Safin in 2005, Ancic a couple of times. I don't need to read well documented doctor's scripts to believe that they're actually injured cause I see it with my naked eye. Nadal has been a whiner ever since I remember. But again, I'm starting to believe him now when he's out of the game.

tennis_pro
10-16-2012, 02:50 PM
I'm not a *******. Whatever you like to believe.

Serena, right now, is far from being the GOAT, IMO. Falls short on atleast 3 of my GOAT criteria.

A matter of opinion. I don't have my WTA GOAT but here's hoping Serena wins another 5-7 majors so she can end the discussion once and for all.

BauerAlmeida
10-16-2012, 02:51 PM
Oh, so if Seles had bullfighting as one of her pastimes (which would make a stab by a bull more predictable) and was stabbed, that would somehow detract from Seles's greatness as a Tennis player? Just because one could have predicted she would be stabbed? You're getting ridiculous. Nadal had to put extra pressure on his knees because of the condition with his foot, not because he enjoyed mutilating his legs.

This. What happened with Seles is terrible, but it happened. You can't deny Graff's greatness because of it.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 02:54 PM
A matter of opinion. I don't have my WTA GOAT but here's hoping Serena wins another 5-7 majors so she can end the discussion once and for all.

Even if Serena won 7 more Slams, or 10 for that matter, I'd put Graf over her. Serena has not shown the necessary versatility, consistency, sustenance, peak-level-of-play, or brilliance that Graf has. I think only Navratilova compares and competes.

Steve0904
10-16-2012, 03:19 PM
I'm inclined to agree with tennispro here simply because a stabbing, and bad knees from a grinding style of tennis are in fact totally different. Nadal has to play this way because if he doesn't he won't be half as successful, and I doubt he could totally reinvent himself now even if he wanted to anyway. I guess at the end of the day you have to be good enough to take advantage of these types of situations, so fair play to Graf and Federer for that.

For example there's not really a law that says Federer had to win Wimbledon in 2009 just because Nadal didn't play. He could've, should've lost to Roddick, but he never. He won it because he was good enough to win it.

Same deal with the French. Do I think Federer could've beaten Nadal at the French in 2009? Absolutely not, but it doesn't mean an asterix should be put by his win there. He proved his greatness and consistency with that win more than any other. If we look back at the alternative, and the matches he "should've" lost, he might not be arguably the "GOAT" today. In fact, he'd be labelled as a choker if he lost any of his matches after Nadal had lost, and very few people, if any, would debate that. I'll take a FO win with an imaginary asterix by it anyday.

If we want to get into the asterix debate, I could just as easily say Nadal should have an asterix by his 2011 French Open win, but really he won it fair and square, just as Federer did.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 03:22 PM
I'm inclined to agree with tennispro here simply because a stabbing, and bad knees from a grinding style of tennis are in fact totally different. Nadal has to play this way because if he doesn't he won't be half as successful, and I doubt he could totally reinvent himself now even if he wanted to anyway. I guess at the end of the day you have to be good enough to take advantage of these types of situations, so fair play to Graf and Federer for that.

For example there's not really a law that says Federer had to win Wimbledon in 2009 just because Nadal didn't play. He could've, should've lost to Roddick, but he never. He won it because he was good enough to win it.

Same deal with the French. Do I think Federer could've beaten Nadal at the French in 2009? Absolutely not, but it doesn't mean an asterix should be put by his win there. He proved his greatness and consistency with that win more than any other. If we look back at the alternative, and the matches he "should've" lost, he might not be arguably the "GOAT" today. In fact, he'd be labelled as a choker if he lost any of his matches after Nadal had lost, and very few people, if any, would debate that. I'll take a FO win with an imaginary asterix by it anyday.

If we want to get into the asterix debate, I could just as easily say Nadal should have an asterix by his 2011 French Open win, but really he won it fair and square, just as Federer did.

While you said you were inclined to agree with tennis_pro, your post sounds like the person you agree most with is me :)

Steve0904
10-16-2012, 03:23 PM
I guess in a sense I just kind of agreed with both of you.

Steve0904
10-16-2012, 03:24 PM
Yes I just realized that now. Caught up in typing I guess.

Steve0904
10-16-2012, 03:36 PM
I still get where tennispro is coming from though. With Nadal, you could tell he would have injury problems, thus that is not Federer's problem when he wins a major where Nadal is injured or doesn't play. With Seles, she was dominating, (3 slams two years in a row are Federer-like numbers regardless of the 1 slam years sandwiched in between them) and nobody could've predicted what would happen to her, regardless of whether or not she retired before she got stabbed, or she had bullfighting as one of her hobbies. Federer gets more credit because it is Nadal's fault he's injured whereas it is not Seles's fault she got stabbed. Seles getting stabbed was not Graf's problem either, but they are different cases. Also worth pointing out that Nadal had more problems than Federer on HC's.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 03:45 PM
I still get where tennispro is coming from though. With Nadal, you could tell he would have injury problems, thus that is not Federer's problem when he wins a major where Nadal is injured or doesn't play. With Seles, she was dominating, (3 slams two years in a row are Federer-like numbers regardless of the 1 slam years sandwiched in between them) and nobody could've predicted what would happen to her, regardless of whether or not she retired before she got stabbed, or she had bullfighting as one of her hobbies. Federer gets more credit because it is Nadal's fault he's injured whereas it is not Seles's fault she got stabbed. Seles getting stabbed was not Graf's problem either, but they are different cases. Also worth pointing out that Nadal had more problems than Federer on HC's.

Except that it's really not Nadal's fault he gets injured. His foot condition forced him to either wear those special shoes (which put extra pressure on the knees) or quit Tennis. He had already developed his playing style then so it wasn't realistic to reinvent himself. The rest is history.

kishnabe
10-16-2012, 03:49 PM
38 more weeks....possible.
78.....unlikely.

smoledman
10-16-2012, 04:22 PM
The stabbing is undoubtedly the worst thing to ever take place on a Tennis court. And sure, Graf's career probably did benefit from it. But you can't say for sure. Just because Seles rules for 1 or 2 years doesn't mean she would have or could have sustained it. Again, she very well could have. But we're talking "what if"s here. It didn't work out that way, through no fault of Seles's. I could just as easily say I would've won 30 Grand Slams if I hadn't broken my leg in 10th grade or something. Look at Hingis. She was touted to be the next big thing in 1997 and look at her career after that. It's like they say, "if your aunt had bollocks, she'd be your uncle." But you don't call your aunt "aunt-who-could've-been-my-uncle" with an asterix next to your uncle now, do you? If you do, no argument, you win. If not, acknowledge that Graf achieved more in Tennis than any woman in history and also displayed a level of play that is pretty much unmatched. And move on.

Seles' stabbing was a minor physical injury, but a deep psychological wound. If Seles was made of sterner psychological stuff, she would have been back by the 1993 US Open and kicking ***.

Prisoner of Birth
10-16-2012, 04:25 PM
Seles' stabbing was a minor physical injury, but a deep psychological wound. If Seles was made of sterner psychological stuff, she would have been back by the 1993 US Open and kicking ***.

Yeah, that's what I mean. She could've still been a challenge to Graf, however tough that might have been.

Alchemy-Z
10-17-2012, 10:51 AM
something I made goofing off today

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1/TB240Z/300.jpg

Sabratha
10-17-2012, 10:59 AM
Federer won't accomplish this.