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View Full Version : Doping in Tennis in Everywhere - Noah


TheCanadian
10-15-2012, 11:37 AM
ALMOST a year after earning the wrath of Rafael Nadal for controversial comments about doping in Spain, former French Open champion Yannick Noah now claims the problem is more widespread than he initially feared.

http://tpatennis.net/yannick-noah-speaks-out-again-about-doping-in-tennis/

Mustard
10-15-2012, 11:43 AM
Any proof of these accusations, Monsieur Noah?

Clarky21
10-15-2012, 11:50 AM
Well,duh. The testing in tennis is a joke so there is going to be widespread doping because the players know they can get away with it.

CMM
10-15-2012, 11:59 AM
Any proof of these accusations, Monsieur Noah?

He didn't accuse anyone.

BigServer1
10-15-2012, 12:01 PM
Well,duh. The testing in tennis is a joke so there is going to be widespread doping because the players know they can get away with it.

It's not just tennis. The testing everywhere (except for the Olympics) is a joke. Top PED guys say that they're always at least 2-3 years ahead of testing procedures.

Nothing will change unless all sports start requiring blood tests, which likely won't happen for a variety of reasons.

sureshs
10-15-2012, 12:03 PM
Do I have to read the article or can I conclude that this is one more opinionated guy without any proof?

cluckcluck
10-15-2012, 12:08 PM
I've talked to a former top 10 ATP pro about it and he has told me that it's all over the tour.

The Bawss
10-15-2012, 12:12 PM
Any proof of these accusations, Monsieur Noah?

Yeah Slam champion Noah with multiple connections doesn't have a clue, unlike you. Please give evidence of how the players are clean? In sports these days it's guilty until proven innocent.

rainingaces
10-15-2012, 12:14 PM
So are we suppost to think noah was clean just because he points the finger of blame without proof? If anyone was doping it was him.

BrooklynNY
10-15-2012, 12:17 PM
Maybe he did dope. Maybe It takes one to know one.


Maybe he knows one or two...


As we know with Marion Jones and Lance Armstrong "Strict Testing" and "Never failing a test" mean absolutely nothing.

dudeski
10-15-2012, 01:18 PM
It's not just tennis. The testing everywhere (except for the Olympics) is a joke. Top PED guys say that they're always at least 2-3 years ahead of testing procedures.

Nothing will change unless all sports start requiring blood tests, which likely won't happen for a variety of reasons.

Makes sense why certain someone didn't bother defending the title.

gsharma
10-15-2012, 01:39 PM
It's not just tennis. The testing everywhere (except for the Olympics) is a joke. Top PED guys say that they're always at least 2-3 years ahead of testing procedures.

Nothing will change unless all sports start requiring blood tests, which likely won't happen for a variety of reasons.

WADA is now suggesting that statue of limitations should increase and that they be allowed to keep samples for longer so that when the testing catches up with the older PED technology, the older samples can get tested.

Mustard
10-15-2012, 01:39 PM
Yeah Slam champion Noah with multiple connections doesn't have a clue, unlike you. Please give evidence of how the players are clean? In sports these days it's guilty until proven innocent.

It should always be innocent until proven guilty. We are not on the planet Marinus, you know.

Mustard
10-15-2012, 02:03 PM
As we know with Marion Jones and Lance Armstrong "Strict Testing" and "Never failing a test" mean absolutely nothing.

Marion Jones admitted that she had taken drugs and committed perjury. I've already discussed the Lance Armstrong case at length in the Odds and Ends section, and all the evidence against Armstrong is circumstantial and based on the testimonies of plea bargained cyclists and people with axes to grind. There's a reason as to why this case was thrown out of court after the federal investigation.

norcal
10-15-2012, 02:20 PM
My favorite story was Agassi skipping out on a test saying he got a call that his kid was kidnapped and he had to leave. lol

Any sport with big money on the line will have doping. It's called human nature. Barry Bonds never failed a test as head grew twice in size, lol.

Mainad
10-15-2012, 02:38 PM
Marion Jones admitted that she had taken drugs and committed perjury. I've already discussed the Lance Armstrong case at length in the Odds and Ends section, and all the evidence against Armstrong is circumstantial and based on the testimonies of plea bargained cyclists and people with axes to grind. There's a reason as to why this case was thrown out of court after the federal investigation.

I dunno. There's so much smoke around Armstrong now that you can't help but feel there's probably a fire somewhere!

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/12/us/armstrong-doping-masseuse/index.html

ruerooo
10-15-2012, 02:42 PM
I dunno. There's so much smoke around Armstrong now that you can't help but feel there's probably a fire somewhere!

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/12/us/armstrong-doping-masseuse/index.html

Armstrong admitted it. It was in the news, I guess, a couple of weeks ago (before the Shanghai tournament started).

Mainad
10-15-2012, 02:48 PM
Armstrong admitted it. It was in the news, I guess, a couple of weeks ago (before the Shanghai tournament started).

Did he? In that case, I don't see what is there left to argue! :cool:

sunof tennis
10-15-2012, 02:48 PM
It should always be innocent until proven guilty. We are not on the planet Marinus, you know.

Agreed. We are not in **** Germany or Stalinist Soviet Union

MurrayMyInspiration
10-15-2012, 02:51 PM
If Lance Armstrong can pass a drugs test simply by drinking a litre of saline water to mask the drugs then it has to be more widespread than we think!!

rufus_smith
10-15-2012, 03:19 PM
For a while I didn't think that ATP players doped because I didn't think EPO would help tennis players much. But after reading more about how EPO can greatly help keep a runner or biker's stamina up at a high level over a two week event and seeing players nowadays play strenuous 4-5 hr matches without much fall off, it wouldn't surprise me to find that many of the top players use EPO. It is easy to administer and to easy to hide. There is so much money at the top of the sport and players only have a short span of years to be at the top. It would be a great temptation. With the slow down of the courts and better equipment, ATP tennis has become an endurance sport more like biking. Djoker rapid improvement by going on a "gluten-free" diet is a little ridiculous in my opinion. EPO use could be quite prevalent nowadays.

tennisfan2010
10-15-2012, 03:26 PM
I think many players use PED or recreational drugs but it is covered up to protect the sport.

LeeD
10-15-2012, 03:31 PM
Do any of you guys even bother to PLAY tennis?
It's tiring, you need to recover quickly, and you're constantly getting nagging injuries. If it helps your actual performance, all the better. But recovery is the first and most important reason.
Just like any competitive sport. At least since 1962, when I played basketball for junior high.

Wuppy
10-15-2012, 04:42 PM
There's rampant doping in ALL professional sports. Always has been, always will be. When there's that much money and fame on the line, you betcha there will be.

There are only those who get caught and those who don't.

Mustard
10-15-2012, 05:25 PM
Did he? In that case, I don't see what is there left to argue! :cool:

Armstrong said he never gained an unfair advantage. For some people, rather than this being Armstrong saying he's innocent, it's instead Armstrong saying that he took PEDs, but so was everyone else and therefore didn't think he had done anything wrong.

This is NOT proof of any guilt.

oy vey
10-15-2012, 06:21 PM
I think many players use PED or recreational drugs but it is covered up to protect the sport.

I also believe most are using and the ATP will protect them.

ClairHarmony
10-15-2012, 06:24 PM
Marion Jones admitted that she had taken drugs and committed perjury. I've already discussed the Lance Armstrong case at length in the Odds and Ends section, and all the evidence against Armstrong is circumstantial and based on the testimonies of plea bargained cyclists and people with axes to grind. There's a reason as to why this case was thrown out of court after the federal investigation.

It's redundant, but knowing Armstrong's type, ENTP; for what it's worth, this is just what it is as far as I "know." This is their tell-tale pattern, of how an uncurbed ENTP, the path they go down...I too have written about it at length in a bball board. I've seen this pattern play out on a smaller scale, what feels like a thousand times over, on a daily basis, I've seen it everywhere for like a decade. It just is what it is.

There's a "signature," if you will, to how certain types go off. And there's a reason why juries should be selected with a balanced eye toward type. It may be in general, but the pattern almost certainly still remains. Certain branches of types, simply tend to hold/require different standards of "proof." Again, it just is what it is.

My best friend was an ENTP, many friends ENTP's, nothing against ENTP's, when many other friends of other types have...but a *very* common trait amongst ENTP's who haven't been "curbed." I'm just saying, I've seen it first hand, you have to start young with them, you have to hold their innate "itch" if you will to logically and systematically manipluate the "rules of the game" if you will, accountable, you have to keep that leash on them when young, can't let them get away with, have to teach them, *need to let them know,* that's the bottom-line...otherwise, as adults. Parents who understand this, can make a world of difference in how their kids turn out. After all, to make it into a picture in Time magazine holding a beak ain't so bad right? Right, but behind closed doors...logically and systematically working the arbitrary "rules," whatever they maybe, to their end, the tendency it's still there. It's always going to be there, underneath that surface. It just is what it is, but that darn guy learned to *keep it in check,* not just knows right from wrong, but holds to it most of the time, won't allow himself to veer to far-off the deep end.

I've seen "Armstrong" types over and over, and over again. The chain reaction of those affected, and how they get there. He may not see it as wrong, but he's *most certainly aware.* It is what it is. ENTP's I'm telling you, they are more or less the most "talented" when it comes to being able to pull off a lie without a hitch. It just is what it is. They are the most capable in this way, innately. The best at, the best max potential. I'm saying this as objectively as can be, meaning w/out attention to whether or not that trait is viewed in a negative light. It's just a trait, like any other trait, it is what it is. Heck, sometimes you need to lie...but this *isn't* one of them.

ENTP's are the master of one-upmanship. Again, it is what it is. Does anything in Armstrong's past, all of it points to one, who when having the upper hand financially will do whatever he can to logically and systematically bury you, to discredit you as merely bitter this that, ax to grind, blah, blah, blah...blah, thousands upon thousands then, with axes to grind, I've seen. And yet the fact is, the many ants and wills that I've seen squashed by this kind of behavior through the years. Again, it just is what it is.

It'd take an uncurbed ENTP verring off the deep end, to not want to allow Greg Lamond any of that sun. A "healthy" in the soul ENTP don't need to do that. Fed and Sampras don't need to do that, know what I mean? There's just no need to, *if* you're a reasonably good person.

I've seen Armstrong's type so vividly in my mind, can you not see patterns play out familiarly between someone like say Evan Tanner and me, Penn and Agassi, what have you? They're there. It is what it is. The more in tune you are with these behavior patterns, the ideosyncrasies, the finesse in it all, the better your chances of intercepting, preventing. To me, the BEST thing you can do, is not wish anyone else to hell. They *need* to know. It is what it is. To care about Lance Armstrong, is to not let him just get away with it anymore. Ax to grind, perhaps, but he's had no problems grinding that ax extra sharp himself through the years. I've seen it, in the eyes, no problem going after....

It may just be circumstantial to you, but how much circumstantial do you need to see that Muster's a worthier hound dog to defend to the death than he. If you can't detect the same patterns of play at a play, from a type stand point, in what I wrote on Lakersground, I don't know what to say. There are many types of "facts" in life, many types among us, some more sensitive than others, others more "factual." The more balanced you get in type, the easier it is to see the value in *all* types and traits, to not be missled, to make that picture clear. It takes more than one type of "scan" line to present a clearer picture...again, it just is what it is. It's not an ax to grind so much as, people just need to know. I've seen far too many ENTP's who've not been curbed, let not ants stand in their way...to get where they want. I firmly believe you can only be judged according to scale, an INFJ's type tendencies when veering off that scale, however, it just is what it is. An ENTP's on average gonna do more damage, on a larger scale, when "off." When allowing themselves too. It just is what it is.

You see that some so and so org has a lust for witch hunting Armstrong? Yeah, sure, I have *no problem* buying that. I believe it whole-heartedly, *to a degree.* It goes both ways. It just is what it is. To get in that position, to do that, I just think it's far more likely the way society is structured today; for an ENTP to be able to "maneuver" themselves if you will, into that position. Again, it just is what it is, when you try to look at it objectively, with respect to all types. That's just how the dice is going to end up rolling more often than not. Which is again, why I think all the lovely-la-di-da of traditional "typing," is only just so useful. When thing is going great in our lives, everyone's great for the most part. You need to know the *worst-case scenariors* for our types, you *need* to know how we go off when "wrong," and the damage that can cause, *and* then decide whether you're ok with that. It's up to you. People is always going to end up getting hurt in life. Ain't no politician can speak for us all, they almost always gonna seem to come up short in the end, no matter what they "promise..." why? Because, it's not just not easy, it's downright *impossible.* You can't please them all, all you can do is learn to respect...or *lose respect,* for someone's true motives.

It's A LOT easier to try and "correct" and "reach" someone like you, when there's obviously much of a soul still at play; than, it is Armstrong, who I have a line for that, but whatever, is just is what it is, in my opinion. He don't really, necessarily want to be reached just yet. It is what it is.

On a far "worser" scale, but I saw the one about the chemist or whatever, who "buried" her former husband "alive" in a vat of hydrochloric acid, a barrel, and stowed him away in public storage. On trial, one juror gives her the "thumbs up," as if to say, she said, "You did a good job..." ouch, and that's what I mean. That's the problem, of not being aware of types. It may be just circumstantial to you, but at some point, you have to just ask yourself the odds...realistically evaluate, *what are the odds.* I would bet almost certainly, that this lady was an ENTP...best, most capable, liars around when called upon to do so, they have that kind of "potential." But to me, this time, not in a good way, obviously. It just is what it is, bcs. that smokescreen she was so ridicuosly affluent at putting on for the jurors...beyond that, what was there? I mean, come on, think logically, emotionally, spiritually, whatever you want to call it...*why stow your former dud in a barrel of hcl, and close that tub, rub a dub, dub, knock-knock, you-hoo, remember me, um, know what I mean? I mean, yeah, come on, why...why have an employee rent the Uhaul, I mean, yeah, come on, hello, know what I mean, knock-knock, pinging you from the inside, but no body's listening no more...it just is what it is. Some people just ain't worth bother defending. Yeah, there's always that remote possibility...but even so, Armstrong's still not *that* worthy of to me. I don't think, he'd care that much about you, if he had that chance, and you got in his way, knowing what I've seen and experienced...it wouldn't be that much, for him to, ta-tah, flick, out of my way, flea...by the breezeway. Again, it just is what it is. That's in the wrong-way ENTP, who don't want to be corrected, and when every single fact rings true, can't acknowledge and simply "ignores" when able to...again, it just is what it is. Some the vilest, most meanest, "ugly" on the outside men I've met, are still able to acknowledge, there is that residual...that pinging awareness, deep down...it ain't that, way with Armstrong, just my opinion. Can't reach 'em all, some don't want to know, or know, but don't really care. Can't be bothered to.

ClairHarmony
10-15-2012, 06:24 PM
Was Canseco (ESTP for what it's worth, not that it should matter when it comes to these kinds of things, ultimately)...was he full of crip too? You think it's soo easy to have an ax to grind? Well, it's not. It *kills you.* And that's the bottom-line. It's *NOT* worth it, to the VAST majority of us. If you're gonna go through with that, you better feel it *deep down* inside like you need to, or you're not going to.... It's not that simple. It's a saga, and one Armstrong brought on just as much as himself. Not saying, whatever orgie out to get him ain't all that a pocketful of chips too...but two wrongs never made no ah right, ooh ah, just a little bit...fun times, fun times, soooooo long ago...but fun times, nonetheless. Were I to die tomorrow though? Yeah, I think I couldl ive with it. Don't have much else going for me though.

In regards to Virignia Tech, look up JoeNewburry or something or other, I believe was his name. One of the ladies behind, she wouldn't even recognize me, but looking back I realized, Crazy, Crazy, all night long, one song, Crazzy, crazzzy...uggh, I don't really consider her a hero per say, not a bad person, but also definitely not a hero. It is what it is. That's how administrators can do, that's just how it goes, yo...it's not like I don't know how it feels, how Armstrong might feel, bcs. I do...but I'd rather sympathize with the truth, not clingings of clingings to a rule, here and there, when it suits. When it comes to making anchors out of loopholes, a bad way ENTP is most prone to, when ignoring humanity in favor of the rules...they *can* be prone to, IF you let them. That's why you have to as a parent STOP them, when you still can, when them brain's is still molding, forming, it just is what it is. It WORKS, I've seen it...and yeah, sometimes it doesn't always work, but oh well, hey, that's life, what can you, but still don't change the "fact" that you should probably begin to see these things, grasp these things, catch these partterns of play before it's too late. It just is what it is. Yoiu would maybe never know I'm an INFP because I'm no longer just naive, la-di-da, take one, just for the heck of it...that's just stupid. You've gotta be smarter than that, "overcome" your type, not only so it doesn't happen to you, but others too. Becs. that Joe dud, ain't me...ain't my "type" at all, but I can just tell...his "spirit" be utterly decimated and squahsed by "this" too...but again, ain't no medals for that. Can you believe that? I actually thought they was contacting me to give me a medal, for being *right.* Not pretty, but for sure I was *right* and for sure with all the best, right intentions, I thought I'd "earned" that, to be "right" on such a thing, but oh well...they'd rather pretend that I'm just dumb, play dumb, and play with the rules, the system, and a grade, then ignore, let happen, and it is what it is. Another "valuable" life lost, oh well. Who had more, who had nothing virtually, and lost everything. Thank you very much.

Ax to grind? It don't have to be perceived that way. If ever, regardless of type, faced with/feeling the same...well, there you go, there it is, just enough free, always unedited (except to "dumb down" occasionally, when necessary, when could say with a needle, should I choose to, people sometimes need that needle, don't let the random rambling fool u), fly of the pants, unscripted, there it is, "real" as can be. Wala, lada....

DeShaun
10-15-2012, 07:07 PM
So are we suppost to think noah was clean just because he points the finger of blame without proof? If anyone was doping it was him.
Lendl certainly thought so.

NLBwell
10-15-2012, 09:15 PM
The earliest public rumors of PEDs I can remember were about Leconte when he got to the French Open final.

TennisLovaLova
10-16-2012, 12:43 AM
Armstrong said he never gained an unfair advantage. For some people, rather than this being Armstrong saying he's innocent, it's instead Armstrong saying that he took PEDs, but so was everyone else and therefore didn't think he had done anything wrong.

This is NOT proof of any guilt.

Sorry Mustard, but what kind of logic is this?
You're cutting a hair in four really...

nereis
10-16-2012, 04:20 AM
Sorry Mustard, but what kind of logic is this?
You're cutting a hair in four really...

'Unfair advantage' can be read many ways, and it is inappropriate to conclude admission of guilt on one of the readings.

TennisLovaLova
10-16-2012, 04:25 AM
well, we live in an era where everyone likes to twist words
politicians, economists, lawyers, and even sport figures...
People are not stupid and proof or not, we all know what Armstrong did and what's happening on the atp tour
Pro Sport --> Huge financial interests (sponsors, bets,mafia) --> doping

ivan_the_terrible
10-16-2012, 07:25 AM
Judging by the pitiful attempts at defending Lance here, I can safely say that OJ didn't do it either!

gsharma
10-16-2012, 07:43 AM
It's redundant, but knowing Armstrong's type, ENTP; for what it's worth, this is just what it is as far as I "know." This is their tell-tale pattern, of how an uncurbed ENTP, the path they go down...I too have written about it at length in a bball board. I've seen this pattern play out on a smaller scale, what feels like a thousand times over, on a daily basis, I've seen it everywhere for like a decade. It just is what it is.

There's a "signature," if you will, to how certain types go off. And there's a reason why juries should be selected with a balanced eye toward type. It may be in general, but the pattern almost certainly still remains. Certain branches of types, simply tend to hold/require different standards of "proof." Again, it just is what it is.

My best friend was an ENTP, many friends ENTP's, nothing against ENTP's, when many other friends of other types have...but a *very* common trait amongst ENTP's who haven't been "curbed." I'm just saying, I've seen it first hand, you have to start young with them, you have to hold their innate "itch" if you will to logically and systematically manipluate the "rules of the game" if you will, accountable, you have to keep that leash on them when young, can't let them get away with, have to teach them, *need to let them know,* that's the bottom-line...otherwise, as adults. Parents who understand this, can make a world of difference in how their kids turn out. After all, to make it into a picture in Time magazine holding a beak ain't so bad right? Right, but behind closed doors...logically and systematically working the arbitrary "rules," whatever they maybe, to their end, the tendency it's still there. It's always going to be there, underneath that surface. It just is what it is, but that darn guy learned to *keep it in check,* not just knows right from wrong, but holds to it most of the time, won't allow himself to veer to far-off the deep end.

I've seen "Armstrong" types over and over, and over again. The chain reaction of those affected, and how they get there. He may not see it as wrong, but he's *most certainly aware.* It is what it is. ENTP's I'm telling you, they are more or less the most "talented" when it comes to being able to pull off a lie without a hitch. It just is what it is. They are the most capable in this way, innately. The best at, the best max potential. I'm saying this as objectively as can be, meaning w/out attention to whether or not that trait is viewed in a negative light. It's just a trait, like any other trait, it is what it is. Heck, sometimes you need to lie...but this *isn't* one of them.

ENTP's are the master of one-upmanship. Again, it is what it is. Does anything in Armstrong's past, all of it points to one, who when having the upper hand financially will do whatever he can to logically and systematically bury you, to discredit you as merely bitter this that, ax to grind, blah, blah, blah...blah, thousands upon thousands then, with axes to grind, I've seen. And yet the fact is, the many ants and wills that I've seen squashed by this kind of behavior through the years. Again, it just is what it is.

It'd take an uncurbed ENTP verring off the deep end, to not want to allow Greg Lamond any of that sun. A "healthy" in the soul ENTP don't need to do that. Fed and Sampras don't need to do that, know what I mean? There's just no need to, *if* you're a reasonably good person.

I've seen Armstrong's type so vividly in my mind, can you not see patterns play out familiarly between someone like say Evan Tanner and me, Penn and Agassi, what have you? They're there. It is what it is. The more in tune you are with these behavior patterns, the ideosyncrasies, the finesse in it all, the better your chances of intercepting, preventing. To me, the BEST thing you can do, is not wish anyone else to hell. They *need* to know. It is what it is. To care about Lance Armstrong, is to not let him just get away with it anymore. Ax to grind, perhaps, but he's had no problems grinding that ax extra sharp himself through the years. I've seen it, in the eyes, no problem going after....

It may just be circumstantial to you, but how much circumstantial do you need to see that Muster's a worthier hound dog to defend to the death than he. If you can't detect the same patterns of play at a play, from a type stand point, in what I wrote on Lakersground, I don't know what to say. There are many types of "facts" in life, many types among us, some more sensitive than others, others more "factual." The more balanced you get in type, the easier it is to see the value in *all* types and traits, to not be missled, to make that picture clear. It takes more than one type of "scan" line to present a clearer picture...again, it just is what it is. It's not an ax to grind so much as, people just need to know. I've seen far too many ENTP's who've not been curbed, let not ants stand in their way...to get where they want. I firmly believe you can only be judged according to scale, an INFJ's type tendencies when veering off that scale, however, it just is what it is. An ENTP's on average gonna do more damage, on a larger scale, when "off." When allowing themselves too. It just is what it is.

You see that some so and so org has a lust for witch hunting Armstrong? Yeah, sure, I have *no problem* buying that. I believe it whole-heartedly, *to a degree.* It goes both ways. It just is what it is. To get in that position, to do that, I just think it's far more likely the way society is structured today; for an ENTP to be able to "maneuver" themselves if you will, into that position. Again, it just is what it is, when you try to look at it objectively, with respect to all types. That's just how the dice is going to end up rolling more often than not. Which is again, why I think all the lovely-la-di-da of traditional "typing," is only just so useful. When thing is going great in our lives, everyone's great for the most part. You need to know the *worst-case scenariors* for our types, you *need* to know how we go off when "wrong," and the damage that can cause, *and* then decide whether you're ok with that. It's up to you. People is always going to end up getting hurt in life. Ain't no politician can speak for us all, they almost always gonna seem to come up short in the end, no matter what they "promise..." why? Because, it's not just not easy, it's downright *impossible.* You can't please them all, all you can do is learn to respect...or *lose respect,* for someone's true motives.

It's A LOT easier to try and "correct" and "reach" someone like you, when there's obviously much of a soul still at play; than, it is Armstrong, who I have a line for that, but whatever, is just is what it is, in my opinion. He don't really, necessarily want to be reached just yet. It is what it is.

On a far "worser" scale, but I saw the one about the chemist or whatever, who "buried" her former husband "alive" in a vat of hydrochloric acid, a barrel, and stowed him away in public storage. On trial, one juror gives her the "thumbs up," as if to say, she said, "You did a good job..." ouch, and that's what I mean. That's the problem, of not being aware of types. It may be just circumstantial to you, but at some point, you have to just ask yourself the odds...realistically evaluate, *what are the odds.* I would bet almost certainly, that this lady was an ENTP...best, most capable, liars around when called upon to do so, they have that kind of "potential." But to me, this time, not in a good way, obviously. It just is what it is, bcs. that smokescreen she was so ridicuosly affluent at putting on for the jurors...beyond that, what was there? I mean, come on, think logically, emotionally, spiritually, whatever you want to call it...*why stow your former dud in a barrel of hcl, and close that tub, rub a dub, dub, knock-knock, you-hoo, remember me, um, know what I mean? I mean, yeah, come on, why...why have an employee rent the Uhaul, I mean, yeah, come on, hello, know what I mean, knock-knock, pinging you from the inside, but no body's listening no more...it just is what it is. Some people just ain't worth bother defending. Yeah, there's always that remote possibility...but even so, Armstrong's still not *that* worthy of to me. I don't think, he'd care that much about you, if he had that chance, and you got in his way, knowing what I've seen and experienced...it wouldn't be that much, for him to, ta-tah, flick, out of my way, flea...by the breezeway. Again, it just is what it is. That's in the wrong-way ENTP, who don't want to be corrected, and when every single fact rings true, can't acknowledge and simply "ignores" when able to...again, it just is what it is. Some the vilest, most meanest, "ugly" on the outside men I've met, are still able to acknowledge, there is that residual...that pinging awareness, deep down...it ain't that, way with Armstrong, just my opinion. Can't reach 'em all, some don't want to know, or know, but don't really care. Can't be bothered to.

Ok, got it - It's what it is!

LaneMyer
10-16-2012, 12:39 PM
it would be pretty ignorant to think any sport is clean these days. Too much money on the line for players not to attempt to gain an edge somewhere. Guilty until proven innocent isn't that outlandish. Unfair, but it is what it is. Tennis's schedule even more than baseball would motivate me for sure especially when talking about non-anabolic life/health threatening PEDs. The NHL has the biggest joke of a testing policy. There is actually a "Theraputic Use" exemption in their CBA that enables the use of certain PEDs if a doctor deems them necessary. 1 positive PED test in 8 years in the NHL in a sport where players are getting hit at 30mph. Yeah oh.

Clarky21
10-16-2012, 12:48 PM
Anyone still thinks Nadal is clean? Seriously? That's almost like believeing the earth is square or water and electricity go well together.



Same thing can be said for Count *******.

cc0509
10-16-2012, 06:28 PM
Judging by the pitiful attempts at defending Lance here, I can safely say that OJ didn't do it either!

Yes, it is hard to believe there are still people alive with functioning brains who think Armstrong could possibly be innocent. There is enough evidence to fill a landfill.

PCXL-Fan
10-16-2012, 06:45 PM
If an individual with very low body fat's jawline and facial features repeatedly fluctuate back and forth between masculine and softer/more-effeminate is that a symptom of fluctuating levels of testosterone?

Mustard
10-16-2012, 06:55 PM
Yes, it is hard to believe there are still people alive with functioning brains who think Armstrong could possibly be innocent. There is enough evidence to fill a landfill.

For goodness sake. The evidence is circumstantial and based on the testimonies of plea bargained cyclists and people with axes to grind. That should never be enough for a guilty verdict. The federal investigation collapsed for a reason.

Bartelby
10-16-2012, 07:12 PM
As if Armstrong doesn't have an axe to grind?

The federal investigation collapsed because of political and legal reasons.

The USADA evidence was not challenged by Armstrong and so it stands unrefuted.

Armstrong has spent millions on lawyers suing people so these investigations would be stymied, so tiredness is not the reason he did not challenge the evidence.

diadorakuerten
10-16-2012, 07:24 PM
For those who know little about the Lance Armstrong case I recommend they just shut up. The UCI and Nike have covered up positive tests by Lance Armstrong. When there is so much at stake it is everyone's interest to cover up the champion being caught in a scandal. Carl Lewis also tested positive before the Seoul Olympics and guess who got caught? Not Carl Lewis! And he continued to win countless gold medals after that.

A lot of people are delusional and for some reason that eludes me, want to believe their champions are clean even if there is a mountain of evidence against them.

Please watch this documentary on Lance Armstrong and you'll have a better understanding of the character he is and how the whole thing was covered up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q03sc8Aoyk0

Why is it that in tennis only lower ranked players get caught doping? You don't think the ATP will cover it up if Nadal, Fed or Djokovic test positive? Whose interests are they serving? Their own. It's in the ATP's interest to cover up any misdeeds from their top players.

It's probably super easy to not get caught. Most athletes never get caught even if they have been doping their whole lives. Last case was Christian Hesch, a elite runner, who has probably been doping his whole life (he admitted doping for only 2 years -> lies) and never failed a doping test because he competed in races where they don't test. He was caught by one of his teammates who found a vial of EPO in his jacket and ratted him out.

If tennis players use EPO, it would be very easy to microdose and not get caught when tested. What would be more difficult would be traveling with the EPO vials at all times because tennis players are not sedentary.

I bet there is also doping in golf. They can take adherol to have better focus.

3fees
10-16-2012, 07:41 PM
typical rabble if you cant beat them then accuse them of drug use,,,noah--thumbs down.

tudwell
10-16-2012, 08:11 PM
For goodness sake. The evidence is circumstantial and based on the testimonies of plea bargained cyclists and people with axes to grind. That should never be enough for a guilty verdict. The federal investigation collapsed for a reason.

He got a backdated prescription for a substance he was supposed to let the authorities know about ahead of time. That's only one instance, but it is undeniable. He violated the established procedure and somehow got off scot-free. That in and of itself is also not proof that he formed his whole career around doping, but I think it's very likely, given the prevalence of doping in the sport.

Now, I don't think players should be punished unless there's cold, hard evidence, but as a spectator, I'm well aware that most of the top professionals in nearly any sport are doping.

NadalAgassi
10-16-2012, 08:23 PM
The only thing I find hilarious is people who believe doping is a minority thing. The vast majority of elite athletes in ALL sports that require any kind of extreme physical strength, speed, or endurance dope. The poster who got it right is the one who said there are only two groups, the ones who are caught and the ones who arent. I feel sorry for the ones who are caught, especialy the champions who are vilified for kicking everyone elses butt doing what the rest were also doing (eg- Marion Jones and as much a ***** as he is Lance Armstrong).

RF_fan
10-16-2012, 08:24 PM
Armstrong said he never gained an unfair advantage. For some people, rather than this being Armstrong saying he's innocent, it's instead Armstrong saying that he took PEDs, but so was everyone else and therefore didn't think he had done anything wrong.

This is NOT proof of any guilt.

Just because all cyclists took PED's does not mean all of them would get the same performance boost. If you have more money to buy the best drugs and hire the best doctors, then you will "improve" more.

NadalAgassi
10-16-2012, 08:26 PM
For goodness sake. The evidence is circumstantial and based on the testimonies of plea bargained cyclists and people with axes to grind. That should never be enough for a guilty verdict. The federal investigation collapsed for a reason.

LOL are you really so naive to not believe the entire Tour de France crew of the last 10 years (atleast) was doped up to the eyeballs. Every star cyclist except Lance faled a drug test at some point, various teams were found overflowed with human growth hormone in their vans, so much they could barely fit it in. I doubt there is a single rider even in the Tour de France, including the poorest and last place finishers, who wasnt heavily doped. It is probably a requirement by every team to be part of their squad.

Good for Lance though. A vastly overrated one trick pony who all but the most delusional Americans realize is nowhere near the greatest cyclist of all time drugs or no drugs (lol at the latter not just for him but any elite cyclist in recent memory)
but he did win those 7 titles doing what all the others were doing so clearly cemented himself the top cyclist of his own era, although there appears to have been a vendetta to cover his *** unlike he others but that is a whole other topic.

RF_fan
10-16-2012, 08:36 PM
For those who know little about the Lance Armstrong case I recommend they just shut up. The UCI and Nike have covered up positive tests by Lance Armstrong. When there is so much at stake it is everyone's interest to cover up the champion being caught in a scandal. Carl Lewis also tested positive before the Seoul Olympics and guess who got caught? Not Carl Lewis! And he continued to win countless gold medals after that.

A lot of people are delusional and for some reason that eludes me, want to believe their champions are clean even if there is a mountain of evidence against them.

Please watch this documentary on Lance Armstrong and you'll have a better understanding of the character he is and how the whole thing was covered up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q03sc8Aoyk0

Why is it that in tennis only lower ranked players get caught doping? You don't think the ATP will cover it up if Nadal, Fed or Djokovic test positive? Whose interests are they serving? Their own. It's in the ATP's interest to cover up any misdeeds from their top players.

It's probably super easy to not get caught. Most athletes never get caught even if they have been doping their whole lives. Last case was Christian Hesch, a elite runner, who has probably been doping his whole life (he admitted doping for only 2 years -> lies) and never failed a doping test because he competed in races where they don't test. He was caught by one of his teammates who found a vial of EPO in his jacket and ratted him out.

If tennis players use EPO, it would be very easy to microdose and not get caught when tested. What would be more difficult would be traveling with the EPO vials at all times because tennis players are not sedentary.

I bet there is also doping in golf. They can take adherol to have better focus.
You're absolutely right about Carl Lewis.
When Basso, Ullrich, and other top cyclists were caught after 2005 TDF (and they finished #2, and #3 behind Lance) it was obvious Lance could not win if he was clean as doping gives any cyclist a huge advantage. So here's the proof, no positive test is needed. Another proof: all his accusers could not have fooled the investigators.

cc0509
10-16-2012, 11:48 PM
For goodness sake. The evidence is circumstantial and based on the testimonies of plea bargained cyclists and people with axes to grind. That should never be enough for a guilty verdict. The federal investigation collapsed for a reason.

Mustard I generally think you are a fair poster but on this issue you are out to lunch I am sorry.

It does not matter that most of the evidence is circumstantial, there is so much of it that there really is no doubt at all that Lance is guilty. No innocent person would stop fighting and let his medals be stripped away from him. He knew that if he went further with the whole case, he would be exposed publicly and ruined. At least this way some of his naive fans can go on thinking the world of him and his Livestrong Foundation and the good he has done for cancer can remain unharmed. How could any sane half intelligent person believe Armstrong is not guilty?

The next logical thing to take from this whole case is that if this sort of thing could go on in cycling, it most definitely goes on in tennis and every other sport as well. People who think doping is not a reality in pro sports are in denial.

cc0509
10-16-2012, 11:50 PM
diadorakuerten;6960006]For those who know little about the Lance Armstrong case I recommend they just shut up.

LOL.



The UCI and Nike have covered up positive tests by Lance Armstrong. When there is so much at stake it is everyone's interest to cover up the champion being caught in a scandal. Carl Lewis also tested positive before the Seoul Olympics and guess who got caught? Not Carl Lewis! And he continued to win countless gold medals after that.

A lot of people are delusional and for some reason that eludes me, want to believe their champions are clean even if there is a mountain of evidence against them.

Please watch this documentary on Lance Armstrong and you'll have a better understanding of the character he is and how the whole thing was covered up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q03sc8Aoyk0

Why is it that in tennis only lower ranked players get caught doping? You don't think the ATP will cover it up if Nadal, Fed or Djokovic test positive? Whose interests are they serving? Their own. It's in the ATP's interest to cover up any misdeeds from their top players.


Good post.

Bartelby
10-16-2012, 11:55 PM
The problem is that bodies like UCI and the ATP are not the best ones to monitor and sanction drug usage.

This is the unstated message coming out of the USADA report on Armstrong that will not unfortunately lead to real institutional change.

TennisLovaLova
10-17-2012, 02:26 AM
For goodness sake. The evidence is circumstantial and based on the testimonies of plea bargained cyclists and people with axes to grind. That should never be enough for a guilty verdict. The federal investigation collapsed for a reason.

sorry man, but all due respect, this kind of logic, even if it's right, doesnt work for the current case.
I read this morning that even Nike is now in trouble as they paid 500K$ to the UCI CEO to keep this doping affair under the radar

source: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-did-nike-pay-dollar-500000-to-verbruggen-to-cover-up-armstrong-positive

Rozroz
10-17-2012, 02:33 AM
what i really don't like about Tennis doping, if most of the top players using it, is that it's probably one of the main reason the game is now mostly a power contest with the stronger one winning.
i wonder if the game will still look the same if everyone was clean.

roberttennis54
10-17-2012, 04:55 AM
Doping in sports now is off the charts. The more money in the sport the more doping. I don't understand the fuss about Lance Armstrong. Everybody knew he was doped up to his gills and they all supported him and wrote hagiographies about him.

The worst sports when it comes to doping are American Football, Basketball, Football/Soccer, Rugby and then Swimming. Cycling and Athletics probably not as bad as these. You can make an Olympic final in most athletic events clean.

Tennis is in a very bad situation at the moment. A quick look at the top 10 reveals 5 clear dopers for me, another 2 I strongly suspect and would not be surprised about the other 3.

Noah is a hero for speaking out about the truth. Tennis needs to be cleaned up. Tennis is not a sport where doping improves the aesthetic quality of the sport either unlike say Football.

roberttennis54
10-17-2012, 04:59 AM
what i really don't like about Tennis doping, if most of the top players using it, is that it's probably one of the main reason the game is now mostly a power contest with the stronger one winning.
i wonder if the game will still look the same if everyone was clean.

Of course it would not. In football the doping has allowed technically gifted players to flourish, but it killed the Brazilian football of the 80s.

In tennis the opposite has happened. Players would be forced to come to net more to save energy, be more aggressive, pick the points they try one. They would have to stand closer to the baseline and most of them would hit the ball with far less pace.

roberttennis54
10-17-2012, 05:34 AM
Interesting. Care to share who the 5 dopers are?

No.
I will only name people who have failed test or been proven to have links to doping doctors.
So I will point out David Ferrer had links to Armstrong's doctor. If you are linked to doctors of that ilk then I think your name deserves to be mentioned.
and you should be under suspicion.

Rozroz
10-17-2012, 06:38 AM
OPlayers would be forced to come to net more to save energy, be more aggressive, pick the points they try one. They would have to stand closer to the baseline and most of them would hit the ball with far less pace.

GOOD! i wish they'll go back to that.
it makes you dig deep into your real abilities and talent to finish points.

BrooklynNY
10-17-2012, 07:26 AM
Not sure if any of you guys have been reading the Cycling Affadavits that have been comnig out recently.
http://t.co/hCMptucw
From Tyler Hamilton:
Hamilton Afdvt par53: "My experience w/ Dr. del Moral in 1999 is that he would sometimes authorize my use of cortisone for a made up injury."

Tyler Hamilton USADA Affidavit (para 44): "I got my EPO from Dr. del Moral's clinic in Valencia."


From Lance's Right hand man George Hincapie:
George Hincapie USADA Affidavit, para 48: "Dr. del Moral also provided testosterone to me from time to time."


Dr del Moral is the doctor who worked with Ferrer's academy in Valencia, TennisVal, and also Sara Errani and Safina...

Sabratha
10-17-2012, 09:41 AM
Doping is in every sport.

LaneMyer
10-17-2012, 11:37 AM
If an individual with very low body fat's jawline and facial features repeatedly fluctuate back and forth between masculine and softer/more-effeminate is that a symptom of fluctuating levels of testosterone?

or synthetic testosterone which is prevalent in all sports. Most famously in America with Ryan Braun. Supposedly synthetic testosterone, like HGH, only stays in your system for a few hours so if you aren't tested right after using you'll never be caught unless there's a paper trail. This is why many suspect he used before a game and was subsequently tested immediately after a game which triggered one of the highest level tests of testosterone the sport has seen to date.

citybert
10-17-2012, 11:48 AM
Noah is just trying to say that if everyone is doing it then it's a level playing field???

Ripster
10-17-2012, 12:47 PM
I can't believe there's some people that think Lance Armstrong is still innocent at this point.

NadalAgassi
10-17-2012, 12:58 PM
I can't believe there's some people that think Lance Armstrong is still innocent at this point.

I agree but none of his competitors are either. Cycling is a joke.

*Sparkle*
10-17-2012, 01:37 PM
I don't think there is much defending left of Armstrong. The whole of cycling was in it up to their eye-balls, and none of them are looking good.

Call me naive, but I don't think tennis is anything like cycling. I'm not saying there is no doping, or that there isn't any benefit or anything. I can imagine there is a strong motivation for players, especially if you are fairly talented, but only on the fringes of the big money. I can see why those players would think the risks are worth it, and perhaps a handful of the top ones too.

I don't think the advantages are so huge that a talented player couldn't have decent success without it, and if it were me, I'd much rather have a decent career, satisfied that I'm playing clean, and able to sleep without fear of getting found out.

Even if the odds of getting caught are low, the consequences are high. If it really is the case that the ATP would cover it up, then I'd place the responsibility firmly on them for letting players believe that.

I am surprised that some people can still be fans of the game whilst being so confident that it must be very widespread. If I believed that, I'd stop following it. I wonder if people who think that are just trying to reassure themselves that if their own favourite was doing it, their cheating is less of a big deal, or that it didn't give them any advantage.

I accept that the testing programme could be stricter, but I think it was always easier for a cyclist to take drugs and avoid testing than it has ever been for tennis players. The benefits of doping are far greater for cyclists too. There was a time when it probably was impossible for a non-doper to compete with the dopers in cycling, but tennis relies far more heavily on natural talent, and it's a talent that can be spotted in kids before they've got big and strong, or gained stamina. I'm convinced that it's easily possible for naturally talented, clean tennis players, to regularly beat their not so talented, doping rivals.

I think at the very least, the ATP needs to make sure the top of the game is as clean as can be, and that it is demonstrably so. It must see there is a risk that it will be affected by the fall-out from the cycling scandal, so it needs to be pro-active. It would be foolish to imagine they're going to invite a scandal by naming and shaming, but they could make it clear that as some time in the future, they will be enhancing the testing, including Olympic style threats of keeping samples for the future. With Nike ditching Armstrong, I can see sponsors wanting to support a more high profile approach too.

That should hopefully be enough to knock most of it on the head. Anyone who thinks they can't compete in that environment can quit, or accept a drop in form.

It will be annoying for players, but it's already annoying that if someone does well, there are some who will assume they could only have done so by cheating.

LaneMyer
10-17-2012, 02:17 PM
Good for Lance though. A vastly overrated one trick pony who all but the most delusional Americans realize is nowhere near the greatest cyclist of all time drugs or no drugs (lol at the latter not just for him but any elite cyclist in recent memory)
but he did win those 7 titles doing what all the others were doing so clearly cemented himself the top cyclist of his own era, although there appears to have been a vendetta to cover his *** unlike he others but that is a whole other topic.

No one here cares about cycling or it's records. During Lance's run the Tour de France was televised on a channel that generally ran rodeo, monster truck rallies, and infomercials for fitness equipment. Who wants to tune in to see who is best at exercising? We (some Americans) cared about his celebrity status and mostly the attention he brought to cancer research awareness and that's about it.

LaneMyer
10-17-2012, 02:32 PM
I am surprised that some people can still be fans of the game whilst being so confident that it must be very widespread. If I believed that, I'd stop following it. I wonder if people who think that are just trying to reassure themselves that if their own favourite was doing it, their cheating is less of a big deal, or that it didn't give them any advantage.

by now most fans are desensitized to PEDs in most, if not all, major revenue sports so we've just become accustomed to it. I was decent enough to play Division 1 college baseball and I knew of a few players who used various substances. Had I cared to use it, I could have purchased a season cycle of HGH for around $2K. In South American countries, and other countries, a lot of this stuff can be purchased over the counter which is why you see so many Dominican born baseball players getting busted with PEDs at the Major League and Minor League levels. It's dirt cheap there. It's just one of those things you try not to think about until a given player is pinched. There's no way in heavy cardio sports like tennis or soccer there aren't players out there using the same type of substances that cyclists or marathon runners use. And even if they aren't using prior to matches, they could be using something while training. That doesn't mean it's widespread in tennis, but it certainly could be when there are so many personal or team trainers and physios available to them.

TheMusicLover
10-17-2012, 04:01 PM
If anything that's become clear of this entire Armstrong cum suis-debacle, it's that the major Sports PTB are willing, able, and even more, certified to keep their Big Stars under the radar when it comes to doping.

Agassi's confession in his 'Open' biography already gave a major hint towards that.

I think it's fair to think that there's no player whatsoever beyond suspicion nowadays, and bloody hell, how sad is that. :(

Are we indeed witnessing fantastic ultra-fit players, or just a bunch of ped-infested dopers, nowadays? You tell me, and I'm not counting out anyone on the suspicions....

sundaypunch
10-17-2012, 04:26 PM
No one here cares about cycling or it's records. During Lance's run the Tour de France was televised on a channel that generally ran rodeo, monster truck rallies, and infomercials for fitness equipment. Who wants to tune in to see who is best at exercising? We (some Americans) cared about his celebrity status and mostly the attention he brought to cancer research awareness and that's about it.


Sadly, almost the same can be said of tennis.

BrooklynNY
10-17-2012, 04:27 PM
The Lance Armstrong report also mentions how the usage of those **** oxygen containers can be used to fool EPO tests. Text Below:

Via http://www.dropshotdispatch.com/2012/10/11/usadas-lance-armstrong-report-suggests-hypoxic-chambers-can-fool-epo-tests/



Last year, then-World No. 1 Novak Djokovic caused a stir when he mentioned using a hypoxic chamber called **** in his training.

The USADA’s recently released report on the findings in the Lance Armstrong doping case suggest that Armstrong’s doctor, Michelle Ferrari, advised the use of hypoxic chambers to fool EPO tests:

Dr. Ferrari recognized that the EPO testing method works through separating and measuring the quantity (known as “intensity”) of various types of EPO and comparing the ratio of EPO bands in what is known as the “basic” region (where the bands tend to be caused by the administration of synthetic EPO) to bands in the acidic region (where the bands are naturally produced).

However, because the test operates by measuring a ratio, the test can be fooled to a degree by increasing the amount of EPO in the acidic region (i.e., those produced naturally), which can be accomplished by stimulating natural production of EPO either through going to altitude or by sleeping in an altitude tent (also known as a “hypoxic chamber”). Dr. Ferrari advised the use of hypoxic chambers to reduce the effectiveness of the EPO test in detecting the use of synthetic EPO. Regular training at altitude (such as at St. Moritz, Tenerife or Aspen) would achieve a similar result.

The use of such chambers is likely common among professional athletes, including other tennis players, but the information is nonetheless interesting.

cc0509
10-17-2012, 06:14 PM
If anything that's become clear of this entire Armstrong cum suis-debacle, it's that the major Sports PTB are willing, able, and even more, certified to keep their Big Stars under the radar when it comes to doping.

Agassi's confession in his 'Open' biography already gave a major hint towards that.

I think it's fair to think that there's no player whatsoever beyond suspicion nowadays, and bloody hell, how sad is that. :(

Are we indeed witnessing fantastic ultra-fit players, or just a bunch of ped-infested dopers, nowadays? You tell me, and I'm not counting out anyone on the suspicions....

Both............

Clarky21
10-17-2012, 06:25 PM
The Lance Armstrong report also mentions how the usage of those **** oxygen containers can be used to fool EPO tests. Text Below:

Via http://www.dropshotdispatch.com/2012/10/11/usadas-lance-armstrong-report-suggests-hypoxic-chambers-can-fool-epo-tests/



Last year, then-World No. 1 Novak Djokovic caused a stir when he mentioned using a hypoxic chamber called **** in his training.

The USADA’s recently released report on the findings in the Lance Armstrong doping case suggest that Armstrong’s doctor, Michelle Ferrari, advised the use of hypoxic chambers to fool EPO tests:

Dr. Ferrari recognized that the EPO testing method works through separating and measuring the quantity (known as “intensity”) of various types of EPO and comparing the ratio of EPO bands in what is known as the “basic” region (where the bands tend to be caused by the administration of synthetic EPO) to bands in the acidic region (where the bands are naturally produced).

However, because the test operates by measuring a ratio, the test can be fooled to a degree by increasing the amount of EPO in the acidic region (i.e., those produced naturally), which can be accomplished by stimulating natural production of EPO either through going to altitude or by sleeping in an altitude tent (also known as a “hypoxic chamber”). Dr. Ferrari advised the use of hypoxic chambers to reduce the effectiveness of the EPO test in detecting the use of synthetic EPO. Regular training at altitude (such as at St. Moritz, Tenerife or Aspen) would achieve a similar result.

The use of such chambers is likely common among professional athletes, including other tennis players, but the information is nonetheless interesting.


Very interesting. Explains how a chronically tired player like ******* does a complete 180 with his fitness and stamina in a month's time at the end of 2010. It really could not more obvious.

PCXL-Fan
10-18-2012, 01:32 AM
The insanity with Djokers 180 improvement was he outlasted Nadal of all people. The guy who survived the brutal 5hour semi in AO 2009 and came back in the final to outlast a tiring Fed in the 5th.

BigServer1
10-18-2012, 07:23 AM
Same thing can be said for Count *******.

Best nickname yet...Absolutely love this.

librarysteg
10-18-2012, 07:48 AM
I haven't seen this article posted yet...Is Tennis Doing Enough on Doping

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/tennis/2012/10/18/is-tennis-doing-enough-on-doping/1639911/

NadalAgassi
10-18-2012, 08:00 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/15/lance-armstrong-tour-de-france-doping/1635499/

Tour de France sees no win in picking another loser



9:58PM EDT October 15. 2012 - Of the 21 top three finishers in the Tour de France during Lance Armstrong's victory streak, only one has not been tied to doping, according to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency.

His name is Fernando Escartin, who finished third in 1999 -- the first of Armstrong's seven consecutive titles -- and even Escartin is subject to suspicion.

According to Italian court documents from 2004, Escartin received performance-enhancing drugs from doctor Michele Ferrari, the alleged doping mastermind for several riders, including Armstrong.

So perhaps it's not surprising that the director of the Tour de France declared that if the International Cycling Union (UCI) decides not to appeal USADA's decision to ban Armstrong for life and strip him of his seven Tour titles, there will be no replacement winner named for years 1999 through 2005.

"It indicates that no one in the races was above suspicion, which highlights the fact that doping was prevalent during the entire period," says Dick Pound, former president of the World Anti-Doping Agency.

UCI has 21 days to decide whether it will appeal USADA's case, which includes statements from 26 witnesses, many of them Armstrong's teammates, that he was at the center of a team doping conspiracy for years. If UCI does not appeal, the Tour's decision to vacate the titles differs from its previous decisions, in 2006 and 2010, when it awarded stripped titles to runner-ups.

Tour de France director Christian Prudhomme, in an interview with The Associated Press over the weekend, declined to address the reason for the policy change, although no explanation is really necessary for those who follow cycling.

"What good does it serve anyone to take the victory away from somebody who doped and give it to somebody else who doped?" says Neal Rogers, editor of cycling magazine Velo. "This decision makes a statement that this was a dark period. They're saying, 'We don't want to award it to anybody.'"

Yet if no other rider is declared the winner of the Tour de France for those years, won't Armstrong always be able to claim he won?

"He might try to spin in that way," Rogers says. "But if anybody is the deserving winner of those seven tours, it's Ferrari."

A test to detect use of the drug erythropoietin (EPO), used to boost a rider's red blood-cell count, was not widely implemented until 2001. Before that, Rogers says it was the "Wild West" for riders and drugs.

"To be in the Top 5 or even the Top 10 of the Tour de France in 1999 or even 2000, you had to be using EPO," he says. "Why wouldn't you? You're competing, and that's what it took."

The Armstrong case also includes other riders who weren't previously implicated but came forward as witnesses in the USADA investigation. In exchange for their confessions about doping, six of Armstrong's former teammates were given reduced punishments by USADA.

Armstrong's attorneys called them "sweetheart deals" and said it undermines the riders' credibility as witnesses. All six agreed to testify against Armstrong and admit their own cheating. Most had never tested positive but testified on the methods the team used to avoid getting caught and pass drug tests. The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency gave each of them the minimum six-month suspension, all to start after racing season.

In Armstrong's point of view, USADA agreeing to minimum penalties for confessed cheaters proves that the agency's investigation was a "witch hunt" against him.

Richard Young, an attorney for USADA, rejected that argument and instead likened Armstrong to the leader of a drug cartel in an era or rampant drug use.

If Armstrong had cooperated, he might have gotten a lighter sentence, Young says. But he didn't, and Young says the massive amount of evidence pointed to Armstrong as the ringleader of an elaborate scheme to cheat and avoid detection.

"The guy who is the head of the cartel is in a different position in terms of treatment than either the dealer on street or guy that you catch (using drugs)," Young says. "His role was significantly different than other riders."

Mustard
10-18-2012, 10:10 AM
Armstrong is being witch hunted against. They have no actual proof of him cheating, just circumstantial stuff and testimonies from plea bargained cyclists and people with grudges. That is a fact. It's pure McCarthyism. "Oh, he did this so he must be cheating", repeat it a thousand times in sensationalist articles and people think the evidence is overwhelming and they believe it's true.

NadalAgassi
10-18-2012, 10:12 AM
Armstrong is being witch hunted against. They have no actual proof of him cheating, just circumstantial stuff and testimonies from plea bargained cyclists and people with grudges. That is a fact. It's pure McCarthyism. "Oh, he did this so he must be cheating", repeat it a thousand times in sensationalist articles and people think the evidence is overwhelming and they believe it's true.

It is too cute you think any Tour de France cyclist (especialy a contender) in that period was clean, be it Armstrong or anyone else. Do you still believe in Santy Clause.

Mustard
10-18-2012, 10:15 AM
It is too cute you think any Tour de France cyclist (especialy a contender) in that period was clean, be it Armstrong or anyone else. Do you still believe in Santy Clause.

I'm talking about the evidence. It is circumstantial and is not proof of anything. And plea bargaining is basically blackmail and per-verting the course of justice, so that alone should void the findings as the conviction is unsafe.

NadalAgassi
10-18-2012, 10:58 AM
Who gives a damn. Everyone in the Tour de France was doping in that period and everyone knows it. The solution the article I quoted is the perfect one, strip Armstrong but dont give his titles to anyone else either. Leave the Tour de France winner all those years blank so everyone knows that whole period was just a worthless human growth hormone infested farce.

Mustard
10-18-2012, 11:05 AM
Who gives a damn. Everyone in the Tour de France was doping in that period and everyone knows it. The solution the article I quoted is the perfect one, strip Armstrong but dont give his titles to anyone else either. Leave the Tour de France winner all those years blank so everyone knows that whole period was just a worthless human growth hormone infested farce.

The others failed drug tests and got banned. Armstrong didn't.

BrooklynNY
10-18-2012, 11:11 AM
Armstrong would tell the UCI to go after rival team's riders, all the while they were protecting him. I think this is a key element to the entire ordeal that is lost because of the entire 'well everyone was doing it' defense

PCXL-Fan
10-18-2012, 11:31 AM
The others failed drug tests and got banned. Armstrong didn't.

Why can't you imagine they were a step ahead of the tests? That is what all experts say doping is at now.

jamesblakefan#1
10-18-2012, 12:15 PM
Armstrong is being witch hunted against. They have no actual proof of him cheating, just circumstantial stuff and testimonies from plea bargained cyclists and people with grudges. That is a fact. It's pure McCarthyism. "Oh, he did this so he must be cheating", repeat it a thousand times in sensationalist articles and people think the evidence is overwhelming and they believe it's true.

Circumstantial? When his entire team and teammates say they saw him doing it, do you really think all these guys just really really hate Lance and are jealous/out to get him? Please. It's pretty clear now that in a sport seeped in drugging, Lance wasn't the clean one. BTW most criminal cases rely on circumstantial evidence, not a 'smoking gun' as it were.

BTW the comments from people on this article are pretty absurd. Basically anyone that says there are dopers in tennis is derided for being jealous; same thing happened w/ Vania King a few months ago.

http://www.tennis.com/news/2012/10/blake-there-are-dopers-tennis/39827/#.UIBgxm_A_Np

Mustard
10-18-2012, 12:58 PM
Circumstantial? When his entire team and teammates say they saw him doing it, do you really think all these guys just really really hate Lance and are jealous/out to get him? Please. It's pretty clear now that in a sport seeped in drugging, Lance wasn't the clean one. BTW most criminal cases rely on circumstantial evidence, not a 'smoking gun' as it were.

Have you heard of plea bargaining? "Tell us something incriminating about Lance Armstrong, and we'll go easy on you. Refuse, and we'll do our worst". As I said before, plea bargaining is legalised blackmail and per-verting the course of justice. It should be made illegal.

roberttennis54
10-18-2012, 04:14 PM
Have you heard of plea bargaining? "Tell us something incriminating about Lance Armstrong, and we'll go easy on you. Refuse, and we'll do our worst". As I said before, plea bargaining is legalised blackmail and per-verting the course of justice. It should be made illegal.

To keep my sanity I am just going to choose to believe you are a Lance Armstrong friend/relative.

cc0509
10-18-2012, 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Mustard
Have you heard of plea bargaining? "Tell us something incriminating about Lance Armstrong, and we'll go easy on you. Refuse, and we'll do our worst". As I said before, plea bargaining is legalised blackmail and per-verting the course of justice. It should be made illegal.




To keep my sanity I am just going to choose to believe you are a Lance Armstrong friend/relative.

Yes, it is hard to believe that Mustard and many others out there just don't get it. I find it funny and scary at the same time. Not worth beating your head against the wall, some people are just clueless for whatever reasons.

roberttennis54
10-18-2012, 04:29 PM
Yes, it is hard to believe that Mustard and many others out there just don't get it. I find it funny and scary at the same time. Not worth beating your head against the wall, some people are just clueless for whatever reasons.

Yep you are right no point arguing with people like that.

sonicare
10-20-2012, 10:05 AM
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=443529

PCXL-Fan
10-20-2012, 03:48 PM
The others failed drug tests and got banned. Armstrong didn't.

Explain to me how Marion Jones beat all 160 drug tests she took over her 10 year career in events all over the world?

Bjorn99
10-20-2012, 05:24 PM
Explain to me how Marion Jones beat all 160 drug tests she took over her 10 year career in events all over the world?

The best doping authority I ever met is now dead, Ben Johnson's coach. And he explained to me that a good doper can always be one step ahead of the tests.

AND, that only occasionally will they bust someone, for some reason, that only they know.

Anyone who is anyone in sports, business, entertainment is on this **** now. I know I sure am. And the best of the best. Not synthetic, the finest, compound pharma out there. Its amazing.

ivan_the_terrible
10-22-2012, 07:23 AM
The best doping authority I ever met is now dead, Ben Johnson's coach. And he explained to me that a good doper can always be one step ahead of the tests.

AND, that only occasionally will they bust someone, for some reason, that only they know.

Anyone who is anyone in sports, business, entertainment is on this **** now. I know I sure am. And the best of the best. Not synthetic, the finest, compound pharma out there. Its amazing.

Care to elaborate? Are you Canadian? You're right Charlie Francis knew a whole lot about doping, not sure if he wrote a book on it or not...

SLD76
10-22-2012, 01:37 PM
Armstrong is being witch hunted against. They have no actual proof of him cheating, just circumstantial stuff and testimonies from plea bargained cyclists and people with grudges. That is a fact. It's pure McCarthyism. "Oh, he did this so he must be cheating", repeat it a thousand times in sensationalist articles and people think the evidence is overwhelming and they believe it's true.

circumstantial evidence like bank statements, wire transfers and phone records?

seriously, did you read the report??

SLD76
10-22-2012, 01:39 PM
Very interesting. Explains how a chronically tired player like ******* does a complete 180 with his fitness and stamina in a month's time at the end of 2010. It really could not more obvious.

I still LOL at the end of the 2012 AO where rafa says to djoker "congratulations to your team...they do something amazing" and djoker shoots rafa a cold look for a split second like "watch it rafa" lol.

but yeah...gluten free my behind :P

sureshs
10-22-2012, 02:29 PM
circumstantial evidence like bank statements, wire transfers and phone records?

seriously, did you read the report??

Such evidence needs to be collected under judicial oversight and presented before a judge, not collected by a quasi-government outfit with no constitutional obligations which passes its own judgments.

Rozroz
10-22-2012, 03:14 PM
"congratulations to your team...they do something amazing" and djoker shoots rafa a cold look for a split second like "watch it rafa" lol.

:P

takes one to know one, lol

sureshs
10-22-2012, 03:19 PM
Circumstantial? When his entire team and teammates say they saw him doing it, do you really think all these guys just really really hate Lance and are jealous/out to get him? Please.

It is perfectly possible.

What weight can to be given to circumstantial evidence needs to be decided by a judge, not by you and me.

SLD76
10-22-2012, 04:03 PM
Such evidence needs to be collected under judicial oversight and presented before a judge, not collected by a quasi-government outfit with no constitutional obligations which passes its own judgments.

so I take it you find the freeh report regarding jerry sandusky insufficient as well?

i guess nothing but catching someone in the act is proof positive.

corners
10-22-2012, 05:04 PM
It is perfectly possible.

What weight can to be given to circumstantial evidence needs to be decided by a judge, not by you and me.

No, it gets decided on by a jury of peers. People like you and me.

Have you read the report, BTW? It's utterly damning. Any reasonable juror presented this evidence would convict. Armstrong knew this, obviously, which is why he did not contest it and why he's been stripped of his titles. Justice has been done, finally, after years and years of scamming cycling, cheating his competition, making fools of his devoted fans and generally making a mockery of the spirit of sport.

merlinpinpin
10-22-2012, 10:59 PM
I still LOL at the end of the 2012 AO where rafa says to djoker "congratulations to your team...they do something amazing" and djoker shoots rafa a cold look for a split second like "watch it rafa" lol.

but yeah...gluten free my behind :P

As JMac said in 1992: "You can tell when someone has been on steroids… A guy bulks up, has a new body and never gets tired...You see these guys or girls who come onto the tour talking about their new training programs and their diets where they eat this or that new thing…but they’ll never tell you about the drugs they took."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19920601&id=nN8VAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4hIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5751,254816

SLD76
10-23-2012, 03:37 AM
No, it gets decided on by a jury of peers. People like you and me.

Have you read the report, BTW? It's utterly damning. Any reasonable juror presented this evidence would convict. Armstrong knew this, obviously, which is why he did not contest it and why he's been stripped of his titles. Justice has been done, finally, after years and years of scamming cycling, cheating his competition, making fools of his devoted fans and generally making a mockery of the spirit of sport.

i guess the fact that nike spent money to keep evidence from coming alight makes no matter either.

ace_pace
10-23-2012, 05:03 AM
Think about it. Theres more money in making PEDs than it is to find them. As long as it is this way, it will stay that way.

Murrayfan31
10-23-2012, 05:47 AM
Nadal just like Bonds is obviously taking.

sureshs
10-23-2012, 06:26 AM
No, it gets decided on by a jury of peers. People like you and me.


The judge decides what is presented to the jury.

People can say a thousand things - it means nothing. Especially with a celebrity. There are people who take great pleasure in bringing celebrities down.

SLD76
10-23-2012, 10:23 AM
The judge decides what is presented to the jury.

People can say a thousand things - it means nothing. Especially with a celebrity. There are people who take great pleasure in bringing celebrities down.

yes, its all about taking lance armstrong down.

give me a break.

sportstennis
11-05-2012, 09:47 AM
that Nadal

Speranza
01-15-2013, 05:19 AM
Armstrong is being witch hunted against. They have no actual proof of him cheating, just circumstantial stuff and testimonies from plea bargained cyclists and people with grudges. That is a fact. It's pure McCarthyism. "Oh, he did this so he must be cheating", repeat it a thousand times in sensationalist articles and people think the evidence is overwhelming and they believe it's true.

Sorry Mustard, but as a few people pointed out, you may have been a touch naive on this one:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21024288

Clarky21
01-15-2013, 06:11 AM
Sorry Mustard, but as a few people pointed out, you may have been a touch naive on this one:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21024288


Armstrong is an obvious doper. Anyone who believed otherwise is VERY naive. It's the same naivety that makes people believe tennis is a clean sport when every other sport on earth is rife with doping.

TennisLovaLova
01-15-2013, 10:39 AM
Lance never used anything.
And even if he did, there is no formal proof or anything that he was aware he was doping.
Richard Virenque was concinced of doping but he said he was using against his own will.
Anyway, Lance is clean.
Doping or not, the guy won le tour 7 times. He had that little extra thing in his mind, the desire to win. And that nobody will take it away from him.

BreakPoint
01-15-2013, 10:59 AM
Lance never used anything.
And even if he did, there is no formal proof or anything that he was aware he was doping.
Richard Virenque was concinced of doping but he said he was using against his own will.
Anyway, Lance is clean.
Doping or not, the guy won le tour 7 times. He had that little extra thing in his mind, the desire to win. And that nobody will take it away from him.
Um....Lance Armstrong just admitted to Oprah in an interview that he was doping and that he threatened those around him to keep it quiet. Of course he knew he was doping! When he was shooting up everyday, what did he think he was doing? When he was drawing out his own blood and storing it for later use, what did he think he was doing?

Lance is as clean as the underwear of a guy with severe diarrhea with no access to a toilet!

Speranza
01-15-2013, 11:01 AM
Lance never used anything.
And even if he did, there is no formal proof or anything that he was aware he was doping.
Richard Virenque was concinced of doping but he said he was using against his own will.
Anyway, Lance is clean.
Doping or not, the guy won le tour 7 times. He had that little extra thing in his mind, the desire to win. And that nobody will take it away from him.

Holmes: Did you read the link I posted a few points above?

Please don't say you did, else I'll have to send the nurse squad around.

Clarky21
01-15-2013, 11:04 AM
Lance never used anything.
And even if he did, there is no formal proof or anything that he was aware he was doping.
Richard Virenque was concinced of doping but he said he was using against his own will.
Anyway, Lance is clean.
Doping or not, the guy won le tour 7 times. He had that little extra thing in his mind, the desire to win. And that nobody will take it away from him.


He admitted he's a filthy doper who threatened and bribed anyone and everyone around him to keep quiet. Now even the accused admitting to what he did is still not enough for the Armstrong defenders? Unreal.

DRII
01-15-2013, 11:12 AM
Again; yesterdays doping (PEDs) is today's newest nutritional supplements/biology techniques and vice versa...

DropShotArtist
01-15-2013, 11:19 AM
Will Nadal follow suit soon?

forzamilan90
01-15-2013, 11:29 AM
Um....Lance Armstrong just admitted to Oprah in an interview that he was doping and that he threatened those around him to keep it quiet. Of course he knew he was doping! When he was shooting up everyday, what did he think he was doing? When he was drawing out his own blood and storing it for later use, what did he think he was doing?

Lance is as clean as the underwear of a guy with severe diarrhea with no access to a toilet!

Beautiful analogy

TennisLovaLova
01-15-2013, 11:18 PM
hmm... my trolling failed obviously
I was just trying to write something a hardcore Lance fan would say