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librarysteg
10-18-2012, 08:02 AM
With all the doping talk around here lately, here's a big article from USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/tennis/2012/10/18/is-tennis-doing-enough-on-doping/1639911/

Testing Tipsarevic in Kenya! I found that impressive on the part of the testers. Sorry if this is posted somewhere else, I looked but couldn't find it.

CMM
10-18-2012, 08:06 AM
Testing Tipsarevic in Kenya! I found that impressive on the part of the testers.

Even more impressive was to read that Tipsarevic is training in Africa.

joeri888
10-18-2012, 08:09 AM
Speed up the courts! Tennis is and should be primarily a technical rather than a physical sport. It is more on par with soccer, volleybal, table tennis, basketball and golf, than with rowing, cycling and running and swimming. As long as it stays that way, tennis will always be fairer. On the other hand, if the public, the audience, the tournaments want to see Djokovic-Nadal 6 hour war rallies, than you are co-responsible if tennis becomes a doping sport. I am not saying Djokovic and Nadal do it, but the circumstances make it very rewarding to dope. And it shouldn't be. Heterogenize the courts, speed a lot of them up, and make the balls lighter.

tennis_pro
10-18-2012, 09:13 AM
Speed up the courts! Tennis is and should be primarily a technical rather than a physical sport. It is more on par with soccer, volleybal, table tennis, basketball and golf, than with rowing, cycling and running and swimming. As long as it stays that way, tennis will always be fairer. On the other hand, if the public, the audience, the tournaments want to see Djokovic-Nadal 6 hour war rallies, than you are co-responsible if tennis becomes a doping sport. I am not saying Djokovic and Nadal do it, but the circumstances make it very rewarding to dope. And it shouldn't be. Heterogenize the courts, speed a lot of them up, and make the balls lighter.

I agree completely.

I'd prefer watching 100% legit Karlovic-Isner servefests than some all-time great matches where (as it turns out later on) doping was involved. It's like watching an online battle between the best 2 players in the world in Unreal Tournament. Would it be fun to know that they used mods that allowed them to see through walls? Or would you rather enjoy a technically lower quality duel but between 2 non-cheating players?

NadalAgassi
10-18-2012, 09:17 AM
I am still amazed there are people who seem oblivious to the fact that in all sports today atleast 65% of the international competitors (even the bottom feeders) are heavily doped. It would be nice if this wasnt the case, but it is.

BrooklynNY
10-18-2012, 09:19 AM
Yeah it's impressive doping controls made it to Kenya... considering there is a huge doping investigation going on in Kenya
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/9572277/Kenyans-athletes-under-scrutiny-in-doping-inquiry.html

Maybe Janko should reconsider Kenya, maybe for a place like Jamaica ;)

tennis_pro
10-18-2012, 09:22 AM
I am still amazed there are people who seem oblivious to the fact that in all sports today atleast 65% of the international competitors (even the bottom feeders) are heavily doped. It would be nice if this wasnt the case, but it is.

If it turned out that Federer (and only Federer) was doping, I'd lose 100% respect to him and at the same time appreciate every other member of the top 10 (especially Nadal).

But if the test showed that everyone in the top 10 (or generally at the top - mostly the top 4) where dopers, I'd consider stepping away from watching tennis.

Rozroz
10-18-2012, 09:24 AM
I'd consider stepping away from watching tennis.

so how will you pass your time? ;)

veroniquem
10-18-2012, 09:25 AM
Yeah serve fests are SO captivating :roll: If you really want tennis to nosedive in the ratings, speed up the courts to the max. Good idea :???: Then R.I.P. tennis as a source of entertainment. :mad:
The only way to go is medium paced for most events (players can use all their weapons: offense and defense) + keep some extreme slow and fast to spice things up and for some good old fashioned contrast.
About doping issues, chances are they all do stuff to improve their perfs, endurance, speed and so on. Pro sport and idealism tend to not mix well especially when a huge amount of money is at stake. For the most naive among us: welcome to the dark side of human nature.

BrooklynNY
10-18-2012, 09:27 AM
If it turned out that Federer (and only Federer) was doping, I'd lose 100% respect to him and at the same time appreciate every other member of the top 10 (especially Nadal).

But if the test showed that everyone in the top 10 (or generally at the top - mostly the top 4) where dopers, I'd consider stepping away from watching tennis.

This is exactly why tennis/ITF/ATP have a serious conflict of interest on their hands, and why would consider not making cases like these public. i.e Agassi's positive(doesn't matter the substance) being swept under the rug.


The same people in charge of busting their stars for potential cheating, are the same people in charge with Marketing the current stars.

NadalAgassi
10-18-2012, 09:30 AM
If it turned out that Federer (and only Federer) was doping, I'd lose 100% respect to him and at the same time appreciate every other member of the top 10 (especially Nadal).

But if the test showed that everyone in the top 10 (or generally at the top - mostly the top 4) where dopers, I'd consider stepping away from watching tennis.

Doping has been widespread in practically all sports for years. I dont believe tennis players use as many drugs as say a weightlifter or track athlete as there would be drawbacks to being too big or muscular, but I do believe the majority use some form like most sports today. I dont fault the athletes, I fault the incompetent chemists on the good side who cant keep up with the bad chemists. Maybe if sports got some smarter people and better scientists working for the good guys the doping problem in sports could be eradicated.

veroniquem
10-18-2012, 09:37 AM
This is exactly why tennis/ITF/ATP have a serious conflict of interest on their hands, and why would consider not making cases like these public. i.e Agassi's positive(doesn't matter the substance) being swept under the rug.


The same people in charge of busting their stars for potential cheating, are the same people in charge with Marketing the current stars.

Except, Agassi's case had nothing to do with doping. The (recreational) drug affected his game entirely negatively (he couldn't win a match in that period). Maybe the tennis officials are bright enough to understand that and not treat the case the same way they would doping.

librarysteg
10-18-2012, 09:38 AM
Aside from tennis, I'm not much of a sports fan so I don't follow any of this anywhere else. What are the big arguments against just allowing some of these drugs? Obviously steroids have long term health risks, but it sounds like some of the newer methods don't and an argument could be made in favor of allowing them as part of whatever health regimens are in place with diets, vitamins, etc. In a perfect world I wouldn't want this, but if it's what most people are doing maybe it's better to bring it out of the closet and reconsider some of the regulations.

tennis_pro
10-18-2012, 09:45 AM
so how will you pass your time? ;)

That's an excellent question.:)

I'm still losing interest in tennis as we speak (too many grinders, surfaces too slow), though but it's a slow process.

If it turned out that tennis players were dopers, first and foremost I'd hope that they were cleaned out, never allowed to play a single match again and new strickt rules were introduced.

ruerooo
10-18-2012, 09:48 AM
Tennis is and should be primarily a technical rather than a physical sport.

That's so stupid. What -- according to whom, you? Is the ATP consulting you?

:roll:

It is and always has been both, and moreover has always been classified as an *endurance* sport.

BrooklynNY
10-18-2012, 10:12 AM
Except, Agassi's case had nothing to do with doping. The (recreational) drug affected his game entirely negatively (he couldn't win a match in that period). Maybe the tennis officials are bright enough to understand that and not treat the case the same way they would doping.
It has to do with making exceptions to a rule, and being willing to cover up for a star. Which seems like the Jelly to Doping's Peanut Butter if a scandal ever reached that point.


Maybe they aren't - considering how Gasquet and Hingis faced disciplinary action, for the (recreational) drug Cocaine.

Maybe there is favoritism at play. Maybe.

LaneMyer
10-18-2012, 10:16 AM
Aside from tennis, I'm not much of a sports fan so I don't follow any of this anywhere else. What are the big arguments against just allowing some of these drugs? Obviously steroids have long term health risks, but it sounds like some of the newer methods don't and an argument could be made in favor of allowing them as part of whatever health regimens are in place with diets, vitamins, etc. In a perfect world I wouldn't want this, but if it's what most people are doing maybe it's better to bring it out of the closet and reconsider some of the regulations.

well I'd suspect the major reason is many of these new 'designer' PEDs are new and while they seem like they're safer than your hardcore anabolic steroids no one really knows. I mean allergy medication like Seldane(sp?) was though to be safe too and later discovered to lead to heart trouble. So if the ATP allowed a substance to be used and it turned out later not to be safe - hello lawsuits for negligence. That said, there's always some hypocrisy with this stuff as a basic cortisone shot is a performance enhancer, and I'm not sure how prevalent they are in tennis, but in most sports they are and widely deemed perfectly fine.

veroniquem
10-18-2012, 10:23 AM
It has to do with making exceptions to a rule, and being willing to cover up for a star. Which seems like the Jelly to Doping's Peanut Butter if a scandal ever reached that point.


Maybe they aren't - considering how Gasquet and Hingis faced disciplinary action, for the (recreational) drug Cocaine.

Maybe there is favoritism at play. Maybe.

There is a difference between crystal meth and cocaine. There is no way cm is gonna improve your perf, it's almost guaranteed to hamper it whereas cocaine is a substance well known for its efficiency at "masking" usage of actual doping products.

smash hit
10-18-2012, 02:13 PM
Except, Agassi's case had nothing to do with doping. The (recreational) drug affected his game entirely negatively (he couldn't win a match in that period). Maybe the tennis officials are bright enough to understand that and not treat the case the same way they would doping.

Just a thought with regard to Agassi. People seem to differentiate between PED's etc. and recreational drugs. I don't really buy this view. Many people will agree that much of the game of tennis is related to mental attitude. Agassi himself said that the "drugs made him feel euphoric, they swept away every negative thought, he had never felt so alive, so hopeful and he never felt such energy" I feel sure that these positive feelings would go quite a way in enhancing performance.

pound cat
10-18-2012, 02:21 PM
If it turned out that Federer (and only Federer) was doping, I'd lose 100% respect to him and at the same time appreciate every other member of the top 10 (especially Nadal).

But if the test showed that everyone in the top 10 (or generally at the top - mostly the top 4) where dopers, I'd consider stepping away from watching tennis.

I hope your second sport is NHL hockey. You might be spending a lot of nights watching Youtube.

smash hit
10-18-2012, 02:22 PM
Yeah serve fests are SO captivating :roll: If you really want tennis to nosedive in the ratings, speed up the courts to the max. Good idea :???: Then R.I.P. tennis as a source of entertainment. :mad:
The only way to go is medium paced for most events (players can use all their weapons: offense and defense) + keep some extreme slow and fast to spice things up and for some good old fashioned contrast.

Totally agree. Tennis is about so much more than serving. If serve fests are to be encouraged then tennis is dead. Should we forget about stroke play and strategy, movement on the court and all the other necessaries needed to play good tennis? Instead have a target at the end of the court give each player a set number of serves and see who gets the highest score. Game over.

veroniquem
10-18-2012, 02:39 PM
Just a thought with regard to Agassi. People seem to differentiate between PED's etc. and recreational drugs. I don't really buy this view. Many people will agree that much of the game of tennis is related to mental attitude. Agassi himself said that the "drugs made him feel euphoric, they swept away every negative thought, he had never felt so alive, so hopeful and he never felt such energy" I feel sure that these positive feelings would go quite a way in enhancing performance.

This "positive feeling" thing may have worked the first time but it sure didn't in the long run. As I said, he started losing every first round during that period. Alcohol also makes you euphoric at first but in the long term, it's a depressant.

dimeaxe
10-18-2012, 03:25 PM
This "positive feeling" thing may have worked the first time but it sure didn't in the long run. As I said, he started losing every first round during that period. Alcohol also makes you euphoric at first but in the long term, it's a depressant.

If you drink whiskey or tequila there's only short term:twisted::twisted::twisted:

cc0509
10-18-2012, 04:06 PM
If it turned out that Federer (and only Federer) was doping, I'd lose 100% respect to him and at the same time appreciate every other member of the top 10 (especially Nadal).

But if the test showed that everyone in the top 10 (or generally at the top - mostly the top 4) where dopers, I'd consider stepping away from watching tennis.

With all due respect, that is a naive view of pro sports. All pro sports are flooded with dopers and in order to be competitive and get to the top and stay at the top, you can pretty much be certain that the top pro athletes dope. You just have to think of it as a reality and not worry about it. If you seriously have that attitude that you would not watch tennis if you knew most in the top ten were doping, you would not be watching tennis or any sport. Doping or using some kind of herb or product to enhance performance has been going on in pro sports since the beginning of time.

cc0509
10-18-2012, 04:12 PM
Doping has been widespread in practically all sports for years. I dont believe tennis players use as many drugs as say a weightlifter or track athlete as there would be drawbacks to being too big or muscular, but I do believe the majority use some form like most sports today. I dont fault the athletes, I fault the incompetent chemists on the good side who cant keep up with the bad chemists. Maybe if sports got some smarter people and better scientists working for the good guys the doping problem in sports could be eradicated.


Don't count on it, it is not going to happen. It is in the best interests of everybody from the athlete, the people who govern tennis (i.e. ITF/ATP/WTA) on down to the sponsors of athletes to realize that doping takes place but just sweep it under the rug so the general public does not find out and tarnish the sport.

roberttennis54
10-18-2012, 04:12 PM
You don't need to dope to succeed at the top level at sport, but doping is becoming more and more prevalent.

For instance running 10 seconds flat in the 100 metres can be done clean. The same with running say 20.1 seconds in the 200 metres. You can have a decent career with those times being your PB.

Noah is really standing up for the integrity of sport. He is a man of guts and courage. I think the fact that his son is a professional sportsman has probably forced his hand.

It's disgusting reading the enablers on this forum, who don't want any discussion of doping since it may taint the players they hero worship. I wonder how they would react if a family member is forced to give a career in tennis due to the dopers. Tennis is not that bad yet, but give it time.

Noah is right. To catch the cheats you do need around 60 drugs test a year. However, the majority have to be out of competition. Right now top players on average are lucky to see 2 OOC test a year. This is a joke.

cc0509
10-18-2012, 04:13 PM
That's an excellent question.:)

I'm still losing interest in tennis as we speak (too many grinders, surfaces too slow), though but it's a slow process.

If it turned out that tennis players were dopers, first and foremost I'd hope that they were cleaned out, never allowed to play a single match again and new strickt rules were introduced.

That will never happen, not in a million years.

roberttennis54
10-18-2012, 04:16 PM
That will never happen, not in a million years.

No, but they can make the sport cleaner. In a skill sport like tennis is not too hard to do. If people start speaking loudly about the problem then something will have to be done. I think people are prepared to give sportsmen the benefit of the doubt, but too many sportsmen have stretched what is credible.

Ben Johnson was not the only doper that day, but he was the one that took it to such extremes, people could not accept it. This is happening today.

Agassifan
10-18-2012, 04:18 PM
The chances of some Top 50 player doping are quite high. As for the top 4 ...

Clarky21
10-18-2012, 04:19 PM
You don't need to dope to succeed at the top level at sport, but doping is becoming more and more prevalent.

For instance running 10 seconds flat in the 100 metres can be done clean. The same with running say 20.1 seconds in the 200 metres. You can have a decent career with those times being your PB.

Noah is really standing up for the integrity of sport. He is a man of guts and courage. I think the fact that his son is a professional sportsman has probably forced his hand.

It's disgusting reading the enablers on this forum, who don't want any discussion of doping since it may taint the players they hero worship. I wonder how they would react if a family member is forced to give a career in tennis due to the dopers. Tennis is not that bad yet, but give it time.

Noah is right. To catch the cheats you do need around 60 drugs test a year. However, the majority have to be out of competition. Right now top players on average are lucky to see 2 OOC test a year. This is a joke.


It's much worse than that. IIRC,Venus and Serena Williams had not had an OOC test in 2 years up until this year. These players are lucky to receive any OOC tests at all. It's like they designed the testing to fail. They'll never catch anyone with testing this pathetic.

cc0509
10-18-2012, 04:21 PM
No, but they can make the sport cleaner. In a skill sport like tennis is not too hard to do. If people start speaking loudly about the problem then something will have to be done. I think people are prepared to give sportsmen the benefit of the doubt, but too many sportsmen have stretched what is credible.

Ben Johnson was not the only doper that day, but he was the one that took it to such extremes, people could not accept it. This is happening today.

They may be able to make it "cleaner" as you say, but as long as there is big money in competitive pro sprots it will never be entirely clean, never. It is impossible to eradicate doping fully.

cc0509
10-18-2012, 04:23 PM
It's much worse than that. IIRC,Venus and Serena Williams had not had an OOC test in 2 years up until this year. These players are lucky to receive any OOC tests at all. It's like they designed the testing to fail. They'll never catch anyone with testing this pathetic.

They don't want to catch them.

Clarky21
10-18-2012, 04:27 PM
They don't want to catch them.



I know. And if they even did they would just cover it up and we would never know about it. It's just corruption at it's finest.

roberttennis54
10-18-2012, 04:28 PM
They may be able to make it "cleaner" as you say, but as long as there is big money in competitive pro sprots it will never be entirely clean, never. It is impossible to eradicate doping fully.

It's impossible to eradicate murder, theft, fraud and every other crime under the sun. This does not mean we should stop trying to eradicate them. Once you give up then you open up the flood gates and to even be in the top 1000 will require doping.

cc0509
10-18-2012, 04:31 PM
It's impossible to eradicate murder, theft, fraud and every other crime under the sun. This does not mean we should stop trying to eradicate them. Once you give up then you open up the flood gates and to even be in the top 1000 will require doping.

True..........

Bartelby
10-18-2012, 04:35 PM
If you only spend 1.6 million on enforcement it probably means you'd rather not catch anyone, so we'll never know about doping in tennis until a well financed independent body does the testing.

kishnabe
10-18-2012, 04:37 PM
Yeah serve fests are SO captivating :roll: If you really want tennis to nosedive in the ratings, speed up the courts to the max. Good idea :???: Then R.I.P. tennis as a source of entertainment. :mad:
The only way to go is medium paced for most events (players can use all their weapons: offense and defense) + keep some extreme slow and fast to spice things up and for some good old fashioned contrast.
About doping issues, chances are they all do stuff to improve their perfs, endurance, speed and so on. Pro sport and idealism tend to not mix well especially when a huge amount of money is at stake. For the most naive among us: welcome to the dark side of human nature.

First Half of the Season should be slow enduring tennis. The latter half fast to super fast.

Aussie Courts stay the same. French Open should be slowed down. Wimbledon sped up a little. US sped up a lot.

cc0509
10-18-2012, 04:41 PM
I know. And if they even did they would just cover it up and we would never know about it. It's just corruption at it's finest.

Yep, if they really wanted to catch them and make it public they could. The fact that no "big" tennis player has been "caught" and publicly punished for using PED's (yes I know Hingis and Gasquet were caught but that was not for using a PED it was a recreational drug), says it all. Do people really think no top tennis player in the past 40 years has used a PED and been caught and possibly sanctioned in some way (not publicly?) What they do is throw out a lower ranked player every now and again for failing a drug test so that the public gains a false sense of security that the testing in tennis is working. It is all one big facade.

Bowtiesarecool
10-18-2012, 05:02 PM
Having 3 different surfaces play the same speed is boring imo but whatever, they still bounce different... for now.

Baseline push/counterpunch/40 shot rally matches are boring.

Doping... couldn't care less. With the way things are going in modern tennis, the idea of musclebound giants bumbling around the court may be the only prospect of entertainment left.

Eqality in prizemoney... Sure. Only if the prizemoney is reduced to a tournament winner raking in checks for $200,000. Sports figures earn more than enough thruogh sponsorships. There's no reason for 2-4million dollar payouts.

librarysteg
10-18-2012, 05:14 PM
If it's so widespread I'm surprised no current clean players are tattling. I suppose without proof it would be slander but if it's so widespread you'd think it wouldn't be too hard to gather some evidence and cause a big stink of you wanted to.

1972murat
10-18-2012, 05:28 PM
Here is my solution: Every sport should have a "juiced" version of it. NBA should have JNBA. ATP should have JATP. Of course whoever wants to take part in the J league of their sport has to sign a waiver saying "I die, my fault". So,whoever wants to see the human limits enhanced by chemicals can freely participate in the J league of their sport.Trust me, I would pay good money to see a JNFL game where bunch of 300 pound guys running at each other , frothing at the mouth going" I will eat your children!"
At the end of each season, the winner of the Juiced league and the regular leagues play the grand finale to determine who is the ultimate champion of the year...A fence would be appropriate between the J and the regular fans, just in case...
Who is with me?

BorisBeckerFan
10-18-2012, 05:33 PM
I have no inside knowledge or claim to have the facts but why would tennis not be affected by this when almost every other major sport is? It would seem pretty naive to think tennis was somehow exempt from issues that plague just about other sport where money is involved. I am not making any accusations but it would not shock me one bit if Federer, Sampras, Agassi, Nadal, Novak, etc are or where on some PEDs. Nadal and Novak seem to have unending energy and Fed and Pete both stayed relatively injury free for so much of their career. Agassi still playing as old as he was? I mean these are very elite level atheletes and I respect them very much but again, if the news where to come out, don't be surprised.

Paullaconte1
10-18-2012, 05:47 PM
Even more impressive was to read that Tipsarevic is training in Africa.

Yes, but we need to be careful not to confuse fit players with the doped ones.

Sometimes people like to link the two. I mean if somebody is fit it doesn't necessarily mean he is doped.

They talk about Errani. She is not really gifted, but she has an immense drive. She broke into top 10? Why blame her?

Same for Nadal. He is obsessed with fitness, but this does not mean he is doped.
Same for Djokovic. After he found that he was allergic to gluten he peaked... and there were rumours he was doped.

Sometimes it seems that being strong + fit + focused = being doped

It was true for Armstrong... but why it has to be true for other athletes?

BrooklynNY
10-18-2012, 06:02 PM
They talk about Errani. She is not really gifted, but she has an immense drive. She broke into top 10? Why blame her?



Ok...Let's just think about this...
Sara Errani makes the French Open final.
Sara Errani needs a cardiac exam, as her and her brother said during the US Open. There are Millions of doctors in the world, and an unbelievable about of Heart Specialists in many countries, which she would have access to, since tennis players travel all the time.

Her name(and others including Ferrer, Safina, and Andreev) was specifically linked to Dr. Luis Garcia Del Moral in, 1 of the 5 or so key players in the Lance Armstrong PED case.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/11/sports/cycling/agency-details-doping-case-against-lance-armstrong.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
“[Dr. del Moral] would run into the room and u would quickly find a needle in your arm.” - Cyclist Vande Velde.

"In his affidavit, Vande Velde recalled Bruyneel took over as the team director after the 1998 season and brought in the new team doctor, Luis Garcia del Moral, who was fond of giving riders injections.
"
If you have read the Affadavits released in the case, some of which are quoted above, but you can read them in full if you take the time.... you can gain some insight into the character of Dr del Moral, and how you don't really go see him for you yearly physical and checkups, if you know what I mean.

Now I'm not saying Ferrer and Errani or anyone else named are using Dr. Luis Del Moral to obtain and use PEDs, They are great players who have talent and work hard, more than we would even know, and I'm sure Dr. Del Moral can tell you if you have bronchitis, have high cholesterol, or have the flu- I'm just saying once should consider all of these factors, and just think about it.

Bartelby
10-18-2012, 06:35 PM
The Errani case is way different from that of the Spanish players, so don't confuse the issue.

Bartelby
10-18-2012, 06:37 PM
Being linked to a tennis academy that the 'good doctor' frequented does not create the more direct link that exists in the Errani case.

sonicare
10-20-2012, 09:52 AM
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=443529

15_ounce
10-21-2012, 01:12 AM
Yeah it's impressive doping controls made it to Kenya... considering there is a huge doping investigation going on in Kenya
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/9572277/Kenyans-athletes-under-scrutiny-in-doping-inquiry.html

Maybe Janko should reconsider Kenya, maybe for a place like Jamaica ;)


Wow, why Kenya I wonder. It sounds a bit suspicious.

I can understand Youzhny trains in Pattaya, because it is full of Russians there and he has one pro court specially built for him in Royal Cliff resort and have the Russian tennis kids sent to Siam Bayshore tennis courts.

joeri888
10-21-2012, 01:20 AM
That's so stupid. What -- according to whom, you? Is the ATP consulting you?

:roll:

It is and always has been both, and moreover has always been classified as an *endurance* sport.

According to me of course. I'm on this board to voice my opinion. Of course it is according to me, and it's just an opinion. I don't want karlovic-Isner all the time, but the 90's weren't Karlovic Isner all the time either. I just think that the way it is now, you don't have to wait long before top 10 guys are all doping up. Tennis has not got a doping culture yet, but it soon will have it, if people start feeling they can't compete with the best physically without doping.