PDA

View Full Version : Is Blake accusing Nadal, Djokovic and/or Federer of doping?


Paullaconte1
10-23-2012, 01:56 AM
After Armstrong's case, Noah immediately had his comments, but you know .. he is always going for the sensation.

Blake is a calm person and he had strange comments about doping citing winning the US Open and the prize money involved.

http://newyork.tennistonic.com/view_tennisnews?nid=1347&/Blakes-is-also-suspicious-about-doping-in-tennis

http://www.thenational.ae/sport/tennis/after-cycling-and-armstrong-tennis-could-hold-centre-court

Frankly speaking... I have found it quite strange.

Bartelby
10-23-2012, 02:04 AM
A lot of money attracts a lot of bad behaviour - a cliche, in other words.

joeri888
10-23-2012, 02:12 AM
Not necessarily one of them. It's just like he says. When you hype up sports. When Usain Bolt is a God, Federer makes 500 million, Gebressalasi can run for president, and Mo Farrah is a natural hero for the next 100 years, you know there's just too much at stake to think about 'fair play' all the time.

RAFA2005RG
10-23-2012, 02:58 AM
Obviously a lot of people are gunning for federer, the guy's year-long stamina is unprecedented. At age 30 he lasts the year better than a 25-year-old ever did. But I truly hope federer is never stripped of his 7 wimbledons, because I would hate to think Rafa was robbed of 2 wimbledons (2006, 2007), although I've never really valued wimbledon as much as Roland Garros so not the end of the world.

joeri888
10-23-2012, 03:22 AM
Obviously a lot of people are gunning for federer, the guy's year-long stamina is unprecedented. At age 30 he lasts the year better than a 25-year-old ever did. But I truly hope federer is never stripped of his 7 wimbledons, because I would hate to think Rafa was robbed of 2 wimbledons (2006, 2007), although I've never really valued wimbledon as much as Roland Garros so not the end of the world.

You really only hate for Federer to be using dope because of Nadal? Little world you live in.

Anyways, you consider Federer a better athlete than Djokovic and Nadal than? Which doping would help hold up knees and your back, and an abdominal tear etc. by the way? Do they show that Nadal's problems wouldn't be there if he was doping?

Tafmatch
10-23-2012, 03:36 AM
But I truly hope federer is never stripped of his 7 wimbledons, because I would hate to think Rafa was robbed of 2 wimbledons (2006, 2007),

No stopping this guy :)

RAFA2005RG
10-23-2012, 05:16 AM
You really only hate for Federer to be using dope because of Nadal? Little world you live in.

Anyways, you consider Federer a better athlete than Djokovic and Nadal than? Which doping would help hold up knees and your back, and an abdominal tear etc. by the way? Do they show that Nadal's problems wouldn't be there if he was doping?

Federer is twice as good as Nadal physically. Federer is like an alien, finishing the season fresher than anyone, despite winning most of his points from the baseline and playing more matches than most players who are several years younger than him. While Nadal struggles to last the clay and grass seasons - Nadal said he played with anti-inflammatories on course to winning his record seventh title at Roland Garros in May, and that he took pain-killing injections at Wimbledon http://sports.ndtv.com/tennis/news/item/198097-nadal-confirmed-for-mexican-open-in-february ).

LOL well you just proved Nadal doesn't dope, as he's constantly withdrawing with knee problems. Doping would work, no? And Nadal doesn't get back problems (that's Federer, Djokovic and Murray). Oh and the abdominal tear? What is your question regarding that? Look at Nadal's service speeds in the 2009 US Open, they were around 97mph 1st serves! The guy was dying.

joeri888
10-23-2012, 05:23 AM
Federer is twice as good as Nadal physically. Federer is like an alien, finishing the season fresher than anyone, despite winning most of his points from the baseline and playing more matches than most players who are several years younger than him. While Nadal struggles to last the clay and grass seasons - Nadal said he played with anti-inflammatories on course to winning his record seventh title at Roland Garros in May, and that he took pain-killing injections at Wimbledon http://sports.ndtv.com/tennis/news/item/198097-nadal-confirmed-for-mexican-open-in-february ).

LOL well you just proved Nadal doesn't dope, as he's constantly withdrawing with knee problems. Doping would work, no? And Nadal doesn't get back problems (that's Federer, Djokovic and Murray). Oh and the abdominal tear? What is your question regarding that? Look at Nadal's service speeds in the 2009 US Open, they were around 97mph 1st serves! The guy was dying.

I am just suggesting that Nadal's injury concerns are hardly doping related. Why would doping help his knee problems? I really don't see it.

Tafmatch
10-23-2012, 05:26 AM
Cmon RAFA2005 you can do better.

Knee problems and doping lol. And have you seen Fed play lately? He's not exactly 'fresh'. Give it up.

RAFA2005RG
10-23-2012, 06:10 AM
Cmon RAFA2005 you can do better.

Knee problems and doping lol. And have you seen Fed play lately? He's not exactly 'fresh'. Give it up.

Oh yeah, that's right, Murray beats Federer in straight sets so automatically Federer is not fresh.....

Meanwhile watch Federer cruise through the remainder of the year while the other guys struggle and withdraw. Seen it all before. What did he win at the end of last year.....was it 3 straight titles?

90's Clay
10-23-2012, 06:41 AM
If people can say Nadal is doping, Federer is just as much likely of a serious candidate. (maybe even moreso then Nadal). Fed has never had any serious injuries.. Has he even missed a slam since 2003? He has the insane ability to physically recover even as an OLD tennis player that just seems very odd. He can continue to play dozens and dozens of matches for 10 years straights and never really have any major physical let-downs. That alone can make one shake their hand. How do you do that without the use of some "help?". Especially if you consider his age and how much more physical the game has gotten? Steroids help you recover fast, and get you back out there playing

All circumstantial, but its easy to point the finger at both Nadal and Federer.. Not to do so is kind of naive.

If Armstrong has been juicing for a gazillion years, I wouldn't put it by anyone

dudeski
10-23-2012, 06:41 AM
Obviously a lot of people are gunning for federer, the guy's year-long stamina is unprecedented. At age 30 he lasts the year better than a 25-year-old ever did. But I truly hope federer is never stripped of his 7 wimbledons, because I would hate to think Rafa was robbed of 2 wimbledons (2006, 2007), although I've never really valued wimbledon as much as Roland Garros so not the end of the world.

Your name is pretty ironic given that it is well know fact that Nadal started doping full time around April 2005. He realized he needs to do it in order to compete with Federer after Federer outlasted him in 2005 5 set Miami final.

diggler
10-23-2012, 06:55 AM
With so much money involved, it is not surprising if players are doping. (Let's not get into a debate about who because that is really childish).

If the authorities have evidence, is it really in their interests to flush out the drug cheats or is it better to sweep it under the carpet?

Nine positive drug tests at the 1984 Summer Olympics were allegedly covered up and documentation subsequently destroyed

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-08-23/sports/sp-30338_1_drug-testing

purple-n-gold
10-23-2012, 07:00 AM
tennis char

Bartelby
10-23-2012, 07:03 AM
The doping control budget is 1.6 million so they are going to catch no one.

BrooklynNY
10-23-2012, 07:14 AM
The doping control budget is 1.6 million so they are going to catch no one.

Essentially.

They are giving away that much in prize money at the US Open.

Win the US Open once, and your bankroll is essentially bigger than the doping control budget that is trying to catch 100+ people.

citybert
10-23-2012, 07:19 AM
Think Blake is really grasping at straws here if he is implying that and has no proof.(not saying rafa or roger are or are not)

But one thing that is more likely is that Blake did not dope at all even during his run to the top 5 that year. He even refuses anti-inflammatories. He is adamant about this because of his father's bout with stomach cancer and stays off even an advil here and there.

cknobman
10-23-2012, 07:20 AM
Federer is twice as good as Nadal physically. Federer is like an alien, finishing the season fresher than anyone, despite winning most of his points from the baseline and playing more matches than most players who are several years younger than him. While Nadal struggles to last the clay and grass seasons - Nadal said he played with anti-inflammatories on course to winning his record seventh title at Roland Garros in May, and that he took pain-killing injections at Wimbledon http://sports.ndtv.com/tennis/news/item/198097-nadal-confirmed-for-mexican-open-in-february ).

LOL well you just proved Nadal doesn't dope, as he's constantly withdrawing with knee problems. Doping would work, no? And Nadal doesn't get back problems (that's Federer, Djokovic and Murray). Oh and the abdominal tear? What is your question regarding that? Look at Nadal's service speeds in the 2009 US Open, they were around 97mph 1st serves! The guy was dying.

Do you ever actually watch tennis matches???

If you did I dont think you would be questioning Federers physical fitness vs Nadals. Federer does not make a habit of playing every match as if it were a brutal marathon running around for hours on end. In fact I have gotten quite upset at Fed in some of his matches because of his unwillingness to grind it out. For the most part Fed is on or off and when he turns off he can go out rather quickly.

RF20Lennon
10-23-2012, 07:52 AM
Innocent before proven guilty people. I used to think nadal was doping in the Aussie 2009 playing those back to back matches but I doubt either of the two are. Fed is a very smart scheduler and Paganini is doing a great job

pvaudio
10-23-2012, 08:33 AM
If people can say Nadal is doping, Federer is just as much likely of a serious candidate. (maybe even moreso then Nadal). Fed has never had any serious injuries.. Has he even missed a slam since 2003? He has the insane ability to physically recover even as an OLD tennis player that just seems very odd. He can continue to play dozens and dozens of matches for 10 years straights and never really have any major physical let-downs. That alone can make one shake their hand. How do you do that without the use of some "help?". Especially if you consider his age and how much more physical the game has gotten? Steroids help you recover fast, and get you back out there playing

All circumstantial, but its easy to point the finger at both Nadal and Federer.. Not to do so is kind of naive.

If Armstrong has been juicing for a gazillion years, I wouldn't put it by anyone
The Federer allegations are absurd. If you watch clips from him in 2005-2006 and him now, there are two completely different players. The former player was so aggressive that he'd simply blow people off the court. His serve wasn't that great and hit shot selection didn't need to be because he could create angles not known to mathematics. The Federer today is much, MUCH slower, but still moves around the court better than just about anyone because he relies less on footspeed and more on anticipation. He chooses each shot purposefully, uses a slice MUCH more often to construct points, puts in droppers, and these days if he's not serving well, he won't win. If he is serving well, not even Djoker beats him. Federer doesn't destroy his body because he does not run it into the ground like everyone else...because he doesn't need to. He's just far smarter than the field. PEDs do not improve your intelligence.

BrooklynNY
10-23-2012, 08:59 AM
Yeah, but PEDs improve your ability to recover, which is useful for a tennis player, no matter who you are, and what style of play you choose to showcase.

No one is above suspicion.

Steve0904
10-23-2012, 09:08 AM
All these allegations to all the players (especially the top 4) by everybody on these boards is absurd. As RF20Lennon said, it's innocent until proven guilty. Period.

NadalAgassi
10-23-2012, 09:09 AM
If people can say Nadal is doping, Federer is just as much likely of a serious candidate. (maybe even moreso then Nadal). Fed has never had any serious injuries.. Has he even missed a slam since 2003? He has the insane ability to physically recover even as an OLD tennis player that just seems very odd. He can continue to play dozens and dozens of matches for 10 years straights and never really have any major physical let-downs. That alone can make one shake their hand. How do you do that without the use of some "help?". Especially if you consider his age and how much more physical the game has gotten? Steroids help you recover fast, and get you back out there playing

All circumstantial, but its easy to point the finger at both Nadal and Federer.. Not to do so is kind of naive.

If Armstrong has been juicing for a gazillion years, I wouldn't put it by anyone

They probably both dope. Most elite athletes today do.

ivan_the_terrible
10-23-2012, 09:15 AM
They probably both dope. Most elite athletes today do.

Saying that is a cop out - the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that Nadal dopes. By your statement, you're trying to convince yourself that it's ok by inferring that Fed also dopes.

dimeaxe
10-23-2012, 09:19 AM
The thing about Federer is, that he has the best doctor in the team, who worked with him since 02/03.I don't know the guy's name, but I know that he previously worked as an official ATP doctor, after which he was hired by Federer.
I'm not insulting anyone, but I'm sure that this guy knows best how to recover Roger after grueling matches, and I'm sure that he knows how to cover illegal substances and other things.So I'm not accusing Roger, but I'm sure that he's not 100% clean as many people want him to be, no one is, Rafa, Novak, they're all using something.

zagor
10-23-2012, 09:20 AM
Saying that is a cop out - the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that Nadal dopes. By your statement, you're trying to convince yourself that it's ok by inferring that Fed also dopes.

No, it's obvious he's just being realistic about the state of today's professional sports (not just tennis).

ivan_the_terrible
10-23-2012, 09:25 AM
No, it's obvious he's just being realistic about the state of today's professional sports (not just tennis).

I disagree, their games are polar opposites. Nadal's is based on sheer strength and endurance - I call him a Ferrer 2.0 (another doper confirmed due to association with Dr Del Moral).

NadalAgassi
10-23-2012, 09:25 AM
Saying that is a cop out - the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that Nadal dopes. By your statement, you're trying to convince yourself that it's ok by inferring that Fed also dopes.

No idiot, you can look up my posts under doping or dope and I have said that over a hundred times when talking about various other sports. I am very consistent with that viewpoint. I beileve virtually all elite athletes these days and for years dope. Only naive fools have ever believed otherwise.

Macro80
10-23-2012, 09:27 AM
I just farted.

octogon
10-23-2012, 09:49 AM
Yeah, people always pointed the finger at Nadal because he had a much more muscular physique than Fed (particularly when he was younger. Nadal slimmed down considerable as he aged), but it was always a silly way to look at it. Most dopers are not musclebound types. They simply take the type of PED's that aid recovery.

I agree with the belief that almost all high level competitive, physical sport has PED issues, and tennis is no different. Fed is just as suspect as Nadal, and it would come as no shock if all the top 4 were exposed at some later date. Djokovic was the worst though. He was so blatant about it. It was almost comical how most of the tennis world turned a blind eye to what was going on, and pretended that he'd suddenly become the new GOAT through a gluten free diet or whatever. The stakes are so high, and the rewards so great (and the chances of getting caught so low) that you can see why they'd do it. Djokovic wanted to be truly in the conversation with Nadal and Fed, and he took the best option avialable to him.

It's the exact same thing that happened in cycling. Everyone, from the Federations to the tennis journalists know what's going on, but they are all tacitly turning a blind eye to it, because everyone eats well off the success and attention the top players bring to the game. If some of these guys ever get exposed, everyone will pretend to be shocked and disgusted though. Bit of a joke really.

sureshs
10-23-2012, 09:51 AM
Somehow I don't see Blake as having any special information on this topic

PCXL-Fan
10-23-2012, 09:55 AM
Personally I wouldn't be suprised if Federer started an increased doping regime around late 2008.

On the other hand I wouldn't be suprised if Nadal however has been heavily doping since late in his junior career with his insane physique at a young age and insane stamina. Federer is no victim here, he's won 17 slams, but then constant defeats caused Federer to compete himself and start a doping regiment similar to Nadals.

Then Djokovic entered the fray in 2011.

Notice how all these top players have connections to weird "doctors".

Nadal with Eufemiano Fuentes, who also has connections with Armstrong.

Djokovic with Dr. Igor.

Federer with his parents connection with multinational phaermaecompany.

Problem is doping is an arms race, you must compete in the race or never even have a chance to finish within the top 6, you'll never be a top player like you deserve unless you are willing to do what all your competitors are doing.

ivan_the_terrible
10-23-2012, 09:57 AM
No idiot, you can look up my posts under doping or dope and I have said that over a hundred times when talking about various other sports. I am very consistent with that viewpoint. I beileve virtually all elite athletes these days and for years dope. Only naive fools have ever believed otherwise.

Personal attacks (your idiot comment) are quite immature. You haven't addressed my post at all. I shouldn't have to 'look up your posts" to validate your point.

BTW, since you're convinced that 'virtually all elite athletes' dope, does the mean that Fed is possibly not a doper?

On the other hand, if you're convinced that Nadal is doping, why choose him as part of your username here?

sureshs
10-23-2012, 09:59 AM
Personally I wouldn't be suprised if Federer started an increased doping regime around late 2008.

On the other hand I wouldn't be suprised if Nadal however has been heavily doping since late in his junior career with his insane physique at a young age and insane stamina. Federer is no victim here, he's won 17 slams, but then constant defeats caused Federer to compete himself and start a doping regiment similar to Nadals.

Then Djokovic entered the fray in 2011.

Notice how all these top players have connections to weird "doctors".

Nadal with Eufemiano Fuentes, who also has connections with Armstrong.

Djokovic with Dr. Igor.

Federer with his parents connection with multinational phaermaecompany.

Yeah the children of the tens of thousands of parents who are employed in the pharma industry are all doping.

ivan_the_terrible
10-23-2012, 10:02 AM
Personally I wouldn't be suprised if Federer started an increased doping regime around late 2008.

On the other hand I wouldn't be suprised if Nadal however has been heavily doping since late in his junior career with his insane physique at a young age and insane stamina. Federer is no victim here, he's won 17 slams, but then constant defeats caused Federer to compete himself and start a doping regiment similar to Nadals.

Then Djokovic entered the fray in 2011.

Notice how all these top players have connections to weird "doctors".

Nadal with Eufemiano Fuentes, who also has connections with Armstrong.

Djokovic with Dr. Igor.

Federer with his parents connection with multinational phaermaecompany.

Quite possible, I concur. Not sure about the pharma connection as that means what? Does Fed's dad dope him with secret drugs his company manufactures? There is no need for that at all - there are lots of doping doctors out there that get the best stuff surreptitiously.

sureshs
10-23-2012, 10:04 AM
I suspect several TT posters are doping but I have no proof

Dave M
10-23-2012, 10:16 AM
I suspect several TT posters are doping but I have no proof

I've suspected some are on something as they type though not necessarily anything enhancing.

We'd be stupid o think that the sport is clean,(sadly) there are so many athletes on "the tour" that there must be a fair few that haven't been caught.
Of course there have been scandals before, but there has often been an excuse or "explanation" as to why a product has appeared in a sample, then neatly glossed over. I would like to see all of the top 75 tested every week in and out of competition between now and say RG. (it's 6 months ish no other reason than that) Untill they discover and make an example of a top player there will always be rumours it's just human nature to wonder why someone is so much better than yourself!
In the great Nadal debate, I think there is a chance, no idea what mind you, i would of said he just works out a lot but he seems to indicate himself he doesn't which fails to stop people wondering. IT is interesting that we have he and Fed at the same time but 4 or 5 years apart giving a good look into the (more) traditional style of play and the run till you drop to show how quickly it'll wear you out though.

PCXL-Fan
10-23-2012, 10:22 AM
I suspect several TT posters are doping but I have no proof

I suspect a certain tt poster is a dope, but only have circumstantial evidence.

Quite possible, I concur. Not sure about the pharma connection as that means what? Does Fed's dad dope him with secret drugs his company manufactures? There is no need for that at all - there are lots of doping doctors out there that get the best stuff surreptitiously.

It does manufacturer epo, growthhormone, testosterone. I'm not saying a board of directors and the ceo huddle around a boardroom table and discuss how they will expedite a doping program, but by and chance his parents having a career in the in a company that manufacturers this stuff could open up alot of doors and underhand connections, in all likelyhood though Feds parents don't even know what might be going on, however it simply because of proximity possibly could give rise to certain connections.

Mustard
10-23-2012, 10:29 AM
I believe there should be a stickied thread for doping on these forums, because there's way too many individual threads on it.

Think Blake is really grasping at straws here if he is implying that and has no proof.(not saying rafa or roger are or are not).

Proof doesn't matter anymore, as the Lance Armstrong case has shown. Now people are presumed guilty just if they're suspected of doping. It's vigilantism at its finest.

This guilty until proven innocent attitude and retrospective stripping of results, is a cancer that will kill professional sport if it continues.

Innocent before proven guilty people.

Not in Lance Armstrong's case. His refusal to enter into plea bargains and spend millions of dollars on lawyers is presumed to be Armstrong admitting guilt.

nyc
10-23-2012, 10:32 AM
I think anyone on these boards with a higher than 7 posts per Day average is using PEDs.

How else could they maintain that high average? My fingers would fall OFF.

PCXL-Fan
10-23-2012, 10:39 AM
Proof doesn't matter anymore, as the Lance Armstrong case has shown. Now people are presumed guilty just if they're suspected of doping. It's vigilantism at its finest.

This guilty until proven innocent attitude and retrospective stripping of results, is a cancer that will kill professional sport if it continues.

Not in Lance Armstrong's case. His refusal to enter into plea bargains and spend millions of dollars on lawyers is presumed to be Armstrong admitting guilt.

Mustard, another guy came out just TODAY from Armstrongs race team to admit to doping.

12 members of Armstrongs team now admit to doping.

http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20121023&t=2&i=666385017&w=&fh=&fw=&ll=700&pl=300&r=CBRE89M0YI400
Former Lance Armstrong Teammate Kjaergaard Admits to Using Drugs

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/23/us-cycling-armstrong-kjaergaard-idUSBRE89M0KV20121023

corners
10-23-2012, 10:58 AM
Proof doesn't matter anymore, as the Lance Armstrong case has shown. Now people are presumed guilty just if they're suspected of doping. It's vigilantism at its finest.

This guilty until proven innocent attitude and retrospective stripping of results, is a cancer that will kill professional sport if it continues.

Have you read the USADA report? I'ts utterly damning. Armstrong is guilty as sin; anyone who reads even a portion of the report can see that, plain as day.

Do you also object to the stripping of Marion Jones' medals? Just like Lance, she also employed doctors that were too good at doping and hiding doping to get caught red-handed with a positive test. Just like Lance she swore up and down that she never used drugs and that she had never tested positive. But in the end she was stripped of her medals in the same way that Lance was finally caught. These are criminal conspiracies and at this point they can only be broken up through investigative reporting, detective work, eyewitness testimony (Conte and Hunter in Jones' case, half the USPS team in Armstrong's case) - law enforcement, basically.

Your argument seems to be that only positive tests count. But the whole point is that the cheaters are too good at avoiding the tests. Ultimately, by continuing to support cheaters who have been caught after the fact by good law enforcement work you are saying that it's OK to dope as long as you don't get caught. Which is the same thing that dopers tell themselves.

NadalAgassi
10-23-2012, 11:04 AM
I do object to stripping medals of people who werent caught with a positive drug test, since as virtually all their competitors were doping as well, they beat them doing what everyone else was doing (be that Marion Jones, Lance, etc...) and part of the game is not getting caught, and most are successful at it, and obviously they were as it took a witchhunt which their competitors were not subjected to in order to take them down.

The only people I laugh at are the ones naive are stupid enough to believe that the vast majority of World class athletes are clean, ROTFL!!!

Rozroz
10-23-2012, 11:05 AM
LOL Armstrong himself took down his own titles on Facebook, no?

Mustard
10-23-2012, 11:05 AM
Marion Jones admitted doping and lying under oath, the latter of which saw her jailed. Why do people keep comparing her case to Armstrong's? My argument, corners, is that the evidence against Armstrong was as a result of plea bargains and people with axes to grind. People don't seem to realise that this evidence is compromised by plea bargaining, i.e. blackmail.

JoelDali
10-23-2012, 11:09 AM
is Bud Collins doping?

I think so.

NadalAgassi
10-23-2012, 11:10 AM
Marion didnt fail a drug test though, just like Lance. It took a witchhunt to take her down, just as it did him, things others were not subjected to. The fact she chose to be honest and Lance didnt (a mistake on his part as reportedly they were only going to strip him of 2 of his 7 titles rather than all 7 had he admited to doping, due t the statue of limitations rule of 8 years which he would have been protected by) is not exactly something in his favor. Note I do agree both were treated unfairly as what both have in common is they never failed a drugs test, and as it is clear virtually all their competitors like them doped, especialy in sports like cycling and sprinting (even if there are some doubters on tennis, there should be no doubters whatsoever on those two sports) and for all others successfully evading the drug tests is enough, it should be enough for them. They were made scapegoats and made an example of, which was unfair to both of them.

Mila
10-23-2012, 11:15 AM
I think anyone on these boards with a higher than 7 posts per Day average is using PEDs.

How else could they maintain that high average? My fingers would fall OFF.

good one :D

Mustard
10-23-2012, 11:28 AM
The fact she chose to be honest and Lance didnt (a mistake on his part as reportedly they were only going to strip him of 2 of his 7 titles rather than all 7 had he admited to doping, due t the statue of limitations rule of 8 years which he would have been protected by) is not exactly something in his favor.

Thanks for confirming the plea bargaining that goes on. The USADA basically went to Armstrong and said "go public and admit to doping, and we'll strip you of 2 Tour de France titles". Armstrong refused as he had never tested positive for a banned substance under the rules of cycling. This was blackmail by the USADA and per-verting the course of justice.

Plea bargaining should be banned, period.

jokinla
10-23-2012, 11:28 AM
It doesn't seem like he's implying those top guys specifically, perhaps others down the ladder that need a boost, to possibly win that elusive prize, that has grown so large that some will risk everything to obtain it.

TheCheese
10-23-2012, 12:03 PM
I really doubt Nadal or Federer are doping. If anyone, it's Djokovic. Nothing against him, but he's got an absurd amount of pressure to do well for his country.

dimeaxe
10-23-2012, 12:09 PM
Wrong,Federer would be first, he has ex ATP doctor in the team, and Djokovic doesn't have Switzerland or USA behind to protect him, he would be first one to catch.

*Sparkle*
10-23-2012, 12:19 PM
So basically, the assumption that they are "all at it" stems from the fact that it is possible to get away with it, and no professional athlete could possibly resist the temptation.

Just because a lot of them could do it, doesn't mean they all want to do it. There are some situations that raise an eyebrow, but it's reaching the stage that the mere fact of winning, or being relatively fit, or having family working in one of your own country's major industries, is treated as proof that they must be at it.

I fully expect there will be some players who are happy to win with the help of doping, but I also think there will be quite a few who won't see the point in winning if it's not done fairly. There will be added pressure on those who are struggling to make a reasonable living at their natural level, and a few who want to win at any costs, but there is no logic in presuming that they are all prepared to do so.

I see similar debates when a celebrity is outed as avoiding paying tax. There are loads of people who defend them claiming everyone would do it if they could, but that's simply not true. Some people have values that are worth more than the money. The ability to get away with something doesn't mean you will try to do so.

Cycling is a different sport, with different pressures. It's much harder to stick to your convictions in a team environment where you can see everyone else is doing it, especially when threatened with being chucked off the team. Tennis players only have themselves to answer to, so it's not that hard to believe that one of them could be happier being a clean #35 than they would be if they were a doped #20.

Unfortunately, all this talk of doping is only going to make more up-coming players believe they need to be doing it. Averagely talented guys who don't work quite hard enough and have stalled in the rankings are not going to be motivated to work harder, or simply accept their limitations.

Assumptions of the prevalence of doping is an easy excuse for those who aren't doing as well as hoped, and also a very good advertising ploy by those who are selling the stuff. If people aren't careful, all this tin-foil hat paranoia is going to make the problem worse, not better.

I favour more effort and money spent on testing, but assuming everyone is guilty unless proven innocent is actually counter-productive.

Clarky21
10-23-2012, 12:20 PM
Wrong,Federer would be first, he has ex ATP doctor in the team, and Djokovic doesn't have Switzerland or USA behind to protect him, he would be first one to catch.



Then why wasn't he caught last year when he started his miracle run of incredible stamina after being a physical weakling his entire career up until then? I think they are all probably taking peds,but never has there been a case as obvious as *******'s. He's probably the biggest doper on the tour right now.

veroniquem
10-23-2012, 12:27 PM
The thing about Federer is, that he has the best doctor in the team, who worked with him since 02/03.I don't know the guy's name, but I know that he previously worked as an official ATP doctor, after which he was hired by Federer.
I'm not insulting anyone, but I'm sure that this guy knows best how to recover Roger after grueling matches, and I'm sure that he knows how to cover illegal substances and other things.So I'm not accusing Roger, but I'm sure that he's not 100% clean as many people want him to be, no one is, Rafa, Novak, they're all using something.

No idiot, you can look up my posts under doping or dope and I have said that over a hundred times when talking about various other sports. I am very consistent with that viewpoint. I beileve virtually all elite athletes these days and for years dope. Only naive fools have ever believed otherwise.

Very likely. That's the sad reality of pro sport in general. The public is easy to string along partly because they want to be. Everybody needs heroes to worship and look up to. So, we're all a part of it in a way. We want that superhuman champ and we want to believe it's all talent. Nobody wants to face the truth of what one has to do to oneself to feed that dream. (the guys at the top are still extremely talented btw, doping is no substitute for talent)
ETA: clarky: none of the big stars will EVER get caught.That much is crystal clear (pun intended :twisted:) The ATP has no interest in shooting itself in the foot. They go after some guy once in a while, guys who do not matter much like Canas. The top stars are untouchable without damaging the sport credibility in general and why would they do that? It's obvious they never will if they can help it. Plus the big stars have the infrastructure to know what they're doing and pass any existing test with flying colors. Research in doping is consistently one step ahead of existing control methods. There is much more money to be made in developing more sophisticated, undetectable perf enhancers than in improving the detection system.

dimeaxe
10-23-2012, 12:38 PM
Then why wasn't he caught last year when he started his miracle run of incredible stamina after being a physical weakling his entire career up until then? I think they are all probably taking peds,but never has there been a case as obvious as *******'s. He's probably the biggest doper on the tour right now.

And tell me, how would you describe fact that he doesn't have breathing issues like before.Just look his matches in '10, he would gasping for air after long rally every time.He's on this gluten free diet for two years now, I think, and his organism is cleaned up, you should ask someone who had similar problems, what's going to happen if you continue with same food regime.If you hate or doesn't like him, that's your problem, but if he use something like PEDs, he's not only one.

librarysteg
10-23-2012, 12:44 PM
Isn't it libel to come right and say "I think X is a doper?" It's one thing to speculate about how prevalent or not the issue is in the sport, but it doesn't seem right to make claims against individual people. There must be some stories out there of people posting on boards like this getting into some hot water.

octogon
10-23-2012, 12:48 PM
I do think if there is ever going to be a "sacrificial lamb" (who gets the Armstrong treatment) among the top players, it'll be Djokovic.

There's way too much invested in the Federer/Nadal "legend" that has driven the sport to such amazing highs (and financial rewards), which is why I think both would be strongly protected by the tennis authorities and tennis media if things started to surface. It'd take a sort of thorough investigation (like the USADA one that took over a decade to bring down Armstrong), to take down Fed or Nadal, and I'm not sure anyone will invest that that much effort.

Murray is too important for the game as well. Britain is such an important country for tennis, in terms of media and money, that having a British star right at the top of the game capable of winning slams, is just too much of a good thing to spoil.

Djokovic doesn't have the legend status or fanbase of Fed/Nadal, and he's not from an important country like Murray. If one of the top guys ever gets thrown to the wolves for PED usage, I'd put money on it being him.

veroniquem
10-23-2012, 12:52 PM
Isn't it libel to come right and say "I think X is a doper?" It's one thing to speculate about how prevalent or not the issue is in the sport, but it doesn't seem right to make claims against individual people. .

That I agree with 100%. Look at Noah, he sounds like he is on a xenophobic, personal vendetta. Totally pathetic. If one truly suspects that doping is endemic, pointing fingers at x or y makes no sense at all except in a context of bearing a grudge and seeking revenge.

Clarky21
10-23-2012, 01:01 PM
And tell me, how would you describe fact that he doesn't have breathing issues like before.Just look his matches in '10, he would gasping for air after long rally every time.He's on this gluten free diet for two years now, I think, and his organism is cleaned up, you should ask someone who had similar problems, what's going to happen if you continue with same food regime.If you hate or doesn't like him, that's your problem, but if he use something like PEDs, he's not only one.



People really buy this story? It's a red herring,just like him sitting in that egg contraption was. It's not what's really going on,and I cannot believe people would think that stopping gluten would turn someone who spent his entire career as a weakling,into a tireless beast. The gluten free thing is total bollocks.

dimeaxe
10-23-2012, 01:03 PM
People really buy this story? It's a red herring,just like him sitting in that egg contraption was. It's not what's really going on,and I cannot believe people would think that stopping gluten would turn someone who spent his entire career as a weakling,into a tireless beast. The gluten free thing is total bollocks.

And how would you explain Federer playing with Mono, huh???:)Now, at least we know where are you from.

Clarky21
10-23-2012, 01:05 PM
Isn't it libel to come right and say "I think X is a doper?" It's one thing to speculate about how prevalent or not the issue is in the sport, but it doesn't seem right to make claims against individual people. There must be some stories out there of people posting on boards like this getting into some hot water.



Then these people are going to be dragging millions of people into court,and spending a ton of time and money to clear their name. The thing is,they will never do that because they would have to prove they're not doping,and since most of them are it would be suicidal to open a can of worms this large. Too much information would come out or be exposed and there is no way any of them would want to be involved in it.

Clarky21
10-23-2012, 01:10 PM
And how would you explain Federer playing with Mono, huh???:)Now at least we know where are you from.



Fed had a MILD case of mono,and never went from zero to a hundred physically like ******* did. I don't even know what his mono has to do with anything considering it slowed him down physically,and didn't help him. What are you getting at here?

And please show me where Fed was a tired,weakling for 75% of his career only to turn it all around overnight and become a beast physically? What ******* did last year and continues to do goes against what he was able to do for his entire career beforehand. His dramatic physical change happened in 1 month's time at the end of 2010. Did Fed ever in his whole career do anything like that?

veroniquem
10-23-2012, 01:12 PM
Allegations that 1 of the top guys is doping but not the others are simply not credible. Those players can stay toe to toe with one another event after event, match after match. So either they all get "help" or none of them do. Because if one of them didn't follow more or less the same regimen, no way on earth could he keep up with the "enhanced" ones on a regular basis. He would simply not stay at the top and would become one of the numerous "good but not that good" bundle of players.

librarysteg
10-23-2012, 01:12 PM
Then these people are going to dragging millions of people into court,and spending a ton of time and money to clear their name. The thing is,they will never do that because they would have to prove they're not doping,and since most of them are it would be suicidal to open a can of worms this large. Too much information would come out or be exposed and there is no way any of them would want to be involved in it.

I'm sure you're right, but someone's camp, especially if they're clean, could decide to make an example of a few like the whole Napster stuff a few years ago. I'd be shocked if anything like that ever happened, but I'd still never feel confident enough to post anything saying I'm positive so and so is doping.

I really do have a bad feeling something is about to break in tennis. I just don't want to see any one player be made a scapegoat if it's true that the problem is widespread. I'd rather see them clean house if they feel it's time something needs to be done.

dominikk1985
10-23-2012, 01:13 PM
Obviously a lot of people are gunning for federer, the guy's year-long stamina is unprecedented. At age 30 he lasts the year better than a 25-year-old ever did. But I truly hope federer is never stripped of his 7 wimbledons, because I would hate to think Rafa was robbed of 2 wimbledons (2006, 2007), although I've never really valued wimbledon as much as Roland Garros so not the end of the world.

rafa is at least as suspect as roger if not more.

however the conditioning aspect of roger is underrated as people always see the artist in him. IMO roger is by far the best conditioned guy in tennis history. I almost never saw him getting tired even in 5 setters.

Tony48
10-23-2012, 01:16 PM
People really buy this story? It's a red herring,just like him sitting in that egg contraption was. It's not what's really going on,and I cannot believe people would think that stopping gluten would turn someone who spent his entire career as a weakling,into a tireless beast. The gluten free thing is total bollocks.

I don't think Clarky will ever get over the fact that Djokovic owned Nadal for an entire year.

Clarky might as well substitute all future posts about Djokovic with "I'M STILL BITTER". It's more concise that way.

ivan_the_terrible
10-23-2012, 01:17 PM
Allegations that 1 of the top guys is doping but not the others are simply not credible. Those players can stay toe to toe with one another event after event, match after match. So either they all get "help" or none of them do. Because if one of them didn't follow more or less the same regimen, no way on earth could he keep up with the "enhanced" ones on a regular basis. He would simply not stay at the top and would become one of the numerous "good but not that good" bundle of players.

Totally agree. I think Fed started doping to keep up with bigger, stronger, faster guys.

dimeaxe
10-23-2012, 01:22 PM
Fed had a MILD case of mono,and never went from zero to a hundred physically like ******* did. I don't even know what his mono has to do with anything considering it slowed him down phycially,and didn't help him. What are you getting at here?

And please show me where Fed was a tired,weakling for 75% of his career only to turn it all around overnight and become a beast physically? What ******* did last year and continues to do goes against what he was able to do for his entire career beforehand. His dramatic physical change happened in 1 month's time at the end of 2010. Did Fed ever in his whole career do anything like that?

Honey:)He wasn't slowed down, he had stomach issues, his PR made this silly story.If you have any type of mono thing, you can't play tennis, you're in bed and if it's true, and I'm sure it's not, Mirka should check Roger faithfulness:)

veroniquem
10-23-2012, 01:23 PM
Also, there are a lot of those mono like viral conditions going around in tennis. It seems that the rate is higher than in the population in general (look at the stuff happening to Fish, Soderling or Venus). It could just be stress/ chronic fatigue or bad luck but it could also be side effects of whatever doping method players are using on their overall health/ immune system.

ivan_the_terrible
10-23-2012, 01:25 PM
I'm sure you're right, but someone's camp, especially if they're clean, could decide to make an example of a few like the whole Napster stuff a few years ago. I'd be shocked if anything like that ever happened, but I'd still never feel confident enough to post anything saying I'm positive so and so is doping.

I really do have a bad feeling something is about to break in tennis. I just don't want to see any one player be made a scapegoat if it's true that the problem is widespread. I'd rather see them clean house if they feel it's time something needs to be done.

Nothing will happen in the short-term. Tennis anti-doping is a joke & only a fool would be caught today. The ITF (as stated by other posters) is all about protecting it's cash cow.

Maybe 10 years from now? Perhaps. Maybe a former top tennis guy will break the Omerta & everyone will say "Hey I always suspected player X, I know it was impossible for him to do such & such!" Very much like the Armstrong case. Do you recall how the French were vilified for accusing him? His fans called them 'jealous, envious, sour-grapes" etc etc. Now the shoe is on the other foot...

firefox
10-23-2012, 01:29 PM
Nadal caught doping! :shock:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/doping-ring-busted-in-andorra

Steve0904
10-23-2012, 01:42 PM
I have Federer's biography, and I've read that he contracted mono when he ate "tainted" chicken meat as it was termed.

Mike Sams
10-23-2012, 01:45 PM
If people can say Nadal is doping, Federer is just as much likely of a serious candidate. (maybe even moreso then Nadal). Fed has never had any serious injuries.. Has he even missed a slam since 2003? He has the insane ability to physically recover even as an OLD tennis player that just seems very odd. He can continue to play dozens and dozens of matches for 10 years straights and never really have any major physical let-downs. That alone can make one shake their hand. How do you do that without the use of some "help?". Especially if you consider his age and how much more physical the game has gotten? Steroids help you recover fast, and get you back out there playing

All circumstantial, but its easy to point the finger at both Nadal and Federer.. Not to do so is kind of naive.

If Armstrong has been juicing for a gazillion years, I wouldn't put it by anyone

Federer plays a very different style of tennis than Nadal.

Mike Sams
10-23-2012, 01:47 PM
Obviously a lot of people are gunning for federer, the guy's year-long stamina is unprecedented. At age 30 he lasts the year better than a 25-year-old ever did. But I truly hope federer is never stripped of his 7 wimbledons, because I would hate to think Rafa was robbed of 2 wimbledons (2006, 2007), although I've never really valued wimbledon as much as Roland Garros so not the end of the world.

Year long stamina? He takes frequent breaks in the season. And his style of tennis is far less taxing than the bone-breaking gladiator style of tennis Nadal plays. :lol:

dimeaxe
10-23-2012, 01:48 PM
I have Federer's biography, and I've read that he contracted mono when he ate "tainted" chicken meat as it was termed.

And it was roasted by chef Novak:mrgreen:

BrooklynNY
10-23-2012, 01:50 PM
I have Federer's biography, and I've read that he contracted mono when he ate "tainted" chicken meat as it was termed.

Isn't that what Alberto Contador said too??

:D

octogon
10-23-2012, 01:55 PM
Year long stamina? He takes frequent breaks in the season. And his style of tennis is far less taxing than the bone-breaking gladiator style of tennis Nadal plays. :lol:

It's still a highly physical sport, and you need incredible levels of stamina to keep up at the highest level, especially since Nadal arrived on the scene and made tennis a game of attrition (ie, "he who lasts longest, wins"). Federer's conditioning is beyond incredible. To the point where you have to wonder if it's all natural.

I've always felt the "Federer has a less physical style" excuse was a bit of self-delusion by his fans to insulate him from doping claims that follow other top players. To live with all these incredibly fit, younger guys (Nadal, Djoker, Murray) at his age, he has to be at least as suspect as the rest of the them. His style of play doesn't make a difference.

Federer20042006
10-23-2012, 02:00 PM
I do wonder if Federer started doping this year or at some point last year, which is why his play has improved. Something about his reaction to winning Wimbledon really seemed "off"...like he both wasn't surprised, and wasn't all that proud of himself.

The guilt might really be getting to him, even though he was able to justify it with, "come on, this is a freak'n joke...Djokovic, Nadal, and Murray are all so blatantly doing it."

On another note - am I the only one who thinks Clarky21 wants to have hot, passionate hate sex with Djokovic?

Gonzo_style
10-23-2012, 02:34 PM
I do wonder if Federer started doping this year or at some point last year, which is why his play has improved. Something about his reaction to winning Wimbledon really seemed "off"...like he both wasn't surprised, and wasn't all that proud of himself.

The guilt might really be getting to him, even though he was able to justify it with, "come on, this is a freak'n joke...Djokovic, Nadal, and Murray are all so blatantly doing it."

On another note - am I the only one who thinks Clarky21 wants to have hot, passionate hate sex with Djokovic?

LOL you would probably be banned for that, be careful :)

Clarky21
10-23-2012, 02:40 PM
I do wonder if Federer started doping this year or at some point last year, which is why his play has improved. Something about his reaction to winning Wimbledon really seemed "off"...like he both wasn't surprised, and wasn't all that proud of himself.

The guilt might really be getting to him, even though he was able to justify it with, "come on, this is a freak'n joke...Djokovic, Nadal, and Murray are all so blatantly doing it."

On another note - am I the only one who thinks Clarky21 wants to have hot, passionate hate sex with Djokovic?



That would be the recently banned Evan who would gladly do anything and everything ******* asked him to do. And maybe even you too. :)

Clarky21
10-23-2012, 02:41 PM
Honey:)He wasn't slowed down, he had stomach issues, his PR made this silly story.If you have any type of mono thing, you can't play tennis, you're in bed and if it's true, and I'm sure it's not, Mirka should check Roger faithfulness:)



Stomach issues? Never heard that before. Got a link?

Steve0904
10-23-2012, 03:01 PM
I do wonder if Federer started doping this year or at some point last year, which is why his play has improved. Something about his reaction to winning Wimbledon really seemed "off"...like he both wasn't surprised, and wasn't all that proud of himself.

The guilt might really be getting to him, even though he was able to justify it with, "come on, this is a freak'n joke...Djokovic, Nadal, and Murray are all so blatantly doing it."

On another note - am I the only one who thinks Clarky21 wants to have hot, passionate hate sex with Djokovic?

Yeah, ok I understand the point of this thread, but I think we should stop looking into things like reactions being "off." Do you realize how bad what you wrote sounds? Not that anybody else sounds any better.

Steve0904
10-23-2012, 03:02 PM
Isn't that what Alberto Contador said too??

:D

I haven't read Contador's biography ;)

Steve0904
10-23-2012, 03:04 PM
And it was roasted by chef Novak:mrgreen:

I'm sure it was :)

diggler
10-23-2012, 03:33 PM
All these allegations to all the players (especially the top 4) by everybody on these boards is absurd. As RF20Lennon said, it's innocent until proven guilty. Period.

Yes nobody is guilty yet because there hasn't been an investigation or trial. That is why we need an investigation. With no investigation, Lance would still be king of the world.

diggler
10-23-2012, 03:36 PM
Think Blake is really grasping at straws here if he is implying that and has no proof.(not saying rafa or roger are or are not)

But one thing that is more likely is that Blake did not dope at all even during his run to the top 5 that year. He even refuses anti-inflammatories. He is adamant about this because of his father's bout with stomach cancer and stays off even an advil here and there.

Yes he has no proof. So what? That is why you hold an investigation. If someone runs 100m in 5 seconds, there is no proof they doped, but you might want to investigate it don't you think?

diggler
10-23-2012, 03:41 PM
Have you read the USADA report? I'ts utterly damning. Armstrong is guilty as sin; anyone who reads even a portion of the report can see that, plain as day.

Do you also object to the stripping of Marion Jones' medals? Just like Lance, she also employed doctors that were too good at doping and hiding doping to get caught red-handed with a positive test. Just like Lance she swore up and down that she never used drugs and that she had never tested positive. But in the end she was stripped of her medals in the same way that Lance was finally caught. These are criminal conspiracies and at this point they can only be broken up through investigative reporting, detective work, eyewitness testimony (Conte and Hunter in Jones' case, half the USPS team in Armstrong's case) - law enforcement, basically.

Your argument seems to be that only positive tests count. But the whole point is that the cheaters are too good at avoiding the tests. Ultimately, by continuing to support cheaters who have been caught after the fact by good law enforcement work you are saying that it's OK to dope as long as you don't get caught. Which is the same thing that dopers tell themselves.

What actually constitutes proof. Positive drug test? Marion Jones never had one. If a drug test is not definitive, then that shouldn't be the measure of guilt or innocence.

kOaMaster
10-23-2012, 03:51 PM
I just farted.

and wanna come back to that fart thing

sureshs
10-23-2012, 03:52 PM
Yes he has no proof. So what? That is why you hold an investigation. If someone runs 100m in 5 seconds, there is no proof they doped, but you might want to investigate it don't you think?

Who did the equivalent of that in tennis?

leroy_sunset
10-23-2012, 03:53 PM
The Federer allegations are absurd. If you watch clips from him in 2005-2006 and him now, there are two completely different players. The former player was so aggressive that he'd simply blow people off the court. His serve wasn't that great and hit shot selection didn't need to be because he could create angles not known to mathematics. The Federer today is much, MUCH slower, but still moves around the court better than just about anyone because he relies less on footspeed and more on anticipation. He chooses each shot purposefully, uses a slice MUCH more often to construct points, puts in droppers, and these days if he's not serving well, he won't win. If he is serving well, not even Djoker beats him. Federer doesn't destroy his body because he does not run it into the ground like everyone else...because he doesn't need to. He's just far smarter than the field. PEDs do not improve your intelligence.

Quoted for truth. But he might still be on the juice :-|

90's Clay
10-23-2012, 04:10 PM
Granted, I'm just a regular joe shmo but was somewhat pretty athletic in my younger years, but just playing a few hours on the tennis court (hard court) for 3-4 days, I was feeling the effects for the next week or so after that.. You're body does take a pounding going pivoting back and forth, running all over the place.. Just as a kid you felt it.

I don't how in the hell the top guys can maintain such a high level (and taken into account the physicality the game demands now) as opposed to previous generations and all the hard court tournaments we have now which wreak more havoc on the joints, match after match, round after round, year after year..

And then you get someone like Fed out there who's 31 and it doesn't seem to affect him the slightest. You gotta admit its a little weird to think these top guys wouldn't be doing something extra really to recover from that constant pounding on the joints.

Tennis has to be one of the most physically demanding sports considering (especially now) there isn't much of an off season, everything slowed down and you have to chase for everything and rally all day long to win. I don't know how you can do it physically for years on end, continue to play at a constant high level and not use PED's.

sureshs
10-23-2012, 04:14 PM
The top players put in a lot of gym work and have a massage after every match. They are put up in luxury hotels and have every detail arranged for them. A physio and trainer is part of their entourage.

So it is not surprising that they can play many matches.

RogerFan1991
10-23-2012, 04:21 PM
If people can say Nadal is doping, Federer is just as much likely of a serious candidate. (maybe even moreso then Nadal). Fed has never had any serious injuries.. Has he even missed a slam since 2003? He has the insane ability to physically recover even as an OLD tennis player that just seems very odd. He can continue to play dozens and dozens of matches for 10 years straights and never really have any major physical let-downs. That alone can make one shake their hand. How do you do that without the use of some "help?". Especially if you consider his age and how much more physical the game has gotten? Steroids help you recover fast, and get you back out there playing

All circumstantial, but its easy to point the finger at both Nadal and Federer.. Not to do so is kind of naive.

If Armstrong has been juicing for a gazillion years, I wouldn't put it by anyone

How? Just by having a natural talent, so that you dont need to expose your body to great lenghts.....is that easy, the problem is that some poeple cant handle it, maybe because of the envy they have over Federer. Im sorry my friend you gonna have keep envying him at least for two or three years.

Federer20042006
10-23-2012, 05:02 PM
Yeah, ok I understand the point of this thread, but I think we should stop looking into things like reactions being "off." Do you realize how bad what you wrote sounds? Not that anybody else sounds any better.

Just a gut feeling I had that I can't shake. What's the big deal? It's a message board...what I say really doesn't matter.

Steve0904
10-23-2012, 05:52 PM
Just a gut feeling I had that I can't shake. What's the big deal? It's a message board...what I say really doesn't matter.

It's not a big deal. It's just how a message board works. If somebody says something another person doesn't agree with then they argue hopefully in a civil way. Sorry if I offended you.

Steve0904
10-23-2012, 06:02 PM
To be quite honest, I don't spend my days thinking about whether top tennis players are doping, and forums are a very small, nearly insignificant percentage of the tennis watching public. I know it's a possibilty. I've just never thought about it with any of the top guys when I'm watching tennis. At least not before I joined this forum. The level of speculation surprises me, and I wish we'd stop throwing it around almost as if it's fact, but that will probably never happen.

90's Clay
10-23-2012, 06:05 PM
To be quite honest, I don't spend my days thinking about whether top tennis players are doping, and forums are a very small, nearly insignificant percentage of the tennis watching public. I know it's a possibilty. I've just never thought about it with any of the top guys when I'm watching tennis. At least not before I joined this forum. The level of speculation surprises me, and I wish we'd stop throwing it around almost as if it's fact, but that will probably never happen.

Why does the level of speculation surprise you? Top athletes are getting busted for doping left and right these days.. Then we got the Andre Confession how they swept his meth use under the rug. Imagine what they could do with top players today that are doping. Its a dirty business anymore

Steve0904
10-23-2012, 06:39 PM
Why does the level of speculation surprise you? Top athletes are getting busted for doping left and right these days.. Then we got the Andre Confession how they swept his meth use under the rug. Imagine what they could do with top players today that are doping. Its a dirty business anymore

I guess I should've said it better. The speculation doesn't necessarily surprise me, but I'm just one of those innocent until proven guilty people I guess, and I'd rather not throw around arguments with gaping holes in them to try and prove someone is guilty or innocent, and this place seems very good at it.

BorisBeckerFan
10-23-2012, 10:12 PM
The Federer allegations are absurd. If you watch clips from him in 2005-2006 and him now, there are two completely different players. The former player was so aggressive that he'd simply blow people off the court. His serve wasn't that great and hit shot selection didn't need to be because he could create angles not known to mathematics. The Federer today is much, MUCH slower, but still moves around the court better than just about anyone because he relies less on footspeed and more on anticipation. He chooses each shot purposefully, uses a slice MUCH more often to construct points, puts in droppers, and these days if he's not serving well, he won't win. If he is serving well, not even Djoker beats him. Federer doesn't destroy his body because he does not run it into the ground like everyone else...because he doesn't need to. He's just far smarter than the field. PEDs do not improve your intelligence.

I'm sure you probably aren't aware of all the research being done on some PEDs that actually improve not only your intelligence but also your mental acuity which is vital for tennis. PEDs are all over the place. It's very comfortable to sit back and think Nadal or Fed or so and so couldn't be on PED's because hey, they are nice guys. I'm not making any accusations but do not be surprised if your idol gets caught. Let's not be ignorant and naive of the realities of professional sports.

namelessone
10-23-2012, 11:36 PM
Modern sports should be split off in 2 categories like bodybuilding: natural and the "anything goes" category. The guys that want to go in the natural get to be tested dozens of times just to make sure and the other category won't bother since they will be up front about their practices. And the difference between the 2 categories are like day and night when you look at the practitioners.

In today's sports, many guys dope and only a few get caught. Those few that do are either stupid or were given up by others that were stupid enough to be caught themselves. If we talk about cycling, then the Armstrong case is an absolute joke. Of the guys that take part in the tour, maybe 10% are clean. Maybe. Yet we are supposed to believe that only Armstrong/Contador/couple other famous riders are doped to the gills? Please. Almost everybody in cycling is cycling, if you know what I mean.

I've lived enough to see changes in pace even in team sports where you can have smaller and more frequent periods of rest, like in football(soccer). You see teams today(even medium sized clubs, nevermind giants like Barcelona,Madrid,Juventus) go in the 80th minute like it's nothing whereas major teams in the past were already semi spent by the 75th minute of play and the speed was slower then. Improved fitness overall? Perhaps, but such major jumps in fitness will always arise suspicion.

Doping in sports today means half measures all around.

Rhino
10-24-2012, 02:38 AM
My gut feeling is that there are high profile tennis players doping.

There were people inside the UCI that knew about Lance Armstrong all along, but chose to protect him because they did not want to damage the sport of cycling.
It's possible that the ATP might feel the same way if they knew of a high profile doping situation in tennis.
Obviously for a long time we have heard rumors passed around about certain players doping. We dismiss them because it's always seemed so unlikely that any player could actually get away with it for so long. They have all these tests right? Well now we know through the Armstrong case how easy it is for the testers to be avoided at critical times and how many methods are available to athletes to consistently appear clean over many years, despite numerous tests. So suddenly it no longer seems out of the question that a high profile tennis player might also be able to get away with doping.

You have to look at players who are achieving crazy levels of endurance. Playing for hours on end one day and then coming back again and again the next day and the next and playing with seemingly bottomless levels of energy.

I seriously suspect one or two guys out there now, whereas before I used to just think "not possible".

Still as of now, there is no evidence. Time will tell hopefully if anybody out there has been cheating.

ramosxp
10-24-2012, 03:28 AM
You hear very little about players doping in tennis compared to other sports like cycling or olympians. I can't imagine the standards for testing in tennis is as stringent. There's cheating in tennis and unfortunately these cheats haven't been caught. Even when they do get caught, the penalty isn't all that severe.

There are some former top 10 players who dropped out of the top who I'd put money on have cheated. They were never caught, but then again they haven't been back in the top 10 to be in anyones radar.

zebedee
10-24-2012, 07:50 AM
In my opinion Blake's remarks were more to do with a point he was making about the sport in general rather than pointing to any player in particular. For a still active pro, where omerta on the subject still rules the roost, that would be going a step too far. And we've repeatedly heard this type of remark coming from other pro's so there's nothing new in what he suggests.

I think it's almost irrelevant at this point to say player X or Y is doping because circumstantial evidence aside, there is very little to go on that points the finger directly at any individual in particular though we can all justifiably hold suspicions and speculate.

However, the ITF's stance - that there is no evidence to indicate a systemic doping problem in tennis - is also an inherently weak one and the wrong way to look at the problem in my view. In any professional sport where success is conditional on athletic ability, training and the ability to recover from injury and tiredness, that is undoubtably a sport where it is safe to assume that serious doping exists at the professional level and at that point it becomes incumbent on the authority responsible, the ITF in this case, to determine both the extent of the doping and to create a system that actually catches the dopers rather then pretends to.

With the testing regime in tennis as laughably weak as it is, there is virtually no chance that a serious, committed doper will be caught. Even a cursory reading of the Armstrong report will indicate how easy it is to evade doping controls and that in a sport which has shown infinitely more commitment to anti-doping and OOC testing than has tennis. Doping controls in tennis are purely an IQ test where only the dumb get caught. And yet as a sport there is every incentive to dope given the fame and financial rewards on offer and plenty of doping doctors around trained in the black arts and willing to barter their skills for money.

Personally, I don't think any sporting authority can properly police its own sport. The problem is now too big. We've seen this in the USADA report where nearly all the evidence has emerged from sources other than testing itself. Effective anti-doping requires changes in law (to make doping a criminal offence, for doctors, trainers as well as the athletes) as well as a more thorough testing programme where in tennis the top twenty players at least would be required to submit to almost constant testing. If that's too tough for them well they can always go and get another day job.