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View Full Version : If ATP had to get rid of one of these MS 1000 which one would it be?


Tammo
10-28-2012, 07:05 PM
If ATP every took one away would it be Cincy, IW, or Miami? Personally I think Miami.

Sri
10-28-2012, 07:14 PM
Monte Carlo. It's already non mandatory.

Gonzo_style
10-28-2012, 07:20 PM
Monte Carlo. It's already non mandatory.

That was not the option!

norbac
10-28-2012, 07:41 PM
Indian Wells and Cinci are two of my favorite stops of the year, so out of those three it would have to be Miami.

cork_screw
10-28-2012, 08:02 PM
What is the point of this thread? What do you gain for taking away one of these events that people really enjoy watching and generates a ton of money?

Can I ask a random question? What would the world be without beef?

Sabratha
10-28-2012, 08:28 PM
I'm going to say Miami.

Gizo
10-28-2012, 08:32 PM
Definately one of the outdoor hard events. 5 masters events out of 9 on outdoor hard is excessive.

Miami should change surface to green clay to add more variety and flavour to the tour. That would actually be a pretty logical move given that har-tru is such a surface in Florida, and that the European red clay season swiftly follows.

I believe that the tournament directors there seriously considered that change in surface a few years ago, but opted against it unfortunately.

Too many slow hard court tournaments are bad for men's tennis and the health of the players.

Towser83
10-28-2012, 08:50 PM
Why those 3? I wouldn't want to get rid of any of those.

I would chose either Shanghai, Paris or Madrid in that order of preference.

Out of the ones you listed it would have to be IW. Cinci is one of the only fast hardcourts left and Miami has history as a really prestigious event, at one point having 7 best of 5 matches.

OddJack
10-28-2012, 09:23 PM
monte carlo

Mustard
10-28-2012, 09:49 PM
Monte Carlo is one of the very best tennis tournaments.

cc0509
10-28-2012, 09:57 PM
Monte Carlo is one of the very best tennis tournaments.

Not for me. For me it is pretty much a snorefest.

norbac
10-28-2012, 10:09 PM
Monte Carlo is one of the very best tennis tournaments.

Has been one of the most predictable tournaments of the season for the past few years now. I do like the scenery, though.

Colin
10-28-2012, 10:10 PM
The great thing about masters is that they're mandatory and all the top players need to show (except for those who have earned exemptions). I don't get the point of a nonmandatory masters. Either make it mandatory or demote it to 500 status. I'd prefer the latter and the addition of a fast-grass masters to fill its spot.

timnz
10-28-2012, 11:02 PM
Monte Carlo. It's already non mandatory.

To me a significant portion of establishing the prestige of an event is tradition. Monte Carlo has the most tradition of any of the Masters 1000 events. The fact that it is non-compulsory is irrelevant to the events value. The sports greatest players have competed in the event in parts or whole of 3 centuries now. It has always been regarded as one of the premier clay events. I would go so far to say that it should be the most protected of all of the Masters 1000 events.

timnz
10-28-2012, 11:04 PM
To me that seems to be the event that seems the poorest attended. It only has recent history, hence not much tradition.

Mainad
10-28-2012, 11:26 PM
To me a significant portion of establishing the prestige of an event is tradition. Monte Carlo has the most tradition of any of the Masters 1000 events. The fact that it is non-compulsory is irrelevant to the events value. The sports greatest players have competed in the event in parts or whole of 3 centuries now. It has always been regarded as one of the premier clay events. I would go so far to say that it should be the most protected of all of the Masters 1000 events.

Not so. Canada (Montreal/Toronto) has the most tradition. It is the 3rd oldest tennis tournament in the world after Wimbledon and the US Open. It was founded in 1881. Monte Carlo was founded in 1897, Cincinnati in 1899. Those 3 are by far the oldest of all the Masters tournaments.

jokinla
10-29-2012, 12:23 AM
How about Monte Carlo, since it's not mandatory, it's obviously the weakest one. I'd go Shanghai next, they don't care over there.

Zildite
10-29-2012, 12:32 AM
Not so. Canada (Montreal/Toronto) has the most tradition. It is the 3rd oldest tennis tournament in the world after Wimbledon and the US Open. It was founded in 1881. Monte Carlo was founded in 1897, Cincinnati in 1899. Those 3 are by far the oldest of all the Masters tournaments.

Tradition = age?

PCXL-Fan
10-29-2012, 12:56 AM
I'm sorry sureshs but i'd have to say Cincinnati.

augustobt
10-29-2012, 01:40 AM
Tradition = age?

Age isn't all, but a great part of it.

roysid
10-29-2012, 02:08 AM
Are u crazy. Indianwells and Miami are the two biggest M1000. They are 2 week event with a draw of 96 players(ATP and WTA combined).

All the remaining are 1 week, 56 player events.

If you consider all 9, then the ones to be considered to go are
-Monte Carlo (non-mandatory, exclusively clay)
-Shanghai (too far)
-Paris (by then most are finished)

reversef
10-29-2012, 02:18 AM
For me, it would be Bercy. The competition is often weak because the best players are injured or exhausted at that time of the year. Changing the calendar and putting Bercy in february will mean that the players will arrive at Wimbledon completely washed up.
But since the OP asks to choose between Indian Wells, Miami and Cincinnati, it would be Indian Wells. Remove Indian Wells, put Miami on har-tru so that it's coherent with the following part of the season.
Cincinnati is perfect how it is. It's a good way to prepare the USO.

Ms Nadal
10-29-2012, 02:22 AM
None of these events would be dropped, these are the star events. They can drop Paris and blue clay Madrid!

Zildite
10-29-2012, 02:26 AM
Age isn't all, but a great part of it.

Sometimes I think 'tradition' is one of those terms like 'talent' or 'athleticism' where everyone knows about it but have their own idea on what it is.

Are u crazy. Indianwells and Miami are the two biggest M1000. They are 2 week event with a draw of 96 players(ATP and WTA combined).

That is the point of the thread, isn't it? Otherwise we all know by now that everyone would just choose tournaments like...

If you consider all 9, then the ones to be considered to go are
-Monte Carlo (non-mandatory, exclusively clay)
-Shanghai (too far)
-Paris (by then most are finished)

...oops, there you go.

6-1 6-3 6-0
10-29-2012, 02:30 AM
Get rid of Shanghai, Paris and the elitist, nonsensical World Tour Finals.

Tafmatch
10-29-2012, 02:37 AM
Get rid of Shanghai, Paris and the elitist, nonsensical World Tour Finals.

Man... what's wrong with you, seriously?

Tafmatch
10-29-2012, 02:55 AM
Allright, I'll give you what you want. Have fun:

Skip the elitist Monte Carlo.

tennis_pro
10-29-2012, 02:59 AM
Monte Carlo is one of the very best tennis tournaments.

We know why:)

From the list mentioned - I'd say Indian Wells although it's a pretty big Masters.

From the 9 if I had to get rid of a Masters I'd say:
1) Shanghai - empty stadiums
2) Paris - too late in the year
3) Madrid - very unstable

The rest are a must.

Ms Nadal
10-29-2012, 03:13 AM
Monte Carlo is one of the very best tennis tournaments.

I agree! Monte Carlo is a lovely well run tourney. It has one of the most beautiful picturesque views you will ever find at a tourney. Lovely place! :). It is well organised too!.

tennis_pro
10-29-2012, 03:17 AM
Allright, I'll give you what you want. Have fun:

Skip the elitist Monte Carlo.

More like:

Allright, I'll give you what you want. Wait for it....Monte Carlo!!!

*runs for his life*

North
10-29-2012, 03:27 AM
None of the above. I love the hard court Masters. Get rid of clay court Masters - or make them like the blue clay earlier this year.

syc23
10-29-2012, 03:31 AM
It's not actually getting rid of HC MS1000s, it's more about scheduling them so that they follow the slams and the surface it's been played on in a logical order.

One wonders why the AO has to come so soon in the new year, could they not schedule Miami & IW in Feb/March and have the AO in April. Then it rolls onto the European clay swing before FO. Give a few more weeks for players to adjust to grass and elevate Queens/Halle to MS1000 status to balance out the amount of clay/HC Masters.

After a summer break, continue with Canada & Cincy as normal before USO. For the final stretch of the season, Shanghai & Paris leading up to WTF is fine.

If anything, make 500s non mandatory so it gives players option whether to enter or not. Every player regardless of experience/age can opt to skip 1 Master per season.

Steve0904
10-29-2012, 06:07 AM
I voted for Cincy even though it's one of the only faster courts left. I don't know why really. I just like IW/Miami more than Cincy. I agree with syc23 though. The scheduling of IW/Miami has never made sense to me. I also agree that I wouldn't ditch any of those events. Shanghai or Paris can go before those in the poll.

Paul Murphy
10-29-2012, 06:11 AM
Miami, of the three offered.
Monte Carlo if all were on the table.

augustobt
10-29-2012, 06:58 AM
Sometimes I think 'tradition' is one of those terms like 'talent' or 'athleticism' where everyone knows about it but have their own idea on what it is. That's because it's world with a lot of meanings, just like marketing. Tradition could mean something with a lot of value passed from one generation to another. For example, Nadal and the other Spaniards see Barcelona as a very traditional event. I don't see, because I wasn't raised to think that. That's the one of the points why "age" is one of the main points of a tradition.

TMF
10-29-2012, 08:45 AM
That was not the option!

There's 9 MS but the OP is a ******* so he had only 3 options. However it's pretty clear that most fans want to keep IW, Miami and Cinci. IW/Miami both have the men and women competiting, with the highest draw(96). In the past years, IW is recognized as the 5th slam. It has been the most successful MS with growing popularity, most attendance and highest money/prize. Cinci is the only fast hard court we have left, the surface is the closest to USO, so it's an ideal event to prepare for the USO.

Capiche?

TMF
10-29-2012, 08:53 AM
Many of you believe Monte Carlo is the first on the list to be remove. I agree that it's not a mandatory anymore and the ATP officials downgraded to an ATP500(which means player can opt out to play an atp500 on any surface to accummulate points). OTOH, if a player skip other MS events(mandatory) he loses points and there's nothing for him to make up for loss.

TMF
10-29-2012, 08:57 AM
For me, it would be Bercy. The competition is often weak because the best players are injured or exhausted at that time of the year. Changing the calendar and putting Bercy in february will mean that the players will arrive at Wimbledon completely washed up.
But since the OP asks to choose between Indian Wells, Miami and Cincinnati, it would be Indian Wells. Remove Indian Wells, put Miami on har-tru so that it's coherent with the following part of the season.
Cincinnati is perfect how it is. It's a good way to prepare the USO.

Have you watched Monte Carlo this year?

Players have been severely injured because of the poor, uneven clay suface. It's not worth losing a leg in the middle of the year.

Don't forget non-mandatory event doesn't help boost competition.:)

CMM
10-29-2012, 08:59 AM
Cincinnati.

augustobt
10-29-2012, 09:19 AM
Have you watched Monte Carlo this year?

Players have been severely injured because of the poor, uneven clay suface. It's not worth losing a leg in the middle of the year.

Don't forget non-mandatory event doesn't help boost competition.:)

Monaco and Benneteau, top 40 players. And nobody got hurt in Madrid's Blue Clay.

RF20Lennon
10-29-2012, 09:21 AM
IMO shanghai or MC ( don't get me wronging love the picturesque view and stuff but no one except nadal takes it seriously)

AnotherTennisProdigy
10-29-2012, 09:31 AM
I would pick Cinci if it weren't for the lack if fast tournaments.

kishnabe
10-29-2012, 11:13 AM
Indian Wells for it's racist incident against Serena and Venus.

Though if I had a choice it would be Shanghai(the crowd are uneducated about tennis, and the asian swing is worthless). Monte Carlo should stay because it is optional.

Agassifan
10-29-2012, 11:56 AM
Monte Carlo.

All the US MS 1000s are well attended.

PeteD
10-29-2012, 12:12 PM
It's not actually getting rid of HC MS1000s, it's more about scheduling them so that they follow the slams and the surface it's been played on in a logical order.

One wonders why the AO has to come so soon in the new year, could they not schedule Miami & IW in Feb/March and have the AO in April. Then it rolls onto the European clay swing before FO. Give a few more weeks for players to adjust to grass and elevate Queens/Halle to MS1000 status to balance out the amount of clay/HC Masters.

After a summer break, continue with Canada & Cincy as normal before USO. For the final stretch of the season, Shanghai & Paris leading up to WTF is fine.

If anything, make 500s non mandatory so it gives players option whether to enter or not. Every player regardless of experience/age can opt to skip 1 Master per season.

Agree with much of your thinkling. The tour schedule as a whole needs a fresh look. That said, seems like Shanghai is especially weirdly situated (should be close to Aussie). Also, the way the Tour is set up now, Paris Bercy not at the right time or place.

Ms Nadal
10-29-2012, 12:17 PM
Agree with much of your thinkling. The tour schedule as a whole needs a fresh look. That said, seems like Shanghai is especially weirdly situated (should be close to Aussie). Also, the way the Tour is set up now, Paris Bercy not at the right time or place.

Exactly, the asian swing should be near AO as it is in that part of the world enroute. The schedule is too much really. But when the players bring it up they get crucified.

reversef
10-29-2012, 12:34 PM
Have you watched Monte Carlo this year?

Players have been severely injured because of the poor, uneven clay suface. It's not worth losing a leg in the middle of the year.

Don't forget non-mandatory event doesn't help boost competition.:)
Tell me when Monte Carlo has been non competitive. The masters of Shanghai and Bercy are generally less competitive than that one.
There are only 3 MM played on clay. I don't think it's necessary to remove one of them. And mandatory or not, Monte Carlo has a lot of tradition and prestige.
I didn't talk about Monte Carlo in my post BTW.

underground
10-29-2012, 01:34 PM
Why didn't OP but Monte Carlo in? That was the very 1st answer that came into my mind before even clicking the link. It's non-mandatory, this year weather has been horrible, plus random holes in the court that causes injuries.

Gorecki
10-29-2012, 03:47 PM
the crappiest of them all, Monte Cagarlo!!!!

Gizo
10-29-2012, 06:00 PM
For me an ideal masters series line-up would be something like:

Indian Wells - Slow Hard Court
Miami - Green Clay (a much better and safer surface than a slow hard court, and this would add some nice surface variety to the tour)
Monte-Carlo - Red Clay
Barcelona - Red Clay (even decades before Nadal was on the tour this was still always a prestigious tournament and the true Spanish Open)
Rome - Red Clay
Montreal/Toronto - Fast Hard Court
Cincinnati - Fast Hard Court
Hamburg or any other major German city with a good indoor facility - Fast Indoor Carpet

So I would get rid of Madrid, Shanghai and Bercy. Shanghai is so poorly attended, and is yet another masters event on outdoor hard (the 5th of the year).

Bercy has been around since 1968, but really only became a big tournament in the late 80s. For many years, other indoor tournaments such as Philadelphia, Wembley, Stockholm, Milan, Sydney Indoor and Tokyo Indoor were all bigger and more important. Plus I don't think any one city should host both a slam and a masters event.

Madrid is just one big fiasco. The Madrid tennis grand prix tournament that was around from 1972-1994 was a nice event though, with best of 5 set finals and many elite clay court players playing there.

In an ideal world Halle and Queen's would also both be 500 events in the 2nd or a 3 week period between RG and Wimbledon (which thankfully we will get from 2015).

oy vey
10-29-2012, 06:01 PM
the crappiest of them all, Monte Cagarlo!!!!

Crappy? beautiful

Towser83
10-29-2012, 06:11 PM
I would maybe have

IW - Medium hardcourt
Miami - Slow hardcourt
Madrid - Clay but fast because of altitude
MC - Clay
Rome - Clay

RG

Halle - Grass
Queens - Grass

Wimby

Canada - Medium hard hardcourt

US Open


Cinci - Fast indoor Hardcourt

WTF - fast indoor hard

reversef
10-30-2012, 02:08 AM
For me an ideal masters series line-up would be something like:

Indian Wells - Slow Hard Court
Miami - Green Clay (a much better and safer surface than a slow hard court, and this would add some nice surface variety to the tour)
Monte-Carlo - Red Clay
Barcelona - Red Clay (even decades before Nadal was on the tour this was still always a prestigious tournament and the true Spanish Open)
Rome - Red Clay
Montreal/Toronto - Fast Hard Court
Cincinnati - Fast Hard Court
Hamburg or any other major German city with a good indoor facility - Fast Indoor Carpet

So I would get rid of Madrid, Shanghai and Bercy. Shanghai is so poorly attended, and is yet another masters event on outdoor hard (the 5th of the year).

Bercy has been around since 1968, but really only became a big tournament in the late 80s. For many years, other indoor tournaments such as Philadelphia, Wembley, Stockholm, Milan, Sydney Indoor and Tokyo Indoor were all bigger and more important. Plus I don't think any one city should host both a slam and a masters event.

Madrid is just one big fiasco. The Madrid tennis grand prix tournament that was around from 1972-1994 was a nice event though, with best of 5 set finals and many elite clay court players playing there.

In an ideal world Halle and Queen's would also both be 500 events in the 2nd or a 3 week period between RG and Wimbledon (which thankfully we will get from 2015).
That's a very good line-up.

elpolaco84
10-30-2012, 06:59 AM
poll? miami

but get rid of Montecarlo

and make cincy a 3000pts tournament:mrgreen:

TMF
10-30-2012, 08:52 AM
Tell me when Monte Carlo has been non competitive. The masters of Shanghai and Bercy are generally less competitive than that one.
There are only 3 MM played on clay. I don't think it's necessary to remove one of them. And mandatory or not, Monte Carlo has a lot of tradition and prestige.
2010 Nadal had a cake walk draw, to put it mildly. Fed is the 2nd best cc who made 3 consecutive finals from 2006-08. After that, he doesn't play anymore because it wasn't a mandatory anymore. Many players including himself chose to play an ATP500.


I didn't talk about Monte Carlo in my post BTW.
Yes, I know. But since you mention about players are injured during Bercy, I would say playing at MC is way more dangerous.

Cesc Fabregas
10-30-2012, 08:57 AM
Crappy? beautiful

Ignore him.

Gonzo_style
10-30-2012, 09:15 AM
Fed is the 2nd best cc who made 3 consecutive finals from 2006-08. After that, he doesn't play anymore because it wasn't a mandatory anymore.





Wawrinka in 2009 and Melzer in 2011 beat Federer in Monte Carlo

pvaudio
10-30-2012, 09:27 AM
The three best masters? Why not Rogers or Shanghai? No one cares about those where as even non-tennis players have heard of the "pacific life open" (even though that's not what it's called anymore) and the nasdaq 100. Shanghai and Rogers are just boring which no one even realizes are happening.

NadalAgassi
10-30-2012, 10:05 AM
Madrid or 1 of Shanhai or Paris. Players dont care enough to want to play 2 regular Masters plus the WTF after the Slams are over, especialy now that they dont have a true carpet season to bring some extra excitement. Madrid is simply a total joke as a clay event, it should have remained an indoor event. The poll options as now are ridiculous ones. Even if there are too many hard court events all 3 of those should stay.

beast of mallorca
10-30-2012, 10:11 AM
I would maybe have

IW - Medium hardcourt
Miami - Slow hardcourt
Madrid - Clay but fast because of altitude
MC - Clay
Rome - Clay

RG

Halle - Grass
Queens - Grass

Wimby

Canada - Medium hard hardcourt

US Open


Cinci - Fast indoor Hardcourt

WTF - fast indoor hard

I would agree with this 100 %.
Give Wimbledon its due of Masters 1000. But the problem is the Asian Swing ? uhhmmm. I think, even tho' they are a minority group, they too deserve something. Maybe throw a bone or something

NadalAgassi
10-30-2012, 10:11 AM
2010 Nadal had a cake walk draw, to put it mildly. Fed is the 2nd best cc who made 3 consecutive finals from 2006-08. After that, he doesn't play anymore because it wasn't a mandatory anymore. Many players including himself chose to play an ATP500.


Yeah like an aging Federer was ever any threat to beat Nadal at Monte Carlo on the slowest clay courts, when he never once even came close in his prime. Thanks for the laughs. Federer in his last 2 appearances there in 2009 and 2011 fared poorly so maybe the reason he doesnt bother playing it every year is he knows at this stage of his career he has no chance there, and as long as Nadal is in the draw never had a chance to win there anyway. Given that he played both 2009 and 2011 your claim he never plays there after 2008 is also incorrect. Lastly Djokovic as far as level of play has been a better clay courter than Federer since 2008 anyway. At the very least in 2010 neither was the 2nd best clay courter, and in 2011 and 2012 Djokovic clearly was, and until Djokovic and Nadal destroyed each other in the 09 Madrid semis in the last event before RG both were way better than Federer on the clay that year also, so even if your claim about Federer skipping it each year after 2008 were true, your claim about the Worlds 2nd best clay courter skipping it those years wouldnt be.

Netspirit
10-30-2012, 10:19 AM
The most useless Masters is Monte Carlo. If it is not mandatory, just make it ATP 500.

The next most useless Masters is Shanghai. It makes no sense to keep playing on outdoor HC a month after the US Open just to transition to indoors right after. The crowd is also extremely thin and disinterested.

The next Masters to go is Paris. It is too late and back-to-back with WTF.

Next in my list is Miami. One slow HC tournament after AO? OK, and that is Indian Wells. Two slow HC tournaments - why? Shorten the grueling HC season and let people prepare for clay.

Cincinnati is probably the best Masters tournament out there, alongside Rome - both lead up to the US Open and Roland Garros, respectively (it is a pity we have nothing like that before Wimbledon).

NadalAgassi
10-30-2012, 10:24 AM
I would rate them in current value as:

1. Miami
2. Rome
3. Indian Wells
4. Cincinnati
5. Canadian Open
6. Monte Carlo
7. Shanghai
8. Paris
9. Madrid

So Madrid and Paris would be my 2 choices to go and cut it down to 7. Maybe bring back Madrid as an indoor event or Hamburg as a clay Masters to make it 8.

kaku
10-30-2012, 10:40 AM
If they had to get rid of one they should get rid of Shanghai or make MC a 500. Don't drop Cincy, it's one of the best tournaments of the year

reversef
10-30-2012, 10:48 AM
2010 Nadal had a cake walk draw, to put it mildly. Fed is the 2nd best cc who made 3 consecutive finals from 2006-08. After that, he doesn't play anymore because it wasn't a mandatory anymore. Many players including himself chose to play an ATP500.




And Nadal/Federer once again have to be mentioned. This thread is not about them, but I'm not sure that you are able to see that. Nevertheless, since you need to mention Nadal's supposed cake walk draws in Monte Carlo (not everything starts and ends with Federer. Are Djokovic and Ferrer a walk in the park?), I think that your dear Fed had it much easier in Cincinnati at some point, a tournament that, for me, has to stay where it is. Everything is not about Nadal and Federer.
I mentioned Bercy because it's generally the "one too much" for the players. One thing: look at what happened those last years and you will see that Bercy is the Masters 1000 where the Big 4 had the poorest results and the one that players who don't belong to that group have the best chances to win. Most players are exhausted at that time of the year. And the tournament suffers from that.


Yes, I know. But since you mention about players are injured during Bercy, I would say playing at MC is way more dangerous.

First, I never said that Bercy caused injuries. Read again.
Second, I know that there were problems this year in Monte Carlo, but one year certainly doesn't define the tournament. And don't make a fool of yourself trying to pretend that clay is the most dangerous surface. Every doctor will tell you that it's the best surface for your health. Thanks for playing.

djokovicgonzalez2010
10-30-2012, 10:49 AM
I would hope Miami

beast of mallorca
10-30-2012, 10:56 AM
And Nadal/Federer once again have to be mentioned. This thread is not about them, but I'm not sure that you are able to see that. Nevertheless, since you need to mention Nadal's supposed cake walk draws in Monte Carlo (not everything starts and ends with Federer. Are Djokovic and Ferrer a walk in the park?), I think that your dear Fed had it much easier in Cincinnati at some point, a tournament that, for me, has to stay where it is. Everything is not about Nadal and Federer.


TMF is obsessed with Nadal. Can't get over the defeats Feddy received from Rafa. Insecurity has got the hold of him. Pathetic really.

beast of mallorca
10-30-2012, 10:59 AM
Anyhow, from the choicest that the OP mentioned, I'd go with Miami. No need to have back to back Masters. But if we take into account the rest of the ATP 1000 events, I'd rather they take out Paris Masters and replace it with a Masters 1000 in grass, prior to Wimbledon.

coloskier
10-30-2012, 11:56 AM
Take away one slow clay court snooze fest and add a carpet tournament Masters.

t135
10-30-2012, 12:00 PM
Definately one of the outdoor hard events. 5 masters events out of 9 on outdoor hard is excessive.

Miami should change surface to green clay to add more variety and flavour to the tour. That would actually be a pretty logical move given that har-tru is such a surface in Florida, and that the European red clay season swiftly follows.

I believe that the tournament directors there seriously considered that change in surface a few years ago, but opted against it unfortunately.

Too many slow hard court tournaments are bad for men's tennis and the health of the players.

Brilliant comments!

Hood_Man
10-30-2012, 12:02 PM
I can't choose. Cincinnati is nice and fast, but the other two are the first two Masters of the year.

Gonzo_style
10-30-2012, 01:50 PM
I would rate them in current value as:

1. Miami
2. Rome
3. Indian Wells


I agree, this is the biggest tournaments after Grand Slam, in IW and Miami you have to win six matches (or seven), and Rome is the most prestigious tournament on clay after RG!

timnz
10-30-2012, 03:04 PM
Not so. Canada (Montreal/Toronto) has the most tradition. It is the 3rd oldest tennis tournament in the world after Wimbledon and the US Open. It was founded in 1881. Monte Carlo was founded in 1897, Cincinnati in 1899. Those 3 are by far the oldest of all the Masters tournaments.

Thanks for pointing that out. However, I believe my point still stands given the tradition of Monte Carlo.

Tradition isn't just about age, it is also about sustained esteem the event is held in. The value ascribed to it. Monte Carlo was regarded, even back in the Doherty's and Wildings time (Tony Wilding won it 5 times - he was the record holder before Nadal) as one of the top events.

Events are simply about money. They are about importance. And Monte Carlo has been along with Rome (and Monte Carlo is a lot older than Rome) as the premier clay events for many many decades, outside of Roland Garros.

President
10-30-2012, 03:07 PM
Miami, the wind always ruins this event and the court is slow as mud. Replace it with a grass masters PLEASE!

augustobt
10-30-2012, 04:56 PM
Would be perfect if it was:

Indian Wells
Barcelona (The real spanish open)
Hamburg
Rome (Pre-Roland Garros)
Halle/Queens (Pre Wimbledon, make it like Toronto/Montreal)
Toronto/Montreal
Cincinnati (Pré-USO)
Paris (Pré-WTF with at least one week of rest).

Gorecki
10-31-2012, 08:24 AM
Crappy? beautiful

ist that so? ask Juan Monaco...

augustobt
10-31-2012, 09:18 AM
ist that so? ask Juan Monaco...

or julien benneteau.

Monte-Carlo is a beautiful place, a beautiful venue. But a crappy tournament.

North
10-31-2012, 09:21 AM
Take away one slow clay court snooze fest and add a carpet tournament Masters.

Agree. That would be a good start.

PCXL-Fan
10-31-2012, 10:23 AM
Take away one slow clay court snooze fest and add a carpet tournament Masters.

Nah put in a grasscourt MS.

TMF
10-31-2012, 01:21 PM
or julien benneteau.

Monte-Carlo is a beautiful place, a beautiful venue. But a crappy tournament.ist that so? ask Juan Monaco...

Youtube had the video of Benneteau where he sprained his ankle and crushed his wrist. The video is horrifying so I'll not post it.

Safety is the most important for the players, and MC is dangerous. It would be even a bigger blow if a top player Nole, Fed, Murray or Nadal suffer such a severe injury.

If any MS needs to remove, it's MC.

Gonzo_style
10-31-2012, 01:33 PM
Youtube had the video of Benneteau where he sprained his ankle and crushed his wrist. The video is horrifying so I'll not post it.

Safety is the most important for the players, and MC is dangerous. It would be even a bigger blow if a top player Nole, Fed, Murray or Nadal suffer such a severe injury.

If any MS needs to remove, it's MC.

Players was injured on every surfaces, its sad but what we can do? For example Raonic got really bad injury on grass, did you know that?

Feather
11-01-2012, 12:55 AM
Anyhow, from the choicest that the OP mentioned, I'd go with Miami. No need to have back to back Masters. But if we take into account the rest of the ATP 1000 events, I'd rather they take out Paris Masters and replace it with a Masters 1000 in grass, prior to Wimbledon.

I like that last part. I would have loved to see a Masters 1000 in Grass.

Feather
11-01-2012, 12:56 AM
Monte Carlo is a prestigious Masters, its very old also.

In my view the Masters 1000 with the least importance is Shanghai. I don't know what's it doing before an Indoor season..

I wish there was a grass Masters 1000 instead of Shanghai..

Sabratha
11-01-2012, 12:57 AM
I like that last part. I would have loved to see a Masters 1000 in Grass.
There wouldn't be enough time to rest up for Wimbledon then.

August
11-01-2012, 10:55 AM
First of all, as one Masters is non-mandatory, I think there should be only eight events in the Masters Series, or all Masters should be mandatory.

If one Masters would be downgraded, at least it shouldn't be Paris. Downgrading Paris would mean there would be no indoor Masters, and considering all slams are outdoors, I think there should be another important indoor hardcourt event besides WTF. Actually I think it's more important to have a Masters on indoor hardcourts than have a grass Masters, grass has a slam, indoors not.

But what Masters should be downgraded. The two events I'd miss the least would be Shanghai and Madrid. I prefer Madrid to Shanghai because it seems more meaningful, it's on of the pre-RG clay events, even if high altitude makes it different to RG, Rome, and Monte Carlo. But I just don't like Shanghai. In my opinion, most of post-USO events should be indoors, like they always mainly have been. Shanghai would be OK if it were indoors. But I think ATP wants to have a Masters in Asia, so for sure they wouldn't downgrade it.

But why do we have three pre-RG clay Masters and only two pre-USO hardcourt Masters? I think two clay Masters before RG would be enough. I'd like to downgrade Madrid, on the other hand ATP probably wants to have it so then I'd downgrade Monte Carlo rather than Rome. And I'd make Miami Har-Tru event. I'd love to see a big event on Har-Tru, and it'd be closer to red clay than hardcourts, that'd make sense before the red clay season.

Mustard
11-01-2012, 11:58 AM
Saying Monte Carlo is "non-mandatory" doesn't tell the whole picture. If you don't play Monte Carlo, it is mandatory to play one more ATP 500 tournament than if you do play Monte Carlo. Personally, I think the post-US Open period of tennis has been lacklustre for the last few years. A load of players just seem burned out and fed up, no pun intended.

Gorecki
11-03-2012, 12:23 PM
Saying Monte Carlo is "non-mandatory" doesn't tell the whole picture. If you don't play Monte Carlo, it is mandatory to play one more ATP 500 tournament than if you do play Monte Carlo. Personally, I think the post-US Open period of tennis has been lacklustre for the last few years. A load of players just seem burned out and fed up, no pun intended.

in simpler non **** words : just pick a cool atp 500 and win it instead of risking injury in the company of those worthless millionairs and their bumpy clay court! as a extra you avoid sharing locker room the simian boy!

dominikk1985
11-04-2012, 01:07 AM
get rid of one of the clay tournaments (monte, rome, madrid) because they are too close and one of the HC masters.

Instead make one indoor carpet and one grass masters.

way to much HC and clay and not enough grass and indoor carpet tournaments.

TMF
11-04-2012, 11:00 AM
get rid of one of the clay tournaments (monte, rome, madrid) because they are too close and one of the HC masters.

Instead make one indoor carpet and one grass masters.

way to much HC and clay and not enough grass and indoor carpet tournaments.

Wimbledon is more prestigious than RG, it makes no sense to have 3 clay MS and no grass MS. You certainly don't need to have 3 MS to prepare for the slam anyway.

Gonzo_style
11-04-2012, 11:04 AM
Wimbledon is more prestigious than RG, it makes no sense to have 3 clay MS and no grass MS. You certainly don't need to have 3 MS to prepare for the slam anyway.

3 MS on clay is fine, but i agree that there should be at least one MS tournament on grass.

fed_da_man
11-04-2012, 11:07 AM
Monte Carlo because Nadal doesnt need another slice of cake. He gets enough during the rest of the season.

President
11-04-2012, 11:10 AM
Saying Monte Carlo is "non-mandatory" doesn't tell the whole picture. If you don't play Monte Carlo, it is mandatory to play one more ATP 500 tournament than if you do play Monte Carlo. Personally, I think the post-US Open period of tennis has been lacklustre for the last few years. A load of players just seem burned out and fed up, no pun intended.

LOL it's obvious by "players" you mainly mean Nadal, he is the only top player to consistently suck *** at the end of the year.

PSNELKE
11-04-2012, 11:13 AM
Now just stop that pettifoggery.

It's obviously Monte Carlo, not because it's non mandatory, it's cause Nadal's dominating there.

gavna
11-04-2012, 11:39 AM
Dumping Shanghai is the clear choice.......this whole china is potential is crap....Monte Carlo has HISTORY on its side and is a classic event played on one of the greatest venues in tennis......

Bercy going to get moved to Feb 2013 you wqtch helped by all the BS tanking that took place this year and has always been a strong event.

db10s
11-04-2012, 11:40 AM
Definately one of the outdoor hard events. 5 masters events out of 9 on outdoor hard is excessive.

Miami should change surface to green clay to add more variety and flavour to the tour. That would actually be a pretty logical move given that har-tru is such a surface in Florida, and that the European red clay season swiftly follows.

I believe that the tournament directors there seriously considered that change in surface a few years ago, but opted against it unfortunately.

Too many slow hard court tournaments are bad for men's tennis and the health of the players.

They already have some har-tru courts at crandon park.... As long as they don't eliminate the red clay courts there.

Gonzo_style
11-04-2012, 11:53 AM
Dumping Shanghai is the clear choice.......this whole china is potential is crap...

Players didn't share your opinion.

6-1 6-3 6-0
11-04-2012, 12:01 PM
Get rid of Shanghai, Paris and the World Tour Finals.

veroniquem
11-04-2012, 12:02 PM
We need 1 master on grass. We only have 1 master indoor (Paris), let's keep it. Too many outdoor hard masters: we should make Shanghai a 500 and have only 1 master in the fall. (or get rid of Cincy, how many masters does 1 need in the US?? 3 is too much, 1 out of Miami, IW or Cincy could go.)

rainingaces
11-04-2012, 12:05 PM
Get rid of Shanghai, Paris and the World Tour Finals.

You never know they got rid of the blue clay and slowed down all the slams.

Achilles82
11-04-2012, 12:12 PM
What's with the three options? You already decided for us?


What they need to do is to make Miami and Indian Wells 1 week tournaments. That's No1.

No2, I see Paris as totally unnecessary. Season is too long, players are tired, nobody wants to play it from top players. It should be Asian swing, and WTF after that, and that's it.

Gonzo_style
11-04-2012, 12:14 PM
What's with the three options? You already decided for us?

.

Probably because they're in USA!

Achilles82
11-04-2012, 12:17 PM
So what. USA is big market.

USA is like a continent, it's almost as saying "european union". Indian Wells, Miami have great attendance every year, so does Cincy. It's very important for tennis popularity IMO.

Towser83
11-04-2012, 12:20 PM
Get rid of Shanghai, Paris and the World Tour Finals.

I think I finally figured out what the changing numbers in your avatars are. You're learning to count to ten. Keep up the good work!

We need 1 master on grass. We only have 1 master indoor (Paris), let's keep it. Too many outdoor hard masters: we should make Shanghai a 500 and have only 1 master in the fall. (or get rid of Cincy, how many masters does 1 need in the US?? 3 is too much, 1 out of Miami, IW or Cincy could go.)

Yeah get rid of the one fast hardcourt :roll:

gavna
11-04-2012, 12:47 PM
Players didn't share your opinion.

You do realize the whole "players favorite tourny" is a total sham......yes the players love the swag (free hotels....etc) and major butt kissing they get at this event. Look at Wimbledon - no secret that the players hate the way they are treated there (as Wimbledon is bigger than the game and for the most part players get the shaft - though it's much better now than in the past).
And many many players LOVE Monaco and on many interviews and in bios list it as one of their favs.

Monte Carlo, Rome, Canada(Rogers) all have history and have prestige because of that History.......Shanghai is all based on $$$$$$ and has no prestige other than its worth 1000pts.

Gonzo_style
11-04-2012, 12:58 PM
You do realize the whole "players favorite tourny" is a total sham

No i don't realize! And i believe more what players say than you, of course...

gavna
11-04-2012, 02:24 PM
No i don't realize! And i believe more what players say than you, of course...

And it's pretty common knowledge that he players love Monte Carlo and its a highlight on the calendar.....just look who plays it (and who's played and won in the years past).

Every tournament "claims" it's a player favorite - except for the most part the slams as they are what they are and really don't care what the players think.

Don't believe me just do your own research - no biggie.

Rock Strongo
11-04-2012, 02:51 PM
I say get rid of the injury-fest known as Monte Carlo, grow some cojones, reintroduce blue clay to Madrid, have one on indoor carpet and one here in Sweden. Where I live we have a shiny new indoor arena being built, sure it's capacity of 5000 is laughable, but seemingly no team is going to use it, so it's probably available!

tudwell
11-04-2012, 03:27 PM
Madrid is the worst and should go. I agree with people that we could switch some outdoor hard Masters events to grass to spice things up, but that would never happen.

vive le beau jeu !
11-06-2012, 08:10 AM
For me an ideal masters series line-up would be something like:

Indian Wells - Slow Hard Court
Miami - Green Clay (a much better and safer surface than a slow hard court, and this would add some nice surface variety to the tour)
Monte-Carlo - Red Clay
Barcelona - Red Clay (even decades before Nadal was on the tour this was still always a prestigious tournament and the true Spanish Open)
Rome - Red Clay
Montreal/Toronto - Fast Hard Court
Cincinnati - Fast Hard Court
Hamburg or any other major German city with a good indoor facility - Fast Indoor Carpet

So I would get rid of Madrid, Shanghai and Bercy. Shanghai is so poorly attended, and is yet another masters event on outdoor hard (the 5th of the year).

Bercy has been around since 1968, but really only became a big tournament in the late 80s. For many years, other indoor tournaments such as Philadelphia, Wembley, Stockholm, Milan, Sydney Indoor and Tokyo Indoor were all bigger and more important. Plus I don't think any one city should host both a slam and a masters event.

Madrid is just one big fiasco. The Madrid tennis grand prix tournament that was around from 1972-1994 was a nice event though, with best of 5 set finals and many elite clay court players playing there.

In an ideal world Halle and Queen's would also both be 500 events in the 2nd or a 3 week period between RG and Wimbledon (which thankfully we will get from 2015).
maybe too much (red) clay but not bad. such a calendar has variety and makes sense...

by the way, there was an indoor tournament in paris until 1982, but it was played at the pierre de coubertin statium (i think, but i'm not sure about it) and not at the POPB (palais omnisport de paris bercy), this facility being only built in 1984. the tournament is played at the POPB ("bercy") since 1986, becker being the first winner. not sure if we can consider it to be really the same event...