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dlam
11-10-2012, 03:16 PM
Just wondering if any one you have thought about the shape of the toss?

LeeD
11-10-2012, 03:36 PM
While most pros have J shaped toss arc, for us, it don't matter.
What matters is where the ball is located for which serve we decide to do, at the moment of contact.

SystemicAnomaly
11-10-2012, 10:32 PM
The tossed (or hit) ball follows a projectile motion trajectory -- the trajectories, for the most part, are all parabolas. Note that the straight line (up & down) is a special case of the parabola. If the launch angle it precisely 90 degrees (perpendicular to the ground), then the trajectory will be a straight line (up & down) assuming that the wind is not a significant factor.

Try if for yourself with the following java simulation of projectile motion. If you move the middle slider control all the way to the right, then the launch angle is 90 degrees.

http://www.geogebra.org/en/upload/files/nikenuke/projectile06d.html

NLBwell
11-11-2012, 08:27 AM
My serve toss shape is pretty random.

Frankauc
11-11-2012, 08:52 AM
somebody told me to use the j shape toss, and i've found that it helps me with core and shoulders rotation

SystemicAnomaly
11-11-2012, 12:13 PM
Just wondering if any one you have thought about the shape of the toss? :confused::confused:

It occurs to me that we may be talking about 2 different things in this thread. I was referring to the trajectory of the ball after release. It appears that LeeD and others are referring to the path of the hand/arm that tosses the ball.

Perhaps the OP can clarify which of these he/she means. :confused::confused:

dlam
11-11-2012, 01:12 PM
:confused::confused:

It occurs to me that we may be talking about 2 different things in this thread. I was referring to the trajectory of the ball after release. It appears that LeeD and others are referring to the path of the hand/arm that tosses the ball.

Perhaps the OP can clarify which of these he/she means. :confused::confused:

I am referring to the trajectory
What is a J toss?

SystemicAnomaly
11-11-2012, 01:47 PM
I believe that the J-toss refers to the motion of the tossing hand (and arm). Renowned coach, Vic Braden, advocated this tossing motion back in the 70s and 80s. I learned it from his younger brother, Dan Braden (http://mytown.mercurynews.com/archives/saratoganews/09.27.00/obit-0039.html), in the late 70s.

The motion of the hand describes/simulates the letter J. The hand starts extended out toward the net. It moves downward and inward (closer to the body). As the hand reaches its lowest point, it hooks back upward (and often slightly forward) -- thus making the letter J. With the J-toss, the arm often lifted parallel to the baseline (or somewhat parallel).
.

3fees
11-11-2012, 06:52 PM
Depends on the serve.

:)

SystemicAnomaly
11-13-2012, 04:55 AM
To my knowledge, elite servers never employ a toss that rises and falls in a straight line (for either their 1st or 2nd serves) -- they always employ a toss with an arc. Many tosses that ppl assume are straight are, in fact, not.

While the Sampras toss does not seem to have quite as much arc as the Federer toss, the gif below from the old Operation Doubles web site shows that it had quite a bit of arc:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071023184108/www.operationdoubles.com/sampras_serve3.gif
http://web.archive.org/web/20071023184108/www.operationdoubles.com/sampras_serve3.gif
click on the link if the image above does not appear

5263
11-13-2012, 04:56 AM
I use the J toss and have to give Julian some credit on that.

5263
11-13-2012, 05:00 AM
I believe that the J-toss refers to the motion of the tossing hand (and arm). Renowned coach, Vic Braden, advocated this tossing motion back in the 70s and 80s. I learned it from his younger brother, Dan Braden (http://mytown.mercurynews.com/archives/saratoganews/09.27.00/obit-0039.html), in the late 70s.

The motion of the hand describes/simulates the letter J. The hand starts extended out toward the net. It moves downward and inward (closer to the body). As the hand reaches its lowest point, it hooks back upward (and often slightly forward) -- thus making the letter J. With the J-toss, the arm often lifted paralell to the baseline (or somewhat parallel).
.

thanks,
I was thinking the J referred to the path of the ball like and upside down J,
which I like to reference since the ball path is the focus here and you don't
have to do a J with the hand to make it work like this.
None the less, good to know the proper reference history.
thanks

SystemicAnomaly
11-13-2012, 05:38 AM
^ Yeah, I think that CharlieF or someone else on these message boards changed the meaning of the term a while back. I'm fairly certain that Vic Braden coined the term, J toss, more than 35 years ago. I agree that a decent toss can be executed with or w/o the J motion of the tossing hand.


.

slowfox
11-14-2012, 12:00 AM
I was thinking the upside down J too. The trajectory will arc towards your tossing arm's shoulder. You make contact before the J becomes a U... haha

dlam
11-14-2012, 09:43 AM
Ok thanks sysTem
Being more consistent with my serve is big difference between winning and losing for me
I'll try J toss for the deuce side
I am thinking my trajectory are always some form of parabola and trying to make it straight up and down makes me more inconsistent

charliefedererer
11-14-2012, 07:07 PM
^ Yeah, I think that CharlieF or someone else on these message boards changed the meaning of the term a while back. I'm fairly certain that Vic Braden coined the term, J toss, more than 35 years ago. I agree that a decent toss can be executed with or w/o the J motion of the tossing hand.


.

I have to admit that I am guilty of promoting the idea that the J toss referred to the inverted J path (parabolic curve) of the ball as a result of the toss after it left the hand.

https://sites.google.com/site/anakamilledianamario/ProjectileMotion01-large.gif

I had picked up the idea from someone's post here showing the J toss of Sampras using the same short video clip you just posted. http://web.archive.org/web/20071023184108/www.operationdoubles.com/sampras_serve3.gif

In it it is hard to see the hand/arm motion leading up to ball release in this clip taken from the front, but the inverted J, or parabolic path of the ball is quite apparent.

Thanks for the correction that the term was used by Vic Braden for the arm motion going back many years ago.

charliefedererer
11-14-2012, 07:16 PM
http://www.samprasfanz.com/gallery/2001/2001stuttgart/r107serve.jpg

SA, would you agree your description of the J toss matches up with the above pictures this way?

"The motion of the hand describes/simulates the letter J.
The hand starts extended out toward the net.(not shown in the above pics.)
It moves downward and inward (closer to the body). (pic 1)
As the hand reaches its lowest point (pic 1), it hooks back upward (and often slightly forward) (pics 2,3,4) -- thus making the letter J.
With the J-toss, the arm often lifted parallel to the baseline (or somewhat parallel)."

charliefedererer
11-14-2012, 07:33 PM
Ok thanks sysTem
Being more consistent with my serve is big difference between winning and losing for me
I'll try J toss for the deuce side
I am thinking my trajectory are always some form of parabola and trying to make it straight up and down makes me more inconsistent

You may find the following video describing lifting the arm parallel to the baseline helpful:
Federer Murray Haas & more ball toss common threads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIF-UaRUd6k&feature=related
(Tossing parallel to the baseline allows you to rotate away from the court while you are tossing, rather than tossing and then hurrying to rotate your shoulders only after you toss, so you won't feel hurried to coil your shoulders. Notice in the above pics of Sampras that by the time he releases the ball (pic 5) he has already coiled his shoulders quite a bit, even though he continues to coil even a little bit more after ball release to pic 8 where he has his back pointed at the court he is serving into.)


Notice that in the overhead view of Sampras in my post above, on his first serve he does not keep his arm exactly parallel to the baseline, but only approximately so.

In order to get the ball to go slightly into the court for a first serve, the ball is held above Pete's rear foot when the ball is lowest (pic 1), and as the arm is raised (pic 2) the arm is brought slightly into the court [now the ball is between Pete's feet], and by the time the ball is released in pic 4, the ball has been brought forward to be over Pete's front foot.
If you don't slightly swing your arm forward, the ball would not move out into the court, where most prefer to contact the ball on their first serve.
(On the other hand, bringing your hand/arm straight up in between your feet would result in the ball coming down over your head, where many prefer to place the ball for their second serve.)