PDA

View Full Version : Shbh, please critique


njboy
11-17-2012, 05:27 PM
Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZA1acEUiY8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Thanks a lot.

I reminded me taking high loop take back and preparing earlier today and recorded a new video. Please take a look if little bit better. Many many thanks.

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrTOHwfRmzs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

RF20Lennon
11-17-2012, 05:30 PM
Youre accelerating way too soon in a hurried motion! and your feet are no positioned to hit the shot. Work on footwork and take back the racket sooner and pace the racket head speed. But you have excellent Explosion!!!!

Chas Tennis
11-17-2012, 09:39 PM
I see one thing clearly different from what I have noticed in videos of top pro players - the height that your racket attains in the backswing is much lower than theirs.

For example, look at racket face height and upper arm height the Heinen's and Federer's backhands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqBEErW0vTA

In these videos the racket is above the head just prior to the downward & forward swing.

In your stroke, the racket is about at your waist height.

In my opinion, there is probably a biomechanical advantage for getting the upper arm (humerus) up somewhat - it stretches the largest muscle attached to the arm, the lat. Forehand too.....

njboy
11-18-2012, 05:01 AM
I see one thing clearly different from what I have noticed in videos of top pro players - the height that your racket attains in the backswing is much lower than theirs.

For example, look at racket face height and upper arm height the Heinen's and Federer's backhands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqBEErW0vTA

In these videos the racket is above the head just prior to the downward & forward swing.

In your stroke, the racket is about at your waist height.

In my opinion, there is probably a biomechanical advantage for getting the upper arm (humerus) up somewhat - it stretches the largest muscle attached to the arm, the lat. Forehand too.....
i tried to fix long time ago but no progress. Any tricks?

njboy
11-18-2012, 05:02 AM
Youre accelerating way too soon in a hurried motion! and your feet are no positioned to hit the shot. Work on footwork and take back the racket sooner and pace the racket head speed. But you have excellent Explosion!!!!
When do I need take tha raq back?

zapvor
11-18-2012, 08:45 AM
Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZA1acEUiY8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Thanks a lot.

your mechanics look pretty good. each one is about the same. but your timing is the issue. you are making contact a tad late so your body is like going off to the side. try to make contact so your body is more forward, not to the side.i have the same issue with timing

rkelley
11-18-2012, 08:51 AM
There are some good things in your bh. You're getting your shoulders turned and you're stepping into the ball. This is good, but overall it's missing some key things.

The biggest thing I noticed was that your hitting structure (the angles and relative position of your arm, racquet, and body) is incorrect at contact. Specifically, your arm and racquet form almost a line. You're grip appears to have your index knuckle on bevel 8, and it seems like you're flexing your wrist to accelerate the racquet into the ball. What you want is for your arm and racquet to form a right angle at contact, not a line. You want your wrist to supinate to accelerate the racquet into and across the back of the ball.

On foot work and general position, on many shots you back up right before you hit in order to take the ball as it's falling. This is a really bad habit to get into. Generally, as much as you can you want to stand your ground or move into the ball, not back up to take the ball in a preferred place. As you're learning a shot I can understand why you don't want to take balls on the rise, but for now just set-up a little further back so you can always be moving into the ball.

Here are two really good videos on ts 1hbh. I'd really advise thinking in terms of starting over. As I said you have some good aspects to your bh, but it has some serious flaws. You'd be better off just starting from scratch and learn the proper motion. While you're at it, I'd go with a bit more conservative grip. Index knuckle bevel 1. It will help promote the correct hitting structure as you rebuild.

Good luck.

#1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbpzee_YU8Y&feature=relmfu

#2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4Cb90HDjig&list=UULRovY8xL4aPnjTI8Xzp09Q&index=8&feature=plcp


And if you're interested in the slice bh, here's good video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuqkkWtq-Lk

njboy
11-18-2012, 09:53 AM
your mechanics look pretty good. each one is about the same. but your timing is the issue. you are making contact a tad late so your body is like going off to the side. try to make contact so your body is more forward, not to the side.i have the same issue with timing
i feel the same thing. I am late and rush to hit the ball at most of time.

njboy
11-18-2012, 09:56 AM
There are some good things in your bh. You're getting your shoulders turned and you're stepping into the ball. This is good, but overall it's missing some key things.

The biggest thing I noticed was that your hitting structure (the angles and relative position of your arm, racquet, and body) is incorrect at contact. Specifically, your arm and racquet form almost a line. You're grip appears to have your index knuckle on bevel 8, and it seems like you're flexing your wrist to accelerate the racquet into the ball. What you want is for your arm and racquet to form a right angle at contact, not a line. You want your wrist to supinate to accelerate the racquet into and across the back of the ball.

On foot work and general position, on many shots you back up right before you hit in order to take the ball as it's falling. This is a really bad habit to get into. Generally, as much as you can you want to stand your ground or move into the ball, not back up to take the ball in a preferred place. As you're learning a shot I can understand why you don't want to take balls on the rise, but for now just set-up a little further back so you can always be moving into the ball.

Here are two really good videos on ts 1hbh. I'd really advise thinking in terms of starting over. As I said you have some good aspects to your bh, but it has some serious flaws. You'd be better off just starting from scratch and learn the proper motion. While you're at it, I'd go with a bit more conservative grip. Index knuckle bevel 1. It will help promote the correct hitting structure as you rebuild.

Good luck.

#1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbpzee_YU8Y&feature=relmfu

#2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4Cb90HDjig&list=UULRovY8xL4aPnjTI8Xzp09Q&index=8&feature=plcp


And if you're interested in the slice bh, here's good video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuqkkWtq-Lk

I have played many years so starting over is not easy because the years bad habit.
My grip is between 1 and 8 and I am short.

I feel the angle of raq and my arm is roughly 90 degree but I have to look the image at contact point.

rkelley
11-18-2012, 10:22 AM
I have played many years so starting over is not easy because the years bad habit.
My grip is between 1 and 8 and I am short.

I feel the angle of raq and my arm is roughly 90 degree but I have to look the image at contact point.

Look at the video. Your arm and racquet are basically in line at contact. Your form is very consistent.

I understand that starting over isn't easy. I rebuilt my fh from a traditional, flatish old school fh (decent shot) to a modern fh. It took time and practice. But if you care enough to post a video, then you obviously care. Perhaps saying that you need to start over is overstating it a bit, but there are significant flaws in your basic form that will prevent you from getting to a high level bh. That's too bad because there are a lot of good things about how your hitting as well.

But that basic problem of the hitting structure is not a tweak, it's a pretty major fix. There are other issues as well. Watch the videos in the link. That guy knows what he's talking about regarding a 1hbh.

njboy
11-18-2012, 10:27 AM
Look at the video. Your arm and racquet are basically in line at contact. Your form is very consistent.

I understand that starting over isn't easy. I rebuilt my fh from a traditional, flatish old school fh (decent shot) to a modern fh. It took time and practice. But if you care enough to post a video, then you obviously care. Perhaps saying that you need to start over is overstating it a bit, but there are significant flaws in your basic form that will prevent you from getting to a high level bh. That's too bad because there are a lot of good things about how your hitting as well.

But that basic problem of the hitting structure is not a tweak, it's a pretty major fix. There are other issues as well. Watch the videos in the link. That guy knows what he's talking about regarding a 1hbh.
I will load the video into video edit tool and watch it frame by frame.

And I also recorded a new video today. Thank you again.

ShoeShiner
11-18-2012, 10:57 AM
Your BH stroke is fine for me. Many club players have 1HBH as good as you have.
But if you want some comments, in my opinions are :
✺ You should turn your shoulders more, some instructor said turn your shoulders until you can show your back to the opponent. This will general more power in swing for 1HBH.
✺ Practicing by shadow swing in front of a mirror while imagining the ball coming, when the ball bounces you swing, may be help your late swing.

Cheetah
11-18-2012, 11:22 AM
There's a hitch in your swing. you stop the racquet moving at the end of the backswing and then lower it before starting the forward swing. This is the same as just having a low takeback.

You're not rotating your torso enough. back has to face net more.
Not bending your knees enough.
Position of raquet just before forward swing is not correct. You have the head of the racquet pointing to the back fence. Should be pointing to right side fence.

Stance should be more closed. Not neutral.
Takeback is too stiff and forced. have to relax.
contact point is not far enough out in front.
Left arm should be used for balance at the end of swing by moving in opposite direction. Not dangling around in front of your body.
sometimes the hand is too far above the ball at contact which is why you have that high follow through. Should be more at the same level as the ball at contact. This is making your swing path 'incorrect'. and not enough drive through the ball. The way you contact makes it so you will have a hard time imparting ulnar deviation on the ball and impossible to hit an i/o bh and also you won't be able to have a variety of spins. It will be difficult to hit a flat drive and then a looping cc bh.
You are leaning back at contact.
you are swinging only with the arm instead of using legs/torso/shoulders to swing the racquet.

everything else looks good.

mad dog1
11-18-2012, 11:58 AM
^^ yep, cheetah's advice is right on.

njboy
11-18-2012, 01:37 PM
There's a hitch in your swing. you stop the racquet moving at the end of the backswing and then lower it before starting the forward swing. This is the same as just having a low takeback.

You're not rotating your torso enough. back has to face net more.
Not bending your knees enough.
Position of raquet just before forward swing is not correct. You have the head of the racquet pointing to the back fence. Should be pointing to right side fence.

Stance should be more closed. Not neutral.
Takeback is too stiff and forced. have to relax.
contact point is not far enough out in front.
Left arm should be used for balance at the end of swing by moving in opposite direction. Not dangling around in front of your body.
sometimes the hand is too far above the ball at contact which is why you have that high follow through. Should be more at the same level as the ball at contact. This is making your swing path 'incorrect'. and not enough drive through the ball. The way you contact makes it so you will have a hard time imparting ulnar deviation on the ball and impossible to hit an i/o bh and also you won't be able to have a variety of spins. It will be difficult to hit a flat drive and then a looping cc bh.
You are leaning back at contact.
you are swinging only with the arm instead of using legs/torso/shoulders to swing the racquet.

everything else looks good.

3 months ago you gave me lot of suggestions. Did u see any improvement?

Cheetah
11-18-2012, 01:41 PM
3 months ago you gave me lot of suggestions. Did u see any improvement?

Do you see any improvement?

njboy
11-18-2012, 01:45 PM
Do you see any improvement?
From the results of view, yes, less ue
But not sure the stroke itself.

Cheetah
11-18-2012, 01:52 PM
old vid link?

LeeD
11-18-2012, 02:04 PM
I see a 3.0 to weak 3.5 1hbh that is very INflexible, can only hit lower thigh high balls, cannot create angles or pace, and hit with a mixture of sidespin and top (that's the GOOD part).
The player might not be able to handle various spins and pace of the incoming balls, especially a mixture of topspin and hard slice.

njboy
11-18-2012, 02:42 PM
I see a 3.0 to weak 3.5 1hbh that is very INflexible, can only hit lower thigh high balls, cannot create angles or pace, and hit with a mixture of sidespin and top (that's the GOOD part).
The player might not be able to handle various spins and pace of the incoming balls, especially a mixture of topspin and hard slice.
So need improve.

njboy
11-18-2012, 02:48 PM
old vid link?

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhhu4mnrsTM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

LeeD
11-18-2012, 02:51 PM
You ARE improving.
One of the keys to improving is to hit with people, so you get both backhands and forehands, because it's YOUR MOVEMENT that ultimately determines how well you hit your backhands.
Static fed balls are just the first of a series of steps to learn to hit groundies. Your ball recognition, spin recognition, pace, height, depth, off a real racket is much harder to learn, and takes 10 times the length of time to learn as the basic stroke itself.
You are showing only what a first year player can do once he figures out his grip. Now show us where you're really at.

njboy
11-18-2012, 02:57 PM
You ARE improving.
One of the keys to improving is to hit with people, so you get both backhands and forehands, because it's YOUR MOVEMENT that ultimately determines how well you hit your backhands.
Static fed balls are just the first of a series of steps to learn to hit groundies. Your ball recognition, spin recognition, pace, height, depth, off a real racket is much harder to learn, and takes 10 times the length of time to learn as the basic stroke itself.
You are showing only what a first year player can do once he figures out his grip. Now show us where you're really at.
Totally agree.
I hit with ppl at weekday, most of them. But due to my week shbh, they rally to my forehand side or I run around to hit fh. So I bought a machine to practice my shbh at weekend.

LeeD
11-18-2012, 03:00 PM
Best way to guide your partner's shots is to step over to your right after you hit the ball, so your backhand side is wide open, and bigger than your forehand side. If they continue to hit to your forehand, keep moving to your right, until you're standing in the alley.
Basic tenet of just hitting is to hit up near the middle, so you moving over to your forehand side should allow you to hit backhands whenever you choose.

njboy
11-18-2012, 03:04 PM
Best way to guide your partner's shots is to step over to your right after you hit the ball, so your backhand side is wide open, and bigger than your forehand side. If they continue to hit to your forehand, keep moving to your right, until you're standing in the alley.
Basic tenet of just hitting is to hit up near the middle, so you moving over to your forehand side should allow you to hit backhands whenever you choose.

But my fh is better than my shbh, so my shbh can not rally good with my partners. We only have like 40 minutes to rally. Keep missing is not fun at all.
We rally at lunch time so no warmup at all.

LeeD
11-18-2012, 03:12 PM
If you only have 40 minutes, it's more important to work on what you can't do as opposed to what you already CAN do.
Hit your 1hbh. Tell your partner you're gonna hit the first 3 long and hard, and you will settle in immediately after.
If you can't settle in, your form is suspect.

Cheetah
11-18-2012, 03:15 PM
i like old style better. u had a closed stance and more rotation. better weight transfer and less leaning back. seemed more powerful. sounded better.

something is weird the way you hold the racquet with the left hand. looks like your racquet weighs 20lbs

njboy
11-18-2012, 03:17 PM
If you only have 40 minutes, it's more important to work on what you can't do as opposed to what you already CAN do.
Hit your 1hbh. Tell your partner you're gonna hit the first 3 long and hard, and you will settle in immediately after.
If you can't settle in, your form is suspect.
Good idea.

njboy
11-18-2012, 03:19 PM
i like old style better. u had a closed stance and more rotation and not so much upswing. seemed more powerful. sounded better.

Pace wise, both are same.

The biggest issue I want to fix is that I can not handle higher balls, even higher than waist but lower than shoulder.

LeeD
11-18-2012, 03:22 PM
That's the first thing I saw, because your swing is inflexible, and you're hitting with a ball machine.
One thing you can adopt is to turn more sideways on higher balls, fully closing your stance, and hitting crosscourt. That allows your racket to close off as much as you can.
On lower balls align your feet as you do now.
I'd rather stand more upright, use a stronger grip, and hit the ball out in front earlier. On shots lower than knee high, either slice or block it flat. Modern tennis forces you to hit many shoulder high backhands, and that's the height of ball you need to practice hitting against.

Cheetah
11-18-2012, 03:27 PM
Pace wise, both are same.

The biggest issue I want to fix is that I can not handle higher balls, even higher than waist but lower than shoulder.

not sure how pace could be same w/ new swing. doesn't look possible. unless you are swinging much harder w/ new form.
higher balls would be better handled w/ old form also. and more variety and more spin.

LeeD
11-18-2012, 03:31 PM
It appears, if you just stand up taller with better posture, and take your racketback at shoulder level or higher, you would be able to hit higher topspin backhands. You set up too low, AND you bend over at the waist.

TennisCJC
11-18-2012, 04:33 PM
Your backswing is not smooth. You take the racket back initially with the head of the racket up above the hands. Then it drops and slows; and then you hit the ball. Your initial prep is like Federer or Henin with the racket head pretty high almost directly above the hands. But, you drop the racket head and then pause and then you actually start your real swing from a fairly low position.

Either: 1. Watch Fed and Henin and start your loop from the high position like they do, or 2. get rid of the high take back - take it back a lot lower and then start a continuous loop from there.

Go to YouTube and watch Fed and Henin backhand videos. They swing from the high position. You go back high, drop it low, stop and then swing.

Nothing wrong with taking it back lower if you want to go that route. Look at Lendl in this video - he does not **** his wrist and put the racket head way above his hands in the prep. This is a much simplier prep and stroke. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQIrH-wfO6k

mad dog1
11-18-2012, 08:12 PM
3 months ago you gave me lot of suggestions. Did u see any improvement?

yeah, there's definitely some improvement. you looked very awkward, uncomfortable, and just very green to the sport in the 1st video (timing really off). while your technique still has room for alot of improvement, you look a more comfortable and you are getting some better contact due to better timing and ball anticipation off the bounce.

keep at it. the 1hbh takes time to get right.

mad dog1
11-18-2012, 08:20 PM
Pace wise, both are same.

The biggest issue I want to fix is that I can not handle higher balls, even higher than waist but lower than shoulder.

shoulder high balls give lots of players fits so just keep at it. watch lock n roll video, shadow swing in front of a mirror, go to the court practice, go home. repeat.

rkelley
11-18-2012, 08:44 PM
njboy, IMO until you fix the problem with your racquet position at contact (racquet in line with the arm), working on other areas like high balls is unlikely to be fruitful.

Cheetah, are you seeing the straight arm/racquet at contact? Cheetah has a great one hander so he's a good source. Also look at those videos in the link.

Cheetah
11-18-2012, 08:58 PM
Cheetah, are you seeing the straight arm/racquet at contact?

What do you mean exactly? Are you referring to the way the racquet and arm make a straight line at contact instead of the 'L' shape? or something else?

rkelley
11-18-2012, 10:03 PM
What do you mean exactly? Are you referring to the way the racquet and arm make a straight line at contact instead of the 'L' shape? or something else?

Straight line at contact. That's what I'm seeing when I look at the video, but admittedly I'm just pausing the Youtube clip, nothing fancy. Do you see the same thing?

Cheetah
11-18-2012, 10:42 PM
has a slight bend on most contacts. sometimes more straight. contact point is inconsistent. usually not far enough out in front. hand is too high above racquet head which lends to that straight look. front leg never bends. no bend no power.

too much hunching over and leaning back. base is not stable which contributes to the unbalance after the shot. wiggling all over the place after the hit.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2813/111xir.jpg

Gasquet looks a little better -
preparation, stance, balance, stable base, posture, trunk rotation contact point, racquet angle, wrist angle, weight transfer, takeback, swing path, leverage, knee bend...,
http://images.supersport.com/Richard-Gasquet-backhand-110815-bg.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQRqS78s2q6e4l0tmncqoXUiIIzef88t L7bwtji-mVdjT46ENhM
http://0.tqn.com/d/tennis/1/0/M/F/richard-gasquet-backhand-07.jpg

njboy
11-19-2012, 03:47 AM
has a slight bend on most contacts. sometimes more straight. contact point is inconsistent. usually not far enough out in front. hand is too high above racquet head which lends to that straight look. front leg never bends. no bend no power.

too much hunching over and leaning back. base is not stable which contributes to the unbalance after the shot. wiggling all over the place after the hit.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2813/111xir.jpg

Gasquet looks a little better -
preparation, stance, balance, stable base, posture, trunk rotation contact point, racquet angle, wrist angle, weight transfer, takeback, swing path, leverage, knee bend...,
http://images.supersport.com/Richard-Gasquet-backhand-110815-bg.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQRqS78s2q6e4l0tmncqoXUiIIzef88t L7bwtji-mVdjT46ENhM
http://0.tqn.com/d/tennis/1/0/M/F/richard-gasquet-backhand-07.jpg


So actually benting the knee is the solution?

JohnB
11-19-2012, 06:48 AM
I can't judge well enough from the video, but I think the problem is in the grip. If you take a look at this picture http://www.google.nl/imgres?start=368&hl=nl&sa=X&biw=1366&bih=540&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=ssGZGUjncnAQTM:&imgrefurl=http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php%3Fp%3D6558892&docid=hkYG7aOHxDfmGM&imgurl=http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Editor/Img/ATP-Tennis-img3968.jpg&w=585&h=390&ei=bFKqUMOoG-qO0AXcxYCYAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=99&vpy=125&dur=127&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=138&ty=120&sig=108607796205853290609&page=14&tbnh=137&tbnw=196&ndsp=30&ved=1t:429,r:84,s:300,i:256 and take a look at the position of the thumb. The base of the thumb is on the index finger. If you do this, your angle between your racket and wrist will likely be more towards 90 degrees.

OHBH
11-19-2012, 07:40 AM
I see you are using an old prostaff, is it perhaps too heavy for you as you seem to not be able to take a full cut at the ball. Something a little lighter and maneuverable would probably improve your backhand a lot, though it may affect your other strokes as well. For me a racket too heavy makes the backhand suffer but too light and the forehand begins to suffer. you need to find just the right balance.

Cheetah
11-19-2012, 08:29 AM
So actually benting the knee is the solution?

the solution is preparation, stance, balance, stable base, posture, trunk rotation, contact point, racquet angle, wrist angle, weight transfer, takeback, swing path, leverage, knee bend...,

mad dog1
11-19-2012, 11:12 AM
So actually benting the knee is the solution?

the solution is preparation, stance, balance, stable base, posture, trunk rotation, contact point, racquet angle, wrist angle, weight transfer, takeback, swing path, leverage, knee bend...,

njboy, the solution really is as simple as Cheetah has comprehensively provided. unfortunately correct execution is much more complicated because you have to connect all of the components together in the right sequence. you have to work on improvement a little bit at a time. just keep at it and your backhand will improve. refer back to the lockandroll instructional video often as you work on your bh.

gmatheis
11-19-2012, 11:48 AM
Im not sure if I can explain this right but I'll try.
It looks to me like you are hitting with your racket almost vertical rather than horizontal.

Another way to describe it is that you are drawing your racket across the ball from bottom to top of the racket face instead of from right to left side of the racket face. so your cross strings are now the ones imparting spin onto the ball rather than your mains.

njboy
11-19-2012, 03:59 PM
njboy, the solution really is as simple as Cheetah has comprehensively provided. unfortunately correct execution is much more complicated because you have to connect all of the components together in the right sequence. you have to work on improvement a little bit at a time. just keep at it and your backhand will improve. refer back to the lockandroll instructional video often as you work on your bh.
So complicated, I am wondering if I need to switch:)