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bkpr
11-30-2012, 11:48 AM
Hello.

I've recently begun hitting with a guy who's a level or so better than me. He hits with a fair bit of heat and when I ask him about it he says he snaps his wrist. When I pushed further he told me he sort of 'pushes' his wrist forward, i.e., he literally snaps his own wrist in conjunction with his kinetic chain, rather than let the natural path and speed of the racquet snap it.

Does this seem right?

Whenever I've tried to get more wrist snap action I've always used my body + arm to fling it around while my wrist is pretty limp, if you know what I mean. When reading about snapping the wrist I always assumed this was the way to do it. I've never physically tried to get my wrist snapping using my own muscles. Doing it the limp way results in very inconsistent placement and increased framings because for me, I'm not guiding my hand with my wrist muscles.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

LeeD
11-30-2012, 11:53 AM
He is a better tennis player than you, just like DJ is.
He doesn't know what he's talking about, just like DJ.
Both advocate snapping the wrist.
Photos and vids prove their both wrong.
They are good/great players. They are poor analyists of their technique.

charliefedererer
11-30-2012, 12:12 PM
LeeD is right ... as usual.

Trying to snap your wrist will lead to wrist and arm problems.

It sounds like you are already doing the right thing.

Pat Dougherty, the Bollettieri Academy "Serve Doctor" shows the whole arm is turning, but the wrist is kept comfortably in the same position throughout the stroke.
(You don't need the Leverage Belt to do this, so don't buy it.)
Leverage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J74XpkGKyuc

bkpr
11-30-2012, 01:02 PM
LeeD is right ... as usual.

Obviously it's just me, but I have absolutely no idea what LeeD is talking about :confused: Who id DJ?

Thanks for the link. In the video there is essentially no wrist 'snapping' happening at all, it's more of a side movement or rotation, which after doing a few shadow strokes, feels quite natural. Trying to snap the wrist as I described tires out the top of my hand quickly. I guess I don't snap the wrist the way I thought I did, and maybe my partner thinks he's snapping when he's really rotating.

I'll keep that video in mind when I'm hitting next.
Thanks for your advice.

LeeD
11-30-2012, 01:07 PM
"who is DJ".....
I love it. Who is the arguably #1 player on the ATP tour? Who also has interview/instruction vids of him saying he flicks his wrists on almost every shot.
BorisBecker, I hope you remember the name, says the same thing in his vids.
Vids of both players show they don't flick their wrists at all. The use the wrist as a hinge, they twist their arms with their shoulder muscles, but they don't actively use their forearm muscles to bend their wrists.

bkpr
11-30-2012, 01:33 PM
I originally thought it was Djokovic, but the 'initials' threw me off :)
I have seen Djoker talk about his wrist snapping, heh.

sureshs
11-30-2012, 01:35 PM
Obviously it's just me, but I have absolutely no idea what LeeD is talking about :confused: Who id DJ?


He is losing his mind and mixing up threads

LeeD
11-30-2012, 01:41 PM
Yet still, the idea get's across correctly and in time. Isn't that wierd?
See post #6.
I cannot possibly lose something I never had in the first place.
As for mixing threads, you bet! The computer does that for me.

boramiNYC
11-30-2012, 03:04 PM
when a better coordinated person says he snaps the wrist. a worse coordinated person tries to snap the wrist. these two are completely different wrist snapping. that's all I'm gonna say.

LeeD
11-30-2012, 03:19 PM
DJ and Becker came from the same tennis learning school.

dominikk1985
11-30-2012, 04:09 PM
He is a better tennis player than you, just like DJ is.
He doesn't know what he's talking about, just like DJ.
Both advocate snapping the wrist.
Photos and vids prove their both wrong.
They are good/great players. They are poor analyists of their technique.

Good post. many pro athletes don't really know about technique and act instinctively. they do have strong believes of course and not just play somehow (anyone would say I bend my knees and turn my shoulders) but they usually don't know much about the details. I'm pretty sure federer doesn't know a lot pronation, stretch shortening cycle or the kinematic chain.

the same is true for baseball players. any coach till recently teaches to swing down and get extended. however slow motion of high level players showed that they actually slightly uppercut and hit the ball with bent arms.

but if you ask A-rod, pujols or bonds what they do anyone of them says he swings down. a few years ago they showed bonds a video and he was really surprised he swung up because he had a strong belief that he would swing down.

you don't need to understand the swing when you have the correct FEEL but as a coach some physics understanding certainly is not a bad idea.

charliefedererer
11-30-2012, 06:21 PM
Obviously it's just me, but I have absolutely no idea what LeeD is talking about :confused: Who id DJ?

Thanks for the link. In the video there is essentially no wrist 'snapping' happening at all, it's more of a side movement or rotation, which after doing a few shadow strokes, feels quite natural. Trying to snap the wrist as I described tires out the top of my hand quickly. I guess I don't snap the wrist the way I thought I did, and maybe my partner thinks he's snapping when he's really rotating.

I'll keep that video in mind when I'm hitting next.
Thanks for your advice.

I'm glad you liked the video and seem to have a good idea what the motion actually is.

I like you came up with your own terminology - "side movement", "rotation".


Interestingly Jim McLennan calls this movement "forearm rotation" when speaking about it in the serve.
The Pete Sampras Snap http://www.essentialtennisinstruction.com/the-pete-sampras-snap/


Probably the most common term you will hear for this term is "pronation".

Bruce Elliot and Brian Gordon, Ph.D. did the pioneering work to show that internal rotation at the shoulder is responsible for the whole arm rotating - it is not just the wrist or forearm - and the main forces that cause that whole arm rotation come from the shoulder area.

Obviously as the whole arm rotates, the forearm and wrist does so as well.
This probably explains why some emphasize the feeling that it is the wrist that is "snapping" around, while others feel the forearm rotation is dominant - but the whole arm is rotating.

rk_sports
11-30-2012, 06:24 PM
Good post. many pro athletes don't really know about technique and act instinctively. they do have strong believes of course and not just play somehow (anyone would say I bend my knees and turn my shoulders) but they usually don't know much about the details. I'm pretty sure federer doesn't know a lot pronation, stretch shortening cycle or the kinematic chain.

the same is true for baseball players. any coach till recently teaches to swing down and get extended. however slow motion of high level players showed that they actually slightly uppercut and hit the ball with bent arms.

but if you ask A-rod, pujols or bonds what they do anyone of them says he swings down. a few years ago they showed bonds a video and he was really surprised he swung up because he had a strong belief that he would swing down.

you don't need to understand the swing when you have the correct FEEL but as a coach some physics understanding certainly is not a bad idea.

very interesting!!! this will make you re-think whenever great players [NOT trained COACHES] talk technique :confused:

tenniswhisperer
12-01-2012, 05:11 AM
This should make the "snap" issue clearer. The issue to focus on is to relax the wrist so that it can perform it's duty naturally. Hope this helps


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9ic0EW8Jhc&feature=plcp

JohnB
12-01-2012, 07:09 AM
This should make the "snap" issue clearer. The issue to focus on is to relax the wrist so that it can perform it's duty naturally. Hope this helps


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9ic0EW8Jhc&feature=plcp

Good link!!

kiteboard
12-01-2012, 09:24 AM
I'm glad you liked the video and seem to have a good idea what the motion actually is.

I like you came up with your own terminology - "side movement", "rotation".


Interestingly Jim McLennan calls this movement "forearm rotation" when speaking about it in the serve.
The Pete Sampras Snap http://www.essentialtennisinstruction.com/the-pete-sampras-snap/


Probably the most common term you will hear for this term is "pronation".

Bruce Elliot and Brian Gordon, Ph.D. did the pioneering work to show that internal rotation at the shoulder is responsible for the whole arm rotating - it is not just the wrist or forearm - and the main forces that cause that whole arm rotation come from the shoulder area.

Obviously as the whole arm rotates, the forearm and wrist does so as well.
This probably explains why some emphasize the feeling that it is the wrist that is "snapping" around, while others feel the forearm rotation is dominant - but the whole arm is rotating.

Listen to this guy.

SystemicAnomaly
12-01-2012, 11:07 AM
Ah, my work here is done! I've been preaching about the evils of the term, wrist snap, for a couple of decades now. It's great to see that the gospel has been heard by so many.

Now if I can only get more badminton players to abandon the terminology, I could die a happy man.

boramiNYC
12-01-2012, 11:15 AM
but badminton players really snap their wrist sometimes, no?

SystemicAnomaly
12-01-2012, 11:40 AM
but badminton players really snap their wrist sometimes, no?

No, it is a myth there as well. I played a considerable amount of competitive badminton in the 1980s. Some wrist actions are employed (like tennis) to be sure, but the term, wrist snap, is very misleading. Power is developed primarily in the shoulder, forearm, fingers and, to some extent, in earlier links of the kinetic chain. The role of the wrist is secondary for power production. It is used for changing angles and is used for transferring power from previous links to the hand/racket.

Some 20 years ago, I recall reading a graduate paper by Dr James Poole (one of the last US badminton champions in the 50 and 60s) that was written back in the 1960s. Way back then he was talking about how the role of the wrist in badminton was grossly exaggerated. He was the 1st one that I heard talking about the concept of forearm pronation in racquet sports.

sureshs
12-01-2012, 12:07 PM
Ah, my work here is done! I've been preaching about the evils of the term, wrist snap, for a couple of decades now. It's great to see that the gospel has been heard by so many.

Now if I can only get more badminton players to abandon the terminology, I could die a happy man.

What about table tennis?

user92626
12-01-2012, 12:24 PM
Unlike you guys, I think Djokovic knows what he's talking about. It's just that others might be too stupid to understand. :) Kinda like if a Zen master told you a truth, would you know? The gap is like that between DJ and us mortals.

As to why I think Djo is correct about wrist snapping. The action is correct as long as you don't injure yourself and it adds power. If you train everyday to reach your best potentials, wouldn't you want to extract every ounce of power out of your mechanics? The wrist is one of the moving joints so it sure can help with acceleration.

toly
12-01-2012, 01:19 PM
Unlike you guys, I think Djokovic knows what he's talking about. It's just that others might be too stupid to understand. Kinda like if a Zen master told you a truth, would you know? The gap is like that between DJ and us mortals.

As to why I think Djo is correct about wrist snapping. The action is correct as long as you don't injure yourself and it adds power. If you train everyday to reach your best potentials, wouldn't you want to extract every ounce of power out of your mechanics? The wrist is one of the moving joints so it sure can help with acceleration.
I absolutely agree with you. IMO all of these players use snap of the wrist deliberately, intensively, and very successfully.

http://i45.tinypic.com/14kdrp2.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/2d1mwzm.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/28l6r8o.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/aui6mx.jpg

LeeD
12-01-2012, 01:23 PM
OR, all those guys allow the wrist to pivot while the forearm pronates making the rackethead accelerate thru the swing, which YOU think means he snaps his wrist with his inside forearm muscles, which he doesn't.

toly
12-01-2012, 02:00 PM
OR, all those guys allow the wrist to pivot while the forearm pronates making the rackethead accelerate thru the swing, which YOU think means he snaps his wrist with his inside forearm muscles, which he doesn't.
In case of semiwestern/western grip, the pronation (which creates topspin) decelerates horizontal component of the racquet head velocity. That’s why flat shot is the most powerful FH and we have to hit it without pronation. :confused:

LeeD
12-01-2012, 02:06 PM
Good for you, Toly. You've managed to confuse everyone, including yourself.
And yes, the flat shot is the most powerful (highest ball speed) with the least amount of effort.

sureshs
12-01-2012, 02:22 PM
The angle between the wrist and forearm decreases as the moment of impact approaches. The wrist starts laid back wrt the forearm and then is almost in line with the forearm at impact. This shows that its position wrt to the forearm is not constant.

It could well be a natural consequence of the pronation of the forearm. It is unnatural to pronate without bringing the wrist from laid back to neutral or slightly supinated at impact.

toly
12-01-2012, 03:18 PM
The angle between the wrist and forearm decreases as the moment of impact approaches. The wrist starts laid back wrt the forearm and then is almost in line with the forearm at impact. This shows that its position wrt to the forearm is not constant.

It could well be a natural consequence of the pronation of the forearm. It is unnatural to pronate without bringing the wrist from laid back to neutral or slightly supinated at impact.
Djokovic hits pure flat FH without pronation. He is next to the net and can afford hitting the ball with no pronation at all. :shock:

http://i48.tinypic.com/28a0wzq.jpg

Here is original video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M2JvLXGiWU&feature=plcp

LeeD
12-01-2012, 03:21 PM
Pure flat groundies are normally hit with very little pronation, I thought we agreed on that.
Rally balls need pronation for the topspin it adds, to keep the ball IN as often as possible.

user92626
12-01-2012, 03:23 PM
You guys can see in Djo's photos that toly posts that the wrist angle between photo4 and the last photo changes significantly, as suresh points out.


It cannot be the effect of pronation.To me pronation would be like turning a car's steering wheel. You can do that without changing the wrist angle. Clearly these top guys manipulate their wrist joints. Their wrist angle wrt the forearm segment don't stay fixed through the stroke.

LeeD
12-01-2012, 03:27 PM
Post 22 forehands are vastly different than post 27 forehand. The latter is a somewhat flat winner ball.

JohnYandell
12-01-2012, 04:38 PM
This debate will never settled because players of all levels will always have anecdotal opinions.

And even understanding the video is difficult. There is no doubt you can see forward flex on many, many forehands.

But huge numbers of them when you study at high frame rates flex very little around the contact, ie the wrist is laid back the same amount before during and after.

And you can actually find many examples where the contact actually pushes the wrist back.

Brian Gordon studies offer an explanation of the contradictions. The forward flex can contribute to racket speed, but the way the muscles work on a good forehand, this occurs through the forces generated by the larger muscles.

You can call it snap if you wish, but it is a consequence of other movements. And this is actually true on the serve as well.

Now on the forehand what confuses things even more is that the entire hitting arm and racket are also rotating from the shoulder joint. This causes the wrist along with everything else to turn over greater or less amounts depending on the windshiled wiper.

So everyone can claim to be right. If a player feels his wrist move and describes that as "snap" it's hard to argue with that. But players have proved notoriously inaccurate in giving biomechanical descriptions about how the body actually works--why would they care to when hitting the ball is essentially a matter of developing the right feel?

For me the bottom line is what are the positions? Understand it or not. Explain it accurately or not. Call it anything you like, believe you get there anyway you like, get there anyway you like--if the swing shapes are corresponding to the positions of great forehands hit from similar positions with similar intentions, that'll be good for your forehand.

The challenge is what approach helps players without world class natural gifts actually do this.

ace_pace
12-01-2012, 04:41 PM
Isnt it more like rolling the wrist? I don't really know how to describe it.

LeeD
12-01-2012, 04:42 PM
Guess that was the last word on this subject, well done.

LeeD
12-01-2012, 04:43 PM
You don't roll the wrist, you turn the elbow.

JohnYandell
12-01-2012, 04:43 PM
LD,


Oh this argument will be back! It's never be settled in all the years I've been posting here. But thanks!

LeeD
12-01-2012, 04:45 PM
As usual, you're right. It's back.

toly
12-01-2012, 05:38 PM
Isnt it more like rolling the wrist? I don't really know how to describe it.
If you use pronation and wrist snap forcefully, you will produce rolling the wrist effect automatically, but most of it must happen after impact. :)

This is example of Hantuchova extreme wrist ulnar deviation and pronation actions.

http://i46.tinypic.com/259yhbc.jpg

This is very difficult shot because the timing becomes the main issue, but you can get both, very high ball’s speed and ball’s spin!!!

Cheetah
12-01-2012, 06:18 PM
I have to disagree with everyone who says the top players are snapping their wrists intentionally. I think it is a consequence of the swing mechanics.

You can't prove intention or not with still pictures as Toly has provided however cool they look. The wrist does flex yes but pictures cannot tell you if it was intentional or not.

The wrist can be made to flex from many factors: slowing the rotation of the core or shoulders, slowing the arm, shifting your weight at the precise moment, changing the angle of arc of attack, pulling back with your body or some body part (same as weight shift I suppose), altering the intended contact point during the swing, changing tension in the grip or forearm, putting your wrist a specific location and angle during the setup in the takeback also determines when/if the wrist will snap.

When I play I make my wrist / grip as loose as possible. When I hold my racquet during the unit turn and takeback I only put pressure on 2 or 3 of my fingers only to enforce this looseness, kind of like how you hold a pencil that you are twirling. It's that loose.
Then I set my racquet and wrist/arm angles at the end of the takeback depending on how much wrist snap and pronation i want to come out naturally. If I want a lot of snap i put my wrist and arm like so... if I want more pronation w/ less snap I put it like this.... then I just push off and rotate and depending on my setup the racquet and wrist will do what I intended (during setup phase) and will snap and pronate according to my preset plan. I don't have to manipulate during the swing at all. sometimes I will when i miscalc or i get an unexpected hop or i change my mind etc but the setup will determine everything. I believe the pros are doing the same.

Thats my opinion anyway.

LeeD
12-01-2012, 06:22 PM
We like Daniela's forehand.
I see the arm turning over, pronation, but no wrist snap whatsoever.
OTOH, I"m enamored with Daniela and MariaK. I also see a strong SW grip.

JohnYandell
12-01-2012, 07:28 PM
LD,

At least no one on either side has the political or military power to force conformity...sometimes I think there are those who would enjoy it however!

sureshs
12-01-2012, 07:41 PM
It cannot be the effect of pronation.To me pronation would be like turning a car's steering wheel. You can do that without changing the wrist angle.

The car wheel is the support. Before my previous post, I tried to pronate the lower arm while not changing the wrist angle from the laid back position, and it was very awkward. The pronation naturally induces the pivoting action of the wrist as LeeD says.

sureshs
12-01-2012, 07:42 PM
Djokovic hits pure flat FH without pronation. He is next to the net and can afford hitting the ball with no pronation at all. :shock:

http://i48.tinypic.com/28a0wzq.jpg

Here is original video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M2JvLXGiWU&feature=plcp

I don't think we are discussing "next to net" situations.

bkpr
12-01-2012, 08:35 PM
The wrist does flex yes but pictures cannot tell you if it was intentional or not.

Exactly. My original question was not about whether the wrist moves at all in relation to the forearm, but whether it's supposed to be a conscious movement and forced by the player.

I had a hit tonight for an hour or so and I can't hit any groundie without my wrist ending up in a different position after contact than before (I play with a slightly west-shifted eastern — knuckle on the ridge, between eastern and semi-western bevels). But it sure feels wrong to deliberately move my wrist trying to add a little more racquet head speed. After a few shots I went back to hitting with the most comfortable feel. (Incidentally I won 6-3 against a guy I've never beaten :) )

This thread has expanded more than I expected (see Mum, I have friends!) but I'm learning things so it's good.

LeeD
12-01-2012, 08:38 PM
Wrist moves because forearm is somewhat relaxed, and you just hit a tennis ball, now rolling over your followthru, and gravity/inertia takes effect.
You allow the wrist to move, you do not force it.

Cheetah
12-01-2012, 08:44 PM
Hit the ball with your body, not with your arm. Think of it that way. Most recs hit with their arm therefore they intentionally snap the wrist because they can get more power that way. If you hit with the body then it's a different story altogether. Table tennis is another story.

SystemicAnomaly
12-01-2012, 08:54 PM
Unlike you guys, I think Djokovic knows what he's talking about. It's just that others might be too stupid to understand. :) Kinda like if a Zen master told you a truth, would you know? The gap is like that between DJ and us mortals.

As to why I think Djo is correct about wrist snapping. The action is correct as long as you don't injure yourself and it adds power. If you train everyday to reach your best potentials, wouldn't you want to extract every ounce of power out of your mechanics? The wrist is one of the moving joints so it sure can help with acceleration .

I disagree. Novak is not a coach and he certainly is not an expert in biomechanics. He is parroting what many of his coaches told him 15-20 years ago. We are not denying that that wrist actions occur on the serve and can occur on other strokes. The question is, "does this constitute wrist snap?".

Novak may be a Jedi or Zen master when it comes to execution of strokes but this does not mean that his explanation of his own strokes is totally accurate.

bkpr
12-01-2012, 08:55 PM
You allow the wrist to move, you do not force it.

Yoda-like :)

ace_pace
12-01-2012, 09:04 PM
Well I never said they rolled their wrist manually, I was more or less describing the motion :). Really you should not be manually using the wrist at all, it happens as a result of actions.

SystemicAnomaly
12-01-2012, 09:14 PM
toly, your images show us that there can be wrist actions involved in strokes other than the serve. We are not denying that. However, your images do not prove that the terminology, wrist snap, is an accurate description of the actions involved. The primary problem with the terminology is that it is often misleading.

Have you done any actual coaching? While some players have produced the desired result when a coach tells them to snap the wrist, many others perform wrist actions that are counterproductive, stressful or even dangerous to the wrist. If one uses this questionable terminology, great care should be taken to demonstrate the desired actions. Further care should be taken to make certain that exaggerated wrist flexions (well past neutral) occur that can harm the stroke or the wrist.

The real problem here is that a student of the game may perform correct actions when told to snap the wrist but then they turn around and tell others to snap the wrist without proper demonstration and correction.

boramiNYC
12-01-2012, 09:32 PM
I understand the possibility of misunderstanding by using the term, wrist snap, but there is concern for possibility of tensing up the wrist when students hear, do not use your wrist wrist must be passive and so forth. this has been the case for very long time in teaching E fh where students are told to have firm wrist, which had been fine for old time when topspin wasn't as important as come in and volley off. for SW fh instruction wrist manipulation is a minor issue but to teach a high level E fh, fine wrist control ability is critical in being able to handle todays topspin game. we need better way to teach students E fh effectively and clearly if we are going to teach it at all. talking about wrist movements and control shouldn't be a taboo. that's my take.

toly
12-01-2012, 11:40 PM
Let’s compare two different forehands.

http://i49.tinypic.com/w63b9.jpg

Fish hits WW FH and Djokovic strikes Hard TS FH. Both employ pronation and wrist ulnar deviation. Image #3 shows that Fish racquet is vertical and parallel to his chest, that’s why this type of FH is called WW FH, but Djokovic racquet is closed (corresponding image #3) and perpendicular to his chest. Djokovic FH has absolutely nothing to do with WW FH. This is one of the ways to play winners.

What causes so big difference in follow through? The answer is that Fish applies passive wrist actions, but Djokovic uses actively wrist ulnar deviation. The same does Hantuchova, post 37, and this explains why the skinny super model still is very successful in WTA. :shock:

Cheetah
12-02-2012, 12:03 AM
Let’s compare two different forehands.

http://i49.tinypic.com/w63b9.jpg

Fish hits WW FH and Djokovic strikes Hard TS FH. Both employ pronation and wrist ulnar deviation. Image #3 shows that Fish racquet is vertical and parallel to his chest, that’s why this type of FH is called WW FH, but Djokovic racquet is closed (corresponding image #3) and perpendicular to his chest. Djokovic FH has absolutely nothing to do with WW FH. This is the way to play winners.

What causes so big difference in follow through? The answer is that Fish applies passive wrist actions, but Djokovic uses actively wrist ulnar deviation. The same does Hantuchova, post 37, and this explains why the skinny super model still very successful in WTA. :shock:

Djokovic's fh there is also ww.
Djokovic doesn't use active ulnar deviation.

user92626
12-02-2012, 12:31 AM
I disagree. Novak is not a coach and he certainly is not an expert in biomechanics. He is parroting what many of his coaches told him 15-20 years ago. We are not denying that that wrist actions occur on the serve and can occur on other strokes. The question is, "does this constitute wrist snap?".

Novak may be a Jedi or Zen master when it comes to execution of strokes but this does not mean that his explanation of his own strokes is totally accurate.

And who in here is an expert in biomechanics? :)

I rather believe Djo than LeeD, who asserts that Djok "doesn't know what he's talking about". Which has a higher probability of happening here: Djo not knowing the tennis stroke he's describing or guys like LeeD knowing what the pinnacle of tennis is like? :)

10sLifer
12-02-2012, 12:50 AM
Oh so now where not all about the wrist snap!? I'll make a note. Still see "ulnar deviation" makes us feel smart though, thats good.

toly
12-02-2012, 01:21 AM
Djokovic's fh there is also ww.

If racquet face is horizontal, how can it be WW FH? The wiper always should be parallel to the windshield (player’s chest) not perpendicular to it.:evil:

This is typical WW FH.

http://i50.tinypic.com/k30iv5.jpg

Djokovic doesn't use active ulnar deviation.

I think this is pure speculation and you definitely cannot proof that, can you? :confused:

toly
12-02-2012, 09:06 AM
Monfils hits Hard TS FH with extreme pronation and wrist ulnar deviation.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2sbkj6p.jpg

This is his favorite FH. In picture 4 the racquet is completely closed. This can occur if and only if the wrist is active!!!

Cheetah
12-02-2012, 11:14 AM
Monfils hits Hard TS FH with extreme pronation and wrist ulnar deviation.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2sbkj6p.jpg

This is his favorite FH. In picture 4 the racquet is completely closed. This can occur if and only if the wrist is active!!!

Before I continue I want to make sure I understand what you are saying.
By 'active' you mean the opposite of 'passive' right?

dominikk1985
12-02-2012, 11:25 AM
I read that the closing is a passive effect of the racket face because of the upward brush.

WildVolley
12-02-2012, 01:27 PM
I'm not sure that the active/passive debate makes a lot of sense.

First, video has convinced me that I don't necessarily know what I'm doing in a high level of detail. I assume the same holds for a lot of the pros.

Second, I'd guess that the forearm muscles that control wrist movement are firing off when all of us play, just to hold onto the racket and to keep the wrist from collapsing back too much against the momentum of the racket and the pulling forward of the arm by much stronger muscles in the body.

As far as the use of the wrist on the serve, I'm not a fan of the term wrist-snap. However, "wrist-snap" is taught to high level players as I've personally witnessed. I've seen, for example, Raonic's coach showing him wrist snap in practice. Raonic's serve, imo, doesn't really use much wrist snap, but I'm sure the wrist (meaning forearm muscles) are very active just prior and at contact, just to hold onto the racket if nothing else.

It seems to me that the best servers, are actually slowing the upper arm just prior to contact and this is driving a great amount of the force into internal shoulder rotation and pronation and forearm strength is necessary to deliver this power to the ball.

LeeD
12-02-2012, 01:56 PM
How do we crack the whip?
We slow down the foreward momentum of the forearm and hand, to allow the head of the whip to come thru.

toly
12-02-2012, 02:55 PM
Before I continue I want to make sure I understand what you are saying.
By 'active' you mean the opposite of 'passive' right?

Yes, I think so.:)

Cheetah
12-02-2012, 05:41 PM
Yes, I think so.:)

#4 shows radial deviation, not ulnar deviation.

SystemicAnomaly
12-02-2012, 10:16 PM
And who in here is an expert in biomechanics? :)

I rather believe Djo than LeeD, who asserts that Djok "doesn't know what he's talking about". Which has a higher probability of happening here: Djo not knowing the tennis stroke he's describing or guys like LeeD knowing what the pinnacle of tennis is like? :)

We may not be experts in biomechanics but I am willing to wager a tidy sum that I've done more reading/studying the subject that Novak Djoko has. I've also been playing the game twice long as he has (some 20 years longer) -- I've managed to pick up quite a bit of knowledge on tennis theory in my scant 40 years of playing (even tho' I did not start til I was nearly 21). I believe that LeeD has been playing longer than I have and has also garnered quite a bit of insight in those years.

While Novak has achieved an extremely high level of skill in tennis, much of his tennis knowledge is at a subconscious kinesthetic level. This does not necessarily translate to the ability to analyze stroke mechanics and teach it effectively to others. Those are different cognitive skills than the highly-developed kinesthetic intelligence that Novak possesses.

Also keep in mind that English is not Novak's mother tongue. He may or may not be able to accurately describe the nuances of his own stroke production in English (or even in his native tongue for that matter).

Novak may very well be able to perceive his own strokes in a certain way whether that perception is technically accurate or not. His flawed instruction may very well work for some students of the game. However, for many others, it could lead to exaggerated/forced wrist actions or flawed stroke mechanics that could be detrimental to their tennis or, worse, to their body.

While Novak may be aware of the concept of pronation, it is possible that he may lost if you start talking about supination, internal shoulder rotation, ulnar deviation, etc. Note that many high-level touring pros could not tell you the difference between a full Western grip, a semi-Western grip and a Kung Fu grip.

effortless
12-03-2012, 03:50 AM
Can we even define what wrist snap is?
I feel like i have "wrist snap" because my wrist seems to move from a backwards position before contact with the ball to a forwards position very quickly. Do i actually use wrist muscles to make that forward momentum? ... I don't know - i would have thought so but some convincing points have been made. One thing i do know is that my playing arm has much bigger wrist/forearm muscles than my non playing arm.

Have you ever tried hitting a forehand without using any wrist muscles?.. It doesn't work. You need to use your wrist muscles for an effective shot. Honestly, pick up a racquet now and shadow a forehand while trying to use the least amount of wrist/forearm muscles as possible. Your shot should just feel wrong because your "wrist snap" will be missing. However, maybe we should just call it "wrist pronation". Maybe "wrist pronation" and "wrist snap" are the same thing anyway.

SystemicAnomaly
12-03-2012, 04:25 AM
^ There is no concise definition for wrist snap. When most students are asked to snap the wrist, the most common response is to attempt to move the wrist from an extreme laid-back position (extension) to an extreme flexion position (bent forward) very quickly. In reality, the wrist is usually c0cked back at the start of the forward swing or the upward swing (in the case of the serve) and moves to a position that is either neutral or a position that is less c0cked than it was before. The c0cking of the wrist can be a combination of wrist extension and wrist deviation (ulnar or radial).

The wrist should not move to a position of flexion prior to contact (or at contact). The wrist is fairly neutral after contact as well. In some cases, for some players, the wrist might go slightly past a neutral position after contact. However, it should not assume an extreme flexion (as one might be tempted to do if told to snap the wrist).

Pronation is not an articulation of the wrist -- it is a forearm rotation -- an action to turn the hand. On the serve and overhead smash, what many refer to as wrist snap is really a combination of forearm pronation with some unc0cking of the wrist.

You are wrong about the forehand. It can be hit very effectively without a wrist action. The classic FH (typically with an Eastern FH grip) is usually hit without unc0cking the wrist at all -- it remains laid-back. I have also seen some decent FHs hit w/o c0cking the wrist at all -- it remains fairly neutral for the whole stroke. However, this variation is/was less common.

These classic FHs typically employed a moderate amount of pronation on the forward swing. The modern (WW) forehand uses some wrist action on the forward swing with, perhaps, more pronation than the classic FH.
.

effortless
12-03-2012, 04:50 AM
well i have an eastern forehand and i have a moderate amount of wrist pronation. I find that i have to flex my wrist/forearm muscles to ensure wrist pronation. These muscles are being used to maintain this position until the point of contact. How do you explain my larger wrist/forearm muscles in my playing arm.

effortless
12-03-2012, 05:04 AM
If there is no definition/agreement of what wrist snap is, you can't argue whether it is or isn't a real phenomenon. You said that modern strokes have wrist action - why can't we call this "wrist snap"?. The cocked wrist position involved with wrist snap is not actually laid back, the muscles in the forearm are used for this to happen disregarding forward wrist action.

SystemicAnomaly
12-03-2012, 05:08 AM
^ The WW or modern FH can be hit with an Eastern grip. Federer does it all the time. You may be mixing up wrist flexion with wrist extension. The latter is laying the wrist back. Flexion is in the opposite direction. The wrist does not have to been unc0cked in order to pronate the forearm.

Note that you incorrectly referred to pronation as "wrist pronation". It is the forearm that pronates -- ultimately it turns the hand holding the racket. If you are going to call it something other than forearm pronation why not refer to it as "hand" pronation rather than wrist pronation?

SystemicAnomaly
12-03-2012, 05:21 AM
If there is no definition/agreement of what wrist snap is, you can't argue whether it is or isn't a real phenomenon. You said that modern strokes have wrist action - why can't we call this "wrist snap"?. The cocked wrist position involved with wrist snap is not actually laid back, the muscles in the forearm are used for this to happen disregarding forward wrist action.

You may call it wrist snap if you want but the problem is that this terminology is misleading and sometimes detrimental . More often than not, it encourages the student to perform unwanted violent/exaggerated wrist actions -- too much forward flexion of the wrist. This is my objection to the terminology. 30+ years ago, I was instructed to snap the wrist for tennis serves and badminton overheads. It produced incorrect actions of the wrist. It took me quite a while to unlearn this. I've seen the same thing happen numerous other players.

If you are going to tell a student to "snap the wrist", you must demonstrate exactly what is meant by your instruction. You must also keep a watchful eye that the student's wrist does not end up with an extreme flexion caused by a violent action of the wrist. Such an action can be detrimental to the wrist and forearm.

Not sure what you mean by your very last statement (bolded). Are you referring to supination (the opposite rotation to pronation).
.

effortless
12-03-2012, 05:24 AM
^ The WW or modern FH can be hit with an Eastern grip. Federer does it all the time. You may be mixing up wrist flexion with wrist extension. The latter is laying the wrist back. Flexion is in the opposite direction. The wrist does not have to been unc0cked in order to pronate the forearm.

Note that you incorrectly referred to pronation as "wrist pronation". It is the forearm that pronates -- ultimately it turns the hand holding the racket. If you are going to call it something other than forearm pronation why not refer to it as "hand" pronation rather than wrist pronation?

You didn't really address my posts, you just picked up on the minutiae. Yes i do hit a modern ww eastern forehand. No i am not mixing up wrist extension and wrist flexion. "The wrist does not have to been unc0cked in order to pronate the forearm." This doesn't make sense to me, are you confusing c0cked and unc0cked?

effortless
12-03-2012, 05:28 AM
You may call it wrist snap if you want but the problem is that this terminology is misleading. More often than not, it encourages the student to perform unwanted violent/exaggerated wrist actions -- to much forward flexion of the wrist. This is my objection to the terminology. 30+ years ago, I was instructed to snap the wrist for tennis serves and badminton overheads. It produced incorrect actions of the wrist. It took me quite a while to unlearn this. I've seen the same thing happen numerous other players.

If you are going to tell a student to "snap the wrist", you must demonstrate exactly what is meant by your instruction. You must also keep a watchful eye that the student's wrist does not end up with an extreme flexion caused by a violent action of the wrist. Such an action can be detrimental to the wrist and forearm.

Not sure what you mean by your very last statement (bolded). Are you referring to supination (the opposite rotation to pronation).
.

ahh yes i agree with that. I never really liked the term either, always thought it could be misleading. Nevertheless the term made sense to me personally. I would call it something else too.

SystemicAnomaly
12-03-2012, 05:29 AM
I'm not sure that the active/passive debate makes a lot of sense.

First, video has convinced me that I don't necessarily know what I'm doing in a high level of detail. I assume the same holds for a lot of the pros.

Second, I'd guess that the forearm muscles that control wrist movement are firing off when all of us play, just to hold onto the racket and to keep the wrist from collapsing back too much against the momentum of the racket and the pulling forward of the arm by much stronger muscles in the body.

As far as the use of the wrist on the serve, I'm not a fan of the term wrist-snap. However, "wrist-snap" is taught to high level players as I've personally witnessed. I've seen, for example, Raonic's coach showing him wrist snap in practice. Raonic's serve, imo, doesn't really use much wrist snap, but I'm sure the wrist (meaning forearm muscles) are very active just prior and at contact, just to hold onto the racket if nothing else.

It seems to me that the best servers, are actually slowing the upper arm just prior to contact and this is driving a great amount of the force into internal shoulder rotation and pronation and forearm strength is necessary to deliver this power to the ball.

Good take on the issue. I agree that the passive/active argument could be a false/misleading dichotomy.
.

effortless
12-03-2012, 05:34 AM
"The cocked wrist position involved with wrist snap is not actually laid back"
What i meant by this was that hand pronation / c0cked wrist actually involves using your forearm muscles to keep it in that position - those muscles are flexing.

SystemicAnomaly
12-03-2012, 06:00 AM
"The cocked wrist position involved with wrist snap is not actually laid back"
What i meant by this was that hand pronation / c0cked wrist actually involves using your forearm muscles to keep it in that position - those muscles are flexing.

Still not following. Are you referring to supination of the forearm? The forearm is often supinated in the prep phase so that it can pronate on the forward or upward swing. To me, a c0cked wrist is one that is laid-back -- often wrist extension or wrist extension combined with ulnar/radial deviation.

boramiNYC
12-03-2012, 11:42 AM
right before contact on my E fh, my hand is completely supinated but also fully extended as well. the latter can be finely controlled to control the ball. during pronation keep it extended for more topspin or flex some to impart more horizontal velocity to the ball when hitting a higher ball.

psv255
12-03-2012, 05:47 PM
I'm a bit confused.
This thread seems to have proposed, through different ideas, two starkly different candidates for what one means by "wrist snap," perhaps both being correct.

1. The "wrist snap" is the quick change in position of the hand from laid-back to nearly in line with the forearm (the hand becoming less extended), which can be achieved without any forearm pronation:
http://www.use.com/images/s_3/7590a0c58f1a57329d85.jpg

2. The "wrist snap" is a deliberate pronation of the forearm shortly before contact and continues to complete a WW wiper-like forehand follow-through, possibly with some flexion as Anatoliy showed with Monfils.

Now, is the main question whether either of these "snaps" requires any immediate/last-second input from the player (as opposed to simply a passive result of proper prep/takeback/grip/etc.)?

From personal experience, I can say that for me, number 1 happens without any additional last-minute tweaks of the wrist.

EDIT: Best to never again say the words "wrist" and "snap" together ever again; everyone will be better off :)

Cheetah
12-03-2012, 08:01 PM
Sigh... I give up on trying to explain this every 2 weeks.

Here's the deal:
Some people intentionally flex their wrists. Some people don't.
Most pros today do not intentionally flex. (we're talking typical rally ball here, not some situational out of position off balance type of shot)
It happens naturally as a result of the stretch-shortening cycle. (ssc). If you don't know what ssc is look it up.

Players who don't use ssc and use their wrists intentionally seem to have a mental block or something when it comes to the possibility that a different type of swing can exist. No matter how many threads there are, how many explanations by top coaches on websites there are, testimonials from people who use this technique etc etc they just can't see it or won't believe it.

I'm telling you that you can swing and get tons of spin, more racquet head spead, a smoother stroke and better follow through using ssc as the main engine and not doing anything with the wrist. The pics posted in this thread are of players who all use this technique. You can use ssc to engage flexation as well as pronation. Trust me. I swing w/ this technique. It takes a LOT of work to get rid intentionally flexing during the swing. You need to get the kinetic chain working correctly from ground to racquet head. Once you learn it you'll see that it's easier, easier on the body and contact feels better. If anything a player who is swinging with this technique will sometimes give a little intentional radial deviation on the wrist.

IMO you need to have a good core rotation to swing this way. Arming the ball seems to work against / prevent / hamper a loose wrist-no intentional flex-ssc swing.

I used to be a wrist snapper so I understand the resistance. And there's nothing wrong with intentionally flexing. It's just another way to swing.

Look at Kohlschreiber's here. Look how loose and fluid the wrist action is. It's as if his very loose wrist is made entirely of rubber. This is the ssc action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9cR_S7jakA

And fyi, to a poster above... there are no muscles in the wrist.

Power Player
12-03-2012, 08:15 PM
I can generate a lot of spin on my shots and while it looks like my wrist is doing it, it is really my forearm. I know this because my right forearm has gotten a litle bigger than my left from playing so much. I also know this because i had wrist tendinitis that was pretty bad, and i simply can not go out there and wrist shots.

Also djokovic does not hit flat, he uses a full western grip and generates a lot of spin. You dont have to roll over the ball to hit with a lot of spin. in fact that can end up being counter productive.

psv255
12-03-2012, 08:19 PM
Sigh... I give up on trying to explain this every 2 weeks.

Cheetah, if your post is directed at me re-starting this thread (and possibly repeating what others have said), I apologize for taking up your time; I am not in need of explanation, as I too have exploited the strech-shortening cycle by staying completely relaxed through the swing.

My question was more as to why posters were debating what wrist snap is, and what part of the swing they are attributing it to.
But I guess this is pointless, since it is better to completely get rid of the phrase "wrist snap" in tennis instruction/colloquialism.
Thanks.

WildVolley
12-03-2012, 08:47 PM
Good take on the issue. I agree that the passive/active argument could be a false/misleading dichotomy.


And I agree with you that the whole idea of "wrist snap" as commonly taught is misleading and can lead to players trying to do harmful things. Most of that snapping motion, like what you see on a Sampras serve video in slow motion, is what we perhaps incorrectly call "pronation" or is really internal shoulder rotation and not the snapping wrist flexion that is normally demonstrated.

I believe that most players should focus on the proper serve motion and little thought should be given the the wrist at all. Video is probably the best way to achieve this.

boramiNYC
12-03-2012, 08:53 PM
there is no need to equate the term wrist snap with whatever negative connotation that it's something beginners do out of coordination. snap means a sudden movement. as simple as that. it could be within coordination or out of coordination. the whole forward swing is like a chain of snaps of different joints in all together create a whip like effect. wrist is simply one of those joints and being the smallest one at the end it definitely feels like a snap like a cracking whip. can't understand why people automatically think uncoordinated sudden movement when they hear wrist snap. it could just as well be a totally coordinated motion which I would think Dj is implying. and in this sense he is not using English in a misguided way. it's very clear to me what he means. people should just take the term as what it simply is in the most commonly used meaning and stop vilifing the term, which most likely is a remnant of old school teaching where they said keep the wrist firm and not move at all.

Cheetah
12-03-2012, 08:57 PM
Cheetah, if your post is directed at me re-starting this thread (and possibly repeating what others have said), I apologize for taking up your time; I am not in need of explanation, as I too have exploited the strech-shortening cycle by staying completely relaxed through the swing.

My question was more as to why posters were debating what wrist snap is, and what part of the swing they are attributing it to.
But I guess this is pointless, since it is better to completely get rid of the phrase "wrist snap" in tennis instruction/colloquialism.
Thanks.

sup?

i wasn't directing it anyone. I was rambling. No problem. I might have gotten off topic or the thread moved off topic. I wasn't really paying attention too much to be honest as I'm doing some heaving multitasking the last couple of weeks.

I agree that the word 'snap' is not the best.

psv255
12-03-2012, 09:13 PM
there is no need to equate the term wrist snap with whatever negative connotation that it's something beginners do out of coordination. snap means a sudden movement.
...
the whole forward swing is like a chain of snaps of different joints in all together create a whip like effect. wrist is simply one of those joints and being the smallest one at the end it definitely feels like a snap like a cracking whip. can't understand why people automatically think uncoordinated sudden movement when they hear wrist snap.
...
people should just take the term as what it simply is in the most commonly used meaning and stop vilifing the term, which most likely is a remnant of old school teaching where they said keep the wrist firm and not move at all.

All very good points!
Although "snap" seems to be a valid (if vague) descriptive term for what's going on in the culmination of the kinetic chain, I think that most would still agree that "snap the wrist" isn't a very good instructional term, since it can mean so many things, correct or incorrect.


i wasn't directing it anyone. I was rambling. No problem. I might have gotten off topic or the thread moved off topic. I wasn't really paying attention too much to be honest as I'm doing some heaving multitasking the last couple of weeks.

I understand; there is useful and especially vital stuff in your "rambling" nonetheless!

SystemicAnomaly
12-03-2012, 09:56 PM
And who in here is an expert in biomechanics?

I rather believe Djo than LeeD, who asserts that Djok "doesn't know what he's talking about". Which has a higher probability of happening here: Djo not knowing the tennis stroke he's describing or guys like LeeD knowing what the pinnacle of tennis is like?

There was one other point that I meant to make in my reply to this in post #63 (on page 4 of this thread). Many of the real stroke and biomechanics experts themselves play at a level that is in the 3.5 to 5.0 range. Should we also dismiss their analyses and findings because a 7.0 non-expert (like Djokovic) says something else?


there is no need to equate the term wrist snap with whatever negative connotation that it's something beginners do out of coordination. snap means a sudden movement. as simple as that. it could be within coordination or out of coordination. the whole forward swing is like a chain of snaps of different joints in all together create a whip like effect. wrist is simply one of those joints and being the smallest one at the end it definitely feels like a snap like a cracking whip. can't understand why people automatically think uncoordinated sudden movement when they hear wrist snap. it could just as well be a totally coordinated motion which I would think Dj is implying. and in this sense he is not using English in a misguided way. it's very clear to me what he means. people should just take the term as what it simply is in the most commonly used meaning and stop vilifing the term, which most likely is a remnant of old school teaching where they said keep the wrist firm and not move at all.

Unfortunately, that is not the real world. In the real world, many players or students of the game will hear the confusing terminology and get the wrong idea. It happened to me what I was learning the game more than 30 yrs ago. I've seen it happen with hundreds, possibly thousands, of others since then as well.

Some, like you, may get the right idea despite this misleading terminology. Good for you. It does not mean that, in general, the terminology should be used by coaches -- at least not w/o qualifying and/or demonstrating it.

Cheetah
12-04-2012, 02:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDJJS3d2N1c

tennis_balla
12-04-2012, 03:14 AM
Terms are useless in tennis without proper knowledge, feeling and a correct visual understanding of the stroke. The brain learns better and faster visually anyways.

The term snapping the wrist can have 100's of different meanings to each individual because they fill in the blanks on their own according to their knowledge. The term wrist snap is harmless because its just a term, just words. The harm comes from people not understanding whats actually going on. I can teach someone the serve and use the term wrist snap and there is nothing wrong with it. In fact growing up I remember countless coaches using this term, including ones I was taught by. What they did do which is key is show and explain to me the proper way to hit the serve. The fact that they used a term like wrist snap is insignificant.

toly
12-04-2012, 07:56 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDJJS3d2N1c
This coach is completely wrong that the wrist should be 90 degrees at contact. Even his own videos demonstrate that this angle never equal 90°. :shock:

Power Player
12-04-2012, 07:59 AM
This coach is completely wrong that the wrist should be 90 degrees at contact. Even his own videos demonstrate that this angle never equal 90°. :shock:

Thinking about that stuff is pointless. Who plays tennis and hits the ball worrying if their wrist is at the proper angle every time? The angle of the wrist is a result of a bigger picture which IS under your control.

toly
12-04-2012, 08:11 AM
Thinking about that stuff is pointless. Who plays tennis and hits the ball worrying if their wrist is at the proper angle every time? The angle of the wrist is a result of a bigger picture which IS under your control.
His idea means that during forward swing we should lock the wrist with constant angle which is equal 90°. This is not true in professional tennis.
Btw, basketball players use wrist flexion very intensively with very good control and can hit threes from long distance. Tennis pros also can control wrist’s actions.

julian
12-04-2012, 08:11 AM
Terms are useless in tennis without proper knowledge, feeling and a correct visual understanding of the stroke. The brain learns better and faster visually anyways.

The term snapping the wrist can have 100's of different meanings to each individual because they fill in the blanks on their own according to their knowledge. The term wrist snap is harmless because its just a term, just words. The harm comes from people not understanding whats actually going on. I can teach someone the serve and use the term wrist snap and there is nothing wrong with it. In fact growing up I remember countless coaches using this term, including ones I was taught by. What they did do which is key is show and explain to me the proper way to hit the serve. The fact that they used a term like wrist snap is insignificant.
Greetings,

there are some attempts to clarify related terminology.
You may find blog #7 of blog.tennisspeed.com interesting
Regards,
Julian

user92626
12-04-2012, 09:47 AM
There was one other point that I meant to make in my reply to this in post #63 (on page 4 of this thread). Many of the real stroke and biomechanics experts themselves play at a level that is in the 3.5 to 5.0 range. Should we also dismiss their analyses and findings because a 7.0 non-expert (like Djokovic) says something else?




Unfortunately, that is not the real world. In the real world, many players or students of the game will hear the confusing terminology and get the wrong idea. It happened to me what I was learning the game more than 30 yrs ago. I've seen it happen with hundreds, possibly thousands, of others since then as well.

Some, like you, may get the right idea despite this misleading terminology. Good for you. It does not mean that, in general, the terminology should be used by coaches -- at least not w/o qualifying and/or demonstrating it.


SA, I was talking in this context. Now you want to expand to include everyone, every expert and topics beyond the wrist?


"..not w/o qualifying and/or demonstrating it"

Well said. It is around my point since the beginning that Djokovic knows what he's talking about and who has more been demonstrating it than he has? :)

The wrist action isn't some rocket science math that it needs experts to explain.

Bora said it well "the whole forward swing is like a chain of snaps of different joints in all together create a whip like effect. wrist is simply one of those joints..." This is my conclusion as well. The wrist is a joint that can flex which can aid control and power. As long as we all play the roll arm chair tennis expert, we might as well discuss the ultimate tennis, ie Djo and his ilk's level, instead of the uncoordinated, all beginner, like Bora has suggested (another good point, Bora). Where would it end if you started to include everyone?

user92626
12-04-2012, 10:02 AM
Terms are useless in tennis without proper knowledge, feeling and a correct visual understanding of the stroke. The brain learns better and faster visually anyways.

Visualizing, seeing isn't enough either.

I remember a very smart lawyer friend I know who said you can only learn tennis by doing. It cannot be explained with words.


Instead of being right down dismissive of terms and what others said, Djokovic nonetheless, why a beginner, student doesn't ask his in person coach to explain and demo an instruction?

Anyway, my own finding is that Djokovic is ultimately correct. Uh. I can't keep my wrist firm. It moves and flexes. So why would I want to spend any effort to keep it firm?

If it natually had to move, why not train and exploit it further. A key for me is not to load your wrist with more force (pressure) than it can handle. This isn't advanced physics. You can as well hurt your shoulder if you only swing that joint, ie the serve.

Cheetah
12-04-2012, 10:06 AM
This coach is completely wrong that the wrist should be 90 degrees at contact. Even his own videos demonstrate that this angle never equal 90°. :shock:

90 degrees or not is irrelevant. He just said 90 because that one shot he showed had an angle of somewhere near 90.

The purpose of me posting the video was to show what he did 'not' say. It was another example of a coach discussing power in the forehand and concentrating on a 'loose' wrist and never once mentioning 'snap your wrist at contact' or 'intentionally flex the wrist just before you make contact.'

In fact I don't think I've ever seen an instructional video where the instructor says to intentionally snap/flex the wrist.

toly
12-04-2012, 11:07 AM
In fact I don't think I've ever seen an instructional video where the instructor says to intentionally snap/flex the wrist.

Coach Mauro Marcos demonstrates pros way of using the wrist actions and forearm pronation before and after contact.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2rrnw2b.jpg

Cheetah
12-04-2012, 11:43 AM
His idea means that during forward swing we should lock the wrist with constant angle which is equal 90°. This is not true in professional tennis.
Btw, basketball players use wrist flexion very intensively with very good control and can hit threes from long distance. Tennis pros also can control wrist’s actions.

So after watching that video from xstf you've concluded that he is saying a forehand should lock the wrist at 90°?

Power Player
12-04-2012, 11:54 AM
Thats all forearm pronation in post 94. Just worry about the forearm and keep the wrist loose. Thats all anyone is saying here.

toly
12-04-2012, 12:49 PM
So after watching that video from xstf you've concluded that he is saying a forehand should lock the wrist at 90°?
Yeah, when he said that the best tennis players keep the wrist in a bend back position at 90°, I turned off the video.:)

toly
12-04-2012, 12:53 PM
Thats all forearm pronation in post 94. Just worry about the forearm and keep the wrist loose. Thats all anyone is saying here.
If you pronate without active wrist actions, the racquet face would be vertical, not horizontal, see picture 6 in post #64 and Fish FH in post #51..:confused:

sureshs
12-04-2012, 01:01 PM
If you pronate without active wrist actions, the racquet face would be vertical, not horizontal, see picture 6 in post #64 and Fish FH in post #51..:confused:

That is why I said it is almost impossible to keep the wrist laid back and pronate the forearm. The wrist will rollover by itself.

Power Player
12-04-2012, 01:07 PM
But it is not active!! You don't think about that, you just keep it loose.

SystemicAnomaly
12-04-2012, 01:27 PM
Terms are useless in tennis without proper knowledge, feeling and a correct visual understanding of the stroke. The brain learns better and faster visually anyways.

The term snapping the wrist can have 100's of different meanings to each individual because they fill in the blanks on their own according to their knowledge. The term wrist snap is harmless because its just a term, just words. The harm comes from people not understanding whats actually going on. I can teach someone the serve and use the term wrist snap and there is nothing wrong with it. In fact growing up I remember countless coaches using this term, including ones I was taught by. What they did do which is key is show and explain to me the proper way to hit the serve. The fact that they used a term like wrist snap is insignificant.

The term can still be harmful even if a coach shows you what they mean. The problem arises when a student who has been told to "snap the wrist" will turn around an tell others that they must snap their wrist for more power. However, their suggestion will often not be accompanied by the proper instruction. This happen quite a bit -- I've heard it thousands of times from various players for both tennis and badminton. This is where the harm comes in.

After a while, "snap the wrist" just becomes a mantra -- a mantra that many do not really understand. Some players that repeat the mantra have the proper mechanics while others who repeat it, do not.

bhupaes
12-04-2012, 02:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDJJS3d2N1c

Excellent video! This has the best illustration of timing the backswing off the bounce that I've seen. IMO, the importance of this (a matter of heavy dispute here, as you know :) ) cannot be overemphasized. The various positions of the racquet and hand are shown with superb clarity, illustrating how lag happens, and how the racquet is pulled. Some details regarding arm and wrist action after the forward swing starts are not discussed, but we've discussed them ad infinitum and should be able to recognize them in the video.

Thanks for posting this, Cheetah.

toly
12-04-2012, 02:43 PM
That is why I said it is almost impossible to keep the wrist laid back and pronate the forearm. The wrist will rollover by itself.
Sorry, but I think your statement is incorrect.

Let’s analyze Federer straight arm forehand. FH with bend elbow is more difficult for explanation.

When Federer rotates the arm around shoulder, he creates centrifugal force which has normal component to the racquet string plane. This force normal component (motion dependent torque) automatically rotates the racquet about the wrist in counterclockwise direction, see Rod Cross article http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2006/07/wrist_snap_in_the_serve.html.

This normal component is function of angle (ϕ) between axes of arm and racquet. If ϕ=0, this component is zero.

On other hand, Federer usually applies arm pronation. This is also angular rotation, which also creates its own centrifugal force and motion dependent torque. Rod Cross completely ignored this fact. Moreover, this motion dependent torque pushes the hand to rotate the racquet about the wrist in clockwise direction, opposite to the torque created by arm rotation.

If the wrist is passive, pronation torque always prevails and the racquet string bed would be vertical after impact!!!

If active wrist ulnar deviation creates torque which is bigger than pronation dependent torque, then the racquet string bed will be horizontal!!!

So, Monfils is definitely hits the ball with strong active ulnar deviation, but Fish hits with passive wrist. That’s why there are so big differences in their follow through.:confused:

chico9166
12-04-2012, 03:15 PM
Sorry, but I think your statement is incorrect.

Let’s analyze Federer straight arm forehand. FH with bend elbow is more difficult for explanation.

When Federer rotates the arm around shoulder, he creates centrifugal force which has normal component to the racquet string plane. This force normal component (motion dependent torque) automatically rotates the racquet about the wrist in counterclockwise direction, see Rod Cross article http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2006/07/wrist_snap_in_the_serve.html.

This normal component is function of angle (ϕ) between axes of arm and racquet. If ϕ=0, this component is zero.

On other hand, Federer usually applies arm pronation. This is also angular rotation, which also creates its own centrifugal force and motion dependent torque. Rod Cross completely ignored this fact. Moreover, this motion dependent torque pushes the hand to rotate the racquet about the wrist in clockwise direction, opposite to the torque created by arm rotation.

If the wrist is passive, pronation torque always prevails and the racquet string bed would be vertical after impact!!!

If active wrist ulnar deviation creates torque which is bigger than pronation dependent torque, then the racquet string bed will be horizontal!!!

So, Monfils is definitely hits the ball with strong active ulnar deviation, but Fish hits with passive wrist. That’s why there are so big differences in their follow through.:confused:

Toly, you should join Tennisplayer and read Brian Gordon's articles on the forehand...I think you would enjoy is biomechanical perspective...Btw, if i understand you correctly, you are essentially correct with your observation.

Active wrist usage is a requirement to counter the rotational force created as the racquet rotates around the hand....Much of wrist movement is for proper racquet face orientation and for directional/shot line purposes.

Cheetah
12-04-2012, 04:14 PM
Excellent video! This has the best illustration of timing the backswing off the bounce that I've seen. IMO, the importance of this (a matter of heavy dispute here, as you know :) ) cannot be overemphasized. The various positions of the racquet and hand are shown with superb clarity, illustrating how lag happens, and how the racquet is pulled. Some details regarding arm and wrist action after the forward swing starts are not discussed, but we've discussed them ad infinitum and should be able to recognize them in the video.

Thanks for posting this, Cheetah.

yup. it's a good video for sure.

user92626
12-04-2012, 04:19 PM
There are these two ways that you can try and see an emphasis on wrist action. Maybe you'll find one works better for you than the other.

1. Keep your wrist firm and the angle between the forearm and the fist relatively fixed, hit the ball all the way into the followthrough with the configuration.

2. Keep your wrist loose like you can knock on a door with just moving your fist. On the forward swing, sort of stop your arm early, like while your elbow and forarm are aligning to your body, and then let your wrist joint move forward from that point.

For me, 2 seems to add more power :)

Cheetah
12-04-2012, 04:21 PM
Toly, you should join Tennisplayer and read Brian Gordon's articles on the forehand...I think you would enjoy is biomechanical perspective...Btw, if i understand you correctly, you are essentially correct with your observation.

Active wrist usage is a requirement to counter the rotational force created as the racquet rotates around the hand....Much of wrist movement is for proper racquet face orientation and for directional/shot line purposes.

haha. he won't. I've been telling him the same forever. This is the 'mental block' i was referring to regarding the subject at hand, literally. The inability to see other possibilities outside of one's own experience. No offense to you Toly. :)

toly
12-04-2012, 04:32 PM
Toly, you should join Tennisplayer and read Brian Gordon's articles on the forehand...I think you would enjoy is biomechanical perspective...Btw, if i understand you correctly, you are essentially correct with your observation.

Active wrist usage is a requirement to counter the rotational force created as the racquet rotates around the hand....Much of wrist movement is for proper racquet face orientation and for directional/shot line purposes.
Thanks to JY, two months I was the member of the tennisplayer.net and drown in his absolutely incredible video library. There is too much information to consume for old man.:(

Active wrist usage can also contribute more than 50% to RHS. Monfils regularly hits 120 mph FH, but Fish cannot due to his passive wrist.:)

toly
12-04-2012, 04:38 PM
haha. he won't. I've been telling him the same forever. This is the 'mental block' i was referring to regarding the subject at hand, literally. The inability to see other possibilities outside of one's own experience. No offense to you Toly. :)
I like constructive negative comments about my posts. They usually wake me up.:)

Cheetah
12-04-2012, 04:41 PM
I like constructive negative comments about my posts. They usually wake me up.:)

i don't mean to be negative. my posts sound harsh because i usually leave out the qualifiers such as 'imho' and 'i think' etc. I only have time to spew my thoughts quickly.

Dimcorner
12-06-2012, 10:08 AM
This reminds me of badminton :). I play A LOT of badminton (state and out of state tournaments) and I just started getting into tennis recently.

In the old days they used to teach wrist snap but probably because the racquets back then were not as stable/stiff. Today they teach pronation (i'm talking overhead smashes here) to get the power because the racquet is much more stable and stiff. It adds LOADS more power to the shot.

Fu Haifeng hits about +300 kph smashes consistently during matches. It's interesting to watch just because the mechanics of a serve and smash are pretty similar. That and the sound of him hitting the shuttle is pretty wicked.

http://youtu.be/eH6qFJoySf8

I have only been playing constantly for about 5 months now and for some odd reason my best shots are serves, followed by overhead smashes, and then my one handed BH. I have crap for a forehand.

Dimcorner
12-06-2012, 10:09 AM
Oh, where are my manners!

Hi everyone! I find this site very informative and very useful.
Hopefully I can take a vid one of these days for you guys to break down.

SystemicAnomaly
12-06-2012, 12:29 PM
^ Welcome to the TW forum, DC.

This reminds me of badminton :). I play A LOT of badminton (state and out of state tournaments) and I just started getting into tennis recently.

In the old days they used to teach wrist snap but probably because the racquets back then were not as stable/stiff. Today they teach pronation (i'm talking overhead smashes here) to get the power because the racquet is much more stable and stiff. It adds LOADS more power to the shot...

I started playing badminton in the late 70s with aluminum and early graphite racquets, altho' I did play a bit with wood. Everyone was talking about wrist snap and the wristy-ness of the sport. However I later discovered that the role of the wrist was not really as advertised -- it was grossly exaggerated.

Most coaches & players back in the day emphasized the wrist so much because they didn't know any better -- not because the racquets required it. As far back as the 1960s, Dr. James Poole (one of the last of the US world-class champions), wrote a PhD paper that indicated that pronation was a major contributor of power on badminton strokes. It was his contention the the role of the wrist was emphasized more than it should be. This information seemed to be ignored (or unavailable) to most of the badminton community for several decades.

I played a lot of badminton tournaments in the 80s. When I came back to tennis in the late 80s/early 90s, I found that my serves, overheads and volleys were all intact but my groundstrokes had atrophied. I have taught tennis to quite a few badminton players. Most of them master overheads/serves (and volleys) first and struggle a bit more with groundstrokes. This is just the opposite for most other novice tennis players. Overall, the badminton players have picked up tennis quicker than most other novices tho'.

sureshs
12-06-2012, 12:39 PM
What I remember (not having played in the wood era) was that teaching in the wood era was heavily against using the wrist. It was considered very bad to play tennis like table tennis. Modern rackets made it possible to use the wrists more.

Dimcorner
12-06-2012, 01:27 PM
I started playing badminton in the late 70s with aluminum and early graphite racquets, altho' I did play a bit with wood. Everyone was talking about wrist snap and the wristy-ness of the sport. However I later discovered that the role of the wrist was not really as advertised -- it was grossly exaggerated.


Yeah I can agree with that. I think I ended up injuring my wrist/forearm every now and then when I was following the "wrist" technique. In fact when I stopped trying to do what my coaches told me and doing what felt a little more natural (pronation) I had less nagging on my elbow and wrist while at the same time having more power (a LOT more power).

toly
12-06-2012, 01:43 PM
^ Welcome to the TW forum, DC.



I started playing badminton in the late 70s with aluminum and early graphite racquets, altho' I did play a bit with wood. Everyone was talking about wrist snap and the wristy-ness of the sport. However I later discovered that the role of the wrist was not really as advertised -- it was grossly exaggerated.

Most coaches & players back in the day emphasized the wrist so much because they didn't know any better -- not because the racquets required it. As far back as the 1960s, Dr. James Poole (one of the last of the US world-class champions), wrote a PhD paper that indicated that pronation was a major contributor of power on badminton strokes. It was his contention the the role of the wrist was emphasized more than it should be. This information seemed to be ignored (or unavailable) to most of the badminton community for several decades.

I played a lot of badminton tournaments in the 80s. When I came back to tennis in the late 80s/early 90s, I found that my serves, overheads and volleys were all intact but my groundstrokes had atrophied. I have taught tennis to quite a few badminton players. Most of them master overheads/serves (and volleys) first and struggle a bit more with groundstrokes. This is just the opposite for most other novice tennis players. Overall, the badminton players have picked up tennis quicker than most other novices tho'.
There is example of Chanelle Scheepers serve, where wrist flexion is the major contributor to the RHS and arm pronation supplies virtually nothing. :shock:

http://i45.tinypic.com/11jqf60.jpg

SystemicAnomaly
12-06-2012, 05:35 PM
There is example of Chanelle Scheepers serve, where wrist flexion is the major contributor to the RHS and arm pronation supplies virtually nothing...

Puzzling that you quoted a post about badminton strokes to discuss a tennis serve.

Nonetheless, I clearly see quite a bit of evidence of pronation in this photo sequence of Chanelle's serve. Look at the orientation of the racket face and the hand in #1 compared to #6 or #11. That change in orientation is due primarily to forearm pronation with ISR.

Yes, there is flexion as an action as well in the upward swing. However, we do not see a position of flexion in your sequence at all. The wrist moves from a c0cked position (extension + wrist deviation) to a neutral position. Quite often, when a player is asked to snap the wrist w/o a proper demonstration (and correction), the player will often exhibit a much more radical flexion than this -- the wrist ends up in an extreme position of flexion. This is my objection to the terminology.

Cheetah
12-06-2012, 06:06 PM
However, we do not see a position of flexion in your sequence at all. The wrist moves from a c0cked position (extension + wrist deviation) to a neutral position.

Moving the wrist from an extended position in the direction towards neutral or flexed position is called flexation.

SystemicAnomaly
12-06-2012, 06:31 PM
Moving the wrist from an extended position in the direction towards neutral or flexed position is called flexation.

Are you pushing (sic) my leg? While I would welcome a word that distinguishes the action from the position, I could not find a definition on the interweb for your word, flexation.

Cheetah
12-06-2012, 06:52 PM
Are you pushing (sic) my leg? While I would welcome a word that distinguishes the action from the position, I could not find a definition on the interweb for your word, flexation.

oops. flexion.
flexion (flek´shn),
n the bending of a joint between two skeletal members to decrease the angle between the members; opposite of extension.
n movement of a limb to decrease the angle of a joint.

CoachingMastery
12-06-2012, 08:04 PM
^ Welcome to the TW forum, DC.



I started playing badminton in the late 70s with aluminum and early graphite racquets, altho' I did play a bit with wood. Everyone was talking about wrist snap and the wristy-ness of the sport. However I later discovered that the role of the wrist was not really as advertised -- it was grossly exaggerated.

Most coaches & players back in the day emphasized the wrist so much because they didn't know any better -- not because the racquets required it. As far back as the 1960s, Dr. James Poole (one of the last of the US world-class champions), wrote a PhD paper that indicated that pronation was a major contributor of power on badminton strokes. It was his contention the the role of the wrist was emphasized more than it should be. This information seemed to be ignored (or unavailable) to most of the badminton community for several decades.

I played a lot of badminton tournaments in the 80s. When I came back to tennis in the late 80s/early 90s, I found that my serves, overheads and volleys were all intact but my groundstrokes had atrophied. I have taught tennis to quite a few badminton players. Most of them master overheads/serves (and volleys) first and struggle a bit more with groundstrokes. This is just the opposite for most other novice tennis players. Overall, the badminton players have picked up tennis quicker than most other novices tho'.

SA, did you play any badminton in So. Calif? I played with Jim Poole (and coached tennis against his son), as well as with Vicki Toutz (our first US Olympic Badminton Coach), Bobby Gilmore, Monica Oritz among others. My dad ran a badminton gym in Garden Grove for over 25 years, where I grew up playing...wonder if our paths crossed!

After growing up playing badminton at a competitive level, I switched to tennis in High School...at the time, no badminton team for boys. In tennis, my drops, angle volleys, overheads and serves were very good...my ground game was less skilled.

My view is that on smashes, there is more pronation, just as in tennis on the serve and overhead...the wrist snap is not a conscious component, more of a resultant move during the post contact phase.

However, in high level badminton, the underhand strokes, (namely the serve), and quick, fast exchanges are indeed wrist actions with very little arm motion or pronation as the reaction time needed would render the player helpless in defending by having the arm and racquet move too far within the quick shot. (The underhand serve has more arm motion because the server is not reacting to an incoming shot and is usually serving very high and deep--usually for singles.) Of course the backhand serve motion is all wrist when the player is trying a quick serve over the head of the returner.

toly
12-06-2012, 08:42 PM
Puzzling that you quoted a post about badminton strokes to discuss a tennis serve.

Nonetheless, I clearly see quite a bit of evidence of pronation in this photo sequence of Chanelle's serve. Look at the orientation of the racket face and the hand in #1 compared to #6 or #11. That change in orientation is due primarily to forearm pronation with ISR.

Yes, there is flexion as an action as well in the upward swing. However, we do not see a position of flexion in your sequence at all. The wrist moves from a c0cked position (extension + wrist deviation) to a neutral position. Quite often, when a player is asked to snap the wrist w/o a proper demonstration (and correction), the player will often exhibit a much more radical flexion than this -- the wrist ends up in an extreme position of flexion. This is my objection to the terminology.

http://i45.tinypic.com/11jqf60.jpg

Scheepers uses arm pronation very actively. In fact, angular path of the arm pronation is 90°. At the same time wrist ulnar deviation also rotates the racquet 90°. So, the angle between arm axis and longitude axis of the racquet is zero. If this angle is zero pronation cannot contribute any power to the serve, but only provides proper orientation of the racquet. See explanation in http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=361610 post #1 and #7.

Scheepers racquet face in frame1 is open around 60°, almost like waiter’s tray. Thus, she can move bend back hand before it reaches neutral position. And this unbend/snap/flex or whatever motion provides the major power to the serve, not arm pronation.

I really don’t know how we should call this motion, but I call it flexion. If you know something better just tell us please.

SystemicAnomaly
12-06-2012, 11:20 PM
^ Not really following you on that. Will need to look at what you are saying when my brain is more awake than it is right now.

...
flexion (flek´shn),
n the bending of a joint between two skeletal members to decrease the angle between the members; opposite of extension.
n movement of a limb to decrease the angle of a joint.

Yup, from various definitions that I've seen of flexion, it applies both to a position (or condition) and an action (movement). Seems to me that there should be a way to make a distinction between the two uses. Sometimes it is apparent by context but this is not always the case. This leads to a bit of confusion at times.
.

Cheetah
12-07-2012, 12:15 AM
^ Not really following you on that. Will need to look at what you are saying when my brain is more awake than it is right now.



Yup, from various definitions that I've seen of flexion, it applies both to a position (or condition) and an action (movement). Seems to me that there should be a way to make a distinction between the two uses. Sometimes it is apparent by context but this is not always the case. This leads to a bit of confusion at times.
.

i think using the same word for both is fine. it happens. like 'close the door' and 'the door is closed'

in this case, the serve, the important part is that the wrist starts from an extended position and then contributes to acceleration by moving the wrist towards a flexed position.

SystemicAnomaly
12-07-2012, 11:43 AM
... in this case, the serve, the important part is that the wrist starts from an extended position and then contributes to acceleration by moving the wrist towards a flexed position.

The wrist is actually c0cked for the serve such that it employs both extension and radial deviation. The wrist moves toward a flexion position but it really only moves to a neutral position at contact for most elite servers -- it does not move to a position of flexion -- or it is only assumes only a mild a flexion (position) on the follow-thru for some players.

Cheetah
12-07-2012, 11:58 AM
The wrist is actually c0cked for the serve such that it employs both extension and radial deviation. The wrist moves toward a flexion position but it really only moves to a neutral position at contact for most elite servers -- it does not move to a position of flexion -- or it is only assumes only a mild a flexion (position) on the follow-thru for some players.

yes. but toly didn't say the wrist moves to a flexed position. he only said it 'flexes' or 'uses flexion' which is the motion in that direction which contributes to the rhs. right?

SystemicAnomaly
12-07-2012, 12:18 PM
SA, did you play any badminton in So. Calif? I played with Jim Poole (and coached tennis against his son), as well as with Vicki Toutz (our first US Olympic Badminton Coach), Bobby Gilmore, Monica Oritz among others. My dad ran a badminton gym in Garden Grove for over 25 years, where I grew up playing...wonder if our paths crossed!

After growing up playing badminton at a competitive level, I switched to tennis in High School...at the time, no badminton team for boys. In tennis, my drops, angle volleys, overheads and serves were very good...my ground game was less skilled.

My view is that on smashes, there is more pronation, just as in tennis on the serve and overhead...the wrist snap is not a conscious component, more of a resultant move during the post contact phase.

However, in high level badminton, the underhand strokes, (namely the serve), and quick, fast exchanges are indeed wrist actions with very little arm motion or pronation as the reaction time needed would render the player helpless in defending by having the arm and racquet move too far within the quick shot. (The underhand serve has more arm motion because the server is not reacting to an incoming shot and is usually serving very high and deep--usually for singles.) Of course the backhand serve motion is all wrist when the player is trying a quick serve over the head of the returner.

Who knows, we may have crossed paths in that other world. I did play a number of tournaments in So Cal (mostly in the early/mid 1980s). A majority of the tournaments that I played, however, were in Nor Cal -- the SF bay area and the Davis/Sac area. I was at Cal Poly SLO in the early/mid 80s. A small group of us from Poly would travel either North or South on some weekends to play tournaments. It was at Cal Poly were I met Jim Poole -- he conducted badminton clinics for PE educators in the summer for several years.

When I played in So Cal I was only playing D and C level at the time. I later played at a B level in Nor Cal venues. I recall playing in Pasedena and San Diego (Balboa Park) a number of times. I also played tournies at some other So Cal locations but I do not recall where -- one of them may have been in Garden Grove. There was one tournament that was run by John Britton I remember -- could that have been Garden Grove?

In the late 80, I believe, I went down again to So Cal for an extended clinic (1 or 2 weeks long) for int/advanced players with Tariq Wadood and Dean Shoppe. Did you have any contact with Britton or these guys?

It sounds like we hit our underhand shots differently. For the BH serve I employ a fair amount of supination using a "thumb grip". I used a short grip (high on the handle) for that. I employed a moderate amount of "finger power" (squeezing with some of the fingers) and a bit of radial/ulnar deviation. Some players, often/sometimes with a different grip, will start with the wrist in flexion and will extend the wrist for the BH serve. I abandoned that BH serve technique early on.

For a high, deep FH singles serve I employed quite a bit of body rotation, shoulder action and forearm pronation. Altho' I started with the wrist c0cked for this stroke, I employed almost no wrist action for this stroke. This is the serve mechanics that I had learned from Roger Hedge and others.

I did employ a bit of wrist action on many net kill shots. However, the wrist action was actually initiated with "finger power" -- the wrist primarily follows the action created by the sqeezing of the fingers. This is something that I employ for many, not all, tennis volleys as well.

Cheetah
12-07-2012, 12:39 PM
I used to play at Balboa park every week. Lots of good players there. I saw Rod Laver there once. Did you ever play in the sunken stadium court? Really good accoustics.

rten885
12-07-2012, 09:53 PM
You do not use a wrist snap in the swing. The wrist snap will alter the original grip you put on the handle and will not let you get consistent spin. You will also get a lot less power because you won't be following through enough. The wrist snap makes the swing a lot smaller. You should be snapping your elbow in the swing and following through around your neck. If you do not see the ball kicking on the other side you are moving your wrist too much

SystemicAnomaly
12-07-2012, 11:53 PM
yes. but toly didn't say the wrist moves to a flexed position. he only said it 'flexes' or 'uses flexion' which is the motion in that direction which contributes to the rhs. right?

No, he did not explicitly state that the wrist moves to a flexed position. However, one could possibly interpret it as such. One statement of his was... "There is example of Chanelle Scheepers serve, where wrist flexion is the major contributor to the RHS... ". This taken with his fondness for the term, wrist snap, and his contention that the wrist is very active (not passive), one might assume that the flexion that he speaks of is a position of flexion. However, in a subsequent post, he made his intention clearer.


I used to play at Balboa park every week. Lots of good players there. I saw Rod Laver there once. Did you ever play in the sunken stadium court? Really good accoustics.

I recall the court that you speak of. I'm not entirely certain, but I don't believe that I ever played tennis at the Balboa Park courts. I was there to play badminton tournaments and I don't recall taking my tennis rackets with me to San Diego. If I ever get back down there, I'll have to check out the courts and the acoustics.

Cheetah
12-08-2012, 12:43 AM
No, he did not explicitly state that the wrist moves to a flexed position. However, one could possibly interpret it as such. One statement of his was... "There is example of Chanelle Scheepers serve, where wrist flexion is the major contributor to the RHS... ". This taken with his fondness for the term, wrist snap, and his contention that the wrist is very active (not passive), one might assume that the flexion that he speaks of is a position of flexion. However, in a subsequent post, he made his intention clearer.


yea, i just noticed now that toly said that flexion is the major source of power for the serve. that is 1000% not correct.

Balboa park stadium court sounds like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOKptwpu--0&t=2m17s

TheLambsheadrep
12-11-2012, 08:00 PM
I know this topic has been discussed for some time (as I have been reading this thread and from http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=112708 and http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=173305, plus http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577481/ and other articles in this thread), but as I am now truly realizing how to get more topspin on the ball (I have a few threads on how I changed the balance of my sticks to increase whippiness and therefore spin) via mechanics, I would like to inquire about it again in a slightly different way.

I hope most everyone can agree with at least this one chunk of my post's thinking - with slow motion video, it is easy to see that almost every pro (male pro at least) has their wrist lag behind the rest of their arm starting from the end of the racquet take-back through accelerating to contact (or for people that know high-low-high, when you are at low and going to high) (by the way, this topic is specifically for the forehand, even though I believe the principle is the same for backhands. If anyone wants to chime in about the BH please do so, but again, all of what I'm writing is about the FH). One of the (main?) reasons I believe this happens is because the pros get their whole body into the shot, and the turning of the hips and shoulders first drags the arm along which then drags the wrist along. Essentially, whip lash that travels through your arm, or the wave-motion of a towel when you give someone a rat tail (and the tip of the towel making contact is the wrist). I have not seen any video of Fed/Nadal/Djo locking their wrist back at a 90ish degree extension angle through the back swing, as it seems to happen spontaneously when the arm moves from the end of the racquet take-back to contact (low to high). While I've been focusing on the top male pros, I did read and see that Sharapova does lock the wrist back, just putting that out there.

Now, the question I see people disagreeing on I believe can be summed up as asking "around contact, does the wrist catch up with the rest of the arm naturally or forcibly?" I think this is being asked since people want to know how much, if any, wrist action they should voluntarily put into their forehand. When you watch the slow motion video and see the lag and bending-back (natural extension) of the wrist, it is possible to equate the wrist's movement up to and through contact as a "flick of the wrist" or "brushing up with the wrist" (which between naturally and forcibly, would qualify as forcibly). To add to this, when watching the same strokes in real time you can see that there's general acceleration through contact, and utilizing the wrist's properties as a joint to increase swing speed is certainly a feasible reason in why acceleration occurs (again, forcibly).

Personally, when I see the slow motion video and the very cool frame-by-frame pictures (starting on page 2 here), I can't help but notice that the wrist seems to move faster than the arm when they both are nearing contact. This to me highly suggests that there's a level of forced or voluntary wrist movement since the arm is not being yanked back or decelerating (if that were the case, it would mean the forehand would physically be like a rat tail, since us expert rat-tailers out there know that pulling back on the towel at the right time increases the whip/flick at the end, and leads to a more satisfying crack and "OUCH!" from the victim :twisted: ).

I am trying to see the argument that it's forearm pronation, but I'm really struggling and it may be that I don't fully understand it outside of the serve. I know that pronation for the serve accelerates the racquet through contact, so that could explain the wrist catching up with the arm at forehand contact. It can explain why the wrist turns over on almost every shot of a modern forehand (like it does for the serve). Also, it goes hand in hand with the slow motion video/pictures showing the angle between the racquet and arm to be 90ish at contact, so the motion of pronation in that case would look like someone waving "hi" sideways (fingers going from 3o'clock to 12o'clock (going past 12o'clock would requite shoulder movement) with their palm facing their opponent across the net) and would effectively brush up on the ball. But can you really have forearm pronation without any wrist involvement? I'm trying myself and watching PT videos on wrist and forearm pronation and to me they feel the same and look the same. I know I involve my wrist when I pronate on serve.



Toly, when you say Monfils and other pros have wrist ulnar deviation and pronation, you are implying that there is also wrist radial deviation through/just after the ball contact, correct (since as far as I know, wrist ulnar deviation is just the dropping of the outstretched hand sideways toward the ulnar styloid)? Like I said above, this would look like someone waving "hi" sideways around contact and would effectively brush up on the ball, right? Then after contact the wrist turns over (you point out that the racquet is closed) so the arm can fully extend/follow through safely and naturally?

toly
12-11-2012, 10:09 PM
Toly, when you say Monfils and other pros have wrist ulnar deviation and pronation, you are implying that there is also wrist radial deviation through/just after the ball contact, correct (since as far as I know, wrist ulnar deviation is just the dropping of the outstretched hand sideways toward the ulnar styloid)? Like I said above, this would look like someone waving "hi" sideways around contact and would effectively brush up on the ball, right? Then after contact the wrist turns over (you point out that the racquet is closed) so the arm can fully extend/follow through safely and naturally?
About wrist ulnar deviation, see please http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...09#post6013209 post #180 and about forces - http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...38#post7046738 post #103.

TheLambsheadrep
12-11-2012, 10:57 PM
Rod Cross does say this in his "Wrist Snap In the Serve" article (a good read, but kinda hard to differentiate between when he's talking about a serve or ground stroke):

"The action of the wrist in a groundstroke is quite different to that in a serve and it depends on the speed at which the player swings the racquet. At low speed, a player can keep the wrist locked during the whole swing. In a high speed swing the racquet will rotate so fast that it will forcefully unlock the wrist if the player tries to keep it locked. Usually, the player relaxes the wrist beforehand and allows the racquet to pull the wrist around smoothly. However, the player can still flick the racquet head vertically upwards using wrist action to generate topspin, even though the racquet pulls the wrist around in the horizontal direction."

So he does acknowledge that the wrist can be used to flick the racquet head vertically. He doesn't say the pros do this, but I have a feeling he put it in there for a reason...

TheLambsheadrep
12-11-2012, 11:41 PM
About wrist ulnar deviation see please http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...09#post6013209 post #180 and about forces - http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...38#post7046738 post #103.

those links dont work btw

toly
12-12-2012, 05:02 AM
those links dont work btw

Try these: about wrist ulnar deviation, see please http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=6013209#post6013209 post #180

and about forces - http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=7046738#post7046738 post #103. :confused:

toly
12-12-2012, 05:30 AM
"However, the player can still flick the racquet head vertically upwards using wrist action to generate topspin, even though the racquet pulls the wrist around in the horizontal direction."

So he does acknowledge that the wrist can be used to flick the racquet head vertically. He doesn't say the pros do this, but I have a feeling he put it in there for a reason...
You can do it if your grip is continental/eastern, but you don’t want to do that in case of semiwestern/western grip.

TheLambsheadrep
12-12-2012, 08:02 AM
You can do it if your grip is continental/eastern, but you don’t want to do that in case of semiwestern/western grip.

Why just C or E? In a lot of the photos for SW and even W forehands, the racquet face is perpendicular to the ground at about 90 degrees at contact. I would think as long as that is the case, vertically flicking/brushing up on the ball with the wrist is fine regardless of the forehand grip...

toly
12-12-2012, 09:13 AM
Why just C or E? In a lot of the photos for SW and even W forehands, the racquet face is perpendicular to the ground at about 90 degrees at contact. I would think as long as that is the case, vertically flicking/brushing up on the ball with the wrist is fine regardless of the forehand grip...
http://i55.tinypic.com/4zynwm.jpg

Sharapova's grip is close to SW/Western. According to photo above she cannot use wrist radial deviation to create topspin. This motion moves the racquet away from the ball. That is why she employs very energetically wrist ulnar deviation that moves the racquet forward.

TheLambsheadrep
12-12-2012, 04:11 PM
Does this video show the motions of ulnar/radial deviation you are referring to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz6SRYbbZ_k ? And in the case of a forehand motion, the guy modeling would just supinate his arms 90 degrees? I just want to make sure we are on the same page

toly
12-12-2012, 04:24 PM
Does this video show the motions of ulnar/radial deviation you are referring to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz6SRYbbZ_k ? And in the case of a forehand motion, the guy modeling would just supinate his arms 90 degrees? I just want to make sure we are on the same page

http://i50.tinypic.com/15flz0j.jpg

TheLambsheadrep
12-12-2012, 04:56 PM
http://i55.tinypic.com/4zynwm.jpg

Sharapova's grip is close to SW/Western. According to photo above she cannot use wrist radial deviation to create topspin. This motion moves the racquet away from the ball. That is why she employs very energetically wrist ulnar deviation that moves the racquet forward.

OK, I think it's because this picture looks like it was taken after contact, but I don't see why she couldn't use wrist radial deviation if the picture is of before contact to brush up on the ball. Since the racquet face is a little more angled down to the ground and pointing between 1 and 2o'clock out from her body, it would just naturally end with the wrist turning over so her hand would essentially be making a "thumbs down." Does that not count as radial deviation?

LeeD
12-12-2012, 05:07 PM
Looks like she's just turning over her forarm, pronating after hitting the ball to me.

Cheetah
12-12-2012, 05:55 PM
http://i55.tinypic.com/4zynwm.jpg

Sharapova's grip is close to SW/Western. According to photo above she cannot use wrist radial deviation to create topspin. This motion moves the racquet away from the ball. That is why she employs very energetically wrist ulnar deviation that moves the racquet forward.

Omg. what the...??
No offense Toly but this has got to be the most incorrect post I have ever seen here on TT.

I cannot believe what I just read.

toly
12-13-2012, 08:00 AM
OK, I think it's because this picture looks like it was taken after contact, but I don't see why she couldn't use wrist radial deviation if the picture is of before contact to brush up on the ball. Since the racquet face is a little more angled down to the ground and pointing between 1 and 2o'clock out from her body, it would just naturally end with the wrist turning over so her hand would essentially be making a "thumbs down." Does that not count as radial deviation?

http://i46.tinypic.com/imqmtd.jpg

The wrist can rotate the racquet about two orthogonal axes. Djokovic palm is horizontal, thus wrist deviations can rotate the racquet about vertical axis only. In picture 1, from above view, Djokovic rotates the racquet counterclockwise by using wrist ulnar deviation and racquet moves forward. If he used wrist radial deviation, picture 2, the racquet would move backward, away from the ball.

toly
12-13-2012, 08:03 AM
Omg. what the...??
No offense Toly but this has got to be the most incorrect post I have ever seen here on TT.

I cannot believe what I just read.
You must learn medical terminology, otherwise it is impossible to communicate with you.:shock:

charliefedererer
12-13-2012, 08:35 AM
This is a trebuchet catapult.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Trebuchet_Castelnaud.jpg/350px-Trebuchet_Castelnaud.jpg

This is a schematic of a trebuchet in action:

http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/00627/trebuchetphy2.jpg

Note how limp it keeps it's "wrist".
[Really no surprise - there is no "muscle" to keep the wrist in any one position - it is after all just a rope!]

But man, oh man!

Just look at that great "wrist" action - seen even better in this simulation:

http://www.algobeautytreb.com/gifs_f/treb4.GIF




Sort of reminds me of the great "wrist action" in a tennis serve strobe photo:

http://people.rit.edu/andpph/text-figures/strobe-tennis-serve-1.jpg




The above doesn't conclusively "prove" the "wrist snap" in tennis is a passive motion, resulting from a "loose wrist" being allowed to move quickly through its natural range of motion because of forces being generated much more proximally.

But it does get one thinking ...

charliefedererer
12-13-2012, 09:38 AM
The forearm muscles that control the wrist [there is no muscle in the wrist - it is a joint] can be activated relatively early in the forward stroke to maximize a "laid back wrist" and slightly delay the forward slap - but in the power phase of the stroke it is "letting go" of any built up tension that will allow the greatest power in the stroke.

But even in "laying back the wrist" it would be more productive to do so passively as a result of holding the arm in the proper position so that rotational and linear forces generated from the body leave the relatively heavy racquet and arm behind, as the body begins to whip around and forward.

user92626
12-13-2012, 09:56 AM
Charlie,

So where does the bulk of the power come from? What should I focus on to generate as much power as I could? Legs, hip, shoulder, or what? Thanks.

What's the exercise for that?

Cheetah
12-13-2012, 12:09 PM
Charlie,

So where does the bulk of the power come from? What should I focus on to generate as much power as I could? Legs, hip, shoulder, or what? Thanks.

What's the exercise for that?

Power comes from timing and technique. It comes from all the above groups working together. If you try to isolate one of those areas as the main source of power you'll most likely have a weak or broken kinetic chain. You should work towards achieving the fastest rhs and not the 'most power'.

bhupaes
12-13-2012, 01:12 PM
http://i46.tinypic.com/imqmtd.jpg

The wrist can rotate the racquet about two orthogonal axes. Djokovic palm is horizontal, thus wrist deviations can rotate the racquet about vertical axis only. In picture 1, from above view, Djokovic rotates the racquet counterclockwise by using wrist ulnar deviation and racquet moves forward. If he used wrist radial deviation, picture 2, the racquet would move backward, away from the ball.

Toly, in this picture, the racquet head is almost surely also moving upwards and across, in addition to the forward direction. Wrist movement, if any, would most likely be a (passive) flexing movement which (due to the western grip) moves the racquet mostly upwards (one reason why western grips yield more spin - an eastern grip would result in more forward movement when the wrist flexes). The forward movement in this picture most likely comes from a number of sources, a significant component coming from ISR (which also moves the racquet up and across), and the rest coming from the shoulder and other sources. Ulnar (or radial) deviation, if any, would be insignificant, and probably only done for fine control of the racquet head.

A case can be made that all active movements of the wrist are for purely control purposes, and any contribution to power is incidental. But we've discussed this many times before...

TheCheese
12-13-2012, 01:14 PM
People I play against always note that my strokes are very smooth and "wristy". However, I'm not actively using my wrist at all. The secret is pronating your forearm and getting a prestretch that releases as you swing forward.

toly
12-13-2012, 02:02 PM
Toly, in this picture, the racquet head is almost surely also moving upwards and across, in addition to the forward direction. Wrist movement, if any, would most likely be a (passive) flexing movement which (due to the western grip) moves the racquet mostly upwards (one reason why western grips yield more spin - an eastern grip would result in more forward movement when the wrist flexes). The forward movement in this picture most likely comes from a number of sources, a significant component coming from ISR (which also moves the racquet up and across), and the rest coming from the shoulder and other sources. Ulnar (or radial) deviation, if any, would be insignificant, and probably only done for fine control of the racquet head.

A case can be made that all active movements of the wrist are for purely control purposes, and any contribution to power is incidental. But we've discussed this many times before...
The question was about wrist deviations. So, I just tried to clarify this matter and nothing else.:)

About passive/active wrist I explained in post #103. What is wrong with my explanation? :confused:

julian
12-13-2012, 02:31 PM
The question was about wrist deviations. So, I just tried to clarify this matter and nothing else.:)

About passive/active wrist I explained in post #103. What is wrong with my explanation? :confused:
Two simple pieces of info
1.there is a related link
http://www.virtualtennisacademy.com/forums/index.php?action=showthread&threadid=462

2.Next blog by tennisspeed will be talking about radial deviation

please see
http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2012/12/a-roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part.html

3.The result of google
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=forehand+%2B+ulnar+deviation&oq=%22forehand%22%2B%22ulnar+de&gs_l=hp.1.0.33i21.2702.13392.0.16952.20.20.0.0.0.0 .136.1657.17j3.20.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.dNIF1xLXVGs&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355272958,d.dmQ&fp=2b373a0ddae158d8&bpcl=39942515&biw=1173&bih=577
provides more references
I did "forehand"+"ulnar deviation" in google

PS
I am a bit chaotic but I do NOT have a laptop on me

bhupaes
12-13-2012, 02:31 PM
The question was about wrist deviations. So, I just tried to clarify this matter and nothing else.:)

About passive/active wrist I explained in post #103. What is wrong with my explanation? :confused:

With all due respect, toly, I believe you are basing your analysis on an incorrect model of the forehand. The centrifugal force, IMO, is inconsequential - let's say it simply prevents the racquet from flying off. What matters at that point is the forward speed that's being imparted to the racquet as it is being pulled towards the contact point, and the stretch that's happening to the muscles that control the wrist. At some point before contact, ISR happens, and the hand is pulled in. This releases the stretched wrist, among other things, and causes the racquet to whip into the ball. There is no discernible ulnar deviation, and almost all the wrist movement is passive. Yes, the ISR will lift the racquet head, but also move it forward into contact, and will eventually pull the racquet across the body.

user92626
12-13-2012, 04:53 PM
Power comes from timing and technique. It comes from all the above groups working together. If you try to isolate one of those areas as the main source of power you'll most likely have a weak or broken kinetic chain. You should work towards achieving the fastest rhs and not the 'most power'.

I was afraid that someone would answer "timing" and "technique". That answer really doesn't explain anything, lead the conversation anywhere. :)

Ok, so I hear that you shouldn't isolate any one area, and work on fastest rhs. In term of biomechanics, what your body feels, what should I be focusing on? I mean, if I were to teach a kid to swim fast, I'd tell him to focus on kicking his feet faster, etc.

TheCheese
12-13-2012, 05:01 PM
I was afraid that someone would answer "timing" and "technique". That answer really doesn't explain anything, lead the conversation anywhere. :)

Ok, so I hear that you shouldn't isolate any one area, and work on fastest rhs. In term of biomechanics, what your body feels, what should I be focusing on? I mean, if I were to teach a kid to swim fast, I'd tell him to focus on kicking his feet faster, etc.

Focus on getting that prestretch feeling in your arm. It feels like loading a slingshot and letting it release up and across the ball.

How you do this is a whole other conversation in itself. Hint: Pronate during the takeback.

Cheetah
12-13-2012, 05:01 PM
I was afraid that someone would answer "timing" and "technique". That answer really doesn't explain anything, lead the conversation anywhere. :)

Ok, so I hear that you shouldn't isolate any one area, and work on fastest rhs. In term of biomechanics, what your body feels, what should I be focusing on? I mean, if I were to teach a kid to swim fast, I'd tell him to focus on kicking his feet faster, etc.

focus on the kinetic chain, being loose, proper footwork, weight transfer, extenstion, SSC, leg push, proper contact point for your grip - out in front, right combo of pronation, isr and deviation, etc. all of those things contribute to power.

What do you expect us to say without a video of your strokes?

Or you could just flex your wrist more as Toly says. :)

rkelley
12-13-2012, 10:16 PM
I was afraid that someone would answer "timing" and "technique". That answer really doesn't explain anything, lead the conversation anywhere. :)

Ok, so I hear that you shouldn't isolate any one area, and work on fastest rhs. In term of biomechanics, what your body feels, what should I be focusing on? I mean, if I were to teach a kid to swim fast, I'd tell him to focus on kicking his feet faster, etc.

focus on the kinetic chain, being loose, proper footwork, weight transfer, extenstion, SSC, leg push, proper contact point for your grip - out in front, right combo of pronation, isr and deviation, etc. all of those things contribute to power.

What do you expect us to say without a video of your strokes?

Or you could just flex your wrist more as Toly says. :)

The problem is that it's more complicated than simple advice. And the correct advice for you is going to depend to some extent on your swing, grips, etc.

For instance on one of these fh threads we were talking about how Cheetah and I focus on different things when we hit our fhs:
- I use an almost SW grip and I'm always thinking about swinging up.
- Cheetah uses an almost W grip and thinks about swinging through.

The results are about the same, but because of our grips we focus on somewhat different things in some cases. OTOH, we both set-up semi-open when we can, try to be relaxed in our set-up, keep our head still and eyes on the contact zone, bend our legs and use our legs to drive the kinetic chain - so there are a lot of similarities too. I also always think about keep my wrist and forearm neutral during set-up and keeping my racquet forward (because I tend to take my backswing too far back).

charliefedererer
12-14-2012, 09:11 AM
Charlie,

So where does the bulk of the power come from? What should I focus on to generate as much power as I could? Legs, hip, shoulder, or what? Thanks.

What's the exercise for that?

You've already got great answers above - there just is no one "secret" that will unlock more power.

http://chrismaddencartoons.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/guru-meaning-of-life-cartoon.jpg?w=630


Clearly, the source of power in tennis is using all the components of the kinetic chain firing precisely at the right time - any lag or early firing interferes with the build up in power.

http://pilatesonfifth.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/ground-reaction-force-for-tennis-serve_pilates.jpg?w=450&h=315

The above is an approximation - we can't break a person down an isolate one aspect like we can a machine.

If you want an intellectual understanding of the biomechanics of the serve and forehand, I would urge you take even the limited subscription to tennisplayer.net and read the fascinating analyses by Brian Gordon [I think he does a great job of explaining his pioneering computer modeling research in easy to understand terminology.]
(Because of copyright laws, I don't have a sample of the system he uses, but it perhaps can be considered an extension of the APAS system analysis developded by Vic Braden and And Fitzell. Even without narration or explanation, your own observation can see the leg pushoff, core/hip rotation, setting up the arm in the correct orientation to transfer all that power eventually through the wrist/hand/racquet to the ball.
Roger Federer Forehand on the APAS System http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPLmCqGIotM
Andy Roddick Serve on the APAS System http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqSKBBxO3qU

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7Poiv0001SM/TeEG6FkJk-I/AAAAAAAAAeM/PL1MNooXld4/s320/TimelessTennisTheFedererForehand.jpg

[A word on timing. Because Brian Gordon can place sensors all over any tennis players body, he can determine not only if all the body movements are correct, but if they are firing their legs, shoulders, or arms a tiny fraction of a second too early or too late so that they can begin corrective action.
http://www.3d-tennis.com/ocuspta/bestfh.html ]





This thread is about "wrist snap".

As mentioned above the bulk of power comes from the whole body acting in a co-ordinated fashion.

Just as the power in a car is its engine and the gears and differential "only" serve to transfer the power to the wheels, so too does the wrist "only" transfer the power to hand/racket.

But engineers spend countless hours working on gearboxes and differentials to transfer that power to the engine.
It is only natural that we tennis players try to understand what is happening at the wrist to transfer that energy from the body through the hand and racquet to the ball.




What exercise to do?

A basic principle is that the closer the exercise is to the sports activity, the quicker you see results.

So spending more time practicing/playing tennis - and being certain you have correct technique - leads to the quickest gains in power.

But there are three problems with only playing tennis and not doing an off court conditioning program:

1. Muscular weakness prevents proper stroke set up/execution. Many have weaknesses that prevent them from doing what the pros do for power [an example would be difficulty balancing going into a deep knee bend, shoulder wind and backward lean from the heels in the trophy position - some players really need to do squats to have the leg, core and muscles that connect the leg to the core strength to get into a powerful trophy position from which they can explode.]

2. Overuse injuries. Tennis requires countless hours on the court practicing bashing the ball. The "hitting muscles" are getting stronger and stronger and can overpower the "resisting" or "stopping" muscles. Too much energy is then
transferred to non-elastic ligaments, tendons and joints. Overuse injuries result. Doing off court strengthening exercises increases the strength in elastic muscle to absorb all the hitting energy, and allow a player to bash with a decreased chance of incurring an overuse injury.

3. Explosive plyometric exercises cause overuse injuries. Many players decide to take up explosive jumping and medicine ball throwing exercises to increase power [Power = Force x Velocity]. But explosive power exercises have a high liklehood of causing overuse injuries for the same reason I described above for tennis overuse injuries. Only now those players are doing two activities that may result in an overuse injury - plyometrics plus tennis! Any surprise many "break down"? So a period of increasing overall strength better prepares the muscles/tendons/ligaments/joints to absorb plyometrics and tennis.


For all the above reasons, a total body workout program divided into strength gains before plyometrics is recommended. If you are interested, I urge you to read The Elite Approach to Tennis Strength Training http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/tennis-strength-training.html
In it, there is a stress on a shoulder, forearm and wrist program of exercises done concurrently. The exercises listed are good, but the best I have found for this is the Thrower's Ten Exercises http://www.muhlenberg.edu/pdf/main/athletics/athletic_training/throwers10.pdf

I hope this helps.

TheLambsheadrep
12-14-2012, 06:33 PM
Focus on getting that prestretch feeling in your arm. It feels like loading a slingshot and letting it release up and across the ball.

How you do this is a whole other conversation in itself. Hint: Pronate during the takeback.

Watching some of the pro's back swings, you can def see that their forearms do pronate (almost starting from when their off hand leaves the racquet) for at least their forehand takebacks because their palms are facing down and the racquet face that would make contact is parallel to the ground (or close to it) right before they go "low-to-high."

So there's pronation early before contact which relates to the racquet whipping around when you accelerate low-to-high to the ball. Is that pronation what causes the natural motion of the SSC aka the wrist turning over itself and finish "thumbs down" when you follow through across your body? Or is there another pronation just before/at contact that turns the wrist over and is mistaken for wrist action?

I asked the question above because I can achieve the "thumbs down" finish by using my wrist in a WW-esque follow through, but now want it to occur from the SSC. After looking into this subject and learning about keeping the palm back and down on the back swing, I want to make this my natural swing and break the habit of using my wrist (using it a lot, at least). I have changed some of my thinking from the very long post I have on page 7. The topic of ulnar deviation to flatten out a shot is interesting though, especially now that I understand what Toly was saying. I just can't see someone that uses a full western FW doing this - I tried a few air strokes and it never felt like I would be able to control where the ball went. Now, I do have a SW FW (and a pretty bad real western FW at that) and I can def imagine it working. It's just a little more slap to the ball.

TheLambsheadrep
12-14-2012, 06:37 PM
Now, I do have a SW FW (and a pretty bad real western FW at that) and I can def imagine it working. It's just a little more slap to the ball.

But whether this is the right way to flatten out a shot or not, I do not know

julian
12-15-2012, 07:40 AM
http://i50.tinypic.com/15flz0j.jpg

Hi,
may I ask you a favor.
Could you provide a verbal definition of radial deviation?
Thank you
The picture above does NOT say whether it is a planar movement or NOT.
If you can address this issue it would nice as well
PS
a possible definition of ulnar deviation from Wikipedia below
---->
Ulnar deviation is also a physiological movement of the wrist, where the hand including the fingers move towards the ulna. Ulnar deviation is a disorder in which flexion by ulnar nerve innervated muscles is intact while flexion on the median nerve side is not.

toly
12-15-2012, 04:38 PM
Hi,
may I ask you a favor.
Could you provide a verbal definition of radial deviation?
Thank you
The picture above does NOT say whether it is a planar movement or NOT.
If you can address this issue it would nice as well
PS
a possible definition of ulnar deviation from Wikipedia below
---->
Ulnar deviation is also a physiological movement of the wrist, where the hand including the fingers move towards the ulna. Ulnar deviation is a disorder in which flexion by ulnar nerve innervated muscles is intact while flexion on the median nerve side is not.
Radial deviation is movement of the wrist, where the hand moves towards the radius (bone of the forehand).

BTW, the question about planar motion is very difficult. Brian Gordon wrote somewhere that wrist motions are very complicated that’s why so far nobody was able to create math model of the wrist motions.

IMO, if the wrist is near neutral position, from the wrist flexion/extension standpoint, the wrist deviations can move in plane. If there is a lot of wrist flexion or extension the motion would be restricted and more complicated. :confused:

TheLambsheadrep
12-20-2012, 09:30 PM
So there's pronation early before contact which relates to the racquet whipping around when you accelerate low-to-high to the ball. Is that pronation what causes the natural motion of the SSC aka the wrist turning over itself and finish "thumbs down" when you follow through across your body? Or is there another pronation just before/at contact that turns the wrist over and is mistaken for wrist action?

Cheetah
12-20-2012, 10:57 PM
So there's pronation early before contact which relates to the racquet whipping around when you accelerate low-to-high to the ball. Is that pronation what causes the natural motion of the SSC aka the wrist turning over itself and finish "thumbs down" when you follow through across your body? Or is there another pronation just before/at contact that turns the wrist over and is mistaken for wrist action?

I wouldn't think of it that way.
Depending on the shot the pronation can occur before contact or after contact. There can be forearm pronation as well as pronation from the shoulder. There are several factors which come into play such as personal style and flair, grip, intent etc. There's also wrist ulnar and radial deviation.

SSC is something else and happens earlier in the swing and is not caused by pronation.

TheLambsheadrep
12-21-2012, 10:35 AM
I wouldn't think of it that way.
Depending on the shot the pronation can occur before contact or after contact. There can be forearm pronation as well as pronation from the shoulder. There are several factors which come into play such as personal style and flair, grip, intent etc. There's also wrist ulnar and radial deviation.

SSC is something else and happens earlier in the swing and is not caused by pronation.

So you're saying the "right way" to swing includes pronation and wrist deviation(s) but not wrist flexion (or extension..?). And that the pronation and wrist deviation(s) can occur at any given time during the swing depending on the type of shot?

So pretty much the general rule is that there is no order to how these movements happen, but that they will happen as long as you don't try to force anything? I'm used to teaching younger children who need steps 1, 2, and 3 to hit a forehand or it's all a big mess, so to hear that there's no given order to the pronations and wrist deviations on a standard forehand is weird to me

toly
12-21-2012, 11:44 AM
So you're saying the "right way" to swing includes pronation and wrist deviation(s) but not wrist flexion (or extension..?). And that the pronation and wrist deviation(s) can occur at any given time during the swing depending on the type of shot?

So pretty much the general rule is that there is no order to how these movements happen, but that they will happen as long as you don't try to force anything? I'm used to teaching younger children who need steps 1, 2, and 3 to hit a forehand or it's all a big mess, so to hear that there's no given order to the pronations and wrist deviations on a standard forehand is weird to me
IMO there are at least three completely different types of forehands with semiwestern/western grip:
1. Flat FH
2. Topspin FH (WW FH)
3. Hard topspin FH
Which one do you want to talk first? :confused:

Cheetah
12-21-2012, 12:36 PM
So you're saying the "right way" to swing includes pronation and wrist deviation(s) but not wrist flexion (or extension..?). And that the pronation and wrist deviation(s) can occur at any given time during the swing depending on the type of shot?

So pretty much the general rule is that there is no order to how these movements happen, but that they will happen as long as you don't try to force anything? I'm used to teaching younger children who need steps 1, 2, and 3 to hit a forehand or it's all a big mess, so to hear that there's no given order to the pronations and wrist deviations on a standard forehand is weird to me

I didn't say anything about flexion or extension. Forgot to mention them.
They are in the mix too.

I didn't say there is 'no order'. The order and degree can be forced intentionally with muscle control or you can force the order with the setup in the takeback and just 'letting it happen in the order you intended ' or you can just let it rip and see what happens however I think most people control what happens with one of the 1st 2 methods.
It depends on the player and the situation.

I'm not a coach and have no experience teaching tennis children but I would suspect there is more of a structured swing plan implemented for them.

You can accomplish the same type of shot many different ways. I can hit a high heavy topspin cc shot several ways. I can use forearm pronation early or late or almost no pronation or utilizing isr for the spin or use a very steep low to high swing with x amount of deviation or a more level swing with y amount of deviation and z amount of pronation or using a pretty locked hitting structure with a ww or with a semi straight arm and wristing it with a whippy type swing etc.
It just depends on how i'm feeling or how i'm hitting that day or how well my legs are moving and how much time i have to set up etc.

I don't think there's a set preferred order. But maybe some coaches on here will tell you otherwise. It's simple and yet complicated which is why many of us spend a lot of time here discussing such things.