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Graphiteking
12-06-2012, 05:32 AM
Present- Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcrvZryZYg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 

Sent from my iPhoneCheck out this video on YouTube:
Past- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYzC0WAfL5k&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Sent from my iPhone

morten
12-06-2012, 06:15 AM
looks good GK

Graphiteking
12-06-2012, 06:17 AM
Had to change due to ff. Any advice to better the serve is greatly appreciated.

Bergboy123
12-06-2012, 10:17 AM
Do you like the change? Pros and cons of either that stand out to you? I'm considering making the same change. I know that one isn't necessarily better than the other but for the amount of work I put into my pinpoint I feel it should be better than it is.

Graphiteking
12-06-2012, 10:28 AM
@bergboy123, no ff, better consistency and better placement on platform. I have noticed my mph has went down. Overall I like the change.

sureshs
12-06-2012, 10:38 AM
Had to change due to ff. Any advice to better the serve is greatly appreciated.

Great job!

pvaudio
12-06-2012, 11:18 AM
Your mph has gone down because you're literally hitting the warmup version of what you COULD be hitting. Seriously, you have no knee bend at all. You are simply arming the serve at this point. Get a deeper knee bend, keep the tossing arm up a long as possible, and go for it. I'll put it like this: you've made an enormous change, and you have not even scratched the surface of what you are capable of. :)

boramiNYC
12-06-2012, 11:30 AM
your pronation lacks authority. learn how the racquet should move outward and down during pronation. exaggerate this for practice to make the forearm muscles stronger and control better. this should give you more topspin and control. torso rotation is a lot better after the change. now the pronation should be coupled with that rotation.

and contact a little more above the head than out in front and slightly into the court.

sureshs
12-06-2012, 12:00 PM
How come LeeD has not yet commented on this?

LeeD
12-06-2012, 12:20 PM
Just got back from courts hitting 50 platform serves, then back to my normal pinpoint for maybe 15.
OP swings the same with either technique, but moves his body into the court on pinpoint, which gives more power and less consistency, as he said.
I think a problem here....OP almost pancakes his trophy, so his loop starting the forward swing is only partial, and not enough to give him full power. if he pointed his racket straight up at the sky every time, he'd get more easy power.
OP is a big strong guy, and should serve effectively with any technique. His combi flat/slice serve is what he seems to hit, on every serve.
Not wild about the rapid fire serve warmup timing, as he never concentrates to hit a real serve, either fast or safe.
Both techniques were fine, but I like a pinpoint where the backfoot steps behind the front, not in front and to the side.
OP's serve is plenty good for 4.0, and he's possibly getting too old for 4.5 like me.

rufus_smith
12-06-2012, 04:34 PM
Oh yeah I remember you, Graphite King, from the summer post. Your serve looks much improved. Hope these guys TT advice was at least partly responsible. If 90% of your serves in that new video were in the box, you probably don't need to fix much, imo. You don't need a pinpoint stance for a faster serve. Its fast enough for ntrp 4.0 for sure. If its slower, it could be due to weather changes anyway. Like these guys say you can get it even faster by pre-coiling more in the torso, shoulder, and elbow and wrist. Might be better to work on placement or different spins first. gl

Kalin
12-06-2012, 07:27 PM
I usually serve pinpoint but played a whole match recently using platform to minimize the effect of a small injury.

While feeling a bit awkward, it did force me into a bigger shoulder turn and a deeper knee bend, things that often become slovenly with the pinpoint where I would just open the shoulders in advance and arm the serve in. As a result, I was able to hit some very good angles with good spin.

As I play less than before I've often thought of switching to platform since it does seem the more consistent move

Graphiteking
12-08-2012, 05:17 AM
Thanks for the advice guys, I do see myself not getting my legs more involved and that is affecting my mph. I went out last night worked on all the issues you all gave me. I will be posting new vids soon. Oan, leeD I will get to 4.5. NEVER TOO OLD..

Wilander Fan
12-08-2012, 06:23 AM
Coincidentally, I also decided to try platform today after pinpoint for my entire life. I only played a set but I noticed better consistency but less spin and power. I made the change because I noticed on video the pinpoint was much more vulnerable to slightly off tosses since you are committing yourself very early in the motion as your entire body is angled towards the expected toss. Platform makes you wait a bit. I did notice I was hitting more pace later into the set so I dont think the sacrifice in power permanent but there does seem to be a big benefit in consistency and balance.

Anyway, you can pronate more if you try to hit up at the ball and not through it. Also, I noticed that you have to leave the ground/jump from the platform more than the pinpoint in order to get any power.

LeeD
12-08-2012, 01:41 PM
There is some time needed to adjust to the platform motion. I think the loss in power is much less than we must suspect, as the wrist hinge and arm snap can be a snappier movement getting more rackethead speed without as much body forward movement, and ab crunch and twisting can be added with the feet pivoting off a more solid platform.
Hit another 50 odd platform first flat serves. 52 degrees, old flat balls of at least 5 months, every single serve can bounce IN and still make the backstop around knee to thigh high, with one in 4 bouncing much higher...either the balls were better or the snap was quicker.
One thing that seem to help ME was trophying with the racket pointed straight up at the sky, elbow very bent.
Strange, that is NOT how I hit my pinpoint serves for 30 years, but it works with platform for me.

LeeD
12-08-2012, 03:56 PM
Another weirdo now that I have time to crunch the #'s.
Seems platform might work with more open stance, and a stunted trophy sorta like Roddick's. You whip the racket, snap it, instead of long takeback and swing.
Gonna try some more tomorrow. Weird, to wander towards Roddick's style now that he has retired.
Anyways, it seems like easier power, which I need.

martini1
12-08-2012, 06:30 PM
Present- Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcrvZryZYg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 

Sent from my iPhoneCheck out this video on YouTube:
Past- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYzC0WAfL5k&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Sent from my iPhone

Your platform looks better than your old serve. Your old serve is more like a step up than a pinpoint to me. Not enough toes and not brought together enough to me. I am a platform guy myself.

yemenmocha
12-08-2012, 07:24 PM
nice serve Graphite King

mbm0912
12-08-2012, 08:43 PM
I just made the switch from pinpoint to platform as well. I wish I did this earlier!

Kalin
12-09-2012, 10:04 PM
Guys, one question- I remember Bollettieri in an old video advising to always keep the entire weight on the front foot during the pinpoint serve even after the rear foot is brought alongside it.

Where is the weight during the platform serve? Is it mostly front or evenly balanced? Also, does it shift more to the forward foot during the serve motion or does it stay the same?? Many thanks for any info!!

TomT
12-09-2012, 10:19 PM
Present- Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcrvZryZYg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 

Sent from my iPhoneCheck out this video on YouTube:
Past- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYzC0WAfL5k&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Sent from my iPhoneNot qualified to critique, Graphiteking, but enjoyed the vids. Thanks. I would love to be able to hit a pinpoint serve (even though some of the best players hit platform serves). Have been working on it a little. Wider stance in the beginning, bringing back foot up, more of a perpendicular angle to the court seems to produce better, more reliable, serves. Knee bend and subsequent explosion from that is a problem for me. It's difficult getting out of the habit of my old, pretty lazy, way of serving because it's just so easy and consistent, and at lower level tennis very effective. But if I'm going to be competitive with better players then I know that I'm going to have to make some substantial changes in my serve (among other things).

You look somewhat younger than me so I'm supposing that your potential for improvement is greater.

Nice posts by LeeD and others, imo.

Anyway, it looks to me like you have a great potential for improvement, and that your serve is coming along nicely. Best wishes. Keep working. More vids please. :)

Best of luck. Here's a vid of my serve, so you can see where I'm coming from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgUkTtJsDsc

I like your serve a LOT better than mine. So I'll be rewatching your vids a lot to try to learn exactly why that is. Thanks for posting.

ShoeShiner
12-09-2012, 11:24 PM
You have good serves.
I changed my serve from pinpoint to platform too. It is good for my back health.

rufus_smith
12-10-2012, 06:47 AM
...
Best of luck. Here's a vid of my serve, so you can see where I'm coming from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgUkTtJsDsc


Definitely cool. I especially like the slow mo repeat of your down the T ace! You move pretty darn well for your age too.

(btw, how are your reindeer doing?)

Graphiteking
12-10-2012, 07:30 AM
@kalin, my weight transfers as the motion goes. At the beginning of my serve my weight is on the front foot, but as I rock back the weight transfers as I coil.@TomT, that's some awesome shorts!! I like your serve, especially for 3.0. My change has decrease my % of DF. @rufus the reindeer jab was was pretty good!!

mbm0912
12-10-2012, 07:54 AM
are those boardshorts or tennis shorts?

Nellie
12-10-2012, 09:20 AM
I think the new motion is much better. Keep it up!

Regarding improvement, you are slicing every serve (not a bad thing if that is what your want) because you are tossing slightly to your right and are entirely open (chested pointed to the ball before you swing). Because, you have uncoiled before swinging and your power is entirely from the shoulders, and a lot of that energy is going to the slice spin.

If you want more power, start with more rotation (show more back to the ball) and toss a little higher and further to left (its a pretty small difference - talking about 2-3 inches). Try to delay opening your shoulders for slight second - you may feel rushed it first, but it will really help your kenetic chain.

Kalin
12-11-2012, 03:36 PM
King, thanks for the comment! I'll keep experimenting with the weight to see what's best

TomT
12-12-2012, 07:31 PM
Definitely cool. I especially like the slow mo repeat of your down the T ace! You move pretty darn well for your age too.

(btw, how are your reindeer doing?)Very funny Rufus. :) Yeah, I should probably let the beard grow and make some money as a Santa Claus. Anyway, the down the T ace on a second serve surprised my younger and more skilled opponent. As for movement, I recently got bageled by a 72 year old guy who hits flat and hard, has no serve, but moves MUCH better. Against the young guy in the serving vid, I might have won given some luck and a slightly different attitude. Against the older guy ... no chance.

TomT
12-12-2012, 07:33 PM
are those boardshorts or tennis shorts?Boardshorts. :)

TomT
12-12-2012, 07:49 PM
@kalin, my weight transfers as the motion goes. At the beginning of my serve my weight is on the front foot, but as I rock back the weight transfers as I coil.@TomT, that's some awesome shorts!! I like your serve, especially for 3.0. My change has decrease my % of DF. @rufus the reindeer jab was was pretty good!!Gking, it looks to me like you're on your way to developing a VERY effective serve. Thanks for the shorts comment, and please don't encourage rufus's sarcasm. :)

Beyond, say, 3.5, my serve is not a weapon. Your serve motion, on the other hand, seems to me to have very good potential. Like 4.0+. What are you doing that I'm not doing that makes your serve more formidable?

LeeD
12-12-2012, 07:52 PM
He's got a live arm, you don't.
You're both big, strong guys.
I"m almost 64, can still throw a football close to 50 yards first try, no warmup.
And using Wilson balls on a warm (65 degree) day, bounce my first serves chest high against the backboard, when it goes IN.
Lots of my normal second serves, if it get past the opponent, bounce higher against the backboard, on IN serves.
And that's with a 100 mph first flat serve.

TomT
12-12-2012, 08:15 PM
He's got a live arm, you don't.
You're both big, strong guys.
I"m almost 64, can still throw a football close to 50 yards first try, no warmup.
And using Wilson balls on a warm (65 degree) day, bounce my first serves chest high against the backboard, when it goes IN.
Lots of my normal second serves, if it get past the opponent, bounce higher against the backboard, on IN serves.
And that's with a 100 mph first flat serve.Who's got a live arm and who doesn't? In a previous post you said that I had a "nice live arm". But the thing is, I like Gking's serve much better than mine. Do you agree? And, if so, why?

Graphiteking
12-13-2012, 06:31 AM
Thanks for the encouraging words TomT. Over the past 6 months I have been tweaking my serve. My fav sport is BB but it hard to get 10 guys together so I have been playing tennis alot here lately. I played in high school from 91-94(tennis, basketball). Made it to state in both. So I'm a decent athlete. Now I have to work on my consistency and power on my 2hbh.

JackB1
12-13-2012, 06:37 AM
He's got a live arm, you don't.
You're both big, strong guys.
I"m almost 64, can still throw a football close to 50 yards first try, no warmup.
And using Wilson balls on a warm (65 degree) day, bounce my first serves chest high against the backboard, when it goes IN.
Lots of my normal second serves, if it get past the opponent, bounce higher against the backboard, on IN serves.
And that's with a 100 mph first flat serve.

you ever post any video of yourself playing Lee?

Graphiteking
12-13-2012, 07:55 AM
you ever post any video of yourself playing Lee?

It's been a lot of people on TTF asking the same ?. Is LeeD Keyser Soze??

TomT
12-13-2012, 11:23 AM
Thanks for the encouraging words TomT. Over the past 6 months I have been tweaking my serve. My fav sport is BB but it hard to get 10 guys together so I have been playing tennis alot here lately. I played in high school from 91-94(tennis, basketball). Made it to state in both. So I'm a decent athlete. Now I have to work on my consistency and power on my 2hbh.Watched your serving vids again. I think I like your step (semi-pinpoint) adjustment in the second vid as an improvement. You indicated that it has resulted in a more consistent serve. I've been experimenting with this with my serve. I think it will lead to better serves. You look strong enough to get a little more knee bend and explosion from that. I don't know if I'll ever be able to do that. What I've been trying to do up to now is emulate people like, say, Roscoe Tanner. Very low toss. Really fast arm action and wrist snap. One problem I have now is that the tendons in my wrist/hand have been sensitive since June. Not sure how I injured it. Just trying to do too much too soon I guess.

I love BB also. Grew up in Kentucky in the '60s. A good shooter on a team with lots of good shooters. Played against Dave Cowens (Big Red of Celtics fame) in high school.

From your vids, it looks to me like you're more than just a decent athlete. Hope you keep working on your serve, and improving, and posting more vids because I think it will help me to improve also.

It's been a lot of people on TTF asking the same ?. Is LeeD Keyser Soze??That's funny. :) I really like LeeD's posts. I hope he's around and prodigiously posting for as long as I'm visiting the TT forums. And yeah, vids from LeeD would be most appreciated. :)

LeeD
12-13-2012, 05:34 PM
Sorry TomT, if I remember correctly, your "live arm" is live for a 65 year old out of shape huffing and puffing 3.0 player.
GraphiteK's "live" arm is for a 4.0-4.5 strong athletic player.
His serve outpaces yours by easily 30 mph, if not closer to 40mph.

TomT
12-14-2012, 06:43 PM
Sorry TomT, if I remember correctly, your "live arm" is live for a 65 year old out of shape huffing and puffing 3.0 player.As I recall LeeD, your "nice live arm" comment re my latest serving vid didn't have those additional qualifiers. :)

GraphiteK's "live" arm is for a 4.0-4.5 strong athletic player.Ok, we agree on this.

His serve outpaces yours by easily 30 mph, if not closer to 40mph.Gotta disagree with this. Just comparing our hardest hit flat serves, it looks to me like Gking's point of racquet contact is a little higher than mine (which is one of the several reasons why I think his serving motion has better potential than mine), which means his ball has to travel a little farther to a the same court contact point than mine does. Many of his serves aren't hitting the back fence on one bounce, whereas most of mine do. Which I think means that the my ball is coming off my racquet at a slightly higher mph than his ball is coming off his racquet, and also that my ball is traveling slightly faster after it hits the court.

Having said that, I think that Gking's fastest flat serve has the potential to be 20 to 30 mph faster than my fastest flat serve. But in the vids so far posted it doesn't look to me like it is. Anyway, I'm going to be working on emulating Gking's semi-split step with a slightly higher (for me) toss, and as much of a knee bend and 'jump' into contact as I can do, and see what happens. If nothing else, it would give me more net clearance, and potentially better first serve percentage.

But as you've mentioned, we older players have lost explosiveness (among many other things). Heck, I can't even do a decent knee bend, much less explode out of it. :) Plus, I'm somewhat apprehensive about the stretching required for a better serving motion.

LeeD
12-14-2012, 07:17 PM
Yes, just watched vids of your serve again.
It's better than I first remembered, so I'll gladly give you 85 mph max on flat serves. You did hit some flats, and some slices.
I'd give GK an edge of at least 20 mph, his serves being top/sliced, no flats.
Remember those vids of my serves? They were with DunlopHDHardcourt balls, air temps at 9PM around 63, on slick cement courts. Twas March, in the SanFrancisco area, and 63 would be the hottest day from Jan thru June...at 9PM.
I'd think both you guys served in much warmer temps, and used Penns or Wilsons, which bounce much higher.

TomT
12-14-2012, 07:31 PM
Yes, just watched vids of your serve again.
It's better than I first remembered, so I'll gladly give you 85 mph max on flat serves. You did hit some flats, and some slices.
I'd give GK an edge of at least 20 mph, his serves being top/sliced, no flats.
Remember those vids of my serves? They were with DunlopHDHardcourt balls, air temps at 9PM around 63, on slick cement courts. Twas March, in the SanFrancisco area, and 63 would be the hottest day from Jan thru June...at 9PM.
I'd think both you guys served in much warmer temps, and used Penns or Wilsons, which bounce much higher.Yeah, I'll agree that a current GK flat serve would hit the back fence on one bounce pretty hard (and I don't remember seeing any completely flat serves in his vids). So that would put his flat serve at around 100mph with seemingly good potential for 10 to 15 mph faster.

Re mph of my hardest flat serves. In order to hit the back fence hard on one bounce, a completely flat serve from my point of racquet contact has to be traveling at an average speed (between point of racquet contact and point of court contact) of around 75 mph. This means that in the current way of talking about serve speeds (ie., instantaneous ball speed just after racquet contact), then my low trajectory flat serves that hit the back fence hard are around 90 mph. Or something like that. (Corrections are welcomed)

I remember watching your serving vid. It didn't look like you were trying to hit hard at all. Just coming over the ball, and imparting good spin. Nice motion.

San Fran. Was out there in '67 and '68. Liked it a lot, but south Florida is much nicer. :)

Graphiteking
12-15-2012, 11:25 AM
Hey guys. I've been with the kids all week with basketball and haven't had time to practices serve. Plus yesterday was a tragic day in America. The shooting in Connecticut has put REAL things in perspective. That video was my first time changing to platform. I haven't practice on any flat serves yet. I'm a slice serve guy but I'm gonna try flats. Don't know about my mph but I'm working on placement.

TomT
12-15-2012, 06:31 PM
Hi Graphiteking. For some reason I was thinking you were going from platform to a sort of semi-pinpoint. I was thinking that the second vid was the change. Ok, now I have it straight. You're experimenting with platform, not pinpoint. Duh.

So, how does it feel? Apparently you like it better.

What I've been experimenting with is going from platform to some sort of pinpoint. As in this vid from today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RIhNeSM8eE

Not much of a pinpoint, eh? Oh well, maybe I'll just stick with the platform, and try to learn from this and other threads and from you as you progress. The hesitation in the trophy position is, among other things, hard for me. It just doesn't feel right. But you seem to get a lot of power from the potential energy that that produces.

Oh, and yeah, that's another pair of board, not tennis, shorts. :)

One other thing while I'm here. If your slice serve is effective, then why bother with a flat serve? Developing an effective slice with about the same mph as my hardest flat serve (as your slice seems to have) is one of my future goals. Then again, if you could add another 10 to 15 mph to your serve by hitting flat, and place it consistently, it does add a dimension to your game.

Graphiteking
12-16-2012, 12:01 PM
Nice vid TomT!! I pray that I can still go out and play at your age. Yes I like the change. I'm more consistent with the platform. I'm just gonna experiment with the flat serve, nothing set in stone. As far as the shorts, looks like they work for you, plus your opponent will be throwed off by them!!

TomT
12-16-2012, 12:39 PM
Nice vid TomT!! I pray that I can still go out and play at your age. Yes I like the change. I'm more consistent with the platform.I think I might as well stick with platform also. (Not least of which because one poster pointed out that it's easier on his back.) While trying to get a bit more power and better net clearance via higher toss, knee bend, rotation, and jumping into the ball (assuming that's even possible for me to ever be able to do).

Your serve looks good now, and it looks like you have lots of potential to improve it further.

I'm just gonna experiment with the flat serve, nothing set in stone.Ok. I'll be looking for future vids on that. As well as any developments in your slice as that's what I need to develop.

As far as the shorts, looks like they work for you, plus your opponent will be throwed off by them!!Haha. :) Whatever works, eh? (Within the bounds of good taste and fair competition of course. :)) Although so far they don't seem to be throwing most of my opponents off enough to actually enable me to win matches . :) Maybe something more gaudy ... like bright polka dot shorts with one of those t-shirts with flickering led lights. Ok, I'm getting a bit off topic. Just that I never really thought of the boardshorts as being a distraction, but only as a fashion statement. :)