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CCH4TENNIS
12-12-2012, 06:08 PM
Hi All

Do you guys pronate on your overheads ? We have gurus like Oscar Wegner advocating hitting down on overheads and online teachers like Ian from http://www.essentialtennis.com/ emphasizing on pronation.

As for me, hitting down produces a powerful smash but I can;t seem to be able to smah to the Ad Court. Tried pronating on a smash and yeah, iwas able to smash to the Ad court quite easily.

Thank you

LeeD
12-12-2012, 06:14 PM
Pronation has nothing to do with hitting up or hitting down.
Pronation is the flattenning of the racketface to hit a flat ball, instead of a slice, on overheads.
Hitting down is done with a high rackethand at trophy.
Hitting up is done with a low hitting hand at trophy position.
And yes, to present the biggest racketface for the safest overhead, pronate.
As for up or down, depends on your court position when you hit the ball.

boramiNYC
12-13-2012, 04:59 AM
pronation is the result of full swing. if you hit overhead in full swing pronation will happen. if you hit it compact like high volley you won't pronate. practice early and precise prep for ample time to do full swing and pronate. but some high balls you don't have enough time and cannot pronate and that's fine as well but don't make it into habit.

86golf
12-13-2012, 05:43 AM
It's both. Pronate on the out wide Ad court overheads. Not so much on the Deuce side sliced overheads. Unless you are in an awkward position that would force you to do otherwise.

toly
12-13-2012, 02:58 PM
Hi All

Do you guys pronate on your overheads ? We have gurus like Oscar Wegner advocating hitting down on overheads and online teachers like Ian from http://www.essentialtennis.com/ emphasizing on pronation.

As for me, hitting down produces a powerful smash but I can;t seem to be able to smah to the Ad Court. Tried pronating on a smash and yeah, iwas able to smash to the Ad court quite easily.

Thank you

You shouldn’t use forearm pronation at all, instead you have to use forearm supination. The amount of supination defines direction of the overhead and serve.

In picture below Henin is going to hit ball in deuce court, that’s why string bed plane is directed to the deuce court. Then she applies internal shoulder rotation (the major motion for ball’s speed), wrist deviation and flexion.

http://i46.tinypic.com/148n30k.jpg

Cheetah
12-13-2012, 03:45 PM
You shouldn’t use forearm pronation at all, instead you have to use forearm supination.


Roger Federer says don't listen to Toly.

Pronation on overhead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV9Yp4fpWa8&t=42s

TheCheese
12-13-2012, 03:59 PM
I'd imagine pronation is the best bet. Not only do you get a bigger surface area to hit the ball with, it also allows you to get some spin on the ball for control, like you do with the serve.

dominikk1985
12-13-2012, 04:06 PM
Of course. In badminton pronation is taught too. you cannot have a good overhead or serve without pronation because unlike a FH topspin the pronation will also add horizontal racket velocity.

as LeeD said pronation has nothing to do with hitting down.
the degree of hitting down depends on the location you hit the ball. if you stand in front of the service line the safest option to score is probably a "home run" (bounce it over the fence).

but if you are farther back hitting one deep might be the safer option since you cannot hit down as much without hitting the net.

CCH4TENNIS
12-13-2012, 06:12 PM
Roger Federer says don't listen to Toly.

Pronation on overhead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV9Yp4fpWa8&t=42s

Hi Cheetah

TQVM for the excellent video !

Cheers !

toly
12-13-2012, 09:27 PM
Roger Federer says don't listen to Toly.

Pronation on overhead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV9Yp4fpWa8&t=42s

According to B. Elliot article: “Biomechanics and Tennis”, pronation contributes just miserable 5% to the powerful serve, see please the data below.

Shoulder - 10%
Upper arm horizontal flexion - 15%
Internal shoulder rotation - 40%
Forearm pronation - 5%
Hand flexion 30%

The same can be said about overhead.

You really must learn medical terminology. :twisted:

Cheetah
12-13-2012, 09:41 PM
According to B. Elliot article: “Biomechanics and Tennis”, pronation contributes just miserable 5% to the powerful serve, see please the data below.

Shoulder - 10%
Upper arm horizontal flexion - 15%
Internal shoulder rotation - 40%
Forearm pronation - 5%
Hand flexion 30%

The same can be said about overhead.

You really must learn medical terminology. :twisted:

I know it well enough to be able to identify the pronation used in every overhead in the fed vid i posted. Seems everyone else can see it also.
Maybe you need stronger eyeglasses.

Are you now also saying pronation shouldn't be used in serves either?

toly
12-13-2012, 09:52 PM
I know it well enough to be able to identify the pronation used in every overhead in the fed vid i posted. Seems everyone else can see it also.
Maybe you need stronger eyeglasses.

Are you now also saying pronation shouldn't be used in serves either?

Did you read Elliot data that I posted above? He stated that pronation contributes practically nothing (5%) to the serve. This is very well known fact.
Forearm supination before the start of internal shoulder rotation is much more important than forearm pronation.

You really should learn something about scientific tennis information!!! :twisted:

Cheetah
12-13-2012, 10:00 PM
How about you make one of your sequence diagrams of an overhead smash and we'll let everyone decide if there is pronation or not.

Or one for a serve?.. which apparently doesn't use pronation either now.

Netspirit
12-13-2012, 11:38 PM
Players pronate during the serve and use the same upper-body mechanics for the overhead.

...What are you arguing about, again?

TheCheese
12-13-2012, 11:58 PM
I don't know what Toly's getting at. Even if it doesn't contribute to racket head speed, it's still important because it opens up the stringbed.

Kalin
12-14-2012, 12:07 AM
Toly, even if pronation contributes very little to the power it is still very useful for the placement of the overhead which, as we all know, is much more important in an overhead than pure power.

Also, if a ball is lobbed over a righty's left shoulder the player generally has two options- hit a backhanded overhead (difficult) or lean sideways to the left and hit the overhead pretty much entirely with pronation. I have played volleyball for years and this comes very naturally to me unlike the backhanded overhead.

Dimcorner
12-14-2012, 06:56 AM
I play my overheads like I play my badminton smash. Lots of pronation. I know research says pronation is 5% but I find it very hard to believe. I'm not says it's a majority, but 5% is next to nothing. It's practically saying that if you lock your wrist rotation you should be able to hit with 95% of the original power or so right? You can also say then that if you hit an overhead with wrist pronation only then you can pretty much call it a block or a drop shot?

Dimcorner
12-14-2012, 07:07 AM
One other note.

This is from badminton, but I'm sure it probably applies here a bit more. I think the old way of smashing was (at least that's how they taught me) was using hand flexion. This was fine for medium power, but if you start increasing racquet head speed this would lead to injury so you reach a sort of terminal velocity before your body breaks something. The new method they are teaching now is using pronation more (maybe now they figured out is pronation that gives you the power) and at least for me I noticed a very big difference in speed. In badminton you can do smashes just with wrist movement and the pronation method gives you the most power by a large margin.

Maybe the Elliot article was studying players at that time and how they swung the racquet? I know if you studied badminton players 15 years ago they might be more people doing flexion but if you look now they are all doing mostly pronation.

krz
12-14-2012, 07:34 AM
If you're hitting overheads with a continental grip, I'm not sure how it's possible to not pronate.

toly
12-14-2012, 10:33 AM
http://i47.tinypic.com/2iln4ft.jpg

LeeD
12-14-2012, 10:42 AM
C'mon guys.
Everyone hits overheads with a conti grip.
As such, you have to pronate to flatten the ball, and you want to present the biggest racketface you can.

Cheetah
12-14-2012, 10:53 AM
Ohh.. so that's pronation? Got it.
Thanks Toly. Awesome post. I'm going to call Fed now and let him know he's doing it wrong.

arche3
12-14-2012, 11:36 AM
C'mon guys.
Everyone hits overheads with a conti grip.
As such, you have to pronate to flatten the ball, and you want to present the biggest racketface you can.

If no pronate the arm gets in the way of the racket. Lee d is right you have to pronate or else you cant swing any faster. Using conti grip.

LeeD
12-14-2012, 11:44 AM
Sometimes, we choose to hit a more conservative overhead, a slice for a bigger safety margin.
On those, we still pronate, but do so less, so the result is similar to a slice serve, hit slower and higher over the net.
If we did not pronate whatsoever with a conti grip, we'd be trying to hit the ball with the leading EDGE of the racket, wouldn't we?
That is a trick serve worth doing! :)

toly
12-14-2012, 11:46 AM
Toly, even if pronation contributes very little to the power it is still very useful for the placement of the overhead which, as we all know, is much more important in an overhead than pure power.

Also, if a ball is lobbed over a righty's left shoulder the player generally has two options- hit a backhanded overhead (difficult) or lean sideways to the left and hit the overhead pretty much entirely with pronation. I have played volleyball for years and this comes very naturally to me unlike the backhanded overhead.

Let’s compare two different overheads.

http://i49.tinypic.com/29y4e8y.jpg

Federer is in very comfortable position and he hits to the ad court. Longitude axis of the racquet is perpendicular to the back fence. Thus, he practically doesn’t employ forearm supination.

Henin is in inconvenient position and she wants to the hit ball to the deuce court. Longitude axis of the racquet is almost parallel to the back fence. She applies unbelievable magnitude of the forearm supination, around 90°.

IMO, forearm supination is the best way to control azimuth direction of the outgoing ball.

We always should use the same amount of the angular path of ISR and forearm pronation - about 90° because these motions are very fast and controlling their angular path is practically impossible task.

How to control angle of elevation I have no idea. :confused::(

LeeD
12-14-2012, 11:52 AM
Pronation in the overhead is not to add speed.
Pronation is needed to present the full face of the racket so you don't mishit.
And covering what should be backhand overheads with a leaping backwards normal overhead puts you out of position, pinned to the alleys, leaving your court wide open to any shot. If you put it away, fine.

rkelley
12-14-2012, 12:00 PM
Toly, just go hit some overheads and serves - on a tennis court - with a real racquet and balls. I don't see how one can do it, using a continental grip, without pronating. If you can then more power to you.

This isn't rocket surgery :)

Chas Tennis
12-14-2012, 12:59 PM
Pronation and internal shoulder rotation produce the same rotation of the wrist when the arm is straight as in the serve.

In videos you can distinguish pronation from internal shoulder rotation by observing how the elbow rotates. If the elbow rotates around its axis that component is entirely internal shoulder rotation.

Interpreting the Federer Overhead Video. In the Federer over head video you can see the axial rotation of the elbow by looking at the shadows of the elbow bones. The elbow rotates axially rapidly just before and continues after impact at sec 49. To do single-frame stop-action on Youtube push the play-pause button as fast as possible.

The rapid ISR rotation is clearer on this serve video at sec 5.
http://vimeo.com/27528701

I think internal shoulder rotation is done for all pro serves and, in my opinion, on most strong pro overheads.

In this 2006 abstract, Brian Gordon does not seem to have yet agreed with Elliott's serve research. Are there more recent Brian Gordon publications with other conclusions about internal shoulder rotation?
http://www.keepthefaith1296.com/parkinsons/contributions-of-joint-rotations-to-racquet-speed-in-the-tennis-serve-MTYzNjg2MTI=.htm

Early Elliott, Marshall and Noffal publication
http://www.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/internationalexeter/documents/iss/Elliot_et_al__1995.pdf
Does anyone have a link to a later Elliott publication on the tennis serve published about 2003?

toly
12-14-2012, 01:02 PM
Toly, just go hit some overheads and serves - on a tennis court - with a real racquet and balls. I don't see how one can do it, using a continental grip, without pronating. If you can then more power to you.

This isn't rocket surgery :)
I’m very big advocate of the arm pronation, see please my article http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=361610&highlight=toly.

You should learn proper medical terms, because you use them incorrectly.

There are my very simple definitions:

1. Arm pronation is forearm pronation plus internal shoulder rotation.

2. Forearm pronation is counterclockwise rotation of the forearm about elbow joint.

3. Internal shoulder rotation is counterclockwise rotation of the upper arm about shoulder joint.

See also post #20. I just cannot believe we argue about this so simple stuff.

You better tell me something about ball’s direction control.:(

toly
12-14-2012, 01:14 PM
Pronation and internal shoulder rotation produce the same rotation of the wrist when the arm is straight as in the serve.

In videos you can distinguish pronation from internal shoulder rotation by observing how the elbow rotates. If the elbow rotates around its axis that component is entirely internal shoulder rotation.

Interpreting the Federer Overhead Video. In the Federer over head video you can see the axial rotation of the elbow by looking at the shadows of the elbow bones in the video. The elbow rotates axially rapidly just before and continue after impact. To do single frame stop action on Youtube push the play-pause button as fast as possible.

The rapid rotation is clearer on this serve video
http://vimeo.com/27528701


I think internal shoulder rotation is the done of all pro serves and, in my opinion, on most strong pro overheads.

In this 2006 abstract Brian Gordon does not seem to have yet agreed with Elliott's research. Are there more recent Brian Gordon publications with other conclusions about internal shoulder rotation?
http://www.keepthefaith1296.com/parkinsons/contributions-of-joint-rotations-to-racquet-speed-in-the-tennis-serve-MTYzNjg2MTI=.htm

Chas Tennis, thank you very much for participation in this discussion. I absolutely cannot comprehend why so many tt members cannot understand so simple stuff and argue about nothing. This is unbelievable.

rkelley
12-14-2012, 02:17 PM
Chas Tennis, thank you very much for participation in this discussion. I absolutely cannot comprehend why so many tt members cannot understand so simple stuff and argue about nothing. This is unbelievable.

Have you ever considered the possibility, as remote as it likely is, that you might be one who is confused?

Just sayin'.

TheCheese
12-14-2012, 02:59 PM
The debates over what is and isn't pronation, supination, or ISR have gotten out of hand lately.

You know, when you start getting really deep into the terminology what we're talking about becomes essentially useless to anyone trying to learn how to hit an overhead.

I think it'd be great if people started adding some videos to their comments to show visually what exactly they're talking about so we don't end up endlessly debating about medical definitions.

LeeD
12-14-2012, 03:06 PM
Overheads are hit with the same pronation as a flat first serve.
Some players choose to hit their overhead like a fast second serve, with SOME amount of pronation.

julian
12-15-2012, 07:27 AM
Overheads are hit with the same pronation as a flat first serve.
Some players choose to hit their overhead like a fast second serve, with SOME amount of pronation.
The point made in post #25 is that Henin hits an overhead with SUPINATION.
There is NO PRONATION for this particular case at LEAST from this ONE STILL picture.
There is NO RULE that one cannot supinate overheads.
To be more revolutionary-there is NO rule that one CANNOT supinate serves
To be even more aggressive one can have a serve at which supination FOLLOWS PRONATION.

julian
12-15-2012, 07:38 AM
The debates over what is and isn't pronation, supination, or ISR have gotten out of hand lately.

You know, when you start getting really deep into the terminology what we're talking about becomes essentially useless to anyone trying to learn how to hit an overhead.

I think it'd be great if people started adding some videos to their comments to show visually what exactly they're talking about so we don't end up endlessly debating about medical definitions.
Post #25 the right picture demonstrates supination.
You have a STILL PICTURE (not video available)

boramiNYC
12-15-2012, 07:47 AM
stop the silliness. the most controlled and powerful (no stretched situation) contact happens in any swing in between the forearm rotation. no other way for the racquet to go around the hand in a full arc. except volleys any swing will involve combination of both pronation and supination. other wrist motions are available for fine control of racquet in the midst of the swing but swing with forearm rotation is the basis of any kind of swing.

minus slice also.

julian
12-15-2012, 08:09 AM
stop the silliness. the most controlled and powerful (no stretched situation) contact happens in any swing in between the forearm rotation. no other way for the racquet to go around the hand in a full arc. except volleys any swing will involve combination of both pronation and supination. other wrist motions are available for fine control of racquet in the midst of the swing but swing with forearm rotation is the basis of any kind of swing.

Please see some volleyball coaching materials how to hit a middle ball.
See some analysis of serve's by Sampras etc on add side of a court
Please be specific to which post you are responding
Saying "stop the silliness" is NOT cool.

julian
12-15-2012, 08:15 AM
stop the silliness. the most controlled and powerful (no stretched situation) contact happens in any swing in between the forearm rotation. no other way for the racquet to go around the hand in a full arc. except volleys any swing will involve combination of both pronation and supination. other wrist motions are available for fine control of racquet in the midst of the swing but swing with forearm rotation is the basis of any kind of swing.

If you have an access to www.tennisplayer.net please read the recent article about pronation-quite interesting and to SOME EXTENT related

boramiNYC
12-15-2012, 08:35 AM
can you ever elaborate on your posts if you wanna make any point? I'm not gonna run around wherever you point just to understand what you are trying to say.

please quote, explain, paraphrase, or summarize, just help your audience out.

arche3
12-15-2012, 08:45 AM
In the picture toly posted of henin. She still has to actually swing the racket right? Then she will from that pose pronate to hit the ball right? I'm confused

boramiNYC
12-15-2012, 10:10 AM
toly do you mean the contact occurs while the forearm is supinated? because I believe Henin will eventually pronate in her finish. one can place the contact point anywhere between supination and pronation to control direction and spin. sometimes situation limits options as in henin s case.

julian
12-15-2012, 12:21 PM
Pronation and internal shoulder rotation produce the same rotation of the wrist when the arm is straight as in the serve.

In videos you can distinguish pronation from internal shoulder rotation by observing how the elbow rotates. If the elbow rotates around its axis that component is entirely internal shoulder rotation.

Interpreting the Federer Overhead Video. In the Federer over head video you can see the axial rotation of the elbow by looking at the shadows of the elbow bones. The elbow rotates axially rapidly just before and continues after impact at sec 49. To do single-frame stop-action on Youtube push the play-pause button as fast as possible.

The rapid ISR rotation is clearer on this serve video at sec 5.
http://vimeo.com/27528701

I think internal shoulder rotation is done for all pro serves and, in my opinion, on most strong pro overheads.

In this 2006 abstract, Brian Gordon does not seem to have yet agreed with Elliott's serve research. Are there more recent Brian Gordon publications with other conclusions about internal shoulder rotation?
http://www.keepthefaith1296.com/parkinsons/contributions-of-joint-rotations-to-racquet-speed-in-the-tennis-serve-MTYzNjg2MTI=.htm

Early Elliott, Marshall and Noffal publication
http://www.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/internationalexeter/documents/iss/Elliot_et_al__1995.pdf
Does anyone have a link to a later Elliott publication on the tennis serve published about 2003?
Chas Tennis,
which part in different by Gordon comparing to Elliot?
Thank you,
Julian

Chas Tennis
12-15-2012, 12:41 PM
Chas Tennis,
which part in different by Gordon comparing to Elliot?
Thank you,
Julian

I only have the 2006 abstract.

".................................................. ...............................................
Computed contributions of shoulder internal rotation, elbow extension and forearm pronation within the final 0.03 s before impact were questionable due to the large degree of elbow extension."

Internal Shoulder Rotation is mentioned but not clearly described or emphasized in this 2011 NYT article
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/08/28/sports/tennis/the-serve-creating-racket-speed.html

Fugazi
12-15-2012, 01:18 PM
You shouldn’t use forearm pronation at all, instead you have to use forearm supination. The amount of supination defines direction of the overhead and serve.

In picture below Henin is going to hit ball in deuce court, that’s why string bed plane is directed to the deuce court. Then she applies internal shoulder rotation (the major motion for ball’s speed), wrist deviation and flexion.

http://i46.tinypic.com/148n30k.jpg
Next time maybe you should specify that the supination you're talking about is in the shot preparation, not the actual stroke.

toly
12-15-2012, 01:45 PM
In the picture toly posted of henin. She still has to actually swing the racket right? Then she will from that pose pronate to hit the ball right? I'm confused
You are absolutely correct. Her forearm is in maximum supination state. So when she continues her serve motions she has no chance to supinate anymore. :)

toly
12-15-2012, 01:47 PM
Next time maybe you should specify that the supination you're talking about is in the shot preparation, not the actual stroke.
Thank you so much for very good advice.:):):)

arche3
12-15-2012, 01:56 PM
Next time maybe you should specify that the supination you're talking about is in the shot preparation, not the actual stroke.

I agree. We have this whole thread and we find out toly is not even talking about swinging the racket. Its like if I claimed tennis players will play better barefoot. And I show a picture of henin barefoot. And then I show a bunch of medical and scientific studies about barefoot running. and then I finally after all the posts say I meant before she gets on the tennis court to play tennis she doesnt need shoes. After she puts on her shoes and is ready to actually hit some balls she wears her shoes. Thats what I meant all along.

toly
12-15-2012, 02:36 PM
toly do you mean the contact occurs while the forearm is supinated? because I believe Henin will eventually pronate in her finish. one can place the contact point anywhere between supination and pronation to control direction and spin. sometimes situation limits options as in henin s case.
According to scientific data, the major contributor to the racquet speed is Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR). If we want also use SSC, in preparation phase we should use External Shoulder Rotation (ESR) as much as possible then ISR can provide the fastest racquet speed.

The forearm pronation contributes practically nothing, thus in case of serve, when we are in the most comfortable stance, we probably can forget about forearm pronation/supination.

In case of overhead smash we are very often in very awkward position. In order to control azimuth ball direction we have to use forearm pronation/supination. For example, if we want to hit to the left and our body is in wrong position, we should apply a lot of forearm supination. This is exactly what Henin is doing before pronation phase of the overhead. :confused:

Cheetah
12-15-2012, 03:12 PM
Toly was not talking about 'preparation' originally. He was talking about the actual stroke into the ball. He's only using that now to backtrack from his original position.

Toly,

You originally stated 'we should not use pronation'. - False.
And you also stated that Fed doesn't use pronation on his overhead. - False
And you also said 'forearm supination is the best way to control azimuth direction of the outgoing ball.' - This is False; and Toly wasn't referring to the prep phase here.

Plus you said 'We always should use the same amount of the angular path of ISR and forearm pronation'. - False and can be proven by looking at any overhead or serve

You stated 'The forearm pronation contributes practically nothing'. - Again false.

Your 5% claim on pronation is not a verifiable claim. I saw another study posted on this board yesterday that said it was 10%. I'm sure with a little effort I can find studies that say 7% or maybe even 12%.
You don't think a 5 or 10% increase in serve speed is significant? Let's say it's 7%. That's the difference between a 115mph serve and 123mph. That's a big difference. Or if applied to spin a 5 to 10% increase is also significant.

The OP was asking whether or not to pronate, and not 'how to get the most power'.

The henin picture you posted also appears to be an exception case and not the norm. Maybe she was trying to rush the net and someone lobbed her and caught her by surprise. It certainly doesn't look like a routine overhead smash. Even so you said in this picture's post 'we should not use pronation' but it's certainly clear she is going to pronate before contact here.

julian
12-15-2012, 05:25 PM
Next time maybe you should specify that the supination you're talking about is in the shot preparation, not the actual stroke.

Could you define A BEGINNING of THE ACTUAL STROKE for the overhead shot?

WildVolley
12-15-2012, 05:31 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that internal shoulder rotation usually also goes along with forearm pronation? For this reason, I don't think that calling the motion pronation is too misleading.

julian
12-15-2012, 05:38 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that internal shoulder rotation usually also goes along with forearm pronation? For this reason, I don't think that calling the motion pronation is too misleading.
So why the title of thread IS NOT
Use internal shoulder rotation or NOT?

WildVolley
12-15-2012, 06:05 PM
So why the title of thread IS NOT
Use internal shoulder rotation or NOT?

I think it is because fewer people understand the concept of internal shoulder rotation, or confuse it with just forearm pronation. For instance, if I take my hand in a thumbs up gesture and then rapidly turn it to thumbs down, I probably use internal shoulder rotation as much as forearm pronation, but I guess I was made aware of forearm rotation first.

So the answer is to use internal shoulder rotation thru the contact zone. You'll probably have a little pronation mixed in there too. That's the best way to hit an overhead if you have the time. Sometimes, you just have to get the racket up there and block the ball back down. In that case the Jimmy Connor style straight arm windmill will probably work fine.

arche3
12-15-2012, 07:20 PM
Toly was not talking about 'preparation' originally. He was talking about the actual stroke into the ball. He's only using that now to backtrack from his original position.

Toly,

You originally stated 'we should not use pronation'. - False.
And you also stated that Fed doesn't use pronation on his overhead. - False
And you also said 'forearm supination is the best way to control azimuth direction of the outgoing ball.' - This is False; and Toly wasn't referring to the prep phase here.

Plus you said 'We always should use the same amount of the angular path of ISR and forearm pronation'. - False and can be proven by looking at any overhead or serve

You stated 'The forearm pronation contributes practically nothing'. - Again false.

Your 5% claim on pronation is not a verifiable claim. I saw another study posted on this board yesterday that said it was 10%. I'm sure with a little effort I can find studies that say 7% or maybe even 12%.
You don't think a 5 or 10% increase in serve speed is significant? Let's say it's 7%. That's the difference between a 115mph serve and 123mph. That's a big difference. Or if applied to spin a 5 to 10% increase is also significant.

The OP was asking whether or not to pronate, and not 'how to get the most power'.

The henin picture you posted also appears to be an exception case and not the norm. Maybe she was trying to rush the net and someone lobbed her and caught her by surprise. It certainly doesn't look like a routine overhead smash. Even so you said in this picture's post 'we should not use pronation' but it's certainly clear she is going to pronate before contact here.

I have to agree. Toly knows nothing about tennis.... :eek:

Fugazi
12-16-2012, 09:42 AM
Could you define A BEGINNING of THE ACTUAL STROKE for the overhead shot?
The supination is the preparation of the last component of an overhead... The forward motion has already started at that point (shoulder/hip rotation, etc.), but the final stage, i.e. pronation, is in "preparation". In other words, supination = "preparation" for pronation.