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View Full Version : Another push/pull fh question.


isilra
12-16-2012, 05:39 AM
I have read almost all the topics about pull and push thing and i have something that i couldn't find an explanation. I know most of you don't like push/pull thing but i should say i'm asking because the answer will really help me to improve my game.

In a push stroke, you set your wrist at the beginning of the takeback and your arm/wrist position never changes till the moment of impact. That means you can transfer all the momentum of a loopy takeback to your stroke and that gives you extra power. So a continuous, loopy and optionally huge takeback is a must as we can all see at wta matches.

I wonder what is the effect of a loopy and continuous takeback with a pull forehand besides timing and feel. I mean when you take the racquet back, you turn your hips and with the rotation of the hip and shoulders, it creates a lag and the racquet goes back. To me the racquet goes back means a pause, even a stepback with your swing and that means all the momentum that created with your loopy and huge takeback is lost at the moment of whipping. If you watch Nadal slow motion, it seems like he stops his takeback 3 times before he makes the shot and it's clearly not an "alphabet c". Also Federer has the same pause but not that extreme;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soADAL_uGs8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc

And this is Ana Ivanovic with her push forehand, you can clearly see the continuous loop without any stop and feel the power it gives to her. Also Sharapova forehand has the same effect;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXgJCN6KWT0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHSHnshZRss

So basically can we say a loopy and continuous backswing adds power to your strokes if you have a push stroke style, and adds nothing besides timing and better feel if you have a pull stroke style ? Also is a straight arm technique necessary to hit a pull stroke ?

5263
12-16-2012, 09:05 AM
You are mistaken on the pause and those Men's hands never pause.
Racket may appear to pause from certain perspectives.

dominikk1985
12-16-2012, 10:20 AM
why are you guys so caught in push vs pull?

the FH is neither, it is a centrifugal swing around the body. you can only push or pull in a straight line but the FH swing is an arc. of course it appears like a pull since the hand leads the racket but it is really not. you are not pulling your racket but swinging it around the body. and you are certainly not pushing in a high level FH.

this video explains the centrifugal swing quite well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBu30VbvBRY

WildVolley
12-16-2012, 11:15 AM
I too am not a fan of the push-pull taxonomy. It never really made sense to me and is confusing.

Calling forehands either WTA or ATP makes more sense to me, though there are big exceptions to each. The men tend to keep the racket on the front side of the body and pat-the-dog aggressively. Women players tend to let the racket lag way behind the body and not pat the dog much.

As 5263 says, I think that you are confusing the transition from a downward movement of the racket hand to a forward movement as a pause. It isn't a pause, it is just, as you noted, less loopy because both Federer and Nadal fairly sharply change from pressing down into a pat-the-dog to a powerful forward swing, rather than a gentle looping motion.

5263
12-16-2012, 12:18 PM
why are you guys so caught in push vs pull?

the FH is neither, it is a centrifugal swing around the body. you can only push or pull in a straight line but the FH swing is an arc. of course it appears like a pull since the hand leads the racket but it is really not. you are not pulling your racket but swinging it around the body. and you are certainly not pushing in a high level FH.

this video explains the centrifugal swing quite well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBu30VbvBRY

Not crazy about push/pull terms either, but I'm pretty sure I can pull and push
on an arc as well. :)

WildVolley
12-16-2012, 12:31 PM
Not crazy about push/pull terms either, but I'm pretty sure I can pull and push on an arc as well. :)

Yeah, the problem with the push/pull terms is that both of the strokes roughly described by these terms use both push and pull motions to hit the ball. So you end up having people think, well, I pull the racket into the shot so I use a "pull" stroke. However, what is called the "push" stroke used by WTA players also involves pulling the racket into the ball. That's what makes it confusing.

dominikk1985
12-16-2012, 12:52 PM
Not crazy about push/pull terms either, but I'm pretty sure I can pull and push
on an arc as well. :)

of course but then you have to change the direction of push every inch:D.

if you want to talk push vs pull a pull is closer to it but still not really accurate.

to really feel a centrifugal swing grab a bucket of water with both hands and then spin around your axis:). the water will stay in the bucket because the centrifugal force wants to drive away from the center of rotation. that is also the reason why the racket whips nearly automatical when you swing with a loose wrist- it tries to move as far from your center of rotation as possible.

I'm not trying to argue with you about terms here but I think it is very important that you learn that sensation as a player. this is the difference between swinging and muscling the racket.

this applies to tennis as well as to golf or baseball.

the most spectacular example of centrifugal swing is certainly the hammer throw. here you cannot really push or pull because the hammer is on a line. the tennis racket or baseball bat still can be turned with muscle strength but the hammer can neither lag nor lead rotation:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmVANv9sHnw

the tennis swing is not as pure of a centrifugal swing as the hammer and does include some elements of pulling and even handle torque but still the centrifugal force is a vital element that has to be mastered to reach high racket speeds.

Ash_Smith
12-16-2012, 11:52 PM
Yep, I'm with the others on here - I've been coaching at a high level and have worked with some world class coaches over the years and had never heard the distinction of "push or pull forehands" except on here!

I think it's one of those random message board inventions that you get when somebody wants to appear radical or unique in their analysis! :o)