PDA

View Full Version : Forgive me you Sissies


Mick3391
12-21-2012, 10:23 PM
Grow up! Quit whining, asking for advice, you going to be a star listening to our tips?

Go out there and be a man! I started playing at like 12 with my brother who was 21, I lost, lost, lost, but had desire, so got better and wipped him. Just go do your own thing or stop whining. Can't serve? Then PRACTICE! Poor forehand? PRACTICE!

There is no magical formula we can give you to lean, do what we did, that is work our tails off to get good, lose, win, win, lose, just fight through it. Run up to 5 miles, but also do sprints. Practice against a wall, just STOP with the "If I only hold my hand ......." nonsense.

I'm sorry, I just see so many wooses on this forum, can't play there is no suggestion for you except for you to play and learn yourself, how do you think we learned?

Even those who go to Tennis Academies only learn what they are taught, Tennis is much more than what you are taught, it's like boxing, unique to you.

TomT
12-21-2012, 10:43 PM
Grow up! Quit whining, asking for advice, you going to be a star listening to our tips?

Go out there and be a man! I started playing at like 12 with my brother who was 21, I lost, lost, lost, but had desire, so got better and wipped him. Just go do your own thing or stop whining. Can't serve? Then PRACTICE! Poor forehand? PRACTICE!

There is no magical formula we can give you to lean, do what we did, that is work our tails off to get good, lose, win, win, lose, just fight through it. Run up to 5 miles, but also do sprints. Practice against a wall, just STOP with the "If I only hold my hand ......." nonsense.

I'm sorry, I just see so many wooses on this forum, can't play there is no suggestion for you except for you to play and learn yourself, how do you think we learned?

Even those who go to Tennis Academies only learn what they are taught, Tennis is much more than what you are taught, it's like boxing, unique to you.:) Good points, imo, Mick. After all, how did instructors learn what they preach? I think most people are smart enough to have a pretty good idea what they have to do to improve, but are just not willing to do the necessary work. I could be wrong about that. (And, yes, I'm certainly guilty of being lazy and a wuss at times.) Maybe some people really don't have a clue. But I find that hard to believe. I think it's mostly what you're talking about. Lack of willingness to do the necessary work to improve.

Supposing that someone is genuinely intellectually, analytically, and maybe even physically, challenged regarding tennis (and I might be one such person), then it follows that the only way for such a person to be competitive at ever higher levels is to actually do more experimentation, more work, more quality repetition, than more gifted competitors.

Anyway, bottom line, yeah, don't whine ... work. Or find another, maybe easier, hobby.

Mick3391
12-21-2012, 11:27 PM
:) Good points, imo, Mick. After all, how did instructors learn what they preach? I think most people are smart enough to have a pretty good idea what they have to do to improve, but are just not willing to do the necessary work. I could be wrong about that. (And, yes, I'm certainly guilty of being lazy and a wuss at times.) Maybe some people really don't have a clue. But I find that hard to believe. I think it's mostly what you're talking about. Lack of willingness to do the necessary work to improve.

Supposing that someone is genuinely intellectually, analytically, and maybe even physically, challenged regarding tennis (and I might be one such person), then it follows that the only way for such a person to be competitive at ever higher levels is to actually do more experimentation, more work, more quality repetition, than more gifted competitors.

Anyway, bottom line, yeah, don't whine ... work. Or find another, maybe easier, hobby.

I really appreciate that Tom, I felt bad once I hit "Submit Reply", maybe just in a bad mood, but yea it seems like everyone wants some magical ride or formula, my "Magical Formula" was YEARS of playing, learning what works and what doesn't, and not even being aware of it enough to teach my son, I just "Do", so to teach takes much thought as to how I have my feet, my grip, everything.

It just seems in modern society that you can learn to play a certain way. Again I stand by, and I can be corrected, but I'm convinced no one taught Fed to be Fed, yea he saw Sampras, yea he had teachers, but who could teach that Rythmn?

Anyways, thanks, I try not to create any ripples on this forum, everyone's a tough guy behind a computer, but really it's a matter of getting a SMALL WOOD RACQUET, PLAYING ALL THE TIME, then get a bigger racquet, and just do it. I use a 95 K-Factor, I love my 90, but can't believe anyone can't hit anything they want with the GIANT head of the 95.

God bless and merry Christmass Tom T!

J011yroger
12-22-2012, 01:45 AM
http://i.qkme.me/3r2c7j.jpg

J

Hi I'm Ray
12-22-2012, 01:59 AM
I don't agree with some stuff here like the wooden rackets part, 95's being gigantic, or asking for advice is somehow wrong.

Once past the combative and condescending tone there are actually a few things that I agree with. Get lots of practice. How does someone hit sharp angles, serve at ___ speed, have great foot work/movement, etc.? They spend countless hours practicing. There are some shots I can't hit anymore because I don't have a coach anymore to practice those shots with, practice drills, etc. Yes, many players are lazy as hell - I met a few that talk like they are so interested in improving so I suggest some drills/practice. Once they see how much trouble they have with it (a huge sign of needing more practice) they don't want to do it anymore after the first attempt. A year goes by and they are doing no better in those areas. Some only want to hit or play games, but there's no way of getting around the need to practice/train.

pushing_wins
12-22-2012, 02:04 AM
Grow up! Quit whining, asking for advice, you going to be a star listening to our tips?

Go out there and be a man! I started playing at like 12 with my brother who was 21, I lost, lost, lost, but had desire, so got better and wipped him. Just go do your own thing or stop whining. Can't serve? Then PRACTICE! Poor forehand? PRACTICE!

There is no magical formula we can give you to lean, do what we did, that is work our tails off to get good, lose, win, win, lose, just fight through it. Run up to 5 miles, but also do sprints. Practice against a wall, just STOP with the "If I only hold my hand ......." nonsense.

I'm sorry, I just see so many wooses on this forum, can't play there is no suggestion for you except for you to play and learn yourself, how do you think we learned?

Even those who go to Tennis Academies only learn what they are taught, Tennis is much more than what you are taught, it's like boxing, unique to you.

merry christmas

luvforty
12-22-2012, 06:08 AM
practice is important, but I'd say that's about 30% of the improvement... the other 70% is understanding.... that's why good coaching (by others or self) is so important.

Tennis is the most technical sport... practicing the wrong thing will never improve a player.

Bagumbawalla
12-22-2012, 08:56 AM
Although not very tactfully expressed, I agree with the underlying concept. At least 70% of all the questions submitted, here, could be answered in exactly the same way- Practice, work on drills, work on fitness and movement, study the game, get coaching/instruction if you can afford it, test your skills by competing with a variety of players with different styles, continue to recognize and improve your weaknesses.

Having said that,there are the other 30% that have questions or videos that can benefit from advice.

sureshs
12-22-2012, 10:21 AM
Even those who go to Tennis Academies only learn what they are taught,

How do you know that?

slowfox
12-22-2012, 11:37 AM
Don't ask for forgiveness. Just dish out the tough love... yeah baby! :)

Mick
12-22-2012, 12:07 PM
A problem with seeking advices here is most of the time you would get advices involving the execution of shots that are beyond your playing level.

Mister drool
12-22-2012, 12:07 PM
i'm guessing someone got dumped by theyr girlfriend tonight...

sundaypunch
12-22-2012, 02:08 PM
It would appear that Mick3391 is off the wagon again......

Passion4Tennis
12-22-2012, 02:09 PM
I had an indoor match scheduled for tomorrow, but I had to cancel it due to a blister on my pinky. I put a band-aid on it, but it still hurts like the dickens. Has anyone else been in a similar circumstance and played through the pain?

Maui19
12-22-2012, 02:12 PM
Practicing bad form won't make you better. It will only insure that you will have consistently bad form.

Mick3391
12-22-2012, 03:22 PM
i'm guessing someone got dumped by theyr girlfriend tonight...

I'm laughing my head off with this post!!!!!!! No I didn't, but that's funny:)

No, I mean I started with my son, and I know my past, I mean I try to teach my son for example all court play, baseline, play at the net, and I'm a player, no teacher, I just don't think you can say "Well when the ball comes cut it down for slice", and that will solve it. I can say that, and he gets it over time, but Tennis I have found out is actually hard to learn, so my heart does go out, but there is no substitution for practice.

My son makes shots I never taught him, a short side slice to my left, but enough pace on it so I can't get near it, now I never taught him that, he got that out of playing 6 hours a day!

So yea I'm sorry for my post, but I do think there can be some good from it, you learn, in tennis, from playing, the racquet is an extention not just of the arm but mind, that's why it's so great.

But yea when we see these posts, "I'm a 4.0, help me with my serve", I'm like "What", just serve more, watch the pro's, get broad strokes.

When I played Justin Bower, he was gracious enough to hit with my son. He brought him up and said, "Do you know the three main styles of the best"? Mick was a little puzzled, Justin said "Well Nadal takes a shot and hits it back with placement with huge topspin, Djoke moves and hits hard flat shots, Federer does it all depending on the situation", to me that's great teaching, just broad strokes.

I mean I teach Mick to run around backhand and with all shots at his level fire it to the backhand, which is effective against kids, I teach him how to play the net, just the basics, I mean I'm no teacher.

BY THE WAY, finally I taught him a serve. I did all these videos, well hold yourself this way, do this, do that, no way! It's too confusing, finally I just told him when we rally to throw the ball up as high as you can and when it starts to drop nail it, he will FIND HIS SERVE.

Anyways thanks all for being kind

Mick3391
12-22-2012, 03:27 PM
http://i.qkme.me/3r2c7j.jpg

J

I love your moniker, but you left out the rest, can't believe one movie has had such a profound effect on society.

"I'm your huckleberry and that's just my game"

Or my favorite line, "My darling, we must talk, it appears we must redifine the nature of our association"

God bless you guys and Merry Christmas!

Mick3391
12-22-2012, 03:29 PM
I don't agree with some stuff here like the wooden rackets part, 95's being gigantic, or asking for advice is somehow wrong.

Once past the combative and condescending tone there are actually a few things that I agree with. Get lots of practice. How does someone hit sharp angles, serve at ___ speed, have great foot work/movement, etc.? They spend countless hours practicing. There are some shots I can't hit anymore because I don't have a coach anymore to practice those shots with, practice drills, etc. Yes, many players are lazy as hell - I met a few that talk like they are so interested in improving so I suggest some drills/practice. Once they see how much trouble they have with it (a huge sign of needing more practice) they don't want to do it anymore after the first attempt. A year goes by and they are doing no better in those areas. Some only want to hit or play games, but there's no way of getting around the need to practice/train.

You don't have to agree, but ask some on this forum, or guys I play with, they carry a 75 inch wood head to sharpen their skills, heh if you can hit that you can do anything. Then when you get a PS 90, you think "Man this is huge", which is good.

Mick3391
12-22-2012, 03:32 PM
Practicing bad form won't make you better. It will only insure that you will have consistently bad form.

Of course you are right, but does taking advice on this forum equate to good form?

I'm telling you, we become good by PLAYING, hours and hours, years and years, you may be told "Eastern Grip is best", yet when playing you might, on some shots go to Continental.

Example, I play a 4 1/4 inch grip, and I'm 6'1" with huge hands, the small grip allows me more movement to touch shots, but that's just me, as it should be to all of us.

Phonco
12-22-2012, 04:31 PM
I an extent, I agree. There isn't some magical tip or advice that will make you a better player. A lot of it is practice and hours on the court. You'll end up grooving strokes, developing smoothness, and finding out your particular style.

However, I don't understand what you mean by 'wussies' though. I feel it's fine to ask others for some advice. Maybe someone else can see something you can't, or mention an idea you never would have thought of. As long as you don't expect instant, magical cures/fixes. As others have pointed out, you don't want to ingrain bad form. For people developing strokes, I think it's to make sure you have the basics down, and confirmation from others is quite assuring. This is why the pros have different styles, but the same basic stroke mechanics. You could possibly develop these basics on your own, but why go through that extra wasted time figuring it out when someone can tell you what's missing from your foundation.

I will say, however, that after understanding the basics comes sheer repetition, exploration and practice. Find what works for you, what's comfortable, and what's repeatable. We can say do this and do that, but nothing beats implementation out on the courts.

Graphiteking
12-22-2012, 06:45 PM
Grow up! Quit whining, asking for advice, you going to be a star listening to our tips?

Go out there and be a man! I started playing at like 12 with my brother who was 21, I lost, lost, lost, but had desire, so got better and wipped him. Just go do your own thing or stop whining. Can't serve? Then PRACTICE! Poor forehand? PRACTICE!

There is no magical formula we can give you to lean, do what we did, that is work our tails off to get good, lose, win, win, lose, just fight through it. Run up to 5 miles, but also do sprints. Practice against a wall, just STOP with the "If I only hold my hand ......." nonsense.

I'm sorry, I just see so many wooses on this forum, can't play there is no suggestion for you except for you to play and learn yourself, how do you think we learned?

Even those who go to Tennis Academies only learn what they are taught, Tennis is much more than what you are taught, it's like boxing, unique to you.

BAH HUMBUG

vil
12-23-2012, 05:53 PM
Well, you've got a point in a way. I agree with, go out and there and practice but what if you do it all wrong? The thing is, if you are satisfied with your game , then that's fine but you might get to the point where you hit the brick wall and won't improve anymore because your style or form won't allow that. Sometimes a small piece of advice is all that is needed. You can get some great advice here if you are keen and interested. I don't think people are whining here and I wouldn't call them sissies. Don't get me wrong but that's just a very narrow minded view.

eidolonshinobi
12-23-2012, 08:10 PM
I agree with the motivation. I don't agree with the execution. I have filmed myself playing and posted it here for tips and critiques. I take all the critiques and comments and filter out what I can and can't do right away. There are somethings that are better with another set of eyes. Tennis has to be one of them because of how innately technical the sport is.

While I attribute my tennis success and development on my own motivation and perseverance, I can't deny that the folks in this forum who gave good advice has helped me on my tennis path.

sureshs
12-23-2012, 09:09 PM
I agree with the motivation. I don't agree with the execution. I have filmed myself playing and posted it here for tips and critiques. I take all the critiques and comments and filter out what I can and can't do right away. There are somethings that are better with another set of eyes. Tennis has to be one of them because of how innately technical the sport is.


What sport is not technical?

eidolonshinobi
12-23-2012, 09:28 PM
What sport is not technical?

Well I hope you're only prying for more elaboration. But tennis is more technical than some sports (like American football). I played varsity in high school, while some positions (mainly quarterback) requires more technical skill to perform well than others, you can be very good at the sport by just being athletic. Mostly anyone can just pick up a ball run towards a destination while trying to avoid getting tackled.

While in tennis you have at least two that you need to be proficient at to even win games. The serve and return. The serve especially needs more work than most strokes because of so many moving parts.

Source: I played basketball and got picked up for football my speed. Played and started at slot and free safety, I hated getting hit :( . I made varsity without trying, and we won CIF the year I played. I've played tennis for two years and I'm still at the 4.0ish level.

buuuuuutttttt....I think you're just nitpicking.

Mick3391
12-24-2012, 04:33 AM
Well, you've got a point in a way. I agree with, go out and there and practice but what if you do it all wrong? The thing is, if you are satisfied with your game , then that's fine but you might get to the point where you hit the brick wall and won't improve anymore because your style or form won't allow that. Sometimes a small piece of advice is all that is needed. You can get some great advice here if you are keen and interested. I don't think people are whining here and I wouldn't call them sissies. Don't get me wrong but that's just a very narrow minded view.

Yea I definitely said it wrong.

I'm not so sure about what you are saying, I agree with the statement "Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect", but I never had anyone teach me, many I know never had anyone, oh we get tips here or there, but like I said, playing others, you have to get better or you get killed, if someone is willing to put in hours on the wall, run, play, really enjoy it, you do learn.

I just don't think you can hear "Well hold your racquet like this, move this way and you'll have a monster forehand" for example, I do think you can only get a monster forehand by practicing non-stop.

Again, it's just my opinion, someone who never went to an academy, or took lessons. Sometimes I wonder how effective I am at teaching my son, maybe it's just our non-stop playing.

goober
12-24-2012, 06:21 AM
Grow up! Quit whining, asking for advice, you going to be a star listening to our tips?

Go out there and be a man! I started playing at like 12 with my brother who was 21, I lost, lost, lost, but had desire, so got better and wipped him. Just go do your own thing or stop whining. Can't serve? Then PRACTICE! Poor forehand? PRACTICE!

There is no magical formula we can give you to lean, do what we did, that is work our tails off to get good, lose, win, win, lose, just fight through it. Run up to 5 miles, but also do sprints. Practice against a wall, just STOP with the "If I only hold my hand ......." nonsense.

I'm sorry, I just see so many wooses on this forum, can't play there is no suggestion for you except for you to play and learn yourself, how do you think we learned?

Even those who go to Tennis Academies only learn what they are taught, Tennis is much more than what you are taught, it's like boxing, unique to you.

Uh you do realize this a tips/instruction forum? What exactly do you expect these threads to be about?

What you are doing is akin to going to the health/fitness section and telling people to stop being wussies and stop asking questions and get into shape and heal up.

TCF
12-24-2012, 06:37 AM
=======================

Mick3391
12-24-2012, 06:41 AM
Uh you do realize this a tips/instruction forum? What exactly do you expect these threads to be about?

What you are doing is akin to going to the health/fitness section and telling people to stop being wussies and stop asking questions and get into shape and heal up.

I know, I know, I said it stupid. I tried to make a point but did it in a lame way.

Mick3391
12-24-2012, 06:44 AM
I think your way can work up to a point. Depends what level of tennis your son wants to reach.

My daughter is also a 'gym rat' in regards to tennis. She will hit vs the wall for hours or vs the machine until we have to pull her off the court or with me until I beg for mercy. BUT....she also has had expert coaching and her strokes look like a pros, and her serve is technically light years ahead of most kids her age.

So down the line who do you think will win more? The tennis crazed kid who also has been taught the most efficient technique, tactics, strategy, and injury prevention methods....or the tennis loving kid who was not?

I honestly don't know, some teachers teach wrong, or teach something out of their natural style. Like teaching a boxer how to be aggressive and punch, doesn't work. I've had guys come up to my son and give just rotten advice.

To I just try to tell him how to play from the baseline, the net, all the shots, but I think only he can find HIS true style, he's not a robot, I think I can only give outlines, once I start saying "Do this, do that", he falls apart thinking.

TCF
12-24-2012, 06:55 AM
=========================

Mick3391
12-24-2012, 07:05 AM
I hear that....bad coaching is worse than no coaching!

I agree with you in some ways. I have students whose parents spend countless hours on formal lesson, driving and planning for tournaments, obsessing about where to play, and on and on. But the kids never just hit informally and experiment.

If they put some of that formal time into just letting the kids hit vs the wall, the machine, friends, parents, etc. they would improve much faster.

You know what's weird, when I am telling him what to do as the ball is coming to him, he's a disaster. When I shut my big mouth and hit it hard, he's fine, he's not thinking so hard, just doing.

That being said, at the club, the pro teaches this kid whose just awesome, he talks to the kid for each shot and it doesn't seem to matter.

So I don't know, for me I'm just going to give outlines, I mean I tried to explain serve, what a disaster, I'm not even aware of how I serve, I just do it, but once I said "Just hit it to me when we rally", he picked it up, so you got me!

5263
12-24-2012, 07:33 AM
When I played Justin Bower, he was gracious enough to hit with my son. He brought him up and said, "Do you know the three main styles of the best"? Mick was a little puzzled, Justin said "Well Nadal takes a shot and hits it back with placement with huge topspin, Djoke moves and hits hard flat shots, Federer does it all depending on the situation", to me that's great teaching, just broad strokes.

Anyways thanks all for being kind

You mean you don't have to watch 100's of hi speed video? :)

I agree with the idea that... a little direction can go a long way.

Hi I'm Ray
12-24-2012, 07:36 AM
You know what's weird, when I am telling him what to do as the ball is coming to him, he's a disaster. When I shut my big mouth and hit it hard, he's fine, he's not thinking so hard, just doing.

That being said, at the club, the pro teaches this kid whose just awesome, he talks to the kid for each shot and it doesn't seem to matter.

Did you mean while its approaching him, or before the shot? Usually a player needs to make up their mind as soon as they recognize the shot. Changing their mind or second guessing their choice of shot while the player is about to hit the ball usually leads to errors.

It's weird getting shot to shot instructions (before the shot) at first but you get used to it. Its not so hard to pick up if the instructions are simple or familiar adjustments and the incoming shots & location are predictable. Not saying this is you, but in general complex instructions and unpredictable balls in a random rally usually = disaster.

Akubra
12-24-2012, 07:38 AM
Yes it takes years to learn. But good advice and instruction can take years off the time it takes you to learn to play well. And unless you learn to do things well, no matter how much you play you'll always be limited. I know plenty of guys who play 2-3 times a week and have for many years and yet they don't get better. Their technique will always limit them.

It's great for you that apparently you never needed any help or advice. But as you said at the end of your post: it's like boxing, unique to you. Everyone is different. Some people get a lot from receiving help from others. Why do you care so much? Did you really come to the sub forum for Tennis Tips/Instruction purely to complain about people asking for... tennis tips and instruction?

Mick3391
12-24-2012, 07:39 AM
You mean you don't have to watch 100's of hi speed video? :)

I agree with the idea that... a little direction can go a long way.

Wait 5263, you are an instructor?

Tell us your view. What do you think, try not to be biased:)

I mean like I said, we meet so many "Experts", for some reason they feel the right to walk up to my son and say "Here, you need to hold this western grip", or what have you, it's amazing to me really.

Seems like whenever I give specific, I mean I taught him eastern grip one handed everything, but aside from that whenever I give exact instructions, do this, do that, it seems like he's thinking through it so hard he can't play, but when I give broad direction, run around the back hand and hit it to my backhand, then we just play he does it.

How much is enough? Would appreciate your input.

rkelley
12-24-2012, 07:44 AM
Grow up! Quit whining, asking for advice, you going to be a star listening to our tips?

Go out there and be a man! I started playing at like 12 with my brother who was 21, I lost, lost, lost, but had desire, so got better and wipped him. Just go do your own thing or stop whining. Can't serve? Then PRACTICE! Poor forehand? PRACTICE!

There is no magical formula we can give you to lean, do what we did, that is work our tails off to get good, lose, win, win, lose, just fight through it. Run up to 5 miles, but also do sprints. Practice against a wall, just STOP with the "If I only hold my hand ......." nonsense.

I'm sorry, I just see so many wooses on this forum, can't play there is no suggestion for you except for you to play and learn yourself, how do you think we learned?

Even those who go to Tennis Academies only learn what they are taught, Tennis is much more than what you are taught, it's like boxing, unique to you.

merry christmas

And happy New Year too, seriously.

rkelley
12-24-2012, 07:53 AM
When I played Justin Bower, he was gracious enough to hit with my son. He brought him up and said, "Do you know the three main styles of the best"? Mick was a little puzzled, Justin said "Well Nadal takes a shot and hits it back with placement with huge topspin, Djoke moves and hits hard flat shots, Federer does it all depending on the situation", to me that's great teaching, just broad strokes.

Djoke - Novak Djokovic - The tall Serbian dude, #1 in the world currently? His grip is almost full W on the fh and while he can certainly flatten it out when he wants, he hits with quite a bit of topspin generally - at least whenever I've watched him play. He hits with a lot of pace too, but don't think that those balls don't have a ton of topspin. He has a nice swing path and gets good topspin off the bh side as well. Love his bh.

5263
12-24-2012, 07:54 AM
Wait 5263, you are an instructor?

Tell us your view. What do you think, try not to be biased:)

I mean like I said, we meet so many "Experts", for some reason they feel the right to walk up to my son and say "Here, you need to hold this western grip", or what have you, it's amazing to me really.

Seems like whenever I give specific, I mean I taught him eastern grip one handed everything, but aside from that whenever I give exact instructions, do this, do that, it seems like he's thinking through it so hard he can't play, but when I give broad direction, run around the back hand and hit it to my backhand, then we just play he does it.

How much is enough? Would appreciate your input.

Well I think most of us coaches have made the mistake of talking too much and
and/or giving too much advice. Hopefully we learn from it. Several have made
good points that some amount of "good" instruction will help the time of
progression, but.... too much, even good advice, will slow things down too.

Maybe it's a little like trying to get to the nearest town when you don't know
where it is. If some one can point you in the correct direction, that will normally help a bit.
On the other hand, if he gives you complex, detailed direction on getting there, with a
few mistakes mixed in...you may be better off without him.

Mick3391
12-24-2012, 07:54 AM
Yes it takes years to learn. But good advice and instruction can take years off the time it takes you to learn to play well. And unless you learn to do things well, no matter how much you play you'll always be limited. I know plenty of guys who play 2-3 times a week and have for many years and yet they don't get better. Their technique will always limit them.

It's great for you that apparently you never needed any help or advice. But as you said at the end of your post: it's like boxing, unique to you. Everyone is different. Some people get a lot from receiving help from others. Why do you care so much? Did you really come to the sub forum for Tennis Tips/Instruction purely to complain about people asking for... tennis tips and instruction?

I think I've apologized like 4 times now.

5263
12-24-2012, 07:57 AM
He hits with a lot of pace too, but don't think that those balls don't have a ton of topspin. He has a nice swing path and gets good topspin off the bh side as well. Love his bh.

I think he is referring to trajectory more than a lack of spin in this case.

Akubra
12-24-2012, 08:00 AM
I think I've apologized like 4 times now.

Fair enough. Wasn't trying to pile on :) I skipped most of the responses.

vil
12-24-2012, 04:50 PM
Mick, I think we all know you didn't mean it the way you said it but seriously when you think about it, telling you step by step how to hit hard topspin forehand (for example) in this forum, will still not neccessarily make you do it right way. I think everybody realise that. Like 5263 says, a little bit of direction can be very useful but too much (I agree) can be confusing and can lead to worse execution of your shots.

slowfox
12-25-2012, 10:21 AM
Sometimes I find the Tips forum to be similar to the Racquets or Strings sections. Folks trying to find the holy grail of equipment. Which stick with what specs along with what string at which tension will make me a beast on the courts...?!? Or in this case, what technique must I employ so I can play like the pros... (and please let this advice be like a magic pill).

To some extent I agree with the OP. Cripes, I wonder how many out there will do something just because some guy on some free internet forum told you to do it. Go "pat the dog" and your forehand will be monstrous. Well, yes and no. For the yes guys, great. You found some tip that helps your game. But for the no guys, leave the dog alone and find something else that will work for you.

Do what works. And for the most part you can do that on your own, as long as you're mindful with your approach to the process. The key word being mindful. Now perhaps at some point you might find that doing it alone has taken you as far as you can go i.e. you've plateaued, which means what you're doing is no longer working. So then go seek out what will work, and do it.

I'm not against lessons, coaching, or even the Tips forum. Heck, I got a tip here that really improved my second serve (thanks guys!). But before I incorporated that bit of advice, I thought about it, compared it to other advice and techniques I know or have heard of, and then went out to try it and test it, and then assessed the results, and upon further reflection decided to use and practice my *new* second serve and make it a part of my game, because it works for me.

I think the sissies and whiners just want magic pills, be it in the form of a racquet or advice. Read the equipment forums long enough and you'll see the wisest adage is something along the lines of "it's not the bow, it's the archer". Good advice. Listen to that. Some guy on the internet told ya so... lol :)

The tips forum is like a store selling bows and arrows, which is a good thing. But think critically of the sales staff (like you would at any department store), and do think if you really need another arrow in your quiver right now. Perhaps you have enough already to get by...today.

Muppet
12-25-2012, 11:15 AM
When I hear a piece of advice, I visualize my service motion, forhand motion, backhand, etc. and I can "feel" whether or not the advice will fit into my form. If it seems to flow, I hope I can remember it until I practice next. Hearing and reading tips and recognizing things from footage that will help is very helpful to my game, such as it is.

Povl Carstensen
12-25-2012, 11:22 AM
Grow up! Quit whining, asking for advice, you going to be a star listening to our tips?

Go out there and be a man! I started playing at like 12 with my brother who was 21, I lost, lost, lost, but had desire, so got better and wipped him. Just go do your own thing or stop whining. Can't serve? Then PRACTICE! Poor forehand? PRACTICE!

There is no magical formula we can give you to lean, do what we did, that is work our tails off to get good, lose, win, win, lose, just fight through it. Run up to 5 miles, but also do sprints. Practice against a wall, just STOP with the "If I only hold my hand ......." nonsense.

I'm sorry, I just see so many wooses on this forum, can't play there is no suggestion for you except for you to play and learn yourself, how do you think we learned?

Even those who go to Tennis Academies only learn what they are taught, Tennis is much more than what you are taught, it's like boxing, unique to you.Bring it on, I'll whip your a.. Well maybe not.

tlm
12-25-2012, 12:36 PM
Grow up! Quit whining, asking for advice, you going to be a star listening to our tips?

Go out there and be a man! I started playing at like 12 with my brother who was 21, I lost, lost, lost, but had desire, so got better and wipped him. Just go do your own thing or stop whining. Can't serve? Then PRACTICE! Poor forehand? PRACTICE!

There is no magical formula we can give you to lean, do what we did, that is work our tails off to get good, lose, win, win, lose, just fight through it. Run up to 5 miles, but also do sprints. Practice against a wall, just STOP with the "If I only hold my hand ......." nonsense.

I'm sorry, I just see so many wooses on this forum, can't play there is no suggestion for you except for you to play and learn yourself, how do you think we learned?

Even those who go to Tennis Academies only learn what they are taught, Tennis is much more than what you are taught, it's like boxing, unique to you.



A lot of truth in this thread, tennis is not easy but if you want to improve you have to play a lot and work hard there are no easy short cuts.

I really got serious about this game 10 years ago and I just played as much as possible. When I was good enough to play at a decent level I just kept finding as many opponents to play as I could.

Ideally you want players better than you and just keep playing as many and as often as you can. There is a limit you don't want to play to many that are miles ahead of you just mostly somewhat better than you. Then just keep playing until you get good enough to hang with them and when you get better than them find some more that are tougher.

I took a lot of losses in the process but it definitely improved my game, you can't be afraid of taking a lot of beat downs because it will improve your game it just takes time. I think lessons and drill and tennis camps are great to, but you have to play a lot of sets if you really want to improve.

I have seen a lot of players that think that endless lessons trying to perfect their strokes will make them great players but I have not seen this work very often. They look great in lessons when being fed with plenty of time and their strokes look so nice, but put them in a match and they do not look anywhere near as good.

So they think they need to take more lessons which is exactly what they don't need they need to play sets and more and more sets, then they can actually figure out how to play the game.

TimothyO
12-25-2012, 01:53 PM
One very significant porblem with Mick's advice.

If all you do is "go out there and play" without instruction and advice you will most likely injure yourself, sometime permanently.

In fact, some of the safest and most effective ways to play tennis are NOT intuitive. And some of the most intuitive ways to hit are the MOST dangerous to wrist, elbow, and shoulder health. Just watch an untrained player serve and you'll see a "surgery patient to be".

I fully agree with Mick that court time is crucial. I quit one team because most of the guys would only show up on match day and then complain about getting their clocks cleaned. They literally wouldn't come to practice with a teaching pro or just hit casually. Meanwhile I was busting my butt many nights and even lunchtime to improve my serve and arranging practice sessions. Truly annoying.

There's no substitute for court time and match time but to make it efficient, safe, and beneficial it's best done with some thought and guidance by those with experience.

isilra
12-25-2012, 02:02 PM
Grow up! Quit whining, asking for advice, you going to be a star listening to our tips?

Go out there and be a man! I started playing at like 12 with my brother who was 21, I lost, lost, lost, but had desire, so got better and wipped him. Just go do your own thing or stop whining. Can't serve? Then PRACTICE! Poor forehand? PRACTICE!

There is no magical formula we can give you to lean, do what we did, that is work our tails off to get good, lose, win, win, lose, just fight through it. Run up to 5 miles, but also do sprints. Practice against a wall, just STOP with the "If I only hold my hand ......." nonsense.

I'm sorry, I just see so many wooses on this forum, can't play there is no suggestion for you except for you to play and learn yourself, how do you think we learned?

Even those who go to Tennis Academies only learn what they are taught, Tennis is much more than what you are taught, it's like boxing, unique to you.

I'm pretty sure you can learn all the staff that have been talked in that thread just by practicing your forehand;

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=446939

sundaypunch
12-25-2012, 05:53 PM
One very significant porblem with Mick's advice.

If all you do is "go out there and play" without instruction and advice you will most likely injure yourself, sometime permanently.

In fact, some of the safest and most effective ways to play tennis are NOT intuitive. And some of the most intuitive ways to hit are the MOST dangerous to wrist, elbow, and shoulder health. Just watch an untrained player serve and you'll see a "surgery patient to be".

I fully agree with Mick that court time is crucial. I quit one team because most of the guys would only show up on match day and then complain about getting their clocks cleaned. They literally wouldn't come to practice with a teaching pro or just hit casually. Meanwhile I was busting my butt many nights and even lunchtime to improve my serve and arranging practice sessions. Truly annoying.

There's no substitute for court time and match time but to make it efficient, safe, and beneficial it's best done with some thought and guidance by those with experience.

Anyone with an internet connection can log in here and give coaching advice. It doesn't take too long to figure out who the people are that know what they are talking about.

goober
12-26-2012, 06:29 AM
One very significant porblem with Mick's advice.

If all you do is "go out there and play" without instruction and advice you will most likely injure yourself, sometime permanently.

In fact, some of the safest and most effective ways to play tennis are NOT intuitive. And some of the most intuitive ways to hit are the MOST dangerous to wrist, elbow, and shoulder health. Just watch an untrained player serve and you'll see a "surgery patient to be".

I fully agree with Mick that court time is crucial. I quit one team because most of the guys would only show up on match day and then complain about getting their clocks cleaned. They literally wouldn't come to practice with a teaching pro or just hit casually. Meanwhile I was busting my butt many nights and even lunchtime to improve my serve and arranging practice sessions. Truly annoying.

There's no substitute for court time and match time but to make it efficient, safe, and beneficial it's best done with some thought and guidance by those with experience.

Besides injruy, 90% of people who go out and play tennis without any instruction will end up with

1) Pancake or waiter's grip serve
2) Ugly looking backhand
3) inability to volley consistently
4) bad overall form and footwork


You basically see the people all the time on public courts. Jake McClain was a perfect example.

If they play this way for long time they actually can get very consistent. Problem is that if they keep hitting the same way they can practice 10,000 hours and still be 3.5.

tlm
12-26-2012, 01:49 PM
Besides injruy, 90% of people who go out and play tennis without any instruction will end up with

1) Pancake or waiter's grip serve
2) Ugly looking backhand
3) inability to volley consistently
4) bad overall form and footwork


You basically see the people all the time on public courts. Jake McClain was a perfect example.

If they play this way for long time they actually can get very consistent. Problem is that if they keep hitting the same way they can practice 10,000 hours and still be 3.5.


There is some truth to this but I don't think anyone said no instruction, certainly in every sport there is need for some instruction. Most of the players I know that get injured are experienced players with good technique but have gotten older and are not as physically sound as they should be.

Most instructors would say that rafas forehand is incorrect or roddicks serve, same with johnny macs serve. These guys made a lot of money with some unorthodox tennis techniques.

Mick3391
12-26-2012, 05:25 PM
One very significant porblem with Mick's advice.

If all you do is "go out there and play" without instruction and advice you will most likely injure yourself, sometime permanently.

In fact, some of the safest and most effective ways to play tennis are NOT intuitive. And some of the most intuitive ways to hit are the MOST dangerous to wrist, elbow, and shoulder health. Just watch an untrained player serve and you'll see a "surgery patient to be".

I fully agree with Mick that court time is crucial. I quit one team because most of the guys would only show up on match day and then complain about getting their clocks cleaned. They literally wouldn't come to practice with a teaching pro or just hit casually. Meanwhile I was busting my butt many nights and even lunchtime to improve my serve and arranging practice sessions. Truly annoying.

There's no substitute for court time and match time but to make it efficient, safe, and beneficial it's best done with some thought and guidance by those with experience.


You may be right about that, but I started at like 12 and never got injured aside from the typical scratches or falling down. In fact I've never been injured until this year at 38, and that is only because I guess time is catching up with me. I don't remember any kids on the team getting injured.

I wish everyone could start at 12 or younger, like most things I think it makes things easier, like when people say "Tennis is hard", I have no clue what that means, seems like I've always played so it's not hard.

Seems like when you are an adult and start, then it's hard. It's like computers, some things are difficult for me, but my son just does it like a second language, no problem. Something happens to people when we grow up I think, not sure why.

TomT
12-26-2012, 06:52 PM
Well Mick3391, for an op that you said you thought about deleting after you posted it, it's elicited some pretty good comments, imo. I have to agree with the posters who said that qualified instruction really does help, and for some it's absolutely necessary.

But I also agree with what I take to be your main point(s), in that the key to improvement is work. That is, work without instruction sometimes results in improvement, but instruction without work doesn't.

Hope you're having a great holidays, and if you're ever in my area ... let's hit some tennis balls. :)

TomT
12-26-2012, 07:03 PM
Well I think most of us coaches have made the mistake of talking too much and/or giving too much advice. Hopefully we learn from it. Several have made good points that some amount of "good" instruction will help the time of progression, but.... too much, even good advice, will slow things down too.

Maybe it's a little like trying to get to the nearest town when you don't know
where it is. If some one can point you in the correct direction, that will normally help a bit.
On the other hand, if he gives you complex, detailed direction on getting there, with a few mistakes mixed in...you may be better off without him.Wise observation, imo. Effective coaching/instructing skills seem to me like they would be very difficult to learn. I have a lot of respect for people who are able to analyze the game in depth and in ways that would never even occur to me -- and then communicate just the right stuff (which might take the form of "broad strokes, or the form of specific technical instructions) to somebody to improve their game (provided the student also puts in the necessary work).

Mick3391
12-26-2012, 08:02 PM
Well Mick3391, for an op that you said you thought about deleting after you posted it, it's elicited some pretty good comments, imo. I have to agree with the posters who said that qualified instruction really does help, and for some it's absolutely necessary.

But I also agree with what I take to be your main point(s), in that the key to improvement is work. That is, work without instruction sometimes results in improvement, but instruction without work doesn't.

Hope you're having a great holidays, and if you're ever in my area ... let's hit some tennis balls. :)

I would love to be in your area, and to hit with you:)

I think if I made a mistake it's only because I've used anecdotal evidence, that is I started at 12 playing my brother who was 21, and was just never taught, was never injured, and at 14 played starting Varsity, only thing I can remember being taught was in 9th grade my coach told me to hit my serve the second the ball drops, aside from that I just played, no one taught me how to hit any shot, and no I don't think I'm a natural. Maybe when you are a kid it's just easier like it is for kids today on computers.

I like what that one guy said, that you give direction, but not exact technical advice. You know, "Fire to their backhand as much as you can as numbers are on your side" as opposed to "Well run past the ball, stop, place your feet exactly like this, make sure you are holding the racquet just like this, and blah blah", what is taught may not be right for that person.

So I guess all I am saying is that yea generalities are great, but I don't think there is any substitute for playing, for trial and error, I just don't see tennis as a robotic thing that one piece of input can really help.

TomT
12-26-2012, 08:18 PM
I would love to be in your area, and to hit with you:)Ok, hope that happens some day.

So I guess all I am saying is that yea generalities are great, but I don't think there is any substitute for playing, for trial and error, I just don't see tennis as a robotic thing that one piece of input can really help.I certainly agree with this. No substitute for concentrated court time. Just get out and WORK on stuff. :) It's really amazing what that can do for a person's game. :)

What do you think of this?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUdTxXkecr8

Mick3391
12-27-2012, 04:23 AM
Ok, hope that happens some day.

I certainly agree with this. No substitute for concentrated court time. Just get out and WORK on stuff. :) It's really amazing what that can do for a person's game. :)

What do you think of this?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUdTxXkecr8

First, I live in Seattle, so I'd LOVE to come to Florida, I used to live in Southern Cal, so it's much better playing in your weather than what I call "Water Tennis"! Plus you are a scientist, I'm fascinated by science, but I'm sure we'll never get down there, come up here and let's see how you do on the water!

Listening to your video I'm making notes, I disagree with his supposition, that is that sheer will of body can't make you play well, I don't believe that, I believe it's mental. As he's going on I agree totally, after I make a great play it's like "I did that"? I'm not thinking per se as I'm doing it. A guy interviewed Federer right after he destroyed this guy and he said "How did you do it, were you in what we call the zone", Federer said "I have no idea, I'd have to see the tape, I'm amazed myself". Same deal with boxers, after Leonard knocked out Ayub Kalu, I forget his name, but it was a beautiful three punch combination, they asked him about it and he said "I don't know what I did, I'd have to see the tape".

I believe Tennis is 100% mental, the mind see's pictures of other players, whether on TV or on court, it brings the body into the game, I mean when you are really doing well do you say to yourself as your opponent jams it over "Well I'm going to cut across the ball and hold my racquet just like this", or do you just do it?

John Wooden was a great basketball coach for I think it was UCLA. He'd have his team come out and shoot free throws, only thing is that they didn't use balls, they visualized the ball swishing each time. Well once he put a ball in their hands their free throws went way up. Same deal with Tennis, take a break and just watch Tennis, go back and you'll play better, because it's your brain taking over, then you will go back into making the same mistakes as before.

Recently at one of my sons tournaments, my friend and I just watched, it went on and on, so frustrating, they all played poor, I wanted to play SO BAD, I was just visualizing playing, when the tourney was over I grabbed a coach, man I felt unbeatable, every shot was PERFECT, EVERY ONE, I couldn't miss, I was so tired I almost passed out. That's visualization, I'm a big believer in it.

Yea that is a good video, getting 100 corrections hurts, doesn't help, same deal when you are playing, if aware of what you are doing you are thinking, and if thinking you aren't reacting, and if not reacting you are making mistakes. For example if I'm down game point, missed my first serve, I might think "Don't miss this", I have to wait until I clear my mind and just DO IT. If I think "If I miss this serve I lose", I will miss, guaranteed, so I have to do it.

You know I, until I started training my son and came on this forum NEVER THOUGHT about technique or what I do, I like I said always just played, when I tried to teach my son how to serve I didn't even know how I did it, I had to serve a few times and observe what I was doing.

TennisCJC
12-27-2012, 07:48 AM
You may be right about that, but I started at like 12 and never got injured aside from the typical scratches or falling down. In fact I've never been injured until this year at 38, and that is only because I guess time is catching up with me. I don't remember any kids on the team getting injured.

I wish everyone could start at 12 or younger, like most things I think it makes things easier, like when people say "Tennis is hard", I have no clue what that means, seems like I've always played so it's not hard.

Seems like when you are an adult and start, then it's hard. It's like computers, some things are difficult for me, but my son just does it like a second language, no problem. Something happens to people when we grow up I think, not sure why.

I am 56 yo and play with a variety of 4.5 females and 4.0-4.5 males. Most of us are between 35-65. Almost all the players 45 and older have had a significant injury from tennis. Several of these players played college level tennis. One of the players was a D1 all-American and he has had multiple knee surgeries. Tennis elbow is the most common, knee ACL and/or meniscus tears, ankle tendinitis, shoulder tendinitis and a variety of stains, pulls and tears are all very common. Most of these players use reasonably good technique and still suffer from over-use type injuries.

I play/practice 4-5 times a week but hard practice/play needs to be balanced with exercise (stretch and strengthen) and rest. Most hard core tennis players do a crappy job of rest because we are all a bit OCD additive about playing and tend to play too much and not rest enough in my view.

Anyhow, I have had 11 days off for the holidays and return to practice today.

Coach Chad
12-27-2012, 04:08 PM
I also agree to an extent...a good coach helps inspire a person to develope a style suited to them...not the coaches style...this means a person must play, play, and play some more!

Mick3391
12-27-2012, 10:46 PM
I am 56 yo and play with a variety of 4.5 females and 4.0-4.5 males. Most of us are between 35-65. Almost all the players 45 and older have had a significant injury from tennis. Several of these players played college level tennis. One of the players was a D1 all-American and he has had multiple knee surgeries. Tennis elbow is the most common, knee ACL and/or meniscus tears, ankle tendinitis, shoulder tendinitis and a variety of stains, pulls and tears are all very common. Most of these players use reasonably good technique and still suffer from over-use type injuries.

I play/practice 4-5 times a week but hard practice/play needs to be balanced with exercise (stretch and strengthen) and rest. Most hard core tennis players do a crappy job of rest because we are all a bit OCD additive about playing and tend to play too much and not rest enough in my view.

Anyhow, I have had 11 days off for the holidays and return to practice today.

Sorry about your injuries.

That's funny though, the OCD part, yea this year I've been hurt, taken pain medicine and just played. Everyone says "You must rest", I just can't, just play though it.

I've NEVER stretched, everyone says to, I guess I'm subburn, but no never stretched, never injured, but time is catching up to me so I better learn to stretch!

My older brother who introduced me to Tennis emailed me from the hospital, just had a new Titanium knee! Said he can play in like a month or so.

Mick3391
12-27-2012, 10:49 PM
I also agree to an extent...a good coach helps inspire a person to develope a style suited to them...not the coaches style...this means a person must play, play, and play some more!

Me teaching someone is a disaster! My heart goes out to all instructors, don't know how they do it.

I taught my son how to hold a racquet Eastern grip, how to push/pull a shot, and where you should hit, but everytime I open my mouth he plays worse, whenever we forget and just play he's much better.

He learned from watching me, for example I do a radical side spin that when it drops goes like 3 feet the side direction, I couldn't show him with the racquet, he just picked it up. I showed him how Fed runs around a backhand, he does that beautifully, but yea me as a teacher is a disaster!

luvforty
12-30-2012, 02:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SjbXWfACf2M#t=199s

he is absolutely right... too many excuses, explanations....

just look at all the other threads that are going on.. endless pointless debates

slowfox
12-30-2012, 07:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SjbXWfACf2M#t=199s

Nice. He's telling America to S-T-F-U... :twisted:

luvforty
12-30-2012, 07:42 PM
Nice. He's telling America to S-T-F-U... :twisted:

well - all these debates are to the point of being so ridiculous, that I am almost thinking

5263
01-01-2013, 01:10 PM
Wise observation, imo. Effective coaching/instructing skills seem to me like they would be very difficult to learn. I have a lot of respect for people who are able to analyze the game in depth and in ways that would never even occur to me -- and then communicate just the right stuff (which might take the form of "broad strokes, or the form of specific technical instructions) to somebody to improve their game (provided the student also puts in the necessary work).

Thank you and yes, it is imo.
I think this is a great way to look at the differences in Jy and MTM instruction.
We saw it in the tlm video challenge.
Jy, even on here, heaps tons of details; way more than a student can use, with
some critical subtle errors..like his classic unit turn....etc..
Too much info is the classic mistake of newer coaches and some don't catch it.
MTM, on the other hand, offers more of a general point in the right direction on
basics, and lets you feel your way a bit, with a big emphasis on avoiding any false info.

TomT
01-02-2013, 01:38 AM
Thank you and yes, it is imo.
I think this is a great way to look at the differences in Jy and MTM instruction.
We saw it in the tlm video challenge.
Jy, even on here, heaps tons of details; way more than a student can use, with
some critical subtle errors..like his classic unit turn....etc..
Too much info is the classic mistake of newer coaches and some don't catch it.
MTM, on the other hand, offers more of a general point in the right direction on
basics, and lets you feel your way a bit, with a big emphasis on avoiding any false info.Good points I think. Will take this into account while trying to appreciate what both JY and OW have to offer.

the hack
01-03-2013, 06:49 PM
TomT, I have read several of your posts. You have the makings of a true Tennis Bum. I have been to Florida twice to play tennis and would like to come again. Maybe we can hit when I make it over your way.

TennisCJC
01-04-2013, 11:28 AM
Sorry about your injuries.

That's funny though, the OCD part, yea this year I've been hurt, taken pain medicine and just played. Everyone says "You must rest", I just can't, just play though it.

I've NEVER stretched, everyone says to, I guess I'm subburn, but no never stretched, never injured, but time is catching up to me so I better learn to stretch!

My older brother who introduced me to Tennis emailed me from the hospital, just had a new Titanium knee! Said he can play in like a month or so.

I still love to play tennis after 35 years. So, I try to take care of myself so I can play as long as possible. I actaully like working out too so it isn't a hassle. I need to drop 10 lbs to take some stress off the legs.