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View Full Version : Fast supination = The key to racquet head speed ?


isilra
01-02-2013, 08:59 AM
I don't talk about WTA forehands, they simply create the rhs by taking huge swings and using the momentum. When we have a look at ATP, most of the players take the backswing by leading the elbow. That is done by a purpose. When you lead your backswing with your elbow, you automatically pronate your forearm. To strike the ball properly, you need to get your forearm back to its neutral position, so you need to supinate back. When you supinate, your racquet goes back and creates the position for a laggy forehand.

I think this is where the effortless racquet head speed is created. Today i tried to make the supination as fast as possible, and i have reached massive racquet head speed. When your racquet drops the slot, facing the ground, it is time to make the supination. Your huge body turn and loose grip mostly does the movement, but i have experienced even more speed when i actively help the supination with my forearm muscles but i don't feel any stress, pain, discomfort by doing that. Maybe that is the active wrist action that Djokovic always talks about. Any opinions ?

tendat
01-06-2013, 12:24 PM
I concur Melanie Oudin has a forhand like that and it took her far in 2009. Also thats what this vid says http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9Y44JTyQgQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfJmlrilePM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYwVh53nKUI
This one highlights leading with the elbow

DropShotArtist
01-06-2013, 12:27 PM
To strike the ball properly, you need to get your forearm back to its neutral position, so you need to supinate back.

Explain this. I thought at contact the forearm is in fact slightly pronated since the racquet face is slightly closed. Seems to me a laggy forehand can be created even without supination by simple wrist extension.

psv255
01-06-2013, 01:23 PM
Explain this. I thought at contact the forearm is in fact slightly pronated since the racquet face is slightly closed. Seems to me a laggy forehand can be created even without supination by simple wrist extension.

I think what isilra is saying is that at the end of the takeback, the racquet face is either close to or completely facing the ground, so in order to open up the racquet face (and not hit the ball with the edge of the racquet), we usually just let the racquet naturally open up by going from a pronated forearm to a neutral position (this "going" is what you would consider supination). He's suggesting actively doing this movement to further increase rhs.

@OP: I'd say everything in moderation, and if it helps consistency and doesn't injure you, then it's something to utilize.

WildVolley
01-06-2013, 01:34 PM
isilra,

I can't comment on your forehand without seeing a video of it, but you are the first I've heard of to actively try to supinate out of the 'pat-the-dog' position. I thought the consensus was that most players are attempting to relax or even perhaps slightly fight the supination which naturally occurs as the hand pulls the racket into the shot. The theory being that this induces some sort of stretch-shortening cycle. Again, I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if some sort of stretch-shortening reflex is even taking place, but I'd try it both ways. I'd be a little cautious about actively supinating, but ultimately the proof is in the pudding.

isilra
01-06-2013, 04:01 PM
Explain this. I thought at contact the forearm is in fact slightly pronated since the racquet face is slightly closed. Seems to me a laggy forehand can be created even without supination by simple wrist extension.

The supination that i talk about is happened just after your racquet drops the slot and you begin forward swing. The pronation that you mention is made when you contact the ball and it just helps to get extra spin. So it goes like pronate-supinate-pronate.

Conscious wrist extension is another option for sure, but i think it can lead to some injuries and a broken kinetic chain. Not sure though.

I think what isilra is saying is that at the end of the takeback, the racquet face is either close to or completely facing the ground, so in order to open up the racquet face (and not hit the ball with the edge of the racquet), we usually just let the racquet naturally open up by going from a pronated forearm to a neutral position (this "going" is what you would consider supination). He's suggesting actively doing this movement to further increase rhs.

@OP: I'd say everything in moderation, and if it helps consistency and doesn't injure you, then it's something to utilize.

Exactly. Not talking about a totally active supination but helping your unit turn with your forearm a bit. Also it's like wrist extension, i can't be sure if it gives you a desired consistency and if it makes you prone to injuries or not. I need to practice more to understand.

dominikk1985
01-06-2013, 04:40 PM
I think some are overrating the contribution of those forearm movements to horizontal racket speed.

you can add a little by using the forearm well but most speed is created by ground reaction force, good rotation, separation and getting the concept of a centrifugal swing around the body.

the supination is mostly pre stretching the pronator muscles. however harder pre stretch does not always mean more more. you can generate almost the same RHS with a WTA backswing as long you add at least a little supination in the end. muscle stretch is important but a small micro stretch does almost lead to the same result as a huge pronation to supination move at the end of the backswing. the stretch shortening cycle does not work in a way that harder stretch creates always more power.

luvforty
01-06-2013, 04:53 PM
you can add a little by using the forearm well but most speed is created by ground reaction force, good rotation, separation and getting the concept of a centrifugal swing around the body.



the yank-left people should read the above and understand what it means.

Cheetah
01-06-2013, 05:42 PM
the yank-left people should read the above and understand what it means.

Do you understand what he said?

10isfreak
01-06-2013, 05:52 PM
During a forehand, your forearm naturally supinates as you swing forward... what pros do is the exact opposite of what you‘re talking about: they close their racket face by pronating, not by supinating.

TennisCJC
01-06-2013, 06:00 PM
Fast Supination does not sound like the key to me. Leading with the elbow = OK as it shortens the swing, kinda of forces you to use a bit of loop and closes the racket face a bit. Having the wrist lay back a wee bit as you start forward = OK as this puts your forearm and wrist in the ideal contact position. But, focusing on moving from pronation to supination as you start forward is not part of my forehand. My view is most high level players are not doing this either. I think this would lead to an inconsistent stroke. Not to say I am a high level player but for me and my observation of college players and pros, I don't see it.

But, to each their own and if you like it, maybe it works for you.

10isfreak
01-06-2013, 06:01 PM
If ALL pros do pronate to get a slightly closed face at contact, they do not all do it properly or, rather, some use a better technique than others to achieve it. But, regardless, these are things that we ADD to fundamentally sound forehands... we need the basics first. Proper footwork, proper preparation, good rotation and getting a good use of your bigger muscles are keys to generating power. Then, once you have it, we can start talking about how to use it in different ways and about how to make it evwn more dangerous.

WildVolley
01-06-2013, 06:07 PM
If ALL pros do pronate to get a slightly closed face at contact, they do not all do it properly or, rather, some use a better technique than others to achieve it. But, regardless, these are things that we ADD to fundamentally sound forehands... we need the basics first. Proper footwork, proper preparation, good rotation and getting a good use of your bigger muscles are keys to generating power. Then, once you have it, we can start talking about how to use it in different ways and about how to make it even more dangerous.

Why are you assuming that the OP doesn't have a fundamentally sound fh?

DropShotArtist
01-06-2013, 06:28 PM
I think what isilra is saying is that at the end of the takeback, the racquet face is either close to or completely facing the ground, so in order to open up the racquet face (and not hit the ball with the edge of the racquet), we usually just let the racquet naturally open up by going from a pronated forearm to a neutral position (this "going" is what you would consider supination). He's suggesting actively doing this movement to further increase rhs.

@OP: I'd say everything in moderation, and if it helps consistency and doesn't injure you, then it's something to utilize.

But you don't need to open up the racquet with supination, it will open up naturally by virtue of the swing path going from low to high. To hit top spin you in fact WANT to lead with the top edge of the racquet, no?

sureshs
01-06-2013, 07:13 PM
I don't talk about WTA forehands, they simply create the rhs by taking huge swings and using the momentum. When we have a look at ATP, most of the players take the backswing by leading the elbow. That is done by a purpose. When you lead your backswing with your elbow, you automatically pronate your forearm. To strike the ball properly, you need to get your forearm back to its neutral position, so you need to supinate back. When you supinate, your racquet goes back and creates the position for a laggy forehand.

I think this is where the effortless racquet head speed is created. Today i tried to make the supination as fast as possible, and i have reached massive racquet head speed. When your racquet drops the slot, facing the ground, it is time to make the supination. Your huge body turn and loose grip mostly does the movement, but i have experienced even more speed when i actively help the supination with my forearm muscles but i don't feel any stress, pain, discomfort by doing that. Maybe that is the active wrist action that Djokovic always talks about. Any opinions ?

But after supination comes the pronation before contact, no? What is the point of just making the supination faster?

luvforty
01-06-2013, 07:28 PM
Do you understand what he said?

which part is hard to understand?

Cheetah
01-06-2013, 07:48 PM
which part is hard to understand?

i didn't say there was.
Can you explain how ground forces contribute to rhs?

psv255
01-06-2013, 11:57 PM
But you don't need to open up the racquet with supination, it will open up naturally by virtue of the swing path going from low to high. To hit top spin you in fact WANT to lead with the top edge of the racquet, no?

Yep, I definitely agree that there's no need to force supination to open up the racquet, since it opens up because of the swing path. Supination is still occurring, though, since it's hard to imagine a player hitting a forehand with a fully pronated forearm from end of takeback to contact. I agree that you want to lead with the edge; the reason we don't actually hit the edge, though, is because the racquet face opens up before contact, right? (see 0:13 to 0:17 here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk&feature=player_detailpage#t=12s)) This "opening-up" is what isilra is trying to facilitate by focusing on making it a faster movement.

I personally don't think that supination is the cause for what it is exactly that he found more effective; it could just be better shot timing when focusing on what the hand/forearm are doing....

DropShotArtist
01-07-2013, 02:48 PM
Yep, I definitely agree that there's no need to force supination to open up the racquet, since it opens up because of the swing path. Supination is still occurring, though, since it's hard to imagine a player hitting a forehand with a fully pronated forearm from end of takeback to contact. I agree that you want to lead with the edge; the reason we don't actually hit the edge, though, is because the racquet face opens up before contact, right? (see 0:13 to 0:17 here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk&feature=player_detailpage#t=12s)) This "opening-up" is what isilra is trying to facilitate by focusing on making it a faster movement.

I personally don't think that supination is the cause for what it is exactly that he found more effective; it could just be better shot timing when focusing on what the hand/forearm are doing....

Hey Psv, take a look at this link, tell me what you think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--hG8v0Fdj4

Notice how the racquet face is kinda closed from the very beginning and closed all the way through the swing path. I know it's more for a beginner, but the fundamental are there, tell me what you think?.

psv255
01-07-2013, 03:11 PM
Hey Psv, take a look at this link, tell me what you think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--hG8v0Fdj4

Notice how the racquet face is kinda closed from the very beginning and closed all the way through the swing path. I know it's more for a beginner, but the fundamental are there, tell me what you think?.

Yeah, Tom's definitely disproving my point with the shadow swing. The racquet face is closed all the way up to contact.

Isn't there an element of ssc that requires you to open up a bit though? Or is my eastern-grip, flat-hitting bias is keeping me from realizing something here?