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View Full Version : 1hbh - staying sideways (not!)


luvforty
01-02-2013, 07:12 PM
this is a classic teaching concepts that is as out-dated as the linear FH, but is not talked about much, perhaps due to the 1hbh being less popular.

unfortunately seems this method is still being widely taught.

in the days of 65in wood and 85in graphite, staying sideways and hit thru the ball makes sense, to avoid shanks.

today's equipment changed the FH, and it changes the 1hbh in a very similar way... players now hit across the ball.. wawrinka, schiavone, dimitrov, gasquet, fed... they all open up thru impact to hit across

what does this mean exactly -

1) the backswing does not need to be as deep as the old method... similar to open stance FH has a shallower back turn

2) upper arm connected to the chest during the foward swing, makes timing easier, ensure solid contact.

3), chest angle can be varied - facing more towards the sky to handle high balls, facing more towards the ground for low ones.

4), the swing path now makes it possible to add forearm motion to further increase spin.

mikeler
01-03-2013, 05:01 AM
I hit my 1 hander better with a closed stance.

sureshs
01-03-2013, 06:39 AM
All that is true, and I hit many open stance 1 handers myself, but closed stance and sideways is still the best for power.

The only advantage I see with modern technology is that it is easier to put more wrist and roll over the ball.

Relinquis
01-03-2013, 07:03 AM
what does number 2 mean?

maggmaster
01-03-2013, 07:15 AM
The goal of any stroke is to first create a totally reproducible swing path, this allows for proper feedback so you can correct when errors begin to occur. After you have created your repeatable stroke, then you can vary it, each time you vary it however you should be attempting to create another repeatable swing path that can be used for feedback. Of course there will be times in a match when you must improvise but you always want to be able to fall back on that standard stroke.

vandre
01-03-2013, 07:33 AM
don't forget that needs to be some sort of weight transfer whichever stance you use.

i remember what a teaching pro who was trying to fix my 2hbh told me: open and closed stances are relative terms. in fact, the problem that he was specifically trying to fix was my stance. i was hitting my 2hbh in an open stance and i couldn't figure out why i was hitting all my bhs down the line but i couldn't go crosscourt with it even when i tried. what he did that ended up working was he changed my footwork to a more of a closed stance and i can go anywhere from the same stance.

now assuming that from the waist down the 1hbh and the 2hbh are pretty much the same (which may or may not be true) it might be possible that your stance affects your ability to hit to certain parts of the court.

sundaypunch
01-03-2013, 07:43 AM
I don't see it. Federer, Gasquet, etc. all still stay sideways for the most part thru impact. They hit with a closed stance and kick their left hand back to keep the chest from opening up too much prior to contact.

I am a fan of modern strokes. Classic instruction is still, by far, more relevant with the 1HBH than with the FH or 2HBH.

watungga
01-03-2013, 07:57 AM
I tried and tried so much to get that flat punch and hit a spot where I want it to be. It gave me winners but I shank way too much and hurt my arm. It was too volatile (scary that it may lead to mistakes) and I happened not to use it in tournaments.

Now, I started supinating on a brush-up and it gives me mindless and reliable shots over the net. I don't like the feel but preferred much of the result that I was able to squarely hit the ball and get it over the net with ease.

oldschoolrules
01-03-2013, 08:00 AM
+1 on stance being relative to intended direction of shot, particularly when trying to drive through the ball with 1hbh (at least for me). For example, I have a hard time going down the line from a more open stance than one that's more closed or neutral. My experience is that when I try otherwise - often because I'm late getting into position - it is much harder to make contact in the right spot resulting in my either being too far in front or too far behind the ideal "hitting zone" for my standard eastern grip. Slice bh's do not pose as big a problem, however, relative to stance but do tend to become less effective when I open up my shoulders too much.

TennisCJC
01-03-2013, 08:59 AM
I play 2hbh but was watching video of Fed recently. He does pull up and across on his 1HBH and his shoulders open a bit. I was surprised to see this but he appeared to be hitting from the lower outside and pulling up and thru the upper inside - this type of pattern / through contact. But, he does not totally open his shoulders like a FH or 2 HBH. He also uses a lot of closed stance and doesn't open shoulders when hitting wide balls too. My view is current pros do open a wee bit more than in the past but they still hit mostly closed or neutral and the front shoulder stops opening well before the chest opens to the net. It is like it opens enough for them to pull across but the shoulders do not fully rotate to face the net.

watungga
01-03-2013, 09:13 AM
Quickmeme: Staying sideways on a 1HBH, you gonna have a very bad time.

Stand straight. Hang a ball (4feet away from you) on your 12:00 position, shoulder level. The another at 1:00, 1:30 and at 2:00 o'clock.

On a rigid shoulder, which of the balls you think you could hit with an overwhelming backhand punch.

I think "ball at 1:30" is in the best position for DTL, and 2:00 for Xcourt.

Shoulder should be moving along with the punch, not static as staying stuck sideways.

luvforty
01-03-2013, 09:24 AM
what does number 2 mean?

put a small towel under the right arm pit, and hit a staying-sidways 1hbh, that towl is gonna fall off quite early... the arm is flying away from the body... if the timing is off - bad bounce, a gust of wind, etc, now the arm is hopelessly orphaned out there with nothing to support it.

now, try to keep that towel under the arm pit as long as possible, so you open up thru the shot and hit across the ball.... and if timing is off, you still has the right chest there to provide support.

luvforty
01-03-2013, 09:31 AM
this is a decent explanation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bw0EaQEcttY#t=299s

SystemicAnomaly
01-03-2013, 10:41 AM
I've got to second what sundaypunch says in his/her post above.The basic idea/premise if this thread is incorrect. Modern players, for the most part, stop (or slow) the rotation of the torso in order to facilitate a more complete kinetic transfer to the shoulder/arm. It is not all that common to see a modern elite player finish with "the belly button to the net".

There might, at times, be a bit more torso uncoiling than seen in older classic 1-handed BHs. Sometimes, a player hitting x-court might open up a bit more. However, I do not see them using using torso rotation at contact (or for most of the forward swing for that matter). We might see the chest/torso opening up very late in the follow-thru as part of their recovery motion (to recover to a suitable location).

What I do see in the modern BH is that players will employ a generous coil on the preparation phase of the stroke. The will often uncoil some 30 degrees (sometimes more?) to initiate the forward swing. However, we are not seeing a 90+ degree uncoiling as Tom Avery would have us believe. With the modern stroke we also might see more opening up of the front shoulder on the follow-thru. However, the back shoulder still stays back most of the time -- just as it did for the classic version of the stroke. With the added movement of the front shoulder, the should blades might squeeze together more on the finish and the chest/front shoulder is expanded more. But, on the whole, the entire torso does not keep rotating for the execution/follow-thru (except for recovery purposes).

We might also see more semi-open stances employed than we did in the past. It was not uncommon in the 80s to see players like Becker use this on a serve return. We see some modern players employ this on other shots as well. I use a semi-open stance , but never a fully open stance, on shots quite often myself. However, from what I have observed, the de facto standard for modern players is still a closed stance or a neutral stance on the 1-handed BH. Please provide us with several video examples of active pros to back up your claims.
.

luvforty
01-03-2013, 11:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6p5ZdGR4hU

here wawrinka opens up more than dimitrov does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktIo0PHa0e4

fran is a more extreme example.

TheCanadian
01-03-2013, 11:16 AM
Probably the worst piece of advice in this forum's history. It's not an either or proposition. One needs to stay sideways at the point of contact and not open up with the hips too early. Once the ball has left your racquet, you can finish with the said racquet between your legs. Seriously, stay sideways during the contact point and then you can progressively open up during the last stages of the movement. But it's critical that your hips and chest remain sideways in a locked position while you're making contact with the ball.

TheCanadian
01-03-2013, 11:43 AM
I will add that if you open up your hips too soon you won't be able to hit down the line BHs or control the ball. I know what I'm talking about because I switched from a 2HB to a 1HB and opening up my hips and chest too early continues to be something I need to watch.

Thud and blunder
01-04-2013, 02:34 AM
I think OP has it right; it's noticeable how some of the top players nowadays are using their off-arm much less aggressively as a counterweight; it's not black and weight, either-or, but you do notice it. Wawrinka seems to be the most extreme among the men, and Schiavone among the women, though hers is so extreme, it just looks wrong to my classically-trained eyes!

Here's a nice comparison vid; you can see how various pros emphasise or de-emphasise the counterweight. I'd say Robredo (and Hanescu) are at the one extreme, Wawrinka at the other: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lajT4Vgw1ss

DeShaun
01-04-2013, 06:11 AM
I seem to spray more balls when hitting from an open stance, not to mention the power level is much lower.

SystemicAnomaly
01-04-2013, 11:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6p5ZdGR4hU

here wawrinka opens up more than dimitrov does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktIo0PHa0e4

fran is a more extreme example.

When I asked for video examples I fully expected you to post Wawarinka and Henin since they both have rather extreme BH motions. Did not even have Francesca Schiavone in mind. In the past, I have looked at a number of slow-mo videos of Wawrinka and Henin hitting BHs. They are pretty much side-on at contact. Compare that to how much the body is open at contact for FHs or 2-handed BHs. When Stan & Justine do open up on their BH, it is much later in the swing -- late in the follow-thru phase of the stroke.

Below are a number of BHs from Francesca from a little over a year ago. While she may show an extreme rotation in her BHs in the practice video, it appears that most of her BHs in actual play (in the USO vid) were much more conventional.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0wjnOXKquw

Mauresmo also uses a conventional 1-handed BH. It does not appear that the extreme rotation on 1-handed BHs is any sort of modern standard in either the ATP or the WTA.

http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2008/06/23/mauresmox.jpg

luvforty
01-04-2013, 12:03 PM
maybe we got wires crossed... I was assuming 1hbh topspin...

so for topspin 1hbh alone, the video in your reply showed a bunch of service returns where she didn't have much time to open up.... only 1 rally shot towards the end when she had time and she did open up.

but even for the 1hbh slice, todays' slices are more across than the days of 65-85 in.

observations aside.... if the fh is hitting more across, why shouldn't the bh, no reason not to take advantage of the bigger head and get more control/spin from it... player can take more aggressive cut when hitting across.

5263
01-04-2013, 02:19 PM
maybe we got wires crossed... I was assuming 1hbh topspin...

so for topspin 1hbh alone, the video in your reply showed a bunch of service returns where she didn't have much time to open up.... only 1 rally shot towards the end when she had time and she did open up.

but even for the 1hbh slice, todays' slices are more across than the days of 65-85 in.

observations aside.... if the fh is hitting more across, why shouldn't the bh, no reason not to take advantage of the bigger head and get more control/spin from it... player can take more aggressive cut when hitting across.
excellent thread.

sundaypunch
01-04-2013, 05:46 PM
observations aside.... if the fh is hitting more across, why shouldn't the bh, no reason not to take advantage of the bigger head and get more control/spin from it... player can take more aggressive cut when hitting across.


The classic 1HBH can easily hit across the ball. Gasquet is a perfect example. He can hit absolutely ridiculous angles and topspin - and he remains sideways at contact. He opens up shortly after contact but kicks the left arm back during his swing to keep from opening up too early.

With a FH (and 2HBH), it is almost impossible to hit across the ball while keeping your shoulders closed at impact. If you think about this logically, your body is in the way. With a 1HBH, your arm is on the net side of your body. You can swing across the ball easily while closed at impact.