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5263
01-05-2013, 03:57 PM
Isn't the "half volley", a stroke technique? Or is it situation based?
Thats how I learned it and this technique was normally used for balls when the
player needed to make the shot quickly after the bounce and sometimes on the
rise further from the deck.

This writer below seems to think the half volley is situation and that the name
is not very descriptive of the shot.
Subtle issue, but curious what some of you thought.

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/the-911-shot-of-tennis-the-half-volley

I disagree with most of this article, and especially since I think the name is very
properly descriptive of this "stoke".
Imo the Half volley is mostly a volley that has been lengthened just a bit to
provide some power and control, much like you would do on a volley when the
ball comes slowly to be volleyed and you want to add power to the volley
since the ball was coming so slow.

psv255
01-05-2013, 04:31 PM
I've always considered (and consistently heard of) a half-volley to be a pickup directly off the bounce, with a shortened swing than one would normally employ on a groundstroke.

I have never heard of it used with respect to a specific volley technique/stroke.
Plus, wouldn't what you describe as a "lengthened" volley be too similar to a regular volley, save the firmness of the shot?

EDIT: Some first videos that come up when searching for "half volley"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WAXezQCZmzI#t=116s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ3nrVfNTOU

Say Chi Sin Lo
01-05-2013, 04:34 PM
I look at it as an improvisation of the intended stroke.

bhupaes
01-05-2013, 04:44 PM
Half volleys in the baseline to no man's land area would require a full stroke, albeit with a shortened back swing. At least, that's how I hit it. A half volley near the net would be more like a touch shot, involving gentler pickup and placement, right? Not my forte...

5263
01-05-2013, 04:51 PM
Plus, wouldn't what you describe as a "lengthened" volley be too similar to a regular volley, save the firmness of the shot?

Yes, but isn't that exactly my point and almost exactly what I said?
Isn't it correct?
thanks

5263
01-05-2013, 04:56 PM
I've always considered (and consistently heard of) a half-volley to be a pickup directly off the bounce, with a shortened swing than one would normally employ on a groundstroke.

Right; and it seems many folks do, but

see how you are combining 2 things.
1. situation
2. technique

I'm thinking it is really just the technique, because you can use any type stroke
to hit it right off the bounce, like a full swing; but that does not make that full
swing a half volley does it, if the half volley was not used as the technique to
play the ball.
The situation is a short hop and short hop is not a technique.
Seems many are automaticly linking the short hop situation with the technique of
half volley. Mostly they are, but not always.
subtle

tennis_balla
01-05-2013, 05:02 PM
Half volley http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI0Gpt-6SAw

5263
01-05-2013, 05:54 PM
Half volley http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI0Gpt-6SAw

Not sure which side of this you are contributing to, but I see the vid as
support for what I've been saying. Several of those Delpo baseline strokes were
short hopped right off the deck with relatively full ground strokes, but imo,
should not be called half volleys.
Thanks for the excellent link.

Fed made a nice half volley stroke though!

psv255
01-05-2013, 06:00 PM
Right; and it seems many folks do, but

see how you are combining 2 things.
1. situation
2. technique

I'm thinking it is really just the technique, because you can use any type stroke
to hit it right off the bounce, like a full swing; but that does not make that full
swing a half volley does it, if the half volley was not used as the technique to
play the ball.
The situation is a short hop and short hop is not a technique.
Seems many are automaticly linking the short hop situation with the technique of
half volley. Mostly they are, but not always.
subtle

Valid point, but wouldn't an overhead also be combining situation and technique (i.e. only when the ball is a certain height or in a certain position)?

Nonetheless, the definition you bring forth just seems so starkly different from anything I've heard; at first it seemed like you were simply stating the def'n of a putaway volley! I guess semantics are irrelevant as long as we all understand each other...

5263
01-05-2013, 06:35 PM
Valid point, but wouldn't an overhead also be combining situation and technique (i.e. only when the ball is a certain height or in a certain position)?

Nonetheless, the definition you bring forth just seems so starkly different from anything I've heard; at first it seemed like you were simply stating the def'n of a putaway volley! I guess semantics are irrelevant as long as we all understand each other...

I guess there isn't a right or wrong here, but thought it interesting and wondered
what others thought.
thanks

As to the overhead, I think it also is more of a technique and I often use it on
certain type of shoulder high balls and even go to a knee in some odd cases,
where I've gotten a weird bounce.
I do think it can be of some importance to separate a situation from a stroke,
to keep things straight for discussion and even in shot selection.

Avles
01-05-2013, 07:46 PM
Well here's what Merriam Webster has to say: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/half-volley

Your definition of "half volley" is reasonable, but if most people who hear the term immediately think "short hop" it's going to require some additional explanation when used your way. So it might be better to stick to common usage.

Maybe worth noting that the two terms are used the same way in soccer-- volley means kicking the ball before ground contact, half-volley means kicking it on the short hop. In both cases they fundamentally refer to situations, not techniques (though the situations may call for particular techniques).

I guess soccer got its terminology from tennis?

tennis_balla
01-06-2013, 01:09 AM
Not sure which side of this you are contributing to, but I see the vid as
support for what I've been saying. Several of those Delpo baseline strokes were
short hopped right off the deck with relatively full ground strokes, but imo,
should not be called half volleys.
Thanks for the excellent link.

Fed made a nice half volley stroke though!

Fed's last shot was a half volley, that's what everyone calls it. Even commentators.

Mick3391
01-06-2013, 03:43 AM
Isn't the "half volley", a stroke technique?
Thats how I learned it and this technique was normally used for balls when the
player needed to make the shot quickly after the bounce and sometimes on the
rise further from the deck.

This writer below seems to think the half volley is situation and that the name
is not very descriptive of the shot.
Subtle issue, but curious what some of you thought.

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/the-911-shot-of-tennis-the-half-volley

I disagree with most of this article, and especially since I think the name is very
properly descriptive of this "stoke".
Imo the Half volley is mostly a volley that has been lengthened just a bit to
provide some power and control, much like you would do on a volley when the
ball comes slowly to be volleyed and you want to add power to the volley
since the ball was coming so slow.

Lets take your vocabulary and mincing words against my natural talent and HARD WORK AND FUN and see who comes out on top, are you joking? "Well a half drop blah side spin", are you joking?

If you have to think about it that hard you can't play, and if you think you can come play me, even in horrible shape I've DESTROYED 5.5 players, would have Justin Bower, just PLAY ALL, DON'T LISTEN TO THIS NONSENSE.

USS Tang
01-06-2013, 04:39 AM
For me, the half-volley is a very easy shot to make. It should come naturally to those who fielded short-hops in the infield in Little League, Pony League, etc. at a young age. The keys to a successful half-volley are:
(1) Get the racket back as early as possible;
(2) Keep the racket parallel to the court surface during the entire swing;
(3) Hit the ball flat;
(4) If the ball is coming fast, you may want to start your swing even before it has crossed the net;
(5) Do not block the ball; continue with a full follow-through but one that remains parallel to the plane of the court surface;
(6) Drive the ball deep; do not dink it; and
(7) Remember timing is everything; the mechanics of the stroke are simple.

Relinquis
01-06-2013, 05:15 AM
why are you guys are trying to reinvent, or rename, the half-volley? surely tennis better served by teaching why it's important and how to do it.

5263
01-06-2013, 06:52 AM
Fed's last shot was a half volley, that's what everyone calls it. Even commentators.

I don't know what our disconnect is here. Didn't I clearly agree that Fed's shot
off that short hop was clearly half volley technique?
I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

The question I posed is more about Delpo's full strokes off the short hops at the BL.
Those are not half volley technique and I wouldn't call them that; would you?
But they do fit the definition we find when we google it with many sources.

I'm also just raising the question, "Is it worth while to recognize and separate the
difference between the half volley technique and the short hop situation"?

Cindysphinx
01-06-2013, 06:53 AM
Just had a lesson on this. Spent some time on half-volleys from the mid-court -- which is a situation in which a lot of half-volleys have to be hit.

Since I am already inside the court, I should be in my volley grip. When the ball would need to be half-volleyed, the pro had me make only one adjustment. I used my wrist to close the racket face (maintaining my Continental volley grip). Then, with no backswing, I could kind of guide the ball with a follow-through.

I have to say, this really worked nicely. No need to change my grip. No balls that popped way up because of the Continental grip. It was easy to change the wrist a touch. I had excellent directional control.

Now I just have to practice it and own it.

5263
01-06-2013, 07:04 AM
Lets take your vocabulary and mincing words against my natural talent and HARD WORK AND FUN and see who comes out on top, are you joking? "Well a half drop blah side spin", are you joking?

If you have to think about it that hard you can't play, and if you think you can come play me, even in horrible shape I've DESTROYED 5.5 players, would have Justin Bower, just PLAY ALL, DON'T LISTEN TO THIS NONSENSE.

This is the kind of stuff you often confuse, lol. Why do you relate this to your
supposed tennis talent? Maybe you can "Destroy" at 5.5 while you're out of shape,
but in what sport? :)

We are talking about a coaching and communication point here; not a talent or
who would win point. Using the correct word or words can be key working with
students. So,
I'm also just raising the question, "Is it worth while to recognize and separate the
difference between the half volley technique and the short hop situation"?

Have a link to vid of your amazing 5.5+ talent?
I did love to ck it out, thanks.

5263
01-06-2013, 07:08 AM
why are you guys are trying to reinvent, or rename, the half-volley?
surely tennis better served by teaching why it's important and how to do it.

Simply, No.

I'm just raising the question, "Is it worth while to recognize and separate the difference
between the half volley technique and the short hop situation in tennis terminology"?

5263
01-06-2013, 07:20 AM
Well here's what Merriam Webster has to say: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/half-volley

Your definition of "half volley" is reasonable, but if most people who hear the term immediately think "short hop" it's going to require some additional explanation when used your way. So it might be better to stick to common usage.

Maybe worth noting that the two terms are used the same way in soccer-- volley means kicking the ball before ground contact, half-volley means kicking it on the short hop. In both cases they fundamentally refer to situations, not techniques (though the situations may call for particular techniques).

I guess soccer got its terminology from tennis?
Excellent on topic post, but guess you and I had the advantage of our earlier
discussion :)

I don't think my OP was worded well enough for the speed readers coming thru.
Anyway, I agree that I found several references that agree with your point.
That is the main reason I started this thread. Personally I think it is worth
separating the technique from the situation in this case, although there are
other places like the volley where the name of the technique is also mostly
about the situation of taking the ball out of the air.
But even in the case of a normal volley, there are exceptions that require explaining,
like an overhead smash, which can be taken out of the air as well;
which can get confusing since you can have an overhead volley out of the
air as well that is not a smash. :???:

tennis_balla
01-06-2013, 07:37 AM
I don't know what our disconnect is here. Didn't I clearly agree that Fed's shot
off that short hop was clearly half volley technique?
I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

The question I posed is more about Delpo's full strokes off the short hops at the BL.
Those are not half volley technique and I wouldn't call them that; would you?
But they do fit the definition we find when we google it with many sources.

I'm also just raising the question, "Is it worth while to recognize and separate the
difference between the half volley technique and the short hop situation"?

I've never heard of the term short hop situation. Do you mean taking ball on the rise from baseline? Bit confused here sorry.

5263
01-06-2013, 07:47 AM
I've never heard of the term short hop situation. Do you mean taking ball on the rise from baseline? Bit confused here sorry.

The term is "short hop" which is a situation.

short hop is taking the ball quickly after the bounce, therefore keeping the
hop or bounce very short.

make more sense?

5263
01-06-2013, 07:48 AM
"short hop" is maybe always on the rise, but

"on the rise" is not always a short hop and usually isn't.

tennis_balla
01-06-2013, 07:55 AM
I've always heard it referred to as "taking the ball on the rise". Interesting.

5263
01-06-2013, 08:03 AM
I've always heard it referred to as "taking the ball on the rise". Interesting.

And imo, this makes it worthwhile to discuss these terms. Did you play any
baseball?

tennis_balla
01-06-2013, 08:12 AM
Nope, never played baseball besides in elementary school, phys ed.

5263
01-06-2013, 08:36 AM
I've always heard it referred to as "taking the ball on the rise". Interesting.

Nothing wrong with that.
Short hop is just more descriptive and a subset taking it on the rise.

Ash_Smith
01-06-2013, 08:58 AM
over here the "half volley" is a shot hit immediately after the bounce - always has been-always will! Like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo9ZLQMode0

Whether it is hit with groundstroke technique of volley technique (like Radek) in situational. Andre used to hit plenty of half-volleys from the baseline off his backhand and Radwanska does it loads today.

cheers

Ash_Smith
01-06-2013, 09:05 AM
combined with post above...

5263
01-06-2013, 09:07 AM
over here the "half volley" is a shot hit immediately after the bounce - always has-always will!

cheers

So you guys would call those full cuts by Delpo at the baseline which were
clearly short hopped....half volleys?

and always will? : )

Ash_Smith
01-06-2013, 09:20 AM
^^^dunno, havent seen them!? But if they're like those Agassi used to hit - then yes! We don't have the term "short-hop" over here (at least not that I have heard in 15 years of development and performance coaching), and nor did I hear it used in Spain. What are it's origins (if you are aware)???

5263
01-06-2013, 09:24 AM
^^^dunno, havent seen them!? But if they're like those Agassi used to hit - then yes! We don't have the term "short-hop" over here (at least not that I have heard in 15 years of development and performance coaching), and nor did I hear it used in Spain. What are it's origins (if you are aware)???

Likely baseball over here, but I can't say.

You guys probably call them on the rise at the BL, even though they were taken very low.
I can't imagine calling a full cut swing a half volley.

tennis_balla
01-06-2013, 09:38 AM
Who knows with those Brits, can't even drive on the right side of the road. Don't trust them!

Ash_Smith
01-06-2013, 09:39 AM
Likely baseball over here, but I can't say.

You guys probably call them on the rise at the BL, even though they were taken very low.
I can't imagine calling a full cut swing a half volley.

Ahhh, baseball - like Rounders, but not as good :D

"Half-volley" is hit immediately after the bounce, "on-the-rise" is generally a contact after the bounce but before the apex - still usually around waist height though.

Cheers

5263
01-06-2013, 09:42 AM
Ahhh, baseball - like Rounders, but not as good :D

"Half-volley" is hit immediately after the bounce, "on-the-rise" is generally a contact after the bounce but before the apex - still usually around waist height though.

Cheers

so no particular stroke then...just hit it anyway you want?

Sort of odd since the term reflects it could be a half like a stroke technique
called the volley.

So do you teach a variety of ways to handle such a ball with different strokes?

treblings
01-06-2013, 09:43 AM
so i can tell my students that when they are at the net they will likely face a no hop situation and can deal with it using a volley, smash, or ground stroke technique?
worth thinking about

Ash_Smith
01-06-2013, 09:58 AM
so no particular stroke then...just hit it anyway you want?

No idea what you mean by this?

Sort of odd since the term reflects it could be a half like a stroke technique
called the volley.

The term only reflects that if it is your reality - it is not the reality I have been brought up coaching in and as such I would never assume it to mean a "half-stroke".

So do you teach a variety of ways to handle such a ball with different strokes?

No, I guide my players to discover different ways of dealing with those situations :D



.......................

5263
01-06-2013, 10:03 AM
.......................

Thats good, and why I started this thread. Just curious how people see this.
Just seemed to me that since the term contained volley and the stroke technique
I learned best for this, sort of was much like a volley...
Thanks for your perspective here

J011yroger
01-06-2013, 10:35 AM
In days past when players spent time between the baseline, and the net the half volley was a legitimate stroke which was drilled, taught and practiced because it was often used in matches.

The way tennis is taught now the only reason a player would have to hit a half volley is because something went wrong, which is why it is seen as more as an improvised thing now.

I see it with kids all the time these days.

Jolly: "Did anyone every teach you how to hit a half volley?"

Kid: *Blank stare*

Where players of old would hit a half volley and come in, younger players just stay back and hit a groundstroke.

J

Avles
01-06-2013, 10:56 AM
Just to take this thread further into pedantry, it turns out that the first recorded use of "half-volley" (in 1843) was in reference to cricket (a ball bouncing just reaching before the batsman or fieldsman) So it's possible that both tennis and soccer adopted the term from cricket.

On the other hand the term "volley" goes back to Real Tennis (first recorded use 1596). But it originally referred to the flight of the incoming ball, not the stroke used to hit it (Shots were hit "at the volley" meaning "on the fly.") It appears that the use of "volley" to describe the shot itself comes from the 19th century.

Short hop probably is a baseball term, that's where I've heard it. It was the best equivalent I could think of for the half-volley situation.

rkelley
01-06-2013, 12:10 PM
Isn't the "half volley", a stroke technique? Or is it situation based?
Thats how I learned it and this technique was normally used for balls when the
player needed to make the shot quickly after the bounce and sometimes on the
rise further from the deck.

This writer below seems to think the half volley is situation and that the name
is not very descriptive of the shot.
Subtle issue, but curious what some of you thought.

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/the-911-shot-of-tennis-the-half-volley

I disagree with most of this article, and especially since I think the name is very
properly descriptive of this "stoke".
Imo the Half volley is mostly a volley that has been lengthened just a bit to
provide some power and control, much like you would do on a volley when the
ball comes slowly to be volleyed and you want to add power to the volley
since the ball was coming so slow.

I didn't have a big problem with the article. I agree that it's not a stroke I want to be hitting a lot. OTHO if you're coming forward it's a stroke you're going to hit some times. You can't be afraid to hit it. Personally if I'm hitting a lot of half volleys then I take that to mean something's wrong. I'm coming in on the wrong shots, not doing enough with my serve, something.

Technique-wise it's a mix. I hit the shot with a continental grip on either side and always one handed, so it's more like a volley. But the stroke mechanics is more like a very shorten ground stroke.

rkelley
01-06-2013, 12:11 PM
Lets take your vocabulary and mincing words against my natural talent and HARD WORK AND FUN and see who comes out on top, are you joking? "Well a half drop blah side spin", are you joking?

If you have to think about it that hard you can't play, and if you think you can come play me, even in horrible shape I've DESTROYED 5.5 players, would have Justin Bower, just PLAY ALL, DON'T LISTEN TO THIS NONSENSE.

Mick, you seem like a nice guy. You obviously care about your son. I'd encourage you to reread your post.

5263
01-06-2013, 04:15 PM
Just to take this thread further into pedantry, it turns out that the first recorded use of "half-volley" (in 1843) was in reference to cricket (a ball bouncing just reaching before the batsman or fieldsman) So it's possible that both tennis and soccer adopted the term from cricket.

On the other hand the term "volley" goes back to Real Tennis (first recorded use 1596). But it originally referred to the flight of the incoming ball, not the stroke used to hit it (Shots were hit "at the volley" meaning "on the fly.") It appears that the use of "volley" to describe the shot itself comes from the 19th century.

Short hop probably is a baseball term, that's where I've heard it. It was the best equivalent I could think of for the half-volley situation.

Thanks Avles, interesting info.

TennisCJC
01-06-2013, 05:31 PM
I thought the article had a few insights like players not wanting to hit half volleys but I did not find it really helpful. It described a half volley and stated they are pretty much a pain in the asse, but no real instruction.

If I am at the baseline, I play half-volleys off the short hop - bend the knees to get the hands down to the ball. Small backswing, a bit of top on the FH and a bit of slice on the BH, with a full follow-thru.

If I am in volley position or moving to volley position, I play it with nearly no backswing and a bit of follow thru. Amost always slice BH, FH will be either a touch of slice or a rather flat pick-up with maybe a touch of top.

luvforty
01-06-2013, 05:43 PM
5263 -

half-volley is the most important shot in tennis..... prove me wrong.

5263
01-06-2013, 08:18 PM
Looks like in the end, the players, coaches, and references seem to mostly
side with the half volley being any ball that is short hopped right off the deck,
pretty much regardless of how the stroke looks.
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but it is what it is.
Thanks for the replies and references :)

J011yroger
01-07-2013, 01:48 AM
Looks like in the end, the players, coaches, and references seem to mostly
side with the half volley being any ball that is short hopped right off the deck,
pretty much regardless of how the stroke looks.
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but it is what it is.
Thanks for the replies and references :)

Just because almost everyone says or thinks something, doesn't make it right.

J

tennis_balla
01-07-2013, 03:16 AM
5263 -

half-volley is the most important shot in tennis..... prove me wrong.

Prove that statement right...

treblings
01-07-2013, 03:29 AM
i can play the half volley with different techniques depending mostly on where on the court i play it. for me itīs mainly an improvised shot.
near the net i will probably have prepared for a volley, so i will likely use a conti grip and change the angle of the racquethead to play the ball.
at or near the baseline i will probably have prepared for a groundstroke with the appropriate grip, so i will play more or less a groundstroke.
now of course you can call what i know as half volley a short hop.
and then find alternate names for the technique you use.

i just donīt see the advantage for my players, but iīm open to good arguments

5263
01-07-2013, 06:01 AM
Prove that statement right...

He's just popping off again. That is about the 4th shot he has stated as the
most important, maybe 5th.
It's just important to him that people think the Fh is not the most important
shot it seems.

5263
01-07-2013, 06:03 AM
Just because almost everyone says or thinks something, doesn't make it right.

J

I agree very much with you here in a sense, but I suppose people give words
their meaning, even if it does not follow a useful logic.

luvforty
01-07-2013, 06:12 AM
He's just popping off again. That is about the 4th shot he has stated as the
most important, maybe 5th.
It's just important to him that people think the Fh is not the most important
shot it seems.

lol 5263 - you are still not getting it :)

5263
01-07-2013, 06:25 AM
lol 5263 - you are still not getting it :)

right, and as you can see above Balla, and Ash on the other page don't
either...2 of the best coaches we have on here.
You are a new guy on here and you will find your way with some time or
like most fade away after awhile. Either way, we as a group are used to
both.

luvforty
01-07-2013, 06:29 AM
how do you know balla and ash not getting it?

sureshs
01-07-2013, 06:33 AM
I really don't "hit" a half-volley. It happens by instinct when the ball is too close to the feet.

tennis_balla
01-07-2013, 07:05 AM
how do you know balla and ash not getting it?

...because the 'tweener is the most important shot in tennis!

luvforty
01-07-2013, 07:14 AM
...because the 'tweener is the most important shot in tennis!

see - you got it !

Ash_Smith
01-07-2013, 10:31 AM
...because the 'tweener is the most important shot in tennis!

yes, but is the "tweener" a shot or is it a "hotdog" :D

tennis_balla
01-07-2013, 01:58 PM
yes, but is the "tweener" a shot or is it a "hotdog" :D

Ooh, that's difficult to answer. I mean ask someone like Bahrami and he'll insist its a legitimate shot.