Question on pro's contact point on serve

[lkdog]

This is a follow up to a previous thread.

Question:

How in the heck do the pros get so far into the court on the hit and land two feet inside the court? When I try to move my toss further into the court, my upper body seems to lose it's upward movement and I go more out (and lose that explosion "up" feeling). How do they keep that upward element while still going so far out?

Right now with the help of some good advice on this board, I am finally bending my knees and jumping up and into the serve, but I am landing only just barely across the service line with my front (left) foot.

Thanks.

[Rickson]

This is a follow up to a previous thread.

Question:

How in the heck do the pros get so far into the court on the hit and land two feet inside the court? When I try to move my toss further into the court, my upper body seems to lose it's upward movement and I go more out (and lose that explosion "up" feeling). How do they keep that upward element while still going so far out?

Right now with the help of some good advice on this board, I am finally bending my knees and jumping up and into the serve, but I am landing only just barely across the service line with my front (left) foot.

Thanks.
If you land barely past the service line, you have one hell of a longjump on your serve.

[lkdog]

Hahaha!
I just realized I mis-spoke.
I meant the baseline of course :)

I get to the service line after a serve about once a week.
As a long time couterpuncher/baseliner I think I served and volleyed about ten times all summer in singles matches :)

[takeuchi]

possibly because pros have consistent tosses, good balance, good coiling, and good timing. I find that the further i go out, the less height i get off the ground. I usually have to throw further out if i want to coil more because my left hip will move out into the court. However by doing this i believe i am getting more pace and more spin on my serves. Feels very explosive too. I think it may take some practice to get used to it.

[All Court]

Well, it's different for some, but you usually see the pros that seem to explode so far into the court off the serve with a platform stance. Reason being their weight is all forward. Also, they are meeting the ball out in front. It's harder to move into the court faster with big topspin serves because the contact point is above or slightly behind you, not in front. Slices and flat serves are preferred. Topspin can be adapted, but you'll still have to meet the ball in front of you.

Of the people I've seen, Edberg had HUGE movement into the court just off his serve. Also, you want to swing all the way through the ball and let the momentum of the swing carry you through, too, not just the knee bend.

If you're aiming for lots of forward movement off the serve instead of exploding upward, are you planning on S&Ving? If you are, once again, watch Edberg. Also, in Patrick Rafter's case, he had a MONSTER kick serve (he didn't meet the ball in back of him too much, and his speed helped him muchly, he was amazing) and good movement off the first serve, too. While not as far into the court as Edberg, Rafter was extremely fast and was able to close into the net and angle off volleys immediately.

[lkdog]

Thanks guys.

Yes, I would like to serve and volley more as you mention, but I want to make sure I am getting as much pace from forward momentum also. I am not a small player ( a fairly athletic 5'11" 200lbs) and should be able to use my strength and weight to better advantage. As I have hit the 45's I am also looking to shorten the points more and develop more of an attacking game instead of my usual retreiver baseline game.

I guess I am amazed when I look at videos of many pros.

Their landing point of their front (left) foot is well into the court (typically 18-24" it seems) which has to add 10-20 mph to a serve whether it is a topspin (all of mine are topspin either more or less), or a slice.

I agree that going further out seems to flatten out the thrust upward and outward. I read somewhere that the optimum body angle into the court for hitting the serve was 48 degrees.

Was just wondering how they developed that over time (besides being world class athletes) :)

[All Court]

You mean your entire body slanted forward at 48 degrees? Impossible.

Or do you mean making contact at 48 degrees? I guess that's fine. The angle actually seemed a little too much at first, but I just tried it and it was actually natural, where I hit my own serves at already.

Don't think about 48 degrees though when you're serving. Just think to make it as out in front as possible (1 to 2 o clock on the clock face, 2 if you want some slice, slice serves are great S&V serves) while still comfortable for you.

Hitting in front means less stress on shoulder and optimum energy transfer into the ball, not to mention the forward momentum you're looking for here.

Also, for you, pretend you're going to S&V after every serve. So you want to direct your momentum forward and go through it. Even if you want to stay back, that'll help your serve, and if you think of trying to move forward yourself (it should become natural) then you'll move into the court more, too, and the steps right after the serve should become more natural.

Just focus on directing momentum forward and hitting out in front. Post results.

[Marius_Hancu]

the question is really about how to maintain dynamical balance when tossing deep into the court

Check Sampras in action:
http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal...s/sampras02.swf
(use the slider on the left to slow-motion)

and you will realize that right before springing up, while the hips and the left shoulder are into the court, the large mass of the quads, the knees and the toes are pointing to a large extent towards the back of the court (this is why he pivots his left foot on his heel, with the toe in the air, at the beginning of the rocking motion, for the toe to point less towards the line)

he really is in a corkscrew-like stance with considerable potential energy stored in the segments of his body, only to be triggered to be transformed into kynetic energy during the "waterfall" (as Bungalo Bill calls it)

thus he keeps his body in a controlled and short/precarious dynamical balance across the line, which is destabilized by his attack to the ball, at the end of his rocking motion/weight transfer motion (check the Sticky for my posting on Serve Power and Placement)

if you look at the pinpoint stance, say Hewitt, you will see how his right knee is separated from the left one, and points heavily towards the back of the court, for the same reason of keeping balance during that critical interval

in simple words, you must keep part of your body weight behind the line (for a short time), while the other gets over the line

[FiveO]

IMO that depth past the baseline achieved by professional players and even better NTRP level players is a direct result of the forward hip stretch and a natural knee bend achieved in the trophy position or pre-launch and the resulting snap up and forward, to a straight body alignment at contact as the entire body uncoils in sequence from that loaded position.

In the pre-launch phase, with the front hip stretch the body is bowed like a vaulter's pole with the plant point of the pole being the forward (non-hitting side foot). As the body reaches its fully bowed position the toss side hip slides forward of the baseline and forward of the toss side knee. A "C-like" position is achieved, anchored on the court surface at toss side foot, with the upper body lagging behind the hips, the shoulders angled upward toward the tossed ball and the forward hip being furthest forward toward the net. Uncoiling to contact from the pre-launch, should drive the body up and forward toward the contact point and at the same time the body is also regaining its straight pre-load alignment. The body snaps to straight line like a vaulters pole regains its original shape, but the snap pivots from the hips which are displaced forward, past the baseline and into the court by several inches. At the same time the impetus of the sequenced release of the stored nrg (kinetic chain) lifts the anchor point, the feet, from the court surface. The straightening of the body now occurs forward of the baseline where the forward hip should be, as the upper body catches up. That pre-launch shift of the hips forward, the impetus of the kinetic chain being targeted up and forward toward the ball which would be tossed 12" or more forward of the baseline on a typical first serve should result in the forward foot landing 18" or more forward of the baseline.

[lkdog]

Hey, great technical insights by everybody.
This is very informative.
Off to the court to hit a few hoppers.
Thanks.

[Mahboob Khan]

-- Do not toss the ball too far in front in the court. Just about a foot in front would be ok.

-- In order to explode into the hit you ought to bend your knees and arch your back a bit;

-- As you make contact, the left leg goes forward and the right leg kicks backward (leg drive). If this is done right, you will find yourself several feet inside the court!

[lkdog]

Making some progress.
Hit several serves tonight where my left foot landed deeper into the court than before (my heel was now 4-6" inside) wheras before it was landing on the baseline or barely over.
Better yet, some serves were sticking in the fence on one bounce-always a good sign :)

Anyway-I broke my strings after about 25 balls so was just getting going.
Pretty new string job, too so that could be another good sign:)
I kind of am starting to understand the dynamic balance thing, or the bending/bowing and then exploding.
There is a point on a good motion where I feel myself storing up energy to unleash into the shot. On some others, not so smooth and the motion breaks down.

One thing I definitely realized-I am a two feet (both feet) jumper.
My back foot is sliding up a bit toward a pinpoint and then I am bending my knees and going up using both feet to push off-not just the front.
Before I was staying in the platform and not getting much of a kneebend at all, and definitely was not jumping into the court(just stepping in from the follow through with my back foot).

Will keep at this.