Verifying differenent types of serve's name

[Kyo.Phan]

I've been confused about this for a while, so if you guys could help, it would be appriciated.

Is kick serve the same as topspin serve, and twiste serve?

And is there such thing as a topspin slice serve?

:confused:

[Maledizione]

A kick serve is a general name for a serve, which has a lot of topspin so the ball clears the net by a good margin, drops into the court steeply, and then kicks/launches forward towards you.

The 2 general types of kickserves are topspin serves and twist serves.

The topspin serve as the name implies is a straight topspin serve that does the above.

The twist serve behaves like the topspin serve as well, but due to the way the ball is struck, the ball curves in one direction in the air and in the opposite direction after the bounce.
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A slice serve due to the way it's hit, curves in the air in one direction, and increases curve in the same direction after bounce.

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Yes there is such a thing as a topspin slice serve. Simply put you add topspin motion to the slice motion.

[Kyo.Phan]

Thanks for the reply. I have one more question

Would a topspin slice be a twist? Or would it bounce high and to the left for a right hand server.(from the server's point of view)

[Maledizione]

No a topspin slice serve is not a twist serve. It will as you say bounce high and to the left (from server's perspective).

[nViATi]

No a topspin slice serve is not a twist serve. It will as you say bounce high and to the left (from server's perspective).
it's the same thing

[Maledizione]

A topspin slice serve is not the same thing as a twist serve. It is much easier to execute a topspin slice serve properly than a twist serve, (and a pure slice serve) IMO.

The ball is struck differently, and unless you're more advanced and can disguise serve, the toss is different as well.

For the pure slice serve, it's like you 'cut' the ball on the right side. Technically, it's hitting horizontally towards 3 o'clock on the ball. (The clock analogies don't really work for me)

Topspin slice serve is like 'cutting' the upper-right quadrant of the ball.
Technically from center to 2 o'clock or thereabouts.

With the twist serve, it's like you hit from underneath the ball. I still can't do this properly so I can't really talk about it, but I can hit a topspin slice serve and I have seen twist serves and they are 2 different things.

[Kyo.Phan]

Hm 2 different answers...can a 3rd person clarrify this

[Koaske]

Topspin-slice and Twist serve are different serves.
http://tennis.about.com/library/media/serve-twist.WMV
http://tennis.about.com/library/media/serve-ts-slice.WMV
It's a bit unclear, but at least you can see that the tosses are different in these two serves.
I think the term Kick serve's meaning varies a bit.
Some say that both topspin and twist are kick serves and some say that only the twist serve is the same as kick serve.

[Bungalo Bill]

it's the same thing

The Topspin slice serve is not the same as the twist serve. Each name for a serve is given for a reason. It does what it does. The twist will be executed differently and the spin will be slightly different then a topspin slice serve.

[kevhen]

They are different, you have flat, slice (also reverse slice), topspin-slice, topspin, and the very cool twist serve as well as underhanded or other dropshot serves. Each type of serve has it's usefulness.

[mucat]

Assume righthanded,

Topspin slice serve- ball will curve to the right (receiver's) in the air, it will continue to go to the right after the bounce.

Twist serve- ball will curve to the right in the air, then it will go to the left after the bounce.

Both serve will have the charactistic of topspin serve, dip down fast before the bounce and appear to jump up and forward after the bounce.

What confuse me is, most sites or articles I read, kick serve is the equivalent of twist serve. I think kick serve, twist serve was the same serve, but the name was confusing, so people are starting to use it to describe different serves.

[Kyo.Phan]

I'm having a hard time picturing it. The twist serve is spinning from about 8 oclock to 2 oclock right? How bout a slice? Wouldn't that be the same thing?

[kevhen]

The twist is simlar to the slice but is at just the right angle like around 7-1 and at just the right pace that the surface and the ball grip each other and the ball spins off to the server's right instead of skidding and slicing left. It's a combination of the right angle, the right speed, and the right spin. I rarely can get mine to kick right but some can do it consistently.

If you hit 8-2 the ball is going to curve left more and then skid left. That is a slice serve. Typical topspin in more 6-12 with a straight high kick.

[nViATi]

The Topspin slice serve is not the same as the twist serve. Each name for a serve is given for a reason. It does what it does. The twist will be executed differently and the spin will be slightly different then a topspin slice serve.
really? what is the difference? i thought they were both just a combination of topspin and sidespin

[rfederer32291]

The Topspin slice serve is not the same as the twist serve. Each name for a serve is given for a reason. It does what it does. The twist will be executed differently and the spin will be slightly different then a topspin slice serve.
i didnt know that either, clarify it some more please.

[Maledizione]

The slice serve is not a kicker. Someone above said it is hit from 8 - 2 or 7 - 1 or something like that, but in my experience it is hit from the center to 1,2 or 3o'clock (depending on how much sidespin versus topspin you want).
(Check Monica Seles for extreme slice action on serve)


Hitting from 6, 7, 8 o'clock (underneath the ball) gives rise to the kick motion. It's similar to hitting a forehand with heavy topspin.
The swingpath will be the topspin or twist determinant.

[mucat]

I think using the clock face for swingpath is not good enough sometimes. It is more accurate to describe the spin with axis of rotation. For example, a pure slice serve will have the axis of rotation, from the ground and pointing straight upward. For Topspin serve, the axis of rotation will be left side to the right side of the ball parallel to the ground. So a topspin slice serve is a combination of those two axis.

As for twist serve, I believe the axis is parallel to the ground but diagonal from right of server side to the left of returner side like this ' \ ' (bottom is the server side). I could be wrong on this, but that's how I feel I was hitting the ball when I hit a twist serve. That's how it creates the slice-like curve in the air, but jump to the left after the bounce.

We need some people who understand ball spin and flightpath physics. Baseball people should know something about this.

[Slice Approach]

My understanding on this as the definitions may have changed over time...a kick serve and twist serve are both topspin serves; the difference being how they behave when they hit the court. If you are the receiver in the add court, a topspin serve hit to your backhand will kick straight up (depending on how much spin vs pace is on the ball). A twist serve to your backhand will kick left toward the doubles alley.
I use a topspin slice sometimes as a change-up with the twist serve. For me, the ball toss and service motion are similar but it doesn't kick hard left (from the receiver's perspective) like a twist. Like Maledizione said, topspin and twist serves can be analagous to a heavy topspin forehand. A twist serve is like a sharply-angled crosscourt topspin forehand (right hander) hit to the outside edge of the service box on the deuce side.

[Bungalo Bill]

The slice serve is not a kicker. Someone above said it is hit from 8 - 2 or 7 - 1 or something like that, but in my experience it is hit from the center to 1,2 or 3o'clock (depending on how much sidespin versus topspin you want).
(Check Monica Seles for extreme slice action on serve)


Hitting from 6, 7, 8 o'clock (underneath the ball) gives rise to the kick motion. It's similar to hitting a forehand with heavy topspin.
The swingpath will be the topspin or twist determinant.

Yes, 7-1 is a twist serve for lefties. Or 4 - 11 for righties. The slice serve is usually made at the 2 o'clock position.

[kevhen]

Can we get some good video footage of a twist serve and see if it's 7-1 or 5-11? I am open to it being either as I have hit both angles and occasionally gotten some twist kick but not consistently. I would like to practice it but would like to know the proper technique of what I should be doing first whether it's 7-1 or 5-11.

[Bungalo Bill]

Can we get some good video footage of a twist serve and see if it's 7-1 or 5-11? I am open to it being either as I have hit both angles and occasionally gotten some twist kick but not consistently. I would like to practice it but would like to know the proper technique of what I should be doing first whether it's 7-1 or 5-11.

Kevhen,

It has always been the 7-1, 8-2 for righties and the 5-11, 4-10 for lefties. The twist serve has been around for a long long time and it is how it is hit and taught.

If you can't do it but others can (such as I), it usually is a user error not an instructional error!

If you are trying to hit BOTH angles you're lost on how to hit a twist serve. The toss location is key to allow the 5-11 or 4-10 swing path for righties to produce the twist.

A past article in Tennis Magazine (I think February through March) was perhaps the best step-by-step analysis on how to hit a twist serve.

Dig it up and go practice it but don't do weird things and think the instruction must be wrong if YOU can't do it. It takes practice and patience.

[Kyo.Phan]

Are you sure it's 5-11 for a right hander? I always thought it was 7-11. and 5-11 for left.

[mucat]

Bungalo Bill, 4 - 10 for righties would mean a right to left swing motion around contact time with the ball. I just learnt the twist this year, but my swingpath is fromt the left and finish to the right pointing down. And my hitting partner commented on the slice curve in the air and the opposite jump after the bounce, so I should be doing it right. Also, I visualize a 4-10 spin will have a slice bounce, which bounce to the returner's right.

Or are you talking about 4-10 from the returner's point of view?

[Bungalo Bill]

Bungalo Bill, 4 - 10 for righties would mean a right to left swing motion around contact time with the ball. I just learnt the twist this year, but my swingpath is fromt the left and finish to the right pointing down. And my hitting partner commented on the slice curve in the air and the opposite jump after the bounce, so I should be doing it right. Also, I visualize a 4-10 spin will have a slice bounce, which bounce to the returner's right.

Or are you talking about 4-10 from the returner's point of view?

double post

[Bungalo Bill]

Bungalo Bill, 4 - 10 for righties would mean a right to left swing motion around contact time with the ball. I just learnt the twist this year, but my swingpath is fromt the left and finish to the right pointing down. And my hitting partner commented on the slice curve in the air and the opposite jump after the bounce, so I should be doing it right. Also, I visualize a 4-10 spin will have a slice bounce, which bounce to the returner's right.

Or are you talking about 4-10 from the returner's point of view?

LOL, you are right! I got them backwards. Thanks! lefties (I am a lefty and should know!) hit the twist 4-10 or 5-11, righties hit the twist 7-1 or 8-2.

Now I am getting "twisted".

[Bungalo Bill]

Are you sure it's 5-11 for a right hander? I always thought it was 7-11. and 5-11 for left.

Sorry, I corrected my post. Sometimes Kevhen gives me a headache with his "responses".

[kevhen]

Dude, you're the one making all the typing errors and I am just trying to clarify what your are saying since like in this case you posted bogus information. I try to hit my twist kick 7-1 and get a little movement but not much and will keep working on it. It may work better from 7:30-1:30 but I think 8-2 it becomes too much of a slice. Good luck to all working on their twist kick. It's the trickiest serve to perfect in my opinion.

[mucat]

kevhen, I use eastern BH grip, when I hit the ball, I visualize swing from left to right contact around the upper area of the ball, I know I might not actually hit the top of the ball, but the visualization help me to keep the ball down. When I want more power and/or topspin, I swing forward more.

[Bungalo Bill]

Dude, you're the one making all the typing errors and I am just trying to clarify what your are saying since like in this case you posted bogus information. I try to hit my twist kick 7-1 and get a little movement but not much and will keep working on it. It may work better from 7:30-1:30 but I think 8-2 it becomes too much of a slice. Good luck to all working on their twist kick. It's the trickiest serve to perfect in my opinion.

Geee, sorry Kevhen. I made a mistake. I didnt post "bogus" information as other posters were just kind enough to point out my mistake.

Plus, werent you the one that said you tried BOTH angles? The twist is only hit from ONE angle for a righty and another angle for a lefty. Geez, Kevhen come on.

It isn't a tricky serve Kevhen. If you toss properly and hit it properly, the twist will happen. You simply have to hit is slowly at first to develop your "muscle memory".

It doesnt "work" better from 7:31am to 1:32pm or 8:02pm to 2:14am! It is the same thing! Get with it!

[Bungalo Bill]

Dude, you're the one making all the typing errors and I am just trying to clarify what your are saying since like in this case you posted bogus information. I try to hit my twist kick 7-1 and get a little movement but not much and will keep working on it. It may work better from 7:30-1:30 but I think 8-2 it becomes too much of a slice. Good luck to all working on their twist kick. It's the trickiest serve to perfect in my opinion.

Geee, sorry Kevhen. I made a mistake. I didnt post "bogus" information. The information was there it is just that other posters were kind enough to point out my mistake or were confused because I typed too fast.

Plus, werent you the one that said you tried BOTH angles? The twist is only hit from ONE angle for a righty and another angle for a lefty. LOL

It isn't a tricky serve Kevhen. If you toss properly and hit it properly, the twist will happen. You simply have to hit it slowly at first to develop your "muscle memory".

Additionally, it doesnt "work" better from 7:31am to 1:32pm or 8:02pm to 2:14am! LOL, it is the same thing! It is a "direction" you are brushing the racket face against the ball with!

[All Court]

The twist is simlar to the slice but is at just the right angle like around 7-1 and at just the right pace that the surface and the ball grip each other and the ball spins off to the server's right instead of skidding and slicing left. It's a combination of the right angle, the right speed, and the right spin. I rarely can get mine to kick right but some can do it consistently.

If you hit 8-2 the ball is going to curve left more and then skid left. That is a slice serve. Typical topspin in more 6-12 with a straight high kick.

Wrong. It doesn't have to be at a certain pace you hit the ball, and only in ideal situations.

It's the swing path. The slice toss is out in front. The twist toss is behind your head and to the left. Because of that, your racquet hits the ball differently.

Thinking it's only one combination is useless. That would mean that the ball twists the exact same amount every time, which is obviously untrue.

Just clearing things up.

[Bungalo Bill]

Wrong. It doesn't have to be at a certain pace you hit the ball, and only in ideal situations.

It's the swing path. The slice toss is out in front. The twist toss is behind your head and to the left. Because of that, your racquet hits the ball differently.

Thinking it's only one combination is useless. That would mean that the ball twists the exact same amount every time, which is obviously untrue.

Just clearing things up.

Yes, the slice is more outward and hits the "side" of the ball at around the 2 o'clock area and the racket finishes on the opposite side of the body. The swing path is not going from 7-1 or for lefties 5-11 or thereof like the necessary racket path for the twist serve.

The twist serve can brush the middle of the ball so long as the brushing motion is going in a 7-1 or 8-2 direction with the racket finishing on the SAME side of the body.